The Evidence for Evolution

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willpayton

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@g-dude said:

Only he can convince the mind and convict the heart wholly if you allow Him.

So I have to believe in God in order to be able to believe in God?

@g-dude said:

I believe it takes more faith or scientific uncertainty to believe in evolution than creation lol.

Believing in evolution takes no faith. The evidence for it speaks for itself. If you think it takes more faith to believe something which is rooted in facts and evidence than it takes to believe in something which has no facts or evidence, then you might want to ponder why you believe that.

There's a reason why Evolution is accepted in the United States, and in China, in Russia, in Europe, in Africa, and in every part of the world by people of every nationality, race, and religion. Because it's based on verifiable facts.

There's a reason why people only tend to believe in religions when they're raised in it. Because it's based on indoctrination and emotion.

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G-Dude

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#702  Edited By G-Dude

@willpayton: Yea, I know you are being sarcastic, but if you don't want to believe God exists He won't force you, till the day you realize he does exist. If God or I forced you to accept him immediately as your creator that would be real hell, so thank God he gave us free will. Pure religion isn't forced and I won't force you neither should your parents especially after the age of 18 or so. Real Christians have religion to set ethical boundaries and thus are given the love of Christ as a moral compass. I'm sure you heard this quote before. The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was to convince the world he didn't exist. Let me ask you something have you been raised to believe in Christianity?

The last sentence is far too generalized and vague. There have been many people who have grown up believing evolution and others have grown up in Christianity and have converted or changed sides.

China is a good example because they have completely outlawed Christianity for how much it interferes with their theistic beliefs, convenient. Such a statement does not prove a point. Of course there going to be people abused in religion, it's a world filled with some immoral people who can do as they please and make the worse of it at times unfortunately. Others might of thought their world was limited by religion. Money and reputation are great things but if those values are attained only for ourselves while neglecting the reality of others who need assistance what does it profit. I am cutting through the Christian core a bit and dissecting it, however, true Christians do not abide by those standards and others shouldn't let those conceptual perceptions of false religion conform their beliefs of God's existence or supposedly thought non-existence. Pure religion in the Bible is this;

22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror 24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25 But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.

26 Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless. 27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

And also

My dear brothers and sisters, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, 20 because human anger does not produce the righteousness that God desires. 21 Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.

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BlackLegRaph

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@blacklegraph said:

*Sigh. How many times am I going to have to point out that you can't substantiate a negative? It's not terribly clever trying to avoid the issue that way.

If you believe that you cant substantiate a negative then why did you make a whole post full of negative claims?

And BTW yes you can support negative claims just like you can substantiate positive ones, it's just usually harder. For example: "There are no bottles on my desk." That's a negative claim. Evidence: photo of my desk showing there are no bottles on it. Simple.

And i'm not sure which claim that I made that you're saying that I need to provide evidence for. Tell me what it is and I will happily provide it. I'm not afraid to support my claims with evidence and this entire thread in case you didnt notice is an example of that. I'm not the one making posts full of claims that by my own admission I cant back up.

In response to your positive claim of course. Or did you forget that you just stated something was a fact prior to my response? Thus, the onus was (and still is) on you to validate that claim.

Naturally, any response to a positive claim would be a negative, e.g Claim, "There are unicorns roaming around in Italy." Response "There are no reports of unicorns roaming in Italy." For the claimant to then ask the responder to substantiate a negative is either ignorance or willful dishonesty.

I hope I don't have to point out the difference between a desk and the entire world. If one wants someone to show them a photograph of every inch of the entire world to dismiss the claim that leprechauns are bathing in a pot of gold somewhere, then there is obviously something wrong.

Your claims included that birds evolving from dinosaurs is a fact. Yet your response to counter-points putting that into question was to appeal to some unknown work in obscurity that proves your point but no one knows about.

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willpayton

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@willpayton said:
@blacklegraph said:

*Sigh. How many times am I going to have to point out that you can't substantiate a negative? It's not terribly clever trying to avoid the issue that way.

If you believe that you cant substantiate a negative then why did you make a whole post full of negative claims?

And BTW yes you can support negative claims just like you can substantiate positive ones, it's just usually harder. For example: "There are no bottles on my desk." That's a negative claim. Evidence: photo of my desk showing there are no bottles on it. Simple.

And i'm not sure which claim that I made that you're saying that I need to provide evidence for. Tell me what it is and I will happily provide it. I'm not afraid to support my claims with evidence and this entire thread in case you didnt notice is an example of that. I'm not the one making posts full of claims that by my own admission I cant back up.

In response to your positive claim of course. Or did you forget that you just stated something was a fact prior to my response? Thus, the onus was (and still is) on you to validate that claim.

Naturally, any response to a positive claim would be a negative, e.g Claim, "There are unicorns roaming around in Italy." Response "There are no reports of unicorns roaming in Italy." For the claimant to then ask the responder to substantiate a negative is either ignorance or willful dishonesty.

I hope I don't have to point out the difference between a desk and the entire world. If one wants someone to show them a photograph of every inch of the entire world to dismiss the claim that leprechauns are bathing in a pot of gold somewhere, then there is obviously something wrong.

Your claims included that birds evolving from dinosaurs is a fact. Yet your response to counter-points putting that into question was to appeal to some unknown work in obscurity that proves your point but no one knows about.

No, a response to a positive claim is to ask for evidence, not to make your own claim that you cant substantiate. Your example is invalid because that's not what you did. You didnt say "I havent seen any evidence for birds evolving from dinosaurs", you said "there is no evidence for birds evolving from dinosaurs". Even the way your phrased your example is wrong because how exactly would you know that there are no reports of unicorns in Italy? Did you talk to every single person in Italy?

And I gave evidence in the form of multiple peer-reviewed articles. Calling them "unknown work in obscurity" is nonsense. What you mean is "i'm not going to read them and just keep asking for other evidence". The evidence was given, which you just admitted and then admitted to ignoring. Also all the articles I gave are from respected journals and have been sited hundreds of times in other publications. Again, you seem to be making claims here to back up your lack of understanding or of even looking at what was presented.

I'm not going to waste time giving more evidence because you just admitted to ignoring the ones I did give... and I went out of my way to find 6 articles that not only give great evidence, but are all peer-reviewed, sited, and from respected scientists. If I had given 100, that's just 100 you would have ignored.

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dshipp17

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#705  Edited By dshipp17

@bullpr said:

@dshipp17: 10 months ago.

Page 6.

Post 276.

My first post to you in this thread.

Still waiting.

I saw it, but, it's almost as if posts were deleted and/or modified; but, it appears that I was also in a conversation about peer-reviewed studies with another poster, when you interjected yourself; I told that poster that there were peer-reviewed studies, in general; and, you wouldn't let the IF>5 go; so, apologies, you added this stipulation to another poster's request for general peer-reviewed studies; there are many peer-reviewed studies that cast a great deal of doubt on evolution; because they may not appear in IF>5 studies doesn't make them go away, it just shows that the studies are not being allowed into those types of journals; the studies are there to be seen, where they're supported by actual, physical evidence; thus, when someone says there's no evidence, that's a false or misleading claim; they just may not appear in a certain class of journals for reasons other than the application of science and the scientific method. If you modify this stipulation, we can pick it up; I'll search through those class of journals, but, I believe that the paper I last posted referenced a paper from one of those journals (r.g. cast doubt on the notion that birds evolved from dinosaurs).

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BullPR

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#706  Edited By BullPR

@blacklegraph said:

(...)

Your claims included that birds evolving from dinosaurs is a fact.

And my tag?

And my source with IF>5???

Let me show you what I'm talking about.

Below an abstract of an article supporting the evidence that birds evolve from dinosaurs. It is from a few weeks ago. The journal is peer-reviewed. The IF>5.

You even have some genetics data in the paper.

See simple.

Now review and write a rebuttal of this evidence, supported by papers with IF>5.

Or keep talking talking talking blablablablabala

The full paper will be in my next post if I can post something that long.

@willpayton: he is never going to stop talking without ever supporting his claims with scientific studies published in rigorous peer-reviewed papers with IF>5.

You should stop waste your time my friend.

Edit: I forgot to tag our second creationist @dshipp17, Sorry about that. I tagged him in the post with the full paper, but he should be able to read the abstract first to see if he/she is interested. A genetic basis for macro-evolution from dinosaurs to birds, found after analysis of data from high-throughput sequencing, I'm sure you will love it. Looking forward for your rebuttal. For a quick guideline on how to have a scientific one, not based on blablablabla, see posts below.

Nat Commun. 2017 Feb 6;8:14229. doi: 10.1038/ncomms14229.

Functional roles of Aves class-specific cis-regulatory elements on macroevolution of bird-specific features.

Seki R1,2, Li C3,4,5, Fang Q3,4, Hayashi S2,6, Egawa S2, Hu J3, Xu L3, Pan H3,4, Kondo M2, Sato T2, Matsubara H2, Kamiyama N2, Kitajima K2, Saito D2,7, Liu Y3, Gilbert MT5,8, Zhou Q9, Xu X10, Shiroishi T1, Irie N11, Tamura K2, Zhang G3,4,12.

Author information

1
Mammalian Genetics Laboratory, Genetic Strains Research Center, National Institute of Genetics, 1111 Yata, Mishima, Shizuoka 411-8540, Japan.
2
Department of Developmental Biology and Neurosciences, Graduate School of Life Sciences, Tohoku University, Aobayama 6-3, Aoba-ku, Sendai 980-8578, Japan.
3
State Key Laboratory of Genetic Resources and Evolution, Kunming Institute of Zoology, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Kunming 650223, China.
4
China National GeneBank, BGI-Shenzhen, Shenzhen 518083, China.
5
Centre for GeoGenetics, Natural History Museum of Denmark, University of Copenhagen, Copenhagen 1350, Denmark.
6
Department of Genetics, Cell Biology and Development, University of Minnesota, 321 Church Street SE, Minneapolis, Minnesota 55455, USA.
7
Frontier Research Institute for Interdisciplinary Sciences (FRIS), Tohoku University, Aobayama 6-3, Aoba-ku, Sendai 980-8578, Japan.
8
Norwegian University of Science and Technology, University Museum, N-7491 Trondheim, Norway.
9
Department of Integrative Biology University of California, Berkeley, California 94720, USA.
10
Key Laboratory of Vertebrate Evolution and Human Origins, Institute of Vertebrate Paleontology and Paleoanthropology, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Beijing 100044, China.
11
Department of Biological Sciences, Graduate School of Science, University of Tokyo, 7-3-1 Hongo, Bunkyo-ku, Tokyo 113-0033, Japan.
12
Centre for Social Evolution, Department of Biology, Universitetsparken 15, University of Copenhagen, Copenhagen 2100, Denmark.

Abstract

Unlike microevolutionary processes, little is known about the genetic basis of macroevolutionary processes. One of these magnificent examples is the transition from non-avian dinosaurs to birds that has created numerous evolutionary innovations such as self-powered flight and its associated wings with flight feathers. By analysing 48 bird genomes, we identified millions of avian-specific highly conserved elements (ASHCEs) that predominantly (>99%) reside in non-coding regions. Many ASHCEs show differential histone modifications that may participate in regulation of limb development. Comparative embryonic gene expression analyses across tetrapod species suggest ASHCE-associated genes have unique roles in developing avian limbs. In particular, we demonstrate how the ASHCE driven avian-specific expression of gene Sim1 driven by ASHCE may be associated with the evolution and development of flight feathers. Together, these findings demonstrate regulatory roles of ASHCEs in the creation of avian-specific traits, and further highlight the importance of cis-regulatory rewiring during macroevolutionary changes.

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willpayton

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@bullpr said:

@willpayton: he is never going to stop talking without ever supporting his claims with scientific studies published in rigorous peer-reviewed papers with IF>5.

You should stop waste your time my friend.

Agreed

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BullPR

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#708  Edited By BullPR

Below the full article.

So our estimates creationists can read it and argue against it.

I went back to the beginning of the thread.

Both @blacklegraph and dshipp17 are always using the same tactic.

A flood or words without scientific papers (IF>5 is not that hard to find!!!) to support their claim.

blablabla.

I would strongly suggest to ignore their posts as long as they don't play by the rule of a normal scientific debate where blablablablablab are replaced by real scientific studies. Where you have access to the raw data.

I proposed as source of their claim IF>5.

But we can ask for another minimal value of the impact factor

ARTICLE

Received 25 Apr 2016 | Accepted 12 Dec 2016 | Published 6 Feb 2017

Functional roles of Aves class-specific

cis-regulatory elements on macroevolution

of bird-specific features

Ryohei Seki1,2,*, Cai Li3,4,5,*, Qi Fang3,4, Shinichi Hayashi2,6, Shiro Egawa2, Jiang Hu3, Luohao Xu3, Hailin Pan3,4,

Mao Kondo2, Tomohiko Sato2, Haruka Matsubara2, Namiko Kamiyama2, Keiichi Kitajima2, Daisuke Saito2,7,

Yang Liu3, M. Thomas P. Gilbert5,8, Qi Zhou9, Xing Xu10, Toshihiko Shiroishi1, Naoki Irie11, Koji Tamura2

& Guojie Zhang3,4,12

Unlike microevolutionary processes, little is known about the genetic basis of

macroevolutionary processes. One of these magnificent examples is the transition from

non-avian dinosaurs to birds that has created numerous evolutionary innovations such as

self-powered flight and its associated wings with flight feathers. By analysing 48 bird

genomes, we identified millions of avian-specific highly conserved elements (ASHCEs)

that predominantly (499%) reside in non-coding regions. Many ASHCEs show differential

histone modifications that may participate in regulation of limb development. Comparative

embryonic gene expression analyses across tetrapod species suggest ASHCE-associated

genes have unique roles in developing avian limbs. In particular, we demonstrate how the

ASHCE driven avian-specific expression of gene Sim1 driven by ASHCE may be associated

with the evolution and development of flight feathers. Together, these findings demonstrate

regulatory roles of ASHCEs in the creation of avian-specific traits, and further highlight the

importance of cis-regulatory rewiring during macroevolutionary changes.

DOI: 10.1038/ncomms14229 OPEN

1 Mammalian Genetics Laboratory, Genetic Strains Research Center, National Institute of Genetics, 1111 Yata, Mishima, Shizuoka 411-8540, Japan.

2 Department of Developmental Biology and Neurosciences, Graduate School of Life Sciences, Tohoku University, Aobayama 6-3, Aoba-ku, Sendai 980-8578,

Japan. 3 State Key Laboratory of Genetic Resources and Evolution, Kunming Institute of Zoology, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Kunming 650223, China.

4 China National GeneBank, BGI-Shenzhen, Shenzhen 518083, China. 5 Centre for GeoGenetics, Natural History Museum of Denmark, University of

Copenhagen, Copenhagen 1350, Denmark. 6 Department of Genetics, Cell Biology and Development, University of Minnesota, 321 Church Street SE,

Minneapolis, Minnesota 55455, USA. 7 Frontier Research Institute for Interdisciplinary Sciences (FRIS), Tohoku University, Aobayama 6-3, Aoba-ku, Sendai

980-8578, Japan. 8 Norwegian University of Science and Technology, University Museum, N-7491 Trondheim, Norway. 9 Department of Integrative Biology

University of California, Berkeley, California 94720, USA. 10 Key Laboratory of Vertebrate Evolution and Human Origins, Institute of Vertebrate Paleontology

and Paleoanthropology, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Beijing 100044, China. 11 Department of Biological Sciences, Graduate School of Science, University of

Tokyo, 7-3-1 Hongo, Bunkyo-ku, Tokyo 113-0033, Japan. 12 Centre for Social Evolution, Department of Biology, Universitetsparken 15, University of

Copenhagen, Copenhagen 2100, Denmark. * These authors contributed equally to this work. Correspondence and requests for materials should be addressed

to N.I. (email: irie@bs.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp) or to K.T. (email: tam@m.tohoku.ac.jp) or to G.Z. (email: zhanggj@genomics.cn).

NATURE COMMUNICATIONS | 8:14229 | DOI: 10.1038/ncomms14229 |www.nature.com/naturecommunications 1

It has been argued for several decades that the phenotypic

variations within and between species can be established by

modification of cis-regulatory elements, which can alter the

tempo and mode of gene expression1. Nevertheless, we still have

little knowledge about the genetic basis of macroevolutionary

transitions that produced the phenotypic novelties that led to the

great leap of evolution and adaptation to new environment.

Although numerous efforts have been made to study the

evolutionary roles of newly evolved genes in a limited numbers

of model species2, little is known about how the genetic changes

underlying the major transitions occurred in the deep time, and

how they were maintained through long-term macroevolution.

Birds represent the most recently evolved class of vertebrates,

characterized by many specialized functional, physiological and

ecological traits, including self-powered flight, bipedality and

endothermy3,4. Numerous avian traits and their precursory stages

are evident in their theropod dinosaur ancestors and maintained

to the bird lineage, as seen in their capacity for flight (such as the

large stiff pennaceous flight feathers, air-sacs, three-digit

forelimbs that developed into wings, pneumatic bones and

others)4–7. Despite extensive paleontological and anatomical

studies on birds and their near close relatives, the genetic

background for these emerging specializations remains unclear.

The underlying genes and/or their cis-regulatory elements are

expected to be maintained by strong selective constraints

throughout the avian class, and show distinctive differences

from other non-avian species.

One possible expectation from the conserved functions is a

high level of sequence conservation over long evolutionary

timeframes as reported in other animal groups8,9. Comparative

genomics provides a powerful tool for identifying these

elements8,9. For instance, genomic comparison across 29

mammalian species revealed that over 5% of the human

genome consists of highly constrained sequences across all

vertebrates, including a large number of previously

uncharacterized functional elements9. As new genomes

are released across an increasing diversity of species, the

lineage-specific spectrum of highly conserved elements can be

ascertained, and should offer new possibilities for understanding

the evolutionary and developmental mechanisms for

lineage-specific traits under adaptation.

Here we identify avian specific highly conserved elements

(ASHCEs) by comparing the genomes of 48 avian species that

represent the evolutionary history and diversity of extant birds,

against a broad sampling of other vertebrate species. Remarkably,

499% of the ASHCEs are located in non-coding regions, and

appear to be enriched with regulatory functions. Through further

characterization using functional assessment, expression studies,

and large-scale in situ comparative embryonic expression analysis

for genes with most highly conserved ASHCEs, we identify

several candidate genes functionally linked with bird-specific

traits appear in the limbs. Furthermore, we provide evidence that

supports a role for Sim1 in the evolution of flight feathers.

Results

Rare gene innovation but many gains of regulatory elements.

Although there are more than 10,500 extant species of birds,

overall the class exibits smaller and more compact genomes than

any other vertebrate class, and birds have furthermore lost

thousands of the protein-coding genes in their common ancestors

after the split from other reptiles10,11. By applying gene family

clustering analyses across multiple genomes representing birds,

mammals, fishes and other reptiles, we found that bird genomes

have on average a relatively lower number of paralogous copies

within protein-coding gene families than other vertebrates

(Fig. 1a). This result implies that innovation of protein-coding

genes might not play a large role in the processes underlying the

transitions from dinosaur to the bird lineage. As an alternate

explanation, King and Wilson12 proposed the regulatory

hypothesis, in which gene regulation may play an important

role in species evolution. We directly tested this hypothesis at the

macroevolution level by examining the genomic regions under

strong purifying selection across all birds, and investigated if large

part of these conserved sequences have regulatory roles, and

have essential role in shaping avian-specific traits, including

morphological features.

To identify genomic elements that possess specific functions

for birds, we constructed a multiple-way whole-genome

alignment for 48 avian and 9 non-avian vertebrate species

spanning reptile, mammal, amphibian and fish. The 48 birds

represent nearly all extant avian orders, and 4100 million years

of evolutionary history11. Using the phylogenetic hidden Markov

model8, we identify over 1.44 million highly conserved elements

(HCEs) among the avian genomes, that are at least 20 bp in length

and that are evolving significantly slower than would be expected

under neutral evolution. We then determined which of these

HCEs had either no orthologues in non-avian outgroups (Type I),

or whose orthologues exhibit significantly higher substitution

rates among outgroups (Type II; Fig. 1b). The genomic regions

displaying such unique conservation pattern among birds are

subsequently defined as avian-specific HCEs (ASHCEs). In total,

our analysis predicted 265,984 ASHCEs (Z20 bp), representing

nearly 1% of the avian genome (ca. 11 Mbp in total,

Supplementary Table 3). These ASHCEs had an extremely low

substitution rate (about 0.0004 substitutions per site per million

years, Supplementary Table 7), Bfivefold lower than the

whole-genome average.

The highly conserved nature of ASHCEs suggests that

mutations within them may have deleterious consequences. If

so, we would also expect a lower polymorphism rate in ASHCE

regions. We tested this by assessing the sequence polymorphism

pattern within chicken populations13, and indeed, the frequency

of SNPs in ASHCEs (1.27 SNPs per kb) is more than two times

lower than the whole-genome average (2.59 SNPs per kb; w2-test,

Po2.2e_16; Supplementary Table 8), and is comparable to the

average level in coding regions (1.29 SNPs per kb). These results

therefore suggest ASHCEs have not only been under strong

selective constraints during long-term avian evolution, but also at

the recent intra-specific level.

ASHCEs predominate in non-coding regulatory regions. The

preferential targets of strong purifying selection are usually on

protein-coding regions9, for example, 17.55% of HCEs lie within

coding regions, some three-fold higher than the percentage of

coding regions in whole genome (Fig. 1c). We were therefore

surprised to observe, that the proportion of ASHCEs that lie

within coding regions was ca. 50-fold lower (0.31%, Fig. 1c). The

predominance of non-coding sequences within lineage-specific

HCEs seems to be a distinguishing feature for the avian lineage,

as mammalian-specific HCEs identified using the same method

consist of a higher fraction of coding sequences (4.1%;

Supplementary Table 5). This result corroborates the above

observation that very few lineage-specific genes emerged in the

avian genome, suggesting changes in non-coding regulatory

sequences might play a more important role in the emergence of

avian evolutionary innovations than the acquisition of novel

protein-coding genes. It provides strong evidence to support the

recent hypothesis that the principal evolutionary changes might

be governed by complex non-coding regulatory networks14.

Consistent with the expectation that ASHCEs might contain

regulatory elements, we found that about 58% of the ASHCEs

(TFBS). What is more, 99 TFBS motifs are statistically overrepresented

(Supplementary Table 9) in ASHCEs in comparison

with their genome-wide background level, and 23 of the

corresponding transcription factors were predicted to be involved

in regulation of developmental processes (Supplementary

Table 9). For example, the transcription factor Sox2, which is

important for the maintenance of pluripotency in epiblast

and embryonic stem cells in mouse15, has a significantly

higher number of binding motifs in ASHCEs than expected

(Q valueo0.05, calculated by GAT; Supplementary Table 9).

Furthermore, analysis of chicken transcriptome data indicated

that 1.62Mb (14.8%) of ASHCEs were transcribed in at least one

tissue, and computational analysis identified 5,511 stable

secondary structures among these ASHCEs (Supplementary

Table 10). We also hypothesized that some of these ASHCEs

might function as non-coding RNAs involved in regulation of

their host gene expression. Subsequent investigation revealed that

25 long non-coding RNAs (lncRNAs) overlap with ASHCEs, and

two of these lncRNAs are differentially expressed during chicken

embryonic development (Supplementary Fig. 1). In addition, we

found that almost half of the ASHCEs (43.1% in length) lay inside

(within an intron) or adjacent to protein-coding regions (within

10 kb upstream/downstream range of a gene), further implying a

role as cis-regulatory elements.

Chromatin-state landscape of ASHCEs. To assess potential

involvement of ASHCEs in gene regulation, we performed

genome-wide chromatin immunoprecipitation sequencing

(ChIP-seq) for histone modification, since previous studies have

shown a strong correlation of chromatin states with functional

elements, such as promoters, enhancers, and transcribed

regions16,17. Because H3K4me1, H3K27ac and H3K27me3

histone markers are often reported to associate with regulatory

elements16, we have investigated these modifications in whole

embryos at three key embryonic developmental stages in the

chicken, including Hamburger and Hamilton stage18 16 (HH16),

HH21 and HH32, and limb tissues at HH21 and HH32 (Fig. 2a)

with two biological replicates. We further identified peaks of the

histone markers in each sample based on the mapping results for

ChIP-seq reads. Scanning the chicken genome showed that

over 25% of ASHCEs were within peaks of at least one of the

histone markers (Fig. 2b). This ratio is significantly higher

than the ratio of the whole-genome background, suggesting an

over-representation of ASHCEs with a regulatory function

(Fig. 2b). Overall, all three histone modifications displayed the

expected patterns with respect to the transcription start site (TSS)

of whole-genome genes, showing histone modification signal

peaking with narrow window around TSS of all genes in whole

genome (Fig. 2c). Interestingly, ASHCE-associated genes which

were defined by genes with ASHCEs within their genic region or

Figure 1 | Characterization of ASHCEs. (a) Average sizes of gene families in different vertebrate species. Species in different phylogenetic groups were

coloured in different colours. See Supplementary Table 1 for the list of species used in this analysis. (b) Illustration of two types of ASHCEs. The type I

ASHCEs are conserved in birds but have no homologous sequence in other vertebrate outgroups; the type II ASHCEs are conserved in birds and have

rudimentary homologous sequences in outgroup species, but the sequence conservation is significantly low to be detected as homologous between birds

and other vertebrates. See Methods section for more details about the identification method of ASHCEs. (c) Functional classification of all HCEs and

ASHCEs in chicken genome.

within 10 kb upstream/downstream of the transcription start or

termination sites, contain a significantly higher level of

overlapping rate with histone modificated regions in these

embryonic stages compared with the average level of all genes

from the whole genome (Fig. 2c, Supplementary Table 17,

P valueo0.05, calculated by GAT). This suggests regulation of

these genes may have become more rigorously controlled and

maintained during the development.

Figure 2 | Enriched histone marks in ASHCEs. (a) Schematic representation of ChIP-seq experiments. Whole embryo samples from HH16/HH21/HH32

stages and limb samples (red parts on embryos) from HH21/HH32 stages were collected for generating ChIP-seq data of three enhancer-associated

histone modification marks (H3K4me1, H3K27ac and H3K27me3). (b) Over-representation of enhancer histone marks in ASHCEs. **Po0.001 (calculated

by GAT). ‘All three marks’ means using the non-redundant union set of three types of peaks. (c) Average occupancy patterns of histone marks along the

genic and 10 kb flanking regions of ASHCE-associated genes and whole-genome genes. The fold enrichment values are normalized density relative to the

input samples. The gene body length is aligned by percentage from the transcription start site (TSS) to transcription termination site (TTS). The upstream

regions of genes show elevated occupancy relative to gene body and downstream regions. H3K4me1 and H3K27ac of ASHCEs show over-representation

relative to genome background in gene body as well as in up- and downstream 10 kb regions, except that the region very near TSS has weak or no

over-representation. H3K27me3 also shows over-representation in up- and downstream regions, but not in the gene body. (d) Over-representation of

differential histone marks in ASHCEs. The differential histone modification sites by comparing two samples at different developmental stages using

diffReps. **Po0.001, 0.001o*Po0.05 (calculated by GAT). ‘Expected’ means the expected total length of differential sites if we randomly choose the

same amount of loci as ASHCEs from whole genome. (e) A case of differential histone modification marks in the upstream of DLG1. Normalized fold

enrichment signals (normalized with input samples) of three histone marks at HH21 and HH32 stages are shown. The differential regions between HH21

and HH32 predicted by diffReps are also shown (bars under HH32 tracks).

To investigate the combinatory patterns of the three types of

histone modifications in the chicken genome, we ran

chromHMM19 to generate a four-state chromatin map for each

developmental stage by integrating the ChIP-seq profiles of three

marks. On the basis of the co-occurance patterns of the four states

(Supplementary Fig. 2), we classified them as ‘strong enhancer’,

‘weak enhancer’, ‘poised enhancer’ and ‘low signal’19

(Supplementary Fig. 2, Supplementary Table 18). Of note, the

states ‘strong enhancer’ and ‘weak enhancer’ are over-represented

in ASHCEs in all samples (Supplementary Table 19), further

comfirming the regulatory roles of ASHCEs.

Moreover, dynamic changes of histone modification in

ASHCEs were observed during chicken development after

pharyngular stages (Fig. 2d,e and Supplementary Table 20,

P valueo0.05, calculated by GAT). ASHCE-associated genes

are enriched with genomic sites showing different histone

modification during development (Fig. 2d), and the same pattern

can also be observed when comparing the chromHMM states

between different developmental stages (Supplementary

Table 21). The change was most dramatic in the H3K27ac

marker (Fig. 2d), which is known to be positively correlated

with active enhancers20. For example, an upstream ASHCE of the

gene DLG1, which is found involved in embryo development

in mouse21, exhibits downregulated H3K4me1/H3K27ac and

upregulated H3K27me3 at the HH32 stage compared with HH21

(Fig. 2e), suggesting a transition of the underlying regulatory

function during development.

We also found some ASHCEs harboured sites that show

significantly upregulated histone modification in limb samples

than in whole embryo samples (Supplementary Table 22), and

many TFBSs were also found over-represented in these regions

(Supplementary Table 23). These ASHCEs might be associated

with the limb-specific enhancer functions. For instance, of the

16 ASHCE-associated genes, which are assigned with the GO

function of ‘limb development’ (GO:0060173, Supplementary

Tables 24,25), we observed ASHCEs harhoring significantly

upregulated H3K27ac signal in the limb samples relative to the

whole embryo samples in five genes (FMN1, GLI3, LEF1, MEOX2

and PRRX1) (Supplementary Fig. 3). This implies that these

ASHCEs may contribute to the regulation of limb development.

Functional roles of ASHCE-genes in development. We then

investigated the potential function of these ASHCE-associated

genes by generating a ranked list of candidate genes based on the

conservation level of each gene’s associated ASHCEs, and

subjected them to statistical Gene Ontology enrichment analysis.

Here we found that the top 500 ASHCE-associated genes

were enriched in many of the functional categories related to

development (Fig. 3a; Supplementary Table 24). This enrichment

can also be seen for several categories relating to developmental

functions, even when we restricted the analysis to the top 100

genes (Supplementary Table 27). These significant GO terms

include embryo development (false discovery rate (FDR)-adjusted

P value¼2.44e_12, w2-test), head development (FDR-adjusted

P value¼1.29e_05, w2-test), and limb development (FDRadjusted

P value¼8.63e_05, w2-test; Supplementary Table 24).

We assessed their conservation level using the non-synonymous/

synonymous substitution rate (dN/dS). We found that they were

under stronger purifying selection than other genes as they had

a significantly lower dN/dS ratio (P valueo0.05, Wilcoxon

rank-sum test, Supplementary Table 28).

We next examined the potential involvement of ASHCEassociated

genes in the development of bird-specific features

by analysing stage-specific gene expressions at eight early-to-late

chicken embryonic developmental stages22,23. We found

significantly enriched numbers of ASHCE-associated genes

expressed when many avian-specific features become evident,

namely, at stages HH28 and HH38 (P¼0.0005 for HH28, and

P¼0.015 for HH38 using Fisher’s exact test, Fig. 3b). This is

consistent with the prediction deduced from the recently

supported hourglass model; genes involved in features related

to phylogenetic clades smaller than phylum appear earlier and

later than the conserved organogenesis stage, or phylotypic period

(stage that is considered to define the basic body plan for each

animal phylum)22,23. Gata3 and Grin2b were one of these

examples, which showed increased expression after the phylotypic

period in chicken (see Supplementary Table 34 for more of these

genes). We further explored ASHCE-associated genes that were

potentially involved in developing avian-specific features. By

selecting genes that show more than a fivefold change in

expression level after (either at HH28 or HH38) the phylotypic

period in chicken (HH16), and further excluding genes that

have orthologous counterparts in turtle (Pelodiscus sinensis) and

show similar expression change (4twofold changes) in turtle

embryogenesis, we found 13 ASHCE-associated genes that might

be candidates with a specific function in chicken development

(Supplementary Table 34). These genes include Gata3, Wnt4 and

Grin2b, all of which are reported to be functional components in

embryonic development. While these genes show a significantly

higher level of sequence conservation between birds and turtle

(measured by dN/dS ratio, Wilcoxon rank-sum test, P¼0.0398)

than other genes, the primary between clade difference of these

genes was the presence of ASHCEs in birds that might alter

their expression patterns. Together, these results suggest possible

involvement of ASHCEs-associated genes in developing

avian-specific features. However, as the whole embryonic

RNA-seq dataset we used in these analyses lacks anatomical

information (for example, where genes are expressed), we thus

decided to further investigate the role of ASHCE-associated genes

at the tissue levels.

Comparative expression analysis using in situ hybridization.

To validate how the changes of expression of ASHCE-associated

genes have contributed to the development of avian-specific

features, we compared cross-species embryonic gene expression

using in situ hybridization assays, with a particular focus on

developing limbs. In addition to the feathers on the forelimb

that are essential to avian flight, bird limbs have other

avian-characteristic features that include pneumatized bones,

anterior three-digits with short digit 1 in the wing, a wide range of

motion in the wrist, a parasagittal gait of the hindlimb, and long

metacarpal/metatarsals24–26. We thus examined the expression

pattern of each of 100 top-ranked ASHCE-associated genes

(sorted with the ASHCE phastCons log-odd score) in the

developing chicken limb bud at four different stages (from

initiation stage of limb development to differentiation stage

for limb structures such as the muscle, cartilage and feather;

HH20–22, 24–25, 27–29, and 31–33; see Supplementary Fig. 4 for

details). Of the 100 genes from ASHCEs-gene list, 30 showed

clear and localized expression in the chicken limb bud.

We then carried out a comparative analysis by examining the

expression pattern of these 30 genes in the mouse embryo at

comparable developmental stages (E10.0, E11.0, E12.5 and E13.5),

and found that 10 of these genes showed different expression

patterns between the chicken and the mouse (Supplementary

Fig. 5). To confirm whether the expression pattern of these

10 genes is unique to birds, we further examined the expression

pattern of the above-identified 10 genes in the gecko embryo

(Supplementary Fig. 6), and identified four candidate genes

(Inadl, Boc, Pax9 and Sim1) that exhibited an avian-specific

expression pattern in the developing limb. Inadl is expressed in

the region around digit cartilage, including phalangeal margin, in

both fore- and hindlimbs of the chicken embryo at the

differentiation stage of phalanges (HH33), but it is not expressed

in the corresponding regions of mouse and gecko embryos

(Supplementary Fig. 7a). The expression pattern of Boc is similar

between three species at the early stage (Supplementary Fig. 6g),

but the pattern differentiates at a later stage. Its expression is

restricted to the anterior side of the second metacarpal in the

chicken embryo at HH32, whereas there is no evident expression

in the hindlimb (Supplementary Fig. 7b). In constrast, such

restricted expression is neither observed in the mouse nor in the

gecko limb (Supplementary Fig. 7b). Pax9 shows a similar

expression pattern in the hindlimbs of chicken, mouse and gecko

(Supplementary Fig. 6i), but its expression was barely detectable

in the chicken forelimb at late embryonic stages (HH29 and

HH32); this contrasts with its high expression in the proximal

region of forelimb digit 1 of the mouse and gecko (Supplementary

Fig. 7c). Correlating with this is that the forelimb digit/metacarpal

1 in the bird are made up of relatively short bones and special

feathers (alula) that are essential for providing the lifting force for

flight27,28. The inactivation of this gene in mice results in many

abnormalities, including phenotypes in the limb such as

duplication of digit 1 (refs 29,30). The distinct expression

patterns of these genes in chicken when compared with mouse

and gecko, implies their unique roles in the bird lineage may be

regulated by the existing ASHCEs. What exactly their functions

are in avian development will be an interesting target for future

experimental investigation.

Sim1 is associated with flight feather development. The most

interesting gene that we identified as a candidate gene for the

development of avian-specific features is the transcription factor

Sim1, whose expression is specifically restricted to the posterior

margin of the developing forelimb at a late stage (HH32) of

the chicken limb development, and is neither detected at

corresponding regions in the hindlimb of chicken, nor in

homologous regions in both fore- and hindlimbs of mouse or

gecko (Fig. 4a), whereas similar expression patterns in all three

species could be seen around the basal region of the hindlimb

(Fig. 4a) and other areas such as the somite and muscle

precursors migrating into the limb bud31 (among three species,

Supplementary Fig. 6e). The positional changes of gene

expression in chicken forelimbs (wings) indicate that this gene

has obtained a new functional role in avian development.

Closer investigation of Sim1 expression on sections suggested

that it is expressed in the posterior margins of the distal stylopod

to the autopod, and the posterior margins of digit 1, especially in

limb mesenchyme beneath the epidermis (HH35, Fig. 4b). These

Sim1 expression domains encompass the region where flight

feathers (remex-type) develop, indicating a potential relationship

between Sim1 expression and flight feather development. To

further explore this hypothesis, we compared the expression

pattern of Sim1 with two general marker genes for feather buds,

Shh and Bmp7 (refs 32,33). At HH35, Shh and Bmp7 were

expressed along with the Sim1 expression domain at the posterior

margin of the wing (Fig. 4c–e). Moreover, in transverse sections

at the zeugopod level in HH36 embryo, Sim1 is exclusively

expressed at the ventral side of the feather bud (Fig. 4f,g) of the

remex-type feather (white arrowhead in Fig. 4g–i), while Shh

(only epidermis) and Bmp7 (both mesenchyme and epidermis)

are expressed at the apexes not only of remex-type feather buds

but also other types (Fig. 4h,i). In addition, Sim1 expression was

initiated at a stage between HH30 and HH31, the same time when

spot-like expression of Bmp7 was first observed (Fig. 4j). These

results show that Sim1 expression in the wing corresponds

spatially and temporally with remex-type feather formation. To

further assess the relationship between Sim1 expression and flight

feather formation, we utilized two chicken breeds, Cochin bantam

and Brahmas bantam. These breeds have feet that develop

bilateral feathers, including asymmetric flight feather type, in

posteriorly-biased mannaer (Fig. 4k and Supplementary Fig. 8a)

as seen in feathered-feet phenotypes in other chicken breeds and

Cellular nitrogen compound biosynthesis

Regulation of transcription, DNA−templated

Figure 3 | Potential role of ASHCE-associated genes in avian development. (a) Enriched GO terms in the top 500 ASHCE-associated genes. The P-values

of enrichment were calculated using a chi-squared test, and FDRs were computed to adjust for multiple testing. Since the list of enriched GOs was long,

the figure was generated by the visualization tool REVIGO which clustered the GOs based on semantic similarity. The development-related GOs are

highlighted with bold fonts. (b) Stage-specific genes within the top 500 ASHCE-associated genes and those of genomic background (all genes) are

shown for each developmental stage. Note that HH28 and HH38 stages show statistically significant over-representation of stage-specific, top 500

ASHCE-associated genes relative to genomic background. ‘expected’, expected numbers of stage-specific genes among randomly picked-up 500 genes.

*Po0.05 using Fisher’s exact test; **Po0.01. On the left is the hourglass-like development model.

pigeons34. Interestingly, in both breeds we examined, Sim1 shows

clear expression in the posterior margin of the autopod in the

hindlimb as seen in the forelimb (Fig. 4l and Supplementary

Fig. 8b). We believe the above data strongly suggests that Sim1

plays a role in flight feather formation.

An ASHCE enhancer for expressing Sim1 in the wing.

To elucidate whether the Sim1-associated ASHCE serves as a

cis-regulatory element responsible for avian-specific expression,

we conducted reporter assays using two different methods for one

of the Sim1-associated ASHCEs, that is 284 bp long and is located

at the eighth intron of Sim1 (Fig. 5a). This ASHCE is one of

the top 100 significantly conserved ASHCEs. We first used

electroporation to test whether this ASHCE could modulate gene

expression in the chicken embryo. A 1 kb-fragment sequence

containing the ASHCE and flanking regions in both sides was

inserted it into a tol2-based reporter vector that contained a

thymidine kinase (TK) minimal promoter with an EGFP reporter

gene (pT2A-TK-Sim1 ASHCE 1 kb-EGFP). The reporter vector

was co-transfected into the prospective forelimb field at chicken

HH14 embryo by in ovo electroporation together with two

other vectors: pT2A-CAGGS-mOrange for ubiquitous expression

as a indicator of the transfection efficiency and pCAGGS-T2TP

to express transposase for inducing genomic integration

(Supplementary Fig. 9a). Six days after electroporation, the

reporter EGFP signal was detected in the endogenous expression

domain of Sim1 (Fig. 5b), which was further confirmed in a

transverse section (Fig. 5c). A considerable amount of samples

exhibited reporter gene expression inside/near the endogenous

expression domain of Sim1 (Supplementary Fig. 10). We also

assessed ASHCE activity using a second method, by carrying out

RCAN/RCAS retrovirous infection, in which horizontal spread

of infection should occur, and thus a broad transfer of vectors

would be expected. The reporter vector contains the same 1 kb

ASHCE-containing sequence as in the electroporation analysis

(Supplementary Fig. 9b). Injection of the retrovirus-infected

chicken fibroblasts into the prospective forelimb field at HH10

resulted in expression of the reporter gene in the posterior margin

of the wing bud, which was reminiscent of the endogenous

S

Figure 4 | Sim1 is specifically expressed in the avian forelimb and is associated with flight feather development. (a) Expression pattern of Sim1 in foreand

hindlimbs in chicken (HH32), gecko (23 dpo) and mouse (E13.5) embryos. Black arrowheads indicate specific expression in the posterior margin of the

forelimb in chicken. (b–e) Expression of Sim1 (b,c), Shh (d) and Bmp7 (e) on the longitudinal sections of the chicken forelimb at HH35. (c) is a higher

magnification image of boxed area in b. All photographs are oriented with distal to the right and posterior to the bottom. (f–i) Expression of Sim1 (f,g),

Shh (h) and Bmp7 (i) on the transverse sections in the zeugopod region of the chicken forelimb at HH36. (g) is a higher magnification image of boxed area

in f. White arrowheads indicate the flight feather buds. All photographs are oriented with dorsal to the right and posterior to the bottom. (j) Expression

pattern of Sim1 and Bmp7 at HH30 and HH31. Neither the Sim1 expression nor the spot-like expression of Bmp7 was observed at HH30, whereas both of

them were detected at HH31 (white bracket and arrowheads). Insets indicate the Sim1 expression from the posterior view. (k) Photos of the whole body

(top) and the feathered foot (bottom) of an adult Cochin bantam. D1-4 incicate digits 1–4, respectively. Digit 4 is not seen from this angle because of

heavily covering feathers. (l) Expression of Sim1 in the forelimb (top) and hindlimb (bottom) in the Cochin bantam embryo at HH34. Bracket indicates Sim1

expression in the hindlimb. Scale bars, 1mm (a,b,j,l); 500 mm (c–i).

expression of Sim1 (Fig. 5d). These data from two independent

analyses strongly suggest that this Sim1 ASHCE acts as an

enhancer in regulation of Sim1 expression during the

development.

To further confirm a regulatory role for the Sim1-associated

ASHCE, we examined its latent capacity as an enhancer in the

mouse embryo by generating transgenic mice. We prepared

four types of reporter constructs, all of which contained an

hsp68 minimal promoter and the LacZ reporter gene, as shown in

Supplementary Fig. 9c. The first reporter vector contains chicken

Sim1-associated ASHCE and its 2.5 kb flanking regions in both

sides (Sim1 ASHCE 5 kb-LacZ). The second vector (Sim1 ASHCE

1 kb-LacZ) contains the same sequence used for the reporter

assays in the chicken embryo with Sim1 ASHCE and its shorter

flanking sequences. The third vector (Sim1 ASHCE 284 b-LacZ)

only contains Sim1 ASHCE, while the fourth vector (ASHCE

negative) lacked the ASHCE completely, but contained its 2.5 kb

flanking regions. When it was introduced, the reporter expression

in the first vector could be observed in a posterior-restricted

region in mouse forelimb, which partially replicates Sim1

expression in the chicken wing (Fig. 5e). To exclude the

possibility of artificial reporter activity caused by endogenous

enhancers around the transgene-inserted site in the mouse

genome that can also trigger the expression in forelimb,

we modified the chicken BAC clone with Sim1 by inserting the

LacZ cassette into the first codon of Sim1 and generated

transgenic mice with this modified BAC clone (Supplementary

Fig. 9d). Similar reporter expression was detected in the posterior

forelimb of BAC transgenic mice, suggesting this expression

pattern should be initiated by the chicken element rather than the

position effect (Fig. 5f). The second reporter vector exhibits

similar expression to the first reporter (Fig. 5g). The third vector,

which only contained the Sim1 ASHCE, still could activate the

reporter gene in the same region (Fig. 5h), indicating that this

Figure 5 | A Sim1-associated ASHCE represents an enhancer activity. (a) Schematic representation of gene structure of Sim1, as well as base-wise

conservation scores for ASHCEs. The region harbouring the highest scoring ASHCE associated with Sim1 is zoomed in. (b) Whole-mount images of the

forelimb bud six days after electorporation. Ventral views of the right forelimb bud are shown (the original image was flip-flopped horizontally). Dotted box

indicates magnified area. The reporter EGFP signals were observed in the posterior edge (white arrowhead) inside broad mOrange signals co-transfected.

(c) Transverse section on the plane of dotted line in b. The signals were detected by immunostaining for EGFP and mOrange proteins. Expression of Sim1

mRNA on the adjacent section is also shown. Note that the reporter signal was restricted inside/around the endogenous expression domain of Sim1.

(d) Whole-mount images of a specimen 7 days after injection of virus-infected cells. The forelimbs on the top and bottom are the virus-infected and

uninfected (contralateral) ones, respectively. Dotted box indicates magnified area, clearly showing that the reporter EGFP signals were detected in the

posterior margin of the forelimb bud (white arrowheads). (e–i) Reporter expression pattern in transgenic mice. LacZ reporter activities of transgenic

embryos (E14.5) of Sim1 ASHCE 5 kb (e), the chicken BAC clone (CH261-127C13) (f), Sim1 ASHCE 1 kb (g), Sim1 ASHCE 284 b (h) and Sim1 DASHCE

(i) were shown. The ratio at the right bottom corner in each (e–i) indicates the number of the embryos with the LacZ signal in the posterior margin of the

forelimb bud (embryos stained ubiquitously or broadly were excluded), to the number of Tg-positive embryos. Black and white arrowheads indicate obvious

and no LacZ signal in the posterior margin of the forelimb, respectively. The reporter vectors used here are shown in Supplementary Fig. 9. Scale bars,

1mm (b,d–i); 100 mm (c).

ASHCE contains the full regulatory capacity and is sufficient for

induction of gene expression in this region. However, with the

ASHCE negative vector, reporter expression was barely

detectable (Fig. 5i). These results demonstrate that the 284 bp

ASHCE in the Sim1 locus is sufficient and essential for expressing

Sim1 in the posterior margin of the forelimb. More importantly,

our observation that reporter expression is detected in transgenic

mice in a manner similar to the endogenous expression of Sim1 in

chicken wing suggests that the transcriptional machinery essential

for activating the Sim1-associated ASHCE in the forelimb is

conserved among avian and non-avian amniotes, and further

implied that rewiring of Sim1 regulatory network could be

achieved by modification on its associated non-coding region.

Therefore, it is adequate to postulate that the acquisition of the

ASHCE in ancient birds after they diverged from other reptiles

should be responsible for the lineage-specific expression pattern

Figure 6 | Sim1 and flight feather evolution. (a) Evolution of flight feathers. Character optimization on a calibrated phylogeny indicates that flight

feathers (remiges and rectrices) evolved at the base of the Pennaraptora, a clade including oviraptorosaurs, dromaeosaurs, troodontids, and birds,

about 170 million years ago. The arrow around the Ornithuromopha branch indicates the estimated time when the Sim1 ASHCE became conserved

(144.0 Myr ago). This tree is modified from the Fig. 3 in Foth et al42. (b–d) The expression of Sim1 in the tail of chicken embryo at HH28 (b), HH32 (c) and

HH35 (d). (e–g) The expression of Sim1 in the tail of gecko embryo at 15 dpo (e), 19 dpo (f) and 23dpo (g). Black and white arrowheads indicate the

expression of Sim1 in the lateral side of the tail and the cloaca, respectively. Scale bars, 1 mm. Drawing of an eagle in a is reproduced from ref. 10 with

permission. All other drawings are original by the co-authors.

of Sim1 and the development of corresponding avian-specific

feature.

Sim1 and flight feather evolution. Flight feathers are one of the

most prominent evolutionary innovations in the avian lineage,

conferring not only the ability for flight, but also, in some species,

important roles in other biological functions, such as territorial

displays and courtship ritual5,35. Birds have two regions that have

flight feathers: along the posterior edges of the wings (remiges)

and in the tail (rectrices). Feathered dinosaur fossils36–39 have

provided significant new information on the evolutionary origin

of flight feathers. Several analyses of phylogenetic distribution of

various feather morphotypes indicate that flight feathers have

their origin at the base of the Pennaraptora clade, which includes

oviraptorosaurs, dromaeosaurs, troodontids and birds40–42,

and this evolutionary event appears to have occurred about 170

million years ago7 (Fig. 6a). Given this, we hypothesize that

similar genetic mechanisms exist behind the development of

flight feathers in wing and tail. If Sim1 expression is not only

involved in modern bird feather development, but also involved

in flight feather development in early evolution, we therefore

would expect its expression in regions of the tail flight feathers.

Consistent with this expectation, we found that Sim1 was

expressed in the both lateral sides of the tail and the region

around the cloaca at HH28 chicken embryo (Fig. 6b). At HH32,

the buds of flight feathers were observed along the expression of

Sim1 nearby the posterior tip of the tail (Fig. 6c), and its

expression was maintained till HH35 (Fig. 6d). In contrast,

although Sim1 expression could also be detected around the

cloaca of gecko embryo at 15 dpo, it was only restricted in the

region close to the hindlimb, that is, most of the tail region of

gecko including its posterior tip did not express Sim1 (Fig. 6e).

Further examination confirmed that the expression in the gecko

tail decreased at later stages (Fig. 6f,g). These results suggest that

Sim1 was also expressed in the avian-specific manner at the flight

feather-forming region in the tail as well as the wing.

Our molecular dating analysis based on local molecular clocks

within the Sim1 ASHCE alignments indicate that extremely high

selection acted on the ASHCE, starting B144.0±26.6 (s.e.)

million years ago (Fig. 6a and Supplementary Fig. 11a–c), a time

that is close to the period in which palaeontological data indicate

that the first ‘modern’ flight feathers appeared at the base of

the Ornithothoraces, a clade including Enantiornithines and

the Neornithes7,43. We also highlight that the development

of remiges and rectrices has been blocked or inhibited

in some modern bird species that lost the ability to fly,

such as penguins. Investigation of dN/dS ratio shows there

was a much higher Sim1 gene dN/dS ratio of the penguin

branch (dN/dS¼0.2588) than other avian species (average

dN/dS¼0.0456, P value¼1.77e_06, Wilcoxon rank-sum test).

This may indicate relaxed selection on this gene in penguin

lineage, which may be associated with its loss of flight feathers.

Discussion

It has been a challenge to understand the genetic mechanisms

involved in the regulation of the development of lineage-specific

traits, particularly for macroevolutionary processes that created a

whole class level of new animal group. Previous studies have

emphasized duplication and modification of protein-coding gene

as a major source of evolutionary novelty and their contribution

to the lineage-specific phenotypic evolution44,45. In addition,

non-coding sequences, including non-coding RNA and

cis-regulatory sequences, are also suggested to have a great

contribution in evolutional change and innovation of traits, but

there is little evidence of cis-regulatory elements involved in

creation of the class level animal traits. Our study indicates that

there are the class-specific regulatory elements that are highly

conserved in avian genomes, and further suggests that the

majority of genomic elements that are under strong lineagespecific

selective constraints in birds consist of non-coding

sequences. In comparison with mammals46, few novel codingregion–

based functional elements appear to have arisen in the

avian ancestor, suggesting that the development of many

avian-specific traits may be through transitions of gene

expression profiles by adapting new regulatory networks. Our

large-scale functional genomic experiment confirmed that genes

associated with ASCHEs are significantly enriched in various

development processes, and the ASHCEs may have contributed

regulatory functions that could rewire and co-opt the expression

patterns of their associated genes. Our study thus provides a

dataset of functional candidate regions that would be worth

further examination.

We took the identified ASHCE-associated genes and carried

out in situ analysis of gene expression across species, and

provided a potential foundation for inferring the functional

regulation of key genes during the development of vertebrate

anatomical structures. In particular, our experiments offer

evidence for a specific role of Sim1 in flight feather development

and the essential switch on and off regulatory role of its associated

ASHCE on its avian-unique expression pattern. The association

of Sim1 expression with remiges and rectrices was accordant with

predictions from paleontology data, that these two types of flight

feathers evolved simultaneously. This suggests that they might be

mediated by a single genetic cascade. The strong sequence

conservation of this ASHCE across all bird lineages suggests an

adaptive episode in the common ancestor of birds by the

formation of this element. We suggest that this evolutionary

conservation pattern started with the appearance of the ‘modern’

flight feathers at Ornithothoraces in the earliest Cretaceous.

‘Modern’ flight feathers differ from early flight feathers at several

salient features, and have been suggested to enhance the flight

capability of modern birds43,47. The high-selection constraint on

ASHCEs might be the consequence of the adaptive transition on

flight feather evolution.

More broadly, our study demonstrates a framework for future

study to identify genomic modifications responsible for various

levels of lineage-specific phenome innovations by integrating

analytical tools from genomics, developmental biology, and

paleontology. Given our experiments here have only focused on

development of a particular organ, the limb, we postulate that

there are more functionally relevant ASHCEs that coordinate the

regulation of additional avian class-specific features, some of

which might have been shared with their ancestors among

theropod dinosaurs and served as genomic mechanisms for

macroevolution.

Methods

Genomic data. To identify the ASHCEs, we used the 48 avian genome dataset in

the avian phylogenomic project10 and 9 outgroups: three non-avian reptile

genomes –Alligator mississippi, Chelonia mydas and Anolis carolinensis; and 6 other

representative vertebrates (according to the 7-way alignment in UCSC)—Homo

sapiens, Mus musculus, Rattus norvegicus, Monodelphis domestica, Xenopus

tropicalis and Danio rerio. For gene family analysis, we chose 22 birds with the

highest quality assemblies in the avian phylogenomic project10, 5 non-avian

reptiles, 24 mammals and 11 fishes from UCSC48, Ensembl and other sources

(Supplementary Table 1). To identify the mammal-specific highly conserved

elements, we chose 20 mammalian genomes and 8 other vertebrate genomes as

outgroups (Supplementary Table 1).

Gene family sizes and lineage-specific genes. The protein sequences of four

groups (birds, non-avian reptiles, mammals and fishes) were used to run all

versus all BLAST alignment and build gene families with the tool hcluster_sg in

TreeFam49. To compare the gene family sizes across groups, we calculated the

average family sizes for the gene families present in at least two groups (Fig. 1a).

Identification of HCEs. To identify the conserved elements, we initially generated

the pairwise sequence alignments across all avian genomes by LASTZ50 and

chainNet51 using chicken genome as the reference. We then used MULTIZ52 to

combine the pairwise alignments into multiple sequence alignments. The final

alignment contains approximately 400Mb of each avian genome (Supplementary

Table 2). In addition, we also generated the chickenþthree-reptiles four-way

alignments for three non-avian reptile species against chicken, and downloaded the

seven-way whole-genome alignment (chicken as the reference) from the UCSC

FTP database48 for six other vertebrate species. All these alignments were also

combined to form a 57-way alignment, which was used for phyloP analysis later.

Firstly, we ran phyloFit in the PHAST package53 with the topology from avian

phylogenomic project11, to estimate the neutral (‘nonconserved’) model based on

fourfold degenerate sites in the 48 birds alignments. With the nonconserved model

as the input, we ran phastCons8 to estimate conserved models with its intrinsic

function, and predicted the HCEs (‘--most-conserved’ option) in birds and

generated base-wise conservation scores (‘--score’ option). Next we identified two

types of avian-specific HCEs (ASHCEs): (1) the HCEs that have no outgroup

sequence aligned (Type I ASHCEs); (2) HCEs that have orthologous sequences in

one or more outgroups are only conserved in birds according to the phyloP tests in

PHAST package (Type II ASHCEs)53 (Supplementary Table 3). To filter out the

non-avian-specific HCEs in Type II ASHCEs, we kept the candidates of Type II

ASHCEs with phyloP P valueo0.01 (FDR corrected) in all three separate sets of

phyloP tests using three different sets of outgroup: (1) alligator only; (2) three

non-avian reptiles; (3) three non-avian reptiles and six other vertebrate species.

Because a considerable number of these elements were short, to have a higher

quality set of ASHCEs for downstream analyses, we only used the ASHCEs of

Z20 bp in subsequent analyses. To do the comparision, we also used a similar

method to identify the mammal-specific highly conserved elements

(Supplementary Table 4).

To estimate the substitution rates of different branches in the ASHCE loci,

we ran phyloFit53 on alignments of the ASHCE loci with at least one outgroup with

a fixed topology (the published TENT tree11) (Supplementary Table 7). The

divergence times were obtained from previous studies11,22.

To investigate the SNP density in ASHCEs, all HCEs, coding region and

whole genome, we took advantage of the published chicken SNP dataset13

(Supplementary Table 8).

Functional analyses of conserved elements. We used the chicken genome

protein-coding gene annotation information in Ensembl to classifiy the HCEs into

five non-overlapping groups: coding, 50 10 kb region (relative to the translation

start site), 30 10 kb region (relative to the translation stop site), intronic, and

intergenic. We set a priority order for the five annotation groups as follows:

coding450/30 10 kb4intronic4intergenic (Supplementary Table 5).

To annotate transcription factor binding sites (TFBSs), we used the JASPAR

CORE vertebrates matrices54 and ran TESS55 (‘-mlo 10 -mxd 5’) to predict the

putative TFBSs on both strands of chicken genome, and identified the TFBSs

located in ASHCEs (Supplementary Table 9). TFBSs predicted by TESS were

merged with the motifs predicted with ChIP-seq data (see the ChIP-seq section

below) for over-representation analysis.

To investigate expression of ASHCEs, we compared the positions of ASHCEs

and assembled transcripts from the chicken RNA-seq data sets22,56. To investigate

potentially functional RNA structures of ASHCEs, we extracted the multiple

alignments of each HCE to run Evofold v1.0 (ref. 57) to identify functional RNA

structures (Supplementary Table 10). We compared these RNA structures to the

chicken miRNAs annotated in Ensembl (Supplementary Table 11).

To investigate whether the ASHCEs harbour some lncRNAs, we made use of

the 6452 annotated lncRNAs10. We also performed lncRNA annotation with other

RNA-seq data sets22 using the annotation pipeline described in ref. 10. In total,

we obtained the lncRNA collection of 26,749 lncRNA genes. We identified 25

avian-specific lncRNAs overlapping with the ASHCEs with a coverage ratio of

40.5. Based on avian-specific lncRNAs, we compared the expression levels of

chicken phylotypic period (HH16 (ref. 18)) and other developmental stages

(Supplementary Fig. 1).

ChIP-seq analyses of ASHCEs. We performed ChIP-seq for three known

enhancer-associated histone modifications: H3K4me1, H3K27ac and H3K27me3.

We collected samples from developing chicken embryos at stages HH16, HH21

and HH32 respectively, and samples from developing limbs at stages HH21 and

HH32 respectively. ChIP experiments were performed basically according to the

protocol recommended by Cosmo Bio with a slight modification. Modified points

are as follows. Embryonic samples were dissected and dispersed by 0.05% trypsin

(Gibco, 25300054) for 5min at 37 _C. After adding an equal amount of FBS to stop

the enzyme reaction, the cells were filtered using a cell strainer (BD Falcon,

352360). At least 5_106 cells were used for the subsequent process. The cell lysates

were sonicated 20 times (pulsed for 30 s with 30 s interval) using a Bioruptor

(Cosmo Bio, UCD-300) at high power setting. Alternatively, we sonicated the

lysates 17 times (pulsed for 15 s with 60 s interval) used a Vibra-Cell (Sonics and

Materials, VCX130PB) at 20% amplification setting. The samples were divided into

four aliquot and added 10 mg of antibodies (Normal rabbit IgG, Santa Cruz,

sc-2027; Anti-Histone H3 mono-methyl lysine 4, abcam, ab8895; Anti-Histone H3

acetylated lysine 27, Active Motif, 39113; anti-Histone H3 tri-methyl lysine 27,

Millipore, 07-449). Salmon sperm DNA, which is generally used for blocking, was

not applied for all steps.

ChIP DNA samples (two biological replicates for each condition) and input

samples were sequenced by Illumina HiSeq2000. The sequencing reads of each

sample were aligned to the chicken genome by BWA58. After removing PCR

duplicates by samtools59 and removing singletons (defined as reads that did not

have any other reads mapped within 100 bases of either side), we chose uniquely

mapped reads to assess the signal-to-noise ratios for each sample using the SPP

package (R statistical software package)60 (Supplementary Table 12).

The input samples of the same condition were merged, and ChIP-seq

peaks for each sample were identified by the MACS2 with broad peaks mode

(P valueo0.05)61 (Supplementary Table 13). Furthermore, we calculated

the Pearson correlation coefficients between biological replicates (Supplementary

Table 14). To obtain the final peak set for each condition, we counted the

aligned reads in the peak regions from each of the two replicate samples,

and applied quantile normalization on the aligned reads to comparing these

values across samples62. We only kept reproducible intersected peaks that had an

average coverage of Z1 in both replicates for each condition (Supplementary

Table 15).

To investigate enrichment of enhancer-related histone marks in ASHCEs,

we merged the peaks of a same histone mark from different conditions into a

non-redundant union set, and compared the genomic regions of histone marks and

ASHCEs using GAT63 (number of simulations is 100,000, the same below;

Supplementary Table 16). We also compared the genomic regions of histone marks

and ASHCEs by GAT63 to see if there is any significant over-representation pattern

in the five annotation groups (exonic, 50 10 kb region (relative to the transcription

start site), 30 10 kb region (relative to the transcription stop site), intronic and

intergenic, Supplementary Table 17).

To discover motifs (putative TFBSs) with ChIP-seq data, we pooled all

ChIP-seq peaks from different samples together to identify significantly enriched

motifs using findMotifsGenome.pl in HOMER64. We obtained enriched known

motifs with a q value smaller than 0.05 and identified de novo motifs by

default parameters. Using these predicted motifs from the ChIP-seq data

as input, we further identified the motif sites in the whole genome with

scanMotifGenomeWide.pl in HOMER64. Finally, we merged the TFBSs predicted

by TESS and those by HOMER into a union set, and identified the TFBSs that are

over-represented in ASHCEs relative to whole-genome background by GAT

(Supplementary Table 9).

We generated a chromatin-state map for each developmental stage by

integrating three types of histone makrs using ChromHMM19. To determine the

suitable number of states in our data, we tested the number of states from 3 to 10

and found that the 4-states results were better than any other when considering the

state transition parameters (Supplementary Fig. 2). Based on the co-occurance

patterns (Supplementary Fig. 2) and previous literature19, we defined the four states

as ‘strong enhancer’, ‘weak enhancer’, ‘low signal’, and ‘poised enhancer’. The

statistics of chromatin-state maps are provided in Supplementary Table 18.

Over-representation tests for each chromatin state in ASHCEs using GAT revealed

that ‘weak’ and ‘strong’ enhancers were over-represented in all samples

(Supplementary Table 19). We identified the regions with differential chromatin

states between two different samples, and found that the differential regions were

over-represented in ASHCEs for all comparisons (Supplementary Table 21).

Because of the relatively poor accuracy of the chromHMM state maps with only

three marks, we also used diffReps65 to identify the differential histone

modification sites between different conditions for each mark. We tested whether

differential histone modification sites were over-represented in the ASHCEs using

GAT63 (Supplementary Table 20). Furthermore, we identified the sites with

significantly upregulated histone modification in limb samples relative to whole

embryo samples (defined as limb-specific differential sites), and then tested

whether these sites were over-represented in the ASHCEs by GAT63

(Supplementary Table 22). We also indentified the over-represented TFBSs in

limb-specific differential sites overlapping ASHCEs (Supplementary Table 23).

ASHCE-associated genes. For each HCE, we considered the nearest

protein-coding gene as its associated gene, and only considered the genes within

50/30 10 kb range of the HCEs.

To investigate the potential functions of the highest scoring genes related to

ASHCE, we first sorted the ASHCE-associated genes by the highest ASHCE

phastCons log-odd score in each gene. Subsequently we compiled three kinds of

top gene lists for further analyses: top 500, top 200 and top 100. Based on the

positions of HCEs relative to the genes, we defined 4 groups further: 1) ‘within

10 kb’ (including intron/exon/50 10 kb/30 10 kb); 2) ‘50 10 kb’ (located in 50 10 kb

upstream); 3) ‘30 10 kb’ (located in 30 10 kb downstream); 4) ‘intron’.

We performed GO enrichment analysis (w2-tests) for the three top gene lists

respectively, using the Ensembl chicken GO annotation66 (Supplementary

Tables 24–27).

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NATURE COMMUNICATIONS | 8:14229 | DOI: 10.1038/ncomms14229 |www.nature.com/naturecommunications 11

We also made use of one-ratio dN/dS estimates of the genes from the avian

comparative genomics paper10.We compared the one-ratio dN/dS values of the top

ASHCE-associated genes with that of other genes using Wilcoxon rank-sum test

(Supplementary Table 28).

Differentially expressed genes (DEGs). We used published chicken RNA-seq

data22 to identify the differentially expressed genes using DEseq v1.14.0 (ref. 67),

edgeR v2.4.6 (ref. 68) and baySeq v1.8.3 (ref. 69). The cutoff P value of 0.01

(FDR adjusted) was used for each method to obtain the initial list of differentially

expressed genes (DEGs). The intersection set of the results of the three methods

were used for further analyses. For chicken, we compared the expression levels of

chicken phylotypic period (HH16) and 7 other embryonic developmental stages

(P: Primitive Streak embryos, HH6, HH11, HH14, HH19, HH28 and HH38)

(Supplementary Table 29). We applied the same pipeline to identify the

differentially expressed lncRNAs during chicken developmental stages

(Supplementary Table 30). To identify the stage-specific genes expressed in

a specific chicken embryonic stage, we used a measure tau70 (Supplementary

Table 31).

To compare the expression levels of chicken and other non-avian outgroups, we

performed similar analyses to identify the differentially expressed genes using the

RNA-seq data of the soft-shell turtle22. For turtle, we compared the expression

levels of turtle phylotypic period (Tokita-Kuratani stage 11, TK11 for short) and

two late developmental stages (TK15 and TK23, corresponding to HH28 and

HH38 in chicken)22 (Supplementary Table 32). We were interested in the genes

differentially expressed in chicken late stages (HH28 and HH38) relative to the

phylotypic period, but not differentially expressed in corresponding turtle stages

(TK15 and TK23). To reduce false positives, we required45-fold changes for

chicken DEGs and otwofold changes in turtle non-DEGs (Supplementary

Tables 33 and 34). To investigate selective constraint on DEGs, we ran

KaKs_calculator71 on the chicken-turtle 1:1 orthologs from Ensembl66 to

estimate the dN/dS ratios.

Animals. Fertilized chicken eggs (Gallus gallus, White Leghorn) were purchased

from local suppliers and incubated at 38 _C. Embryos were staged according to

Hamburger and Hamilton (1951)18. Fertilized eggs of two feathered-feet chicken

strains (Cochin bantam and Brahmas bantam) were provided by the National

BioResource Project (NBRP) Chicken/Quail of the MEXT, Japan. Adult individuals

of a male Cochin bantam and a female Brahmas bantam were used for

photographs. Foot feathers were obtained from adult male individuals of both

strains. Mouse (Mus musculus) embryos were collected from pregnant ddY mice

that were obtained from a local supplier. Mouse transgenic assays including

pronuclear microinjection and recipient mouse husbandry were conducted in

National Institute of Genetics, Japan. Gecko (Paroedura pictus) embryos were

obtained from adult individuals that were kept in KT’s laboratory and were staged

according to Noro et al.72 (2009). All animal experiments were properly conducted

in accordance with the guidelines approved by Tohoku University (2014LsLMO-

018, 2016LsLMO-010) and National Institute of Genetics (28-7), Japan.

In situ hybridization assays for ASHCEs-associated genes. We selected 100

genes for in situ hybridization from the top 500 ‘within10kb’ genes. As some genes

could be poorly annotated, we did not consider the genes with incomplete gene

models (no start/stop codons) or containing frameshifts. With regards to all genes

that we used for in situ comparative embryonic expression screening, partial

clones as riboprobes for in situ hybridization (except for chicken Shh and Bmp7,

which were kindly gifts from Dr. C Tabin from Harvard Medical School, and

Dr. T Nohno from Kawasaki Medical School, respectively) were newly obtained by

reverse transcription–PCR and sequenced. Primers used for cloning are listed in

Supplementary Table 35. cDNA pools for reverse transcription–PCR were derived

from embryos at HH20 or HH27 for chickens, at E10.0 for mice and at 10 dpo for

geckos. Templates with Sp6 and T7 promoters for riboprobe synthesis were

generated by PCR. All templates were transcribed with an appropriate RNA

polymerase. For whole-mount in situ hybridization, embryos were fixed in 4%

paraformaldehyde at 4 _C overnight, washed with PBT (0.1% tween20 in PBS),

dehydrated gradually with a methanol/PBT series, incubated in 5% H2O2 for 1 h,

then stored in methanol at _20 _C. After gradual rehydration, embryos were

digested with proteinase K (Invitrogen, 10 mgml_1 for 10 min), washed in PBT,

fixed in 4% paraformaldehyde containing 0.2% glutaraldehyde, then washed in

PBT. Embryos were prehybridized at 70 _C for at least 1 h in hybridization buffer

(50% formamide, 5_SSC (pH 5.0), 50 mgml_1 E. coli tRNA, 50 mgml_1 heparin,

1% SDS) before hybridization with a DIG-labelled riboprobe (1 mgml_1 in

hybridization buffer) at 70 _C overnight. Embryos were washed in solution 1

(50% formamide, 5_SSC (pH 5.0), 1% SDD) at 70 _C and in solution 3 [50%

formamide, 2_SSC (pH 5.0)] at 65 _C. After washes in TBST (100mM Tris-HCl

(pH 7.5), 150mM NaCl, 0.1% Tween 20), embryos were incubated in blocking

buffer (1.5% blocking reagent, Roche), then incubated in blocking buffer

containing anti-DIG antibody (1:2,500, Roche) at 4 _C overnight. Embryos were

washed in TBST, followed by incubation in NTMT buffer (100mM NaCl, 100mM

Tris-HCl (pH 9.5), 50mM MgCl2, 0.1% Tween 20) before staining reaction with

NBT/BCIP. In expression screenings of chicken and mouse embryos

(Supplementary Figs. 4,5), we used around three (at least two) individuals for each

gene at each developmental stage. Then, we confirmed that the candidate genes

showed almost consistent expression pattern in all specimens we analysed.

Regarding the expression analysis in gecko (Supplementary Fig. 6), we used one

embryo for each gene and each developmental stage because of a limited number of

the fertilized eggs available for this animal. For section in situ hybridization,

embryos fixed in 4% paraformaldehyde at 4 _C overnight were embedded in OCT

compound (Sakura Finetek), then sectioned with cryostat at 10-mm thick on

Platinum coated slide grasses (Matsunami). Sections were washed in PBT,

incubated in 1 mgml_1 proteinase K at 37 _C for 7min, then washed in PBT before

fixation with 4% paraformaldehyde for 20 min. After washes in PBT, hybridization

was carried out in hybridization buffer containing a DIG-labelled riboprobe

(1 mgml_1) at 70_C overnight. Sections were washed in solutions 1 and 3 at 65 _C

and then in TBST. After incubation in blocking buffer (0.5% blocking reageant),

sections were incubated in blocking buffer containing anti-DIG antibody (1:2,500)

at 4 _C overnight. After washes in TBST, sections were incubated in NTMT buffer

containing 2mM levamisole, and finally colour reaction was carried out in NTMT

buffer containing NBT/BCIP and 2mM levamisole.

Cloning of Sim1 ASHCE and vector construction. Approximately 5 kb DNA

fragment, including the Sim1 ASHCE 284 b, was retrieved from the chicken BAC

clone (CH261-127C13), which contains the Sim1 locus (see below for the detailed

retrieving method). The other short fragments were cloned by PCR in which the

retrieved DNA fragment or male chicken genome (Zyagen, GC-120M) was used

as a PCR template. For reporter assay, each DNA fragment was inserted into

pT2A-TK-EGFP, RCANBP(A) or hsp68-LacZ reporter vector (HSF51).

Modification of the BAC DNA to insert a LacZ reporter cassette into the first ATG

of the Sim1 CDS was performed as follows73. The pKD46 plasmid was

electroporated into DH10B host E. coli carrying the BAC DNA to produce the

arabinose-inducible l red recombinase for homologous recombination. After

selection of the cells possessing the pKD46, B500 ng of a DNA fragment of the

LacZ and Kanamycin resistance cassette flanked with homology arms (synthesized

by PCR) was electroporated into the host E. coli. Colony PCR was performed to

select a specific recombinant of the BAC DNA. Then, the pCP20 plasmid carrying

thermally inducible flp gene was electroporated into the host E. coli to remove

FRT-flanked kanamycin gene. Removal of Kanamycin was confirmed by colony

PCR. To retrieve the approximately 5 kb DNA fragment (Sim1 ASHCE 5 kb) from

the BAC DNA, we partially applied this BAC modification method. Briefly,

PCR was carried out to generate B300-nucleotide terminal homology arms for the

5 kb DNA fragment. After inserting these homology arms into a retrieving plasmid

vector carrying a selection marker gene, we linearized this plasmid by digestion

with an appropriate restriction enzyme at the site between the two homology arms

and electroporated B500 ng of this product into the DH10B host E. coli possessing

both the BAC DNA and pKD46 plasmid. After overnight incubation, the positive

clone was selected by colony PCR. Primers used in these steps are listed in

Supplementary Table 36.

In ovo electroporation. Vector plasmids were purified using Qiagen maxiprep kits,

and the DNA pellets were resuspended with EB buffer (Qiagen). Each plasmid

cocktail was prepared at concentrations of 5–14 mg ml_1 in EB buffer, and then

coloured with fast green solution for easy visualization. The plasmid cocktail was

injected into the coelom in the presumptive right forelimb field at HH 13–14 by

using finely pulled grass capillary. Hockey stick-shaped platinum anode and

tungsten cathode were put lateral and medial to the right forelimb field,

respectively. Electroporation was conducted using CUY21 Vitro-EX or

CUY21 EDIT (BEX) under the following conditions: one driving pulse of 25 V,

0.03–0.05ms pulse length and 1 ms interval length, followed by three poration

pulses of 8–12 V, 10–25 ms pulse length and 200–475 ms interval length. Six days

after electroporation, the reporter signal was detected by fluorescence microscope.

For enhancement of the reporter signal, some samples were fixed and cryosectioned

to conduct immunostaining. The antibodies used are as follows: anti-GFP

monoclonal antibody (Nacalai tesque, 04404-84), 1:500 dilution; anti-DsRed

polyclonal antibody (Clontech, 632496), 1:500 dilution.

Retrovirus infection. Two retrovirus vector constructs (RCANBP(A)-Sim1

ASHCE 284 b-TK-EGFP and RCASBP(B)-H2bmCherry) were simultaneously

transfected to virus-free DF1 cells. After several times of passage, the infected cells

were collected and condensed by centrifuge. Subsequently, the condensed cells were

injected into the lateral plate mesoderm in the presumptive right forelimb field at

HH 10 using finely pulled grass capillary. Embryos were incubated for 7 days,

followed by the detection of fluorescent signals.

Transgenic mouse generation LacZ staining. Transgenic mice were generated by

pronuclear microinjection of a linearized reporter vector. For preparation of

reporter vectors, plasmids were digested with appropriate restriction enzymes.

Target fragments were cut out from a low melting agarose gel and digested with

GELase (Epicentre Technologies) at 43 _C overnight. DNA was purified with

phenol and chloroform extraction followed by precipitation with ethanol. Purified

DNA was dissolved in injection buffer (5mM Tris-HCl (pH 7.5), 0.1mM EDTA

ARTICLE NATURE COMMUNICATIONS | DOI: 10.1038/ncomms14229

12 NATURE COMMUNICATIONS | 8:14229 | DOI: 10.1038/ncomms14229 |www.nature.com/naturecommunications

(pH 8.0)). After filtration through 0.22 mm filter unit (Merck Millipore), DNA was

diluted in a concentration of 4–5 ng ml_1 and used in microinjection. For BAC

transgenesis, extracted BAC DNA was digested with PI-SceI (NEB), and the

digested fragments were cut out from a 0.8% agarose gel following electrophoresis.

After dialysis with a cellulose membrane, the purified BAC DNA (5–6 ng ml_1) was

microinjected. For LacZ staining, embryos were fixed at E14.5 in 2% paraformaldehyde

containing 0.2% glutaraldehyde and 0.2% Nonidet P-40 at 4 _C for

1–2 h. After washes with PBS several times, staining reaction was carried out in

PBS containing 0.5 mg ml_1 X-gal, 5mM potassium ferricyanide, 5mM potassium

ferrocyanide, 2mM MgCl2 and 0.2% Nonidet P-40 at 37 _C overnight74. In order to

identify transgenic animals, genome DNAs were extracted from the amnions to

carry out genotyping PCR using a set of primer pairs for LacZ. In the case of BAC

transgenesis, we used primer pairs for T7 and SP6 sites in the vector backbone in

addition to those for LacZ. Primers used for genotyping are listed in Supplementary

Table 36.

Dating analysis of the Sim1 ASHCE. Based on multiple sequence alignments of

the 284 bp ASHCE in Sim1 (including sequences from 48 birds, alligator and

turtle), we estimated the time point that this element became conserved in birds

(more details are provided in the legend of Supplementary Fig. 11), assuming

before that time point the element evolved at a neutral rate in birds. The divergence

times used for calibration were obtained from previous studies11,22.

dN/dS analysis of Sim1. To estimate the evolutionary rate of the gene Sim1,

we extracted the gene sequences of the 22 birds with the highest quality assemblies.

We used PAML75 to estimate the dN/dS ratio of each branch. To support the

penguin ancestral branch has significantly higher dN/dS relative to other birds,

we made use of the LRT test based on the two-ratio branch model (one dN/dS

for penguin ancestral branch, another dN/dS for other birds) and one-ratio model

(one dN/dS estimate for all birds).

Data availability. ChIP-seq data that support the findings of this study have

been deposited in the GEO of NCBI with the accession code GSE75480. More

processed data are provided in the Supplementary Data 1 in the Supplementary

Information.

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Acknowledgements

We thank Professor Jon Fjeldsa of the University of Copenhagen for valuable comments.

This project was supported by Strategic Priority Research Program of the Chinese

Academy of Sciences (XDB13000000) and Lundbeckfonden grant R190-2014-2827.

K.T. was supported by JSPS KAKENHI Grant (JP15H04374), grant from The Naito

Foundation, and Next Generation World-Leading Researchers from the Cabinet Office,

Government of Japan (LS007). R.S., S.E. and H.M. are JSPS Research Fellows (JSPS

KAKENHI Grant Numbers JP14J07050 (R.S.), JP15J06859 (S.E.), JP15J06385 (H.M.)).

C.L. was partially supported by Lundbeckfonden grant R52-5062 to M.T.P.G.). N.I. was

partially supported by Platform Project for Supporting in Drug Discovery and Life

Science Research Platform for Dynamic Approaches to Living System from the Ministry

of Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology (MEXT) and Japan Agency for

Medical Research and Development (AMED). Photographs of the adult Cochin bantam

and Brahmas bantam and their fertilized eggs were provided by the National BioResource

Project (NBRP) Chicken/Quail of the MEXT, Japan.

Author contributions

G.Z., K.T. and N.I. designed the study. C.L., Q.F., J.H., L.X., H.P. and Y.L. conducted the

computational analyses. R.S., S.H., S.E., M.K., T.S., H.M., N.K., K.K. and D.S. conducted

the wet-lab experiments and analysed the data. G.Z., K.T., N.I., X.X., R.S. and C.L. wrote

the manuscript. M.T.P.G., Q.Z. and T.S provided critical comments for improving the

manuscript.

Additional information

Supplementary Information accompanies this paper at http://www.nature.com/

naturecommunications

Competing financial interests: The authors declare no competing financial interests.

Reprints and permission information is available online at http://npg.nature.com/

reprintsandpermissions/

How to cite this article: Seki, R et al. Functional roles of Aves class-specific cis-regulatory

elements on macroevolution of bird-specific features. Nat. Commun. 8, 14229

doi: 10.1038/ncomms14229 (2017).

Publisher’s note: Springer Nature remains neutral with regard to jurisdictional claims in

published maps and institutional affiliations.

This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0

International License. The images or other third party material in this

article are included in the article’s Creative Commons license, unless indicated otherwise

in the credit line; if the material is not included under the Creative Commons license,

users will need to obtain permission from the license holder to reproduce the material.

To view a copy of this license, visit http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

r The Author(s) 2017

ARTICLE NATURE COMMUNICATIONS | DOI: 10.1038/ncomms14229

14 NATURE COMMUNICATIONS | 8:14229 | DOI: 10.1038/ncomms14229 |www.nature.com/naturecommunications

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BullPR

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@dshipp17 said:
@bullpr said:

@dshipp17: 10 months ago.

Page 6.

Post 276.

My first post to you in this thread.

Still waiting.

I saw it, but, it's almost as if posts were deleted and/or modified; but, it appears that I was also in a conversation about peer-reviewed studies with another poster, when you interjected yourself; I told that poster that there were peer-reviewed studies, in general; and, you wouldn't let the IF>5 go; so, apologies, you added this stipulation to another poster's request for general peer-reviewed studies; there are many peer-reviewed studies that cast a great deal of doubt on evolution; because they may not appear in IF>5 studies doesn't make them go away, it just shows that the studies are not being allowed into those types of journals; the studies are there to be seen, where they're supported by actual, physical evidence; thus, when someone says there's no evidence, that's a false or misleading claim; they just may not appear in a certain class of journals for reasons other than the application of science and the scientific method. If you modify this stipulation, we can pick it up; I'll search through those class of journals, but, I believe that the paper I last posted referenced a paper from one of those journals (r.g. cast doubt on the notion that birds evolved from dinosaurs).

Loading Video...

Tagged.

Come back.

Happy of the beginning (finally, 10 months later he recognized that IF>5 is part of my first post. That I quote several times in this thread so everybody can be sure that it was not modified later).

So I rush to finally see a ref from a journal with IF>5.

See a video.

Leave.

But nice try.

Tag me again and I will come back to check your reference. I will always come back and be more than happy to review a ref from a paper from a journal with IF>5 that show that birds didn't evolve from dinosaurs.

Looking forward hearing from you, dear and estimate creationist.

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SpareHeadOne

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@g-dude:

I only read the start of your post to me but I will explain myself anyway.

For Darwinists et al micro evolution is the same as macro evolution. I don't see any reason to try and change peoples definitions. I can communicate more effectively if I work in with their definitions. It is stupid to talk past one another.

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@blacklegraph:

No I'm not a philosophical naturalist but when it comes to science I am a methodological naturalist.

Even if I thought ID was dishonest about its motives that wouldn't change the evidence nor the scientific work they are doing and the things we are learning because of their teleological assumptions.

You can assume teleology and still do science. Just as you can assume materialism and still do science.

Some people can't seem to do both.

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@g-dude said:
Loading Video...

@willpayton: If you won't believe the Bible for God or Jesus sake, at least watch this for science then. Note it has been dramatized. I realize now that the video above was slightly lenient for creationism and biased against evolution, so here is a more purely scientific video explaining bacterial flagellum. I'll let you be the judge.

Loading Video...

I had time to come back to these videos today.

I have worked on Flagella. Even published on mutants FliA and FliC for example of P. aeruginosa. The video you have posted do not take into account more recent work. You seems more reasonable than @blacklegraph: or @dshipp17 so I hope you won't be upset by the abstract I'm posting below, from a paper explaining the evolution of the Flagella, from a few genes overtime. From PNAS, a strong peer-reviewed journal with IF>5.

I will post the full paper in my next comment.

Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2007 Apr 24; 104(17): 7116–7121.Published online 2007 Apr 16. doi: 10.1073/pnas.0700266104PMCID: PMC1852327Evolution

Stepwise formation of the bacterial flagellar system

Renyi Liu* and Howard Ochman*†‡

ABSTRACT

Elucidating the origins of complex biological structures has been one of the major challenges of evolutionary studies. The bacterial flagellum is a primary example of a complex apparatus whose origins and evolutionary history have proven difficult to reconstruct. The gene clusters encoding the components of the flagellum can include >50 genes, but these clusters vary greatly in their numbers and contents among bacterial phyla. To investigate how this diversity arose, we identified all homologs of all flagellar proteins encoded in the complete genome sequences of 41 flagellated species from 11 bacterial phyla. Based on the phylogenetic occurrence and histories of each of these proteins, we could distinguish an ancient core set of 24 structural genes that were present in the common ancestor to all Bacteria. Within a genome, many of these core genes show sequence similarity only to other flagellar core genes, indicating that they were derived from one another, and the relationships among these genes suggest the probable order in which the structural components of the bacterial flagellum arose. These results show that core components of the bacterial flagellum originated through the successive duplication and modification of a few, or perhaps even a single, precursor gene.

Keywords:

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#713  Edited By BlackLegRaph

@bullpr said:
@blacklegraph said:

(...)

Your claims included that birds evolving from dinosaurs is a fact.

And my tag?

And my source with IF>5???

Let me show you what I'm talking about.

Below an abstract of an article supporting the evidence that birds evolve from dinosaurs. It is from a few weeks ago. The journal is peer-reviewed. The IF>5.

You even have some genetics data in the paper.

See simple.

Now review and write a rebuttal of this evidence, supported by papers with IF>5.

Or keep talking talking talking blablablablabala

The full paper will be in my next post if I can post something that long.

@willpayton: he is never going to stop talking without ever supporting his claims with scientific studies published in rigorous peer-reviewed papers with IF>5.

You should stop waste your time my friend.

Edit: I forgot to tag our second creationist @dshipp17, Sorry about that. I tagged him in the post with the full paper, but he should be able to read the abstract first to see if he/she is interested. A genetic basis for macro-evolution from dinosaurs to birds, found after analysis of data from high-throughput sequencing, I'm sure you will love it. Looking forward for your rebuttal. For a quick guideline on how to have a scientific one, not based on blablablabla, see posts below.

Nat Commun. 2017 Feb 6;8:14229. doi: 10.1038/ncomms14229.

Functional roles of Aves class-specific cis-regulatory elements on macroevolution of bird-specific features.

Seki R1,2, Li C3,4,5, Fang Q3,4, Hayashi S2,6, Egawa S2, Hu J3, Xu L3, Pan H3,4, Kondo M2, Sato T2, Matsubara H2, Kamiyama N2, Kitajima K2, Saito D2,7, Liu Y3, Gilbert MT5,8, Zhou Q9, Xu X10, Shiroishi T1, Irie N11, Tamura K2, Zhang G3,4,12.

Author information

1
Mammalian Genetics Laboratory, Genetic Strains Research Center, National Institute of Genetics, 1111 Yata, Mishima, Shizuoka 411-8540, Japan.
2
Department of Developmental Biology and Neurosciences, Graduate School of Life Sciences, Tohoku University, Aobayama 6-3, Aoba-ku, Sendai 980-8578, Japan.
3
State Key Laboratory of Genetic Resources and Evolution, Kunming Institute of Zoology, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Kunming 650223, China.
4
China National GeneBank, BGI-Shenzhen, Shenzhen 518083, China.
5
Centre for GeoGenetics, Natural History Museum of Denmark, University of Copenhagen, Copenhagen 1350, Denmark.
6
Department of Genetics, Cell Biology and Development, University of Minnesota, 321 Church Street SE, Minneapolis, Minnesota 55455, USA.
7
Frontier Research Institute for Interdisciplinary Sciences (FRIS), Tohoku University, Aobayama 6-3, Aoba-ku, Sendai 980-8578, Japan.
8
Norwegian University of Science and Technology, University Museum, N-7491 Trondheim, Norway.
9
Department of Integrative Biology University of California, Berkeley, California 94720, USA.
10
Key Laboratory of Vertebrate Evolution and Human Origins, Institute of Vertebrate Paleontology and Paleoanthropology, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Beijing 100044, China.
11
Department of Biological Sciences, Graduate School of Science, University of Tokyo, 7-3-1 Hongo, Bunkyo-ku, Tokyo 113-0033, Japan.
12
Centre for Social Evolution, Department of Biology, Universitetsparken 15, University of Copenhagen, Copenhagen 2100, Denmark.

Abstract

Unlike microevolutionary processes, little is known about the genetic basis of macroevolutionary processes. One of these magnificent examples is the transition from non-avian dinosaurs to birds that has created numerous evolutionary innovations such as self-powered flight and its associated wings with flight feathers. By analysing 48 bird genomes, we identified millions of avian-specific highly conserved elements (ASHCEs) that predominantly (>99%) reside in non-coding regions. Many ASHCEs show differential histone modifications that may participate in regulation of limb development. Comparative embryonic gene expression analyses across tetrapod species suggest ASHCE-associated genes have unique roles in developing avian limbs. In particular, we demonstrate how the ASHCE driven avian-specific expression of gene Sim1 driven by ASHCE may be associated with the evolution and development of flight feathers. Together, these findings demonstrate regulatory roles of ASHCEs in the creation of avian-specific traits, and further highlight the importance of cis-regulatory rewiring during macroevolutionary changes.

Again, you clearly do not know how to evaluate information.

First of all, a fact is something that is basically indisputable, something that is self-evident with almost no assumption or interpretation involved. It cannot be contrived. If you have to say "there is evidence supporting the claim that...", then you are not dealing with a fact but a suggestion that may be reasonable but may also be completely wrong. I guess it could be the case that you simply chose the wrong wording, but the way you've been carrying on indicates that you know what you are doing.

As for the article, several things are obvious: the blatant admittance that microevolutionary changes are well-substantiated and macroevolutionary ones are not.

Secondly, it is already taken for granted that macroevolutionary changes happen, so it is not a case of building up from evidence to conclusion, but having conclusion come first and trying to fit evidence into it.

Thirdly, there is a lot of redundancy: is it a surprise that avian specific conserved regions have importance to avians?

Lastly and most importantly, the article does not help your case because it gives no explanation on how Sim1 arose from the supposed reptile ancestor or how the proposed "rewiring" of the gene didn't kill off the creature but somehow created completely new information for a completely new trait. Noticing that a gene specific to avians is important in regulating limb formation says nothing about common ancestry, or how mutations were supposed to give rise to it.

At this point, I must make sure that you understand what is being asked. You claim dinosaurs evolved into birds, therefore, show the genetic change that occurred in dinosaurs that led to feather development (so point out the dinosaur sequence responsible for scales and show how a specific mutation or series of mutations induced in that sequence leads to the phenotypic development of feathers instead of scales.)

Just show point A (scale-regulating sequence/scales) going to point B (feather-regulating sequence/feathers). This is turning out to be something very difficult for a "fact."

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#714  Edited By BullPR

Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2007 Apr 24; 104(17): 7116–7121.

Published online 2007 Apr 16. doi: 10.1073/pnas.0700266104

PMCID: PMC1852327

Evolution

Stepwise formation of the bacterial flagellar system

Renyi Liu* and Howard Ochman*†‡

Go to:

ABSTRACT

Elucidating the origins of complex biological structures has been one of the major challenges of evolutionary studies. The bacterial flagellum is a primary example of a complex apparatus whose origins and evolutionary history have proven difficult to reconstruct. The gene clusters encoding the components of the flagellum can include >50 genes, but these clusters vary greatly in their numbers and contents among bacterial phyla. To investigate how this diversity arose, we identified all homologs of all flagellar proteins encoded in the complete genome sequences of 41 flagellated species from 11 bacterial phyla. Based on the phylogenetic occurrence and histories of each of these proteins, we could distinguish an ancient core set of 24 structural genes that were present in the common ancestor to all Bacteria. Within a genome, many of these core genes show sequence similarity only to other flagellar core genes, indicating that they were derived from one another, and the relationships among these genes suggest the probable order in which the structural components of the bacterial flagellum arose. These results show that core components of the bacterial flagellum originated through the successive duplication and modification of a few, or perhaps even a single, precursor gene.

Keywords: bacterial evolution, biological complexity, gene duplication

Bacterial flagella are complex and well honed organelles that provide swimming and swarming motilities and also play a central role in adhesion, biofilm formation, and host invasion (1). In the past several decades, extensive knowledge has accumulated about the structure, genetics, assembly, and regulation of flagella in widely diverse bacterial lineages (27). The typical bacterial flagellum consists of six components: a basal body (including MS ring, P ring, and L ring), a motor, a switch, a hook, a filament, and an export apparatus (2). In the best studied systems, those of Escherichia coli and Salmonella enterica sv. Typhimurium, >50 genes are involved in flagellar biosynthesis and function (3). Approximately half of these genes encode the structural components of the flagellum, and the rest are responsible for either the regulation of flagellar assembly or the detection and processing of environmental signals to which flagella respond.

Whereas E. coli and Salmonella have long served as the model organisms for studying flagellar assembly (2), there is extensive diversity among bacteria in the contents and organization of the gene complexes that specify flagella as well as structural variation in the flagellum itself (8, 9). For example, in Spirochaetes, flagella are located in the periplasm between the outer membrane sheath and cell cylinder (10); and, in accordance with their location, they have an enlarged C ring and rotor, and have a shape different from that seen in Salmonella (11). Furthermore, some bacteria, such as Vibrio parahaemolyticus, possess two flagellar systems (polar and lateral) that are encoded by distinct set of genes and use different motive forces (sodium and proton) but share a chemotaxis signal transduction system (12).

The bacterial flagellum has received attention as an exemplum of biological complexity; however, how this complexity and diversification have been achieved remains rather poorly understood. Although several scenarios have been posited to explain how this organelle might have been originated (13), the actual series of evolutionary events that have given rise to the flagellum, as might be inferred from the relationships of all genes that contribute to the formation and expression of this organelle across taxa, has never been accomplished.

Insights into the evolution of the bacterial flagellum have been gained from the homologies between flagellar proteins and those functioning in other systems (13). For example, the sequence similarity between flagellum-specific ATPase FliI and the β-subunit of ATP synthase led to the speculation that flagellum possibly evolved from this highly conserved, membrane-bound enzyme, whose subunits rotate during catalysis of ATP from ADP (14). Because the flagellar motor proteins MotA/B are homologous to the motor proteins in the Tol-pal and TonB systems (15), the flagellum was hypothesized to have originated as a simple proton-driven secretion system (16). Most significantly, there are well established sequence and structural homologies between bacterial flagella and the type III secretion system (TTSS) demonstrating that the two apparati derive from a common ancestor (17). Most evidence, including their much broader phylogenetic distribution, supports the view that the flagellum arose much earlier that the TTSS, which are largely limited to Proteobacteria (1820).

Here, we take advantage of complete genome sequence data to trace the history of each gene involved in the assembly and regulation of the bacterial flagellum. Our results show that flagellum originated very early, before the diversification of contemporary bacterial phyla, and evolved in a stepwise fashion through a series of gene duplication, loss and transfer events. In this article, we focus on the evolution of the core set of flagellar genes that is uniformly present in all flagellated bacteria. The later evolving and lineage-specific components of the flagellar gene complexes remain to be addressed.

Go to:

RESULTS

Defining the Core Set of Flagellar Genes.

By querying the genomes of flagellated bacteria for which complete genome sequences are available, we obtained the phylogenetic distribution of every gene known to be involved in the biosynthesis and regulation of flagella. To investigate the origin and evolution of the bacterial flagellar system, we then applied a phylogenetic profiling method (21) to assort genes into functional groups based on their co-occurrence and shared distributions across genomes. Genes with different functional roles have distinct phylogenetic distributions and profiles; however, most of genes whose protein products constitute the structural components of the flagellum are present in all bacterial phyla considered (Fig. 1). This distribution suggests this core set of structural genes originated before the divergence of the major bacterial lineages and includes 21 genes that specify proteins that form the filament (fliC, which is often present in multiple copies), the hook-filament junction (flgK and flgL), the hook (flgE, which is present as a pseudogene in Thermotoga maritima), the rod (flgB, flgC, flgG, and flgF, which is missing only from Listeria innocua), the MS ring (fliF), the C ring (fliG, fliM, and fliN), the motor (motA and motB), and the export apparatus (flhA, flhB, fliI, fliP, fliR, and fliQ, which lacks a homolog in Clostridium tetani). In addition, flgD, encoding the hook-capping protein, which is required for flagellar assembly but does not contribute to the final structure, has homologs in all flagellated bacteria and thus was considered as part of the core set.

Fig. 1.

Distribution of flagellar proteins (excluding chemotaxis proteins) among flagellated bacterial species. Those proteins encoded by the core genes are designated in bold. This figure is redrawn with permission from that appearing in the KEGG pathway database ...

Other flagellar structural genes that are broadly but not universally distributed across flagellated species include flgH, flgI, fliD, fliE, and fliH. The absence of certain of these genes from a genome is understandable once the characteristics of the particular bacteria are considered. For example, the L and P ring proteins FlgH and FlgI are not necessary in the Firmicutes because these bacteria lack the outer membrane in which these proteins are typically situated in Gram-negative bacteria. FlgH and FlgI are also not necessary in Spirochaetes, which have a periplasmic flagellum located inside of the outer membrane. The Firmicutes and Spirochaetes are viewed as two of the most basal bacterial lineages (22, 23), suggesting that flgH and flgI originated after the core set of structural proteins. In contrast, three other genes (fliD, fliE, and fliH) are present in all major groups but are missing sporadically from a few genomes, most noticeably in the Alphaproteobacteria. Because present-day distributions of these three genes are attributable to secondary loss, they too should be considered as part of the ancestral set of genes specifying the bacterial flagellum, bringing the total of core genes to 24.

Therefore, the task of elucidating the evolution of the flagellum rests on establishing how this set of 24 structural genes originated. The remaining flagellar genes, including those that play regulatory or auxiliary roles in flagellar assembly and function (such as the master regulators flhC and flhD, and the hook length control gene fliK), have highly variable distributions and are excluded from the core set, even though some of the genes are known to be essential for proper functioning of the flagellar system in a particular species. (The evolutionary histories of these regulatory genes, along with that of a second bacterial flagellar system remain to be described.)

Phylogenetic Analysis of Flagellar Core Genes.

To ascertain whether the 24 genes that form the flagellar core set have congruent evolutionary histories with one another, we compared the phylogenetic tree inferred for each core gene to that based on concatenated alignments of proteins encoded by 14 of the core genes. (These 14 genes were selected because they were present in all species included in this study and encoded the proteins having a high proportion of alignable positions.) For each of the 24 genes, all branches with >75% bootstrap values agreed with those in the concatenated tree, indicating that no alternative branching orders show strong support and that each of these genes has followed a common history in bacteria since they originated.

Congruence of Flagellar Genes with Organismal Phylogeny of Bacteria.

The distribution of the 24 core genes among divergent bacterial phyla is most consistent with an ancient origin, predating the shared ancestor of Bacteria. However, the distribution could have been achieved through later horizontal transfer. We tested these alternatives by comparing the phylogeny of the flagellar core proteins with the phylogeny of the corresponding bacterial phyla based on 25 universally distributed genes. The phylogenies are largely congruent on branches that have >75% bootstrap support; however, there are two inconsistencies between the core-gene and the organismal phylogenies; in the placement of both the alphaproteobacterial Zymomonas mobilis and a clade of three Betaproteobacteria within the Gammaproteobacteria (Fig. 2). Because individual flagellar genes within the core set show the same evolutionary history (see above), these incongruities have likely resulted from the transfer of the entire flagellar gene complexes between proteobacterial lineages after their separation from other major bacteria groups.

Fig. 2.

Congruence between species tree and flagellar protein tree. (A) Species tree based on concatenated protein alignment of 25 single-copy proteins. (B) Flagellar protein tree based on concatenated protein alignment of 14 flagellar core proteins. Bacterial ...

Core Flagellar Proteins Arose Through the Duplication and Diversification of a Single Precursor.

When each of the 24 core flagellar proteins of E. coli are compared (via BLAST) to all proteins encoded in the E. coli genome, their best and often only hits are to other core flagellar proteins. Pair-wise comparisons among these core proteins revealed that ten are homologous to other core proteins when applying an e-value cutoff of 10−4 (Fig. 3). This pattern indicates that the structural genes specifying the portion of flagellum residing outside of cytoplasmic membrane (i.e., the rod, hook, and filament) are paralogs and were derived from one another through duplications.

Fig. 3.

Network of relationships among flagellar core proteins. Above each link is the number of genomes for which homology between a particular protein pair was detected by pairwise comparison at a cutoff value of 10−4 or lower. Blue lines linking yellow-boxed ...

Aside from these matches to other core proteins, pairwise comparisons of these flagellar proteins to the >4,000 nonflagellar proteins encoded by the entire E. coli genome recovered cumulatively a total of only 24 hits that reached the same level of significance. Among these matches, half (including some with e-values as low as 3e−10 to the flagellar core proteins) are involved in other secretion systems, such as the P pilus and the Type V secretion system, which is consistent with the idea that the flagellum originated as a secretion system. An additional 10 of the 24 hits (with e-values ranging from 10−5 to 10−6) are membrane proteins, and the remaining two are prophage tail-fiber proteins. Thus, we conclude that despite their antiquity, the similarities among core proteins to one another are more common and, on average, stronger than to nonflagellar proteins.

Because the genes that constitute the core set are ancient and highly diverged, it is possible that some of the relationships among genes might not be recognized from analyses limited to the E. coli flagellar complex. We repeated this analysis and compared the core gene set of each other flagellated bacterium to all proteins encoded in the corresponding genomes and among themselves, and we obtained a similar result, i.e., the best (and often the only) hits of the flagellar core genes were to other flagellar core genes. However, by extending this analysis beyond E. coli, the similarity-relationships and links among several other core genes were resolved. For example, a highly significant match between fliM and fliN (that was not detected for E. coli homologs) was evident in 15 genomes from diverse bacterial subdivisions (Fig. 3). In addition, the interacting export components encoded by fliP, fliR, and fliQ are related based on their protein sequences within several taxa. And even among the 10 E. coli core genes that originally showed similarity to one another, there were several new interconnections (e.g., flgB to both flgE and flgG, and between flgL and flgK) revealed by performing the analysis on other genomes. Cumulatively, each of the 24 core genes shows significant similarly to one or more of the other core genes (Fig. 3), a pattern that would result from their successive origination from one another by independent gene duplications and/or gene fusions.

The similarity among the proximal rod protein FlgF, the distal rod protein FlgG, and the hook protein FlgE exemplifies the relationships among these flagellar proteins (Fig. 4). FlgF and FlgG are of similar size (251 aa vs. 260 aa in E. coli) and show 31% amino acid identity over their entire lengths. In contrast, the flgE gene is much longer and appears to have evolved from flgG through an intragenic duplication that added a 160-aa domain to the N terminus of its encoded protein. PSI-BLAST searches reveal two significant alignments between FlgE and FlgG in E. coli: one with 24% identity between whole length of FlgG and the C terminus of FlgE (156–401 aa), and the other with 29% identity between the N terminus of two proteins (≈160 aa). That flgE evolved by a duplication is also supported by the fact that there are two versions of flgE in the genus Bacillus: among sequenced genomes, four species (B. subtilis, B. clausii, B. licheniformis, and B. halodurans) contain a shorter version, which is similar in length to flgG, and three species (B. thuringiensis, B. cereus, and B. anthracis) have the longer version.

Fig. 4.

Protein sequence similarity among the proximal rod protein FlgF, the distal rod protein FlgG, and the hook protein FlgE in E. coli. Whereas FlgF and FlgG are homologous over their entire lengths, FlgE contains an intragenic duplication at its N terminus. ...

From the matrix of relationships and protein sequence alignments of the flagellar core genes of E. coli, it is also possible to infer the order in which many of these genes and their corresponding structures originated. The low levels of protein identity among these paralogs, paralogous pairs are between 18% and 32% identical, required that we apply a method that combines the output of series of multiple alignment programs to derive a consensus alignment. The alignments on the terminal regions of the proteins, especially at the C terminus, offer the highest confidence. An unrooted neighbor-joining tree and a maximum-likelihood tree [supporting information (SI) Fig. 5] show that the rod proteins originated with either FlgB or FlgC, which are both short proteins, and then generated FlgF and FlgG (and hook protein FlgE) through a series of duplication events. The evolutionary relationships of these flagellar genes parallel the locations of their encoded proteins in contemporary flagella. The proximal, then distal, rod proteins precede (both evolutionarily and physically) the hook proteins, which preceded the hook-filament junction and filament proteins.

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DISCUSSION

Comparisons of the complete genome sequences of flagellated bacteria revealed that the flagellum is based on an ancestral set of 24 core genes for which homologs are present in genomes of all bacterial phyla. The most striking finding from our analysis is that these core genes originated from one another through a series of duplications, an inference based on the fact that they still retain significant sequence homology. The individual core genes show phylogenetic histories congruent with one another, and this core flagellar phylogeny is largely consistent in its deepest branches with the phylogenetic relationships as currently resolved for Bacteria. Taken together, these results indicate that the core set of flagellar genes arose and was assembled from a single or few ancestral sequences, and that the individual genes diversified, before the shared ancestor of Bacteria.

Although sequence similarities among some of the rod and hook proteins were noted in early analyses (24), the degree of paralogy for the ancestral set of flagellar genes, and its implications for the origins of the bacterial flagellum, have gone unrecognized. From a phylogeny of these core proteins, it is possible to reconstruct the order in which they appeared, which in turn, can help elucidate the progression by which the flagellum was originally formed. Based on their relationships and on the physical locations of proteins forming the flagellum, the rod, hook, and filament proteins originated in an order that mirrors the “inside-out” flagellar assembly process (2, 3). The earliest proteins are proximate to the cytoplasmic membrane with later proteins situated distally, first spanning the outer membrane and then giving rise to structures (i.e., the hook, junction, filament, and capping proteins) that extend outside of the bacterial cell. Thus, the flagellum represents a case whereby its order of assembly recapitulates its evolutionary history.

The structural features of the flagellum, along with the evidence of homology between FliI and ATP synthase subunits and between MotA/B and the secretion proteins TolQ-TolR, suggests that it originated as a primitive secretion system (16), first involving ATPase and then adding the rod, hook, and filament components by gene duplication and diversification. Its original role as a secretion apparatus is also supported by the clear links between the flagellum and the TTSS, a protein delivery system whose genetic architecture is similar to and derived from a flagellar gene complex (17, 20).

Although some bacterial genomes contain recent paralogs of particular flagellar genes, most flagellar genes originated very early and are highly divergent, which occasionally hampers the recognition of orthologs, or the similarity between core proteins, in some of the genomes that we considered. Although additional flagellar proteins can be recognized by adopting more sensitive search programs (25), virtually all of the flagellar gene homologs that we identified were confirmed by examining their genomic context and enabling us to define the set of core genes that are ancestral to all bacterial lineages. Those few core genes that are absent from a few genomes (fliD, fliE, and fliH) are likely to represent cases of gene loss and it has been shown, at least for fliH, that this gene is not always essential for flagellar assembly (26).

To ascertain the ancestry of the flagellar core genes, we searched initially for homologs of each gene within the E. coli genome, which has the highest proportion of functionally annotated genes. The resulting network, involving only 10 of the 24 core genes, provided a very conservative view of the relationships and paralogy among the core genes but showed that flagellar genes were derived largely from other flagellar genes with apparently little input from other coding sequences. Extending these analyses to include other genomes uncovered additional links among flagellar proteins and revealed that the entire set of core genes could be formed through the duplication and divergence of previously existing flagellar genes. That the analysis of the E. coli did not resolve all of the links among core genes is not surprising given that these genes are ancient and have followed independent histories within bacterial lineages. It was originally hypothesized that biological pathways and structures might expand through the successive addition and modification of their preceding components (27). Although there is diminishing evidence that the recruitment of new enzymes into metabolic pathways occurs by this process (28), it is apparently the manner by which the bacterial flagellum arose.

The origins of complex organs and organelles, such as the bacterial flagellum and the metazoan eye, have often been subjects of conjecture and speculation because each such structure requires the interaction and integration of numerous components for its proper function, and intermediate forms are seldom operative or observed. However, the analysis of biological complexity has changed with the application both of genetic procedures that serve to identify the contribution of individual genes to a phenotype and of comparative sequence analyses that can elucidate the evolutionary and functional relationships among genes that occur in all life-forms. As with the evolution of other complex structures and processes (2932), we have shown the bacterial flagellum too originated from “so simple a beginning,” in this case, a single gene that underwent successive duplications and subsequent diversification during the early evolution of Bacteria.

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MATERIALS AND METHODS

Genome Sequences.

Protein and DNA sequences from 249 complete bacterial genomes were downloaded from the National Center for Biotechnology Information (NCBI) (ftp.ncbi.nih.gov/genomes/Bacteria) on December 28, 2005. E. coli flagellar genes were retrieved from the Kyoto Encyclopedia or Genes and Genomes (KEGG) database (www.genome.jp/kegg/pathway/eco/eco02040.html) and curated manually. In addition, the five flagellar genes that are absent from E. coli but present in Vibrio parahaemolyticus were retrieved from GenBank. Only flagellated bacterial species with published genome sequences were chosen for phylogenetic analysis. Species that possess flagellar gene homologs but are not known to produce operational flagella because of pseudogenes or missing components were excluded from the analysis because these flagellar systems are in derived or degenerated states. A given bacterial species was considered to be flagellated if listed as such in Bergey's Manual (33). Because most species within a genus have very similar flagellar systems, we selected only one genome from each genus for further analysis. This resulted in a total of 41 species representing 11 bacterial phyla/divisions (SI Table 1).

Phylogenetic Profiling.

E. coli flagellar proteins are used as queries to search annotated proteins from complete genomes with BLASTP. Reciprocal best hits recovered at a cutoff of 10−5 among proteins in the E. coli and the queried genome were considered to be orthologs. If no ortholog was recovered, we first used TBLASTN to query the complete genome to confirm that its absence was not attributable to annotation errors. As a secondary check, PSI-BLAST was also used to find potential homologs. Homologs recognized from either the TBLASTN or PSI-BLAST searches were then examined for gene context. In cases where genes were in a colinear region or had at least one of the same neighboring genes as in E. coli, we regarded the sequences as orthologous to the E. coli gene. If an ortholog was still not found, we considered that particular flagellar gene as absent from a genome. To search for any flagellar genes or proteins that might be highly diverged from their E. coli homologs and go undetected in previous searches, we repeated the entire analysis using the flagellar gene/proteins of Bacillus subtilis as queries. In cases where there were multiple copies of homologs of a particular gene, paralogy was established if they had the original E. coli query gene as their best hit when searching against all E. coli proteins. TTSS proteins, although homologous to flagellar proteins, are easily identified because they generally have lower similarity values and are not contained within the flagellar gene neighborhood.

To evaluate whether the identification and distribution of particular flagellar proteins might be confounded by enhanced rates of protein evolution, we computed the overall percent protein identity for each flagellar protein in E. coli to its ortholog in Salmonella enterica sv. Typhimurium. (Salmonella and E. coli are used because orthology is easily ascertained, and alignments cover the entire lengths of proteins.) Most pairs of orthologs were >70% identical, and those with lower values (i.e., fast evolving) were FliC (54%), FliD (51%), FliK (47%), FliS (62%), and FliT (35%). Despite their relatively fast rates of evolution, FliC and FliD orthologs were detected in the genomes of all major bacterial groups and were included in the universally distributed core set. Moreover, this analysis also showed that “noncore” proteins are, by and large, not fast evolving and that their orthologs will be detected when present in a genome.

Similarity Among Core Proteins.

To detect similarities among core proteins in each of 41 flagellated bacteria, each protein was compared with each of the other core proteins in the same genome by using the Bl2seq program (with default options) in the NCBI BLAST package, applying an e-value cutoff of 10−4.

Phylogenetic Analysis of Flagellar Proteins.

Protein sequence alignments were generated in Muscle (34) with option (-maxiters 100), and poorly conserved regions were trimmed by using Gblocks method (35) with parameters (−b4 = 2 −b5 = n). PHYML (36) was used to construct maximum likelihood-based phylogenetic trees with 100 bootstrap replicates (with options 1 i 1 100 JTT e 4 e BIONJ y y). When multiple proteins from each genome were used to build a phylogenetic tree, individual protein alignments were first concatenated to form a single large alignment before phylogenetic analysis. To assess the evolutionary histories of individual members of the core set of flagellar genes, we compared the branching order inferred for alignments of each protein to that inferred for a concatenation of 14 well aligned proteins present in all flagellar systems. To construct a multiple sequence alignment of the highly divergent paralogous core proteins in E. coli, we used the mcoffee option of the T-Coffee program (37) (http://igs-server.cnrs-mrs.fr/Tcoffee/tcoffee_cgi).

Reconstruction of the Bacterial Species Tree.

Based on the concatenated alignments of 31 single-copy genes (predominantly ribosomal proteins), Ciccarelli et al. (23) reconstructed the relationships for sequenced representatives of three domains of life. Of these 31 genes, 25 are present in all of the bacterial genomes that we considered, and we used the concatenated alignment of their encoded proteins to build the bacterial species tree.

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SUPPLEMENTARY MATERIAL

Supporting Information:

Click here to view.

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ACKNOWLEDGMENTS

We thank Nancy Moran for originally suggesting this project and for input on the manuscript; Eduardo Rocha, Vincent Daubin, and Emmanuelle Lerat for numerous helpful comments about the analyses; and Becky Nankivell for assistance in making figures. This work was supported by National Institutes of Health Grants GM56120 and GM74738 (to H.O.).

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ABBREVIATION

TTSS

type III secretion system.

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FOOTNOTES

The authors declare no conflict of interest.

This article is a PNAS direct submission.

This article contains supporting information online at www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/0700266104/DC1.

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REFERENCES

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16. Musgrave I. In: Why Intelligent Design Fails: A Scientific Critique of the New Creationism. Young M, Edis T, editors. New Brunswick, NJ: Rutgers Univ Press; 2004. pp. 72–84.

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23. Ciccarelli FD, Doerks T, von Mering C, Creevey CJ, Snel B, Bork P. Science. 2006;311:1283–1287.[PubMed]

24. Homma M, Derosier DJ, Macnab RM. J Mol Biol. 1990;213:819–832. [PubMed]

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BullPR

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@blacklegraph: Tagged. Come to see. Don't see any ref. About to Leave. But, just in case:

If you disagree with this paper, find a ref that support your claim from a journal with IF>5.

If you can't find any ref, the process is simple. Write an rebuttal to the journal.

I have done that. You can do it too.

If your arguments are convincing, you will be published.

If you don't have a ref to support your claim (IF>5) and if you don't write a scientific rebuttal to the editor, then we are back to you talking, talking, talking, blablablabla.

I look forward seeing your references (IF>5) or you keeping us up to date with your letter to the editor. Good luck if you are following the second track.

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@blacklegraph:

No I'm not a philosophical naturalist but when it comes to science I am a methodological naturalist.

Even if I thought ID was dishonest about its motives that wouldn't change the evidence nor the scientific work they are doing and the things we are learning because of their teleological assumptions.

You can assume teleology and still do science. Just as you can assume materialism and still do science.

Some people can't seem to do both.

I'd say that one cannot do science without methodological naturalism. The issue is that some equate philosophical naturalism with methodological naturalism, and as you clearly seem to know, those are not the same thing.

I was more interested in why you think ID is dishonest at all. They make their claims pretty clear, and just like any other group they are made up of different individuals with different motivations. Even then, those who use ID as a starting point to lead to Christian views are pretty open about it. I'd say it would only be dishonest if they said "I don't really want to talk about Christian views," but none of the major Theist ID-ers are dishonest about that. Those that are not theists clearly don't have that intention at all (they don't accept the Christian God) to begin with, so they can't be dishonest about it.

What I do think is dishonest is to try to generalize and paint them all with the same brush, which is the point of the whole accusation of being "secret creationism." Most of those same people would deny that their support for Neo-Darwinism is also meant to push philosophical naturalism which is just as dishonest. It's only the likes of Dawkins or Eugenie Scott that are honest about that (that Neo-Darwinism is in support of their naturalism).

Anyway, I agree that you can start off from any philosophical viewpoint and still do science. The problem is two-fold though: some viewpoints cripple science by limiting it to only one sort of explanation when there are alternatives we are aware of. Secondly, some confuse those starting viewpoints as being science itself (for example, the belief that there is no metaphysics becomes "science says there is no metaphysics).

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BlackLegRaph

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#717  Edited By BlackLegRaph

@bullpr said:

@blacklegraph: Tagged. Come to see. Don't see any ref. About to Leave. But, just in case:

If you disagree with this paper, find a ref that support your claim from a journal with IF>5.

If you can't find any ref, the process is simple. Write an rebuttal to the journal.

I have done that. You can do it too.

If your arguments are convincing, you will be published.

If you don't have a ref to support your claim (IF>5) and if you don't write a scientific rebuttal to the editor, then we are back to you talking, talking, talking, blablablabla.

I look forward seeing your references (IF>5) or you keeping us up to date with your letter to the editor. Good luck if you are following the second track.

Lol. So once again, you basically admit that you cannot evaluate data without appealing to some authority. I already answered the article you posted which clearly does not help your case. Pointing out that conserved sequences in avians are important to avians is obvious but does nothing to establish a common ancestry with dinosaurs.

Heck, it seems you missed the obvious that that article does not even mention any dinosaurs at all, and comes up with an ad hoc excuse (cis-regulatory rewiring) that it doesn't even address. If anything, you only highlight that you cannot read technical material, and that all feather related phenomena are still exclusive to avians.

As for the paper on Flagella, similar problems are evident. First of all, it is unverified as an explanatory story. There is no talk of actually experimentally reproducing the supposed steps that led to their conclusion. They also had the bad habit of treating assumptions and inferences as verified fact. Some examples include:

"Within a genome, many of these core genes show sequence similarity only to other flagellar core genes, indicating that they were derived from one another,"

That's clearly based on the flawed assumption that similarity dictates a common origin. One would have to first identify an original gene, duplicate it and mutate it to produce the differences to see if they will be conserved and selected. Otherwise, it remains an assumption.

Our results show that flagellum originated very early, before the diversification of contemporary bacterial phyla, and evolved in a stepwise fashion through a series of gene duplication, loss and transfer events.

Actually, no. They conclude that this must be the case based on the sequence similarity, but they don't actually demonstrate this supposed series of events. This is no different from other proposed series of events to explain its origin, but no series of mutations or duplication is actually being performed to produce a flagellum, or even indicate what selective advantage each intermediate state is supposed to have.

That should be its own point actually: the supposed selective advantage for each "step" of the proposed development are completely missing. None are offered at all.

The remaining flagellar genes, including those that play regulatory or auxiliary roles in flagellar assembly and function (such as the master regulators flhC and flhD, and the hook length control gene fliK), have highly variable distributions and are excluded from the core set, even though some of the genes are known to be essential for proper functioning of the flagellar system in a particular species. (The evolutionary histories of these regulatory genes, along with that of a second bacterial flagellar system remain to be described.)

In trying to establish their core set of 24 proteins, they ignore some genes known to be essential for function in some species, meaning that their flagella couldn't function without them. How, therefore do they propose that these sequences were conserved when they couldn't function and provide any advantage? They simply ignore that problem, but it doesn't go away.

The distribution of the 24 core genes among divergent bacterial phyla is most consistent with an ancient origin, predating the shared ancestor of Bacteria. However, the distribution could have been achieved through later horizontal transfer. We tested these alternatives by comparing the phylogeny of the flagellar core proteins with the phylogeny of the corresponding bacterial phyla based on 25 universally distributed genes. The phylogenies are largely congruent on branches that have >75% bootstrap support; however, there are two inconsistencies between the core-gene and the organismal phylogenies; in the placement of both the alphaproteobacterial Zymomonas mobilis and a clade of three Betaproteobacteria within the Gammaproteobacteria (Fig. 2). Because individual flagellar genes within the core set show the same evolutionary history (see above), these incongruities have likely resulted from the transfer of the entire flagellar gene complexes between proteobacterial lineages after their separation from other major bacteria groups.

The entire analysis is based on phylogenetic trees, meaning what the authors believe to be the most parsimonious explanation for their distribution, yet they note that there are still inconsistencies meaning that it cannot be authoritative (meaning this is what the authors view to be the most likely scenario but isn't the actual scenario. The conclusion is not unequivocal, this is the authors' story on how the flagellum arose, but there is no actual demonstration of this). The bolded indicate the authors' guesses on why (as is typical of phylogenies) the molecular phylogeny clashes with the phenotypical.

Thus, we conclude that despite their antiquity, the similarities among core proteins to one another are more common and, on average, stronger than to nonflagellar proteins.

Another case of an assumption that similarity indicates common origin. This is replete through the paper.

And all that is just from the first half of it!

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SpareHeadOne

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@blacklegraph:

Did I say ID was dishonest?

I guess I said that it was pioneered as an evangelism tool and then distanced itself from that label in order to become a recognised science. That's as far as I went I think.

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#719  Edited By BullPR

@blacklegraph: tagged. Come. Still don't see ref. Leave.

P.S: You really really like words.

Blablablabla. You need to support each one of your claim contradicting a scientific work with a ref from peer reviewed journal with IF>5. If you don't there is no data to analyze in your post. Just words, words, words. I would be so happy to be finally able to analyze the raw data behind the flood of your words. Please don't hesitate to tag me again. For the fun to be complete, please, at the end of each sentence where you claim showing a result, an analysis or a scientific interpretation, write the ref to the scientific paper you are referring too. From a journal with IF>5. So I can go directly to the raw data (not simple words) behind your words words words. Looking+++ forward reading your revised version of your post. I will really really love it!

P.P.S: You obviously spent some time in you post, so I'm editing a second time this comment, I leave my smartphone and I'm using my computer. It is unlikely, but there is still a chance that you are acting in good faith. If that's the case, I'm going to help you below to improve your critics, in a more scientific way, with actual data that can be verified, not only words:

Within a genome, many of these core genes show sequence similarity only to other flagellar core genes, indicating that they were derived from one another,"

That's clearly based on the flawed assumption that similarity dictates a common origin

(REF NEEDED. FROM A JOURNAL WITH IF>5. YOU CLAIM IT IS A FLAWED ASSUMPTION. THERE IS NO DATA THAT YOU ARE PRESENTING. JUST A CLAIM CRITICIZING A SCIENTIFIC WORK. A REF IS NEEDED TO SUPPORT YOUR CLAIM. IF NOT, IT IS A BLANK AFFIRMATION. SO PLEASE A REF HERE SUPPORTING YOUR CLAIM THAT IT IS "FLAWED")

. One would have to first identify an original gene, duplicate it and mutate it to produce the differences to see if they will be conserved and selected

(REF NEEDED. YOU PROPOSE ANOTHER METHODOLOGICAL APPROACH. IF YOU DON'T SUPPORT THIS WITH A SCIENTIFIC STUDY RELATED TO THE PRESENT WORK JUSTIFYING YOU SUGGESTION TO CHANGE THE METHODS OF THE PRESENT STUDY SO THE AUTHORS, ME OR ANYBODY CAN UNDERSTAND THE RATIONAL BEHIND THE PROPOSED CHANGE OF METHODS, YOUR SUGGESTION IS JUST A BLANK SUGGESTION, NOT A SCIENTIFIC ONE. SO PLEASE, A REF HERE SUPPORTING YOUR SUGGESTION OF THEM CHANGING THEIR METHODS. FROM A JOURNAL WITH IF>5)

Otherwise, it remains an assumption.

(REF NEEDED. THIS IS A CONCLUSION. TO MAKE IT A SCIENTIFIC ONE, NOT A BLANK ONE, PLEASE ADD A REF FROM A RELEVANT STUDY, FROM A JOURNAL WITH IF >5 TO SUPPORT THIS CONCLUSION. SO ANYBODY CAN GO TO THE RAW DATA OF THE SCIENTIFIC STUDY (OR STUDIES) YOU ARE REFERRING TO TO SUPPORT YOUR CONCLUSION. IF THERE IS NO REF THESE ARE JUST BLANK WORDS. THERE IS NO DATA TO BE INTERPRETED.)

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SpareHeadOne

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@bullpr:

Parents conceive a child with significant DNA sequence changes; do those sequence changes effect the way the embryo developes?

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BullPR

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@spareheadone: I'm not sure to understand your question. But just in case, a mutation in Gli3 will be associated with a polydactyly.

Does it answer to your question ?

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SpareHeadOne

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@bullpr:

Thanks

I'm trying to learn to what extent embryo development is an epigenetic process.

I've read papers that explain the removal of DNA from the newly fertilised egg and yet the foetus continues to develop.

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@spareheadone: sounds interesting. Do you have any ref I could check?

What I have seen is the sac (a purely mother material) that is able to grow because of the stimuli. Once initiated, yes it will grow, wether the foetus is dead or not. But the embryo itself, I'm not sure of what is encoded by the DNA and what is not.

I have studied some embryology, but it was in med school, more than 20 years ago...I am clearly not up to date...

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BlackLegRaph

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@blacklegraph:

Did I say ID was dishonest?

I guess I said that it was pioneered as an evangelism tool and then distanced itself from that label in order to become a recognised science. That's as far as I went I think.

Being pioneered as an evangelism tool doesn't qualify something as scientific or non-scientific though. It is the content of the thing itself that determines that.

It is clear that some definitely use evolutionary theory as an evangelism tool for naturalism as well (those are the very words of Eugenie Scott for example. She's a self-declared evangelist for Darwin.)

I think that's part of the issue with any such discussion of the nature of science. The criteria for something to be scientific is if it follows the scientific method, not who or what is associated with it.

@bullpr said:

@blacklegraph: tagged. Come. Still don't see ref. Leave.

P.S: You really really like words.

Blablablabla. You need to support each one of your claim contradicting a scientific work with a ref from peer reviewed journal with IF>5. If you don't there is no data to analyze in your post. Just words, words, words. I would be so happy to be finally able to analyze the raw data behind the flood of your words. Please don't hesitate to tag me again. For the fun to be complete, please, at the end of each sentence where you claim showing a result, an analysis or a scientific interpretation, write the ref to the scientific paper you are referring too. From a journal with IF>5. So I can go directly to the raw data (not simple words) behind your words words words. Looking+++ forward reading your revised version of your post. I will really really love it!

P.P.S: You obviously spent some time in you post, so I'm editing a second time this comment, I leave my smartphone and I'm using my computer. It is unlikely, but there is still a chance that you are acting in good faith. If that's the case, I'm going to help you below to improve your critics, in a more scientific way, with actual data that can be verified, not only words:

Within a genome, many of these core genes show sequence similarity only to other flagellar core genes, indicating that they were derived from one another,"

That's clearly based on the flawed assumption that similarity dictates a common origin

(REF NEEDED. FROM A JOURNAL WITH IF>5. YOU CLAIM IT IS A FLAWED ASSUMPTION. THERE IS NO DATA THAT YOU ARE PRESENTING. JUST A CLAIM CRITICIZING A SCIENTIFIC WORK. A REF IS NEEDED TO SUPPORT YOUR CLAIM. IF NOT, IT IS A BLANK AFFIRMATION. SO PLEASE A REF HERE SUPPORTING YOUR CLAIM THAT IT IS "FLAWED")

. One would have to first identify an original gene, duplicate it and mutate it to produce the differences to see if they will be conserved and selected

(REF NEEDED. YOU PROPOSE ANOTHER METHODOLOGICAL APPROACH. IF YOU DON'T SUPPORT THIS WITH A SCIENTIFIC STUDY RELATED TO THE PRESENT WORK JUSTIFYING YOU SUGGESTION TO CHANGE THE METHODS OF THE PRESENT STUDY SO THE AUTHORS, ME OR ANYBODY CAN UNDERSTAND THE RATIONAL BEHIND THE PROPOSED CHANGE OF METHODS, YOUR SUGGESTION IS JUST A BLANK SUGGESTION, NOT A SCIENTIFIC ONE. SO PLEASE, A REF HERE SUPPORTING YOUR SUGGESTION OF THEM CHANGING THEIR METHODS. FROM A JOURNAL WITH IF>5)

Otherwise, it remains an assumption.

(REF NEEDED. THIS IS A CONCLUSION. TO MAKE IT A SCIENTIFIC ONE, NOT A BLANK ONE, PLEASE ADD A REF FROM A RELEVANT STUDY, FROM A JOURNAL WITH IF >5 TO SUPPORT THIS CONCLUSION. SO ANYBODY CAN GO TO THE RAW DATA OF THE SCIENTIFIC STUDY (OR STUDIES) YOU ARE REFERRING TO TO SUPPORT YOUR CONCLUSION. IF THERE IS NO REF THESE ARE JUST BLANK WORDS. THERE IS NO DATA TO BE INTERPRETED.)

You just expose more and more your ineptitude in dealing with discussion.

Discussion of the scientific merit of a claim is not throwing scientific references at each other but discussing the scientific merit of what is contained in a paper. You should be able to carry an entire discussion on a single paper with no more reference than the paper itself. Shying away from that reveals an inability to actually evaluate material or the emptiness of a claim.

Again, you don't need to go searching for some obscure reference to answer someone who claims that all bacteria have mitochondria.

Lol. Science is the evaluation of words and data. You cannot evaluate data without words, and you do not necessarily need data to counter words. If words bother you so much, then you are not a scientist because you could never carry a discussion or evaluate the merit of a claim.

- You don't need a reference to understand that the assumption that similarity dictates common origin is wrong. If someone told you that since a car and a motorcycle are similar means of transport, then one originated from the other, you wouldn't need a single reference to point out that's unmerited.

-This is common sense. The only way to show beyond the shadow of a doubt that a suggested process occurs is to reproduce it, hence the value of reproducibility in science. If someone just proposes a string of events but do not show that such events can even occur, then nothing has been demonstrated, only suggested.

One can list a possible string of events that would lead to a Boeing 747 assembling itself from a scrap heap, but unless one actually reproduces said process to show it could actually occur, they are simply making a suggestion. This is because anyone can imagine any sequence of events leading to a desired conclusion, but some of those will not go beyond imagination while others may be well-grounded through reproducibility.

- Lol. You don't need a reference to see when something as an assumption. An assumption is something accepted without directly being verified.

"I saw 12 year old Suzie Smith come out of 35 year old Martha Smith's house, therefore I conclude that Martha is Suzie's mother." Although said statement is reasonable, it is still an assumption because direct relatedness has not been established, and alternative answers exist.

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BlackLegRaph

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#725  Edited By BlackLegRaph

@spareheadone said:

@bullpr:

Thanks

I'm trying to learn to what extent embryo development is an epigenetic process.

I've read papers that explain the removal of DNA from the newly fertilised egg and yet the foetus continues to develop.

I believe that the complexity of embryonic development is really exploding. Morphology also plays an important role apparently, because when the DNA from a different species was injected to the egg of another, the embryo continued to develop morphologically as the latter one, not the one from which DNA was extracted.

Basically, DNA doesn't control everything, and that goes beyond even epigenetics.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v541/n7637/full/nature21348.html

The focus of this Review is the logic and mechanisms that connect gene regulation, cellular effectors and tissue-scale mechanicsthe troika of tissue shaping. We describe how shape, at the local level, emerges from the interaction of tissue-specific genetic inputs and the self-organizing behaviour of core intracellular machines. We then discuss how this mechanistic logic is used in several modified forms to produce a variety of shaping modes. It is becoming clear that the chain of command from gene to shape is not unidirectional, owing to the discovery of mechanisms that enable changes in tissue architecture and mechanics to feed back to ‘upstream’ patterning networks. The emerging integrated view of tissue shaping therefore goes full circle, from morphogen to morphogenesis and back.

I was thinking about it and believe I have come up with an adequate superhero-related framing of the evolution issue. You know how some feign shock when told that someone doesn't believe in evolution, when in many cases those surprised individuals very well know that they are conflating 2 different things and the other sees through it?

It's like someone gasping and putting their hand to their chest then saying: "You don't believe that Batman can beat big opponents!" As if it is the most absurd thing they've ever heard.

Their opponent shakes their head, seeing through their ruse and saying, "Trying to frame the issue in that way will not help you. I certainly believe that Batman can beat big opponents, but what I said is that Batman cannot defeat Galactus by throwing a batarang at him."

Then a myriad of defenses of the claim that Batman can indeed beat Galactus in that way are given, but on closer inspection fall apart:

- Well, Batman has beaten Bane that way. (Microevolution occurs, so why not macro? Just because Batman can beat Bane doesn't mean he can do so to Galactus.)

- We have seen Batman beat a street thug that way, then beat Killer Croc. (Artificial selection, like dog breeding. Just because Batman has beaten a street thug then Croc doesn't mean he can do so to Galactus.)

- Batman just needs much more time for a much, much bigger one (batarang), but he'd eventually do it. (Time can perform miracles. Some things do not happen no matter how much time you give them.)

- Well, Batman kicked the Hulk and knocked him out. (Antibiotics resistance. Ignoring context to use a case (loss of function) to try and defend another claim (gain of function). Batman actually used gas to KO the Hulk, not the kick itself. It actually shows that physical force (loss of function mutations) is not enough).

- Well, look at this group of pictures of Batman standing victorious over Galactus. (Piltdown man, Archaeraptor, Peppered moths, etc. Turns out the pics are actually photoshopped.)

- Well, look at this series of scans. There's Batman entering the scene in his Batmoblie. Then there's Galactus looming over Earth. Then there's Batman pressing a button. Then there's Galactus fleeing Earth. (Fossil record& punctuated equilibrium. Scans are fragmentary, some unrelated, entire scenes are missing, and scans are from different comics.)

- Well, Galactus has never returned to threaten Earth, which is evidence of his defeat at Batman's hands. (Vestigial organs. Turns out that Galactus has actually threatened Earth multiple times, and it was just incorrectly assumed that he hadn't.)

- If Batman could not defeat Galactus, then the author would not have given the impression that he could. They would have given him "x" limits just as I would. (Bad design. You can't know a author's thoughts, and just because an author gave different limits than yours doesn't mean that they are bad, as they still do what their supposed to do. Just because it wasn't done your way doesn't mean it wasn't done at all.)

- Galactus has been beaten by a device created by a smart inventor, Reed Richards, so someone smart like Batman can beat him. The author would not have allowed Galactus to lose that way if he didn't want Batman to not beat him. (Biogeography. Again, you can't know an author's intentions. Also, inconsistencies exist. There are cases where Galactus has been beaten by non-inventors.)

- Devices to beat Galactus pop up in comics all the time. Batman can just grab one and make it better. (Spontaneous Generation & Abiogenesis. Not true. Such devices are actually pretty rare, and Batman can't just grab one because they exist in another comicsverse. They don't just pop up randomly, and must be created by an extremely brilliant scientist.)

Another way in which they are related is that some's assertion that Batman can defeat Galactus with a batarang is not actually based on any of his feats, but is an a priori position based on the fact that Batman is their favourite hero. Even if he never had any of his showings, they would claim that he could unwaveringly. They cannot entertain the alternative.

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BullPR

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#726  Edited By BullPR

@blacklegraph:tagged. Don't see a ref. ahahahahaha. Before leaving, I will try to educate you a little bit:

-You are totally unable to produce any data. You are just using words, not to present data, but to post false proclamations and pseudo-scientific statements. You can not truly believe that words not supported by scientific data have any value in science. Present scientific studies to support your claims and we will go somewhere. To be sure that these scientific studies are of real value, please be sure that (1) They have been published, (2) in a peer-review journal and (3) with an IF>5

-Last time I showed you how you could easily go from empty words and empty sentences to a scientific debate, by taking one of you citation and showing you where ref were needed.

-Now I will go to the next step write my self a sentence supported by data because I have the adequate references:

You don't need a reference to understand that the assumption that similarity dictates common origin is wrong

This is a quote from you (post 724). You also used this approach to critic the paper of the evolution of the flagellum, this is a quote from you (post 717)

That's clearly based on the flawed assumption that similarity dictates a common origin

The ref of the paper is

Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2007 Apr 24; 104(17): 7116–7121.Published online 2007 Apr 16. doi: 10.1073/pnas.0700266104PMCID: PMC1852327Evolution

Stepwise formation of the bacterial flagellar system

Abstract is presented post 712, full paper 714.

My answer to you, dear creationist is:

-genetic sequencing, genome comparison and construction of phylogenetic trees based on identities and similarities, as in the methods used in the paper from post 712, are used on a daily basis to track bacterial outbreak, find either a material source of contamination or a patient zero. This approach is confirmed in the real life by hundreds of groups, there are thousand of publications and patients are actually been saved, outbreak stopped because of the reality of this scientific approach. See below three examples, from strong peer-reviews journals. You have thousands of other papers like that. It is now more and more implemented in the routine of the clinical lab or microbiology (REF: Genome Res. 2015 Jan;25(1):111-8. doi: 10.1101/gr.174730.114, Sci Rep. 2017 Jan 20;7:41050, Sci Transl Med. 2012 Aug 22;4(148):148ra116. doi).

-So, in one hand, a creationist talking talking talking, criticism a method without never presenting any data supporting his claim. In the other hand, the exact same methods used in thousand of scientific rigorous studies, and even on a daily basis with clinical applications and helping to save patients. Excuse me, but I'm laughing IRL right now.

-Below the three abstracts from 3 out of thousand of the available ref.

-I really hope you get it now. But just to be sure: go back to you critic of the paper presented posts 712 and 714. Support your comments with ref from strong peer-reviews journals. Start by your first sentence (the one about similarities and common origin). Support you claims with data. I will be more than happy to read you. Please convince me that you are right. I really love a good scientific challenge. We might waste so much time, effort and money in the hospitals if you are right. I really want to know that as soon as possible. Hurry up, I'm looking forward reading the scientific studies you are going to present and that proving the papers from post 712 and from this post wrong. We might be onto something huge here. I can't wait. Tag me asap!

Genome Res. 2015 Jan;25(1):111-8. doi: 10.1101/gr.174730.114. Epub 2014 Dec 9.

Genome sequencing defines phylogeny and spread of methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus in a high transmission setting.

Tong SY1, Holden MT2, Nickerson EK3, Cooper BS4, Köser CU5, Cori A6, Jombart T6, Cauchemez S6, Fraser C6, Wuthiekanun V4, Thaipadungpanit J4, Hongsuwan M4, Day NP4, Limmathurotsakul D4, Parkhill J2, Peacock SJ7.

Author information

Abstract

Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA) is a major cause of nosocomial infection. Whole-genome sequencing of MRSA has been used to define phylogeny and transmission in well-resourced healthcare settings, yet the greatest burden of nosocomial infection occurs in resource-restricted settings where barriers to transmission are lower. Here, we study the flux and genetic diversity of MRSA on ward and individual patient levels in a hospital where transmission was common. We repeatedly screened all patients on two intensive care units for MRSA carriage over a 3-mo period. All MRSA belonged to multilocus sequence type 239 (ST 239). We defined the population structure and charted the spread of MRSA by sequencing 79 isolates from 46 patients and five members of staff, including the first MRSA-positive screen isolates and up to two repeat isolates where available. Phylogenetic analysis identified a flux of distinct ST 239 clades over time in each intensive care unit. In total, five main clades were identified, which varied in the carriage of plasmids encoding antiseptic and antimicrobial resistance determinants. Sequence data confirmed intra- and interwards transmission events and identified individual patients who were colonized by more than one clade. One patient on each unit was the source of numerous transmission events, and deep sampling of one of these cases demonstrated colonization with a "cloud" of related MRSA variants. The application of whole-genome sequencing and analysis provides novel insights into the transmission of MRSA in under-resourced healthcare settings and has relevance to wider global health.

Sci Rep. 2017 Jan 20;7:41050. doi: 10.1038/srep41050.

Complete-genome sequencing elucidates outbreak dynamics of CA-MRSA USA300 (ST8-spa t008) in an academic hospital of Paramaribo, Republic of Suriname.

Sabat AJ1, Hermelijn SM2, Akkerboom V1, Juliana A3, Degener JE1, Grundmann H1,4, Friedrich AW1.

Author information

Abstract

We report the investigation of an outbreak situation of methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA) that occurred at the Academic Hospital Paramaribo (AZP) in the Republic of Suriname from April to May 2013. We performed whole genome sequencing with complete gap closure for chromosomes and plasmids on all isolates. The outbreak involved 12 patients and 1 healthcare worker/nurse at the AZP. In total 24 isolates were investigated. spa typing, genome-wide single nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) analysis, ad hoc whole genome multilocus sequence typing (wgMLST), stable core genome MLST (cgMLST) and in silico PFGE were used to determine phylogenetic relatedness and to identify transmission. Whole-genome sequencing (WGS) showed that all isolates were members of genomic variants of the North American USA300 clone. However, WGS revealed a heterogeneous population structure of USA300 circulating at the AZP. We observed up to 8 SNPs or up to 5 alleles of difference by wgMLST when the isolates were recovered from different body sites of the same patient or if direct transmission between patients was most likely. This work describes the usefulness of complete genome sequencing of bacterial chromosomes and plasmids providing an unprecedented level of detail during outbreak investigations not being visible by using conventional typing methods.

Sci Transl Med. 2012 Aug 22;4(148):148ra116. doi: 10.1126/scitranslmed.3004129.

Tracking a hospital outbreak of carbapenem-resistant Klebsiella pneumoniae with whole-genome sequencing.

Snitkin ES1, Zelazny AM, Thomas PJ, Stock F; NISC Comparative Sequencing Program Group, Henderson DK, Palmore TN, Segre JA.

Author information

Abstract

The Gram-negative bacteria Klebsiella pneumoniae is a major cause of nosocomial infections, primarily among immunocompromised patients. The emergence of strains resistant to carbapenems has left few treatment options, making infection containment critical. In 2011, the U.S. National Institutes of Health Clinical Center experienced an outbreak of carbapenem-resistant K. pneumoniae that affected 18 patients, 11 of whom died. Whole-genome sequencing was performed on K. pneumoniae isolates to gain insight into why the outbreak progressed despite early implementation of infection control procedures. Integrated genomic and epidemiological analysis traced the outbreak to three independent transmissions from a single patient who was discharged 3 weeks before the next case became clinically apparent. Additional genomic comparisons provided evidence for unexpected transmission routes, with subsequent mining of epidemiological data pointing to possible explanations for these transmissions. Our analysis demonstrates that integration of genomic and epidemiological data can yield actionable insights and facilitate the control of nosocomial transmission.

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SpareHeadOne

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@blacklegraph:

You have invoked Batman in an evolutionary debate.

You win.

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G-Dude

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@spareheadone: In evolution there are the same, in science they are completely different whether you believe in creationism or science alone.

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@G-Dude:

Yep they are the same and completely different

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#730  Edited By jb681131

@willpayton: I believe in evolution, and you have given us many signs and proofs. But there is still a thing that amazes me and can make you wonder if there isn't something controlling how things go, is how from a single cell organism did evolution manage to come up with such things as the Human Brain, The eye or Wings for exemple ?

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SpareHeadOne

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@jb681131:

The universe is a living organism.

Evolution is not random and unguided.

Evolution is part of the inbuilt function of Mother Nature

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willpayton

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@jb681131 said:

@willpayton: I believe in evolution, and you have given us many signs and proofs. But there is still a thing that amazes me and can make you wonder if there isn't something controlling how things go, is how from a single cell organism did evolution manage to come up with such things as the Human Brain, The eye or Wings for exemple ?

Those complex systems generally evolved in similar ways... in the sense that what came first were very simple congregations of cells that gave certain benefits. Then those benefits (since they allowed those organisms to reproduce more) slowly became amplified and increased in complexity and efficiency, until eventually you get a very complex system. For example: the eye at first was just a cell that was sensitive to light. That gave those organisms a great advantage over ones that could not sense light. Then that becomes a cluster of such cells, then it becomes a depression made of those cells that allows the organism to see which direction the light comes from. Then it becomes a simple pinhole camera-type eye, then it develops a cover over that hole that becomes a lens... etc, etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_the_eye

No Caption Provided

In fact eyes have evolved many times in different organisms completely independently of each other.

The brain evolved in a similar way.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_nervous_systems

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BlackLegRaph

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#733  Edited By BlackLegRaph

@bullpr: Lol. If your response to a scientific claim is "don't see any ref," then you are neither a scientist nor capable of ever evaluating the merit of a claim.

I wonder what put you off words so much. Sticks and stones may break your bones, but words will never hurt you, dude.

- Genetic sequencing and genome comparison are certainly useful in tracking the origin of a bacterial outbreak, but that is of course very different from the claim that genetic similarity dictates common origins. You are conflating 2 different claims and pretending they are the same. If the latter were true, then rabbits share a common origin with primates over other rodents, and falcons share a common origin with parrots over hawks.

I hope I really don't have to point out the difference between a tracking of a real-time phenomenon where actually patients were tracked down and tested to unverified assumptions about how the flagellum supposedly arose.

In case it is too difficult, here are key things to note. The patient zeros of individual cases were tested and confirmed to have initial strains of the resistant bacteria (experimental verification), and the changes were reproduced where possible (reproducibility). The supposed sequence of the claimed original flagellar protein is unknown, supposed duplications and mutations unreproduced, and the survival status of each supposed step is not addressed.

@willpayton said:
@jb681131 said:

@willpayton: I believe in evolution, and you have given us many signs and proofs. But there is still a thing that amazes me and can make you wonder if there isn't something controlling how things go, is how from a single cell organism did evolution manage to come up with such things as the Human Brain, The eye or Wings for exemple ?

Those complex systems generally evolved in similar ways... in the sense that what came first were very simple congregations of cells that gave certain benefits. Then those benefits (since they allowed those organisms to reproduce more) slowly became amplified and increased in complexity and efficiency, until eventually you get a very complex system. For example: the eye at first was just a cell that was sensitive to light. That gave those organisms a great advantage over ones that could not sense light. Then that becomes a cluster of such cells, then it becomes a depression made of those cells that allows the organism to see which direction the light comes from. Then it becomes a simple pinhole camera-type eye, then it develops a cover over that hole that becomes a lens... etc, etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_the_eye

No Caption Provided

In fact eyes have evolved many times in different organisms completely independently of each other.

The brain evolved in a similar way.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_nervous_systems

Yet no hypothesis on eye-formation has ever been reproduced or verified. Obscuring language does not help the case when one digs deeper.

First of all, cells that do not have light sensitivity and the combined behavioural response to it have never been induced to develop them in a creature without them, so the very foundation claimed for eye evolution is missing.

Secondly, the fossil record shows an instantaneous appearance of eyes, not the supposed gradual sequence shown above (trilobite's compound eyes were exceptionally complex with no antecedents.)

Thirdly, there are species observed to lose their eyesight (like blind cave fish), but no species observed to have gained eyes, not even nascent ones.

Plainly speaking for jb681131's sake, the images shown above are a fanciful story and not a verified sequence. A limpet has not been demonstrated to develop an eye like an abalone's, an abalone never shown to develop one like a nautilus, etc.

Basically, all you need to know is that a creature without the genetic information for an eye has never been demonstrated to develop a cluster of responsive light sensitive cells, not to talk of a full-blown eye. Neither have the individual structures been shown to evolve independently.

Of course, the problem is only compounded by the fact that the eye is supposed to have developed several times independently. How does one accept a miracle to happen even more than once? Also, with so many independent origins, shouldn't it be a piece of cake to demonstrate just one in the lab?

All you have to do is read the link willpayton provided and separate the speculation from the established observations and facts. Don't be surprised when you are left with very little.

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BlackLegRaph

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#734  Edited By BlackLegRaph

@spareheadone said:

@blacklegraph:

You have invoked Batman in an evolutionary debate.

You win.

Such is the power of the Batgod. Even the miracles attributed to evolution pale in comparison to what he can accomplish.

@jb681131 said:

@willpayton: I believe in evolution, and you have given us many signs and proofs. But there is still a thing that amazes me and can make you wonder if there isn't something controlling how things go, is how from a single cell organism did evolution manage to come up with such things as the Human Brain, The eye or Wings for exemple ?

Unfortunately, when one digs deeper into how such structures supposedly arose, all you see is speculation, conjecture and even wishful thinking in some cases. For wings, some dinosaurs apparently ran uphill a lot, and this somehow led to the development of feathers, which then continued to grow until voila! Full-blown wings specially engineered for flight. If one points out that making reptiles run uphill presently doesn't make them develop feathers anymore than would happen for any other creature (would pigs fly if they just ran uphill for thousands of generations?), they would be rebuked for being anti-scientific.

It is important to understand that when it comes to such cases of macroevolution, explanations come backwards. It is concluded that such structures evolved from a non-existent ancestral state. Then the observations come after and are molded to fit that conclusion, not from the ground up but from the top down.

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willpayton

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Yet no hypothesis on eye-formation has ever been reproduced or verified.

You just dont learn do you?

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#736  Edited By BlackLegRaph

@willpayton said:
@blacklegraph said:

Yet no hypothesis on eye-formation has ever been reproduced or verified.

You just dont learn do you?

Learn what? How to distinguish fanciful story from established process? I think that's what you need to learn, as evidenced above ;)

Or are we back to burden of proof? Are you going to use the same excuse that there is someone somewhere who has grown an eye from an eyeless creature, but we just don't know it yet? Do you think that actually works?

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SpareHeadOne

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The oldest eye fossil I know of is over 500million years old. It is a fully formed compound eye that we see in arthropods today.

Are there fossils of eyes as they evolved into this compound eye?

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willpayton

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The oldest eye fossil I know of is over 500million years old. It is a fully formed compound eye that we see in arthropods today.

Are there fossils of eyes as they evolved into this compound eye?

http://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/eyes-on-the-prize-evolution-of-vision.html

An estimate is that eyes formed in less than 400,000 years from simple to compound. Also, as I'm sure you know, biologists dont rely solely on the fossil record to determine things like how eyes evolved. The fact that eyes evolved many times independently and the DNA record (among other things) shows how eyes can and did evolve.

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G-Dude

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@bullpr said:
@g-dude said:
Loading Video...

@willpayton: If you won't believe the Bible for God or Jesus sake, at least watch this for science then. Note it has been dramatized. I realize now that the video above was slightly lenient for creationism and biased against evolution, so here is a more purely scientific video explaining bacterial flagellum. I'll let you be the judge.

Loading Video...

I had time to come back to these videos today.

I have worked on Flagella. Even published on mutants FliA and FliC for example of P. aeruginosa. The video you have posted do not take into account more recent work. You seems more reasonable than @blacklegraph: or @dshipp17 so I hope you won't be upset by the abstract I'm posting below, from a paper explaining the evolution of the Flagella, from a few genes overtime. From PNAS, a strong peer-reviewed journal with IF>5.

I will post the full paper in my next comment.

Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2007 Apr 24; 104(17): 7116–7121.Published online 2007 Apr 16. doi: 10.1073/pnas.0700266104PMCID: PMC1852327Evolution

Stepwise formation of the bacterial flagellar system

Renyi Liu* and Howard Ochman*†‡

ABSTRACT

Elucidating the origins of complex biological structures has been one of the major challenges of evolutionary studies. The bacterial flagellum is a primary example of a complex apparatus whose origins and evolutionary history have proven difficult to reconstruct. The gene clusters encoding the components of the flagellum can include >50 genes, but these clusters vary greatly in their numbers and contents among bacterial phyla. To investigate how this diversity arose, we identified all homologs of all flagellar proteins encoded in the complete genome sequences of 41 flagellated species from 11 bacterial phyla. Based on the phylogenetic occurrence and histories of each of these proteins, we could distinguish an ancient core set of 24 structural genes that were present in the common ancestor to all Bacteria. Within a genome, many of these core genes show sequence similarity only to other flagellar core genes, indicating that they were derived from one another, and the relationships among these genes suggest the probable order in which the structural components of the bacterial flagellum arose. These results show that core components of the bacterial flagellum originated through the successive duplication and modification of a few, or perhaps even a single, precursor gene.

Keywords:

It may not have analyzed it as deep, but it gave a good sufficient explanation of how overly complex such a small organism can be. How much more our entire body comprised of many other pieces. Scientists haven't even begun to explain how the brain works, no evolutionary belief or experiment can explain the level of sophistication and power behind the brains capabilities. Thanks, I try to be competent because as humans we are all ignorant of something since we are imperfect. The Bible helps us become better through God's grace.

I read a part of the article, and I understood from the summary that it is referencing how evolution could have been a precursor to the flagellum's existence. Yet, how do the mechanics of evolution and its methods of elimination make flagellum a remote possibility in the "evolution and scientific" process in life. Flagellum required every intricate part of its design or "evolutionary state" to even become a functional flagellum initially. This means it could not exist at different beginning stages throughout evolving, there must have been an instant combustion like the supposed big bang or a chemical reaction and spark of life from a creator.

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G-Dude

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@spareheadone: Thus, from the observation of evolution it is easy to see how presumably impartial it is in the name of science.

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BullPR

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#741  Edited By BullPR

@blacklegraph: ahahahahahaha.

Still empty words. Please provide us a citation for each one of your claims.

You now know how to do it. Looking forward reading you. Don't forget. Impact factor > 5. I hope you will start with a ref supporting you first claim, then move on to the second, the third etc...It will be easier to follow. But you can of course justify them in the order you want. Please tag me asap my dear creationist. It will be such a relief to be able to finally have access to some real data and real scientific studies. Hurry up, I can not wait.

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BullPR

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#742  Edited By BullPR

@g-dude: thanks for your calm answer.

I honestly don't fully understand what is exactly your point, but I will agree with you that Nature is beautiful, very very complex and that we are far to understand it completely. Yes the brain is beautiful. If you want to explain this beauty by the divine intervention of G., well, clearly I disagree with you, but I see where you are coming from.

When you are a true believer you also see (from my experience) the hand of G. behind the love to your children or the death of your parents. So please, don't be aggressive or intolerant and keep an open mind to the scientific discoveries that might hurt (or not) your core convictions.

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jb681131

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@bullpr said:

@g-dude: thanks for your calm answer.

I honestly don't fully understand what is exactly your point, but I will agree with you that Nature is beautiful, very very complex and that we are far to understand it completely. Yes the brain is beautiful. If you want to explain this beauty by the divine intervention of G., well, clearly I disagree with you, but I see where you are coming from.

When you are a true believer you also see (from my experience) the hand of G. behind the love to your children or the death of your parents. So please, don't be aggressive or intolerant and keep an open mind to the scientific discoveries that might hurt (or not) your core convictions.

As this is true, why should scientist eleminate the fact that theire might be something else controling things ? Lots of things are still a mystery and some religious explaination aren't all farfetched (but I will agree that a lot are).

On the other hand, believers of God or other supreme forces should agree that some things told and believed are plain false. Religions and beliefs should not be here to explain how all things work and became to be, This is what science does, even if it doesn't explain all yet, It might one day. In the meantime, Religions / Beliefs are just here to temporally give an explaination on things that we cannot yet scientificaly explain. It helps (has helped) to re-ensure people and create a bond between people with a collective belief. Religion should only be a filler. But a filler that is needed not to be too lost.

For those who don't believe in religion, it is just that they believe that science will for sure eventually explain it all and that their is not need for religion. It's their rights to believe so, even if eventually science might not explain it all.

To conclude, I am not religious, but I find some things very hard to scientificaly explain and very to imagine how science will explain it. I am just not religious because lots of things and rituals (mass is one) seem to me stupid, useless, strange, out of nowhere, a waste of time in all the know religions.

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BlackLegRaph

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#744  Edited By BlackLegRaph

@bullpr said:

@blacklegraph: ahahahahahaha.

Still empty words. Please provide us a citation for each one of your claims.

You now know how to do it. Looking forward reading you. Don't forget. Impact factor > 5. I hope you will start with a ref supporting you first claim, then move on to the second, the third etc...It will be easier to follow. But you can of course justify them in the order you want. Please tag me asap my dear creationist. It will be such a relief to be able to finally have access to some real data and real scientific studies. Hurry up, I can not wait.

Lol. This is clearly a waste of time. It is apparent that you will just keep hiding behind the barricade of asking for references because you cannot debate ideas on their own merit. At least that makes it evident that your claims are really empty, so no sweat off my back.

@willpayton: @spareheadone said:

The oldest eye fossil I know of is over 500million years old. It is a fully formed compound eye that we see in arthropods today.

Are there fossils of eyes as they evolved into this compound eye?

Fossils, like a number of other things used to defend evolution in the sense of Neo-Darwinism are used when convenient. Therefore, the presence of a fossil is evidence that evolution occurred. The absence of a fossil is also evidence that evolution occurred because it must have been rapid.

It is abundantly clear that fossils provide nothing for the claims that eyes evolved from nothing and even contradict it, but the paradigm dictates that they must somehow be fit into the narrative. Therefore, it is a claim that cannot really be falsified, as Karl Popper noted right from the start about the metaphysical nature of such claims.

This is pretty evident even in the manner in which willpayton speaks of it. He accepts as a foregone conclusion that eyes evolved independently and then tries to form a narrative from it after the fact (i.e "it is estimated that it must have happened rapidly and we can imagine how it may possibly have happened even though we cannot show it.")

Imagine if someone dug up a succession of cars and claimed that steam engines evolved into combustion engines, and although they could not demonstrate even the first proposed step or show it occurring in situ, they gave a story about how it could happen. Does that carry any weight? Should anyone be surprised that people would reject that as an explanation?

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BullPR

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#745  Edited By BullPR

@blacklegraph: tagged. Come as soon as possible to finally see the ref allowing you to claim the scientific studies posted in this thread are wrong and/or flawed. Hoping to see first a rebuttal on the flagella paper, and then probably one against how the phylogenetic tree were used to track an outbreak, based an similarities and last common ancestor.

A little bit disappointed to see no ref. You do not present scientific ideas but empty claims. I am all for spending hours with you debating scientific ideas. But you presented for the moment a grand total of zero idea. Just empty words. But I still have hope and will come back each time asap. Nothing is more fun than a good scientific debate. Please search the literature as soon as you can, present and organized your ideas the way I showed you, put the refs either after each claim or at the end of each sentence. Then tag me again. I'm looking forward to be able to finally have a debate with a creationist and I'm counting on you. All this warm-up only got more excited to start. IF>5 don't forget. This is going to be so much fun! No. More than that. With your ability to talk talk talk, if you can add some real scientific material from strong scientific studies published in journals with IF>5, this won't be fun. This will be GREAT!

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@bullpr: I always keep an open mind to science, but I have no doubt God is real. The Bible was divinely written and made by God's inspiration, to go against the Bible would be to go against God.

What I meant is flagellum couldn't function to exist without every piece already set in motion.

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BlackLegRaph

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#747  Edited By BlackLegRaph

@spareheadone:

@jb681131 said:
@bullpr said:

@g-dude: thanks for your calm answer.

I honestly don't fully understand what is exactly your point, but I will agree with you that Nature is beautiful, very very complex and that we are far to understand it completely. Yes the brain is beautiful. If you want to explain this beauty by the divine intervention of G., well, clearly I disagree with you, but I see where you are coming from.

When you are a true believer you also see (from my experience) the hand of G. behind the love to your children or the death of your parents. So please, don't be aggressive or intolerant and keep an open mind to the scientific discoveries that might hurt (or not) your core convictions.

As this is true, why should scientist eleminate the fact that theire might be something else controling things ? Lots of things are still a mystery and some religious explaination aren't all farfetched (but I will agree that a lot are).

On the other hand, believers of God or other supreme forces should agree that some things told and believed are plain false. Religions and beliefs should not be here to explain how all things work and became to be, This is what science does, even if it doesn't explain all yet, It might one day. In the meantime, Religions / Beliefs are just here to temporally give an explaination on things that we cannot yet scientificaly explain. It helps (has helped) to re-ensure people and create a bond between people with a collective belief. Religion should only be a filler. But a filler that is needed not to be too lost.

For those who don't believe in religion, it is just that they believe that science will for sure eventually explain it all and that their is not need for religion. It's their rights to believe so, even if eventually science might not explain it all.

To conclude, I am not religious, but I find some things very hard to scientificaly explain and very to imagine how science will explain it. I am just not religious because lots of things and rituals (mass is one) seem to me stupid, useless, strange, out of nowhere, a waste of time in all the know religions.

The answer to your first question is clear when you study the roots of ideas, specifically Darwinism in this case. Have you read the Origin of Species? More specifically, the chapter on the eye? I'll post it below, but reading Darwin's own words is the best way to see the thought processes that took place behind his claims. Some things you may notice include:

- He noted the problem the eye posed to his theory. He actually offered no explanation as to how it could have evolved but gave the suggestion based on simpler creature's eyes that it was possible (the issue is pretty much in the same state today). He also adds that he doesn't believe that God would have done it that way (pretty frequent in his explanations).

Basically, Darwin makes an appeal to philosophical naturalism throughout. A large chunk of his arguments were theological in nature (why he believed God would have done things differently), which is why I don't believe that anyone who has actually read the book seriously claims that Darwin's points were mostly scientific (he actually starts out his book saying that he was making a case against special creation).

There is a quote that sums it up quite well that says that Darwin did not win over the establishment with any actual demonstration of his claims, but by his appeal to purely naturalistic means.

Organs of extreme perfection and complication. To suppose that the eye, with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest possible degree. Yet reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a perfect and complex eye to one very imperfect and simple, each grade being useful to its possessor, can be shown to exist; if further, the eye does vary ever so slightly, and the variations be inherited, which is certainly the case; and if any variation or modification in the organ be ever useful to an animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, can hardly be considered real. How a nerve comes to be sensitive to light, hardly concerns us more than how life itself first originated; but I may remark that several facts make me suspect that any sensitive nerve may be rendered sensitive to light, and likewise to those coarser vibrations of the air which produce sound.

In looking for the gradations by which an organ in any species has been perfected, we ought to look exclusively to its lineal ancestors; but this is scarcely ever possible, and we are forced in each case to look to species of the same group, that is to the collateral descendants from the same original parent-form, in order to see what gradations are possible, and for the chance of some gradations having been transmitted from the earlier stages of descent, in an unaltered or little altered condition. Amongst existing Vertebrata, we find but a small amount of gradation in the structure of the eye, and from fossil species we can learn nothing on this head. In this great class we should probably have to descend far beneath the lowest known fossiliferous stratum to discover the earlier stages, by which the eye has been perfected.

In the Articulata we can commence a series with an optic nerve merely coated with pigment, and without any other mechanism; and from this low stage, numerous gradations of structure, branching off in two fundamentally different lines, can be shown to exist, until we reach a moderately high stage of perfection. In certain crustaceans, for instance, there is a double cornea, the inner one divided into facets, within each of which there is a lens shaped swelling. In other crustaceans the transparent cones which are coated by pigment, and which properly act only by excluding lateral pencils of light, are convex at their upper ends and must act by convergence; and at their lower ends there seems to be an imperfect vitreous substance. With these facts, here far too briefly and imperfectly given, which show that there is much graduated diversity in the eyes of living crustaceans, and bearing in mind how small the number of living animals is in proportion to those which have become extinct, I can see no very great difficulty (not more than in the case of many other structures) in believing that natural selection has converted the simple apparatus of an optic nerve merely coated with pigment and invested by transparent membrane, into an optical instrument as perfect as is possessed by any member of the great Articulate class.

He who will go thus far, if he find on finishing this treatise that large bodies of facts, otherwise inexplicable, can be explained by the theory of descent, ought not to hesitate to go further, and to admit that a structure even as perfect as the eye of an eagle might be formed by natural selection, although in this case he does not know any of the transitional grades. His reason ought to conquer his imagination; though I have felt the difficulty far too keenly to be surprised at any degree of hesitation in extending the principle of natural selection to such startling lengths.

It is scarcely possible to avoid comparing the eye to a telescope. We know that this instrument has been perfected by the long-continued efforts of the highest human intellects; and we naturally infer that the eye has been formed by a somewhat analogous process. But may not this inference be presumptuous? Have we any right to assume that the Creator works by intellectual powers like those of man? If we must compare the eye to an optical instrument, we ought in imagination to take a thick layer of transparent tissue, with a nerve sensitive to light beneath, and then suppose every part of this layer to be continually changing slowly in density, so as to separate into layers of different densities and thicknesses, placed at different distances from each other, and with the surfaces of each layer slowly changing in form. Further we must suppose that there is a power always intently watching each slight accidental alteration in the transparent layers; and carefully selecting each alteration which, under varied circumstances, may in any way, or in any degree, tend to produce a distincter image. We must suppose each new state of the instrument to be multiplied by the million; and each to be preserved till a better be produced, and then the old ones to be destroyed. In living bodies, variation will cause the slight alterations, generation will multiply them almost infinitely, and natural selection will pick out with unerring skill each improvement. Let this process go on for millions on millions of years; and during each year on millions of individuals of many kinds; and may we not believe that a living optical instrument might thus be formed as superior to one of glass, as the works of the Creator are to those of man?

If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down. But I can find out no such case. No doubt many organs exist of which we do not know the transitional grades, more especially if we look to much-isolated species, round which, according to my theory, there has been much extinction. Or again, if we look to an organ common to all the members of a large class, for in this latter case the organ must have been first formed at an extremely remote period, since which all the many members of the class have been developed; and in order to discover the early transitional grades through which the organ has passed, we should have to look to very ancient ancestral forms, long since become extinct.

We should be extremely cautious in concluding that an organ could not have been formed by transitional gradations of some kind. Numerous cases could be given amongst the lower animals of the same organ performing at the same time wholly distinct functions; thus the alimentary canal respires, digests, and excretes in the larva of the dragon-fly and in the fish Cobites. In the Hydra, the animal may be turned inside out, and the exterior surface will then digest and the stomach respire. In such cases natural selection might easily specialise, if any advantage were thus gained, a part or organ, which had performed two functions, for one function alone, and thus wholly change its nature by insensible steps. Two distinct organs sometimes perform simultaneously the same function in the same individual; to give one instance, there are fish with gills or branchiae that breathe the air dissolved in the water, at the same time that they breathe free air in their swimbladders, this latter organ having a ductus pneumaticus for its supply, and being divided by highly vascular partitions. In these cases, one of the two organs might with ease be modified and perfected so as to perform all the work by itself, being aided during the process of modification by the other organ; and then this other organ might be modified for some other and quite distinct purpose, or be quite obliterated.

The illustration of the swimbladder in fishes is a good one, because it shows us clearly the highly important fact that an organ originally constructed for one purpose, namely flotation, may be converted into one for a wholly different purpose, namely respiration. The swimbladder has, also, been worked in as an accessory to the auditory organs of certain fish, or, for I do not know which view is now generally held, a part of the auditory apparatus has been worked in as a complement to the swimbladder. All physiologists admit that the swimbladder is homologous, or 'ideally similar,' in position and structure with the lungs of the higher vertebrate animals: hence there seems to me to be no great difficulty in believing that natural selection has actually converted a swimbladder into a lung, or organ used exclusively for respiration.

I can, indeed, hardly doubt that all vertebrate animals having true lungs have descended by ordinary generation from an ancient prototype, of which we know nothing, furnished with a floating apparatus or swimbladder. We can thus, as I infer from Professor Owen's interesting description of these parts, understand the strange fact that every particle of food and drink which we swallow has to pass over the orifice of the trachea, with some risk of falling into the lungs, notwithstanding the beautiful contrivance by which the glottis is closed. In the higher Vertebrata the branchiae have wholly disappeared the slits on the sides of the neck and the loop-like course of the arteries still marking in the embryo their former position. But it is conceivable that the now utterly lost branchiae might have been gradually worked in by natural selection for some quite distinct purpose: in the same manner as, on the view entertained by some naturalists that the branchiae and dorsal scales of Annelids are homologous with the wings and wing-covers of insects, it is probable that organs which at a very ancient period served for respiration have been actually converted into organs of flight.

Although we must be extremely cautious in concluding that any organ could not possibly have been produced by successive transitional gradations, yet, undoubtedly, grave cases of difficulty occur, some of which will be discussed in my future work.

One of the gravest is that of neuter insects, which are often very differently constructed from either the males or fertile females; but this case will be treated of in the next chapter. The electric organs of fishes offer another case of special difficulty; it is impossible to conceive by what steps these wondrous organs have been produced; but, as Owen and others have remarked, their intimate structure closely resembles that of common muscle; and as it has lately been shown that Rays have an organ closely analogous to the electric apparatus, and yet do not, as Matteuchi asserts, discharge any electricity, we must own that we are far too ignorant to argue that no transition of any kind is possible.

The electric organs offer another and even more serious difficulty; for they occur in only about a dozen fishes, of which several are widely remote in their affinities. Generally when the same organ appears in several members of the same class, especially if in members having very different habits of life, we may attribute its presence to inheritance from a common ancestor; and its absence in some of the members to its loss through disuse or natural selection. But if the electric organs had been inherited from one ancient progenitor thus provided, we might have expected that all electric fishes would have been specially related to each other. Nor does geology at all lead to the belief that formerly most fishes had electric organs, which most of their modified descendants have lost. The presence of luminous organs in a few insects, belonging to different families and orders, offers a parallel case of difficulty. Other cases could be given; for instance in plants, the very curious contrivance of a mass of pollen-grains, borne on a foot-stalk with a sticky gland at the end, is the same in Orchis and Asclepias, genera almost as remote as possible amongst flowering plants. In all these cases of two very distinct species furnished with apparently the same anomalous organ, it should be observed that, although the general appearance and function of the organ may be the same, yet some fundamental difference can generally be detected. I am inclined to believe that in nearly the same way as two men have sometimes independently hit on the very same invention, so natural selection, working for the good of each being and taking advantage of analogous variations, has sometimes modified in very nearly the same manner two parts in two organic beings, which owe but little of their structure in common to inheritance from the same ancestor.

Although in many cases it is most difficult to conjecture by what transitions an organ could have arrived at its present state; yet, considering that the proportion of living and known forms to the extinct and unknown is very small, I have been astonished how rarely an organ can be named, towards which no transitional grade is known to lead. The truth of this remark is indeed shown by that old canon in natural history of 'Natura non facit saltum.' We meet with this admission in the writings of almost every experienced naturalist; or, as Milne Edwards has well expressed it, nature is prodigal in variety, but niggard in innovation. Why, on the theory of Creation, should this be so? Why should all the parts and organs of many independent beings, each supposed to have been separately created for its proper place in nature, be so invariably linked together by graduated steps? Why should not Nature have taken a leap from structure to structure? On the theory of natural selection, we can clearly understand why she should not; for natural selection can act only by taking advantage of slight successive variations; she can never take a leap, but must advance by the shortest and slowest steps.

The key thing to note is the manner in which Darwin addresses the issue, which I already mentioned previously. He claims that all creatures and organs evolved from an unknown ancestral state, then works backwards to try and imagine ways in which such things could occur, while noting cases of "great difficulty."

In short, he argues in a similar manner as @willpayton, not actually showing any direct evidence for his claims, but arguing that it is possible that such "perfected organs" arose through successive gradations, and one cannot rule that out completely, and although many are unknown and some seem downright impossible one must have faith that it must have occurred because the Creator would not have done it so.

A basic analogy in similar style is: Unless it can be shown that a flip-flop could not possibly have transitioned to winter boots through successful gradations, I see no difficulty in believing that the flip-flop evolved into the winter boot.

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G-Dude

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@jb681131: Well the mass rituals are a bit stupendous, and it is not a requirement to go to mass in order to be a christian. Simply read the Bible for yourself and follow the 10 commandments as well as you can. Jesus came to show the world love and if we love him we will keep his commandments to the best of our ability.

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G-Dude

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@g-dude said:

@bullpr: I always keep an open mind to science, but I have no doubt God is real. The Bible was divinely written and made by God's inspiration, to go against the Bible would be to go against God.

What I meant is flagellum couldn't function to exist without every piece already set in motion.

I should also mention that I don't take everything in the Bible literally either. There are many contextual chapters that require some in-depth study. There are exceptions and reasons behind everything written in the Bible.

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BlackLegRaph

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#750  Edited By BlackLegRaph

@jb681131: This quote from Sir Fred Hoyle sums it up nicely:

"We found that there’s just no way it could happen. If you start with a simple micro-organism, no matter how it arose on earth, primordial soup or otherwise, then if you just have that single organizational, informational unit and you said that you copied this sequentially time and again, the question is does that accumulate enough copying errors, enough mistakes in copying, and do these accumulations of copying errors lead to the diversity of living forms that one sees on earth. That’s the general, usual formulation of the theory of evolution. . . . We looked at this quite systematically, quite carefully, in numerical terms. Checking all the numbers, rates of mutation and so on, we decided that there is no way in which that could even marginally approach the truth.”

There is so much ideological investiture in the theory of evolution as formulated in Darwinism, that faith in miracles is just as much commonplace in it as in any religion. You have to believe that naturalism is the answer in spite of what you see with your eyes, and no matter how insuperable (impossible to overcome) to the imagination.

One needs to take a step back and realize the absurdity of the claim......that the eye which goes beyond what supposedly intelligent humans can create and reproduce, and from which they actually draw inspiration arose mindlessly from a soup of chemicals. Let it sink in fully.