And in other news, 900,000 other police officers did their job that day without making the news.
I’m stepping in here because this thread is clearly in need of a little expertise. It’s nobody’s fault. Most people don’t have police officers in their daily lives, and are only able to form their opinions based on third hand accounts from media outlets that enjoy casting aspersions on police officers. If you’re interested in a law enforcement perspective, I’ll break down what you saw in this video, and explain what the officers were thinking.
First, a little about myself. If you aren’t interested in who I am, but want to know what I have to say about the incident, skip this paragraph and move on. But I feel I should justify my use of the word “expertise.” I am an active police detective for a large police agency in the US. Since I am not a spokesperson for my agency, I’ll only describe it as one of the largest in the country, yet one of the smallest per capita. I have been with this agency since I began as a jailer in 2000. I went into the police academy in 2001. I stayed in patrol until 2009, at which point I took on a more investigative position, eventually making detective in 2016. I have a martial arts background, and am certified as an instructor for self defense, x26 taser, and slow speed driving, and I used to be part of our department’s rifle (AR-15) cadre. I’m also a proud geek, who owes a large part of where I am in life to my devotion to comics. That’s how I found comicvine. I thought I would participate in many of the discussions, but, as I can be very wordy, I don’t have as much time as I’d like to argue every topic that interests me. (By the way, Wolverine wins the first fight against Batman, but Batman wins every subsequent encounter. And yes, Thor clearly held back in his Helicarrier fight against the Hulk).
To the situation at hand, I’ll start by addressing some of the concerns that are being brought up. Then, I’ll explain what’s going on in the video. I’ll wrap things up by offering my critique of the officers’ performance, as well as how I believe I’d have handled the same situation. Yes, I would have done a few things differently.
A cop murders an unarmed guy, and it's all on video, but is still found not guilty.
In this situation, the cop is constantly yelling at the scared guy, giving him contradictory orders, and generally treating him like he's the enemy... even though the guy is clearly just scared for his life and crying. And he should be scared because there's an angry and paranoid cop with an assault rifle pointed at him, yelling threats. In the end the cop gives him orders that are pretty much guaranteed to result in a shooting, and that's what happens. "if you made a mistake I'm going to shoot you both", "put your hands straight up in the air... do not put them down for any reason", "you think you're going to fall you better fall on your face", "now crawl towards me"... !
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2017/12/08/graphic-video-shows-daniel-shaver-sobbing-and-begging-officer-for-his-life-before-2016-shooting/?utm_term=.37879f0acdd6
Bodycam video: Watch at your discretion
I think the problem here is pretty much the same as with a lot of what's going on with police in this country. They are trained as if the public is the enemy and they always need to use extreme violence. They watch videos and listen to stories about how everything around them could kill them. So it's not surprising that they go on the streets with the mentality that they're at war and have to point a gun at anything that doesnt immediately comply with everything they say.
Here, the cop should have realized that this guy was no threat. He could simply have told him to get down and then walked over and cuffed him. Why all the screaming and threats? Any sane person facing this cop would probably not be thinking clearly and be scared out of his or her mind. Of course the person is not going to follow the instructions perfectly, and especially so when the instructions are contradictory. "put your hands up" and then "crawl towards me"? The cop was basically giving him orders to do something that he already said would result in a shooting. "If you make a mistake there's a very severe possibility that you're both going to get shot".. Really? What kind of f***ing attitude is that?
What happened to protect and to serve? This cop was there with the intent to get into a gun fight. Everything about his attitude says that he has some kind of paranoia or anger issues. And he murdered a guy and now gets away with it. What is the intensive for other cops to do any different when they know they can basically murder an unarmed, scared, crying guy, on video, and walk away free.
You seem to be concerned about his tone, leading you to describe him as “angry and paranoid.” So I ask you, how should someone who may or may not have a gun, and may or may not be willing to use it against you, be addressed? It seems that you might be more appreciative of a soft-spoken, tactful approach. It’s possible that if you were the one the officer was addressing, you might respond better to that, but that’s not the case for everybody. Some people will only respond to someone that is clearly in charge. That’s why officers are trained to project command presence. Generally speaking, if an officer doubts that he’s in charge, so will a suspect. It’s absolutely possible that this guy could have responded better with a different approach, but some people choose not to fight, or kill, officers only if they respect, or fear, the officer’s capabilities enough. And remember, these officers were responding to a gun call. You will never hear an officer politely asking a suspect to hand over the gun. We want them to keep their hands as far away, from any gun, as they possibly can. We will secure the suspect, and reach for the gun ourselves. What you’ll get, is something like you see in this video, commands being given that are intended to keep his hands away from any place a gun might be.
As to your comments about training, you are right about the fact that we watch videos and hear stories about what has killed cops in the past. Do you suggest that officers should not be apprised of the dangerous possibilities out there? There are guns out there that look like cell phones, and others that are painted to look like toys. Would you suggest that officers be kept ignorant of them? Is it your position that the officer that you would call if someone broke into your house, be the most likely to die in every tense situation? Even though the job description involves deliberately walking into tense situations? Why in the world would anyone sign up for a job like that? You’re comments about being trained to always use extreme violence are completely unwarranted. Officers are more likely to wait too long, and use too little force, when force is necessary. Why? Because of the ramifications. Check this story out, about a cop who was beaten into unconsciousness, by an unarmed suspect no less, because she was afraid of the backlash if she shot him.
How, exactly, could he be certain that Shaver was no threat? He’d never met the man, didn’t know what his intentions were, and had information suggesting he had a gun. Next time you’re at the mall, look around and tell me how many people you would literally bet your life are unarmed. If the answer is anything more than “0”, then I envy the comfortable life you’ve lived that allows you to have so much faith in complete strangers.
He couldn’t walk up and handcuff him because the room hadn’t been cleared. We know this for a fact because he kept asking if anybody else was in there. At the very end of the video, he orders somebody to watch Shaver, as he calls for someone to clear the room with him. You can’t have an officer go into an unsecured location, particularly when a gun has been mentioned, and ask him to occupy both hands with cuffing a suspect.
When you question the commands that he gave, did you notice that the female companion followed them perfectly? I’ll admit, I would have used a different word if I wanted them to approach me on their knees. “Crawl” sounds like “drop to all fours” which doesn’t seem to be what they wanted him to do, but the woman managed to do what the officer intended. And remember, the shooting didn’t happen when Shaver began crawling. It happened when he reached his right arm toward his waistband. As for explaining that we might shoot, that’s called the admonition. We do that, when time allows, because the public gets upset if we don’t communicate what we want suspects to do, and what the possible repercussions could be if they don’t. Had he not said those things, somebody would have complained that the poor guy didn’t know he might get shot.
And no, he didn't go in intending to get into a gun fight. He was there with the intent to go home to his family. That’s every single cop’s intent, every single time.
@ad-arts said:
@willpayton said:
Totally agree, and all the more reason why the training of police needs to be better. They should default to de-escalation at all times, and not head into situations with the assumption that the people they meet are automatically a threat to them, or that shooting someone is the only way to deal with a problem.
I'm reminded of the video of the man who walked into a Thai police station with a knife. In the U.S. he'd been shot immediately by half a dozen cops. In this Thai police station a cop talks him down and takes away the knife with no violence whatsoever, no one gets hurt.
That's because in US usually people with no perspectives or brain join the police.
Sometimes that's true, but there's also a whole lot of very intelligent and moral people doing that job. I have a lot of respect for them. I just think that in general the training they get makes everything worse. Then of course you have the bad apples, and this just makes them even worse. You bring up perspective... and I think that's the right word. The training needs to have the perspective that they're there to help people and insure the safety of the public, even if that means that they'll be in dangerous situations and that those situations cant be eliminated by having the mentality that they're at war. They cant approach everything by acting like violent thugs.
Take this situation where the cop is yelling orders... what if the person has a mental handicap? What if they dont speak English? What if they're drunk or on drugs? What if, what if? The cop created a situation where it's very likely that he will shoot someone, and not because of any actual danger, but because he has created the danger in his mind and escalated things by his own actions.
what if the person has a mental handicap?
We know there’s a gun, should we assume a disability? Can a disabled person press a trigger? An officer ends up no less dead if the suspect didn't understand that he was killing him.
What if they dont speak English?
You aren’t giving him credit for the calm, clear communicating he did. He actually asked if they understood him, and could follow directions. They agreed to his terms, and the woman was taken into custody without incident.
What if they're drunk or on drugs?
Can a drunk or high suspect kill a cop? Absolutely.
What if, what if? The cop created a situation where it's very likely that he will shoot someone, and not because of any actual danger, but because he has created the danger in his mind and escalated things by his own actions.
He didn’t create the 911 call about a man with a gun. You tell me if you would casually walk into a call like that, assuming everything will be fine.
That was disgusting, and that officer seemed like he was on some kind of power trip.
Who, exactly? The guy you heard isn’t the guy who shot. It goes to show you’re judging this without all of the facts.
Totally agree, and all the more reason why the training of police needs to be better. They should default to de-escalation at all times, and not head into situations with the assumption that the people they meet are automatically a threat to them, or that shooting someone is the only way to deal with a problem.
I'm reminded of the video of the man who walked into a Thai police station with a knife. In the U.S. he'd been shot immediately by half a dozen cops. In this Thai police station a cop talks him down and takes away the knife with no violence whatsoever, no one gets hurt.
Your suggestion is already in play. De-escalation is the name of the game. We go through numerous classes and training scenarios designed to help us de-escalate. Unfortunately, it doesn’t work in every situation. Even more unfortunately, not every situation that de-escalation would work is readily apparent. An officer’s use of force must be judged by what is reasonably perceived at the time. When you watch the video, is it reasonable to believe that Shaver was reaching for a gun when his right hand went to his waistband? Especially when they were responding to a gun call in the first place? Put yourself in the officer’s place. Responding to a gun call, suspect keeps reaching toward his waistband despite orders not to do so, and has been admonished that lethal force is in play. He then reaches for his waist. What do you do? Can you get him before he gets you if he pulls a gun? How many bullets would it take to kill you?
I remember seeing this video. The version I saw showed the raw video, but didn’t have the interview. It’s a charming story, but I have to point something out. The outcome would likely have been the same in America. The distressed man didn’t make any aggressive moves with the knife, and rapport was already established. His threat was to kill himself, not the officers. Anirut had no information suggesting that the man would attack, so his tactic was the best for that situation. American officers face similar situations all the time, talking people off ledges and such. I've gotten people to put down knives and sticks too. You don't hear about it because it doesn't make the news. But Shaver’s situation was drastically different. The officers knew there was a gun (that it turned out to be a pellet gun is irrelevant. I'm not going to wait to see what a round does to my vest before I shoot), and had no way of knowing that it wasn’t holstered at Shaver’s waist. And Shaver wasn't listening to commands to keep his hands visible.
As a former full time cop myself this video disgusted me, the entire policing situation in the USA is actually a travesty to justice. There’s something very wrong with policing in America.
@boschepg said:
@willpayton: its a high stress job
I do agree that this incident was a bad showing for this officer. The partner should have cuffed the man instead of asking him to crawl. that's a fact
It hard to prosecute police cuz like in this video, the boy made a motion for his waist. We as outsiders assume he was picking up his pants but it is also the motion to reach for a gun, in which he got the benefit of the doubt
the scenario painted a bad scenario for the cops anyways cuz they were called cuz the man and his girlfriend were drunk and the cops were called cuz they had a bebe gun pointing out of the room - which cannot be discerned by anyone. but the cops were called for a possible gun in the situation which escalates anxiety- which turned out to be a bebe gun from a drunk couple- which also helped the cops case
the judge did throw out that the shooter in question had his own personal weapon with the engravement "You are F'd" but was thrown out to not provide bias'
I agree this cop went overboard but the reason he was there and the motion to the waist when they are called for possible gun made those triggers somewhat problematic
As a former Cop myself I can safely say where I live (the UK) this cop would have been charged for some type of negligence, murder, or manslaughter or a combination of the first. Why?
The entire situation would have been instantly ended if the cop had said "get on your knees, put your hands on head." But no, he did some stupid "crawl towards me" which created an impossible situation.
Furthermore, "reaching for his gun" is an overused argument always used in police shootings despite it not being a ubiquitous defense. That doesn't mean squat because in this situation the cop could have tasered this suspect. US Police shoot first but forget they have a taser so much. If you genuinely believe he has a gun? Taser him before he can reach for his belt. It isn't rocket science, it's basic policing.
Overall my point is this man should not have been given a chance to motion to his waist because the police officer was in complete control and lost control due to negligence.
If somebody dies due to your negligence and then you shoot them, that's on you. Again, saying this as a former full time cop. (Still part time).
I don’t know how UK officers are trained, so I don’t know if anything you’ve said is your fault. First of all, they couldn’t leave Shaver where he was, because, as I’ve mentioned, he was near a room that had not been cleared. That’s why they wanted him to come to them. Secondly, if you would honestly bring a taser to a gun fight, you would die, and your suspect would not. I’ll gently disagree with you if want to taser someone that may or may not have a gun, but suggesting a taser when you genuinely believe there is a gun is a recipe for disaster. I would think, in a part of the world accustomed to chilly temperatures, that an experienced officer would recognize the risk layered clothing presents to the implementation of a taser. If the prongs don’t penetrate all layers of clothing, you won’t get the neuromuscular incapacitation that you’re looking for. And while you’re playing around with the taser, your suspect, which you already knew had a gun, draws and shoots. You’ve now given yourself one more thing to do, ditching the taser, before you can then unholster, come up on target, and address the threat. Even landing direct hits, with both prongs, is no guarantee that the taser will work. Every suspect is different. You're being awfully idealistic if you're willing to bet your life that the circumstances will be perfect for the taser, despite the deadly risk to yourself. I know police in the UK aren’t routinely armed with lethal force, so maybe that accounts for your idea. But in America, or with any suspect with a gun, this tactic would get you killed.
Don’t forget, the officer ordered him, several times, to keep his hands visible. Despite numerous commands, and warnings about the consequences, he reached again.
US policing is a joke. Ask anyone in the armed forces, THEY'RE actually prepared to give their lives for their country, they don't shoot unless shot at, they don't even raise their weapons until ready to shoot. They're the real patriots. Cops are jokes, just sad individuals furious with their mediocrity, and power tripping with a god complex to compensate. "Some of them, I assume, are good people."
Not sure where you’re coming from, other than cop hate, but I’ll speak to you for a minute. Your handle suggests respect for the military, though referring to them as “THEY” suggests that your aren’t military yourself. Either way you’re missing some important points here. In the military, you aren’t just dealing with your safety and that of your teammates. You’re dealing with international issues, with potentially worldwide ramifications. When shooting someone could lead to an international incident, you are going to be faced with layers of bureaucracy to get through before you can defend yourself. The powers that be will actually go so far as to determine “Acceptable Loss,” which is how many of our boys we’re willing to lose to achieve an objective. That could lead to orders not to return fire, even if fired upon. It's sad, and I don't agree with it, but it's the way it is. I’m not military myself, so if anyone here interprets this differently, please speak up. But I would imagine there aren’t many soldiers that enjoy taking rounds without returning the favor.
This guy is a nutter, and its obvious from the first words he shouts that he's a nutter. Whoever thought it was acceptable to have a man like this doing the job he's doing should also be fired, this man posed an obvious risk to the general public.
Negligence through and through, just about anyone would've been killed in this situation.
Really? What would you have done if you were Shaver? Listened to the officer’s command, and did what he told you? Then you would have survived.
Poor training and guys with connections get in faster than qualified guys if you have a family member or friend that's high in the police force you can get a job pretty quickly
Not as easy as you think. There have been at least three US presidents, in my lifetime, that wouldn’t have passed the background investigation for my department. The most interesting thing about your post is how it conflicts with the OP. You want more training to eliminate what you call cowardice, but that sounds like exposing officers to enough threats that they become comfortable under fire. The OP suggests that officers are being provided too much information about potential threats, which just makes them jumpy.
I can’t speak for other agencies, but my hiring process was over a year. And I already worked for them as a jailer. I had over a dozen prior jobs, so my background investigator had to track everything down, which took time. They also, obviously, checked the references I provided, and knocked on my neighbors’ doors to find out as much about me as they could. They probably even checked some things that I don't know about.
Statistically most cops are psycho killers or just some asshole with something to prove.
Come back when you have some facts.
What you're seeing in the video is a group of officers responding to a call involving a gun. I can't tell if they were just working on a tactical plan for the approach, or if they were waiting after a call was made to the room, ordering them out. I'm inclined to think that Shaver and his friend had not been called, because it doesn't seem that they were ordered to come out with their hands up. In any event, once they're out, and ordered to the ground, the officers needed to get them out of the line of fire so they could clear the room they came from. She complies, but he has difficulty doing so. You'll notice that they didn't handcuff her until she was in a safer area, where the cuffing officer was protected from any other potential threats in the hallway or the uncleared room. Then he, tragically, reached for his waistband.
What we can't see in the video is how much space these officers had. If that was a corner, or the top of the stairs, they didn't have much space to work with.
What I'd have done differently is to have them face away from me, rather than to face me while crawling toward me. Numbers permitting, I'd have had units any exits in the other direction, in case they ran, so I might even have left them on their feet, as long as they were faced away with their fingers laced behind their head, as I had them walk backward toward me. If I'd put them on their knees, instead of saying "crawl" I'd have said, "walk on your knees" to keep their hands from drifting near their waists. Yes I would have shouted. Initially, as they came out, and again when he failed to comply, just as this officer did.
The last thing I have to say about the criticism is that nobody here has mentioned race. Everybody's talking about all of the police shootings out there, but we ordinarily hear that cops are racist. In this instance, both the shooter and Shaver are white, so I guess it's irrelevant? But If race isn't a factor here, why would it be for somebody else. This exact shooting could happen, with somebody that looks different losing his life, and the whole argument changes. If you're honest, you'll all admit that instead of circling the wagons around too much or not enough training, you'd have been shouting about racism.
Does that strike you as consistent?
As mentioned in my opening line, there are about 900,000 active officers working in the United States. As these officers are working every day, there are millions of police contacts every year. But there were only 963 people shot and killed by officers in 2016. Assuming a one officer one shooting average, that works out to .00107 percent of officers killing someone, justified or otherwise. Now take that same number of shootings, and spread it over nearly 63 million police contacts (2011). Anybody starting to see the bigger picture?
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