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Posted by modernww2fare (7122 posts) 2 years, 24 days ago

Poll: Who was worse - Hitler, Stalin or Mao? (171 votes)

Adolf Hitler 37%
Joseph Stalin 36%
Mao Zedong 27%
No Caption Provided

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#51 Posted by FearSinestro (251 posts) - - Show Bio

All of them were pieces of shit

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#52 Posted by Rubear (4651 posts) - - Show Bio

@lillion1 said:

At least Hitler killed the Jews out of misguidedness.

Stalin killed far more Civilians than Hitler ever did and he never really had a reason for it except being a paranoid asshole

Population of USSR before Stalin in 26 - 148,656,000.
Population of USSR before taking any territories in 39 - 168,524,000.
Population of USSR after taking back territory from Finland, Poland and Co and before World War in 41 - 196,716,000.
Population of USSR after World War in 46 - 170,548,000.
Population of USSR in 51 two years before death of Stalin - 182,321,000.
Now tell me where you can find demographic pit and why.
Oh, and Hitler killed a lot more people then only jews. "Misguidedness", my ass...

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#53 Posted by Xerolot (2990 posts) - - Show Bio

@rubear: I never did. I'm taking actualy historical facts but I see that it's better for you to insult people than talk about it. I'm not telling that Adolf is saint or he was good person. But we can say for sure that he wanted the Germany and German people to be rich and in good condition. If you think that deaths of 49-78 milions of people under Mao leadership (almost as much as entire world war, all civilians) or Stalin who was murdering everybody who was intelligent (high school etc) is not more evil than I don't know what to say. He killed over 50 milion people. Mostly his own man. Adolf caused war because Germany needed money to maintain new army and rebuild Germany after First World War. Stalin and Mao caused destruction in their own lands just because they wanted to be leaders and tyrants. To have power. Comunism is one of the worst system ever created. Even now in the North Korea we can see it's results. Both Mao and Stalin were communistic leaders. More information about this you can read in historical books, at least in those that are not filled by propaganda. This is all what I have to say, you don't need to respond. For sure I'll not.

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#54 Edited by Rubear (4651 posts) - - Show Bio

@xerolot said:

@rubear: He killed over 50 milion people. Mostly his own man.

To put it simply, humie, you're decieved. By historical books filled with Cold War propaganda. Now here are facts.

Population of USSR before Stalin in 26 - 148,656,000.
Population of USSR before taking any territories in 39 - 168,524,000.
Population of USSR after taking back territory from Finland, Poland and Co and before World War in 41 - 196,716,000.
Population of USSR after World War in 46 - 170,548,000.
Population of USSR in 51 two years before death of Stalin - 182,321,000.

Now where are "over 50 million people killed, mostly his own men"?

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#55 Edited by HeroUp2112 (18328 posts) - - Show Bio

I guess it depends on how you mean "worst". If we're talking about most people murdered/killed then Mao takes the cake. He killed more people than Hitler and Stalin combined.

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#56 Posted by anakon4 (438 posts) - - Show Bio

@anakon4: Willingly? Lmao. Nobody had even a basic understanding of what germs were back then. Keep blaming everything on the evil white boogeyman. http://www.pbs.org/gunsgermssteel/variables/smallpox.html. You're wrong. 90% were killed from diseases. The propaganda about hunger, massacres, slavery, torturing (lmao, really?) PALED in comparison to what MOSTLY and OVERWHELMINGLY caused them to die out. Having such a warped and biased view about all white people must allow you to lead such a happy life.

People in 16th century already knew that diseases exist and in 17th century they already know who spreads them (in those two centuries most natives died). Torturing is lmao? Only the worst people came to America (criminals, low life) and they pushed every inhabitant to the western part of the land. It was also legal to shoot natives until the end of 19th century WITHOUT punishment. Torturing was done primarily to gain intel about the where the treasures were hidden. Spanish knew, that natives hid over 90% of their gold somewhere.

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#57 Edited by lillion1 (149 posts) - - Show Bio

@xerolot

I hope you understand that about 30 million Soviet soldiers were killed during the war against the Nazi's? And again, current calculation are about 8 million people dead because of his policies (civilians), not counting people that died during ww2 (soldiers). This are not estimations like those made (with a dosis of propaganda) by Nato countries during the Cold War. These are the numbers calculated by historians after the fall of the Soviet Union and the release of previously restricted documents. So it is safe to say these are correct and the numbers told during the cold war (and still by some countries which uphold the policies they had during the cold war) were bullcrap.

Hitler killed about 11 million civilians.

Mao killed from 48 to 80 million civilians.

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@rubear

Sorry I appologize. I fixed the Stalin part, kinda screwed up my numbers there. If you reread my post you will find more information with lots of things fixed now and this time I used sources. I wanted to say Mao but the beer got me. When I drink my texts kinda lose all semblance of structure.

Again Stalin killed around 8 million civilians. 5 million of these were during the famine (far less killed this way than during the famine Mao created). Of those 5 million 3.3 million were deliberate. 3 million were killed because they considered as enemies by Stalin.

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#58 Edited by HeroUp2112 (18328 posts) - - Show Bio

WOW, some of the statements here amaze me.

Yeah I said Mao was the "worst" based on the number of people that were killed (more or less under his dictates) under his regime, but "Hitler was only trying to boost his nation's economy" Hitler was an evil, scumbag, murdering, racist...period. Even in the last days in The Bunker he was blaming everything on the Jews and laying out (granted illusionary) plans for further killing them. Anyone trying to even SLIGHTLY excuse Hitler needs to do some more research folks. His goal was nothing less than the extermination of an entire people for no other reason that he didn't like them for whatever reason.

The the number for deaths during the "Stalinist Purges" is around 20,000,000. (I've researched this from 11 sources and this is the most consistent number I've been able to find...some have proposed a fairly laughable 50,000,000 with some VERY loose arguments for this figure). The breakdown is pretty much this: Number of straight up executions between 1936-1938: about 1,000,000, from 1936-1950: in the Gulags (work/prison camps) 12,00,000, and another 3,500,000 died in the 1930-1936 collectivization. Again, these are the hard, agreed upon facts I've been able to nail down, not the propaganda figures that float all over the place. Except perhaps for the Collectivism (which, if you squint at it juuuusssst right, could be seen to have a purpose other than bloody minded political maneuvering or just outright paranoia on Stalin's part), the first two figures show nothing more than the traits of a different sort, but no less evil, than Hitler.

What can I say about Mao though? As far as number and evil go...he makes those two freaks look like choir boys.

As for those who colonized and formed the America's...let's remember the United States weren't the only people colonizing North America by the way...I'm the LAST person to try to gloss over the crimes of our past, but I'm also a big believer in facts, not propaganda.

While the colonists were aware of diseases, by NO means did they have any understanding of the immune system, or that the Native Americans would have been any more susceptible to the diseases of Europe than the Europeans themselves. In fact, the notion of immunology (in the form of immunizations) not only didn't arrive until 1796...pioneered by a doctor named Edward Jenner...but he was ridiculed for the very IDEA of trying to immunize people with a weakened strained of a disease (IIRC I think the first one he tried...and succeeded with...was cow pox...I'd have to look it up though).

Did the white man screw over the Native Americans...sadly, and I hate to have to say it...yes. Did we try to implement some sort of pro-biological warfare on them? Sorry, just didn't happen.

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#59 Posted by Noone1996 (11857 posts) - - Show Bio

@anakon4: No they didn't. They had no idea what germs were or how they spread or anything like that. Why do you think so many people died in the Civil War? Over 400,000 died from disease and injury because they had no clue how to handle wounds. They'd amputate people and use the same saw without sterilizing it. People would step in excrement and then use their food cutting knife to trim their toe nails. They had no idea about the dangers of germs or anything like that and I dare you to prove otherwise. The idea that the Europeans used biological warfare for hundreds of years to systematically wipe out, yes NINETY PERCENT, of the Native Americans is just ludicrous. You are giving the crafty, sinister, and malevolent white man too much credit. Were many racist and hate the Native Americans? Of course, but did they commit mass genocide on a scale like Hitler, Mao, or Stalin? Absolutely not. It was from unintentional germs being spread. I was only laughing at the torture thing because you squeezed that in there with hunger and war as if torture was such a common and big killer of Native Americans lmao. I'm not laughing at the fact that it happened, but I doubt even 0.000001% of the Native American population was taken out by "torture" xD. Like the Americans had nothing better to do than just go into a village and tie Native Americans to a tree and just poke them with metal objects one by one all day long until they died. I'm not going to get into the unfairness, racism, and anecdotal instances. I'm just correcting and informing you that 90% died from disease only. Saying that Americans/colonists are on par with some of the worst dictators in the 20th century is a flat out lie.

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#60 Posted by Rubear (4651 posts) - - Show Bio

@lillion1: Comrade... See, here is one problem. Like big as hiding in closet elephant problem.
If one version of events turned to be just a lie and giant fake or misunderstanding (50 millions), how you can be sure that second one (8 millions) is not? Sure there was interfractional struggle and there were repressions, like there was one really terrible in France after revolution. Many of overzealous and out-of-control people who were making this repressions, for example Ezhov, ended up repressed for that later, just like jacobins in France. Sure there was famine. But famine was in Poland during this years as well where there was no collectivization. It was in Romania. Hell, it was even in Austria!! It was not caused by collectivization, only, perhaps influenced by it, it was caused by really, really bad harvest and climate conditions. Yes, both repressions and famine were dark pages in history of Soviet Union, but nothing even close to what this numbers presume. Such huge loss of live would left marks. There are none, except death toll of civil war and world war. On the other hand we know for fact that during Cold War both sides (US and USSR) were engaged in propaganda war as well, and one of US strategies was painting of USSR as "empire of evil", as something as terrible as Mordor. Right now US is engaged in another propaganda war on Middle East where it's mass media is making kinda Star Wars picture with noble rebels fighting against evil regime of Emperor Palpatine. US did same in Afghanistan. Afgani rebels, mujaheddin, ended up in Taliban. Same guys against whome US is now fighting in Afghanistan. Rebels in Syria ended up working in dosens of Al-Queda-affiliated bands. So tell me.... why you take this terrible picture of USSR on face value? After fall of Soviet Union this "empire of evil" campaign did not stop. In fact it intensified, especially in former Soviet or Warsaw Pact states to cement victory of US and weaken new positions of Russia. For example in case of ukraine this capmaign led to rise of neo-nazi movememnt who hate russians just like original nazi hated jews and blame russians in all that happened during Soviet Union.

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#61 Edited by lillion1 (149 posts) - - Show Bio

@rubear:

You are currently lying to yourself. This number of 8 million doesn't come from the US propaganda machine. The number of 50 million did.

.

This number is calculated by historians after analyzing documents released by the Russian government.

Stalin wasn't as bad as Hitler. 8 million is not 11 million civilians. But if you start claiming that Stalin was not a despot who needlessly killed people from his own population then you are delusional. He is still one of the worst despots that have existed in written history

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#62 Posted by anakon4 (438 posts) - - Show Bio

@anakon4: No they didn't. They had no idea what germs were or how they spread or anything like that. Why do you think so many people died in the Civil War? Over 400,000 died from disease and injury because they had no clue how to handle wounds. They'd amputate people and use the same saw without sterilizing it. People would step in excrement and then use their food cutting knife to trim their toe nails. They had no idea about the dangers of germs or anything like that and I dare you to prove otherwise. The idea that the Europeans used biological warfare for hundreds of years to systematically wipe out, yes NINETY PERCENT, of the Native Americans is just ludicrous. You are giving the crafty, sinister, and malevolent white man too much credit. Were many racist and hate the Native Americans? Of course, but did they commit mass genocide on a scale like Hitler, Mao, or Stalin? Absolutely not. It was from unintentional germs being spread. I was only laughing at the torture thing because you squeezed that in there with hunger and war as if torture was such a common and big killer of Native Americans lmao. I'm not laughing at the fact that it happened, but I doubt even 0.000001% of the Native American population was taken out by "torture" xD. Like the Americans had nothing better to do than just go into a village and tie Native Americans to a tree and just poke them with metal objects one by one all day long until they died. I'm not going to get into the unfairness, racism, and anecdotal instances. I'm just correcting and informing you that 90% died from disease only. Saying that Americans/colonists are on par with some of the worst dictators in the 20th century is a flat out lie.

I never said they knew how to treat it. I only said they know how it is created and how it spreads. I never said it was on intention, but if natives wouldn't die of diseases, they would be wiped by immigrants so... it doesn't really matter. Also, you really think its better to annihilate 50, 000, 000 because of stupidity than 6,000,000 because of their wealth to support rest of your people?

Like the Americans had nothing better to do than just go into a village and tie Native Americans to a tree and just poke them with metal objects one by one all day long until they died.

Who talked about that? You need 10 minutes to rip someone's nails, break fingers, cut off certain parts without the person dying, use fire etc.

I didn't say they torture natives to death, I just said they tortured them.

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#63 Posted by Rubear (4651 posts) - - Show Bio

@lillion1 said:

@rubear:

This number is calculated by historians after analyzing documents released by the Russian government.

O, r'ly? Which one? If it's russian government of Yeltsin, then it's most likely result of US propaganda machine as well.
Untill his last year or two as president Yeltsin was nothing more then US puppet, just like ukrainian president is now. Delusional? Well, for me Stalin is leader who came to Russia with a wooden plough and left it in possession of atomic weapons. Who came to Russia that was weak agrarian state reeling from civil war and left it as world power. Man under whose leadership my people survived most terrible war in history of humanity against enemy who thought to wipe us all or enslave us. I'm not lying to myself. I refuse to accept terrible lie about past of my state. I refuse to share red guilt that antisoviet propaganda tried to impose on us. And with each new lie of US propagana about my state or situation around the world i see that in this refusial i'm right.
Now i want to ask you one question. During World War there was most terrible famine in Bengal. According to different estimations from 1,5 to 4 millions of people died during this famine. From 60,3 millions of bengalians. Would you say that Churchill murdered them all in cold blood or that it was natural disaster? Ot that for example "prioritised distribution" policy that gave priority to some classes of people had no effect on question of who lived and who died during this famine?

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#64 Edited by lillion1 (149 posts) - - Show Bio

@rubear

Dude I am a Soviet myself. And for some reason I can think and you can't. It has nothing to do with people. It has nothing to do with his accomplishments. He indeed did lots of good things for the Soviet Union. He made it a military powerful union. He won ww2. But if you refuse to see the bad he did and only see the good, you are delusional. In your mind you made a god out of him.

Such delusions are dangerous. These kind of delusions allowed Hitler to do what he did, this kind of delusions allowed Mao to do what he did, these kind of delusions help North Korea survive in its current form and these kind of delusions allowed Stalin to slaughter civilians in the Soviet Union without anyone doing anything about it. These kind of delusions are the first thing people are fed when a dictator takes power. Because delusional people will not oppose that dictator.

.

Congratulations, you entered into the category of not worth my time. Discussions are great, but discussions with delusional people are a waste of time

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#65 Posted by HeroUp2112 (18328 posts) - - Show Bio

@lillion1 said:

@rubear

Dude I am a Soviet myself. And for some reason I can think and you can't. It has nothing to do with people. It has nothing to do with his accomplishments. He indeed did lots of good things for the Soviet Union. He made it a military powerful union. He won ww2. But if you refuse to see the bad he did and only see the good, you are delusional. In your mind you made a god out of him.

Such delusions are dangerous. These kind of delusions allowed Hitler to do what he did, this kind of delusions allowed Mao to do what he did, these kind of delusions help North Korea survive in its current form and these kind of delusions allowed Stalin to slaughter civilians in the Soviet Union without anyone doing anything about it. These kind of delusions are the first thing people are fed when a dictator takes power. Because delusional people will not oppose that dictator.

.

Congratulations, you entered into the category of not worth my time. Discussions are great, but discussions with delusional people are a waste of time

I have to be on board with this. I might also add that, as a fervent American Patriot, it would be delusional of me to forget the atrocities we committed against the Native American peoples of this country, or the crimes against the Africans (and Spanish Moors to a much lesser extent) that we kept in bondage during the slave trade and during the Jim Crow years. Forgetting the past puts us in much more danger of repeating it.

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#66 Edited by BlueHope (2681 posts) - - Show Bio

This "at least Hittler wanted to improve the economy" is invalid, Communists believed that their style of gov and economy would work better and be more fair to everybody even though they failed.

Communists goal was to turn economy fair to everybody and eradicate poverty, Nazis goals were eratication of entire groups like Jews(ethnically not religion only) handicapped civilians and later homosexuals to "clean the aryan race" that's not altruistic or noble that's selfish.

Hittler also was the main responsible for WW2 so he is the partially responsible for all those deaths as well.

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#67 Edited by Rubear (4651 posts) - - Show Bio

@lillion1 said:

@rubear

In your mind you made a god out of him.

Nope. In my mind a made a human and not monster out of him. But you? "At least Hitler killed the Jews out of misguidedness". That's your words, not mine, hypocrite. And you dare to call me delusional?

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#68 Posted by Revan- (7959 posts) - - Show Bio

All of them must still answer for their fashion crime. Look at their hair.

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#69 Posted by Revan- (7959 posts) - - Show Bio

Hitler was "misguided"? Lmfao.

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#70 Edited by lillion1 (149 posts) - - Show Bio

@revan2424:

Lol agree with you.

As for misguided. Yes, he started with the best intentions (bettering the situation in Germany) and soon became a monster. He focused all the hate of the nation on some groups without trying to understand these people. He even went as far as making the hate stronger. Probably it started as a way to gain power but I believe that he himself believed his own lies after a while. Hence what I meant with misguided. Perhaps delusional would have been the better word in this case.

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#71 Posted by Rubear (4651 posts) - - Show Bio

Hitler was "misguided"? Lmfao.

Perhaps Lillion is from ukraine. That'd explaine much.

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#72 Edited by Rubear (4651 posts) - - Show Bio

I respect your opinion and note it. But...

@heroup2112 said:
Forgetting the past puts us in much more danger of repeating it.

Forgetting the past indeed represents danger, even if repeating completly it is simply impossible, because "you cannot enter the same river twice", each time it's a different river and a different you. Different people, different culture, different conditions - all it lead us to different choices. But i can point on two problems.
Firstly, flagellation because of some "sins of past" is not answer, it do not let people see clear, it makes them blind with guilt, shame and self-hatred (or hatred towards state) and so lead to new errors and new problems. Secondly there is a factor of propaganda and rewriting of history that makes it sometimes difficult to see from later interpritations of history what happened and what didn't happen.
Together this two factors are making blind faith without any attempts to think, to understand what really happened and why dangerous, destructive. I see contradictions between propaganda and quasiofficial western versions of repressions and real picture from census that is showing constant and large scale growth of population of Soviet Union with exception of times of war. Together with knowledge of "empire of evil" propaganda campaign against Soviet Uion that makes me extremly sceptical towards this horror storries. Fact that most ardent believers in huge repressions in Russia are our liberals, people who i consider a bunch of liers who brought all statequaqes of 90-th on our heads and would be happy to force us to share their flagellation idea isn't making it believable like at all. Just as deccommunisation and in fact derusification campaign that is going now rampant on ukraine where such ideas were brewing for a long time since Fall of USSR. It startes with "recognition of crimes", then came idea that "urkainians are not russians", that "we made Ukraine and now it's time to make ukrainians", then came idea that russians are guilty in all bad things that happened on ukraine during USSR, that "people of Donbass are aliens who commies brought after they purposefully killed off so many ukrainians"... At the same time they were slowly making nazi collaborationists, scum like Bandera, national heroes.
Why i should believe in all this horror stories about USSR when i know that perhaps most of it is a lie, when i remember anarchy of 90-th and what i don't remember and never saw i can see right now on Ukraine? When i know this horror stories about USSR and Stalin were made into weapons or were made as weapons in propagandistic war against my state and my people? I shouldn't.

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#73 Posted by lillion1 (149 posts) - - Show Bio

@rubear:

Actually I am from Armenia.

And the proof Stalin did kill those civilians comes from the release of Soviet archives. Which is hard proof that can be presented in a court of justice. In 1937 and 1938 alone 357 proscription lists were signed by Stalin himself that condemned some 40,000 people for execution. These are documents with his signature. Archives do not lie, which is the reason the Turkish people refuse to grant access to the archives about the ''Armenian deportation''. If they did there would be proof that this ''deportation'' was a genocide. You can stick your head in the sand for all I care, but the facts will not change.

Also personal attacks, the number one proof of the fact that the person has no valid arguments left to use against you;

reaction smile smiling clapping vladimir putin GIF

I apologize for my earlier statement. This post was really fun. Though I have to apologize. Nothing is to be had from this discussion anymore. You officially are not worthy of my time anymore.

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#75 Posted by HeroUp2112 (18328 posts) - - Show Bio

@rubear said:

I respect your opinion and note it. But...

@heroup2112 said:
Forgetting the past puts us in much more danger of repeating it.

Forgetting the past indeed represents danger, even if repeating completly it is simply impossible, because "you cannot enter the same river twice", each time it's a different river and a different you. Different people, different culture, different conditions - all it lead us to different choices. But i can point on two problems.

Firstly, flagellation because of some "sins of past" is not answer, it do not let people see clear, it makes them blind with guilt, shame and self-hatred (or hatred towards state) and so lead to new errors and new problems. Secondly there is a factor of propaganda and rewriting of history that makes it sometimes difficult to see from later interpritations of history what happened and what didn't happen.

Together this two factors are making blind faith without any attempts to think, to understand what really happened and why dangerous, destructive. I see contradictions between propaganda and quasiofficial western versions of repressions and real picture from census that is showing constant and large scale growth of population of Soviet Union with exception of times of war. Together with knowledge of "empire of evil" propaganda campaign against Soviet Uion that makes me extremly sceptical towards this horror storries. Fact that most ardent believers in huge repressions in Russia are our liberals, people who i consider a bunch of liers who brought all statequaqes of 90-th on our heads and would be happy to force us to share their flagellation idea isn't making it believable like at all. Just as deccommunisation and in fact derusification campaign that is going now rampant on ukraine where such ideas were brewing for a long time since Fall of USSR. It startes with "recognition of crimes", then came idea that "urkainians are not russians", that "we made Ukraine and now it's time to make ukrainians", then came idea that russians are guilty in all bad things that happened on ukraine during USSR, that "people of Donbass are aliens who commies brought after they purposefully killed off so many ukrainians"... At the same time they were slowly making nazi collaborationists, scum like Bandera, national heroes.

Why i should believe in all this horror stories about USSR when i know that perhaps most of it is a lie, when i remember anarchy of 90-th and what i don't remember and never saw i can see right now on Ukraine? When i know this horror stories about USSR and Stalin were made into weapons or were made as weapons in propagandistic war against my state and my people? I shouldn't.

If you ignore how the people before you entered the river, it certainly is important. If you enter in the same place, the same way, trying to swim in the same fashion...if they drowned...or drowned someone else, then the odds are the same result will occur.

I'm not going to try to tell you everything your country did was wrong and they deserve to be punished for it, certainly not forever. I'll be the first to admit I was raised during the Cold War and much of my knowledge of your country is informed by that time period.

However, from the research I've been doing regarding the situation in the Ukraine (honestly, since I've started talking to you) and I don't mean to piss you off here, but it seems to me it's a little difficult to say that there's a "good guy" here. Though I will say (though I'm open to opposing evidence) that I've found little evidence of wide spread "Naziism" (though to be sure there are small segments of anti-semites and white supremacists among the Ukrainian fighters, and yes I've seen the flags in the released pictures). Most of the leadership of the Ukrainian government has shown to almost be too far the other way (in my opinion). Heck, the number 3 man in power, the speaker of parliament, Volodymyr Groysman, is Jewish. He's the third most important person in the government after the President and Prime Minister (unless I've gotten my information wrong...honestly I don't think I have.).

As I've said, it's hard to find a "good guy" CLEARLY a decent segment of the eastern portion of the population wants to be under Russian authority, but it's also very clear that the rest of the country clearly does not. Even after the March 2014 referendum (regardless of if you believe Russia's or the West's version), Poroshenko STILL won the election in May.

I'm not diplomat, but seems to ME that the best way to do it would be to hold some sort of referendum, overseen by the UN, and let the populace (with each voter being tallied by what region they are from) decide if they want to split the country. It seems pretty much split down the middle between Ukrainian/Ukrainian Speaking/Hungarian Speaking and Russian Speaking/Ethnic Russians/Moldavians-Romanians (and a few others).

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#76 Posted by Rubear (4651 posts) - - Show Bio

@lillion1 said:

@rubear:

Actually I am from Armenia.

In 1937 and 1938 alone 357 proscription lists were signed by Stalin himself that condemned some 40,000 people for execution.

Too bad.
But then all your mountain people have a habit for grudges. In case of your people and Turkey you have a real reason to do so.
And of course you saw each and every list and not just some article in Wikipedia, of course you took into consideration that Yezhov (guy responsible for this so-called Great Purge) went out of control and was executed for it, of course you took into consideration all details, sush as that first act of Beria in 38 was to cancel out orders of Yezhov and to suspended implementation of death sentences. So, there was interpartial struggle in elites... right before world war with tensions already in air and Hitler (Guy who said in 39 to generals "Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?" amongst many other bad things) going to Czechoslovakia in 1938. Considering that this people (communist party elite) went through civil war just a decade ago and lived, well, in past century it's stange to expect that they'd value lives of opponents as much as we do now, so struggle went bloody. Guy who was leading NKVD went crazy. When Stalin find out about scope Yezhov ended up repressed just as many of his goons. Case closed.

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#77 Edited by lillion1 (149 posts) - - Show Bio

@rubear: Intresting. You are better informed than I thought. Apologies for saying you were not worth my time.

Thing is my grandma remembers some of what happend back then and my father is a historian. At least he was until we went to the netherlands. I agree with you about what you said about changing history, but it is not long enough for facts to have completely changed.

You told me a couple things I didn't know about. Never heard of Bernia nor that Yezhov was executed. Doesn't change the fact of the 357 proscription lists signed by Stalin in only these two years. Even if Yezhov went out of control the initial order was given by Stalin. And I also do know that the famine story is something told in the western world and that Russia is denying that it was targeted to Ukrainians, so I will not focus on the famine anymore. Though I hope you will understand why I remain skeptical about it considering my heritage.

Instead I will focus on the 2-3 million civilian deaths outside the famine. But before I can continue with a more informed argument for this discussion I would like to do some more research.

Can you send me a PM with articles about Yezhev and Bernia? Preferably in English because I can only understand Russian if it is spoken reaaaly slowly and can't read any of it. Would like to read up more on them. If you send me a couple articles I can cross reference them with a couple things I might find myself. That should make it easier for me to make an analysis myself of what happened back then

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#78 Posted by Rubear (4651 posts) - - Show Bio

@rubear said:

I respect your opinion and note it. But...

@heroup2112 said:
Forgetting the past puts us in much more danger of repeating it.

Forgetting the past indeed represents danger, even if repeating completly it is simply impossible, because "you cannot enter the same river twice", each time it's a different river and a different you. Different people, different culture, different conditions - all it lead us to different choices. But i can point on two problems.

Firstly, flagellation because of some "sins of past" is not answer, it do not let people see clear, it makes them blind with guilt, shame and self-hatred (or hatred towards state) and so lead to new errors and new problems. Secondly there is a factor of propaganda and rewriting of history that makes it sometimes difficult to see from later interpritations of history what happened and what didn't happen.

Together this two factors are making blind faith without any attempts to think, to understand what really happened and why dangerous, destructive. I see contradictions between propaganda and quasiofficial western versions of repressions and real picture from census that is showing constant and large scale growth of population of Soviet Union with exception of times of war. Together with knowledge of "empire of evil" propaganda campaign against Soviet Uion that makes me extremly sceptical towards this horror storries. Fact that most ardent believers in huge repressions in Russia are our liberals, people who i consider a bunch of liers who brought all statequaqes of 90-th on our heads and would be happy to force us to share their flagellation idea isn't making it believable like at all. Just as deccommunisation and in fact derusification campaign that is going now rampant on ukraine where such ideas were brewing for a long time since Fall of USSR. It startes with "recognition of crimes", then came idea that "urkainians are not russians", that "we made Ukraine and now it's time to make ukrainians", then came idea that russians are guilty in all bad things that happened on ukraine during USSR, that "people of Donbass are aliens who commies brought after they purposefully killed off so many ukrainians"... At the same time they were slowly making nazi collaborationists, scum like Bandera, national heroes.

Why i should believe in all this horror stories about USSR when i know that perhaps most of it is a lie, when i remember anarchy of 90-th and what i don't remember and never saw i can see right now on Ukraine? When i know this horror stories about USSR and Stalin were made into weapons or were made as weapons in propagandistic war against my state and my people? I shouldn't.

If you ignore how the people before you entered the river, it certainly is important. If you enter in the same place, the same way, trying to swim in the same fashion...if they drowned...or drowned someone else, then the odds are the same result will occur.

I'm not going to try to tell you everything your country did was wrong and they deserve to be punished for it, certainly not forever. I'll be the first to admit I was raised during the Cold War and much of my knowledge of your country is informed by that time period.

However, from the research I've been doing regarding the situation in the Ukraine (honestly, since I've started talking to you) and I don't mean to piss you off here, but it seems to me it's a little difficult to say that there's a "good guy" here. Though I will say (though I'm open to opposing evidence) that I've found little evidence of wide spread "Naziism" (though to be sure there are small segments of anti-semites and white supremacists among the Ukrainian fighters, and yes I've seen the flags in the released pictures). Most of the leadership of the Ukrainian government has shown to almost be too far the other way (in my opinion). Heck, the number 3 man in power, the speaker of parliament, Volodymyr Groysman, is Jewish. He's the third most important person in the government after the President and Prime Minister (unless I've gotten my information wrong...honestly I don't think I have.).

As I've said, it's hard to find a "good guy" CLEARLY a decent segment of the eastern portion of the population wants to be under Russian authority, but it's also very clear that the rest of the country clearly does not. Even after the March 2014 referendum (regardless of if you believe Russia's or the West's version), Poroshenko STILL won the election in May.

I'm not diplomat, but seems to ME that the best way to do it would be to hold some sort of referendum, overseen by the UN, and let the populace (with each voter being tallied by what region they are from) decide if they want to split the country. It seems pretty much split down the middle between Ukrainian/Ukrainian Speaking/Hungarian Speaking and Russian Speaking/Ethnic Russians/Moldavians-Romanians (and a few others).

I got to admit that this is good point, but to know that there is a dangerous place on a river one don't need to know about all who came at this place before. Warning sign or knowledge about river itself should be enough.
You misunderstand situation... ukrainian neonazi do not hate jews, they hate russians and communists and they blame russians for like everything bad that happened in Soviet Union, true or false. For ukrainian government they are both useful goons and rouge element that has a strong influence on ukrainian political situation. You may look on information on so-called "blockade" of Donbass for example. Neonazi started it and forced government to join it. This guys don't want peace. They want war. They want to drown rebellion on Donbass in blood like they did in Odessa. And considering that they all have weapons... Poroshenko would be unable to do his part of Minsk Agreements even if he'd want to. He don't. He is okay with taking money from western creditation for "sruggle with evil bear".
I know about elections in May. I also know that during this moment many ukrainians were under constant torrent of information coming from mass media about idea that basically the moment they'll get Euroassociation, they'll got to do only one step to joining EU... to get the european (Germany european) level of live. There was enthusiasm of contagious kind but so little understanding and knowledge. Not all people were happy with it. Some were protesting. Elections on ukraine started on 25 of May. During this time blood was already spilling. For example on second day of May in Odessa neonazi and football fans of kind you'd never want to see on your stadium drived antimaidan activists at the Trade Unions House and burned 40 of them alive. Tell me, does this look like people of Odessa, million of them, had free choice on elections? War on Donbass also started before elections in April, so hundres of thousands of people were also unable to take part. And i'm not speaking about how corrupt is ukrainian political system...
Well, that's more... complicated in case of language. There are russian-speaking, there are ukrainian-speaking, there are people speaking on surzhik (mix between ukrainian and russian)... that's not exactly line of division. Russian-speaking citizen of ukraine may be soldier in their army, ukrainian-speaking may be fighting on Donbass militia or living in new home here in Russia. Line is between some western ukrainians ("ukrainians are not russians", "hung russians, москаляку на гиляку", "knive russians, москалей на ножи" - that their kind of talk, also people from western ukraine are going for work in Russia as well) and eastern ukrainians ("russians and ukrainians are more or less same", "our industry is working on russian money", etc) kind of people. Between rabid nationalists and realists. I'd like to see such referendum, honestly, but psychos from western ukraine - they'd not let it happen. And they are real psychos, you know... Huge parts of ukrainian economy were working on russian money. Thousands of workers. Entire parts of industry. And they just cut it all the moment they get influence and place in government. So now after takeover we have this. Ukrainian economy left itself in tatters. Russia is building all kind of factories to replace production previously made on ukrainian ones which is good for us and bad for ukraine. Now they are pillaging banks. Millions fled from ukraine. There is war, slow and seemingly unending. Ukies have a plans for assaults... don't they understand that the moment they'd launch assault that'd be a threat for people on Donetsk, if they'd force Russia to join this war directly their army'd be beaten in weeks or even days? Idiots...

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#79 Edited by HeroUp2112 (18328 posts) - - Show Bio

@rubear said:
@heroup2112 said:
@rubear said:

I respect your opinion and note it. But...

@heroup2112 said:
Forgetting the past puts us in much more danger of repeating it.

Forgetting the past indeed represents danger, even if repeating completly it is simply impossible, because "you cannot enter the same river twice", each time it's a different river and a different you. Different people, different culture, different conditions - all it lead us to different choices. But i can point on two problems.

Firstly, flagellation because of some "sins of past" is not answer, it do not let people see clear, it makes them blind with guilt, shame and self-hatred (or hatred towards state) and so lead to new errors and new problems. Secondly there is a factor of propaganda and rewriting of history that makes it sometimes difficult to see from later interpritations of history what happened and what didn't happen.

Together this two factors are making blind faith without any attempts to think, to understand what really happened and why dangerous, destructive. I see contradictions between propaganda and quasiofficial western versions of repressions and real picture from census that is showing constant and large scale growth of population of Soviet Union with exception of times of war. Together with knowledge of "empire of evil" propaganda campaign against Soviet Uion that makes me extremly sceptical towards this horror storries. Fact that most ardent believers in huge repressions in Russia are our liberals, people who i consider a bunch of liers who brought all statequaqes of 90-th on our heads and would be happy to force us to share their flagellation idea isn't making it believable like at all. Just as deccommunisation and in fact derusification campaign that is going now rampant on ukraine where such ideas were brewing for a long time since Fall of USSR. It startes with "recognition of crimes", then came idea that "urkainians are not russians", that "we made Ukraine and now it's time to make ukrainians", then came idea that russians are guilty in all bad things that happened on ukraine during USSR, that "people of Donbass are aliens who commies brought after they purposefully killed off so many ukrainians"... At the same time they were slowly making nazi collaborationists, scum like Bandera, national heroes.

Why i should believe in all this horror stories about USSR when i know that perhaps most of it is a lie, when i remember anarchy of 90-th and what i don't remember and never saw i can see right now on Ukraine? When i know this horror stories about USSR and Stalin were made into weapons or were made as weapons in propagandistic war against my state and my people? I shouldn't.

If you ignore how the people before you entered the river, it certainly is important. If you enter in the same place, the same way, trying to swim in the same fashion...if they drowned...or drowned someone else, then the odds are the same result will occur.

I'm not going to try to tell you everything your country did was wrong and they deserve to be punished for it, certainly not forever. I'll be the first to admit I was raised during the Cold War and much of my knowledge of your country is informed by that time period.

However, from the research I've been doing regarding the situation in the Ukraine (honestly, since I've started talking to you) and I don't mean to piss you off here, but it seems to me it's a little difficult to say that there's a "good guy" here. Though I will say (though I'm open to opposing evidence) that I've found little evidence of wide spread "Naziism" (though to be sure there are small segments of anti-semites and white supremacists among the Ukrainian fighters, and yes I've seen the flags in the released pictures). Most of the leadership of the Ukrainian government has shown to almost be too far the other way (in my opinion). Heck, the number 3 man in power, the speaker of parliament, Volodymyr Groysman, is Jewish. He's the third most important person in the government after the President and Prime Minister (unless I've gotten my information wrong...honestly I don't think I have.).

As I've said, it's hard to find a "good guy" CLEARLY a decent segment of the eastern portion of the population wants to be under Russian authority, but it's also very clear that the rest of the country clearly does not. Even after the March 2014 referendum (regardless of if you believe Russia's or the West's version), Poroshenko STILL won the election in May.

I'm not diplomat, but seems to ME that the best way to do it would be to hold some sort of referendum, overseen by the UN, and let the populace (with each voter being tallied by what region they are from) decide if they want to split the country. It seems pretty much split down the middle between Ukrainian/Ukrainian Speaking/Hungarian Speaking and Russian Speaking/Ethnic Russians/Moldavians-Romanians (and a few others).

I got to admit that this is good point, but to know that there is a dangerous place on a river one don't need to know about all who came at this place before. Warning sign or knowledge about river itself should be enough.

You misunderstand situation... ukrainian neonazi do not hate jews, they hate russians and communists and they blame russians for like everything bad that happened in Soviet Union, true or false. For ukrainian government they are both useful goons and rouge element that has a strong influence on ukrainian political situation. You may look on information on so-called "blockade" of Donbass for example. Neonazi started it and forced government to join it. This guys don't want peace. They want war. They want to drown rebellion on Donbass in blood like they did in Odessa. And considering that they all have weapons... Poroshenko would be unable to do his part of Minsk Agreements even if he'd want to. He don't. He is okay with taking money from western creditation for "sruggle with evil bear".

I know about elections in May. I also know that during this moment many ukrainians were under constant torrent of information coming from mass media about idea that basically the moment they'll get Euroassociation, they'll got to do only one step to joining EU... to get the european (Germany european) level of live. There was enthusiasm of contagious kind but so little understanding and knowledge. Not all people were happy with it. Some were protesting. Elections on ukraine started on 25 of May. During this time blood was already spilling. For example on second day of May in Odessa neonazi and football fans of kind you'd never want to see on your stadium drived antimaidan activists at the Trade Unions House and burned 40 of them alive. Tell me, does this look like people of Odessa, million of them, had free choice on elections? War on Donbass also started before elections in April, so hundres of thousands of people were also unable to take part. And i'm not speaking about how corrupt is ukrainian political system...

Well, that's more... complicated in case of language. There are russian-speaking, there are ukrainian-speaking, there are people speaking on surzhik (mix between ukrainian and russian)... that's not exactly line of division. Russian-speaking citizen of ukraine may be soldier in their army, ukrainian-speaking may be fighting on Donbass militia or living in new home here in Russia. Line is between some western ukrainians ("ukrainians are not russians", "hung russians, москаляку на гиляку", "knive russians, москалей на ножи" - that their kind of talk, also people from western ukraine are going for work in Russia as well) and eastern ukrainians ("russians and ukrainians are more or less same", "our industry is working on russian money", etc) kind of people. Between rabid nationalists and realists. I'd like to see such referendum, honestly, but psychos from western ukraine - they'd not let it happen. And they are real psychos, you know... Huge parts of ukrainian economy were working on russian money. Thousands of workers. Entire parts of industry. And they just cut it all the moment they get influence and place in government. So now after takeover we have this. Ukrainian economy left itself in tatters. Russia is building all kind of factories to replace production previously made on ukrainian ones which is good for us and bad for ukraine. Now they are pillaging banks. Millions fled from ukraine. There is war, slow and seemingly unending. Ukies have a plans for assaults... don't they understand that the moment they'd launch assault that'd be a threat for people on Donetsk, if they'd force Russia to join this war directly their army'd be beaten in weeks or even days? Idiots...

This is pretty much what I'm saying...maybe not from your point of view...but there really aren't any "good guys" here as far as the people in charge go. The same could pretty much be said about Vietnam, although the two situations aren't really that similar I think you get what I'm saying.

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#80 Posted by destinyman75 (14687 posts) - - Show Bio

@anakon4: I was going to say the American government dealing with native Americans worse by far. But out of these ID have to say stalin, based soley on the fact Hitler was terrified of him..

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#81 Posted by HeroUp2112 (18328 posts) - - Show Bio

@anakon4: I was going to say the American government dealing with native Americans worse by far. But out of these ID have to say stalin, based soley on the fact Hitler was terrified of him..

Once again I make no excuses for the crimes of my ancestors, however one fact keeps being overlooked by people when it comes to the genocide (and it is by far the worst in recorded history...believe me I've studied it). While the United States government was heavily invested in it at times it was not only not constrained to the United States, it was begun long before a United States existed, and extended both south and north of the US borders and was conducted by the French, Spanish, English, Portuguese, and Italian colonists for several centuries. Canada's less heard of but just as fervent atrocities against its own native peoples.

We in the United States were responsible for more than enough of the blood shed, but it's time to stop painting us as if we invented the situation or that it's a purely American thing. Thanks.

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#82 Posted by Noone1996 (11857 posts) - - Show Bio

@anakon4: yes it's better that 90% was on accident. I'm ending it here because this is all I've been trying to say this whole time. It wasn't one hundred million murdered in cold blood like you originally said.

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#83 Posted by destinyman75 (14687 posts) - - Show Bio

@heroup2112: while tjatst true I submit America dis the most out of those and I have ancestors on both sides. Also no one said where painting a picture of purely American I was referring to something specific, it was truly evil and without remorse in how it was carried out. A genocide not only by guns, but starvation, forced diseases by giving blankets with small pox and other deadly diseases. To me that was just as evil if not more so then these listed. But I'm not trying to paint a bad picture of America being American just related that info on the topic..

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#84 Posted by HeroUp2112 (18328 posts) - - Show Bio

@heroup2112: while tjatst true I submit America dis the most out of those and I have ancestors on both sides. Also no one said where painting a picture of purely American I was referring to something specific, it was truly evil and without remorse in how it was carried out. A genocide not only by guns, but starvation, forced diseases by giving blankets with small pox and other deadly diseases. To me that was just as evil if not more so then these listed. But I'm not trying to paint a bad picture of America being American just related that info on the topic..

Forced diseases?

While the colonists were aware of diseases, by NO means did they have any understanding of the immune system, or that the Native Americans would have been any more susceptible to the diseases of Europe than the Europeans themselves. In fact, the notion of immunology (in the form of immunizations) not only didn't arrive until 1796...pioneered by a doctor named Edward Jenner...but he was ridiculed for the very IDEA of trying to immunize people with a weakened strained of a disease (IIRC I think the first one he tried...and succeeded with...was cow pox...I'd have to look it up though).

Did the white man screw over the Native Americans...sadly, and I hate to have to say it...yes. Did we try to implement some sort of pro-biological warfare on them? Sorry, just didn't happen.

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#85 Posted by Stan Rodriguez (532 posts) - - Show Bio

Josef I think his people suffered more than Hitler's oppressed group, but I'm ignorant at the moment of Mao's regime.

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#86 Posted by deactivated-5a04a566e9ae3 (12864 posts) - - Show Bio

Mao because he doesn't have a mustache.

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#87 Edited by anakon4 (438 posts) - - Show Bio

@anakon4: I was going to say the American government dealing with native Americans worse by far. But out of these ID have to say stalin, based soley on the fact Hitler was terrified of him..

Problem is that Hitler was "relatively" sane to the 1944, but Stalin had fked up his mind near the end of Lenin (1924).

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#88 Posted by anakon4 (438 posts) - - Show Bio

@destinyman75 said:

@anakon4: I was going to say the American government dealing with native Americans worse by far. But out of these ID have to say stalin, based soley on the fact Hitler was terrified of him..

Once again I make no excuses for the crimes of my ancestors, however one fact keeps being overlooked by people when it comes to the genocide (and it is by far the worst in recorded history...believe me I've studied it). While the United States government was heavily invested in it at times it was not only not constrained to the United States, it was begun long before a United States existed, and extended both south and north of the US borders and was conducted by the French, Spanish, English, Portuguese, and Italian colonists for several centuries. Canada's less heard of but just as fervent atrocities against its own native peoples.

We in the United States were responsible for more than enough of the blood shed, but it's time to stop painting us as if we invented the situation or that it's a purely American thing. Thanks.

No offense, bro.

But your country still sort of a holds a record in kill count :P

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#89 Posted by Outside_85 (23518 posts) - - Show Bio

Going with Mao because he was just horrible to his own people and was the reason China was a backwater till very recently.

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#90 Posted by Eto (5307 posts) - - Show Bio
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#91 Posted by Hungry_Sharky (1394 posts) - - Show Bio

Mao killed the most people. Hitler tried to take over the world. Stalin was somewhere in the middle.

They all suck.

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#92 Posted by HeroUp2112 (18328 posts) - - Show Bio

@anakon4 said:
@heroup2112 said:
@destinyman75 said:

@anakon4: I was going to say the American government dealing with native Americans worse by far. But out of these ID have to say stalin, based soley on the fact Hitler was terrified of him..

Once again I make no excuses for the crimes of my ancestors, however one fact keeps being overlooked by people when it comes to the genocide (and it is by far the worst in recorded history...believe me I've studied it). While the United States government was heavily invested in it at times it was not only not constrained to the United States, it was begun long before a United States existed, and extended both south and north of the US borders and was conducted by the French, Spanish, English, Portuguese, and Italian colonists for several centuries. Canada's less heard of but just as fervent atrocities against its own native peoples.

We in the United States were responsible for more than enough of the blood shed, but it's time to stop painting us as if we invented the situation or that it's a purely American thing. Thanks.

No offense, bro.

But your country still sort of a holds a record in kill count :P

heh, Okay, fair enough.

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#93 Edited by JohnnyZ256 (6484 posts) - - Show Bio

Since you're comparing more than two people, use worst.

Notice:

"Who is a worse shortshop: Joe Blow or Bob Goldschmidt?"

"Who is the worst boxer of all-time?"

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#94 Posted by BruceRogers (17450 posts) - - Show Bio

Chairman Mao

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#95 Posted by WollfMyth209 (16803 posts) - - Show Bio

...

Yes.

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#96 Posted by Mortein (6044 posts) - - Show Bio

IMO Hitler is literally Hitler.

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#97 Edited by Lunacyde (28253 posts) - - Show Bio

@noone1996: LOL, so your argument is that disease beat them to it so they aren't responsible? Get real. If the natives hadn't been wiped out by disease how do you think we were going to take all their resources and steal their land? Ask them pretty please? The disease did Europeans a favor when they came to rob the land and resources of America, that doesn't mean they don't bear any responsibility or that they wouldn't have wiped out those natives had they been given a chance. In fact, if we look at the historical evidence of what happened to those who were not initially wiped out by disease we would see a pattern of genocidal behavior and attitudes from European settlers.

Here is a fact for you.

" In 1851 and 1852, the state of California spent $1 million per year to exterminate Native people."

"Beginning in 1856, the governor issued a bounty of $0.25 per Indian scalp, increasing it to $5.00 per Indian scalp in 1860, and reimbursed bounty hunters for the cost of ammunition and other supplies." (Alkon & Agyeman 31)

Sounds like a genocide to me, but I'll let you hear it straight from the mouths of those who lived and supported it.

"A war of extermination will continue to be waged between the two races until the Indian race becomes extinct."

California Governor Peter H. Burnett, January 1851 (Alkon & Agyeman 30)

"The idea, strange as it may appear, never occurred to them (the Indians) that they were suffering for the great cause of civilization, which, in the natural course of things, must exterminate Indians."

Special Agent J. Ross Browne, Indian Affairs

We hope that the Government will render such aid as will enable the citizens of the north to carry on a war of extermination until the last redskin of these tribes has been killed. Extermination is no longer a question of time--the time has arrived, the work has commenced and let the first man who says treaty or peace be regarded as a traitor."

- The Yreka Herald, 1853

It really doesn't get any clearer than that. Whites intended, and carried out a "war of extermination" against the American Indians that can only be described in a modern context by using the term genocide. Would Hitler have been any less evil if partway into his plans for the final solution 90% of the Jewish population dropped dead from disease? Would he get a free pass?

If disease had not wiped out many before them and severely weakened these Native nations and tribes European settlers would have had to wipe them out in order to carry out their objectives of settling the land and utilizing the resources provided by that land. Clearly, in the words of the settlers themselves this would have entailed carrying out extermination efforts.

Trying to write off what happened to indigenous Americans as the result of disease, and arguing that European settlers are blameless shows how absolutely little you know about the issue. Then again what should I expect from someone who constantly seems to be comfortable with running his mouth despite his ignorance on the subject. I'm sure your opinion is more valid than the man who signed legislation to wipe American Indians from the face of the Earth though. Good talk.

Works Cited

Agyeman, Julian, and Alison Hope. Alkon. Cultivating Food Justice:Race, Class, and Sustainability. N.p.: MIT, 2011. Print.

Note: I'm not comparing what happened to the American Indians/Indigenous Americans to Hitler/Stalin/Mao. That is an apples to oranges comparison. Just pointing out the laughability of the claim that European settlers are somehow not culpable for the deaths because disease killed them first.

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#98 Edited by deactivated-097092725 (10555 posts) - - Show Bio

@destinyman75 said:

@anakon4: I was going to say the American government dealing with native Americans worse by far. But out of these ID have to say stalin, based soley on the fact Hitler was terrified of him..

Once again I make no excuses for the crimes of my ancestors, however one fact keeps being overlooked by people when it comes to the genocide (and it is by far the worst in recorded history...believe me I've studied it). While the United States government was heavily invested in it at times it was not only not constrained to the United States, it was begun long before a United States existed, and extended both south and north of the US borders and was conducted by the French, Spanish, English, Portuguese, and Italian colonists for several centuries. Canada's less heard of but just as fervent atrocities against its own native peoples.

We in the United States were responsible for more than enough of the blood shed, but it's time to stop painting us as if we invented the situation or that it's a purely American thing. Thanks.

Absolutely. It's horrifying to me having to point it out to fellow Canadians who complain about the government's attempts (half assed ones) to compensate what we've done, as recently as in the last century and arguably up til now with our treatment of aboriginal communities. It's great finding someone on a comic site point it out, amongst the shared responsibility Europe should have in regards to the first American peoples (as in both North and South).

Just wanted to toss in my useless and defunct Canuck pennies into the conversation.

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#99 Posted by Lunacyde (28253 posts) - - Show Bio
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#100 Posted by deactivated-097092725 (10555 posts) - - Show Bio

@lunacyde: Figured I'd return and rattle some cages. (:P)

You're a fancy pants moderator now, hmm? I don't recall you being one last I was active on here. Good to see that you are one. Well done on this site's part.