Which is Worse: Abortion or Slavery?

It's not really an another argument when the payment is symbolic and rounds down to zero.

I ignore it because it tries to be justification. Many "want to" work because otherwise their conditions get worse.

It is not much of a Rehabilitation when the work is pointless

Some workers pick up cigarette butts from cracks in the pavement outside; others rake rocks in the yard or are simply told to go outside and stand in the rain.

or

About a quarter of jobs nationwide require professional licenses—from cosmetology to barbering,physical therapy, and work as a home health aide. To perform one of these jobs, an applicant needs approval by a state-run licensing board. People with conviction records, however, are often denied such approval. Across the country, there are about 27,000 state licensing restrictions that keep people with conviction records from licensed work. Over two-thirds of these are permanent bans, completely barring people with criminal histories from certain professions

Yet the prisons that are "summer resorts" work better than the shitty places.

It's not idiotic compare it to slavery when it's in the constitution.

Was this slavery by another name? Armstrong argues that the 13th Amendment makes an exception for “involuntary servitude,” not “slavery,” and that there are important historical and legal distinctions between the two. However, she says no court has formally dealt with this distinction, and many courts have used to two terms interchangeably. In 1871, the Virginia Supreme Court ruled that a convicted person was “a slave of the State.”

So I misspoke. Prison is not the slave owner, the state is.

BB

It's not symbolic. It's how things work. You work you get paid you use that for things to upkeep your life. Just because you're not a prisoner doesn't mean you suddenly don't have to pay for shit. In fact they have more in some cases because of the cost having to maintain things like guards and other shit. You don't have to try justifying them paying for upkeep. It just is. Justify them not having to pay for upkeep of the prison that wouldn't be there if they didn't commit a crime. Justify non prisoners having to pay for that but they don't.

Again you want to argue charged to much for certain things maybe. You want to argue getting rid of any private prisons I'll agree with you but slavery it does not make.

This point you keep trying to make has been addressed and has been settled. Anything more is just beating a dead horse.

Many "want to" work because otherwise their conditions get worse.

Many work because it's mind numbingly boring otherwise. It also keep them out of trouble from troublemakers. Something many of the prisoners wand and those running the prison want. You can't have the prisoners sitting around doing nothing. Hell again they don't even have work for everyone. They don't punish people who they don't have work for. Further more Work is part of rehabilitation or ya things are not going to be easy on you. It's punishment, it's justice for the wronged, It's rehabilitation, it's to keep them hurting others.. THis is prison not a vacation. Something you're not grasping.

It is not much of a Rehabilitation when the work is pointless

It's not mean to be the everything of rehabilitation. It's only one thing. THere are lots of benefits to it. Just because you fail to see the use doesn't mean it's pointless.

You want to argue that they don't focus enough on rehabilitation with all the programs they have in there sure. Hell I'll even agree with you but slavery it does not make.

I'm about to read the rest of your post but so far the only case you've made is prisons suck which I agree but you have not made one that it's slavery. It's time to move on. THere really isn't a point to argue these things further when it comes to prison and slavery.

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Yet the prisons that are "summer resorts" work better than the shitty places.

1 it's an opinion and doesn't look at all the issues.

2 Selective. It only good for some crimes and criminals.

3 It' heavily on rehabilitation with regular prisons fall short on.

4 It lacks on justice for the victims and punishment.

5 What that video shows is more akin to a minimum security prison and should be compared to that only. Not a maximum prison.

6 We agree the system sucks to different degrees but that's not what you're trying to prove. You're trying to prove that what the US has now is slavery. This video is irrelevant.

I had another point but I forget and it's time to move on anyway.

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It's not idiotic compare it to slavery when it's in the constitution.

It is idiotic to compare two different things and insist they're the same thing when they're not regardless of the constitution.

So I misspoke. Prison is not the slave owner, the state is.

Still bad comparison for reasons already stated and more not stated.

Slavery is bad because you're removing a person's independence and you're forcing the slave to obey the master even when the slave should be broken away from the shackles and should be a free person. Also, obviously slavery in the past in the USA was based on racism towards black people and racism is wrong. Slaves were tortured and hanged. Also, other civilizations had slavery and the slavery was hurtful to the slaves. It is sad to see that slavery still exists, even today.

I think abortion is only acceptable in the following circumstances: When the mum's life is at risk, in cases of incest, in cases of rape. Therefore, I think I'm Pro-Life but I would accept that abortion can be used in a few circumstances (the ones I noted at the start of this paragraph).

At the moment, I don't think abortion is acceptable in any other circumstance. I think life starts at conception. Abortion is murder in my opinion. I remember hearing somewhere that abortion is the number 1 killer in the USA.

Both abortion and slavery are bad. I know this might sound controversial, but since slavery doesn't necessarily mean murder (since there were slaves who were kept alive) then I would say that if you're aborting a being in the womb for no good reason then you have committed an act that is worse than slavery. However, if you did abortion because you were in a very difficult circumstance (like the ones listed in the 2nd paragraph i.e. mum's life at risk, incest, rape) then I think your abortion was understandable and acceptable and those types of particular abortions are not worse than slavery. So it depends on the type of abortion.

Abortion is murder. Slavery is evil but you can always free a slave. You can't bring back the dead. Abortion is worse.

What if the woman who aborted the baby was raped?

Both are bad, but I think slavery is worse in general.

Abortion is murder if you pull out a child in the fetal stage of growth where they start to feel something.

I hate taking part in the abortion debate. I refuse to form an opinion on abortion because it doesn't affect me. That being said, slavery is worse.

There are countries where penal labor doesn't exist so it's not a necessity for the upkeep for prisoners.

Since prisoners are not considered workers so they are not treated as workers/people with rights and protections workers are entitled to outside of prison. Which akin them to slaves by treating them less than human, though there's a difference in treatment with prisoners and slaves that I mention at the end of this post.

Incarcerated workers have been burned with chemicals, maimed,or killed on the job. Although lack of data related to work place conditions and injuries in prisons make sit difficult to know the full extent of injuries and deaths, injury logs generated by the California Prison Industry Authority (CALPIA) show that incarcerated workers reported more than 600 injuries over a four-year period, including body parts strained, crushed, lacerated, or amputated. In numerous cases we documented nationwide, injuries could have been prevented with proper training, machine guarding mechanisms, or personal protective equipment.

A lot of opinions really with an emphasis of wanting revenge rather than the betterment of prisoners and thus country after their release. We can simply compare the situation to how it was there before

Since developing its new prison system in the 1990s, its recidivism rate has decreased from around 60-70% to only 20% in recent years. The main reason for these statistics is due to a focus on “restorative justice,” an approach that identifies prisons in the same category as rehabilitation facilities. Rather than focusing on the punishment and mistreatment of its prisoners, Norway has the primary goal of reintegrating its prisoners as stable contributors to communities.

In a research paper published in 2019, the authors focused specifically on the impact of prisoners on the economy. The paper highlighted Norwegian ideologies and the results of their unique prison system. First, reducing the population of prisoners that are reincarcerated means more individuals are able to contribute to Norway’s economy once their sentence is complete. Second, among the prison population that was unemployed prior to being arrested, there was a 34% increase in this group partaking in job training courses and a 40% increase in employment rates. Lastly, Norway’s prison system equips its prisoners with education-based knowledge and labor skills that have long-term benefits to its country’s economy and also improves their personal lives.

The video was a reply to your tangent. Like I said some of these are "irrelevant" to the topic.

It's not a bad comparison, it's simply Slavery by Another Name like former slaves/descendant of slaves called it or worse than slavery since slaves were an investment for the owners. Slave labor was pioneered by the likes John T. Miler and J. W. Comer, former slave owners, to replace the void of slave labor with prison labor.

BB

@pandalumina said:

Wrong. Those countries that don't have penal labor means other people are paying it. THis shifts it so the people who caused the the cost in the first place where it should be and not to other people who who's burden will be less because some asshole thought it was ok to break the law.

Since prisoners are not considered workers so they are not treated as workers/people with rights and protections workers are entitled to outside of prison. Which akin them to slaves by treating them less than human, though there's a difference in treatment with prisoners and slaves that I mention at the end of this post.

Accept they are payed and treated as workers as well as prisoners. You want to say they should be treated better that's another argument but not a slavery one. Especially when there is a big difference in how they're treated and rights that they still have even if some others are suspended unlike a slave. Not to mention you can legislate for better treatment for prisoners but not for slaves. A slave is just a slave and does not have any of these avenues. You can do anything you want to a slave, you cannot with a prisoner otherwise you get in trouble yourself. We just had a case where a judge was put in prison for a scheme with a private prison to send people to jail for pay. One reason why i'm against private prisons and why slavery this isn't slavery. It's corruption.

Under slavery you can freely abort a baby at any stage. Not to mention kill any born baby, child, or adult.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I fail to see why abortion is worse when slavery has everything abortion has and more.

Edit: Someone told me I sound like I'm giving off an attitude in this post. I assure I am not. I just often come off as giving attitude when I'm not intending too.

I'm pro-choice so slavery.

Slavery

First of all, slavery is far worse.
Second of all, why is Abortion assumed to be bad? It's a women's body it's their choice if you don't like it don't abort then

I agree.

I find it funny when people say that it's ok to kill someone to stop them from being inside your body even though they were responsible for it being there in the first place. Let's say if I invited someone to my boat for a ride, and while I'm in the middle of the ocean with them on my boat, it it ok if I suddenly kick them out of the boat into the ocean full of sharks? I mean it's my boat after all?

Also a fetus is a alive otherwise it wouldn't be growing.

Murdering someone is worse than enslaving someone. Murdering a baby is far worse than enslaving someone.

Why is slavery assumed to be bad? After all, it's my body, I should be able to enslave others with it.

A boat is not a body. It's much less personal and less problematic for someone to be inside your boat than your body. If you ask someone to join you in your boat on a trip into the ocean, you are making an agreement with them, that you will bring them back to shore safely. No such agreement exists with the fetus, or with its father, because the majority of pregnancies are unintentional. Furthermore, if a passenger on your boat attacks your body, then you can defend yourself against them.

Alive doesn't matter, conscious matters. Plants are alive and growing too, but our morality does not apply to them because they can't suffer, and neither can a fetus, until a certain stage in development.

Contraception is not always effective, even if done right. And if you factor in human error, its effectiveness decreases even further. Most people that have abortions claim to have used contraception.

Also, rape exists, as do things like stealthing, where it's really out of the woman's control. Clearly, even by your standard, there are unintentional pregnancies.

What's the difference between preventing a human from being born through contraception, and preventing a human from being born through abortion? In both cases, there is no conscious entity that's being harmed.

Whoah, careful with this rhetoric, it does not lead to good places.

Again, there is future potential being wasted with contraception too. I just don't think it matters more than the life and autonomy of existing people.

What exactly is an issue with that?

If you were raped, you can go under, get a C section, and adopt the baby away without ever seeing it. You literally go asleep with a big belly, and wake up no longer pregnant, with the child gone forever from your life, never knowing it, with a basically invisible scar that fits your bikini, which is far inferior health complication than a very invasive procedure that abortion is and the following post-abortion depression syndrome. In short, by adopting the child away you can do almost exactly the same as abortion, with only real difference being less significant medical consequences, and most importantly, the baby being still alive and making some family that can't have kids happy. It really isn't a problem for a woman.

You know what IS a problem though? You, killing a child, for the crime of its father. And a rape isn't even punished with capital punishment in vast majority of the world either. So how would you like if I went up to you, showed you a clip of your dad pulling a gun and stealing someone's wallet and said to you - see? You're father is a thug and a criminal, so now, the right thing to do here is for me to cut you to pieces and throw you into garbage. Look, I brought an axe!

Absurd. This really is a non-argument.

An even funnier assumption is that women's, or anyone's body for that matter, is really their own in literal sense. You can't use certain drugs in most countries. You can't use alcohol until certain age. You can't have sex until you hit puberty or reach certain age. You can't watch movies above PG until certain age. There are hundreds of regulations that we accept as a society that restrict our bodies from doing harm to ourselves and others. It's just funny to me that we only want to enforce that view when it comes to KILLING BABIES (yes, a fetus inside a woman is a baby before its born. It really is very hard to mistake THIS:

for a kidney or any other organ. It has its own blood, its own DNA, it's own heart rate, even its own brainwaves (consciousness) develop around week 6, before most woman are even aware of pregnancy. The propaganda around the subject is pretty insane. Especially that when a woman that WANTS her pregnancy to develop is assaulted and killed, the killer is charged for double homicide. In other words, if you want the baby, you treat it like a human legally and in every other way too, you sign to it, caress your belly, tell your friends about the name and sex of the baby, you laugh and cry from joy when it kicks you from the inside or gets the hiccups, you care for it and treat it like a human... But if you don't want it, you just cut it to pieces and throw into medical waste. This is the same double standard that was the cause of racism and slavery in the past. Because people of color were believed to be less evolved and not yet human, you can do whatever you want with them. And now, because the baby is less developed and not yet human, you can do whatever you want with it. Ridiculous.

@sylviaanimenerd said:

@mirin2248 said:

@darthor said:

First of all, slavery is far worse.

Second of all, why is Abortion assumed to be bad? It's a women's body it's their choice if you don't like it don't abort then

Why is slavery assumed to be bad? After all, it's my body, I should be able to enslave others with it.

An even funnier assumption is that women's, or anyone's body for that matter, is really their own in literal sense. You can't use certain drugs in most countries. You can't use alcohol until certain age. You can't have sex until you hit puberty or reach certain age. You can't watch movies above PG until certain age. There are hundreds of regulations that we accept as a society that restrict our bodies from doing harm to ourselves and others. It's just funny to me that we only want to enforce that view when it comes to KILLING BABIES (yes, a fetus inside a woman is a baby before its born. It really is very hard to mistake THIS:

for a kidney or any other organ. It has its own blood, its own DNA, it's own heart rate, even its own brainwaves (consciousness) develop around week 6, before most woman are even aware of pregnancy. The propaganda around the subject is pretty insane. Especially that when a woman that WANTS her pregnancy to develop is assaulted and killed, the killer is charged for double homicide. In other words, if you want the baby, you treat it like a human legally and in every other way too, you sign to it, caress your belly, tell your friends about the name and sex of the baby, you laugh and cry from joy when it kicks you from the inside or gets the hiccups, you care for it and treat it like a human... But if you don't want it, you just cut it to pieces and throw into medical waste. This is the same double standard that was the cause of racism and slavery in the past. Because people of color were believed to be less evolved and not yet human, you can do whatever you want with them. And now, because the baby is less developed and not yet human, you can do whatever you want with it. Ridiculous.

Oh and the women who are killed in pregnancy's life doesn't matter? The women living in poverty who are starving and don't have resources to raise the baby doesn't matter?? You do realize for mothers who are relatively poor and can't access the healthcare resources we can are likely to be killed in pregnancy right? And they're raped and they don't want the babies. Even if I don't argue with you based on whether fetuses are lives, you are disregarding the lives of many people who don't have access to basic resources and force them to raise a baby with the potential risk of dying before then.

OH and I don't wanna debate about this I'm not living in the USA rn anyways so this doesn't affect me in any way plus when I do move back I'll be going to California but yea

No offense btw this is all my personal opinion u can hav ur own opinions I don't care

You are making an unwarranted assumption that everyone who engages in sex knows everything about contraception, which is absolutely not the case. A lot of young people having sex have no idea what they are doing, that is just a fact. You can advise an individual to "do the reaserch" and "not rush into it", and that's fine. But when dealing with millions of people, that just doesn't work, as far as reducing unwanted pregnancies is concerned.

Everybody makes mistakes, that's human nature. You would (presumably) not argue that a cancer patient should be denied treatment because they are a smoker. Or that a poor swimmer should be left to drown because they chose to jump in the pool. Or that a drug addict should not get help because they put themselves in that position. People make bad choices all the time, they don't need to be stuck with easily reversible consequences because some holier than thou person decided that they deserve it. They need effective solutions, and luckily, our medicine is good enough to provide them.

Then you say that even the people who did everything right should still suffer the consequences of the wrong choices they didn't even make. That's just wrong.

Adoption is not a solution. In the US, more than 250,000 kids are placed in foster care each year. Whereas, only about 135,000 are adopted annually, almost half of which is not even from the foster system. Now, there are more than 600,000 abortions a year in the US. That's more people than there are in foster care right now (424,000). The system simply can't handle this many extra people, no matter what any SCOTUS justice says.

Conception is a completely arbitrary line to draw. A zygote is not a person. There is no reason for us to care about its existence, other than its future potential (which the separated sex cells also have). From the perspective of the fetus, it makes no difference whether it was aborted or contracepted. It will never know either way, because it lacks a conscious experience.

That woman chose to keep the baby, that was her decision. Not everyone is going to make that decision and that should be respected.

I don't think I need to say anything here.

@last0fth3risen:

Adoption is not a solution. In the US, more than 250,000 kids are placed in foster care each year. Whereas, only about 135,000 are adopted annually, almost half of which is not even from the foster system. Now, there are more than 600,000 abortions a year in the US. That's more people than there are in foster care right now (424,000). The system simply can't handle this many extra people, no matter what any SCOTUS justice says.

Only 1 in 10 mothers who are denied abortion choose adoption, and those babies don't get placed in foster care - they go through a private agency where they all get adopted very quickly. The families waiting to adopt far outnumber the children in need of adoption, but the issue is that only a small portion of those families are interested in the 8 year olds in foster care. Infants, on the other hand, are extremely sought after, so the mother actually gets to handpick the adoptive family she thinks is best for her baby.

Bruh.

It's Slavery that's worse.

Idc what ol girl is doing with her body across the street and I don't remember anything from when I was a fetus so honestly wouldn't matter if I had been aborted.

(Of note: I have a slight issue when your trying to abort at 6+ months preggo. Like how you not know you pregnant at that point pretty much a fully formed babies. Then again not my body)

But should that count in the argument. Do you consider killing a slave murder, if you do, then should that really be conflated with slavery by itself.

I'm pro choice which makes this a ridiculously easy choice for me. Slavery is much worse.

As for the abortion debate, it's unfortunately kinda pointless. Nobody who thinks of abortion as baby murder for convenience is coming down off that hill. I think they also ignore the difficult position women often find themselves in before having an abortion. I value bodily autonomy, and I find it a little unusual when the pro life side frames pregnancy after "deciding" to have sex as a "consequence." If you're pro life, it seems like you should be arguing about how precious life is, but that framing of consequences just makes it sound like the baby or pregnancy are a "punishment" for sleeping around. Rubs me the wrong way and seems logically contradictory to the stated goal, imo. Sex is one of the best parts of life, not just for reproduction. If you have an unintended pregnancy, I think it's a result of a mistake by definition, otherwise, the pregnancy would have been planned. Sometimes the best option to that mistake is an abortion. My take anyway.

It would count towards the argument because if you were going through all the reasons of why slavery is bad the allowance killing would be one of them. Killing is one action among the group of what slavery encompasses.

Lotta reasons why people could abort tbh (rape, medical reasons, safety etc). It just kinda seems that abortion is glorified to the point where if you act dumb (one or both parties), abortion becomes a get-out-of-jail free card for people that do not want to be responsible for their actions. Other than that, slavery was/is worse imo.

@eredin12said:

It's not up to you to decide what everyone "has to" and "doesn't have to" know. People are different. Some grow up in conservative families, where it's taboo to even ask questions about sex, some get answers from the wrong sources, and fall under bad influences, some don't even think about it that hard. It's very naive to assume that everyone has access to the same information, and is equally likely to seek it out.

Millions of people have done drugs. Are they all just stupid in your estimation? Or could their behavior be influenced by circumstances? Doing drugs may be unthinkable to you, but you can't expect everyone to have the same perspective. Those mistakes are far more common that you make them seem, and it's really not a matter of how smart you are.

You are not advocating for "basic morality", you are advocating for people to be punished with what can be described as literal torture for daring to have sex for pleasure. You said that even if they used birth control and it failed, they should still be forced to pay the price, because they are somehow responsible. That's without question punishing the innocent.

Childbirth hurts. Like a lot. It's some of the greatest pain many people ever experience. Pregnancy also permanently alters your body. And this doesn't get talked about enough, but there are studies showing that unwanted pregnancies can give people PTSD. No one should be subjected to any of that against their will.

Consciousness is exactly what gives life value. Without it, you as a person don't exist. What will happen in the future may or may not happen, we can't obsess over it to the point of ignoring our present needs. If potential life really outweighed the "comfort" of the woman, then rape would be justified, because it maximizes potential life. But obvioualy you don't think that, so you conveniently draw the line at conception (even though there is no good reason to do so). You say, that's when life begins but it doesn't. Two living things combine at conception. Whether it goes any further depends on the woman, as it's happening in her body. And it doesn't harm anyone, if she chooses to stop it, because there is no one to harm. Not yet. A woman's choice to not have sex results in the exact same outcome for the child, as her choice to have an abortion. Zero distinction from the child's perspective. So why is one less moral than the other?