"Veganism: Why it is nothing more than a pile of hypocrisy" - My Rebuttal

@heatblaze123:

Literally everything causes cancer or a link to some kind of illness, even some vegetables can. like potatoes have links to type 2 diabetes and obesity. Some peppers contain alkaloid and solanine that can disrupt nerve function and lead to twitching, convulsing and trembling. If you're that concerned than I don't know how you sleep at night.

I don't think there's a lot of hard science to support potatoes, a whole vegetables, causing obesity and diabetes. If peppers can cause that it must be incredibly rare, I'd need to see some context for it.

Dude, what I'm telling you is pretty much unanimous in the scientific literature, and is now slowly but steadily being acknowledged by government: meat is killing us. Potatoes and peppers are not killing us. I sleep at night just fine.

Chicken and some fish are lower in fat and cholesterol than red meat.

Right, but they still have too much cholesterol. There's no good amount of it to eat. It's still going to raise your blood pressure.

Healthy eating and exercise keeps you alive. You're not going to drop dead at a young age if you eat a well balanced omnivore diet. Like I said before, our bodies evolved for this, our ancestors survived on this diet.

Our ancestors lived long enough to reproduce and pass on their genes, while they lived in a nigh-constant state of famine, in a battle for survival. Their life expectancy would be incredibly low compared to today.

Nowadays medicine keeps us alive so long we can live to suffer chronic disease, like heart disease and cancer. Our bodies evolved to tolerate animal foods, and not much past that. We're actually better suited for a plant-based style of eating, if not entirely, then at least mostly. Healthy eating and exercise will help, but here's the thing: why not eat a diet of foods that you can eat as much of as you want without ill-health? Nobody would ever advise you lower your consumption of whole plant foods, like fruits, vegetables, grains, legumes etc, in case you get ill. These foods don't cause sickness. But if you ate an equivalent amount of meat, you would become ill - it's not just because of excess. It's because the stuff just isn't good for us.

A CaV where everyone who has an opinion on the matter ignores the rules of CaV...

@i_like_swords: Is your veganism based on morality or health benefits? Because it started off sounding like a morality argument, but now it's leaning more towards health.

The morality argument leans on animal cruelty, which I don't mind people protesting. However, eating meat doesn't necessarily connect with cruelty. An animal that is shot dead on the spot without any pain for food isn't cruel, (to most, anyway). Those who protest animal cruelty are better off protesting the procedures of raising the animals rather than the consumption of meat itself.

If you're debating the health cons, that comes down to personal choice. Telling a smoker that smoking is bad for them won't do anything but piss them off. If you feel healthier when you're a vegan, then be a vegan. It's not really worth the effort to try to get the entire world to emulate your diet/lifestyle/ideals.

@logy5000: I think they are both valid arguments. I got into it for the ethics.

Killing an animal is inherently cruel. These are incredibly intelligent, emotional animals, just as smart as your pet dog if you have one, who we forcibly breed just to fatten up and kill. It's a double standard, we wouldn't accept that treatment for ourselves or our pets, no matter how nicely we are treated leading up to our death. Also, the way we artifically inseminate these animals is disgusting and invasive.

To make matters worse, the vast majority of meat consumed is from factory farms. So the only logical conclusion for me is to have a bit of discipline and conviction and just eat something else.

With all due respect, unless you are actually doing something about animal welfare, I don't think you have much of a leg to stand on regarding effective activism. The current paradigm is working just fine, interest in veganism is soaring at a ridiculous rate.

lots of people get into it for health too.i don't mind sharing the facts for the few who will listen. I'm aware the average human doesn't really understand the gravity of nutrition.

@i_like_swords: are you against the consumption and breeding of insects as well?

@fitnesstribesman13: I think that would be a much lesser evil and better for the environment. I wouldn't eat them personally.

@i_like_swords: Would you not eat them for the same reasons you wouldn't consume your typical meat? I hear bugs are definitely more nutritious pound for pound and seems like there's little to no ethical regard of insects in general. There's plenty of other benefits it has over raising livestock of course for meat to where it's being considered as a replacement. Unfortunately, Western culture doesn't exactly find insects appetizing at all and are typically seen with disgust. I wouldn't mind though, as long as they aren't roaches who I consider the filthiest, ugliest and most disgusting bug of all. Hell, I've considered raising earthworms not just for agriculture, but for personal consumption as well. I hear there are bugs that are comparable to the taste of some typical meat delicacies, such as a type of larvae compared to bacon seasoned with lemon. They could be domesticated and selectively bread for taste as well, so it could become a thing in the future.

@fitnesstribesman13: The limited amount of sentience, pain and consciousness an insect can experience would be enough to prevent me from deliberately farming them just to kill them. I don't like playing god with the lives of others if I can help it, be they big or small. I'm sure there are beings out there who would look upon human beings like insects, because of how primitive we are compared to them, and I doubt that's a good enough reason to forfeit up our lives to them.

I also do not see them as being terribly appetising, nor am I sure that having them in your diet full-time is really healthy. I think I'd rather stick with healthier and simpler options like legumes.

Any social justice advocacy that promotes "arguments" based on appealing to emotion are often proven to be just acts of moral elitism and hypocrisy.

Not really... I'm asking we treat pigs the same way we treat dogs, i.e don't forcibly breed them, kill them and eat them. It's hardly an unreasonable request. Ethics follow a logical system, not a blind appeal to emotion, though, to sever the emotional aspect of morality entirely is also foolish. It's plainly obvious that we base our morals on the golden rule: do onto others how you would want to be treated. We can empathise with each other, so we treat each other well.

If we can extend this to cats and dogs, and it's plainly evident that we can, why not extend it to equally intelligent, pain-feeling animals like cows, pigs and chickens?

I've found that 80% of the responses in this thread have been some variation of an ad hominem attack on the non-corporeal stereotypical "vegan SJW elitist jerk", rather than an attempt at tackling the substance of the issue. It's not that vegans are moral elitists, it's that frankly, most of you have displayed an inability to engage with the topic, and find it easier to attack the bearer of bad news directly.

Am I wrong? Or can you look back on this thread and see nothing but irrelevant commentary about "let me live my life, and you live yours", "hurdur bacon" or "man, vegans are annoying!"? Yes, if you look back, that is essentially all that you see.

@i_like_swords:

Not really... I'm asking we treat pigs the same way we treat dogs, i.e don't forcibly breed them, kill them and eat them. It's hardly an unreasonable request.

That fault in your argument is that you failed to understand that humans breed animals for different practical purposes to satisfy different practical human needs.

Your arguments are based of a very narrow point of view of human condition.

One that is already biased to satisfy one's personal emotion-based belief system and decidedly ignores the other end of the issues.

I've found that 80% of the responses in this thread have been some variation of an ad hominem attack on the non-corporeal stereotypical "vegan SJW elitist jerk",

Well that's a logical response to an argument with a premise that generally translate to my "moral/ethics is more superior and acceptable than yours - because muh feelings trumps all".

@mimisalome:

That fault in your argument is that you failed to understand that humans breed animals for different practical purposes to satisfy different practical human needs.

No, I understand why we kill animals for meat. Just like I understand why certain breeds of dogs were bred for certain purposes. That doesn't justify doing it. If, say in the UK, someone wanted to open a up a dog meat business, they would be socially annihilated in a day, and it would never take off. There are laws protecting dogs from the kind of treatment that is typical of farm animals. That's a double standard, and illogical. We don't need to eat them. We can eat something else.

Your arguments are based of a very narrow point of view of human condition.

One that is already biased to satisfy one's personal emotion-based belief system and decidedly ignores the other end of the issues

Why don't you elaborate? You know, instead of talking shit and not making any substantial arguments?

Well that's a logical response to an argument with a premise that generally translate to my "moral/ethics is more superior and acceptable than yours - because muh feelings trumps all".

You can frame anyone's argument stupidly, that doesn't make it stupid. You haven't addressed any of my points, so I'm going to take your post as a knee-jerk reaction to being faced with - gasp - a bit of criticism, which you clearly can't handle.

On another note, I do find Vegans are also the sort of people that tell me that

A) I shouldn't be allowed to have pets

B) Feeding my pets real meat is some kind of sin

I feel like its a stereotype but its happened twice at this point

Actually, the vast majority of vegans are pro-pet. I know this because whenever the issue is raised on various vegan social media groups, the ratio of support for pets is literally 10x the amount that is received by those making anti-pet arguments.

I don't understand the incessant need to categorise "vegans as the type of people who x" - like regular people, they come in all shapes and sizes. Also, being against, or at least critical of, pet ownership isn't inherently an invalid stance. There's tons of ethical issues with owning a pet, especially if you are a vegan. The obvious one being: why are you caring for a dog with such devotion while feeding equally intelligent animals like cows and pigs to it? Why does the dog get elevated privilege?

We should just eat vegans instead

I'm never going vegan because meat taste good

@i_like_swords: Is the battle over? It doesn't seem like Noob responded to every point but I wanted to wait until the end before I gave this a read.

This is an absolutely brilliant thread! One of the best in terms of content and quality of arguments I've encountered. Not to mention, about one of the most significant and controversial topics.

@i_like_swords: that would be a great bummer, unless they deem us as intelligent enough, especially since we could realize whether or not we’re being bred for their benefit. The animals we breed usually can’t comprehend how we use them for our benefit.

An interesting thought came to me... What if we genetically modified and breed the all intelligence, sense of pain, and emotions out of the animals we use for our benefit? Would you believe the ethical arguments still remain valid?

Insects aren’t unhealthy at all last time I checked and could match or surpass plant-based food in some nutritional aspects, especially protein. Plus, they lack cholesterol. You do need cholesterol though, but not too much of it of course.

They're called plants.

You get plenty of protein from plants. You don't need to eat any dietary cholesterol otherwise the millions of vegans would have died off.

Anti-Vegan argument....

Bacon

@i_like_swords: If the animals we breed lose all of those, that wouldn’t be enough to classify them as plants. There are plenty of animals that have little to no intelligence, pain and emotions at all, such as sponges, Star fish, sea anemones, etc... They would still be considered animals and have the same meat.

That’s because your body can produce it’s own cholesterol, thus vegans can still remain completely healthy. However, plants can still promote cholesterol production so vegans don’t need to worry about becoming deficient in cholesterol.

Meat though tastes good, what can u do ;)

What I'm saying is, it's much easier to just eat kidney beans instead of genetically breeding animals to have zero sentience. Call me crazy...

@i_like_swords: it would just be useful in not having to take ethical considerations of breeding animals, especially when so many folks love meats. It doesn’t have to just all be about consumption, but for animal testing as well where ethics would no longer be a concern as well.

I think most people would call you crazy. Kidney beans are not meat... so no, it is not easier if you want to eat... meat.

If ethics are important to you, why not eat plants until the day comes where you can eat meat from non-sentient animals?

@i_like_swords: I was just referring to others who do take such ethical considerations that seriously. I don’t take them that seriously when it comes to animals, but I’d still support breeding those animals we use into mindless beings instead. It would benefit animal agriculturalists too as they won’t have to worry about advertising and adopting more ethical treatment for animals, thus granting them higher profits.

@fitnesstribesman13: So are you saying you don't care about the ethics of harming animals, or that you just don't care enough to give up eating meat?

@i_like_swords: I’m not interested in debating my ethical concerns this moment.

What? I'll eat cat and dog, shit, I'll eat human being as long as it cooked right and smells good. You're ethical argument all comes down to if we should feel bad for pigs and stuff. And i Do. I even felt bad for plants, I've painted with the colors of the wind before. Trust me, I feel bad for plants, plants are really the ones getting the short end of the stick here.

But I don't feel like doing anything about it, and neither do you, except stop eating meat. Only person that helps is yourself.

...

@erik_soong: What? Got a problem with that?

Freakin SJW elitist man, always crapping my style and whatnot.

@cor_tsar: My bad. I shouldn't assume your culture. Typical SJW mistake.

@erik_soong: Haha! This guy.

Not really

It wouldn't be all that difficult to essentially produce lobotomized animals that are like that from birth. And your freaking kidding yourself if you think Fish, insects Bees or whatever are at all remotely comparable to what we define as sentiment or smart.

Well the thing is most people don't really give a shit about this sort of ethics and tbh they aren't morally required to. Even animals have these double standards too if you can believe it. Dogs such as Dobermans or Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs with a powerful prey drive can be perfectly friendly with a pet cat or toy dog and even have a powerful urge to protect them as if family, but then kill the literal exact same thing that runs past them on the street. Predators feel no remorse for their prey and there is a damn good evolutionary reason for it. This shit is programmed into our brain and has been there far longer than any form of sympathy we might have

Thing is, I can tell you for a fact that Factory farms aren't sustainable, especially cattle which is why I have cut the majority of beef from my diet (still might have a steak now and again when out for dinner at a steakhouse). But neither is veganism when you look at it from a global scale. Cropland is a valuable resource for the creation of bioplastics, biofuel and other plant based food (rice, and wheat mainly) that will become very important in the future and we can't afford to waste it on protein growth when there are far more effective options. Population growth basically invalidates a worldwide transition to vegan diets being at all a viable thing

In the future I see pork/beef becoming a luxary with fish and insects becoming the staple source of protein across the world unless we can radically reduce world population somehow.

Also question out of curiosity. If a moose gets hit on the rode by a car, is it wrong to eat the meat from the Mose when it would otherwise go to waste? Cause I have a fridge full of moose meat right now and thats how I got it. Animal activist friends have told me that this is an incorrect thing to do, so what is your opinion on that?

@decaf_wizard:

Not really

It wouldn't be all that difficult to essentially produce lobotomized animals that are like that from birth. And your freaking kidding yourself if you think Fish, insects Bees or whatever are at all remotely comparable to what we define as sentiment or smart.

This isn't even worth responding to, frankly. Also, I didn't say fish or insects are comparable to other animals. But they can feel pain and experience life to some extent.

Well the thing is most people don't really give a shit about this sort of ethics and tbh they aren't morally required to.

Well since we're talking about ethics, that's an immediate forfeit. "I don't give a shit" is essentially a non-argument.

With your argument, by the way, a far more advanced alien species could mass-produce human beings in factory farms, treat us however they want, and then throw up their hands and go "welp, who gives a shit" when someone mentions how we feel pain.

Even animals have these double standards too if you can believe it.

Not really. Animals can't even comprehend ethics or basic reasoning, so you can't ask them to abide by ethics. Human beings can. Just because a far less intelligent animal does something, like say, kill their own children and eat them, or rape members of it's own species... that hardly lets us off the hook for doing it.

This shit is programmed into our brain and has been there far longer than any form of sympathy we might have

We can talk about evolutionary psychology all day, and how hunting as human beings is less to do with raw predatory instincts, ripping animals open and eating their live flesh, but is actually attributed to our superior intelligence and social skills - we hunted in groups - but that is besides the point. Hunting is a recreational activity in 2017. You buy all of your beef from a supermarket, which got it's beef from a supplier who killed defenceless cows in a slaughterhouse, cows who were brought into the world via a farmer placing his hand inside the rectum of the cow in order to coax open her genitilia and forcibly impregnate her with bull semen, bull semen that was forcibly extracted from a bull.

Tell me, what does any of that have to do with "programming?" Again, terrible excuse.

Thing is, I can tell you for a fact that Factory farms aren't sustainable, especially cattle which is why I have cut the majority of beef from my diet (still might have a steak now and again when out for dinner at a steakhouse). But neither is veganism when you look at it from a global scale.

Prove it.

Cropland is a valuable resource for the creation of bioplastics, biofuel and other plant based food (rice, and wheat mainly) that will become very important in the future and we can't afford to waste it on protein growth when there are far more effective options.

We currently produce enough crops to feed 15 billion human beings, but we feed the majority of it to animals, who we then eat, effectively wasting ten times the potential energy we could have gotten from the food. Look up "feed conversion ratio."

Population growth basically invalidates a worldwide transition to vegan diets being at all a viable thing

Based on what?

In the future I see pork/beef becoming a luxary with fish and insects becoming the staple source of protein across the world unless we can radically reduce world population somehow.

You're talking about protein as if it's some mystery nutrient we're all struggling to find. There's no such thing as a protein deficiency outside of simply starving to death. Typically, if you're eating enough food, you're getting enough protein. You only need about 40-60g a day on average, depending on your body type. I can get up to 100 grams eating 2500 calories.

As I pointed out in this thread, all of the world-leading nutritional organisations concur that eating a vegan diet is adequate for all stages of life, including pregnancy, childhood and for athletes, and also helps to prevent many common lifestyle diseases.

@i_like_swords:

This isn't even worth responding to, frankly

Why not. I guarantee that with proper funding we could create lobotomized animals within a few years if there was any actual reason to

Well since we're talking about ethics, that's an immediate forfeit. "I don't give a shit" is essentially a non-argument.

With your argument, by the way, a far more advanced alien species could mass-produce human beings in factory farms, treat us however they want, and then throw up their hands and go "welp, who gives a shit" when someone mentions how we feel pain.

Why don't you get that humans are sentient and most food animals aren't? They aren't even self aware for the most part disregarding a couple dozen outliers. Comparing humans to cows is unimaginably stupid

Not really. Animals can't even comprehend ethics or basic reasoning, so you can't ask them to abide by ethics. Human beings can. Just because a far less intelligent animal does something, like say, kill their own children and eat them, or rape members of it's own species... that hardly lets us off the hook for doing it.

Humans are animals. Animals rape for the same reasons humans do. Animals kill for the same reasons humans do (discounting modern stuff like for money) some animals kill their own humans when stressed just like some humans do. And animals do have basic reasoning skills and this has been demonstrated multiple times by multiple studies. Wrong again

Prove it.

Prove it isn't an argument. But Ok. Here is one of numerous studies I could pull up. Again I do know what I am talking about in this field.

https://www.elementascience.org/articles/10.12952/journal.elementa.000116/

We currently produce enough crops to feed 15 billion human beings, but we feed the majority of it to animals, who we then eat, effectively wasting ten times the potential energy we could have gotten from the food. Look up "feed conversion ratio."

I am fully aware yes. But that doesn't really change what I am talking about and the study above addresses that

You're talking about protein as if it's some mystery nutrient we're all struggling to find. There's no such thing as a protein deficiency outside of simply starving to death. Typically, if you're eating enough food, you're getting enough protein. You only need about 40-60g a day on average, depending on your body type. I can get up to 100 grams eating 2500 calories.

Yea....thats a crock of shit. You have to specifically tailor a vegan diet to avoid protein deficiently. I have seen medical cases of protein deficiency among members of my own family

As I pointed out in this thread, all of the world-leading nutritional organisations concur that eating a vegan diet is adequate for all stages of life, including pregnancy, childhood and for athletes, and also helps to prevent many common lifestyle diseases.

So? Your point? Studies also show that certain vegetarian and alternative protein diets do exactly the same thing

@decaf_wizard:

Why not. I guarantee that with proper funding we could create lobotomized animals within a few years if there was any actual reason to

And this funding, will this be in addition to the massive government subsidies the meat industry already receives to cover it's own debts? Sounds super realistic man.

Seriously. Opening up a can of kidney beans isn't so scary. It's much easier than lobotomising cows, believe it or not.

Why don't you get that humans are sentient and most food animals aren't? They aren't even self aware for the most part disregarding a couple dozen outliers. Comparing humans to cows is unimaginably stupid

Sentient means to have perception, feeling and senses. The notion that a bird, cow or a pig, pigs being smarter than dogs, aren't sentient, is the single stupidest thing I have heard all month. I also never compared human beings to cows. I merely value cows enough not to kill them when I can eat something else.

Humans are animals. Animals rape for the same reasons humans do. Animals kill for the same reasons humans do (discounting modern stuff like for money) some animals kill their own humans when stressed just like some humans do. And animals do have basic reasoning skills and this has been demonstrated multiple times by multiple studies. Wrong again

So humans are animals, humans can do anything animals do? You just got done explaining how farm animals are so stupid they aren't even sentient, and now you're telling me that you base your life decisions on the behaviour of such stupid animals? Instead of basing your ethics on logic and reason?

By basic reasoning I meant concepts like right and wrong: ethics. Animals are smart, smart enough to feel excruciating pain, but not smart enough to understand ethics. So I know it might be a revolutionary concept for you, but here's an idea: let's use our superior brains to base our ethics not on the behaviour of less intelligent animals, but on reason. And reason follows that hurting an animal who can feel excruciating pain when we don't need to is cruel.

Prove it isn't an argument. But Ok. Here is one of numerous studies I could pull up. Again I do know what I am talking about in this field.

You made a claim, I asked you to back it up. Debating 101 champ.

Nothing in that study proves that veganism is "unsustainable" - all it pointed out was, diets light in meat consumption and heavy on plant consumption can make use of grazing land unsuitable for crops, which can produce more food. More doesn't mean one is sustainable and one isn't.

What the study doesn't address is the simple fact that we already produce twice the amount of food we need to feed the human species. So even if we could squeeze out more food by making use of grazing land, it doesn't mean we need to. We would still have more food than we need. And that doesn't account for issues such as greenhouse gas emissions caused by cattle, or waste management.

I am fully aware yes. But that doesn't really change what I am talking about and the study above addresses that

Elaborate.

Yea....thats a crock of shit. You have to specifically tailor a vegan diet to avoid protein deficiently. I have seen medical cases of protein deficiency among members of my own family

Nice anecdote.

So? Your point? Studies also show that certain vegetarian and alternative protein diets do exactly the same thing

My point being that there is no such thing as a protein deficiency, and the vegan diet contains plenty of protein. Protein originates in plants, if you weren't aware.

@i_like_swords:

And this funding, will this be in addition to the massive government subsidies the meat industry already receives to cover it's own debts? Sounds super realistic man.

Seriously. Opening up a can of kidney beans isn't so scary. It's much easier than lobotomising cows, believe it or not.

You overestimate the amount of funding it would take.

Easier sure. But nowhere near as fun. I haven't got the opportunity to use CRISPER yet, so I would love to be apart of it

Sentient means to have perception, feeling and senses. The notion that a bird, cow or a pig, pigs being smarter than dogs, aren't sentient, is the single stupidest thing I have heard all month. I also never compared human beings to cows. I merely value cows enough not to kill them when I can eat something else.

Sentient isn't to have perception feeling and senses. It the ability of something to have subjective perceptual experiences. Sentience is different from the ability to perceive physical senses and think. A freaking clam or worm can do those in a very simple sense. But actually sentient was the wrong word to use there. And some food animals like insects and fish are barely sentient even by your description

I value cows enough to give them a good life before eating them.

So humans are animals, humans can do anything animals do? You just got done explaining how farm animals are so stupid they aren't even sentient, and now you're telling me that you base your life decisions on the behaviour of such stupid animals? Instead of basing your ethics on logic and reason?

Nice misrepresentation. Humans are self aware, extremely intelligent animals. But we are still animals and behave like them, just on a more sophisticated level. On that note, I believe any animal that can be proven to be self aware should be afforded a level of legal rights defending them

By basic reasoning I meant concepts like right and wrong: ethics. Animals are smart, smart enough to feel excruciating pain, but not smart enough to understand ethics. So I know it might be a revolutionary concept for you, but here's an idea: let's use our superior brains to base our ethics not on the behaviour of less intelligent animals, but on reason. And reason follows that hurting an animal who can feel excruciating pain when we don't need to is cruel.

Something can only suffer if it is sentient. Feeling the sensation of pain does not equate to suffering. I believe many animals are not sentient. But thats besides the point. Animals who are farmed for food do not have to feel excruciating pain you know. I fully support ethical farming of animals for food.

Nothing in that study proves that veganism is "unsustainable" - all it pointed out was, diets light in meat consumption and heavy on plant consumption can make use of grazing land unsuitable for crops, which can produce more food. More doesn't mean one is sustainable and one isn't.

What the study doesn't address is the simple fact that we already produce twice the amount of food we need to feed the human species. So even if we could squeeze out more food by making use of grazing land, it doesn't mean we need to. We would still have more food than we need. And that doesn't account for issues such as greenhouse gas emissions caused by cattle, or waste management.

Ok Ill elaborate on this. Because of climate change and growing human population (desertification, lack of water ect) as well as the need to use crops for other things in the future (bioplastic, biofuel ect) we simply cannot afford to waste resources on what is not the most efficient way of doing things. A solid example of wasted potential on a global vegan system that a good amount of free range cattle grazing land, or heck even land that could be used to fish farm or farm insects if you want to get real technical about land use, is unsuitable for growing actual crops. People don't seem to get how reliant we are going to be on our resources as the impact of our environmental screw ups start to bite us in the ass.

@decaf_wizard:

Sentient isn't to have perception feeling and senses.

Every definition I'm reading online has perception and feeling as the criteria, but I really do not care enough to argue with you about this.

It the ability of something to have subjective perceptual experiences. Sentience is different from the ability to perceive physical senses and think. A freaking clam or worm can do those in a very simple sense. But actually sentient was the wrong word to use there. And some food animals like insects and fish are barely sentient even by your description

I don't know why you keep going on about insects, as if I'm apart of the #insectlivesmatter pressure group. I'm primarily talking about cows, pigs, birds and fish, all of which are pretty damn intelligent to varying degrees, all of which feel pain, all of which we can avoid eating. It's not complicated. The same way people are outraged at the Chinese for even considering eating dogs, because we know dogs are highly emotion, smart and feel pain, all I am saying is, why not extend the same sympathies to animals that are no less emotional or capable of feeling pain than dogs? Do you think there is a meaningful difference between what happens to a dog or a cow when you attack one?

I value cows enough to give them a good life before eating them.

So you can kill any animal as long as you give it a good life first? Can you do whatever you want to an animal if you give it a good life? How does giving an animal a good life negate the fact you've just killed it? The animal has emotions, desires, cares for it's family, etc.

Also how about dogs? Give dogs a good life being cutting their heads off and eating them? Sound good?

Nice misrepresentation. Humans are self aware, extremely intelligent animals. But we are still animals and behave like them, just on a more sophisticated level. On that note, I believe any animal that can be proven to be self aware should be afforded a level of legal rights defending them

So cows, pigs and chickens then. Along with cats and dogs. You make much sense.

Oh, what am I saying. When a cow is getting stabbed it doesn't know it's getting stabbed. It's just an unsophisticated bundle of nerve clusters experiencing unwanted stimuli. Animals don't know they are being stabbed, not for reals.

Something can only suffer if it is sentient. Feeling the sensation of pain does not equate to suffering. I believe many animals are not sentient. But thats besides the point. Animals who are farmed for food do not have to feel excruciating pain you know. I fully support ethical farming of animals for food.

Describe to me the ethical way to impregnate an animal against it's will. I'll wait. Then explain to me the ethical way to kill an animal that doesn't want to die. I'll wait again.

Ok Ill elaborate on this. Because of climate change and growing human population (desertification, lack of water ect) as well as the need to use crops for other things in the future (bioplastic, biofuel ect) we simply cannot afford to waste resources on what is not the most efficient way of doing things.

Makes sense.

A solid example of wasted potential on a global vegan system that a good amount of free range cattle grazing land, or heck even land that could be used to fish farm or farm insects if you want to get real technical about land use, is unsuitable for growing actual crops.

The thing is, I doubt you have actually taken any measures to meet this increasing demand being placed on the environment. You've probably got McDonalds wrapper somewhere in your house. You probably don't buy every piece of meat you ever eat from purely grass-fed cows. You definitely eat dairy and eggs, which are stupidly unsustainable. So I'm no longer interested in being lectured on your half-baked, pseudoscientific drivel about how animals don't know they are being stabbed, and how hamburgers are so important to you that you'll say anything to keep eating them. Sorry to burst your bubble, champ, but just shitting out words isn't enough to formulate an argument. You also need to not be overflowing with shit.

People don't seem to get how reliant we are going to be on our resources as the impact of our environmental screw ups start to bite us in the ass.

Yeah, you clearly don't know the half of it.

@i_like_swords:

Every definition I'm reading online has perception and feeling as the criteria, but I really do not care enough to argue with you about this.

Exactly. Every definition you have read online. Also nice cop out

I don't know why you keep going on about insects, as if I'm apart of the #insectlivesmatter pressure group. I'm primarily talking about cows, pigs, birds and fish, all of which are pretty damn intelligent to varying degrees, all of which feel pain, all of which we can avoid eating. It's not complicated. The same way people are outraged at the Chinese for even considering eating dogs, because we know dogs are highly emotion, smart and feel pain, all I am saying is, why not extend the same sympathies to animals are no less emotional or capable of feeling pain than dogs? Do you think there is a meaningful difference between what happens to a dog or a cow when you attack one?

Why do you assume I give a shit if Chinese people eat dogs. Who am I to tell them what to eat.

Well veganism is about not eating any animal product whatsoever on the grounds that its unethical, including honey and stuff. So I mean it was kind of assumed that you wouldn't like eating insects. But I guess I misinterpreted it. Also you act like cows or pigs actually suffer when they are ethically farmed and killed for meat. Which they do not. The way they do it the cows feel nothing I can assure you. Halal/Kosher slaughter is different though. And again to feel emotion requires sentience which most food animals around the world are not.

Also slaughtering a cow equals attacking attack a cow. Kek. What a laugh. More proof you don't understand basic freaking English

So cows, pigs and chickens then. Along with cats and dogs. You make much sense.

Oh, what am I saying. When a cow is getting stabbed it doesn't know it's getting stabbed. It's just an unsophisticated bundle of nerve clusters experiencing unwanted stimuli. Animals don't know they are being stabbed, not for reals.

Oh my god. Are you actually stunned or are you misrepresenting my argument that hard. Humans CANNOT be compared to an animals in terms of brains. Cows, pigs and chickens are not self aware, nor are cats or dogs, nor are they sentient. Neither are they particularly intelligent compared to other wild animals, much less remotely comparable to even the least of the primates in terms of smarts. Chickens are actually rather stupid as far as birds go

Describe to me the ethical way to impregnate an animal against it's will. I'll wait. Then explain to me the ethical way to kill an animal that doesn't want to die. I'll wait again.

Ethically impregnate against its will.........what the hell are you on about dude.......

Put the designated bull in a god damn field with the designated cows and they will do their thing. No interference required.

As for ethically kill it. Its called do it in a way where it doesn't feel pain. Also technically wanting requires sentience which you can't prove to me cows have and have presented no evidence for. Granted you could, by all goddamn means you could. But you just aren't informed enough to actually do so. I have had this debate many times and have lost it before, but I was actually arguing with people who knew what they were talking about. This is a contested topic with a decent majority actually thinking they are sentient. In fact I myself only differ on the exact definition of sentience to make the claim that they are not.

The definition of sentient I am interested in is the philosophical definition of the word more than just the "it can feel shit and perceive shit" definition which literally applies to most forms of life including organisms like mollusks with barely more than nerve clusters for a "brain". Hell even some particularly interesting microscopic life is sentient according to that definition and I don't hear moaning about their rights. Oh and so would plants be, as they are capable of reacting to stimuli and perceive things like light. Which means not caring about plant and insect and mollusk lives makes you a damn hypocrite for eating those but not animals because of what is a flawed definition of sentient. Lastly, food animals are CERTANTLY not sapient which puts them an entire world away from humans and self aware creatures mentally. They don't have a higher thought process. They aren't physically capable of thinking the way you or I do.

The thing is, I doubt you have actually taken any measures to meet this increasing demand being placed on the environment. You've probably got McDonalds wrapper somewhere in your house. You probably don't buy every piece of meat you ever eat from purely grass-fed cows. You definitely eat dairy and eggs, which are stupidly unsustainable. So I'm no longer interested in being lectured on your half-baked, pseudoscientific drivel about how animals don't know they are being stabbed, and how hamburgers are so important to you that you'll say anything to keep eating them.

The amount of smug "holier than thou" attitude here is just completely insufferable. I don't eat beef for the most part, I don't drink milk or consume large quantities of cheese and I haven't eaten fast food in years because I actually care about my health. I buy all my meat from local farmers as I live on PEI, which is almost entirely rural. As for eggs I just don't care about them other than putting them in cake and shit.

I haven't taken any measures to meet this demand based on the environment.......well again you don't know me and are smug as freaking ever it seems. I am devoting my future career to environmental issues.

I am honestly no longer interested on your biased insufferable ranting about things you don't understand, based on nothing except google searches, a handful of people with a PhD saying something vastly different from any form of scientific consensus or flat out pseudoscientific drivel. You have offered nothing of worth to disprove me thought this entire discussion. I can back everything up I state with actual facts and studies if need be. BECAUSE I DO THIS SHIT EVERY DAY. I wouldn't be saying this shit if I didn't have something to go off of.

Sorry to burst your bubble, champ, but just shitting out words isn't enough to formulate an argument.

Which is exactly why your responses are beyond idiotic

Yeah, you clearly don't know the half of it.

Again with this smug shit. Cut it out. Don't act like you know more than me at all. Because I can guarantee unless you have a degree in environmental sciences, you probably don't. If you can somehow magically produce one of those I will concede the entire argument given you have more educational history about the topic than me. Which is technically an appeal to authority but whatever.

If this thread doesn't prove why vegans are bad then I don't know what can.

If vegans themselves admit that they are not perfect and cannot be perfect (probably buying things made by China, etc.), why are they judging people who eat meat and constantly say that they are moral priests? This is stupid.

No one cares if you’re a vegan.