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#151 Posted by Cable_Extreme (16670 posts) - - Show Bio

@lunacyde: I do know about history, Christopher Columbus came to the Central America. He is the reason so many indigenous suffering under Tyranny were eventually freed and given democracy and rights. It is a pretty far stretch to blame Christopher Collumbus for problems in North America and Canada.

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#152 Posted by jashro44 (49367 posts) - - Show Bio

@lunacyde: I do know about history, Christopher Columbus came to the Central America. He is the reason so many indigenous suffering under Tyranny were eventually freed and given democracy and rights. It is a pretty far stretch to blame Christopher Collumbus for problems in North America and Canada.

Canada is apart of North America. North America is a continent. Also Christopher Columbus freed them from tyranny?

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#153 Posted by Lunacyde (27464 posts) - - Show Bio

@cable_extreme: A gross overgeneralization, many native tribes, including those in Central America had more liberty and Democratic values than their European counterparts.

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#154 Posted by Cable_Extreme (16670 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:
@cable_extreme said:

@lunacyde: I do know about history, Christopher Columbus came to the Central America. He is the reason so many indigenous suffering under Tyranny were eventually freed and given democracy and rights. It is a pretty far stretch to blame Christopher Collumbus for problems in North America and Canada.

Canada is apart of North America. North America is a continent. Also Christopher Columbus freed them from tyranny?

Technicalities, I introduced an article explaining it in a past post. Many people were under the tyrannic control of the Meshika. As a direct result of Columbus stummbling on the new world, the Spaniards came and liberated them from their intense oppression.

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#155 Edited by Cable_Extreme (16670 posts) - - Show Bio

@lunacyde said:

@cable_extreme: A gross overgeneralization, many native tribes, including those in Central America had more liberty and Democratic values than their European counterparts.

Perhaps in totality, but can't ignore the good and only focus on the bad.

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#156 Posted by Emperordmb (1959 posts) - - Show Bio

@lunacyde: Kinda like how it's a gross misrepresentation to call Valentine's day, Christmas, and Easter white people holidays?

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#157 Posted by FitnessTribesman13 (1590 posts) - - Show Bio

@fitnesstribesman13:

Greeks, Romans, France, Mongolians etc... Even Natives stole land from each other. It is human nature.

If you think I'm claiming it wasn't common for other cultures outside of the Americas to wrongfully take land by force, then you are wasting your time. I don't care who's doing the land theft. The point is that it's wrong. It's not just human nature, it's a human problem that still occurs to this day.

So you are part of the natives in central America?

Central America usually refers to countries between Guatemala and Panama, so no, I'm not from Central America. I told you I'm of Mexican heritage.

My ancestry isn't distant, my native american ancestry is sort of. My grandfather was half Cherokee, and my mom is a quarter. Not exactly distant. A lot of reservations require around a 1/16 blood quantum, being 1/8th I could live there, especially since I have cousins and aunt and uncles in the Crushatta tribe around Livingston Texas. I'm not all that distant and I am allowed my own mind.

No Caption Provided

^ You must also consider that being considered Native American is more than just blood quantum/racial ancestry. There's the cultural side of it. Now, I have no issues with considering you Native American. That's because I believe cultural aspects, participation and contributions to Native American communities are more vital in being considered Native American than blood quantum.

We are talking about Columbus day in the U.S.

As far as I'm concerned, we don't have to limit ourselves to just the US of A in this kind of discussion.

I'm not, I said everyone has issues. Native American issues aren't more special than other minority issues.

Neither did I claim Native Americans issues were more special as if they're the only victims, so that's irrelevant to mention. Then again, there are definitely issues in Native American communities that are distinct from other minorities in severity or uniqueness. Plus, Native American issues are more relevant to our discussion, so that furthers how irrelevant that is.

Referring to Columbus in the past, not central America now.

Your responses weren't entirely devoted to Columbus in the past and mine weren't entirely devoted to Central America now, so I beg to differ.

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#158 Edited by FitnessTribesman13 (1590 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperordmb said:

@lunacyde: Kinda like how it's a gross misrepresentation to call Valentine's day, Christmas, and Easter white people holidays?

To be fair, they originate from and are based on European culture, and European is a proper, fancier way of saying "White folks/culture."

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#159 Edited by FitnessTribesman13 (1590 posts) - - Show Bio

@cable_extreme said:
@jashro44 said:
@cable_extreme said:

@lunacyde: I do know about history, Christopher Columbus came to the Central America. He is the reason so many indigenous suffering under Tyranny were eventually freed and given democracy and rights. It is a pretty far stretch to blame Christopher Collumbus for problems in North America and Canada.

Canada is apart of North America. North America is a continent. Also Christopher Columbus freed them from tyranny?

Technicalities, I introduced an article explaining it in a past post. Many people were under the tyrannic control of the Meshika. As a direct result of Columbus stummbling on the new world, the Spaniards came and liberated them from their intense oppression.

They sho' did, I mean it's not like the Spanish conquistadores and leaders considered Native American inferior, thus stripping them of civil liberties, placed them in all sorts of slavery, forced them to assimilate (AKA "Cultural Genocide"), were known to frequently sexually assault Native American children and women, tortured them, suffered from foreign illnesses, and whatnot. Not tyrannical at all...

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#160 Edited by Cable_Extreme (16670 posts) - - Show Bio

@fitnesstribesman13:

If you think I'm claiming it wasn't common for other cultures outside of the Americas to wrongfully take land by force, then you are wasting your time. I don't care who's doing the land theft. The point is that it's wrong. It's not just human nature, it's a human problem that still occurs to this day.

It is human nature because it is shown throughout history. People in power take over weaker people, it isn't really good or bad as it solely depends on the side your are on. I'm glad we have the United States, i wouldn't have it any other way.

Central America usually refers to countries between Guatemala and Panama, so no, I'm not from Central America. I told you I'm of Mexican heritage.

Forgive me, I've never heard of indigenous Mexican heritage so Im just interested to learn more. Where you part of native american tribe in Mexico?

^ You must also consider that being considered Native American is more than just blood quantum/racial ancestry. There's the cultural side of it. Now, I have no issues with considering you Native American. That's because I believe cultural aspects, participation and contributions to Native American communities are more vital in being considered Native American than blood quantum.

I wouldn't call myself native American. I mean i pass as a full blood Irish which is what i would be if I didn't have a cherokee great grandmother. I do however have ties such as family on reservations in Texas whom i go visit time to time. My uncle has taught me traditional bead work, and leather curing and such. Pretty interesting.

But I'm more Irish heritage than Native American. By 7/8ths.

As far as I'm concerned, we don't have to limit ourselves to just the US of A in this kind of discussion.

We celebrate Columbus for starting the interest in north america, he is the reason US exist today. When we say our pledge or sing our anthem, we aren't singing because many of Americans killed native Americans, we look at other things like defiantly signing the declaration of independence, or emancipation proclamation. Making America better through sacrifice. Same is the case with Columbus. everyone back then, especially people from Europe acted in the manner he acted in. He wasn't a specifically bad apple, he was just a part of how the world was at the time.

We are extremely civilized in comparison, we have technologies, healthcare, education (For all) which helps avoid normalcy for immoral things.

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#161 Edited by Cable_Extreme (16670 posts) - - Show Bio

@cable_extreme said:
@jashro44 said:
@cable_extreme said:

@lunacyde: I do know about history, Christopher Columbus came to the Central America. He is the reason so many indigenous suffering under Tyranny were eventually freed and given democracy and rights. It is a pretty far stretch to blame Christopher Collumbus for problems in North America and Canada.

Canada is apart of North America. North America is a continent. Also Christopher Columbus freed them from tyranny?

Technicalities, I introduced an article explaining it in a past post. Many people were under the tyrannic control of the Meshika. As a direct result of Columbus stummbling on the new world, the Spaniards came and liberated them from their intense oppression.

They sho' did, I mean it's not like the Spanish conquistadores and leaders considered Native American inferior, thus stripping them of civil liberties, placed them in all sorts of slavery, forced them to assimilate (AKA "Cultural Genocide"), were known to frequently sexually assault Native American children and women, tortured them, suffered from foreign illnesses, and whatnot. Not tyrannical at all...

Verses decapitating thousands of innocent people as their heads bounced down steps. Current estimations about 20,000 per years....

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#162 Edited by Emperordmb (1959 posts) - - Show Bio
@fitnesstribesman13 said:
@emperordmb said:

@lunacyde: Kinda like how it's a gross misrepresentation to call Valentine's day, Christmas, and Easter white people holidays?

To be fair, they originate from and are based on European culture, and European is a proper, fancier way of saying "White folks/culture."

Culture is not the same as race. Culture is something of actual substance upon which society is built, and cultural values help society at large embrace principles for collective and individual benefit, and some cultures are better than other cultures, western culture for example kicks the crap out of say... the actual rape culture they have in the middle east. The reason Jews and Asians are so successful in America is not because of either racial superiority or systematic racial privilege, but because their cultural values are conducive to success. Race is not culture, skin color has no tangible value and there is no merit or worth to having white, black, brown, yellow, or whatever color skin, and unlike culture where there are blatantly better and worse cultures, such judgments cannot and should not be made about race.

Regardless of whatever correlation exists between race and culture, they are not the same thing. Values, ideas, traditions, and ways of living are not inextricably linked to skin color, and to value or celebrate culture is not the same thing as to value or celebrate race.

To say there is no distinction to be drawn between culture and race is to play right into the alt-right's hands, because to say that race and culture are inextricably linked is to either say that all cultures are equal or that different races are not equal, both of which are intellectually and morally bankrupt notions, since cultural relativism is to deny moral judgment and the blatant fact that some cultural values are more conducive to prosperity than others, and since racism is immoral and cannot rest on a sound moral basis.

So once again, a celebration of cultureis not the same thing as a celebration of race.

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#163 Posted by FitnessTribesman13 (1590 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperordmb: I do differentiate between race and culture. You could see that in my responses to Cable.

Anyways, I can see why they might call it "white people holidays," since they arose from White/European culture. BTW, there are folks who use "European" as a racial synonym for "White," including myself to a certain extent.

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#164 Posted by Emperordmb (1959 posts) - - Show Bio

@fitnesstribesman13: Well yeah, on the basis of differentiation between race and culture though, I reject the argument for the necessity or validity of a racial holiday on the basis that there are white racial holidays, since none of those holidays though stemming from a culture more historically participated in by white people are actually racial holidays.

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#165 Edited by FitnessTribesman13 (1590 posts) - - Show Bio

@cable_extreme said:

@fitnesstribesman13:

It is human nature because it is shown throughout history. People in power take over weaker people, it isn't really good or bad as it solely depends on the side your are on. I'm glad we have the United States, i wouldn't have it any other way.

And at the same time, colonization is generally immoralized nowadays. I don't know how you can say it's neither good or bad when it leads to the suffering and devastation of entire races. Much like almost nobody's going to claim the Holocaust in a "isn't really good or bad" situation. I mean, they simply don't conform to common moral standards.

Forgive me, I've never heard of indigenous Mexican heritage so Im just interested to learn more. Where you part of native american tribe in Mexico?

It's all good. I descend from the Purepecha from Michoacan and possibly Taino (from Puerto Rico - I'm partly Puerto Rican as well). However, I don't consider myself Purepecha or Taino. I just consider myself Mexican/Puerto Rican-American. Nevertheless, Mexican culture should be considered a part of the Native American race when you consider how heavily influenced it is by indigenous Mexicans. Hell, the "Mexican" label is based on what the Aztecs really called themselves: Mexica/Meshika. Puerto Rican culture has Native American Taino influences as well and some Puerto Ricans refer to themselves as "Boriken" which is a Taino label for the inhabitants of Borikua, another name for Puerto Rico.

I wouldn't call myself native American. I mean i pass as a full blood Irish which is what i would be if I didn't have a cherokee great grandmother. I do however have ties such as family on reservations in Texas whom i go visit time to time. My uncle has taught me traditional bead work, and leather curing and such. Pretty interesting.

But I'm more Irish heritage than Native American. By 7/8ths.

Fair enough then, but since you don't embrace the identity, you won't be considered as such now. Not a problem though.

We celebrate Columbus for starting the interest in north america, he is the reason US exist today. When we say our pledge or sing our anthem, we aren't singing because many of Americans killed native Americans, we look at other things like defiantly signing the declaration of independence, or emancipation proclamation. Making America better through sacrifice. Same is the case with Columbus. everyone back then, especially people from Europe acted in the manner he acted in. He wasn't a specifically bad apple, he was just a part of how the world was at the time.

We are extremely civilized in comparison, we have technologies, healthcare, education (For all) which helps avoid normalcy for immoral things.

Actually, Columbus was even considered exceptionally vile by other Europeans at the time. I know United Statians don't always necessarily take pride in the horrendous fate of Native Americans. However, I cannot and find it ridiculous to think Native Americans should forgive the US government and the original settlers for causing the fate of Native Americans, which is still ongoing.

Therefore, I believe it is time for us to gain our independence from these colonial-based nations whose origins and principles were against and had nothing to do with the general Native American community. From there, we'll rise together into a superior condition than what is current and become our own 1st world nations.

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#166 Posted by FitnessTribesman13 (1590 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperordmb: I mean, it's kind of true though. European culture was formed why White folks in the first place. I don't think Indigenous Day is there solely because of these European-origin holidays.

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#167 Posted by FitnessTribesman13 (1590 posts) - - Show Bio

@fitnesstribesman13 said:
@cable_extreme said:
@jashro44 said:
@cable_extreme said:

@lunacyde: I do know about history, Christopher Columbus came to the Central America. He is the reason so many indigenous suffering under Tyranny were eventually freed and given democracy and rights. It is a pretty far stretch to blame Christopher Collumbus for problems in North America and Canada.

Canada is apart of North America. North America is a continent. Also Christopher Columbus freed them from tyranny?

Technicalities, I introduced an article explaining it in a past post. Many people were under the tyrannic control of the Meshika. As a direct result of Columbus stummbling on the new world, the Spaniards came and liberated them from their intense oppression.

They sho' did, I mean it's not like the Spanish conquistadores and leaders considered Native American inferior, thus stripping them of civil liberties, placed them in all sorts of slavery, forced them to assimilate (AKA "Cultural Genocide"), were known to frequently sexually assault Native American children and women, tortured them, suffered from foreign illnesses, and whatnot. Not tyrannical at all...

Verses decapitating thousands of innocent people as their heads bounced down steps. Current estimations about 20,000 per years....

Keep in mind there are plenty of claims that the conquistadors were simply exaggerating human sacrifice in Meshika society to justify their conquest.

The vast majority of those sacrificed were simply war captives and some Meshika nobles who were willing to sacrifice themselves as they believe they would be sent to a heavenly world in doing so.

It was very rare for a commoner to be sacrificed.

I don't know about you, but I'd rather die on my feat than live off of my knees. Spanish elites arguably committed equally or even worse acts against Native Americans than the Meshika sacrificing war captives and nobles.

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#168 Posted by Cable_Extreme (16670 posts) - - Show Bio

@fitnesstribesman13:

And at the same time, colonization is generally immoralized nowadays. I don't know how you can say it's neither good or bad when it leads to the suffering and devastation of entire races. Much like almost nobody's going to claim the Holocaust in a "isn't really good or bad" situation. I mean, they simply don't conform to common moral standards.

It doesn't lead to suffering and devastation of entire races. At least here in the U.S. the standard of living for native americans is better than many other places around the world. It is certainty better than how they were living in the past. They still have clan leadership, all the job and educational opportunities of other citizens of the united states.

It's all good. I descend from the Purepecha from Michoacan and possibly Taino (from Puerto Rico - I'm partly Puerto Rican as well). However, I don't consider myself Purepecha or Taino. I just consider myself Mexican/Puerto Rican-American. Nevertheless, Mexican culture should be considered a part of the Native American race when you consider how heavily influenced it is by indigenous Mexicans. Hell, the "Mexican" label is based on what the Aztecs really called themselves: Mexica/Meshika. Puerto Rican culture has Native American Taino influences as well and some Puerto Ricans refer to themselves as "Boriken" which is a Taino label for the inhabitants of Borikua, another name for Puerto Rico.

So your culture was influenced by indigenous, you aren't actually a decedent of the natives? I'm confused.

Fair enough then, but since you don't embrace the identity, you won't be considered as such now. Not a problem though.

Your race has little to do with how you consider yourself. Textbook I am 1/8th cheerokee and 7/8 irish. If I consider myself mainly of Irish heritage, it doesn't mean that I also don't have Cherokee ties. Even my mom who is 1/4th indian has an obvious visual resemblance to native American women, obviously more so than me but many people in my family are full or half blooded cherrokee.

It wouldn't make sense to embrace 1/8th of my identity over the 7/8ths would it? I don't dismiss native American ties but it is less part of me than my Irish highlander heritage.

Actually, Columbus was even considered exceptionally vile by other Europeans at the time. I know United Statians don't always necessarily take pride in the horrendous fate of Native Americans. However, I cannot and find it ridiculous to think Native Americans should forgive the US government and the original settlers for causing the fate of Native Americans, which is still ongoing.

No one is asking anyone for forgiveness, I wouldn't change the outcome of anything since we now have the United States. I wouldn't live or want to live anywhere else. The native Americans did not aid the effort of establishing the U.S., they shouldn't be celebrated for killing Americans who were born on the land and scalping women and children whom had no power to leave the U.S. without their husband's/father's approval.

Therefore, I believe it is time for us to gain our independence from these colonial-based nations whose origins and principles were against and had nothing to do with the general Native American community. From there, we'll rise together into a superior condition than what is current and become our own 1st world nations.

At the end of the day, colonial-based nations provide a higher standard of living than tribal based whom lack education, healthcare, technologies. People could never go back to an un-colonized way of living after seeing television, air conditioners, fast food etc...

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#169 Edited by Lunacyde (27464 posts) - - Show Bio

@cable_extreme: Also, Columbus was literally the governor of Hispaniola when hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions we're raped, tortured, and murdered under his rule. You can certainly put that on him.

Also colonized nation's have a higher standard of living because they have been exploiting "tribal" nations for centuries now.

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#170 Posted by Cable_Extreme (16670 posts) - - Show Bio

@lunacyde said:

@cable_extreme: Also, Columbus was literally the governor of Hispaniola when hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions we're raped, tortured, and murdered under his rule. You can certainly put that on him.

Well, I can put the labor camps, those were one of the very bad things he did.

As far as rape and stuff, even relatively modern day U.S. soldiers did that in Vietnam and WWII, even now their are reports. Where there is war, there will always be all forms of evil. And he was at war a lot in those days.

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#171 Posted by Cable_Extreme (16670 posts) - - Show Bio

@lunacyde: Also colonized nation's have a higher standard of living because they have been exploiting "tribal" nations for centuries now.

Can you go into further detail?

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#172 Posted by Lunacyde (27464 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperordmb: It's not. They are all culturally European holidays with origins from Europe. They are by definition European holidays celebrating things that are relevant to White/European culture.

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#173 Posted by Outside_85 (21467 posts) - - Show Bio

@lunacyde: Also colonized nation's have a higher standard of living because they have been exploiting "tribal" nations for centuries now.

Can you go into further detail?

I think thats supposed to be 'colonial powers' not 'colonized nations'?

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#174 Posted by FitnessTribesman13 (1590 posts) - - Show Bio

@fitnesstribesman13:

It doesn't lead to suffering and devastation of entire races. At least here in the U.S. the standard of living for native americans is better than many other places around the world. It is certainty better than how they were living in the past. They still have clan leadership, all the job and educational opportunities of other citizens of the united states.

Oh I beg to differ! I won't go into detail though, since that would take a long while, but I've been researching it lately. Actually, Native American conditions in reservations have been compared to some of the worst 3rd world nations. In many ways, they actually lived better back then. The only benefit I could think of Native Americans gaining through the effects of colonization is that they now are aware of some useful, modern appliances. Colonization mainly benefits the colonizer while the colonized lose so much, with Native Americans being a perfect example.

So your culture was influenced by indigenous, you aren't actually a decedent of the natives? I'm confused.

It's both. I'm culturally and racially Native American. Of course my culture is influenced by Native Americans if we possess so much Native American ancestry on average.

Your race has little to do with how you consider yourself. Textbook I am 1/8th cheerokee and 7/8 irish. If I consider myself mainly of Irish heritage, it doesn't mean that I also don't have Cherokee ties. Even my mom who is 1/4th indian has an obvious visual resemblance to native American women, obviously more so than me but many people in my family are full or half blooded cherrokee.

Race can definitely play a part in how you identify, along with your cultural ties and how you were nurtured.

It wouldn't make sense to embrace 1/8th of my identity over the 7/8ths would it? I don't dismiss native American ties but it is less part of me than my Irish highlander heritage.

Some do embrace their 1/8th Native American heritage. Hell, you don't have to possess any Native American ancestry at all to be considered one by some of the cultures. There were definitely Native American cultures who instead of dispatching the settler's children, they would adopt them into their culture and consider them one of their own. Cynthia Ann Parker is a perfect example.

No one is asking anyone for forgiveness, I wouldn't change the outcome of anything since we now have the United States. I wouldn't live or want to live anywhere else. The native Americans did not aid the effort of establishing the U.S., they shouldn't be celebrated for killing Americans who were born on the land and scalping women and children whom had no power to leave the U.S. without their husband's/father's approval.

The reason I say that is because there are definitely Native Americans who don't take pride in nor appreciate the creation of the US and colonial-based nations in general at the cost of their people, including myself. I agree that Native American contributions to the US aren't significant, although it is definitely there. Nevertheless, this is one of the reasons I support Native American nationalism/nationhood. There's not a single independent nation founded by pre-Colonial Native Americans, save for Greenland and even so, Greenland is still under heavy influence from Denmark colonialism to this day. That's pitiful. Such massive continents don't even have a single nation founded by the original cultures and inhabitants due to colonialism.

At the end of the day, colonial-based nations provide a higher standard of living than tribal based whom lack education, healthcare, technologies. People could never go back to an un-colonized way of living after seeing television, air conditioners, fast food etc...

For colonial-based nations in Latin America, the conditions are actually worse for the Native Americans, even compared to their lives prior to colonialism:

No Caption Provided

In the case of the US of A and Canada, that may seem to be the case. However, that's not necessarily the case with Native Americans. They should have every right to be against a nation founded by complete foreigners who crushed and took away everything they held. Even if Native Americans had it so good, it wouldn't change the fact that it happened and still exist under a country that the Native Americans fought so hard against and if they had emerged triumphant, their culture, nations, identity would thrive to this day.

BTW, I don't believe we should return completely to our pre-colonial ways. We can still modernize while reclaiming and fighting back for our culture, identity, and nations.

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#175 Posted by Cable_Extreme (16670 posts) - - Show Bio

@fitnesstribesman13:

Oh I beg to differ! I won't go into detail though, since that would take a long while, but I've been researching it lately. Actually, Native American conditions in reservations have been compared to some of the worst 3rd world nations. In many ways, they actually lived better back then. The only benefit I could think of Native Americans gaining through the effects of colonization is that they now are aware of some useful, modern appliances. Colonization mainly benefits the colonizer while the colonized lose so much, with Native Americans being a perfect example.

You act as if this is a problem of the colonizer at the moment. The problem is that after Native Americans get jobs or go to college, they leave the reservations and do not put money back in. This is a big problem at the reservation that some of my family stays at. For a reservation to work, it would require people to put work into it, instead many people are leaving because it is simply easier to get a job and live an "American" life. This would be more problems within the reservations not directly caused by colonization, more of indirectly through the choices of many native Americans.

It's both. I'm culturally and racially Native American. Of course my culture is influenced by Native Americans if we possess so much Native American ancestry on average.

Keep on keeping on.

Race can definitely play a part in how you identify, along with your cultural ties and how you were nurtured.

Race doesn't have a lot to do with how you identify. There are black Irish people that came from Africa or Asia that identify with the Irish culture. There are many people from Asian countries who come to America and embrace our more western culture. Race and culture are pretty separate as your culture can change where as race cannot.

Some do embrace their 1/8th Native American heritage. Hell, you don't have to possess any Native American ancestry at all to be considered one by some of the cultures. There were definitely Native American cultures who instead of dispatching the settler's children, they would adopt them into their culture and consider them one of their own. Cynthia Ann Parker is a perfect example.

Vice versa as well.

The reason I say that is because there are definitely Native Americans who don't take pride in nor appreciate the creation of the US and colonial-based nations in general at the cost of their people, including myself. I agree that Native American contributions to the US aren't significant, although it is definitely there. Nevertheless, this is one of the reasons I support Native American nationalism/nationhood. There's not a single independent nation founded by pre-Colonial Native Americans, save for Greenland and even so, Greenland is still under heavy influence from Denmark colonialism to this day. That's pitiful. Such massive continents don't even have a single nation founded by the original cultures and inhabitants due to colonialism.

In a perfect world I'd agree with you. But the strongest always gets their desired outcome. We are probably going to take over North Korea soon, the world just preys on the weak to strengthen the already strong.

For colonial-based nations in Latin America, the conditions are actually worse for the Native Americans, even compared to their lives prior to colonialism:

It is like that for pretty much everyone there though.

In the case of the US of A and Canada, that may seem to be the case. However, that's not necessarily the case with Native Americans. They should have every right to be against a nation founded by complete foreigners who crushed and took away everything they held. Even if Native Americans had it so good, it wouldn't change the fact that it happened and still exist under a country that the Native Americans fought so hard against and if they had emerged triumphant, their culture, nations, identity would thrive to this day.

Unless China, Japan, Russia, or India decided they needed to expand.

BTW, I don't believe we should return completely to our pre-colonial ways. We can still modernize while reclaiming and fighting back for our culture, identity, and nations.

I could never support a coup d'etat against the best nation to ever exist.

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#176 Posted by Emperordmb (1959 posts) - - Show Bio

@lunacyde: There is a huge difference between a celebration of culture and a celebration of race though. I was not a European pagan, how was Halloween more favorable to me as a child then some black kid who also wanted to participate in halloween because candy is awesome? How is Christmas any less of a holiday for some black American Christian than it is for me? How has race ever been remotely relevant to the point of Valentine's day?

Sure these holidays were formed by cultural influences but they are not celebrations of race and they are not more partial to people based on their skin color.

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#177 Edited by FitnessTribesman13 (1590 posts) - - Show Bio

@cable_extreme said:

@fitnesstribesman13:

You act as if this is a problem of the colonizer at the moment. The problem is that after Native Americans get jobs or go to college, they leave the reservations and do not put money back in. This is a big problem at the reservation that some of my family stays at. For a reservation to work, it would require people to put work into it, instead many people are leaving because it is simply easier to get a job and live an "American" life. This would be more problems within the reservations not directly caused by colonization, more of indirectly through the choices of many native Americans.

The colonizer is definitely contributing to current Native American issues, and that particular issue you've brought up can definitely be linked to colonialism. Why? Because reservations are a product of colonialism, not Native Americans. This is an example of colonialism leading to an internal struggle in the Native American community. That's only one side of the issue though.

Keep on keeping on.

???

Race doesn't have a lot to do with how you identify. There are black Irish people that came from Africa or Asia that identify with the Irish culture. There are many people from Asian countries who come to America and embrace our more western culture. Race and culture are pretty separate as your culture can change where as race cannot.

I don't think so. Sure, you can identify with Irish culture and be of a non-White race, because culture and race aren't the same thing. However, race is definitely a part of your identity, while often associated with race, it is still its own separate identity.

In a perfect world I'd agree with you. But the strongest always gets their desired outcome. We are probably going to take over North Korea soon, the world just preys on the weak to strengthen the already strong.

You sound like a Social Darwinist. That's pretty barbaric and arrogant if you ask me. Hell, if I'm not mistaken, rape apologists/sympathizers possess a comparable mentality.

So I'm bigger and badder than lots of folks. I don't like them for no good reason and would like to get a nice workout by physically assaulting them. Great excuse huh?

Then who wouldn't like to live in a perfect world? We can at least perfect/improve it as much as possible, but this kind of "the strong prey on the weak" mentality is definitely not contributing, very degenerate and barbaric. And how hard is it not to resort to such savagery solely because the "strong" know others aren't on the same level as them, which is military power in this case? That kind of mentality leads to serious conflicts.

Now the problem is North Korean leaders hold this same kind of mentality and could become a huge threat to the entire world, so I'm totally fine with getting rid of them. Now, there are plenty of innocent North Korean individuals who don't deserve to suffer at the hands of the US solely because the US knows that they can subjugated them through military force with ease: that's savagery.

It is like that for pretty much everyone there though.

It is true that the post-colonial Native American cultures (I'm referring to the ones resulting from colonialism like Mexicans, Guatemalans, Nicaraguans, Peruvians, etc.) share similar issues, albeit the pre-colonial Native American cultures in Latin America suffer the most.

Unless China, Japan, Russia, or India decided they needed to expand.

The point is that if Native Americans were triumphant against every terroristic invasion from foreigners IN GENERAL, their nations, culture and people would still thrive to this day.

I could never support a coup d'etat against the best nation to ever exist.

I didn't refer to supporting a coup. However, I'll definitely work against the US of A in support of the Native American cause through non-violent means.

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#178 Posted by deactivated-5a5a76120d2ba (5989 posts) - - Show Bio

The indigenous people of America deserve a lot more than a day.

That would be like someone coming to your house, killing your family, giving the others diseases, saying they are going to leave until they see you have a big screen, then locking you in a broom closet for a few years and then going ,"Oh. My bad".

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#179 Posted by Cable_Extreme (16670 posts) - - Show Bio

The indigenous people of America deserve a lot more than a day.

That would be like someone coming to your house, killing your family, giving the others diseases, saying they are going to leave until they see you have a big screen, then locking you in a broom closet for a few years and then going ,"Oh. My bad".

Specifically in America, why should we celebrate people who didn't help nearly as much as they harmed the colonization of our great nation?

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#180 Posted by Nerise (863 posts) - - Show Bio

As long as they don't take my Thanksgiving and Christmas then im ok

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#181 Posted by deactivated-5a5a76120d2ba (5989 posts) - - Show Bio

@cable_extreme: because it was their great nation before all the lies, cheating, murder, backstabbing, robbery, and borderline genoscide.

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#182 Edited by Cable_Extreme (16670 posts) - - Show Bio

@fitnesstribesman13:

The colonizer is definitely contributing to current Native American issues, and that particular issue you've brought up can definitely be linked to colonialism. Why? Because reservations are a product of colonialism, not Native Americans. This is an example of colonialism leading to an internal struggle in the Native American community. That's only one side of the issue though.

I don't think it is, it means that native Americans would rather live a life in the U.S. than on their private reservation. This is because the U.S. can provide the natives with a better live than the reservation can. The people that do live on reservations have trouble finding employment, stable living conditions etc... This is because the new generation moves out, it is an interior problem, mainly a micro issue within the tribe rather than a macro one with the country.

???

To persist; hold one's course; keep on trucking

I don't think so. Sure, you can identify with Irish culture and be of a non-White race, because culture and race aren't the same thing. However, race is definitely a part of your identity, while often associated with race, it is still its own separate identity.

Race can unify people, can lead to oppression or privilege but it doesn't define who you are. Your culture is what you grew up around, your race can help you understand your heritage but where you live now and the culture you grew up around is more important to defining you than anything else.

You sound like a Social Darwinist. That's pretty barbaric and arrogant if you ask me. Hell, if I'm not mistaken, rape apologists/sympathizers possess a comparable mentality.

So I'm bigger and badder than lots of folks. I don't like them for no good reason and would like to get a nice workout by physically assaulting them. Great excuse huh?

Provide an example that says otherwise. Europeans were taking land from other Europeans (and Asians), Mongolians, France (Alexander the great), Rome, England (In Africa and the Americas), Spain Central Americas, China, Japan (With Samurai), Vikings (Especially), England with Ireland, I can go on with Persians, Greeks etc... It is human nature. It is why U.S. spends so much money on national defense, we know the rules of the world.

Then who wouldn't like to live in a perfect world? We can at least perfect/improve it as much as possible, but this kind of "the strong prey on the weak" mentality is definitely not contributing, very degenerate and barbaric. And how hard is it not to resort to such savagery solely because the "strong" know others aren't on the same level as them, which is military power in this case? That kind of mentality leads to serious conflicts.

This isn't a mentality, it is an observation based on history.

Now the problem is North Korean leaders hold this same kind of mentality and could become a huge threat to the entire world, so I'm totally fine with getting rid of them. Now, there are plenty of innocent North Korean individuals who don't deserve to suffer at the hands of the US solely because the US knows that they can subjugated them through military force with ease: that's savagery.

Well we would do what we have to do for ourselves. Every nation is inherently selfish. We do good things, but we all (Nations) think of ourselves first.

It is true that the post-colonial Native American cultures (I'm referring to the ones resulting from colonialism like Mexicans, Guatemalans, Nicaraguans, Peruvians, etc.) share similar issues, albeit the pre-colonial Native American cultures in Latin America suffer the most.

They probably did suffer the most, but we are talking about an American (U.S.) Holiday.

The point is that if Native Americans were triumphant against every terroristic invasion from foreigners IN GENERAL, their nations, culture and people would still thrive to this day.

They were still in the stone age, I am not sure they would thrive as much as the U.S. is now. only 300/400 years later and we have a highly advanced nation that probably wouldn't be anything close if the U.S. had not formed.

I didn't refer to supporting a coup. However, I'll definitely work against the US of A in support of the Native American cause through non-violent means.

Then I guess I'd see you on the debate table lol.

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#183 Posted by Deathstroke52 (7006 posts) - - Show Bio

l m a o

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#184 Posted by Lunacyde (27464 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperordmb: It goes back to systemic power. Whites take for granted that the majority of holidays in this country specifically represent their heritage. Santa is portrayed as white, Jesus is portrayed as white, Saint Patrick was of course white. These holidays do not resonate as much with many minorities because they are not representative of these minorities experiences, especially native Americans. It goes back to the fact that other groups' cultures were intentionally eradicated and survivors were largely forced to assimilate to white ways and traditions. No, most of these holidays are not specifically about race, but the fact that they are all basically white traditions and culture or neutral at best is telling.

@outside_85: You're correct. I was on my phone at lunch trying to get multiple things done.

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#185 Posted by ParagonNate (4523 posts) - - Show Bio

@lunacyde: Correct me if I'm wrong but Santa is originally a figure from Germanic myth/folklore, Hell in some versions of the tales Santa is Odin. Why wouldn't he be depicted as being white? Jesus has been depicted as being of every race I can think of, depending on the person doing the depicting, and America is a majority white nation, so once again, not all that strange.

Also, what....exactly are you proposing happen? Saying 'it's telling' in an ominous manner does precisely nothing, for anyone.

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#186 Posted by deactivated-5a39421825b35 (2981 posts) - - Show Bio

Don't people realize King Solomon came to the Americas on a flying carpet almost 2,500 years before Columbus?

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#187 Posted by Noone1996 (8760 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't understand why people misinterpret history so badly when it comes to Native Americans. They act as if the Europeans/Americans slaughtered defenseless and peaceful tribes of people that laid in a fetal position. It was a war for territory. They fought for over 500 years for their land. They put up a great fight, but viewing it as "genocide" or "stealing land" is an over exaggeration. Land is conquered during war. This concept held true even when the Native Americans were stealing conquering from each other. Also, 90% of the Native American population was killed off by disease.

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#188 Edited by Noone1996 (8760 posts) - - Show Bio

@fitnesstribesman13 said:

Someone should've built the wall too:

No Caption Provided

The irony in that meme is that Native American tribes that were at the top of the pecking order were just as genocidal and cruel as Columbus and many weaker tribes only welcomed outsiders in order to help against those other Native tribes that were oppressing them. The Aztecs are a perfect example of this.

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#189 Posted by MetalJimmor (5480 posts) - - Show Bio

@fitnesstribesman13:

To add on to what you've said, the Mexica people also had free public school before it was a thing in Europe at the time that was available to the common people, and arguably more upward social mobility than the people in Europe had at the time. In fact exceptional commoners could attend the school meant for nobility if they showed promise that could lead to administrative jobs or a position in the priesthood.

The slaves they did have were also kept in better condition than what you'd later see in the United States. As an example, an Aztec slave could not be re-sold once purchased, had the possibility to buy back their freedom, had the right to marry, and could become free if they married their owner. Slaves were also freed upon the owner's death and couldn't be passed down, and you could not be born a slave. Even if the parents were slaves, their child would be a free citizen.

They even had more gender equality, with women being able to serve roles of authority, albeit not to the same high stations as a male.

I feel people focus far too much on the human sacrifice done. Yes, it was prevalent, but it wasn't the entirety of their culture. Just like any civilization it had it's good points and bad points, and in the end you'd probably have a better, and healthier, life as a commoner in Tenochtitlan than you would a commoner in London in the same time period.

That is, of course, until the Spaniards came. And the Spanish didn't just bring down the Triple Alliance and free the other local kingdoms from their oppressive rule. They just inserted themselves into the role of oppressors, which resulted in a massive culling of the indigenous population the likes of which the Aztec Empire could never imagine. Admittedly mostly by disease.

As for the topic, I never cared much for Columbus Day outside being a day off from school. I am partially of Cherokee ancestry, and I was always a little annoyed at how little time was dedicating to learning about that part of my family history compared to how long we had to learn about Columbus and the first pilgrims. That being said, I feel we could honor the native peoples better by giving more time in school history class to them than we can by taking kids out of school for a day.

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#190 Edited by FitnessTribesman13 (1590 posts) - - Show Bio

@cable_extreme said:

@fitnesstribesman13:

I don't think it is, it means that native Americans would rather live a life in the U.S. than on their private reservation. This is because the U.S. can provide the natives with a better live than the reservation can. The people that do live on reservations have trouble finding employment, stable living conditions etc... This is because the new generation moves out, it is an interior problem, mainly a micro issue within the tribe rather than a macro one with the country.

The reservation system supposed to be an effective way for Native Americans to thrive while preserving their race and culture but only under the US government. The fact it is largely failing is a massive issue itself and that's not considering that reservations are gradually shrinking down to nothing and Native Americans have a myriad of other issues to deal with, both internal and external issues.

I mean if colonialism never occurred, Native Americans wouldn't have to deal with these issues in the first place and that includes having to assimilate into US society than live in 3rd world conditions on a reservation. This can lead to some serious cultural genocide and dilution of the Native American bloodline. Notice how many Native American languages and traditions are on the verge of extinction and there are only a few million Native Americans left, many of whom are actually mixed race and comprise around a mere 1-3% of the US population despite being the original inhabitants.

That was one of the major and sickening objectives of the colonizers.

Race can unify people, can lead to oppression or privilege but it doesn't define who you are. Your culture is what you grew up around, your race can help you understand your heritage but where you live now and the culture you grew up around is more important to defining you than anything else.

I don't think so. It's just that they're separate parts of one's identity. Your racial identity doesn't have to match your cultural identity and I say it's all subjective in how one determines which one is more significant. I believe they are of equal significance in my case.

Provide an example that says otherwise. Europeans were taking land from other Europeans (and Asians), Mongolians, France (Alexander the great), Rome, England (In Africa and the Americas), Spain Central Americas, China, Japan (With Samurai), Vikings (Especially), England with Ireland, I can go on with Persians, Greeks etc... It is human nature. It is why U.S. spends so much money on national defense, we know the rules of the world.

"He (Darwin) pointed at how in numberless animal societies (such as humans and ants), the struggle between separate individuals for the means of existence disappears, how struggle is replaced by cooperation, and how that substitution results in the development of intellectual and moral faculties which secure to the species the best conditions for survival. He intimated that in such cases the fittest are not the physically strongest, nor the cunningest, but those who learn to combine so as to mutually support each other, strong and weak alike, for the welfare of the community."

^ there's my example. This does not conform to your so-called "observation" that it's best to live by principles akin to "survival of the fittest/social darwinism."

Just because it was commonplace in history isn't a good justification either. It only tells me how degenerate and barbaric Homo Sapiens can be. I thought we were supposed to make this world a better place, not worsen it.

Then again, there are plenty of cultures who didn't resort to such savagery and would only engage in violence when necessary. The cultures you've mentioned above include examples of this idea of doing the right thing.

This isn't a mentality, it is an observation based on history.

It is not always a consistent one either and Darwin's and "making a world a better place" observations conflict it. Besides, I don't think you would enjoy being subjugated one day when another nation suddenly develops a superior military force than the US of A. Not impossible either based on history when you consider that civilizations rise and fall all the time, with the Roman Empire being a perfect example of a seemingly unbeatable military power and ultimate civilization in ancient times, but the final outcome said otherwise.

Well we would do what we have to do for ourselves. Every nation is inherently selfish. We do good things, but we all (Nations) think of ourselves first.

And that's supposed to be an excuse for savagery?

Let's say the US government and many citizens today decides to promote and engage in genocide against a culture for selfish reasons. Would you side with them?

You definitely come off as the negative form of a nationalist thus far.

I don't agree that every nation/culture is inherently selfish either, but perhaps you should be more specific.

They probably did suffer the most, but we are talking about an American (U.S.) Holiday.

Columbus Day isn't entirely limited to the US of A either. Doesn't matter though, since our discussion wasn't entirely devoted to Columbus Day in the first place.

They were still in the stone age, I am not sure they would thrive as much as the U.S. is now. only

300/400 years later and we have a highly advanced nation that probably wouldn't be anything close if the U.S. had not formed.

We may never know. History can be quite unpredictable and what Native Americans would become without colonialism is up for another discussion.

Nevertheless, I'll just say that the Native Americans didn't need colonialism to advance. If they managed to ward off foreign invaders, it is possible that they would adopt whatever technology is introduced, such as collecting and observing firearms and ships along the coast following the defeat of the invaders. Then of course, they could simply engage in trade between foreigners, which was a superior method of advancing than being colonized. Notice how much of a role MENA and Asian civilizations played in progressing Europe into complex civilizations through trade.

Then let's not act like Native American cultures weren't advanced in any way, shape or form. In fact, there were definitely things Native Americans did better than and were more advanced in than the colonizers. Ancient Mesoamerican and Andean civilizations are perfect examples. I could easily say the Native Americans would advance at an incredible rate with direct contact with distant cultures in the Americas.

Let's not act like stone age societies can't become incredible, complex civilizations either with ancient Mesoamerica being a perfect example.

Then I guess I'd see you on the debate table lol.

As of now, I'll just await to complete my movement and continue with the discussion another time.

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#191 Posted by theredhood44 (1093 posts) - - Show Bio

Lmao...it should be leif Erickson day

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#192 Edited by FitnessTribesman13 (1590 posts) - - Show Bio

@noone1996 said:
@fitnesstribesman13 said:

Someone should've built the wall too:

No Caption Provided

The irony in that meme is that Native American tribes that were at the top of the pecking order were just as genocidal and cruel as Columbus and many weaker tribes only welcomed outsiders in order to help against those other Native tribes that were oppressing them. The Aztecs are a perfect example of this.

There's a huge difference between comparing an entire culture and an individual. It was Meshika leaders who were most responsible for these conquests. Colonialism was far worse than anything committed by Native American cultures as far as I'm concerned. Meshika atrocities, such as (Aztec) conquests and slavery were actually fairly different from the colonizers' method of conquering that are arguably much less severe. Jimmor down below me gets into those details. Not to say that the Meshika were justified in leading conquests, but to think colonialism was any better and desirable to Native Americans is ridiculous.

While it is true that some Native American cultures initially welcomed and supported the colonizer in defeating their rivals, this attitude quickly changed when these cultures began to realize the colonizers were a far greater threat than their rivals. There's a reason why Native American leaders such as Tecumseh promoted Pan-Amerindianism against the colonial threats while disregarding or settling any rivalries between each other as irrelevant due to the greater, real threat by far: colonizers who were completely foreign and who Native Americans weren't used to dealing with.

With that being said, someone still should've built that wall for Native Americans. At least that way they can develop on their own terms, embrace their culture to the fullest and won't have to deal with the issue of being largely depopulation among a myriad of other serious issues today.

@metaljimmor said:

@fitnesstribesman13:

To add on to what you've said, the Mexica people also had free public school before it was a thing in Europe at the time that was available to the common people, and arguably more upward social mobility than the people in Europe had at the time. In fact exceptional commoners could attend the school meant for nobility if they showed promise that could lead to administrative jobs or a position in the priesthood.

The slaves they did have were also kept in better condition than what you'd later see in the United States. As an example, an Aztec slave could not be re-sold once purchased, had the possibility to buy back their freedom, had the right to marry, and could become free if they married their owner. Slaves were also freed upon the owner's death and couldn't be passed down, and you could not be born a slave. Even if the parents were slaves, their child would be a free citizen.

They even had more gender equality, with women being able to serve roles of authority, albeit not to the same high stations as a male.

I feel people focus far too much on the human sacrifice done. Yes, it was prevalent, but it wasn't the entirety of their culture. Just like any civilization it had it's good points and bad points, and in the end you'd probably have a better, and healthier, life as a commoner in Tenochtitlan than you would a commoner in London in the same time period.

That is, of course, until the Spaniards came. And the Spanish didn't just bring down the Triple Alliance and free the other local kingdoms from their oppressive rule. They just inserted themselves into the role of oppressors, which resulted in a massive culling of the indigenous population the likes of which the Aztec Empire could never imagine. Admittedly mostly by disease.

As for the topic, I never cared much for Columbus Day outside being a day off from school. I am partially of Cherokee ancestry, and I was always a little annoyed at how little time was dedicating to learning about that part of my family history compared to how long we had to learn about Columbus and the first pilgrims. That being said, I feel we could honor the native peoples better by giving more time in school history class to them than we can by taking kids out of school for a day.

Indeed, we should educate ourselves more on these kinds of matters.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/off-topic-5/children-from-the-sun-sneak-peek-1902753/

^ I believe this may be of your interest as well. It's a thread I've posted not to long ago, which holds some relevance to our discussion. Informative pieces like this will serve a major role in my movement...

PS: I see your Huitzopotchli avatar lol.

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#193 Posted by Lunacyde (27464 posts) - - Show Bio

@lunacyde: Correct me if I'm wrong but Santa is originally a figure from Germanic myth/folklore, Hell in some versions of the tales Santa is Odin. Why wouldn't he be depicted as being white? Jesus has been depicted as being of every race I can think of, depending on the person doing the depicting, and America is a majority white nation, so once again, not all that strange.

Also, what....exactly are you proposing happen? Saying 'it's telling' in an ominous manner does precisely nothing, for anyone.

Yes, I'm NOT saying Santa shouldn't be white. I'm saying that Christmas is a holiday with white imagery and characters that represents white/European heritage and tradition. This is far down the rabbit hole from my original point which is A.) that Christopher Columbus does not deserve a holiday in his honor, and B.) Indigenous Peoples' Day is a suitable alternative to memorialize the victims of genocide against indigenous peoples.

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#194 Posted by Insertnewname (1541 posts) - - Show Bio

good. columbus made the people in america bring gold to him monthly and chopped their arms off if they didnt, right?

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#195 Posted by MetalJimmor (5480 posts) - - Show Bio

@fitnesstribesman13:

I'll take a look at it. I do enjoy spreading information about civilizations most people consider barbaric.

The avatar is actually supposed to be Quetzalcoatl as depicted in the Codex Borbonicus. Though I am relying on wikipedia's accuracy in that regard. I've always used Aztec iconography as part of my online persona. I just love their aesthetic. Woefully underutilized in popular culture.

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#196 Posted by Static Shock (52929 posts) - - Show Bio
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#197 Posted by Outside_85 (21467 posts) - - Show Bio

@lunacyde: Correct me if I'm wrong but Santa is originally a figure from Germanic myth/folklore, Hell in some versions of the tales Santa is Odin. Why wouldn't he be depicted as being white? Jesus has been depicted as being of every race I can think of, depending on the person doing the depicting, and America is a majority white nation, so once again, not all that strange.

Also, what....exactly are you proposing happen? Saying 'it's telling' in an ominous manner does precisely nothing, for anyone.

The folklore character he is based on may naturally have been white depending on where the myth came from.

Reason why he wouldn't right now is because Saint Nickolaus was from Turkey.

The guy in red we are familiar with today however... he was invented by Coca Cola...

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#198 Posted by Static Shock (52929 posts) - - Show Bio

And then there's the "what about a white people's day" comment.

...when they have plenty of those. LOL.

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#199 Posted by Static Shock (52929 posts) - - Show Bio

LMAO @ the majority of the nonsense in here.

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#200 Edited by Saren (27862 posts) - - Show Bio
@outside_85 said:

The folklore character he is based on may naturally have been white depending on where the myth came from.

Reason why he wouldn't right now is because Saint Nickolaus was from Turkey.

Turkey used to be part of Greece and populated with Greek people. Saint Nicholas was a Greek Orthodox bishop.

Modern Turks are the descendants of Central Asian nomads who spread through Anatolia after being driven out of their lands by Genghis Khan.