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#1 Edited by Sungsam (2911 posts) - - Show Bio

If you have anything to ask me, please post them and tag me here in this "Ask Me" thread of mine.

Many of my acquaintances and friends have been PM'ing me, asking me on my input on various subjects and issues concerning Multiversal fictions.

To publicize my views, and for people to understand my views better, (because several of you in fact ask me the same question) I made this thread.

I'm INCREDIBLY grateful and flattered that many have seeked my advice on many issues, but some questions tend to be asked by several PMers, so I would rather address it here, than on PM.

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#2 Edited by Sungsam (2911 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermanthor@tonystark6999@rijehu@thevoidofdeath

Some of you guys have frequently asked me about frequently asked questions like Beyonder vs Lucifer, so I made this thread. Just pop me back in here, and if I have time on this forum like I used to again, I will try to answer it.

Thanks

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#3 Edited by Supermanthor (16180 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: ok cool

my first question is celestials from marvel universal or multiversal ?

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#4 Edited by Sungsam (2911 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermanthor said:

@sungsam: ok cool

my first question is celestials from universal or multiversal ?

Celestials vary by individual power, with some negative anti-feat outliers placing them below possibly Universe level or around Universe level to high end Omniversal+. There are times where hundreds of them can be manipulated by mere cosmic cubes. And times where they are placed infinitely and infinitely above Cosmic Cubes that were outlierishly stated to transcend the Multiverse and destroyed Omniversal planes. It's kind of stupid really.

Scathan has a good questionable feat of overpowering Protege when he copied LT's powers, but we cannot scale other Celestials to him.

I don't know the answer because Celestials go up and down on their power scale because Marvel can't get their non sense together.

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#5 Posted by Supermanthor (16180 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: i see damn no one is safe from marvels inconsistency anyway thanks

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#6 Edited by Sungsam (2911 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermanthor said:

@sungsam: i see damn no one is safe from marvels inconsistency anyway thanks

I'll answer your other PM question

"another quiestion will gan beat beyonder and lucifer ?"

Eh.... Beyonder and Lucifer are complicated. difficult to judge, gauge and difficult to interpret type of characters.

But if we were to assume the most favorable interpretation for both, and the characters they would scale to, it would most probably end in a stalemate but Lucifer and Beyonder have considerable power to beat Gan however. Gan IMO, cannot take both on his own.

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#7 Posted by Supermanthor (16180 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: ok so can gan take them one on one ?

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#8 Edited by Sungsam (2911 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermanthor said:

@sungsam: ok so can gan take them one on one ?

I'm still trying to recall Dark Tower's cosmology, but from what I understand, now that I think of it, I don't think Gan can even really beat Beyonder or Lucifer (at high end interpretation) individually either. He might cause some harm and is probably hard to take down.

But Beyonder is larger than an Infinite Dimensional Multiverse. Lucifer scales to several Endless beings who have feats of pervading or destroying or containing DC's extremely large Composite Cosmology.

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#9 Posted by Supermanthor (16180 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: so if not gan who is the most character in fiction ?

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#10 Edited by Sungsam (2911 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermanthor said:

@sungsam: so if not gan who is the most character in fiction ?

The most powerful character in fiction is decided by the archetypal recognition of the most majority people on this planet. It's only in moronic battle boards we hear "OMNIPOTENCE NOT POSSIBLE IN FICTION" as such, any character confirmed Omnipotent is the strongest to me.

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#11 Posted by Supermanthor (16180 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam said:
@supermanthor said:

@sungsam: so if not gan who is the most character in fiction ?

The most powerful character in fiction is decided by the archetypal recognition of the most majority people on this planet. It's only in moronic battle boards we hear "OMNIPOTENCE NOT POSSIBLE IN FICTION" as such,

any character confirmed Omnipotent is the strongest to me.

hmm does any character actually confirmed omnipotent ?

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#12 Posted by Sungsam (2911 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam said:
@supermanthor said:

@sungsam: so if not gan who is the most character in fiction ?

The most powerful character in fiction is decided by the archetypal recognition of the most majority people on this planet. It's only in moronic battle boards we hear "OMNIPOTENCE NOT POSSIBLE IN FICTION" as such,

any character confirmed Omnipotent is the strongest to me.

hmm does any character actually confirmed omnipotent ?

Omnipotence is a mere power in imagination, not a character. You only need to bestow and properly apply it if you are competent enough (unlike Suggs Lionel) to apply it.

I can just say Johnny Arthur is Omnipotent, make a new character right here right now and call it Omnipotent.

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#13 Posted by Supermanthor (16180 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: ohh i see thanks for the answer

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#14 Posted by ovy7 (2645 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: Not battle board related. It has been like a month since I've asked the same thing (IIRC), so I'll do it again: How is your reading of Umineko going? Did you make a fav character? Did the battle boards spoiled things for you?

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#15 Edited by Sungsam (2911 posts) - - Show Bio

@ovy7 said:

@sungsam: Not battle board related. It has been like a month since I've asked the same thing (IIRC), so I'll do it again: How is your reading of Umineko going? Did you make a fav character? Did the battle boards spoiled things for you?

I only read up to EP III because Warhammer 40K had then been growing on me that I've shifted my reading focus to that instead and reading Horus Heresy novels. Not that I find Umineko less interesting, my focus interests in fictions and verses swings back and forth till I return to liking something primarily again.

Recently, I started rewatching episodes of Star Wars Clone Wars for example. I might most likely swing back to Umineko though. But I just switch and switch my focus readings on various franchises depending on my mood, half finish it then switch.

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#16 Edited by Thatoneguy2958 (152 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: you just started reading 40k? Lol. Woulda thought you had started reading it longer ago...

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#17 Posted by Sungsam (2911 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: you just started reading 40k? Lol. Woulda thought you had started reading it longer ago...

Longer ago, I was arguing against 40K Chaos Gods. Then got interest in the franchise recently like 1-2 months ago. Lol

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#18 Posted by Thatoneguy2958 (152 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: lmao. Just remember. Overall Warhammer lore, Khorne roflstomps. Just 40k, not so much.😉 Lol.

I'd also recommend reading the stories behind each of the characters in the codexes and the other stories in them along with some of the 40k books set in the 41st millennium. Fleshes out some stuff and gives a perspective of what current(40k) v back then (30k). I'm partial to gaunts ghosts.

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#19 Posted by Thekillerklok (9916 posts) - - Show Bio

Thoughts on the invisable dragon? what tier would that character be?

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#20 Edited by Sungsam (2911 posts) - - Show Bio

@thekillerklok said:

Thoughts on the invisable dragon? what tier would that character be?

Is that a character from a Korean light novel? What are its best feats? Is the verse it's from Multiversal?

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#21 Posted by Thekillerklok (9916 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: It's not all that long of a read.

https://ensjtrans.com/2016/05/28/invisible-dragon-chapters-1-9-20020725/

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#22 Posted by zgtfreak (1391 posts) - - Show Bio
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#23 Posted by Supermanthor (16180 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: if one above all before retcon and presence team and battle aginst umeniko creator and featherine who will win ?

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#25 Posted by Sungsam (2911 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: if one above all before retcon and presence team and battle aginst umeniko creator and featherine who will win ?

It would be a stalemate. Since all three are Omnipotent.

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#26 Posted by Supermanthor (16180 posts) - - Show Bio
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#27 Posted by SpareHeadOne (5868 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam:

When you see someone bending over, do have the urge to run up and kick them up the arse?

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#28 Edited by Sungsam (2911 posts) - - Show Bio

@spareheadone said:

@sungsam:

When you see someone bending over, do have the urge to run up and kick them up the arse?

Depends on the person. The only time that would happen (I think) is If I see a Muslim bending over with his face in the floor praying, who I know is a terrorist, I'll kick his ass. But only if that Bending person is a Muslim who is a real Radical Muslim.

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#29 Posted by SpareHeadOne (5868 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam:

Would you grab the praying guy by the scruff of his neck and thrust his face into the arse of the praying guy in front of him and then kick him up the arse thereby abusing two religious terrorists in one kick?

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#30 Posted by Goku_Stomps (202 posts) - - Show Bio

Can we be friends?

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#31 Posted by Supermanthor (16180 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: where do you rank hotu thanos ?

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#32 Edited by Sungsam (2911 posts) - - Show Bio

@spareheadone said:

@sungsam:

Would you grab the praying guy by the scruff of his neck and thrust his face into the arse of the praying guy in front of him and then kick him up the arse thereby abusing two religious terrorists in one kick?

I would, (if I had the physical power to do so) just beat both their asses with a baseball bat. Since it's more fun that way.

@goku_stomps said:

Can we be friends?

Literally everyone I know on this forum whom I'm on good terms with on many discussions are only at an acquaintance level relationship with me, with some bordering on text to text level internet friendship. All of whom I respect, and respect me. Not only because of shared belief, but also shared intellectual respectability. That's the closest thing anyone can get to becoming my friend on this forum. But never friends truly because I don't know any of them personally in real life.

You and I don't discuss much on many issues, and developing such a relationship with me on an internet text forum is kind of near impractical I'm afraid.

@supermanthor said:

@sungsam: where do you rank hotu thanos ?

He's currently just universe level since Starlin's retcon. Since all the abstracts that HOTU Thanos absorbed turned out to be just Universe level M-Bodies of the abstracts and not real High Multiversal entities.

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#33 Posted by WollfMyth209 (16225 posts) - - Show Bio

How are you?

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#34 Posted by mrmonster (14661 posts) - - Show Bio
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#35 Posted by Supermanthor (16180 posts) - - Show Bio
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#36 Posted by Supermanthor (16180 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: so hotu Thanos was multiversal before the retcon right ?

Also after this Starlin retcon does this make hotu Thanos less impressive ?

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#37 Posted by Sungsam (2911 posts) - - Show Bio

How are you?

Good. Good.

@sungsam: Favorite horror movie?

IT.

@sungsam: so hotu Thanos was multiversal before the retcon right ?

Also after this Starlin retcon does this make hotu Thanos less impressive ?

HOTU Thanos was Multiversal VIA absorbing multiple Multiversal beings. But Starlin retconned it so that the abstracts that Thanos stomped were just M-Bodies and not the real deal.

So yes, after Starlin retcon, HOTU Thanos is seemingly less impressive. Much less.

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#38 Posted by Supermanthor (16180 posts) - - Show Bio
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#39 Posted by SpareHeadOne (5868 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam:

Would you put the baseball bat in one guys hands and use him to crack the other guy in the head And then when they are knocked out would you stick the first guys nose in the other guys arse crack so he gets an incredible shock when he wakes up?

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#40 Edited by zgtfreak (1391 posts) - - Show Bio

Yo, since I don't read comics, I only know of Pre-recton Beyonder's general power level, but I was wondering... Do you think there is anyone in Umineko aside from Aurora who can take on a high-end interpretation of Beyonder (I don't mean the omnipotent acting dumb interpretation), and if not high-end, could they take on a mid or low-balled Pre-rec?

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#41 Edited by Sungsam (2911 posts) - - Show Bio
@zgtfreak said:

Yo, since I don't read comics, I only know of Pre-recton Beyonder's general power level, but I was wondering... Do you think there is anyone in Umineko aside from Aurora who can take on a high-end interpretation of Beyonder (I don't mean the omnipotent acting dumb interpretation), and if not high-end, could they take on a mid or low-balled Pre-rec?

The strongest we can make Beyonder is the highballing interpretations from the following.

A. That the Beyond Realm is 26,640,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times larger than an Infinite Dimensional Multiverse and its Abstracts and denizens like Molecule Man, Living Tribunal and Eternity because it is stated that the Marvel Multiverse was just a droplet to an ocean for Beyonder.

B. Next is that the power difference between Molecule Man (who was stronger than Eternity and LT who was already Infinite-D Abstracts during Secret Wars. Take note that LT and Eternity both bowed to MM at Secret Waars) and Beyonder is the same difference between Molecule Man and Captain America which was stated by MM on panel. Many debaters do not agree with this statement because MM and Beyonder seemingly stalemated one another, while others say that Beyonder was just holding back.

But if MM was correct, that would mean that Beyonder is several infinitexinfinitexinfinite....etc. and eternia times more powerful than MM who was more powerful than Living Tribunal who was more powerful an Infinite-D abstract like Eternity who already embodied Marvel's Infinite-D Multiverse at the time.

Since the stated power difference multiplied between a 3Dmensional Captain America and an above-Infinite-D+ Molecule Man is the same number of times that Beyonder was stronger than Molecule Man and that's insane since Beyonder makes Infinite-D+ stronger than LT and Eternity characters look like infinitesimal 3D beings compared to himself if what MM is saying is true.

This is the reason why many Beyonder critics hate that scan of MM saying that Beyonder was that strong. And often times counter the scaling method with Beyonder's shortings. It makes Beyonder look extremely overpowered.

Beyonder fans like to rationalize it while Beyonder critics hate rationalizing it. Me personally, I just see Beyonder's entire story as one big giant plot induced stupidity that renders Beyonder too controversial to exactly pinpoint.

C. Beyonder stated that the Marvel Multiverse was a microbe indistinguishable from his imagination. That it can all disappear at his imaginary whim. It's kind of weird for him to say that IMO due to Beyonder's shortings, but he did say that.

That said, from scaling method B, it's very difficult for me to find an entity who can really rival Beyonder that is not Featherine.

There are a few more, I read Secret Wars. The thing is, you can counter several of these with contradicting statements as to how powerful Beyonder is and it does change. But you did ask for the Highball versions where we just ignore all the stupid outliers that Beyonder has been through.

Also, that Beyonder gets to scale to all Post-Secret Wars feats of Living Tribunal which is a controversial issue. Guys like Kilgpmtkra tend to be conservative on that issue, others are like the former member here death2heretics doesn't see a problem with it. I personally don't have an issue on either account because LT and Eternity were not so prominent at that point, Eternity was in fact stated to embody the Multivese in Secret Wars and was still stated to be below LT in power.

ON OTHER BEYONDER INTERPRETATIONS

What I would consider a normally midballed Beyonder (others disagree) is agreeing with the certain estimation that he is only a million times more powerful than Infinite-D. So he is equal to the power of, if we get 1 million numbers of Infinite-D beings.

I think Battler and Ange could take on normally interpreted 1 MillionXInfinite-D Beyonder though from what I hear from your scaling methods.

A lowballed Beyonder is sometimes just Baseline Multiversal for those who don't believe in Dimensional tiering around here. Or just Baseline Infinite-D since Beyonder was called Infinite-D (another contradicting statement to other power level estimations). Which I think even WH40K Chaos Gods can take on like Khorne in the Warp.

Take note that I don't like arguing for Cosmic Comic characters anymore. Nowadays I just like to explain the context and analysis of a writer's intent and their mistakes when writing these characters.

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#42 Posted by TonyStark6999 (2256 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: Is Lucifer above the concepts of Infinity?

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#43 Posted by Supermanthor (16180 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: with the 5d imp question in other thread

Another question pops my head are there millions of beyonders exist outside known marvel multiverse which only 3 of them we saw in hickmans secret wars ?

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#44 Edited by Sungsam (2911 posts) - - Show Bio

@tonystark6999 said:

@sungsam: Is Lucifer above the concepts of Infinity?

He stated that the concept of Infinity, Space and Time are just extensions of will and means nothing to him. So perhaps so.

@supermanthor said:

@sungsam: with the 5d imp question in other thread

Another question pops my head are there millions of beyonders exist outside known marvel multiverse which only 3 of them we saw in hickmans secret wars ?

Not sure, I'm not sure how many Beyonders there are, nor their average power levels. But it is presumed that they're all average equal to the ones we see in Hickman's SW. It's never been stated how many Beyonders there are.

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#45 Posted by TonyStark6999 (2256 posts) - - Show Bio
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#46 Edited by Supermanthor (16180 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: we can consider beyonders as a species right rather than abstracts ? Right ?

Also where do you put the beyonders in powerlevel universal or multiversal ?

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#47 Posted by Sungsam (2911 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: we can consider beyonders as a species right rather than abstracts ? Right ?

Also where do you put the beyonders in powerlevel universal or multiversal ?

They're a species of abstracts more like.

I typically put the Beyonders on Multiverse level. Since you know, they defeated the abstracts of Marvel.

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#48 Posted by Supermanthor (16180 posts) - - Show Bio
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#49 Edited by zgtfreak (1391 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: I see... Well for a mid-balled Beyonder that you said Battler and Ange could take on, it depends on how much you consider a Voyager to be beyond infinite-D and how much you consider Ange to be above them, and then how much you consider Battler to be above Ange.

To give you an idea on Battler and Ange...

Spoilers ahead, but I assume everyone knows how the final battle plays out.

We know that EoS Ascended Game Master Battler borderline crippled Bernkastel with two attacks to the point Bernkastel begged Aurora for help.

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Aurora sends in her Overlord Cats to attack Battler, merely to somewhat appeal to Bern's request for help. Battler proceeds to no-sell their attacks via Endless Nine.

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CONTRARY to popular belief... Ascended Game Master Battler is FAR superior to WoR Ange in every way. In the end, he threw the fight and let Bernkastel kill him so he could teach Ange the truth, and it worked. People however never think of the context of the fight and think Bern just happened to pull out a win.

We even see that after Ange revives Battler after learning the truth, he seems ready and willing to just flat out body Bernkastel since he has no reason to hold back and throw the fight anymore, since Ange learned what Battler was trying to teach her.

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Sadly, WoR Ange is the one who defeats Bern while Battler decides to simply watch.

So how could Battler defeat Bernkastel? The same way WoR Ange did, aka via Endless Nine and the Golden Truth. Battler's Endless Nine and Golden Truth operate on a far higher level than WoR Ange's, as he has far more raw power than her (is above Voyagers in raw power while Ange is only above Voyagers via Endless Nine and Golden Truth, not in raw power), and the fact that he is the Game Master while Ange is not. We've seen Battler use the Golden Truth multiple times in the past as well, so he DOES have this ability along with Endless Nine, and he had both before Ange.

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As for WoR Ange defeating Bernkastel, despite not being on the same or above the raw power level of a Voyager unlike Battler, her abilities are stronger than Voyagers by far, just not as strong as Battler's versions of the same abilities.

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^ Would just like to note that Battler's Endless Nine wouldn't of even let that wedge pierce him at all.

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So overall, I'd say it depends on how much higher are Voyagers beyond infinite-D and how much higher is Ascended Game Master Battler compared to Voyagers and WoR Ange. I think Battler may be on mid-balled Beyonders level, but I am not sure about WoR Ange.

Thanks for the info on Beyonder, and tell me if you have any thoughts.

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#50 Posted by Supermanthor (16180 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: is phantom stranger from above multiversal ?

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