Student Debt, the solution. Is it that Simple?

In Europe, the cost of studies is largely borne by the States. Young people who complete their studies are generally not in debt. When they find work in the United States, they have a better standard of living than Americans with the same skills, because for equal pay they do not bear the debt burden. And the longer the university course, the greater the difference.

With what jobs ? People have been leaving college and not finding any success in their chosen field for like a decade now

@catlike: No doesn't necessarily mean you shouldn't have to pay back your debt, just that its more complicated than simply paying it back.

Isn't it mainly a 'murican thing?

Don't remind me.

@lunacyde: It's just that you folks tend to do a lot of things ... umm ... in your own ways.

@lunacyde: OH.. Alright.

Don't lump me in with them. I was just born here.

@lunacyde:

No. The easiest way to fix this would be to simply start having the same laws about student loans that we already have for any other kind of loan.

If you're applying for a loan to buy a house, or a car, or to start a business, lenders can't just give you whatever you ask for and send you home with a massive loan you have no chance of paying back. There are laws that require lenders to go through your financials to make sure they're not giving you a completely unreasonable loan that you're inevitably going to default on.

But if you're applying for student loans, it's basically as simple as signing a piece of paper. Which makes even less sense when you keep in mind that unlike a home loan or a car loan, where there's obvious forms of collateral (the house and the car), a student loan has no comparable form of collateral.

I think one of the biggest problems is that when People graduate and have these Massive Amounts of Loans they tend not to Find work in their Particular Field and it makes it Harder to pay off Tens of Thousands of Dollars in Student Loans. So that would be a No for me.

Can’t speak for other parts of the world, but nothin’ here in the good ol’ U-S-of A is simple when large quantities of money is involved. At least not for most, unless you’re fortunate to come from money at least

Imagine the healthcare where people die with massive bills

No, how many people even think in these ridiculous terms anyway?

From all the experiences I've heard and what else I know, coming out of high school, people have fairly limited opportunities outside of going to college and those who don't go immediately after high school often go sometime later in life, because of how much importance is placed on a degree by some people. So even if they don't have the money to pay it, some people are practically forced by convenience to go to college, even if it will put them in debt till the day they die.

The only easy solutions I can think of involve unreasonable actions or assumptions, like giving everyone scholarships, a large majority of people taking "strike" against going to college campuses to make them lower their prices, or people getting more money easier from new jobs made for that specific purpose. But I very seriously doubt that you can stop too many people in high places from getting what they want without having the proper support.

No, how many people even think in these ridiculous terms anyway?

More than you would think, in my experience. I can't tell you how many people have told me this or I've witnessed telling other people this.

Usualy its boomers who are super out of touch with the cost of college and the pressures of preparing for the job market this millenium.

if you can't pay it back, then don't borrow it in the first place.

@lunacyde: "Don't lump me in with them." Trust me we don't.

@kgb725: You're right about this one, almost everyone I know of that finished off their degree fall under what you mentioned. Plus with covid-19 affecting almost everything the value of a degree has gone down & less desirable.

I think we're finally letting in a handful of international students in groups now to help fill the contribution they bring into universities here in New Zealand.

@reaperthegrim: I wish I thought about this when I was younger zzz, slowly but surely it is lessoning.

It was a joke :P The Insufferable and I banter, its what we do.

To be serious for a moment, I'm actually very proud to be an American and love this country very much. Doesn't mean I am going to, or have to agree with everything that is done in this country.

Should someone have to live the rest of their lives shackled to debt because of one mistake they made when they were 18 years old? To be clear, I am not advocating for debt to just be erased outright. I am talking about setting a process in place where students can reasonably pay back what they owe without entering a lifetime of uncontrollable debt that they will not be able to pay off by the time they die.

That notwithstanding, student debt has gotten to the point it doesn't just effect those who owe it. It is a drag on the economy and it effects everyone. There is a mountain of evidence to support the notion that the health of the economy is inversely related to student debt and that student debt suppresses consumer spending and damages the long-term purchasing power of those who drive the economy. not only that, but student debt limits upward mobility and the ability to invest in oneself and get to the point where they would be able to pay off their debt. It is only going to get worse from here if measures are not taken to address the issue.

Whether you like it or not, "just don't borrow it in the first place" is not a solution. It is a rhetorical device made to make you feel better about yourself by tearing others down. We need to address this issue for the sake of society and the long-term health of our economy. Now, a real solution may be pushing education in schools that undoes decades of damage in promoting college at all costs. This, combined with reform in paying back student loans, reform in higher education financing, encouraging trade schools and other career alternatives, changing narratives and social stigmas about not going to college, changing employer expectations about employee education and simply making higher education of all kinds more affordable may be able to make a difference. But that would require dedicating ourselves to finding solutions instead of blaming others to make ourselves feel better.

Most social, political, and economic issues are complex; boiling it all down to simple solutions makes for convenient talking points but impractical realities. I’m not quite sure how I’d go about fixing things, but it’s clear the American approach is failing. With the prices of tuition these days, without borrowing, the only people who’d be able to afford to go to college would be the well-off. Not nearly enough scholarships around to get everyone else to college that needs to go.

The sad part is that some people completely choose to ignore the interconnectedness of this issue. Even if it doesn't apply to you directly it will effect you if we don't have enough doctors, nurses, teachers, engineers, physical therapists, software engineers, etc because they can't afford the required education, that hurts society. If a generation of educated citizens are strapped by student loans that affects everyone.

@leonhardt: I wasn't directing the "you" at you lol...to be clear.

It's an issue that's intertwined with matters like institutionalized discrimination/racism, employment discrimination, employee rights, some creating mode of second guessing judgements, especially non-precedential decisions, that go against plaintiffs, including US Supreme Court decisions, Congressional budgeting, etc. Solving those problems by updating these laws and regulations with a goal of overhauling all employment laws (e.g. to include or recategorizing all labels for discrimination to it being based on looks, although several factors should remain as a vehicle for deciding a discrimination case) and libel related laws is a good, obvious solution; there's no chance that people are actually avoiding jobs, just a case where the application process could use long overdue regulations; some of these suggestions have been pretty obvious for quite sometime now, it's just a case of justice catching up and making it increasingly difficult to continue these unfair and evil practices by largely ignoring them; that you start to face trouble because you're being unjust and unfair just simply isn't a growing crisis.

It's sad that some people want to complicate what should be simple common sense. Words like responsibility and honor have lost any meaning these days. Educate people and reform what you want but there should not be any forgiveness. I shouldn't have to pay your debt just like I wouldn't expect any to pay mine.

Short term solution for already existing problems - pay it back

Long term solution in general - don't take a loan in the first place.

So, would you say that's a longer term solution for formers who eventually seek out economic aid, as well? Surely, that was the longer term solution back this time in 2008 for Wall Street, right? In many cases life takes a turn for a student who has graduated, obtained their career, but weren't expecting or didn't foresee how their managers and bosses were going to treat them or turn out to be (e.g. this is that point where you can imagine a 12 year, their outlook, they've seen X-Men, and they then raising to fulfill their fantasy about real life that's actually cruel)? Or, do you just not understand the problem that well, at all (e.g. the Bible anticipates these sorts of problem)?

The problem were are talking about here is debt, right?

Debt is resolve by paying it. That is the solution.

If currently you have a debt problem, you can be free from it by paying it.

The long term solution, of course, is to not get into anymore debt/loan contract (aka problem prevention).

Otherwise you will end up with the same debt problem again.

Now whatever economic or financial predicament that forces you to take a loan is an entirely different problem.

And in most situation that is a complex discussion.

"Affordability" of something (education, health plan, housing, etc) is completely arbitrary.

(It varies from person to person, degrees/courses , illness/medical treatment, types/location of house, etc).

No, I understood you, lol. You're all good. I agree with a lot of the points you've made in this thread. I'd be in favor of more radical solutions than yourself, but at least we agree on the issues it seems.

As you say, it's a very interconnected issue, as most issues of this nature are. The whole "just pay it back" or "don't borrow in the first place" just serve to shift blame for a systemic problem onto individuals, who aren't responsible for the high cost of tuition in the first place. Nevertheless, we do want people in our society to be able to pursue higher education; everyone would suffer if less people were able to go. College doesn't have to be the be all end all, but it is a significant way for people to try to improve their lots in life for better economic opportunities.

@reaperthegrim:

According to google, the average American school loan is around 35K, for the enlightened intellectuals that attend these waste of time universities, that much debt should hardly be a lifelong issue,

This is a very limited perspective you have here. Whether 35k is a lot to pay back depends on how much income you make and cashflow you have. Not to mention, interest rates will increase that amount yearly.

It would be pretty easy to go into default on loans for things outside of the individual's control. A bad economy making jobs in a field less available, oversaturation of the job market in a particular field, or trying to keep up with other bills (think emergency medical bills, etc). If a person can't afford to make substantial payments each month, the debt will drag on for quite some time or go into default.

Also, it's possible for people even in "lucrative" educational paths (lawyers, doctors, etc.) to have those same problems with finding a job or winding up in nonlucrative positions, thus being unable to pay back massive debts.

If you can't get a job 'worthy' of your diploma, then put your head down and suffer through some blue-collar work for a few years and learn some humility about thinking before you take other peoples money.

Also, it's just kind of funny how much contempt you seem to have for university grads. Either that, or you have a complex where you think they all look down on you or something.

I'm talking about circumstances that will inevitably be out of your (e.g. an excellent university student's) control in the future leading to debt (e.g. such is no different from the financial crisis in 2008, except we're talking about bare essentials in relation to student debt and seeing how many times the Dow can each a record high, in the other situation; currently such appears to be the Feds only purpose; a panic might be approaching at a point where the Dow was driven back to 5000, but, not really to react to it like what happened since this time at the end of 2008); going by things that you said, you clearly don't appear to be aware that a person with student loan debt can be different that what your statements suggests, which seems to be rooted in stereotyping (e.g. the US Congress wastes money in many ways other than helping to poor with a hand up, which rarely happens; thus, helping the poor clearly isn't what's at the root of your concerns, if it's the debt celling).

@dshipp17:

Well, I never knew that "helping the poor" is the primary concern of this discussion.

The OP never seems to imply that it is so.

I thought this is all about how to resolve a debt problem (paying it is the best way to do that, defaulting on it is another but that would lead to some unwanted consequences both for the lender and the one who took the loan)

Any person (rich or poor) may find themselves with debt problem.

It's not like only poor people have the option to borrow money.

Naturally no, its not that simple. Here are some variables that increase the complexity. Peoples learned knowledge and understanding VS intuition and "common sense", and perceptions. Peoples natural inability to deal and understand large and inherently complicated issues, but a tendency to assume they can, and thus oversimplify, draw bad comparisons/parallels, and overlook important issues. Politics, and politics that often politicise such issues, pander to some, polarise for others. Sensitivity, projection etc.

Like I go on this a lot, but socioeconomic mobility is relevant to this discussion, because if you are an individual born and raised on the idea, you will succeed if you just try hard enough and work hard enough, then the idea of some people who just don't want to work, are lazy, are looking to leech of the back of hard workers, and society, and the idea of people who who are disciplined, hard working, sweat and bleed for the good of themselves, and their family and society, and are just responsible people, is... just a factual dynamic. Except "we" know this is not just a gross over simplification but very inaccurate. There are all sorts of factors and variables out of a persons control and agency (and often their knowledge and understanding) that has much more influence and determination of that individuals success, including their parents lives/class variables, opportunities, education so on.

Also, thats not a simple all purpose fact and rule for absolutely everyone, and this is something else, humans often struggle with, but nuance and complexity (and statistics in general) can be hard to consider, we often default to a more black and white binary understanding. As in "well Oprah was poor and is now rich, so anyone can be rich". Exception to the rule, a rare one, and some variables that are overlooked that actually can benefit people in ways. Never mind that there is incentive for people with wealth, power and influence, who benefit off the idea, that the majority of people believe falsely that they can be as rich, powerful and famous, if they work hard enough... because the majority thinking that, in many cases contributes to how wealthy and influential they can be. Which means you end up with unemployed adults, between jobs, struggling to make it, stanning for rich celebrities with a minimum amount of charisma, and being anti-poor, self depreciating, bitter and resentful towards other people in their situation... because eventually they are going to be rich somehow... or succumbing to guilt that they just didn't try hard enough. Or the people who are doing okay, who have similar attitudes and assumptions about the poor.

"Just don't take a loan or debt" has the same energy as "well just eat food" if you are starving, "try and not get sick" if you can't pay for medicine, "my parents smacked me and I was fine" etc etc

Incidentally, a lot of people don't realise that a lot of the things they enjoy, like fictional stories, video games, comics, movies, tv, music, often come from people, who at various times, been the recipient of policies that times before we politicised. Or that, actually, if you encouraged more people to study and learn, you, personally will likely see benefits, in your life time. The consequences you view as a negative exist for other reasons. Health benefits is another. We often know this from looking at the past and making comparisons with other countries.

Even my own post is oversimplified, over generalised, and glosses over important issues, but if I could sum it up, I would say... try and not vilify the other tribe. Even if you think they vilify you. Try and not be short sighted.

@theinsufferable said:

@lunacyde:

communist.

@harrynorine: No u

Don't be so terrified. It's not all so bad. We're not the first and we won't be the last. We'll manage somehow. Of course there is a lot of competition, but the issue has to be solved somehow. I'm not saying that reform is bad. I'm saying that, strange as it may seem, everything depends on us and our choice. And our stance on life. We all have to decide for ourselves. This problem does not go unnoticed by the state. We will definitely get help.

Confronting college campuses might have some effect. Maybe not right away, but not impossible. But every loan has an initial price, and there's no getting around that. It is possible, though, that the price may be lowered. In general, I agree that life is a struggle. With some systematic confrontation, success is possible.

The state should reimburse all tuition costs for successful students. It would only benefit from that. I believe that this is the future. Especially since there are enough examples of this in the world. This does not mean that it is necessary to give out state credits uncontrollably. But I am more than sure that there is a great number of worthy students for such loans.

I don't believe so, but that's all I'm willing to say.

I think the state should take care of students unless the college is private. Good that there is a dissertation writing service that helps students with homework and, by the way, relatively cheap, like this one https://edubirdie.com/cheap-dissertation-writing-services. I wouldn't say I like to make such a choice, but I prefer to pay not for the university but the homework because it is more profitable. After all, you have a lot of free time to use for what you need.

Pay it back, but of course you can hate that the institutions have brain washed society to believe you cannot succeed or be smart in general without attending...

I think it really depends on the degree. I think that if you get a degree in a vital industry like mechanics or a medical degree for example, the state should pay it off. If it's a degree like an art or history degree, I think you should have to pay it off.

I am studying history at university btw.