The Sperm-Givers place in deciding abortion

I realize that trans women can get people pregnant, and trans men can get pregnant, so I guess it was titled like that to be inclusive.

I guess that, while people have rights to their own bodies, I feel like people should have at least some rights to their lineages, even if they cannot carry a baby

1) How much say should the sperm-giver have in deciding whether or not to keep it?

2) Should said sperm-giver have to pay support for a child s/he did not want to be born?

3) Should a sperm giver have more say in the pregnancy if s/he was raped/deceived?

I guess are my initial questions

My gut tells me it should be 50/50 but something is nagging at me telling me not so.

Internal turmoil, must think, shutting down. Will reboot later with answer.

@doomdoomdoom: sorry

@mitran: so if Sperm Giver is raped, how much say does sperm-giver get?

@mitran: Oh, that makes sense than

should he still have to pay child support?

@betatesthighlander1: Nothing to be sorry for, It's rare I come across something on CV that makes me go into self-examination mode and actually use my brain. Didn't mean to come across so joking and lighthearted, it's my juvenile defense system acting up again.

1) This one I am going to say 50/50.

2) I think so, although I don't think procreation is the main objective of sex, I think it's unfair to a newborn to simply say "I didn't want you, I refuse to monetarily help you and your guardian out even though I'm half the cause of this situation"

3) Little unsure here, are you asking should the Sperm-giver have more say if he/she (the sperm-giver) was raped, coerced, or deceived? If I have the question right, I think they should have 100% of the decision then.

I think if there was already an established relationship between the mother and father, or one was clearly forming then, yes, it should be 50/50. I'll probably have a lot of women yelling at me about 'its our body blah blah blah' but if the father wants his child to be born, then the mother shouldn't be able to abort it. If they were really serious about not wanting the baby then i'm sure the father would be happy to raise it on his own. No need to be spiteful.

@buttersdaman000: fair enough

This pretty much covers it.

If the father wants to take equal responsibility for the child and the woman isn't at risk or a rape/incest victim then he should have some voice in the decision. That being said I agree it is mostly the woman's decision but the father does have every right to have an opinion on the subject and women who do have abortions without consulting the father should be prepared for him to have a negative reaction.

Without saying how I feel about the question I'm really surprised that there are so many people saying Equal to number one. Usually at this time there are rapid it's her body her right to choose comments being posted..

that word didn't come to mind, sorry

If it's the woman's decision doesn't that make the mans say carry little or no weight in the matter? If he's adamant about either having or not having it means nothing unless she wants it to mean something.

Why is this so hard for people v.v

1) How much say should the sperm-giver have in deciding whether or not to keep it?

2) Should said sperm-giver have to pay support for a child s/he did not want to be born?

3) Should a sperm giver have more say in the pregnancy if s/he was raped/deceived?

1) None, currently.

2) No. Just like that baby is not entitled to your body for 9 months, that woman and baby is not entitled to the mans body for 18 years, which is what child support is. The unwillful transfer of wealth from a man to a child and/or mother.

3) No. Rapists have no say and equally have no rights as to the child.

There are easy laws to enact that would solve all these problems.

Paternity test should be mandatory

Once biological parenthood has been established they should have the right to take, give, or reject parental rights to the child.

The giving part might be a bit complex, but that's it.

If you have parental rights you are responsible for that child. If you do not then you have no rights and likewise aren't responsible for that child.

And to the person who said "yes if sex is consensual" Sex does not mean you want children and especially in the case of the male who only has the woman's word she's on birth control and a condom that can break or that could have been tampered with.

It really does come down to simply... Her body, HER choice, HER responsibility. Where as the laws as they are now are Her Body, HER choice, HIS responsibility and that is just wrong on so many levels.

@dernman: Which was the entire point of the second half of my post. I just added that said woman shouldn't be surprised if the father is upset about not taking part in the decision.

men get none even if the Women lies to them about being on birth control and essentially steals their genetics.

fair no....

Oh and Trans Gender women(originally men) can't get pregnant. Nor can trans gender men (originally women) get a real women pregnant. unless there is some new way of doing it most Gender re-assignment surgeries are mostly hormonal changes to the body with a side of Genitalia inversion (mutilation really)

Like you don't get actual working Genitalia for the purpose of reproduction, stop trying so hard to sound politically correct if you're just going to make yourself factually wrong.

So you could have just said a man's place....

does everyone here actually think transgenders can get pregnant???? =/

I think y'all need a Biology lesson.....

@youmessinwithme said:

lol, depends on what you mean... technically if we were to do some stuff that isn't legal yet i supposed it's possible that we could put an artificial uterus in someone and then use various techniques to create egg cells... but thats all in the crazy future usage of stuff we know and can do today stage.

at certain points, yeah

and sometimes they stop taking hormones and effects can b reversed....

Yeah it is possibly, Possible that some sort of procedure could maybe be done to allow a man to carry an egg(maybe!)

But the Op flat out says transgenders(modern transgenders i'm assuming) have babies and Produce semen. Both of which are just flat out wrong. and whats worse is he made the title so weird to try and not offend Trans gender's (that are getting pregnant or getting people pregnant) which are people that don't exist to be offended.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_pregnancy#Transgender_people

you do relise it says Identify as man right? like that is a woman with fake male bits but still her real female bits underneath... so of course they can.

and that's a woman who became a man getting preagnent so they still have their original Ovaries (and a space for something else to go in...)(like an incomplete sex change) i'm Talking about like a man becomes a woman through surgery, who in that case can not have kids.

@youmessinwithme: I didn't say post-op anywhere

anyways, Identification is more important than surgery to most transsexuals

So what you meant by "Trans Men can get preagneant" was Women who identify as men can get pregnant. in which case...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1W7c8QghPxk

1) the woman should have the final say. It's her body and she has to carry the baby for nine months in which her body will go through many changes.

2) yes. If you don't want a child you should've abstained from sex or used protection. If the child is there you man up and take care of the child to the best of your ability.

3) this one is more tricky. If the impregnator was raped/incest/against their will they should be exempt from child support and the choice be left to them if they want to be part of the childs life. It also depends on their mental stability and lot of other factors though. If the 'sperm giver' was tricked like "no need for a condom, i'm on birth control" then they still have (financial) support and responsibility like i mentioned at nr. 2.

@aiden_cross said:

That is a bullshit way of thinking about this. If that's how you feel then you should be against abortion. "Sorry honey, you had sex, so it's your problem now." There is no "manning up" because "manning up" means to take responsibility. The life of a child is in no way a man's responsibility. This is even more the case when you consider they have no choice in the matter and no, sex does not equate to "Yes I want kids". It means "Yes I want sex". Just because a guy is foolish enough to trust a woman about her time of them month or her being on the pill or that the condom isn't messed with if she gave it to him or that she take the morning after pill or get an abortion... That doesn't make it right to enslave someone for 18 years. That's what it is. Slavery. You have no choice in the matter, the product of your work is forcefully taken from you, and if you do not produce you are thrown in jail, debtors prison to be exact which was abolished 100+ years ago because it was pointed out that it was slavery, but it still is acceptable for this.

Sex is not a choice to be a parent

If women can have abortions and abandon children and men can't complain then they certainly do not owe anyone anything. It's not their choice. it is not their responsibility. And if you think you can have responsibility without the choice in a matter well then we should just start randomly allowing crimes and putting punishment on any person we so choose. That wouldn't be moral or just and it isn't when you suggest it in this situation either.

@durakken: you have to be trolling because that's the most ridiculous thing i've ever read. And that's saying a lot. I'm not even bothering to reply to this any further.

@aiden_cross said:

Dude, it's not ridiculous. It's how the system works. You cannot be so daft to think that it is appropriate to give someone 100% ability and 100% get out of jail free of a situation and whatever they say goes with no consequences and the other person, that in at least 1 out of 10 cases isn't responsible at the level you think, to be completely subjugated to that person's choice, and it's not a minor thing... It's 18 years and is beyond unreasonable in what is taken even if the 18 year part was reason which it isn't. And that's only discussing the father's point of view...ignoring the lack of rights that people recognize that that father should have. From the child and societies point of view it's even worse because it's a child born to an unwilling family that often isn't ready for that let alone wants that and possibly not even with that particular person.

What you asserting is that If me and you met and you introduce me to a third person. And me and this 3rd person make a contract that you tell is a horrible idea and want no part of, and the contract says the 3rd person will give me $144,000. What you are saying in this situation is that You would be responsible for giving me that $144,000 and if you don't pay it, I'm able to take it directly from any money you get before you ever see it, and if you don't have any money coming in I can petition the courts to throw you in jail where you'll rack up fines and such. You're saying you are ok with that.

@durakken: that doesn't even make sense. But it's already clear to me that we have radically(!) different views judging from other threads. As Mitran said above: you want to play in the rain but not get wet.

You fathered that child, you both gave consensus to have sex. That means you have to deal with the consequences of your actions. If you have sex, you know that a child is a possibility. It's as simple as that. If you're not mature enough to take responsibility then you're not mature enough to have sex.

Btw, raising a child isn't for 18 years. It's for life.

@mitran:

Do you not understand just how ignorant that is... The male has no choice in the birth of the child and to make such an asinine statement as you did, if you are going to make it should be applied more so to women and thus abortion shouldn't be legal.

Male Chooses to have sex: Protection = Condom (which is like 95% safe) & trusting the woman. If the woman lied, or the condom breaks, or is part of that 5% well that's the end of his choices.

Female Chooses to have sex:

The Pill, IUD, Diaphragm, Morning After pill, Abortion, adoption, abandonment

All those choices and methods to control pregnancy and birth and responsibility all fall to a woman WITHOUT choice from the father and are all 90 to 99% successful and can all be used together (where it logically makes sense) That is 7 near 100% ways for a woman to get out of all responsibility for a child that she has conceived from sex. If you are a single mother you are to blame. No one else.

On the other hand, If you are a father, you literally had no choice in the matter, because even if you want the child it is still not your decision to be a father because that choice is easily subverted and if you don't want the child, that choice can and does get subverted by various means.

It is beyond repugnant to say that is perfectly acceptable to have all these outs for this mistake when it comes to a woman, but fuck you if you're a guy. Get down get to work. It doesn't matter that your decision doesn't count, you're still going to pay for something you had no choice in.

OH and btw, paternity tests can only be done with the mother's approval and it's a solid statistic that 1 in 10 children aren't calling the right person "father". So add on top of the whole, not your choice thing with the fact that there is a 10% chance it's also not your child either. It's repugnant. It's immoral, it's sexist, it's misandrist.

Consent to sex IS NOT consenting to being a parent.

And if you think it is then you should be against abortion and abandonment...and not to mention all forms of birth control.

A child is not the consequence of a male's action. It's the consequence ONLY of a mother in this world with all our birth control methods for women, abortion, adoption, and abandonment.

@durakken: i have no idea how you come to that conclusion based on things i've said where i actually promoted birth control?

It takes two to make a baby. So yes, it is a consequence of a male action. And there is such a things as condoms and taking your own responsibility. Shocking, i know.

@aiden_cross: You have failed to understand what I said. Condoms fail. Whether they do or not, let us say it does... It doesn't matter because there's the pill that most women are on which is 99% effective taken correctly, the morning after pill that can be taken which is 99% effective, Spermacide which is 99% effective, and abortion which is 100% effective. Even without that there is still adoption and abandonment, both of which is 100% effective in removing all responsibility from the mother at will.

You can not in right mind give that many outs and that many choices and then say that no matter what the man thinks or wants he's responsible. He simply cannot be in any sense of the word. A woman is not a mother if she doesn't want to be a mother. A father has no choice as to whether he is or not. Even a virgin is not 100% safe in that sense.

@mitran: pretty much what i'm thinking.

@mitran said:

I Adoption and abandonment has to do with the actual issue. The ability to Relinquish responsibility which a woman has at any time for any reason without threat.

Women get pregnant for all sorts of reasons, hormones, to "save" a relationship, a pay check, are all things that are done, but not only that women also cheat and lie about who the father is.

Again. Consent to sex is not consent to parenthood. A male's ability to consent does not exist in what you are saying. As I said, if you think that sex is consent for parenthood then adoption, abortion, birth control, and abandonment should all be illegal. They aren't and you wouldn't think of doing such so you're hypocritical and sexist.

It means a lot that 1 in 10 children think the wrong person is their father, especially with what you are advocating, which is 18 years of enslavement, if not more due to the ability to sue for back child support. Forcing someone to work so that you can take their produce for your benefit is the definition of slavery. And that 1 in 10 number makes that just a bit more messed up.

You don't get to enslave someone for anyone else's benefit, whether they be child or woman or man. And you are beyond clueless if you think that forcing a man to pay child support is creating a "stable" father figure. You don't get stable relationships based on lies, resentment, threats, aggression, and so many other trespasses and that's assuming best case scenario. In the worst case scenario it's a full rejection of any rights that this father has to the child while still forcing him to take responsibility for something that he has no control over.

You have a mistaken urge to say that a man has responsibility because for thousands of years we had no birth control and children were in the care of their fathers as that is the actual agreement that marriage represents. Man protects and provides for women in exchange for woman providing children for the men and sex was a service the woman owed the man. With the dissolution of marriage via no fault divorce and "in the best interest of the child" turning into "in the best interest of the mother" and the collapse of mores and the invention of birth control Men no longer have any of that responsibility because the no longer have any of the control over reproduction or the offspring and sex is not risking becoming a mother for a woman. a woman can ONLY give birth and become a mother in the modern world if she so desires. The same, cannot be said of a man.

And instead of calling me a troll, because I don't buy into crap that has no basis in reality, well then that is just you trying to justify your willful ignorance and prejudice without taking to heart or thinking about what is being said.

I certainly do think the man (or "sperm giver") should have more of a fairer say in the matter.

No they should have the right to not have responsibility for the child and walk away. But of course if they walk away they have no responsibility or rights over that child.

If the "sperm giver" is raped? Should they have a say if the rapist is pregnant? Yeah sure but then how much would they want to do with the person who has raped them? . If you are talking about the other way around that the rapist got them pregnant and should the rapist have rights? Of course not.

Yes because giving child support is exactly the same as carrying the child within your body for nine months and then giving birth to them though insurmountable pain. Yes that is the exact same thing.

@batpala said:

Yes because giving child support is exactly the same as carrying the child within your body for nine months and then giving birth to them though insurmountable pain. Yes that is the exact same thing.

Is this in reference to anyone's comments in particular?

@mrdecepticonleader: generally the earlier comments bemoaning men having to pay child support if they aren't involved in the childs life. [Like my father who was an alcoholic and left my mother when she found out she was pregnant and then returned to his wife whom he was separated with at the time he was with my mother, but anyway]

@batpala said:

Do you not understand that child support is EIGHTEEN YEARS of FORCED LABOR where the product of your labor is taken BY FORCE from you at the THREAT of jail time? How bout this I will trade a year of being fat, sick, pitied, cared for that I can stop at any time without repercussions and you take 18 years of work where more than half of anything you make is taken away and if you choose not to work or pay you get to go to jail...and then get sued and forced to pay the same amount of money plus all the fines.

And to make this complete. I get to choose when these time periods begin.

The only rule being that I have to take at least 6 months of my time and your time will start between the time that my time ends to any time in the next 20 years I decide, but don't ask for proof that I actually completed those 6 months.

Ahh but wait, You're still not getting the full effect you see because we're making a deal. As it's currently set up you get to decide whether you want to take this deal or not. You see, in the real world, you can be a virgin and STILL have to deal with this. I know I know, women don't lie and why would a woman do this right? And yet there are accounts of things like this happening. So to make our analogy correct. I get to decide whether you get to take this deal or not.

What's that you say? You can give up parental rights? Sorry to break to you but courts get to decide that and they favor me. After all, it's in the child's best interest that my interests are served.

What's that? You have somehow gotten prove that we didn't make this deal? Gee golly, sorry to break it to you again, but courts have ruled in the past that regardless you still have to pay up.

See I control everything and get everything that I want, and you get nothing but an obligation which you may not have agreed to in the first place and it's very hard to get out of. Even that 6 months oh my god so horrible pains and aches of sickness still has the pity and people caring about me more than usual and that's really the worst it gets. I don't even have to deal with the kid most days because school and other stuff that take up the majority of the kids time. You on the other hand get nothing except pain and hard and threats and called a dead beat.

You're saying you're a horrible parent if you think you can do that. Yeah, and what's your point. Go back to work and get my money or I'll have you thrown in jail.

So again. I'd be more than happy to switch our gender lots in life. I'll take your 9 months of pregnancy. You can take my jail time, shorter life in general, harsher working conditions, and worse living conditions. And that's saying nothing of what happens as side tangents.

Well I don't think men should be forced to pay child support if they want nothing to do with that child. Then that should be within their rights.