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#51 Posted by Sungsam (2858 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: is phantom stranger from above multiversal ?

The only piece of extremely up in the air shaky implied evidence we can get to such a thing is when Phantom Stranger and the Spectre fought to a near stand still and the Voice (who is just an avatar of the Presence) stated their fight would wreck all of creation (which often times means all of existence).

Fighting Spectre is a little shaky because Spectre has as many jobbing as he does Multiversal feats. To truly scale to Spectre for Multiversality, you have to prove that the particular character you are scaling to Spectre was portraying Spectre or Multiversal or if it was a DC writer who has portrayed Spectre as Multiversal at once.

One could argue that the N52 fight of PS and Spectre was Multiversal since Presence implied it.

But the weight of Presence's statements depends on the interpretation of the type of debater you are. There are some people who think the statements of even Cosmic characters mean nothing for some reason.

I personally, if you asked me, I take the Presence's (the Voice) statement on PS being above Multiversal as true. I don't think a Cosmic character would just say shit just because.

And destroying all of Creation in DC is a way above Multiversal feat considering DC's presumed theoretical size in its Cosmology.

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#52 Posted by Supermanthor (15880 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: so it all depends on me about how i view it right ?

ok thanks

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#53 Edited by Sungsam (2858 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermanthor said:

@sungsam: so it all depends on me about how i view it right ?

ok thanks

It depends on if you believe the Presence's statement to be credible. That the fight between Spectre and Stranger would destroy everything if they continued. Again, that depends, do you believe everything the Presence says? I personally do. But some people on this forum are extremely skeptical to the core on statements.

It makes you wonder as well, why a bunch of characters who can destroy entire Timelines and Universes cannot time travel to fix their problems for some stupid reason. I don't know, because plot maybe.

A lot of Multiversal characters in fiction who derive their power from statements have questionable power levels because often times of plot induced stupidity like this.

Like how Lucifer doesn't time travel to save Michael even though he could have done that.

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#54 Edited by Supermanthor (15880 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: well i can't really tell you about how I feel about talking statements seriously

I however when talking to others about high tiers deperment only takes statements seriously when he or she has other feats that suggests he ot she can do that the one the other guy suggested

Like once batman said Superman can break moon in two which I believed because he has other feats suggests he can

Another one if I recall correctly is when Tony said hulk can beat galactus which I don't take seriously because he doesn't have any let alone many feats suggests he could .

Here I can definitely see why you believe in presence word .but for me it's different to believe. if phantom Starnge performs two or three more feats like this in future I will believe that he is multiversal + . Because he didn't did anything close to it ever so it's hard for me .

As for time travel it's a one big plot device in marvel they defeted beyonders via time travel

And in age of Ultron storyline they stopped Ultron via time travel

But they didn't do that in other storylines SMH...

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#55 Posted by Sungsam (2858 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermanthor:

This type of problem you see is most prevalent in comics. Due to the multitude of writers and the writers laxity on caring little for power consistency since they're more interested in narrative story telling than power level consistency.

For characters like Phantom Stranger, it's best to leave him out of debates. What VSBattles Wiki did good is to put him at an "Unknown Tier" since we just don't know yet.

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#56 Posted by Supermanthor (15880 posts) - - Show Bio
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#57 Posted by Supermanthor (15880 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: hey i have a question do guys like one above all beyonder knows about other fictions like dc and dbz exist ?

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#58 Posted by Sungsam (2858 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: hey i have a question do guys like one above all beyonder knows about other fictions like dc and dbz exist ?

Beyonder didn't even know how Time worked when he first entered the Marvel Multiverse. I don't think he would know anything about DBZ or DC, unless Marvel was made aware at the time of other fictions.

TOAA is a bit trickier. He is stated to be the embodiment of everyone who reads Marvel Comics and writes Marvel Comics. But I don't really like Meta-Stuff.

DC and Marvel have crossed over a few times. But the crossover is still canon to DC but not to Marvel.

I would have to say no on both accounts.

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#59 Posted by Supermanthor (15880 posts) - - Show Bio
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#60 Posted by RedHood_JayTodd (1343 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
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#61 Posted by Sungsam (2858 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: Favorite historical event?

I have several favorites. French Revolution, Napoleonic Wars, American Revolution, start of the Ming Dynasty, Battle of Stalingrad, end of the Soviet Union, etc. if the latter last can count as a historical event, if it's too recent to you.

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#63 Posted by Supermanthor (15880 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: who are infinite infinities ? ( marvel )

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#64 Edited by Sungsam (2858 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermanthor said:

@sungsam: who are infinite infinities ? ( marvel )

Um, they're Cosmic Entities of Marvel that seem to come from outside the Marvel Multiverse who made a ONE TIME appearance.

No Caption Provided

According to Quasar in the scan, they are so powerful, that the power level difference between the Infinite Infinites and Living Tribunal, Eternity and Oblivion is equal to the difference between Living Tribunal, Eternity, etc. to a Human.

In other words, how much more powerful is Living Tribunal compared to a Human? That's as much the same times the Infinite Infinites are more powerful than Living Tribunal.

In other OTHER words, they're the Living Tribunal to the Living Tribunal. To them, Living Tribunal is just a mortal human in comparison to their power. They're overpowered as heck IF this is true. And I do think that one of them would stalemate Featherine or probably even JMD Presence.

Yet again, they don't do much of feats. Just implied power. Yet again and again, Featherine is also off on a lot of implied power.

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#65 Posted by Supermanthor (15880 posts) - - Show Bio
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#66 Edited by Supermanthor (15880 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: by the way wasnt they made appearance in ultimates book by ewing ?

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#67 Posted by Sungsam (2858 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: by the way wasnt they made appearance in ultimates book by ewing ?

I don't think the Infinite Infinites made another appearance. I'll try to see the list of where they made appearances.

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#68 Posted by Supermanthor (15880 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: oh ok

if you found something tell me ok

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#69 Posted by Supermanthor (15880 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: how complicated is Marvels cosmology currently ?

And how big turely is Marvel's multiverse compare to some other fiction like dbz or DC ?

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#70 Posted by Supermanthor (15880 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: also who is this fulcurm ? Where he ranks in marvel cosmology ?

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#71 Edited by Sungsam (2858 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermanthor said:

@sungsam: how complicated is Marvels cosmology currently ?

And how big turely is Marvel's multiverse compare to some other fiction like dbz or DC ?

Marvel has an Infinite Multiverse that multiplies itself infinitely for every universe it has, every instantly and 0th to 0th. And there are Infinite Higher Dimensions above the Marvel Multiverse. Making up the Marvel Omniverse.

The Omniverse of Marvel is embodied by multiple different Infinite-Dimensional beings like Multi-Eternity and Infinity, and the other abstracts. Forming as extensions of the Living Tribunal.

Outside the Marvel Omniverse is Oblivion's Nothingness Realm, and the Beyond Realm outside Reality according to the Beyond Corporation. Marvel has less contradictions than DC so it's far easier to understand.

There is a space between the Universes of Marvel.

I would rank the Marvel Omniverse to being equal to the Sphere of the Gods according to Matteis's view. DC dwarfs Marvel's Multiverse by several miles.

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#72 Posted by Supermanthor (15880 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: ok thanks

Now can you tell me about this guy name fulcrum ?

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#73 Edited by Thekillerklok (9915 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: Fun question, Weakest character from marvel who could Beat Meng Hao?

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#74 Posted by Supermanthor (15880 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: how powerful is scathan ( celestials ) ?

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#75 Posted by Sungsam (2858 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: ok thanks

Now can you tell me about this guy name fulcrum ?

Some character that at one point created the Celestials. This is retconned though. So it's not important.

@sungsam: Fun question, Weakest character from marvel who could Beat Meng Hao?

The EOS Meng Hao? Not sure because I'm still on the gripes on how big the verse is. Because I don't really understand it.

I was at first under the impression that there were infinite levels of reality and each of those levels has infinite higher dimensions in them.

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#76 Posted by Supermanthor (15880 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam said:
@supermanthor said:

@sungsam: ok thanks

Now can you tell me about this guy name fulcrum ?

Some character that at one point created the Celestials.

This is retconned though.

when its got retconned ? just curious

So it's not important.

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#77 Posted by Sungsam (2858 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam said:
@supermanthor said:

@sungsam: ok thanks

Now can you tell me about this guy name fulcrum ?

Some character that at one point created the Celestials.

This is retconned though.

when its got retconned ? just curious

So it's not important.

Since that Ultimates story where basically it was the First Firmament rather who created the Celestials.

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#78 Posted by Supermanthor (15880 posts) - - Show Bio
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#79 Edited by zgtfreak (1364 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam Yo, I was curious on your view about NLF-type abilities, specifically pertaining to CCC Gilgamesh. I already have formed my own opinion, but it's always nice to here someone else's.

See, I'm the type to believe Gil can take on beings way above him depending on their abilities and defenses. I even believe Gil can kill Umineko Voyagers in a fight due to a vastly superior amount of abilities that have feats of one shotting people stronger than him. For instance, Gilgamesh possesses anti immortality and regeneration weapons that can disable all of that completely (aka a hard-counter to Umineko regeneration), along with instill the concept of death in people with no concept of death, and then finish them off with Enuma Elish, which is stated to kill anything regardless of immortality, status (power), ect, and flat out has a feat of one shotting a being with more raw power than Gil. Gilgamesh also has an ability known as SNI, where he knows everything about his enemy entirely and can see every possible action in a fight and can tell how entire battles will end before they even begin, and shows him what steps to take to ensure victory (if there is any); said ability can see the entire events of history, even in other timelines before they happen. Gilgamesh also can bind you with chains that are unbreakable if you are fully divine/the more divine you are, the stronger they get. With all of this (and this is a very very small list of his abilities), I can see him taking on beings way above him unless they also have impressive abilities or feats. I don't think Gilgamesh is unbeatable by any means, as he can't even defeat the strongest non omnipotent in his own verse (aka Arcueid) due to her own abilities, so I am not implying Gil solos everyone. For instance, I think Aurora stomps Gilgamesh before he can do anything since she's shown the ability to stop reality entirely in an instant (something Voyagers aren't shown to do). Based off Voyager ability showings, I think Gil could handle them. I can see EoS Battler stalemating him since they both have crazy abilities, despite the power gap, though I'm inclined to believe even he'd lose.

My question to you is, do you think that all of these abilities and Enuma Elish (despite its specific description and feats) combined is a massive NLF? Or do you think it may be possible? I'm inclined to believe they can work, but I can understand if you call that a massive NLF.

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#80 Edited by ovy7 (2631 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: Two "for fun" questions:

  1. Weakest Marvel character that can beat Beatrice (Umineko)
  2. Weakest Marvel character that can solve Beatrice's game (i.e. the Rokenjima murders)
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#81 Posted by Zachary_Stomps (23 posts) - - Show Bio

Could you send me $2000 please?

Via PayPal.

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#83 Posted by Supermanthor (15880 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: dude do have scans where it says that marvel is an infinite multiverse ?

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#84 Edited by Sungsam (2858 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak said:

@sungsam Yo, I was curious on your view about NLF-type abilities, specifically pertaining to CCC Gilgamesh. I already have formed my own opinion, but it's always nice to here someone else's.

My question to you is, do you think that all of these abilities and Enuma Elish (despite its specific description and feats) combined is a massive NLF? Or do you think it may be possible? I'm inclined to believe they can work, but I can understand if you call that a massive NLF.

I have a lot of views on battle debating that I don't really put out around here myself.

Yes, that is an astronomical NLF. But I don't really have a problem with NLFs. Though using it, will make Ajimu look 100% Omnipotent. By the standards of this forum that I must upheld to stick around for my reputation, I will have to call that an NLF. Because when push comes to push, it's what the writer thinks.

So yeah, I also have inner opinions I don't say due to them being extremely unpopular. But I don't have issues with NLFs, me personally, if I was to rewrite how debating works.

For example, we have no idea if a Universe level reality warping in Verse A is more potent or not than a Multiverse level reality warping in Verse B by potency, just because it has less range. Which is often times a hole in Multiverse debating in general. One of the things why I'm sometimes aloof on the NLF witch hunt.

I feel like that reality warping potency sometimes transcends and is separate from the very idea of dimensional tiering. I will incline to agree with you if we are not on this forum. To investigate this further.

And though it might not seem like it, I don't really believe in Dimensional tiering too much, because it is defined differently in many verses.

Fucking Green Lantern appeared in the Source Wall which is beyond Infinite Dimensions at that point, but he's not Beyonder level just because he's there all of a sudden.

Not that I hate it, I just get bothered by its holes whenever it is used. I only use it because the writers use it and I respect their decisions on their verse and there's more problems accepting it than not. Unlike some jackasses on this forum because it is better to respect the author's decision than to cow tow arguing with 10 people who disagree with how they disagree on dimensional tiering.

There is no way to truly determine which interpretation is correct. So yeah, your conclusions are in fact still in a way plausible.

@ovy7 said:

@sungsam: Two "for fun" questions:

  1. Weakest Marvel character that can beat Beatrice (Umineko)

If your interpretation of Umineko is correct, based on your scans, which is largely popularized by those Russian Umineko fans, then I can only see the Infinite Infinites and Current Molecule Man putting a curb against them.

Based on the normative interpretation that the Infinite Ladder is just a normal sized Infinite Dimensional Multiverse (From what I understand from one of my PM conversations kilgpmtkra, he doesn't really seem to agree that the Human Domain is Infinite Dimensional). The only non-Omnipotent thing above Infinite Dimensional in Umineko is just Featherine from this model and a few others..... I still think Featherine is just as strong regardless of these interpretations due to her step removal from the Creator.

Eternity and Infinity might do the trick agaisnt Beo.. Because Marvel's Cosmics are either only Baseline Multiversal to Infinite Dimensional+. Which is why I skipped. Lol

I'm sorry if I'm giving two answers, but I'm used to discussing DC's self contradicting Cosmology which is why I talk to you about Umineko like this now.

Given the seemingly few controversies I hear on Umineko's cosmology that I'm not so keen on to give a proper answer. I'm not yet one of the good type of persons to properly answer this yet.

@ovy7 said:

@sungsam: Two "for fun" questions:

  1. Weakest Marvel character that can solve Beatrice's game (i.e. the Rokenjima murders)

As for your second question. I believe at least someone from this list might do the trick.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/blackspidey2099/lists/top-10-smartest-marvel-men/56429/

@supermanthor said:

@sungsam: dude do have scans where it says that marvel is an infinite multiverse ?

Marvel having at least Infinite Universes is an old concept and an old idea now. Very much common knowledge.

Here is the newest scan confirming Marvel has Infinite Universes that constantly multiplies instantly like in a Rapid Quantum Multiverse.

No Caption Provided

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#85 Posted by Supermanthor (15880 posts) - - Show Bio
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#86 Posted by SpareHeadOne (5851 posts) - - Show Bio

Do you have multi dimensional consciousness?

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#87 Edited by zgtfreak (1364 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: I have a lot of views on battle debating that I don't really put out around here myself.

By the standards of this forum that I must upheld to stick around for my reputation, I will have to call that an NLF. Because when push comes to push, it's what the writer thinks.

So yeah, I also have inner opinions I don't say due to them being extremely unpopular. But I don't have issues with NLFs, me personally, if I was to rewrite how debating works.

I'm exactly the same on this 100%. I don't mention this much due to forum standards.

Though using it, will make Ajimu look 100% Omnipotent.

Well... eh... not really... Here's my view on this...

For an ability to work on someone infinitely above you, your ability needs to have a description of ignoring/bypassing durability, power, ect, like Enuma Elish and some of Gilgamesh's other weapons. For instance, Ajimu has All Fiction, which erases entire concepts from existence. Do I think it would work on LT? No. Why? Because All Fiction never had a statement of ignoring power, immortality, ect, nor does it have a feat of deleting someone stronger than the user, as opposed to Gilgamesh's abilities. I think All Fiction may work on someone stronger than Ajimu, but not infinityxinfinity ect ect stronger than her such as LT, since nothing implies her ability works at that level or ignores power levels.

Funny enough, I find VS Battles ripoffs calling CCC Gilgamesh multiversal, but call Enuma Elish "tier 0." So there are quite a few who agree, but are sadly VS Battles rip offs with their terrible tierring system.

For example, we have no idea if a Universe level reality warping in Verse A is more potent or not than a Multiverse level reality warping in Verse B by potency, just because it has less range. Which is often times a hole in Multiverse debating in general. One of the things why I'm sometimes aloof on the NLF witch hunt.

Well, I often associate range to power, as it should take more raw power and more reality warping effectiveness to cover a multiversal level of range as opposed to a universe level of range.

Basically in the end, I think special abilities can kill people infinitely above you only if said abilities have a description and or feat that would imply so (though I would never mention this in a standard debate due to reputation and witch hunting).

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#88 Edited by RikuYamaha (1476 posts) - - Show Bio

favorite anime/show?

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#89 Posted by ovy7 (2631 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam:

If your interpretation of Umineko is correct, based on your scans, which is largely popularized by those Russian Umineko fans, then I can only see the Infinite Infinites and Current Molecule Man putting a curb against them.

I get the feeling that I may know who you are talking about lol.

Anyway, I don't think the people behind the scans matter, just the info inside of the scans themselves. When I made that post like a month ago with all those scans, I've specified that you guys can interpret the scans however you wish to, which you apparently did, so I'm glad lol.

I too don't quite know how much to interpret those scans, as it can lead to extreme wank (I don't want that, honestly), so I'm currently waiting for Umineko Saku and WTC 5 hoping that Ryukishi would talk more about the complexity of his cosmology (and, from what I've got from the trailer, WTC 5 may be about the Human Domain).

I'm sorry if I'm giving two answers, but I'm used to discussing DC's self contradicting Cosmology which is why I talk to you about Umineko like this now.

No worries, it shows that you aren't biased or anything like that (like I would have been if someone would have asked the same question, for example).

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#90 Posted by deactivated-5c7e935d3a5a1 (302 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam Rothschild why you don't do CaV?

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#91 Edited by Sungsam (2858 posts) - - Show Bio

@darktowahreborn said:

@sungsam Rothschild why you don't do CaV?

Multiverse debates are abstract areas of battles, where interpretations of sources of feats can go many ways but all equally as valid. In Comics, Multiverse characters suffer from far more severe inconsistency and canonicity complexities and issues than say Spider Man or Batman.

CAVs are just not the best way to discuss the issues of Multiverse debating. And I am known for being this forum's most active poster boy of Multiverse debating for the Vine.

You can't just show a scan, that can be interpreted in many many many more ways than normal feats.

They often times require Pseudo-Philosophical and Pseudo-Scientific reasoning from both the WOG, debaters and 3rd sources like scientists interpretation of Quantum mechanics and Pseduo-scientific theories.

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#92 Posted by Cramem (62 posts) - - Show Bio

DC or Marvel, which one do you prefer?

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#94 Posted by Sebastian_Rommel (195 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: Which side do you support, allies or axis?

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#96 Posted by Supermanthor (15880 posts) - - Show Bio
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#98 Posted by Sungsam (2858 posts) - - Show Bio

@cramem said:

DC or Marvel, which one do you prefer?

Neither really.

@sungsam: Which side do you support, allies or axis?

Both are dissolved, so they don't matter. Neither.

@supermanthor said:

@sungsam: Yo just wanted to know how powerful is chaos king mikaboshi ?

He destroyed 98% of Marvel's Infinite-Dimensional Multiverse, though this was only because he was amped with absorbing Gods and would not scale for Oblivion.

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#99 Posted by Supermanthor (15880 posts) - - Show Bio
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#100 Posted by Sungsam (2858 posts) - - Show Bio