Kobe was a great player. But if I'm starting a team, he is not close to my first pick. I don't think he made the people around him much better. Almost like he didn't trust them. If I have first pick to build a team... I would pick these people BEFORE Kobe. In no particular order:
No way am I picking Leonard - at this point - or Oscar over Kobe.
Also, can we quit it with the myth that Kobe doesn't make players around him better.
Its only a myth to a degree. Kobe had a lot of shortcomings as a player which have a lot to do with his personality and leadership qualities. Phil was able to smooth over a lot of them but even he actually wanted him traded a couple of times and quit coaching because he didn't want to deal with Kobe and his ego any more. Metrics bear out the fact that Kobe isn't on the same level as most other all time greats. He also got to play with some very good front courts which led the league in rebounding almost every year Kobe's teams won titles. I don't think Kobe made his teammates better so much as he played on teams custom made for him to succeed on.
But theres not denying that he choked big time in game 3 against Boston.
Cvas still sweep in five...That Warriors and Cavs collision course to the finals better happen.
I don't even understand the point of bringing up game 3 against Boston in a series where the Cavs were up 2-0 and the Cavs led by 20 even with LeBron playing passively and possibly sick. The Cavs lost that game as a team and it was a meaningless game anyhow. Its not like it was a game 7 or something like that. It just a matter of Boston winning 1 game rather than getting swept and the Cavs as a whole definitely fell asleep at the wheel in that game.
No way am I picking Leonard - at this point - or Oscar over Kobe.
Also, can we quit it with the myth that Kobe doesn't make players around him better.
Its only a myth to a degree. Kobe had a lot of shortcomings as a player which have a lot to do with his personality and leadership qualities. Phil was able to smooth over a lot of them but even he actually wanted him traded a couple of times and quit coaching because he didn't want to deal with Kobe and his ego any more. Metrics bear out the fact that Kobe isn't on the same level as most other all time greats. He also got to play with some very good front courts which led the league in rebounding almost every year Kobe's teams won titles. I don't think Kobe made his teammates better so much as he played on teams custom made for him to succeed on.
I don't think you can really use numbers to say he isn't as good, because they don't take into account context and intangibles. There is nothing to me that says Kobe isn't on anyone's level. He takes insanely difficult, ill-advised shots and he is shoot first, that's why a lot of his percentages suck. But you have to take into account play-style and what's called the eye-test too. Just like how you can't take a center's high FG percentage and claim they're a great shooter.
You could argue Kobe made his teammates better due to his competitive nature and how hard he was on them, making them work harder and get better. That's something that never shows up on paper but is still true. Plus he is like top 30 in all time assists despite being shoot-first and not at all a point guard. He constantly drew double teams and even though he is known for still shooting over a double team anyway, his number show that he did share the ball more than enough.
@jayc1324: There are flaws that can be pointed out in certain metrics but at the same time many metrics take into account many factors that sort of level the playing field and generally speaking Kobe just does not measure up even to many of his contemporaries in that dept. If you are going to give him credit for his competitive nature then you also have to take into account how much of an asshole he was to his teammates and how he would throw them under the bus constantly after losses. I never once saw Kobe take any blame for any losses in his 20 year career. I give credit for everything he could do on the court but at the same time there are also negatives to him as a player. imo he isn't in the top 10 all time. He is more in the 11-15 range. There are easily 10 other players I would rather build a team around for the duration of their careers than Kobe.
@jayc1324: There are flaws that can be pointed out in certain metrics but at the same time many metrics take into account many factors that sort of level the playing field and generally speaking Kobe just does not measure up even to many of his contemporaries in that dept. If you are going to give him credit for his competitive nature then you also have to take into account how much of an asshole he was to his teammates and how he would throw them under the bus constantly after losses. I never once saw Kobe take any blame for any losses in his 20 year career. I give credit for everything he could do on the court but at the same time there are also negatives to him as a player. imo he isn't in the top 10 all time. He is more in the 11-15 range. There are easily 10 other players I would rather build a team around for the duration of their careers than Kobe.
I think at this point we are starting to get into an argument of subjectivity/opinion, but I think it is silly to not have Kobe in top 10. Jordan was an asshole too. But both he and Kobe are winners. IMO you can't argue with championships. I mean Kobe is tied for second all time in All-Nba defensive team selections, and is one of he best scorers to ever play the game, having streaks of 50 point games with some 60 point ones thrown in too, and of course his 81 point game. And what guy scores 60 as an old man in a retirement game? I can't name 10 better all-around players, or ten better winners. Ten better teammates? Sure, there are plenty, but that isn't as important when judging a player individually. I personally am not a fan of using advanced statistics, because you should be able to judge a player just by watching them and not having to do math and look up advanced ESPN stats. To me, there is no stat that can takeaway any of his accomplishments that I just mentioned, or any of the ones I didn't mention. He isn't an efficient player, big whoop. But if you wanna judge Kobe based on those stats then fine, I can respect that, we will just disagree then.
@jayc1324: Kobe would often cross a line with his teammates that MJ never did and I think its due in part to his ego coming into the league and the fact he came in straight out of hs. That is why Phil just didn't have much respect for Kobe compared to MJ. He literally tried to get him traded twice while he was coming into his prime. I would also say many of those all defensive team honors Kobe got were not deserved. As many as half. Even Phil called him overrated defensively back in 2005 when he was still in his athletic prime because he said he gambled too much on defense and would often get burned. Rings matter but in Kobe's case he doesn't get all the credit for his rings. Using metrics, he only led one of those 5 teams he won rings on in win shares. You may not like metrics but they do tell the story to some degree in terms of who was doing what. Why would metrics be so biased against Kobe while giving due credit to pretty much every other all time great player? imo he is around 13th all time which is where I think espn recently placed him on their own list they did. So we can agree to disagree about him I guess.
@jayc1324: Kobe would often cross a line with his teammates that MJ never did and I think its due in part to his ego coming into the league and the fact he came in straight out of hs. That is why Phil just didn't have much respect for Kobe compared to MJ. He literally tried to get him traded twice while he was coming into his prime. I would also say many of those all defensive team honors Kobe got were not deserved. As many as half. Even Phil called him overrated defensively back in 2005 when he was still in his athletic prime because he said he gambled too much on defense and would often get burned. Rings matter but in Kobe's case he doesn't get all the credit for his rings. Using metrics, he only led one of those 5 teams he won rings on in win shares. You may not like metrics but they do tell the story to some degree in terms of who was doing what. Why would metrics be so biased against Kobe while giving due credit to pretty much every other all time great player? imo he is around 13th all time which is where I think espn recently placed him on their own list they did. So we can agree to disagree about him I guess.
Yeah this is why I question metrics, you have all-time greats like Barkely, Pierce and MJ who say Kobe is top 10, even better than Bron, and it is weird to me that metrics/advanced stats tell us something totally different. I know metrics are legit but I tend to trust actual people who have seen him or played against him more. And about Phil, given how he is currently treating Melo I think he is just a dick in general. Yeah, we will agree to disagree though, we just have different ways of looking at the game and judging guys. Kobe is quite the polarizing player.
But theres not denying that he choked big time in game 3 against Boston.
Cvas still sweep in five...That Warriors and Cavs collision course to the finals better happen.
I don't even understand the point of bringing up game 3 against Boston in a series where the Cavs were up 2-0 and the Cavs led by 20 even with LeBron playing passively and possibly sick. The Cavs lost that game as a team and it was a meaningless game anyhow. Its not like it was a game 7 or something like that. It just a matter of Boston winning 1 game rather than getting swept and the Cavs as a whole definitely fell asleep at the wheel in that game.
Bro...Your kinda late with the response...I posted that the same day of Game 3 in Cleveland..lol
And it also looks like i was right on the money...Cavs still sweep in five..lol
But theres not denying that he choked big time in game 3 against Boston.
Cvas still sweep in five...That Warriors and Cavs collision course to the finals better happen.
I don't even understand the point of bringing up game 3 against Boston in a series where the Cavs were up 2-0 and the Cavs led by 20 even with LeBron playing passively and possibly sick. The Cavs lost that game as a team and it was a meaningless game anyhow. Its not like it was a game 7 or something like that. It just a matter of Boston winning 1 game rather than getting swept and the Cavs as a whole definitely fell asleep at the wheel in that game.
Bro...Your kinda late with the response...I posted that the same day of Game 3 in Cleveland..lol
And it also looks like i was right on the money...Cavs still sweep in five..lol
I don't always check threads the same days as games. It just seemed strange that you would bring it up which is why I replied. It was his only bad games of the playoffs in an almost meaningless game 3 so using the word choke just seemed out of place to me. Choking is usually reserved for big games where there is lots of pressure.
But theres not denying that he choked big time in game 3 against Boston.
Cvas still sweep in five...That Warriors and Cavs collision course to the finals better happen.
I don't even understand the point of bringing up game 3 against Boston in a series where the Cavs were up 2-0 and the Cavs led by 20 even with LeBron playing passively and possibly sick. The Cavs lost that game as a team and it was a meaningless game anyhow. Its not like it was a game 7 or something like that. It just a matter of Boston winning 1 game rather than getting swept and the Cavs as a whole definitely fell asleep at the wheel in that game.
Bro...Your kinda late with the response...I posted that the same day of Game 3 in Cleveland..lol
And it also looks like i was right on the money...Cavs still sweep in five..lol
I don't always check threads the same days as games. A point is still a point regardless. It just seemed strange that you would bring it up which is why I replied. It was his only bad games of the playoffs in an almost meaningless game 3 so using the word choke just seemed out of place to me. Choking is usually reserved for big games where there is lots of pressure.
I get where your coming from but a point does loss some of its power if enough times passes becuase some of the context gets muddled.
And the only reason why i posted it in the first place, is becuase i had just finished watching game 3 and decided to share my very brief assessment of the game.
Your right he might have not choked becuase i did hear that he may have been sick(Which is justified)...But initially at-least to me it looked very much like a choke job becuase he completely dominated the first two games(Put up Jordan numbers) and then when everybody was expecting Bron to do the same in game 3 at home, he only drops 15 points and the Cavs untimely lose the game.
The only way Cavs get beat in 4 or 5, is if LeBron dies, lmao. No way would a near peak, fully rested LeBron, Kyrie, and a resurgent Love, getting wasted that badly by any team.
Where does Steph Curry rank on your all-time point guard list? Imo he is #3. 73-win season, 2 rings, 2 MVPs (one of them is unanimous), led the league in scoring and steals, all-star, 50-40-90 club, has virtually every 3-point record there is (some of them he has broken his own multiple times), and is an all-NBA teamer. Add in his handles and being the best shooter of all time, and I think it is clear. Only Magic and Oscar Robertson can say they were better, and Oscar Robertson probably won't be able to say that by the time Steph's career is over
@jayc1324: Magic and Oscar still above for sure. At this point I think its kind of a disservice to judge his career since he still has 4-5 strong years left in him most likely so to compare him to guys who had 15+ year careers is sort of unfair to him and them. I would say top 7 for sure but has the potential to finish top 3-4. Maybe even as high as second. I think there are still strong arguments you could make for guys like Stockton, Kidd, Payton, Frazier and maybe some others who were much better defensively and played longer right now.
@jayc1324: Magic and Oscar still above for sure. At this point I think its kind of a disservice to judge his career since he still has 4-5 strong years left in him most likely so to compare him to guys who had 15+ year careers is sort of unfair to him and them. I would say top 7 for sure but has the potential to finish top 3-4. Maybe even as high as second. I think there are still strong arguments you could make for guys like Stockton, Kidd, Payton, Frazier and maybe some others who were much better defensively and played longer right now.
Yeah I can see that argument. Stockton will have the record for all time assists and steals for a long time, and Kidd is number 2 in both those categories. My reasoning though is that Steph still gets a lot of steals and is overall a plus on defense, and he has MVPs which puts him a little over these guys in my opinion. I would say rings too, since only Kidd and Payton have a ring, but people usually get salty when rings are used for these types of discussions lol
@jayc1324: I think rings and mvps factor in but there is always some degree of context with rings. The mvps are nice though Nash also has two of those. He could prob still be placed above Steph as well. Give Steph another 4-5 solid years by his standards and he prob has at least one more ring and is top 3-4. I could see him finishing as a top 25 player of all time. Maybe top 20.
Stephen Curry will easily be the 3rd Best Point Guard of All Time. He could possibly even surpass Oscar Robertson for Number 2 IMO. Depending on how many More Rings he wins and if he wins another MVP.
Stephen Curry will easily be the 3rd Best Point Guard of All Time. He could possibly even surpass Oscar Robertson for Number 2 IMO. Depending on how many More Rings he wins and if he wins another MVP.
Curry is the most accomplished Point Guard in an era dominated by point guards..
Dude has two rings, two mvps, numerous shooting records and he isnt even hit 30.
If he wins one more ring, leads his team to another 65 plus wins regular season and has a performance like he had in this years finals, you gotta put him on that all time greats list...Certainly not Mount Rushmore but top 12 definitely.
Curry is the most accomplished Point Guard in an era dominated by point guards..
Dude has two rings, two mvps, numerous shooting records and he isnt even hit 30.
If he wins one more ring, leads his team to another 65 plus wins regular season and has a performance like he had in this years finals, you gotta put him on that all time greats list...Certainly not Mount Rushmore but top 12 definitely.
Don't agree at all that one more ring puts him in the top 12. He hasn't even won a fmvp yet for the two rings he has. Metric wise he just doesn't measure up to the guys who are currently in the top 20. I could go into all of that but I don't really feel like doing that right now. I'd say he needs 4-5 more seasons like he's had lately(not counting his 2015-16 season which he will prob never duplicate playing with Durant) and then he's safely into the top 20. He needs some fmvps to really solidify being in that top 15 range for me. To get into the top 12 would take a lot. I don't even put Kobe in my top 12. Then you have guys like Oscar and Hakeem who are just barely in it.
Curry is the most accomplished Point Guard in an era dominated by point guards..
Dude has two rings, two mvps, numerous shooting records and he isnt even hit 30.
If he wins one more ring, leads his team to another 65 plus wins regular season and has a performance like he had in this years finals, you gotta put him on that all time greats list...Certainly not Mount Rushmore but top 12 definitely.
Don't agree at all that one more ring puts him in the top 12. He hasn't even won a fmvp yet for the two rings he has. Metric wise he just doesn't measure up to the guys who are currently in the top 20. I could go into all of that but I don't really feel like doing that right now. I'd say he needs 4-5 more seasons like he's had lately(not counting his 2015-16 season which he will prob never duplicate playing with Durant) and then he's safely into the top 20. He needs some fmvps to really solidify being in that top 15 range for me. To get into the top 12 would take a lot. I don't even put Kobe in my top 12. Then you have guys like Oscar and Hakeem who are just barely in it.
Well like i said if he can repeat this season he makes it into my top 12..Finals MVP isnt a deal breaker for me, especially since hes playing with such a talent like KD....And Kobes definitely in my top five.
I mean its all subjective Barbershop conversation anyway..There is no definitive top 12....It depends on what your looking for or what you value most in a player or which players particularly stood out to you personally...Some people(Usually older people) dont even have MJ in their top five.
@jumpstart55: I agree its largely subjective. I just don't think Curry would be close to top 12 with another ring or few more good seasons. I think a lot of people wouldn't put him there yet. He is a great shooter but I think guys in the top 12 need to be really good at more than just that plus having been dominant players in the league for quite a while. Curry as of right now has only been named 1st team all nba twice which is fair I think. Realistically I think his ceiling is top 20.
@jumpstart55: I agree its largely subjective. I just don't think Curry would be close to top 12 with another ring or few more good seasons. I think a lot of people wouldn't put him there yet. He is a great shooter but I think guys in the top 12 need to be really good at more than just that plus having been dominant players in the league for quite a while. Curry as of right now has only been named 1st team all nba twice which is fair I think.
Thats fair..
But then again winning rings does increase your stock alot in terms of NBA rankings...But If (and its a big if) he hits four i think alot of people will be ready to rank him high...He may not be their best player,but KD has stated in interviews that Curry is unquestionably Goldenstates leader, he also said that Curry is the guy they follow and draw energy from..And when the chips are down they seek his leadership...So that mean a 6 foot 3 point guard would have lead his team to four rings....Thats gotta count for something..
@jumpstart55: It would but I also think some would argue KD's assertion of him being their emotional leader. I think many would say that is Draymond. Curry has also sort of disappeared at times in the biggest games. Rings matter but I think overall dominance is a big factor once you get that high. Even to get to 15 would mean being ranked ahead of guys like KG, Barkley, Malone, Dirk and DRob. Those are guys who were dominant in the league for 10-12 years and some of whom won a ring and were dpoy to go with mvp. So I need to see him being at an all league level for another 3-4 years just to put him in my top 20. Metrics would also have to support his case for me.
Rings don't equal greatness in a team sport. Ewing, Malone, Miller, Barkley, Stockton and so on are all time greats with no championships.
Who said they did?...Id say the Hall of Fame is a better measure of greatness then rings per say.
But being a leader on a championship wining team does help with the Barberhsop debates, and all time rankings...Its what separates the greats from the greats according to most people....And Malone, Miller, Ewing, Barkely and John Stockton all suffered big time becuase of Jordan..So much so that many people are diminishing what they did as proof that Jordan never faced a great team and had rather weak competition...I personally think thats hogwash but its something that has been reiterated by many sports journalist...Especially those that seek to elevate Lebron above MJ becuase of his poor finals record..So my point is rings do matter in terms of historical placement....Which is why KD jumped on board Goldenstate he feared becoming another Barkley or Malone..I.e a great player but never a champion...
...And many players in the league today share that same fear...Barkely said it still bothers him that he couldn't win a ring...Allen Iverson aswell.
Records and stats can always be broken but Rings always remain...Thats why theres so much emphasis on great players winning a ring, its one of the few things you can never take away from a player.
@khael: For sure. For me though because Kyrie and IT are almost equals in my mind Cavs got the better deal because ALONG with Isaiah they got that Nets pick and we all know the Nets are gonna suck this season. They also got a decent 3-and-D wing in the form of Crowder.
Honestly, don't see how this trade changes anything in the east, at least right now. I would still take Cleveland over the Celts in a 7 game series as it stands
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