Religion… What do you think?

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just_sayin

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1. Usually in situations of debates the speaker whose belief or lack thereof matches up with their own will say that said person won. I am not surprised to see you think that William Lane Craig won the debate since both of you are Christian. This would be no different than hearing an Atheist say that Christopher Hitchens won the debate. I would expect that.

Jonathan Heidt says we all start with our position and then find a case to support it. I'd agree with that. I do think if you judged the debate by as an impartial bystander on who made the best positive case and who addressed objections best - Craig won.

2. But the passage itself says GOD does evil or disaster / calamity. Isaiah 45 is supposed to be GOD speaking there so it's GOD saying he does all these things. Make light and darkness, make Peace and create Evil. These are contrasts. Hence, I think this was talking about GOD doing evil or at the very less bad things. I am not measuring GOD to my own standard here I am simply showing where GOD supposedly states his own actions dealing with the world.

I am not sure if we are talking in circles or if semantics are at play. My understanding is that God is good. He defines what is good. Evil is what opposes Him. We may say that when something bad happens to us it is "evil", but it really a "disaster" or "calamity". If God allows a fire to kill a child, he has not done "evil", but permitted something painful and disastrous. The action lacks moral intent. The Creator can do with His creation as He wishes. Sometimes people wrongly attribute to God "evil". Often people who have gone through the death of a loved one or some painful experience and blame God, but God has not done something "evil" to them.

3. Well, GOD is Omnipotent is he not ? So how is it that an Infinite Being that can do anything can not create a world where his will and purpose if fully accomplished ? How can our finite choices hinder a GOD's purpose who supposedly can do anything. If GOD is capable of creating people who he knows will freely love him then why can't GOD create an entire world of people who will freely love him ?

It seems free will would be the quick answer to your question. If God permits free will because it is important to Him that our responses to him be real and genuine - for real love can only exist where free will exist, then in a world where we have free will - our choices will deviate from God's choices.

How is it just conjecture or speculative to think that someone who can do anything actually does anything ?

Is this your perspective? Do you feel there is no evidence of God's existence?

4. So because Adam and Eve never thought to eat from The Tree of Life they could not have it after they sinned ? Well, why not ? I mean if the means for Eternal Life is in that tree it essentially nullifies the need for Jesus sacrifice especially if GOD could forgive sins however he chooses since he makes the rules anyways.

This is such a speculative question. The primary purpose of Jesus substitutionary sacrifice is not eternal life, but forgiveness. I guess they could have lived eternally separated from God and in torment. Is that the kind of eternity anyone would want?

Your last line is not true at all, because regardless of what you believe or think, if the Bible be true, then we are under Adam's curses regardless of our thoughts about it, you have to believe in Jesus and The Father for you to be redeemed meaning the work itself is not enough to redeem you. Hence, Adam's curse is greater than Jesus resurrection. Otherwise, we would all be saved by Jesus regardless of what we believed about it or not.

Maybe that free will thing is a play here. So, you believe that God should drag people unwillingly into heaven against their will? Like an ex-husband who just won't accept the divorce - just grab her and go. Maybe God treats free will so seriously, he will respect our choice to reject Him. I wouldn't say that makes the curse greater - just a choice that can be chosen.

5. We are not talking about earning salvation, only that acting on faith to believe is an action.

OK.

6. Well not exactly, I was going with how can GOD punish us with only curses and death for Sin ? I mean it says in the Bible that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. Thatis a rule GOD himself made and did not have to. GOD could have deemed the penalty for sin anything.

Well, it seems that the penalty for sin should be reflective of how serious God thinks of sin.

7. Thatis not what I was going for here. My point was that GOD could give us all a mind like Jesus and then we would all freely follow and love him we could all be living forever and within GOD's laws freely. This does not answer the question, the point was why does me not living up to GOD's standard mean I deserved to be punished if nobody but GOD can live up to this standard ?

Was Adam judged by how he kept the Mosiac Law? Nope. Neither was Noah, Abraham, or Joseph. The prominent Christian position is that Abraham and other Old Testament "saints" were judged by their faith. The Old Testament law could never save. It could only point out what you did wrong. So, you aren't judged by whether you deserve to be punished. Trust me, if the New Testament is correct, you don't want to be judged according to what you deserve. You are made right in God's eyes by faith in Him - yep that involves a response to Him.

8. How so ? Especially if GOD knows the details to how you would love him as well as the outcome ? Even if GOD is not causing it how can it still be so free yet so understood beforehand ?

I'm have no idea of what it is like to be omniscient. I can't remember where I parked last time at Walmart.

9. I don't know. Can I trust a deity fully who says he can both make peace and create evil ? Who asks his followers to kill and burn up a man and his family because that man stole something ? A deity who while sent his son to give his life for humanity at one point got some mad at humanity and what they was doing he killed off the world in a flood except a few people who followed him ? You see it's GOD's inconsistent nature that makes me ponder these things. Especially if GOD is infinite and all powerful.

Don't forget just. The tendency is to view God as either a loving Grandfather figure who doesn't care what you have done or a mean vindictive God who hates you and wants to strike you down dead. It is difficult to see God as both loving and just. But that is the God described in the Old and New Testaments.

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#28202  Edited By jonjizz
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King Saturn

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#28203  Edited By King Saturn

1. Okay, not really much to say here.

2. But what if GOD says he does do both Good and Evil ? Is GOD just defining what is Good or is GOD defining both what is Good and Bad ? I believe GOD does both Good and Bad ? The passage in Isaiah 45:7 says that GOD does all these things. I am inclined to believe that. You say that if GOD allows a child to die but you did not consider if GOD causes a child to die. We was speaking earlier about how GOD causes Earthquakes or Disaster where multiple people die. If it is not GOD's intent to do bad things then why does GOD at times harm people with these Disasters ? Even if GOD is punishing people how is his intent not to harm if he actually kills people ?

3. How do you know our choices have to deviate from GOD's choices for us to have Free Will ? Is it not possible for GOD to create people who freely do the things GOD wants ? Did Jesus have Free Will ? Like I said, if GOD gave us all a mind like Jesus would we not all be freely doing what GOD wants ? Is there anything too hard for GOD ?

Whoa ? How the heck did you get this idea from my reply ? My point was about how is it just speculation to think GOD can do anything if he supposedly can do anything. I said nothing about thinking there was no evidence for GOD.

4. Really ? So then why did Jesus say he came that we have Life and Life more abundantly ? Heck, even John 3:16 says for GOD so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believe in him shall not perish but have "Everlasting Life". So clearly Jesus sacrifice was about Eternal Life. Well according to the holy text it was GOD who cursed Adam and Eve right ? Does not the Bible say that GOD can heal all disease and affliction ? So GOD could give us everlasting life through the Tree of Life and heal us from suffering if he deemed it so.

5. Well here is the problem. When you pass on are you in control of what you want or desire ? If GOD was to put all of our spirits in Heaven after we died. Who is to say some of those whom did not believe when they was alive would not feel differently being not only in the presence of GOD but be outside of their physical self ? Who is to say that someone who has denied GOD their whole life on Earth would still feel the same way if in his actual presence in Heaven ? But most people who reject GOD do on either the basis of lack of evidence for GOD or lack of understanding of concepts about GOD. If someone is in GOD's actual presence after passing whose to say they would still feel the same ?

6. True, the problem is all sin is not equal in value and because of this for GOD to punish all sin with the same curse would be unfair. The person who steals 5 dollars is not the same as the person who kills 10 people. Both have sinned yet the damage is no where near equal. Also, GOD has options as to how to deal with sin. We know this because at times GOD deals with sin with immediate death or GOD deals with sin with a curse of sickness or GOD deals with sin by putting a mark on a man.

7. My initial point was not how GOD judges us or how shall we all be judged as it was to show that if GOD gave us all the mind of Jesus, GOD would not need to punish us at all as we would freely be following him.

8. But we can describe the concept of Omniscience and for GOD to know all things he would have to know the details that lead to the Outcomes he knows of. This would make it hard for anything to be freely done unto him.

9. Well GOD is described and showed doing both Good and Bad things in the Bible. I think GOD at times can be Just but not always. The story in Joshua 7 for example was not justice, as GOD had Achan's sons and daughters killed for his own sin. In Numbers on multiple occasions GOD killed Israelites for complaining about lack of Food ad Water. I think GOD's character is Inconsistent.

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SpareHeadOne

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@king_saturn:

Then what exactly is the determining factor for The Almighty to know whom will be saved whom will not be ? I mean GOD can try anyone through the fires of suffering and struggle and that person would grow in some way. What makes one person more a candidate for being an Elect of GOD than another ?

Romans 8:28And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose. 29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.

Romans 9:10 Not only that, but Rebecca’s children were conceived by one man, our father Isaac. 11Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that God’s plan of election might stand, 12not by works but by Him who calls, she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”c13So it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Ephesians 1:5He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the Beloved One. 7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8that He lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9And He has made known to us the mystery of His will according to His good pleasure, which He purposed in Christ10as a plan for the fullness of time, to bring all things in heaven and on earth together in Christ. 11In Him we were also chosenas God’s own, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything by the counsel of His will,

2 Timothy 1:8 but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, 9who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

The determining factor for The Almighty to know whom will be saved is that their salvation is integral in God achieving His Plan and Purpose

The determining factor for The Almighty to know whom will not be saved is that their non-salvation is integral in God achieving His Plan and Purpose

God's plan and purpose is to bring all things in heaven and on earth together in Christ.

Works, righteousness, goodness etc do not make one person more a candidate for being an Elect of GOD than another.

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dshipp17

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#28205  Edited By dshipp17

@king_saturn:

“All of this is totally irrelevant to the discussion that this comes from. The point is and was that GOD had 70,000 Israelites killed on the strength of a sin David committed by taking an unlawful census. Whether it was Satan or GOD who incited the census is irrelevant. The point is that GOD killed thousands over the sin of one man and that is by definition Unjust and Unfair.”

It is completely and totally relevant as to whether it was Satan versus God who incited the census. If God directed the census, as He did in Exodus and Numbers, then, it would be a lawful census not worthy of God's wrath; if Satan directed the census, then, the Jews did that which was evil in the eyes of God, where, as I said before, David was contrite but the rest who suffered the penalty was not contrite and perished, as a result of their lack of contrition for their evil deeds, not as innocent people, as your argument otherwise attempts to imply.

2 Samuel 23: 20-23: And Benaiah the son of Jehoiada, the son of a valiant man, of Kabzeel, who had done many acts, he slew two lionlike men of Moab: he went down also and slew a lion in the midst of a pit in time of snow: 21 And he slew an Egyptian, a goodly man: and the Egyptian had a spear in his hand; but he went down to him with a staff, and plucked the spear out of the Egyptian's hand, and slew him with his own spear. 22 These things did Benaiah the son of Jehoiada, and had the name among three mighty men. 23 He was more honourable than the thirty, but he attained not to the first three. And David set him over his guard. 2 Samuel 24:14-16: And David said unto Gad, I am in a great strait: let us fall now into the hand of the Lord; for his mercies are great: and let me not fall into the hand of man. 15 So the Lord sent a pestilence upon Israel from the morning even to the time appointed: and there died of the people from Dan even to Beersheba seventy thousand men.16 And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the Lord repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine hand. And the angel of the Lord was by the threshingplace of Araunah the Jebusite. 2 Samuel 24:1: And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

“What evidence do you have to show that Joshua 7 is an abbreviation ? What can you provide to support this claim ? Joshua 7 shows GOD being very unjust and quick to judge Israel. Not only that GOD commanded Joshua and Israel to have Achan and his sons and daughters stoned and burnt. Again, this is not the character of a loving GOD. Not at all.”

It is kind of a well established fact that you could immediately conclude from reading the Bible that it is an abbreviated account of things. You can tell that it is abbreviated by studying Adam, Eve, and the Generation of Adam up to Noah; the generation of Noah is abbreviated, likewise, but, some aspects of Noah's life is not so abbreviated. The story of Abraham is not so abbreviated; but, the story of Issac as compared to Abraham and Jacob is very abbreviated; the story of Moses is probably the most detailed of any person in the Bible, at least as compared to key people of the Old Testament. Further, Chronicles shows that earlier portions of the Bible are missing, thus, yet another indication of abbreviation.

It was explained to you that God knew Achan and his family, as people, in the very paragraph that you quoted as a response for your quote; thus, He could tell whether he was really and actually contrite as compared to Saul under similar circumstances; additionally, as Jesus could tell between Judas and Peter, even though their conduct was quite similar.

“After Adam and Eve had sinned GOD did come after them and punished them with curses that he could have lifted from them after a while but never did.”

This was clarified and explained to you in the very paragraph that you quoted. It's about bad decisions having consequences and the independent consequences of Partaking of the Tree of Knowledge that was likely independent of Adam and Eve's decisions. Further, it was explained that God was disappointed in them, apparently, because they chose to justify their actions instead of confessing their transgression. And, the consequences that God dealt to Adam and Eve was not that great. The consequences actually mostly extended down to the rest of humanity by the altered reality that was created by their decision.

Basically, Adam only went from being comfortable all of his life to having to work for a living and Eve experienced birth pains for the first time. Also, something missing within the abbreviation, and a logical extension is Eve's apparent relations with the Serpent (e.g. I'll put enmity between your seed and the Serpent); sounds like a good story to take up for a move or a tv series; Heaven will likely be a lot more pleasant than some pastors are making it out to be by extracting the way they'd like to see things versus the way things really are within the Bible.

“On top of that, GOD essentially set up Adam and Eve to fail because in the bigger picture his plan was to send Jesus to die for humanity and save us. This means that Adam and Eve was not only set up to fail but was punished very harshly in a situation that did not have to be so as GOD controls the curses.”

But, previously, you said that this wasn't the point that you were trying to make, in response to my pointing out your implication that God used Satan to trick Adam and Eve. A while back, it was explained to you that Jesus was a contingency plan to make up for a possible failure for the purpose of true free will being able to play out. But, then, here we are, your saving face from that point, leading us round about again, just back to my previous point. Adam and Eve weren't punished harshly. The bulk of the punishment fell upon the rest of humanity, where it was dispersed throughout thousands of years of time, where the independent magnitude of partaking of the Tree of Knowledge is at play.

“The entire discussion here started from the nature of GOD's Foreknowledge and Omniscience because it came from a discussion about GOD's Omniscience that I had with Just Sayin. You are just going off on tangents about Christianity because you are unwilling to stay on topic.”

But, that occurred in and around the discussion on the idea of Calvinism. As I said in the paragraph that you're quoting, you're picking a verse from a chapter in Romans that is otherwise about the transformation that one will undergo, after choosing to become Christian, starting from John 3:16, which is entirely rooted in one's free choice decision of rather or not to become Christian and being held accountable for that decision. Thus, a person chooses their salvation so that they can be without excuse during the Great White Throne of Judgment if they are not before the Judgment Seat of Christ; you reach the Judgment Seat of Christ by choosing to become a Christian.

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dshipp17

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Luke 20:27-38:

Then came to him certain of the Sadducees, which deny that there is any resurrection; and they asked him,

28 Saying, Master, Moses wrote unto us, If any man's brother die, having a wife, and he die without children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.

29 There were therefore seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and died without children.

30 And the second took her to wife, and he died childless.

31 And the third took her; and in like manner the seven also: and they left no children, and died.

32 Last of all the woman died also.

33 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife.

34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:

35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

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just_sayin

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2. But what if GOD says he does do both Good and Evil ?Is GOD just defining what is Good or is GOD defining both what is Good and Bad ? I believe GOD does both Good and Bad ? The passage in Isaiah 45:7 says that GOD does all these things. I am inclined to believe that. You say that if GOD allows a child to die but you did not consider if GOD causes a child to die. We was speaking earlier about how GOD causes Earthquakes or Disaster where multiple people die. If it is not GOD's intent to do bad things then why does GOD at times harm people with these Disasters ? Even if GOD is punishing people how is his intent not to harm if he actually kills people ?

But did God say he does both good and evil? I would say that He did not (we've talked about the word used in Isaiah 45), and further that has stated the exact opposite. For the sake of argument let's say God "causes" a child to die. So? No, seriously, I keep asking hoping you'll explain why this is wrong for Him to do. If God is the creator, He can do with His creation as he wants - whether they are guilty or innocent in your estimation. How has God sinned? And who decides what is sin for Him?

3. How do you know our choices have to deviate from GOD's choices for us to have Free Will ? Is it not possible for GOD to create people who freely do the things GOD wants ? Did Jesus have Free Will ? Like I said, if GOD gave us all a mind like Jesus would we not all be freely doing what GOD wants ? Is there anything too hard for GOD ?

Nothing that is a logical possibility is too hard for God. But it seems to be an obvious contradiction to say "you have free will to do whatever you choose but you are only allowed to choose to obey me". If the car dealer tells me I can get a car with any options I want and I ask for air conditioning. When I get my car, I expect it to have air conditioning. Now he can argue - "you don't need air conditioning. You shouldn't use it", but if that's what he agreed to sell me, then my car should have an air conditioner and it should work. God granted us free will - it should work when used.

4. Really ? So then why did Jesus say he came that we have Life and Life more abundantly ? Heck, even John 3:16 says for GOD so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believe in him shall not perish but have "Everlasting Life". So clearly Jesus sacrifice was about Eternal Life. Well according to the holy text it was GOD who cursed Adam and Eve right ? Does not the Bible say that GOD can heal all disease and affliction ? So GOD could give us everlasting life through the Tree of Life and heal us from suffering if he deemed it so.

Jesus salvific act does come with a "gift", but the idea of eternal life is more than mere "temporal existence". Everyone, good or bad, has an eternal existence, according to Judeo-Christian tradition:

At that time Michael, the archangel who stands guard over your nation, will arise. Then there will be a time of anguish greater than any since nations first came into existence. But at that time every one of your people whose name is written in the book will be rescued. Many of those whose bodies lie dead and buried will rise up, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting disgrace. - Daniel 12:1 -2 (NLT)

But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit upon his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate the people as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left.

“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world. For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.’

“Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing? 39 When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?’

“And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters,[f] you were doing it to me!’

“Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons. For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink. I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’

“Then they will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?’

“And he will answer, ‘I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’

“And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.” - Matthew 25:31-46

Broke it up cause the thread was getting long.

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King Saturn

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@dshipp17 said:

@king_saturn:

It is completely and totally relevant as to whether it was Satan versus God who incited the census. If God directed the census, as He did in Exodus and Numbers, then, it would be a lawful census not worthy of God's wrath; if Satan directed the census, then, the Jews did that which was evil in the eyes of God, where, as I said before, David was contrite but the rest who suffered the penalty was not contrite and perished, as a result of their lack of contrition for their evil deeds, not as innocent people, as your argument otherwise attempts to imply.

2 Samuel 23: 20-23: And Benaiah the son of Jehoiada, the son of a valiant man, of Kabzeel, who had done many acts, he slew two lionlike men of Moab: he went down also and slew a lion in the midst of a pit in time of snow: 21 And he slew an Egyptian, a goodly man: and the Egyptian had a spear in his hand; but he went down to him with a staff, and plucked the spear out of the Egyptian's hand, and slew him with his own spear. 22 These things did Benaiah the son of Jehoiada, and had the name among three mighty men. 23 He was more honourable than the thirty, but he attained not to the first three. And David set him over his guard. 2 Samuel 24:14-16: And David said unto Gad, I am in a great strait: let us fall now into the hand of the Lord; for his mercies are great: and let me not fall into the hand of man. 15 So the Lord sent a pestilence upon Israel from the morning even to the time appointed: and there died of the people from Dan even to Beersheba seventy thousand men.16 And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the Lord repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine hand. And the angel of the Lord was by the threshingplace of Araunah the Jebusite. 2 Samuel 24:1: And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

No, it's not relevant at all because whether it was GOD or Satan who incited the Census, the problem is what happens after it is done. What is relevant is that GOD killed 70,000 People over a sin that David committed. You have presented no evidence to show that Israel was at fault by their own sins. It is clear from the passage itself that GOD punished Israel because of what David had done. What makes this situation even worse is when David cries out to GOD in 2 Samul 24:17 saying how he had sinned and he had done wrong but these sheep ( Israel ) what have they done ? You must have forgotten that part in the story. The wrath of GOD came upon Israel because of David's unlawful census not because Israel had sinned.

It is kind of a well established fact that you could immediately conclude from reading the Bible that it is an abbreviated account of things. You can tell that it is abbreviated by studying Adam, Eve, and the Generation of Adam up to Noah; the generation of Noah is abbreviated, likewise, but, some aspects of Noah's life is not so abbreviated. The story of Abraham is not so abbreviated; but, the story of Issac as compared to Abraham and Jacob is very abbreviated; the story of Moses is probably the most detailed of any person in the Bible, at least as compared to key people of the Old Testament. Further, Chronicles shows that earlier portions of the Bible are missing, thus, yet another indication of abbreviation.

It was explained to you that God knew Achan and his family, as people, in the very paragraph that you quoted as a response for your quote; thus, He could tell whether he was really and actually contrite as compared to Saul under similar circumstances; additionally, as Jesus could tell between Judas and Peter, even though their conduct was quite similar.

Established from what ? This seems like you are making stuff up again because the passage in Joshua 7 paints GOD in a bad light. So GOD knew Achan and his Family, it was Achan that stole not his family so why is GOD having Achan's family killed for his sin ? That is the problem. What makes it even worse is Achan confessed his sin so why is GOD not having mercy here ?

This was clarified and explained to you in the very paragraph that you quoted. It's about bad decisions having consequences and the independent consequences of Partaking of the Tree of Knowledge that was likely independent of Adam and Eve's decisions. Further, it was explained that God was disappointed in them, apparently, because they chose to justify their actions instead of confessing their transgression. And, the consequences that God dealt to Adam and Eve was not that great. The consequences actually mostly extended down to the rest of humanity by the altered reality that was created by their decision.

Basically, Adam only went from being comfortable all of his life to having to work for a living and Eve experienced birth pains for the first time. Also, something missing within the abbreviation, and a logical extension is Eve's apparent relations with the Serpent (e.g. I'll put enmity between your seed and the Serpent); sounds like a good story to take up for a move or a tv series; Heaven will likely be a lot more pleasant than some pastors are making it out to be by extracting the way they'd like to see things versus the way things really are within the Bible.

The point was that GOD could have lifted the curses from Adam and Eve at some point but did not. The problem is not that GOD punished them it's how he did and kicking them out of the Garden to never return makes it no better either. Yes, choices have consequence but forgiveness is supposed to be a motif of GOD so why be so harsh here ?

But, previously, you said that this wasn't the point that you were trying to make, in response to my pointing out your implication that God used Satan to trick Adam and Eve. A while back, it was explained to you that Jesus was a contingency plan to make up for a possible failure for the purpose of true free will being able to play out. But, then, here we are, your saving face from that point, leading us round about again, just back to my previous point. Adam and Eve weren't punished harshly. The bulk of the punishment fell upon the rest of humanity, where it was dispersed throughout thousands of years of time, where the independent magnitude of partaking of the Tree of Knowledge is at play.

It was not a point I was making then but I am now. So again, essentially GOD set up Adam and Eve to fail because if GOD had Jesus as a contingency plan then Adam and Eve had no choice other than to fail GOD. You do not think a punishment that is felt through Human history from Adam and Eve is not a serious punishment ? If we could eat from the original Tree of Life this would not be a problem potentially.

But, that occurred in and around the discussion on the idea of Calvinism. As I said in the paragraph that you're quoting, you're picking a verse from a chapter in Romans that is otherwise about the transformation that one will undergo, after choosing to become Christian, starting from John 3:16, which is entirely rooted in one's free choice decision of rather or not to become Christian and being held accountable for that decision. Thus, a person chooses their salvation so that they can be without excuse during the Great White Throne of Judgment if they are not before the Judgment Seat of Christ; you reach the Judgment Seat of Christ by choosing to become a Christian.

Nope, I never brought up Calvinism at all. This discussion was directly about GOD's omniscience and foreknowledge as it flowed from a discussion with Just Sayin. Now you may have your own thoughts about what I was trying to convey but it was only to show how GOD's foreknowledge allows him to know who will be saved and who will not be. Romans 8 was just a reference point.

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@king_saturn said:

But did God say he does both good and evil? I would say that He did not (we've talked about the word used in Isaiah 45), and further that has stated the exact opposite. For the sake of argument let's say God "causes" a child to die. So? No, seriously, I keep asking hoping you'll explain why this is wrong for Him to do. If God is the creator, He can do with His creation as he wants - whether they are guilty or innocent in your estimation. How has God sinned? And who decides what is sin for Him?

Well when we first came across this I used King James Version Bible and it does have GOD saying make Peace and create Evil in Isaiah 45:7. Now even if we used Calamity or Disaster. How is someone who is saying that they create Calamity or Disaster not telling you they do Bad Things ? I am not saying whether or not it is wrong for GOD to cause a Child to Die because technically it is neither wrong nor right for GOD to cause a child to Die. It's just GOD's actions technically. The point I was making though was if GOD himself says he does both Good and Bad actions who are we to dispute that regardless of how we feel about it ?

Nothing that is a logical possibility is too hard for God. But it seems to be an obvious contradiction to say "you have free will to do whatever you choose but you are only allowed to choose to obey me". If the car dealer tells me I can get a car with any options I want and I ask for air conditioning. When I get my car, I expect it to have air conditioning. Now he can argue - "you don't need air conditioning. You shouldn't use it", but if that's what he agreed to sell me, then my car should have an air conditioner and it should work. God granted us free will - it should work when used.

How can it be a contradiction if Jesus existed ? Does not the Father know all things ? Did not the Father know that Jesus would freely choose to obey him in all his ways before he sent him ? If so, why is it too hard for GOD to give us a mind like what Jesus had ? Besides if GOD knows all things including the details of how things would come to be we are technically bound to follow only what GOD knows even if we can freely choose from our human perspective.

Jesus salvific act does come with a "gift", but the idea of eternal life is more than mere "temporal existence". Everyone, good or bad, has an eternal existence, according to Judeo-Christian tradition:

Then why does Jesus speak of Everlasting Life in John 3:16 ? Why was Jesus saying that he came that we would have life more abundantly ? Clearly Jesus sacrifice was about Everlasting Life in a big way.

Broke it up cause the thread was getting long.

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Calvinism

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1 Corinthians 15:22[24]

"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive." (ESV)

All

2 Peter 3:9

"The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance." (ESV)

All

1 Timothy 2:3–6[24]

"This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for ALL men—the testimony given in its proper time." (NIV)

All

1 John 2:2

"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." (NIV)

The Whole World

1 Timothy 4:10[24]

"For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe." (ESV)

All people, especially those who believe

Romans 11:32[24]

"For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." (NIV)

All

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King Saturn

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1 Timothy 4:10[24]

"For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe." (ESV)

All people, especially those who believe

Romans 11:32[24]

"For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." (NIV)

All

I want to deal specifically with these two passages.

1 Timothy 4:10 sounds funny from the ESV translation. It does not make much sense to say GOD is the savior of all people and then say "especially of those who believe". Is there another type of salvation different for believers than against unbelievers if GOD will save us all ?

Romans 11:32 is very interesting. I never read Romans having the passage this way, but usually I read from the KJV and it sounds a little different. This one is problematic for the concept of Free Will, because if we are bound over to disobedience by GOD then we can not freely choose to obey GOD in full as GOD has handicapped us into sin. That just sounds really bizarre for some reason. I get GOD having mercy on us but binding us to disobedience ?

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SpareHeadOne

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@king_saturn:

There could be another type of salvation based on the heart and the conscience.

"""F]or when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves; in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ (Romans 2:14-16)."""

The elect therefore, would not be the only ones saved.

Perhaps God wants to keep humanity as one. One in Christ, One in Adam, one in disobedience, one in redemption One in Christ

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#28214  Edited By jonjizz
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@just_sayin said:
@king_saturn said:

But did God say he does both good and evil? I would say that He did not (we've talked about the word used in Isaiah 45), and further that has stated the exact opposite. For the sake of argument let's say God "causes" a child to die. So? No, seriously, I keep asking hoping you'll explain why this is wrong for Him to do. If God is the creator, He can do with His creation as he wants - whether they are guilty or innocent in your estimation. How has God sinned? And who decides what is sin for Him?

Well when we first came across this I used King James Version Bible and it does have GOD saying make Peace and create Evil in Isaiah 45:7. Now even if we used Calamity or Disaster. How is someone who is saying that they create Calamity or Disaster not telling you they do Bad Things ? I am not saying whether or not it is wrong for GOD to cause a Child to Die because technically it is neither wrong nor right for GOD to cause a child to Die. It's just GOD's actions technically. The point I was making though was if GOD himself says he does both Good and Bad actions who are we to dispute that regardless of how we feel about it ?

Nothing that is a logical possibility is too hard for God. But it seems to be an obvious contradiction to say "you have free will to do whatever you choose but you are only allowed to choose to obey me". If the car dealer tells me I can get a car with any options I want and I ask for air conditioning. When I get my car, I expect it to have air conditioning. Now he can argue - "you don't need air conditioning. You shouldn't use it", but if that's what he agreed to sell me, then my car should have an air conditioner and it should work. God granted us free will - it should work when used.

How can it be a contradiction if Jesus existed ? Does not the Father know all things ? Did not the Father know that Jesus would freely choose to obey him in all his ways before he sent him ? If so, why is it too hard for GOD to give us a mind like what Jesus had ? Besides if GOD knows all things including the details of how things would come to be we are technically bound to follow only what GOD knows even if we can freely choose from our human perspective.

Jesus salvific act does come with a "gift", but the idea of eternal life is more than mere "temporal existence". Everyone, good or bad, has an eternal existence, according to Judeo-Christian tradition:

Then why does Jesus speak of Everlasting Life in John 3:16 ? Why was Jesus saying that he came that we would have life more abundantly ? Clearly Jesus sacrifice was about Everlasting Life in a big way.

Broke it up cause the thread was getting long.

We keep touching on some of the classical arguments about evil and God. If I understand you correctly your reasoning is that if God is omnipotent and omniscient and is also good, then He would not allow evil to exist. Is this basically correct? For me, the question revolves around whether or not God could have sufficient reasons to permit evil to exist. Rather than a Free Will theodicy, cause I don't pretend to know why God does what He does, I am offering a Free Will defense as a possible reason. Every day we see evil, and even permit it, if it serves a greater good. Doctors will inflict pain and suffering to avert greater pain and suffering and to bring healing to a sick child. Are these doctors evil for pulling a dislocated shoulder back into place? Or for amputating a leg before it spreads throughout the body? No.

I am putting out a possible reason, though I freely admit, I do not know for certain. To me it seems that moral beings result in greater good than non-moral things. For instance, it seems logical to me that even a small child with the potential to be selfish is capable of doing many good things while a pebble is less capable of achieving moral goodness, even though it is likely to do less morally evil things.

Which child do you think a mother would want to have - one capable of loving her back, even though the child may disobey and say some cruel things to her, or a child incapable of expressing love or emotion? I'd guess the mother would want the child to be able to experience love, even if it meant, that child would also experience pain and suffering, rather than not being able to express or feel emotions.

In a world without free will or choice, the greatest of goods - love cannot truly be known or experienced. We could not truly experience the love of another if it was not given freely. We could not truly know God's love or truly know or understand Him, or anyone else for that matter - without this capacity. Without love - the capacity for good is greatly diminished. So for love to be a real possibility, there must be free will and with free will comes the risk of hate, betrayal, pain and evil. I speculate that a world with true love is a one with much higher capacity for good than a world without it, even if that loving world also has sin and evil in it, because as the Bible puts it "love covers a multitude of sins" (1 Peter 4:8).

I don't think it is accurate to say that God "creates" evil. He allows it. Evil is at its core a rejection of good and there is no greater good than God. Peter attempts to answer the question of why there is still evil in the world and why God hasn't gotten rid of it. He writes: The Lord isn’t slow about keeping his promises, as some people think he is. In fact, God is patient, because he wants everyone to turn from sin and no one to be lost. (2 Peter 3:9 CEV). Essentially, if God got rid of evil, the first thing he would have to get rid of would be us. We like to think of "evil" as the stuff out there - tidal waves, earthquakes, fires, cancer. But the darkest evils are within us. God's patience is driven by wanting us to reject evil and turn to Him.

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#28216  Edited By dshipp17

@king_saturn:

“You have presented no evidence to show that Israel was at fault by their own sins.”

I know you're trying to be cute here, but, honestly, this statement is just silly and absurd for someone so familiar with Christianity, as a former pastor, as you said of yourself, previously. Generally speaking, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. And, yes, I did present evidence of some type of sin by including verse 1 of Samuel 24, where the anger of God was kindled against the Jews (e.g. and again, unless it's said/stated otherwise, as with the case of Job, people are assumed to have sinned, but, this, the anger of the Lord kindled against Israel, is kind of the key identifier of a previous sin throughout the Old Testament, as I also previously explained); plus, the previous point about some unspecified sin or sins that involved the taking of the census; the taking of the census, in and of itself, was not actually the sin committed. To remind you, God is not the author of sin and confusion, see James 1:13. It was clearly established that the Jews had become ungrateful towards the blessings of David's government and some among the Jews had planned to take part in a rebellion against David, see 2 Samuel 15:1-12 and 2 Samuel 20:1-2, by the time we reach 2 Samuel 24.

“What makes this situation even worse is when David cries out to GOD in 2 Samul 24:17 saying how he had sinned and he had done wrong but these sheep ( Israel ) what have they done ?”

There were specific requirements for how the census should have been taken, according to Exodus 30:12-16. Joshua also didn't understand that someone had sinned among the people. 2 Samuel 24 Verse 1 makes clear that they had sinned in some way (e.g. for one thing, previously, Benaiah had just killed an innocent Egyptian). Additionally, there was constant strife between Israel and Judah, see 2 Samuel 3:27, 18:14, and 20:10, leading up to 2 Samuel 24.

“So GOD knew Achan and his Family, it was Achan that stole not his family so why is GOD having Achan's family killed for his sin ?”

What I said in full and complete context was that God knew each of these individuals' minds or hearts. He knew the planning stages and He knew that they were each guilty of the plot in they're own individual ways and that neither of them were ever actually contrite, despite what they may have said in open.

“The point was that GOD could have lifted the curses from Adam and Eve at some point but did not. The problem is not that GOD punished them it's how he did and kicking them out of the Garden to never return makes it no better either. Yes, choices have consequence but forgiveness is supposed to be a motif of GOD so why be so harsh here ?”

Clearly, your question is rooted in assumptions that God was unjust, when we know that God is a just God. Additionally, it was explained to you that Partaking of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil had its own existential consequences. So, that penalty factored in everything to come to a just concluding penalty determination. And, it was explained to you that the forgiveness was expressed by letting them live, when it was promised that they would die. This last result took into account that Satan had incited them to partake. It was also explained that God was disappointed that they made the wrong choice, given two choices, in trying to justify their actions as opposed to confessing to their mistake. Further, you should know by now the implications to the fact that everything isn't described so you can assume that everything was taken into account, justly, based on God's character.

“It was not a point I was making then but I am now.”

This wouldn't change anything, when it was explained to you at the time that you could have reached certain conclusions at that time by simply conceding a point at the time, as it was unimportant that you just admittedly needed to continue trying to save face. Thus, this discussion would have been much more productive and fruitful, at that time, had you simply stopped saving face. And, you're doing it now in a round about a way, where, again, you just wont stop saving face to concede more points.

“So again, essentially GOD set up Adam and Eve to fail because if GOD had Jesus as a contingency plan then Adam and Eve had no choice other than to fail GOD.”

No, God is not the author of sin and confusion. God set it up so that Adam and Eve could exercise their free will to make a choice, where it was within their ability to make the correct choice, but, they chose the wrong choice (e.g. God could require someone to fast for a set amount of time; however, there may come a situation where that person can either choose to hold to the fast for one more hour or eat something before that last hour is completed; it was well within their ability, but, they exercised their free will to eat an hour earlier than was required to complete the fasting period); thus, Jesus was the contingency for their having exercised their free will to make the wrong choice; the primary element was that they be given a chance to make a choice between options, where only one was the correct choice. Essentially, what you have been doing, during our exchanges, is the sin of imagination against God in order to confuse or poison fragile minds. You know better, but, your draw towards saving face is stronger.

“Now you may have your own thoughts about what I was trying to convey but it was only to show how GOD's foreknowledge allows him to know who will be saved and who will not be. Romans 8 was just a reference point.”

No, Romans 8 is not a reference point for this argument, at all. The context of Romans 8 is what happens to people, once they decide to become Christians in route to their eternal salvation and having/preserving a place for themselves in the Heavenly Kingdom in the eternal afterlife.

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We keep touching on some of the classical arguments about evil and God. If I understand you correctly your reasoning is that if God is omnipotent and omniscient and is also good, then He would not allow evil to exist. Is this basically correct? For me, the question revolves around whether or not God could have sufficient reasons to permit evil to exist. Rather than a Free Will theodicy, cause I don't pretend to know why God does what He does, I am offering a Free Will defense as a possible reason. Every day we see evil, and even permit it, if it serves a greater good. Doctors will inflict pain and suffering to avert greater pain and suffering and to bring healing to a sick child. Are these doctors evil for pulling a dislocated shoulder back into place? Or for amputating a leg before it spreads throughout the body? No.

I am putting out a possible reason, though I freely admit, I do not know for certain. To me it seems that moral beings result in greater good than non-moral things. For instance, it seems logical to me that even a small child with the potential to be selfish is capable of doing many good things while a pebble is less capable of achieving moral goodness, even though it is likely to do less morally evil things.

Which child do you think a mother would want to have - one capable of loving her back, even though the child may disobey and say some cruel things to her, or a child incapable of expressing love or emotion? I'd guess the mother would want the child to be able to experience love, even if it meant, that child would also experience pain and suffering, rather than not being able to express or feel emotions.

In a world without free will or choice, the greatest of goods - love cannot truly be known or experienced. We could not truly experience the love of another if it was not given freely. We could not truly know God's love or truly know or understand Him, or anyone else for that matter - without this capacity. Without love - the capacity for good is greatly diminished. So for love to be a real possibility, there must be free will and with free will comes the risk of hate, betrayal, pain and evil. I speculate that a world with true love is a one with much higher capacity for good than a world without it, even if that loving world also has sin and evil in it, because as the Bible puts it "love covers a multitude of sins" (1 Peter 4:8).

I don't think it is accurate to say that God "creates" evil. He allows it. Evil is at its core a rejection of good and there is no greater good than God. Peter attempts to answer the question of why there is still evil in the world and why God hasn't gotten rid of it. He writes: The Lord isn’t slow about keeping his promises, as some people think he is. In fact, God is patient, because he wants everyone to turn from sin and no one to be lost. (2 Peter 3:9 CEV). Essentially, if God got rid of evil, the first thing he would have to get rid of would be us. We like to think of "evil" as the stuff out there - tidal waves, earthquakes, fires, cancer. But the darkest evils are within us. God's patience is driven by wanting us to reject evil and turn to Him.

Well my position is more of GOD is supposedly stating that he himself does all things in the Bible particularly from Isaiah 45:7 including make peace or create evil. Now if GOD himself is supposedly saying that he can create Evil or create Disaster why should I believe against that ? Yes, GOD can allow evil but if GOD himself is stating in the Bible that he not only allows evil but creates it then I would think GOD does create Evil at times. I think it's a situation of GOD does all things, the Good and the Bad. It would not make sense to say GOD is just Good anyways as you would have to judge GOD to be only Good from some standard. I do think GOD is beyond a standard we can hold him to but we can as Humans measure different actions and behaviors and say whether it be Good or Bad. What makes it more convincing to me is when we have it stated in the Bible as such from supposedly The Almighty.

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@dshipp17 said:

@king_saturn:

I know you're trying to be cute here, but, honestly, this statement is just silly and absurd for someone so familiar with Christianity, as a former pastor, as you said of yourself, previously. Generally speaking, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. And, yes, I did present evidence of some type of sin by including verse 1 of Samuel 24, where the anger of God was kindled against the Jews (e.g. and again, unless it's said/stated otherwise, as with the case of Job, people are assumed to have sinned, but, this, the anger of the Lord kindled against Israel, is kind of the key identifier of a previous sin throughout the Old Testament, as I also previously explained); plus, the previous point about some unspecified sin or sins that involved the taking of the census; the taking of the census, in and of itself, was not actually the sin committed. To remind you, God is not the author of sin and confusion, see James 1:13. It was clearly established that the Jews had become ungrateful towards the blessings of David's government and some among the Jews had planned to take part in a rebellion against David, see 2 Samuel 15:1-12 and 2 Samuel 20:1-2, by the time we reach 2 Samuel 24.

I meant in context with the passage itself. Yes, all have sinned according to Romans 3 but GOD is still merciful to us all to some extent and considering the passage here in 2 Samuel 24, Israel at that particular point had not been shown to sin. In the passage in 2 Samuel 24:1 you mention, you forgot to say how it also says that GOD incited David to take a census. In other words, GOD was angry with Israel so he encouraged David to sin ? How does that even make sense ? Yet, the passage itself states this directly. There is no mention of Satan inciting a census until 1 Chronicles 21, the retelling of the story. Also, in the story it clearly shows in 2 Samuel 24:10, that David was grieved by the Sin he committed by taking an unlawful census and then afterwards the Prophet comes to him with three choices as the punishment for his sin. Once David chooses, the Angel of GOD brings down destruction that kills 70,000 Israelites. There is never a mention of Israel sinning. Plus, near the end of the event in 2 Samuel 24:17, David cries out to GOD saying he had sinned by Israel what had they done ? Why do you keep forgetting this ? Why do you look over very important pieces to the story that lays out what is happening ?

There were specific requirements for how the census should have been taken, according to Exodus 30:12-16. Joshua also didn't understand that someone had sinned among the people. 2 Samuel 24 Verse 1 makes clear that they had sinned in some way (e.g. for one thing, previously, Benaiah had just killed an innocent Egyptian). Additionally, there was constant strife between Israel and Judah, see 2 Samuel 3:27, 18:14, and 20:10, leading up to 2 Samuel 24.

So that makes it right ? GOD is right to kill 70,000 people because David unlawfully took a census ? Where in the story does it say that Israel had not followed the requirements ? It is only David and how is sin of the Census comes up that brings about this punishment. In Fact, in 1 Chronicles 21:7, the passage clearly says that David's census displeased the LORD so he punished Israel. 2 Samuel 24 says that GOD was angry with Israel but it also says that GOD incited David to sin. There is the problem. Also, if GOD was angry with Israel beforehand why did he not punish Israel without having David take the unlawful census ? Why did GOD need to have David sin just to punish Israel ? Also, GOD causing David to sin is against GOD's nature and that is implied in 2 Samuel 24:1.

What I said in full and complete context was that God knew each of these individuals' minds or hearts. He knew the planning stages and He knew that they were each guilty of the plot in they're own individual ways and that neither of them were ever actually contrite, despite what they may have said in open.

That's total speculation. The passage says nothing about Achan's family being guilty of anything. In fact, in Joshua 7:15 says that whoever transgressed, he and all that he hath shall be burnt with fire.

Clearly, your question is rooted in assumptions that God was unjust, when we know that God is a just God. Additionally, it was explained to you that Partaking of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil had its own existential consequences. So, that penalty factored in everything to come to a just concluding penalty determination. And, it was explained to you that the forgiveness was expressed by letting them live, when it was promised that they would die. This last result took into account that Satan had incited them to partake. It was also explained that God was disappointed that they made the wrong choice, given two choices, in trying to justify their actions as opposed to confessing to their mistake. Further, you should know by now the implications to the fact that everything isn't described so you can assume that everything was taken into account, justly, based on God's character.

Well I believe GOD can be just, but GOD can at times be unjust. Look at Joshua 7 again, GOD had Achan's sons and daughters killed for his own sin. That is unjust. Then there are times GOD can be just as well. The penalties that came from eating from the Forbidden Tree all came from GOD. It was GOD who cursed Adam and Eve and has this horrible curse that is upon humanity from them. It was GOD who kicked Adam and Eve out of the Garden. It was GOD who cursed the Ground even though the Ground did nothing wrong. GOD could have forgiven Adam and Eve after time.

This wouldn't change anything, when it was explained to you at the time that you could have reached certain conclusions at that time by simply conceding a point at the time, as it was unimportant that you just admittedly needed to continue trying to save face. Thus, this discussion would have been much more productive and fruitful, at that time, had you simply stopped saving face. And, you're doing it now in a round about a way, where, again, you just wont stop saving face to concede more points.

Why should I concede any points when you have been speculating on so many points ?

No, God is not the author of sin and confusion. God set it up so that Adam and Eve could exercise their free will to make a choice, where it was within their ability to make the correct choice, but, they chose the wrong choice (e.g. God could require someone to fast for a set amount of time; however, there may come a situation where that person can either choose to hold to the fast for one more hour or eat something before that last hour is completed; it was well within their ability, but, they exercised their free will to eat an hour earlier than was required to complete the fasting period); thus, Jesus was the contingency for their having exercised their free will to make the wrong choice; the primary element was that they be given a chance to make a choice between options, where only one was the correct choice. Essentially, what you have been doing, during our exchanges, is the sin of imagination against God in order to confuse or poison fragile minds. You know better, but, your draw towards saving face is stronger.

How could Adam and Eve exercise Free Will if GOD had already set Jesus to be salvation for Humanity beforehand ? Adam and Eve was bound to disobedience if GOD had already known he would need Jesus beforehand. The sin of Imagination against GOD ? Here we go again with Speculation. Think of it this way remember in Matthew 26 when Jesus was talking to Peter at the Supper and Jesus told Peter before the cock crows you will deny me three times. Could Peter possibly do anything other than what Jesus said he would do ? Could Jesus have been wrong ? Likewise is such if Yahweh knew he would need to send Jesus before the foundations of the world. Remember Ephesians 1:4 ?

No, Romans 8 is not a reference point for this argument, at all. The context of Romans 8 is what happens to people, once they decide to become Christians in route to their eternal salvation and having/preserving a place for themselves in the Heavenly Kingdom in the eternal afterlife.

Romans 8:29 specifically says GOD predestined them he foreknew to be conformed to the image of his Son. This line is dealing with GOD's Omniscience and Foreknowledge of things. How GOD knows beforehand who he will save and conform to his Son and whom he will not obviously. It's more than what just happens when you become Christian, it's about how GOD foreknows who will become Christian. The passage is clear.

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1 Jn 3:8

he who is doing the sin, of the devil he is, because from the beginning the devil doth sin; for this was the Son of God manifested, that he may break up the works of the devil

Devil sinned from the beginning

Jn 8:44

'Ye are of a father -- the devil, and the desires of your father ye will to do; he was a man-slayer from the beginning, and in the truth he hath not stood, because there is no truth in him; when one may speak the falsehood, of his own he speaketh, because he is a liar -- also his father.

Devil was a murderer from the beginning

God created Helel evil.

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#28220  Edited By dshipp17

@king_saturn:

“I meant in context with the passage itself. Yes, all have sinned according to Romans 3 but GOD is still merciful to us all to some extent and considering the passage here in 2 Samuel 24, Israel at that particular point had not been shown to sin. In the passage in 2 Samuel 24:1 you mention, you forgot to say how it also says that GOD incited David to take a census. In other words, GOD was angry with Israel so he encouraged David to sin ? How does that even make sense ? Yet, the passage itself states this directly.”

2 Samuel 24:1 says that the anger of the Lord was kindled against the Jews, indicating that a sin had been committed by the Jews, as the blow horn of sorts for the Old Testament. The Jews were continuously in sin, despite actions by God that included a 3 year famine, leading into the census. Thus, there was indeed sins taking place within this specific passage.

I'd already explained this as a translation and abbreviation, as 1 Chronicles makes it clear that Satan incited the census. I even cited Job, indicating that the people were attributing the works of Satan and his demons onto God. The explanation is explained because Nathan wrote 2 Samuel and Ezra wrote 1 Chronicles. Nathan tended to explain things under the lens that God controls all things (e.g. kind of like your taking the verse from Romans 8 out of context), irrespective of the circumstances, but, Ezra wanted to attribute evil to Satan and how he can sometimes function as a tool of God, as in the case involving Job (e.g. something closer to my take); thus, because we have James 1:13 now at our disposal, we have another reason to know that it was in fact Satan who incited the census, as is consistent with his character; as such, Ezra was somewhat wise beyond both his years and the knowledge of people, at that time, while Nathan was a bit more primitive in his interpretation and more like the people of his time (e.g. or, things were simply lost in the abbreviation which would have included any additional commentary that Nathan had added; sort of leaving the 'but' or 'however' parts out). The contradiction is really more against God's know character as not being the author of sin and confusion.

“Also, in the story it clearly shows in 2 Samuel 24:10, that David was grieved by the Sin he committed by taking an unlawful census and then afterwards the Prophet comes to him with three choices as the punishment for his sin.”

David was aggrieved for lack of a full understanding of the situation, as compared to God. Essentially, David was being sorry for the one thing that was his own fault, while God was also concerned about the continuous and ongoing sin of the Jewish people, at the time. Pretty similar to Job not fully understanding why the sudden onslaught of bad luck against him that he attributed as God's anger at him for something unknown to him and investigating the cause, while something else was at play which was his being attacked by Satan in his trying to make an illustration against Job for God to see, all based on his negative view of humanity that sprang from his envy of humanity.

“Plus, near the end of the event in 2 Samuel 24:17, David cries out to GOD saying he had sinned by Israel what had they done ? Why do you keep forgetting this ? Why do you look over very important pieces to the story that lays out what is happening ?”

Based on his similar lack of full understanding of the situation relative to God, Job made similar statements; except, David had some reason to possibly suspect, based on the famine that had just completed it's course; David failed to suspect similar to how Joshua was able to suspect that something might be off; but, Job was all clear, as God had declared his situation clean so much different than David's and Joshua's situations.

“So that makes it right ? GOD is right to kill 70,000 people because David unlawfully took a census ? Where in the story does it say that Israel had not followed the requirements ?”

This point was a supplement; the Jews were in sin, as 2 Samuel 24:1 said the anger of the Lord was kindled against the Jews; for one, this could be an indication of the number of people who were plotting a rebellion against David. This is God Himself laying out judgment, not just some human who became a dictator and decided to commit mass genocide, as you statement or rhetorical questions give such an impression, as on the false premise that the Jews were innocent and being punished for the sin of David.

“ There is the problem. Also, if GOD was angry with Israel beforehand why did he not punish Israel without having David take the unlawful census ?”

Well, this is wrong. God was punishing Israel for their ongoing, continuous sins on an ongoing basis, see the previously Scripture quotes and 2 Samuel 21:1.

“That's total speculation. The passage says nothing about Achan's family being guilty of anything. In fact, in Joshua 7:15 says that whoever transgressed, he and all that he hath shall be burnt with fire.”

If you believe that this is speculation, what is supporting your arguments stemming from Romans 8:29? in your desire to save face, you're twisting yourself into pretzels, as I previously pointed out. This statement is like one of the primary understandings of the character of God; this isn't speculation; this is one of God's abilities. God followed the planning of both Achan and his family from the initial seeds of the plot and really had foreknowledge of it before the foundations of the earth, since you want to being using something like Romans 8:29 when it appears to suit your desire to save face rather than concede points.

“Well I believe GOD can be just, but GOD can at times be unjust.”

You can only think this, because you think that you're somehow supporting your sin of imagination against God. God is just and fair. God isn't a person that you can compare to an actual person, as I previously explained.

“The penalties that came from eating from the Forbidden Tree all came from GOD. It was GOD who cursed Adam and Eve and has this horrible curse that is upon humanity from them. It was GOD who kicked Adam and Eve out of the Garden. It was GOD who cursed the Ground even though the Ground did nothing wrong. GOD could have forgiven Adam and Eve after time.”

You're still refusing to listen. The Tree of Knowledge had it's own existential effects/consequences that had the more lasting effects on reality, as, this reality is not the one that God had originally created. What you point out are penalties that really only effected Adam and Eve. But, the negative effects upon humanity, as a whole, is partly because this isn't the reality that God had originally created, before Adam and Eve engaged with the Tree of Knowledge.

“How could Adam and Eve exercise Free Will if GOD had already set Jesus to be salvation for Humanity beforehand ? Adam and Eve was bound to disobedience if GOD had already known he would need Jesus beforehand.”

No, this isn't correct in at least one respect: Adam and Eve were not bound by anything. Once they made a choice to use their free will to select an option different from the one that they knew was correct, they then set into effect a contingency plan that was Jesus; and, after this, in a more loose way, humanity was sort of bound to a set outcome leading to Jesus coming to save humanity from their sins. The end of the Bible then describes the circumstances stances that represented a correct or intended reality that God created, in the New Heaven and New earth, where, this time, only the Tree of Life will be present.

“Think of it this way remember in Matthew 26 when Jesus was talking to Peter at the Supper and Jesus told Peter before the cock crows you will deny me three times. Could Peter possibly do anything other than what Jesus said he would do ? Could Jesus have been wrong ?”

Well, the answer is now more available, where I cleared up your incorrect conclusion that Adam and Eve were not bound to their situation; Adam and Eve existed before the contingency involving Jesus came into play, while Peter was well entrenched within this contingency so much so that he was right near it (e.g. basically like the influences of a supermassive black hole; Adam and Eve was at the point where they could choose to avoid the supermassive black hole, but, Peter was already well within the event horizon; Satan had already done all that might have been possible to alter the event by first inspiring King Herod to have baby Jesus killed and the more fruitless attempt to successfully try tempting adult Jesus in the desert). Even had Peter not sub come to the fear, it would likely not have changed anything; either Peter would have been crucified along side Jesus, executed at a different time, or something else entirely, but, Jesus was already well within His designed fate.

“How GOD knows beforehand who he will save and conform to his Son and whom he will not obviously. It's more than what just happens when you become Christian, it's about how GOD foreknows who will become Christian. The passage is clear.”

God can know who He can save by witnessing the ones who elect to follow John 3:16; the will of the Father is now towards those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, as, we are now in the New Testament because of Jesus' success on our behalf. As I said, Jesus also seems to represent paradoxes, if you prefer to view things more through a Calvinistic. Again, the context of Romans 8, as a whole, is what happens to the people who elect to follow John 3:16 on their path to becoming Christians. But, I still challenge you to come forward with a case as to whether you mean that people are being singled out, once they have met the requirements to become Christians (e.g. contrition and sincerity). And, we have 1 John 1:9 for people who backslide and need forgiveness, which is pretty much everyone who becomes Christian; becoming Christian doesn't mean that you become perfect; we all have our sin weakness or weaknesses, where, I aired my laundry already, in order to both make and explore this point with you and others.

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#28221  Edited By SpareHeadOne

@dshipp17:

How soon will I become perfect if I follow your way?

Like two days or three?

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@dshipp17 said:

@king_saturn:

2 Samuel 24:1 says that the anger of the Lord was kindled against the Jews, indicating that a sin had been committed by the Jews, as the blow horn of sorts for the Old Testament. The Jews were continuously in sin, despite actions by God that included a 3 year famine, leading into the census. Thus, there was indeed sins taking place within this specific passage.

I'd already explained this as a translation and abbreviation, as 1 Chronicles makes it clear that Satan incited the census. I even cited Job, indicating that the people were attributing the works of Satan and his demons onto God. The explanation is explained because Nathan wrote 2 Samuel and Ezra wrote 1 Chronicles. Nathan tended to explain things under the lens that God controls all things (e.g. kind of like your taking the verse from Romans 8 out of context), irrespective of the circumstances, but, Ezra wanted to attribute evil to Satan and how he can sometimes function as a tool of God, as in the case involving Job (e.g. something closer to my take); thus, because we have James 1:13 now at our disposal, we have another reason to know that it was in fact Satan who incited the census, as is consistent with his character; as such, Ezra was somewhat wise beyond both his years and the knowledge of people, at that time, while Nathan was a bit more primitive in his interpretation and more like the people of his time (e.g. or, things were simply lost in the abbreviation which would have included any additional commentary that Nathan had added; sort of leaving the 'but' or 'however' parts out). The contradiction is really more against God's know character as not being the author of sin and confusion.

Again, 2 Samuel 24:1 says that GOD incited David to take a Census meaning GOD encouraged David to sin. Why do you keep overlooking this ? These words themselves are not in character with GOD. Why is it you accept part of the scripture as true but not the other ?

Yes, 1 Chronicles 21 does say that Satan incited David to take a Census. It also says that David's command to take a Census is what cause GOD to punish Israel, not their own sin. I mean how many times do I have to keep saying this ? Read 1 Chronicles 21:7 it's there is plain sight. Even if we used GOD had Satan incite David to take a Census. That still means GOD encouraged David to sin through using Satan to do his dirty work.

David was aggrieved for lack of a full understanding of the situation, as compared to God. Essentially, David was being sorry for the one thing that was his own fault, while God was also concerned about the continuous and ongoing sin of the Jewish people, at the time. Pretty similar to Job not fully understanding why the sudden onslaught of bad luck against him that he attributed as God's anger at him for something unknown to him and investigating the cause, while something else was at play which was his being attacked by Satan in his trying to make an illustration against Job for God to see, all based on his negative view of humanity that sprang from his envy of humanity.

That's total speculation. Especially when considering the context of events that happen in the story itself.

Based on his similar lack of full understanding of the situation relative to God, Job made similar statements; except, David had some reason to possibly suspect, based on the famine that had just completed it's course; David failed to suspect similar to how Joshua was able to suspect that something might be off; but, Job was all clear, as God had declared his situation clean so much different than David's and Joshua's situations.

This is totally speculative. In 1 Chronicles 21:7 it clearly says that David's command was what caused GOD to punish Israel not their own sin. Should I believe you or what the Bible says ?

This point was a supplement; the Jews were in sin, as 2 Samuel 24:1 said the anger of the Lord was kindled against the Jews; for one, this could be an indication of the number of people who were plotting a rebellion against David. This is God Himself laying out judgment, not just some human who became a dictator and decided to commit mass genocide, as you statement or rhetorical questions give such an impression, as on the false premise that the Jews were innocent and being punished for the sin of David.

Again, with these half truths. Yes, the passage says GOD was angry at Israel it also says that GOD incited David to take an unlawful Census. GOD encouraged David to sin according to the Passage.

Well, this is wrong. God was punishing Israel for their ongoing, continuous sins on an ongoing basis, see the previously Scripture quotes and 2 Samuel 21:1.

The passage does not imply this at all. It says specifically in 1 Chronicles 21:7 why GOD punished Israel and it was not because of their sin. It was because of David's command to take the unlawful census.

If you believe that this is speculation, what is supporting your arguments stemming from Romans 8:29? in your desire to save face, you're twisting yourself into pretzels, as I previously pointed out. This statement is like one of the primary understandings of the character of God; this isn't speculation; this is one of God's abilities. God followed the planning of both Achan and his family from the initial seeds of the plot and really had foreknowledge of it before the foundations of the earth, since you want to being using something like Romans 8:29 when it appears to suit your desire to save face rather than concede points.

What is supporting my argument that GOD has foreknowledge and is omniscient ? It literally says in the next verse also about how GOD predestined those he foreknows. Heck, I just gave you Ephesians 1:5 where Paul was writing saying GOD predestined us into adoption into bring us into Jesus Christ. I mean what more do you need other than the Holy Text itself telling you ? Twisting what ? I said from the Jump, that GOD was Omniscient and had Foreknowledge, you have been going all over the place about this. Even if GOD knew from beforehand what Achan would do, it was Achan who stole the accursed thing and not his family. So GOD was unjust in this situation having Achan and his sons and daughters burnt up.

You can only think this, because you think that you're somehow supporting your sin of imagination against God. God is just and fair. God isn't a person that you can compare to an actual person, as I previously explained.

Sin of Imagination ? Am I imagining Isaiah 45:7 where it has GOD saying that he can make peace or create evil ( Disaster ) ? Am I imagining Joshua 7 where GOD had Achan's sons and daughters killed for sin own sin ? Am I imagining 1 Chronicles 21 where the passage says that GOD punished Israel because of David's command and 70,000 men died ? If GOD himself says he makes peace and creates evil, he is telling you what he does as stated in Isaiah 45. Like I said, should I believe you or the Bible ?

You're still refusing to listen. The Tree of Knowledge had it's own existential effects/consequences that had the more lasting effects on reality, as, this reality is not the one that God had originally created. What you point out are penalties that really only effected Adam and Eve. But, the negative effects upon humanity, as a whole, is partly because this isn't the reality that God had originally created, before Adam and Eve engaged with the Tree of Knowledge.

But those penalties I gave are in the Bible and as such was given by GOD. GOD did not have to give those penalties, he could have given other ones if he deemed it so.

No, this isn't correct in at least one respect: Adam and Eve were not bound by anything. Once they made a choice to use their free will to select an option different from the one that they knew was correct, they then set into effect a contingency plan that was Jesus; and, after this, in a more loose way, humanity was sort of bound to a set outcome leading to Jesus coming to save humanity from their sins. The end of the Bible then describes the circumstances stances that represented a correct or intended reality that God created, in the New Heaven and New earth, where, this time, only the Tree of Life will be present.

How could Adam and Eve set into effect a contingency plan for Jesus when the Bible itself says that GOD had Jesus set up before the foundation of the world ? How does that make sense ? You even admit that humanity was bound to a set outcome and yet you say Adam and Eve was not bound by anything ?

Well, the answer is now more available, where I cleared up your incorrect conclusion that Adam and Eve were not bound to their situation; Adam and Eve existed before the contingency involving Jesus came into play, while Peter was well entrenched within this contingency so much so that he was right near it (e.g. basically like the influences of a supermassive black hole; Adam and Eve was at the point where they could choose to avoid the supermassive black hole, but, Peter was already well within the event horizon; Satan had already done all that might have been possible to alter the event by first inspiring King Herod to have baby Jesus killed and the more fruitless attempt to successfully try tempting adult Jesus in the desert). Even had Peter not sub come to the fear, it would likely not have changed anything; either Peter would have been crucified along side Jesus, executed at a different time, or something else entirely, but, Jesus was already well within His designed fate.

Adam and Eve avoiding black holes ? Well the Bible says on multiple occasions how GOD set up Jesus and chose humans before the foundation of the world. I do not know what else to tell you.

God can know who He can save by witnessing the ones who elect to follow John 3:16; the will of the Father is now towards those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, as, we are now in the New Testament because of Jesus' success on our behalf. As I said, Jesus also seems to represent paradoxes, if you prefer to view things more through a Calvinistic. Again, the context of Romans 8, as a whole, is what happens to the people who elect to follow John 3:16 on their path to becoming Christians. But, I still challenge you to come forward with a case as to whether you mean that people are being singled out, once they have met the requirements to become Christians (e.g. contrition and sincerity). And, we have 1 John 1:9 for people who backslide and need forgiveness, which is pretty much everyone who becomes Christian; becoming Christian doesn't mean that you become perfect; we all have our sin weakness or weaknesses, where, I aired my laundry already, in order to both make and explore this point with you and others.

Well the Bible itself uses words like foreknowledge and predestined. I mean that sounds a lot like GOD is already had his elected chosen beforehand. GOD knows whom he will save and whom he will not. Perhaps spareheadone is onto something about GOD will save all in some way. More to explore there.

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1 Cor 3

12If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13his workmanship will be evident, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will prove the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as if through the flames.

All people will be burnt by the fire on "The Day"

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Menos_Kegare

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So, what other religions are going around on The Vine?

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SpareHeadOne

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jonjizz

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#28226  Edited By jonjizz
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well that's ironic, but i agree... we're just brains trying to understand the world around us, falsity SHOULD be disgusting to us, especially the scourge of religion, based on nothing but words.

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SpareHeadOne

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Christ, to whom, in whom, and for whom are all things will reconcile all things unto God (Colossians 1:15-20).

He makes all things new. (Rev. 21:5)

Hence His work is the restitution of all things (Acts 3:21);

He is Heir of all things (Hebrews 1:2);

in Him not only all nations will be blessed (Galatians 3:8),

but even every family of the earth will be blessed (Gen 12:32; 28:14);

for the Father has given Him authority over all flesh, to give to whosoever was given to Him eternal life (John 17:2);

and so all flesh shall see the salvation of God (Luke 3:6)

since the Father has given all things into His hands. (John 3:35)

Therefore, contrary to popular Christian opinion, we do not find billions in a Hell cursing God but we find every creature which is in heaven, and on earth, and UNDER the earth saying blessing and honour and glory and power be unto Him that sits upon the throne and unto the Lamb (Rev. 5:13).

We find every knee of things in heaven and earth, and under the earth, bends to Him and every tongue confesses Him as their Lord (Philippians 2:10)

and we know that no one can confess Jesus as Lord except by the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:3).

For God, Whose counsel is immutable (Hebrews 6:17),

Whose attitude towards His enemies is love unchanging (Luke 6:27-35),

will have all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth (1 Timothy 2:4, KJV);

and all to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9);

and has shut all up unto unbelief, in order that he may show mercy upon all (Romans 11:32);

for (out) of Him, as Source, and unto (or into) Him, as End, are all things whatsoever (Romans 11:36);

and He has, therefore, put all things into subjection under Christ's feet (Ephesians 1:22).

And so we are assured that God will gather into one all things in Christ (Ephesians 1:10);

and His grace comes upon all men unto justification of life (Romans 5:18).

So Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands (John 13:3), promises by His Cross to draw (drag in the Greek) all men unto Himself (John 12:32).

For having, as stated, received all things from the Father (John 3:35),

all that was given come to Him shall come to Him and He will lose absolutely no one (John 6:37-39); but if any stray, He goes after that which is lost till He find it (Luke 15:4).

Despite the fact that many of God’s chosen and elect believe God’s hand is too short to save (Isaiah 50:2)

God’s hand is not too short to save (Isaiah 59:1; 63:5).

He comes in order that all men may believe (John 1:17);

that the world, through Him, may be saved (John 3:17);

His grace brings salvation to all men (Titus 2:11);

for He takes away the sin of the world (John 1:29);

gives His flesh for it's Life (John 6:51);

and, because the gifts and calling of God are without Repentance (Romans 9:29), He gives life to the world (John 6:33);

is the light of the world (John 8:12);

is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world (1John 2:2);

is the Savior of all men (1Timothy 4:10);

destroys the works of the devil, not some of them only (1John 3:8);

abolishes death (2Timothy 1:10);

puts all His enemies under His feet including death (1 Cor. 15:26),

is manifest to put away sin (Hebrews 9:26);

and thus subduing all things unto Himself (Philippians 3:21;

the context clearly shows this subjection to be conformity to Himself); does not forget the dead, but takes the gospel to Hades (1Peter 3:19);

of which He holds the keys (Revelation 1:18); for He is the same (Savior) for ever (Hebrews 13:8);

thus even the dead are evangelized (1Peter 4:6).

Thus all are made alive in Him (1Corinthians 15:22);

for Christ finishes, completes His work (John 17:4; 19:30):

restores all things (Acts 3:21); and there is no more curse (Revelation 22:2-3);

for the creation is delivered from the bondage of corruption (Romans 8:21);

and so comes the end when Christ delivers up the Kingdom to God, Who is then All in All because ALL God’s enemies are defeated, the last enemy being death, NOT eternally alive being endlessly punished. (1Corinthians 15:24-28).

Salvation is a gift from God, it is not of works lest anyone be found boasting (Eph 2:8)

and that gift has been given to all men despite the fact that some of God’s own people don’t like such generous grace. (Rom. 5:8; Matt. 5:1-16)

We can be assured of all these wonderful and glorious things because nothing is too difficult for Him (Luke 1:37)

and while many things are impossible with man, nothing is impossible with God. (Matt. 19:26)

Furthermore, God is love (1 John 4:8),

a love that love never fails (1 Cor. 13:8),

a love that lays down His life for not only His own, but His enemies as well and commands His disciples to do likewise.. (Matt. 5:38-48)

Therefore, for God to endlessly punish His enemies would make Him a hypocrite commanding less powerful and less loving human beings to do what He is not willing to do. (Matt. 23)

There is nothing that can withstand His will and no plan of His can be thwarted. (Job 4:42)

The Son came to save the world and not condemn it (Luke 5:59).

Jesus asked the Father to forgive those who crucified Him (all of us) (Luke 23:34)

The Father has laid the iniquity of us all upon the Lamb of God (Isaiah 53:6).

Jesus died for all of us. (John 1:29)

To punish us now would be double jeopardy. Indeed, we can enter into His peace, believing that it is indeed finished! (John 19:30)

The gift of life has been given to everyone. (Rom. 5:18)

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@menos_kegare:

Yes I am an Efe Pygmy Bushman and I follow, Efe who went into the underworld and cut his way out so that when we die we may follow him out of the Serpent of death and go with him to his fathers house.

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dshipp17

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#28230  Edited By dshipp17

@king_saturn:

“Again, 2 Samuel 24:1 says that GOD incited David to take a Census meaning GOD encouraged David to sin. Why do you keep overlooking this ? These words themselves are not in character with GOD. Why is it you accept part of the scripture as true but not the other ?”

I haven't overlooked anything; but, rather, it's you who wont listen because you don't want to stop saving face. I already explained that 1 Chronicles 21 clearly explains that Satan incited David to sin via the census. It was then clarified, because of the two separate authors, pointing out how Job had attributed Satan's acts against him to God, due to how people thought during the time that Nathan or Gad put together 2 Samuel, but, Ezra corrected this erroneous phrasing of what happened in 1 Chronicles 24. I then provided you with James 1:13, which says that God isn't the author of sin and confusion; however, these are Satan's specialties. Thus, based on this, any sensible person would then be lead to seek out the error in their judgment within a thought process that would bring one to a conclusion that God would have actually incited David to sin, where, such isn't a correct possibility to be exploring, because of Scriptures such as James 1:13. Thus, you haven't demonstrated that you have factored in these explanations simply by asking the same questions, as if I had never brought these things up to you somehow. With that in mind, it's starting to look like this is a matter of maturity that you need to develop in order to learn, as saving face is causing you not to move forward with this discussion, as anyone else would otherwise have done under these circumstances.

“Yes, 1 Chronicles 21 does say that Satan incited David to take a Census. It also says that David's command to take a Census is what cause GOD to punish Israel, not their own sin.”

As previously explained, 1 Chronicles 21 explained, or started off with the phrase “and the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel”, where this phrase is repeatedly used many times throughout the Old Testament, after the Jews had done that which was evil in the eyes of God; therefore, they were actually being punished for their own sins. I explained that David erroneously concluded that Israel was innocent and that the cause of everything was his decision to take the census, even comparing his situation to the situations of Job and Joshua. However, you're repeating yourself, as if this clarification was never made, which would be an indicator as to whether you'd properly processed the explanations that you've been receiving. While David said such, God did not validate his conclusion with an agreement, as He did in the case of Joshua, another indicator that what you're saying, that God was punishing Israel for David's transgression, is simply incorrect, where these were initially brought to bear to show that you were erroneous with this suggestion. Again, this is an issue of maturity with you, where you can just simply leave the efforts at saving face behind and concede the points that were never there or correct in the first place.

“Even if we used GOD had Satan incite David to take a Census. That still means GOD encouraged David to sin through using Satan to do his dirty work.”

To relieve yourself of the sin of imagination, this is precisely what you should be doing, because of Scriptures like James 1:13, where inciting sin is the character of Satan, and not God. There is this saying, Satan tempts and God permits. God certainly didn't direct Satan specifically to incite David to sin; God just permitted Satan to proceed to punish Israel, where Satan decided to tempt Israel, in course to punishing Israel in whatever way Satan decided for himself, where God was also in the midst of punishing Israel for ongoing and continuous sin. You reached this concluding thought by simply repeating yourself, as if nothing had been clarified for you, even though it's been done in multiple iterations for you at this time.

“That's total speculation. Especially when considering the context of events that happen in the story itself.”

I laid out a context that was otherwise totally and completely rooted in fact. I did this, partly due to what James 1:13 instructs us. If you're reaching a conclusion that seems to be taking Satan's specialty and attributes from him and instead attributing those to God, where Satan's involvement is as plan as day for any reader, you obviously need to reevaluate your conclusion for error, desperately and immediately, where you've been twice warned that you were guilty of the sin of imagination in your pursuit to continue saving face, when you can simply abandon that pursuit for your own good and salvation. The context is that Israel was sinning and Satan inciting David to take the census. You're just getting lost in your own phrasing, because you're repeating yourself in an effort to continue to save face, despite the clarity of the context at this stages, after so many iterations now.

“The passage does not imply this at all. It says specifically in 1 Chronicles 21:7 why GOD punished Israel and it was not because of their sin. It was because of David's command to take the unlawful census.”

Here, you're moving back and forth from 2 Samuel 24 and 1 Chronicles 21, where both are necessary to fully understand the context. 1 Chronicles 21 is a type of summary for 2 Samuel 24, which says that Israel was in continuous sin (and in what ways they were sinning) and David erroneously concluding that it was his actions that should lead to any actions from God, where God didn't validate David's erroneous conclusion that Israel was free of any sin. One way to correctly look at it is that God punished Israel in David's eyes while He punished Israel for its own ongoing sins.

“What is supporting my argument that GOD has foreknowledge and is omniscient ?”

Well, sure, as the context of Romans 8 is what happens to people who follow John 3:16 towards a decision to become Christians, using their free will. The statement also repeated your case to make, if you're suggesting that people are weeded out of their salvation, similar to the employment application process. The matter is that you can't have it both ways to save face: basically, are you coming from a Calvinistic perspective, while saying you're not on their side, but, still repeating this verse, even though the context of Romans 8 is about a person's free choice to decide whether to become Christian or not, and the resulting consequences of both decisions? In this respect, God's foreknowledge of things could not be directing a certain outcome, if that is what you're trying to imply.

“Even if GOD knew from beforehand what Achan would do, it was Achan who stole the accursed thing and not his family. So GOD was unjust in this situation having Achan and his sons and daughters burnt up.”

Here, again, you're repeating yourself even after you got an explanation. Normal human logic is to move ahead with the conversation, based on that explanation, as it addressed this point that isn't there. God punished both Achan and his family based on their own individual circumstances. Based on your other argument regarding God's foreknowledge, you should know that Achan's family wasn't being judged only because of Achan's actions. I even provided the similar situation of Saul, making my case that contrition moves God, where God was able to tell whether Achan and each member of his family were actually contrite for their actions, when they came forward as the guilty party being sought out by Joshua, where locating the guilty party was actually guided and directed by God. I actually explained that it is not helpful to anything to limit God to the limitations of a person, simply to save face, even after otherwise trying to argue for God's foreknowledge to save face in another case, right in the same series of iteration, in recycling stuff from the atheists who don't even understand, or care to understand, the scholarly support and evidence for what they're arguing against, where, you on the other hand, as a former pastor, should be equipped enough to know better most of all.

“Am I imagining Isaiah 45:7 where it has GOD saying that he can make peace or create evil ( Disaster ) ? ”

Sure, previously, you tried to bring this by me and was clarified after many iterations, back at that time. You have again been receiving clarifications during multiple iterations on this topic, but, you keep saving face instead of conceding a point that was put down so long ago. There is nothing to your presenting Isaiah 45:7 in the light in which you have been trying to portray it. Again, with James 1:13 under your belt, you mush know that Isaiah 45:7 isn't telling us that God is behind moral evil. The verse is simply a contrast between two states, like pleasant weather, for obeying His Commands, and inclement weather for sinning, which is different from moral evil, the case that you keep repeating, despite the explanations; thus, you shouldn't still be needing clarification, where you haven't demonstrated your consideration of the explanations that you have been receiving; and, you bring this back to me, in this context, where I previously went over this verse with you in a previous series of multiple iterations with you, where, here, you again aren't demonstrating that you have considered the explanations that you're being provided.

“But those penalties I gave are in the Bible and as such was given by GOD. GOD did not have to give those penalties, he could have given other ones if he deemed it so.”

This was explained as the punishment that God imposed on Adam and Eve, versus the extensional consequences from the Tree of Knowledge itself, where it was those other consequences that are affecting humanity, currently, where this isn't God's intended state of creation; reality was altered, too.

“How could Adam and Eve set into effect a contingency plan for Jesus when the Bible itself says that GOD had Jesus set up before the foundation of the world ? How does that make sense ? You even admit that humanity was bound to a set outcome and yet you say Adam and Eve was not bound by anything ?”

Well, an answer to those questions wouldn't rule out the possibility that Jesus was a contingency plan that was designed to address a possible free choice made Adam and Eve. Had they not made the choice that they made, these would not have been necessary. It makes a lot of sense. It means that plans were made to account for different scenarios, based on an outcome. It makes as much sense as planning for the possibility of running out of food and water while on something like a safari; naturally, you would conclude that someone was dumb, had they not prepared with this basic essential. But, it seems as if you got lost from this understanding, while twisting yourself into pretzels; but, likely, you're only trying to save face instead of conceding another point, which is that free will exists and is important.

This goes back to whether you're trying to make a case that, similar to the employment application process, whether some of the people who choose to become Christian are going to be weeded out from their salvation, if they so happen not be apart of an elite group. The Bible explains that, once you become Christian, efforts will be made to insure your salvation, taking into consideration that no one is perfect and will likely sin as Christians. You have to go to 1 John 1:9 at least daily, as a Christian. And, I know, from my own experience, although I was Christian from my childhood, there was an occasion where I wasn't making God the priority of my life, as I currently do. Thus, for one thing, I neither prayed or attended church for a number of years. This lead to God chastising me, once. I reformed some. But, it was necessary again and, then, probably even again, still, before I reached my current state of mind to my commitment towards God and Christianity. What this shows is that, as the Bible claims, the Holy Spirit, Jesus, God, and Heaven will work for you to ensure your salvation, despite yourself, based on working a specific repair mechanism tailored just for the individual in question. This worked for me, but, for someone else, it's likely going to be somewhat different.

“Well the Bible itself uses words like foreknowledge and predestined. I mean that sounds a lot like GOD is already had his elected chosen beforehand. GOD knows whom he will save and whom he will not.”

This only makes sense, in this context, after so many clarifications, if you can demonstrate that you've considered the things that were explained to you and if you can make a case for comparing someone's salvation to the employment application process, where, the Bible otherwise makes clear or teaches that your salvation is going to be insured for you, once you follow John 3:16 with sincerity and contrition, at the start of the process. Basically, the proper context is that God knows who He will save by knowing the people who will decide to become Christian, not, literally that you will not be saved, despite your best efforts for not being one of the elite (e.g. basically, again, the illustration with the employment application process), which seems to be what you keep trying to imply, despite what the Bible teaches. That's why I asked you to make your case, as it would be a good case to make, if you end up before the Great White Throne of Judgment before God instead of the Judgment Seat of Christ, as a Christian. Basically, one of the pressing questions for people who don't quite understand: can a Christian lose their salvation, despite their contrition, considering that everyone still sins, despite their status as a Christian; but, your status as a Christian will keep you with a pressing guilty consciousness to know when you're sinning and to find a way to atone, where a Christian's chastisement will also come into play, if necessary.

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dshipp17

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Luke 21:1-4; 34-38:

And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury.

2 And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites.

3 And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all:

4 For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.

And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

37 And in the day time he was teaching in the temple; and at night he went out, and abode in the mount that is called the mount of Olives.

38 And all the people came early in the morning to him in the temple, for to hear him.

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just_sayin

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#28232  Edited By just_sayin

@king_saturn said:
@just_sayin said:

We keep touching on some of the classical arguments about evil and God. If I understand you correctly your reasoning is that if God is omnipotent and omniscient and is also good, then He would not allow evil to exist. Is this basically correct? For me, the question revolves around whether or not God could have sufficient reasons to permit evil to exist. Rather than a Free Will theodicy, cause I don't pretend to know why God does what He does, I am offering a Free Will defense as a possible reason. Every day we see evil, and even permit it, if it serves a greater good. Doctors will inflict pain and suffering to avert greater pain and suffering and to bring healing to a sick child. Are these doctors evil for pulling a dislocated shoulder back into place? Or for amputating a leg before it spreads throughout the body? No.

I am putting out a possible reason, though I freely admit, I do not know for certain. To me it seems that moral beings result in greater good than non-moral things. For instance, it seems logical to me that even a small child with the potential to be selfish is capable of doing many good things while a pebble is less capable of achieving moral goodness, even though it is likely to do less morally evil things.

Which child do you think a mother would want to have - one capable of loving her back, even though the child may disobey and say some cruel things to her, or a child incapable of expressing love or emotion? I'd guess the mother would want the child to be able to experience love, even if it meant, that child would also experience pain and suffering, rather than not being able to express or feel emotions.

In a world without free will or choice, the greatest of goods - love cannot truly be known or experienced. We could not truly experience the love of another if it was not given freely. We could not truly know God's love or truly know or understand Him, or anyone else for that matter - without this capacity. Without love - the capacity for good is greatly diminished. So for love to be a real possibility, there must be free will and with free will comes the risk of hate, betrayal, pain and evil. I speculate that a world with true love is a one with much higher capacity for good than a world without it, even if that loving world also has sin and evil in it, because as the Bible puts it "love covers a multitude of sins" (1 Peter 4:8).

I don't think it is accurate to say that God "creates" evil. He allows it. Evil is at its core a rejection of good and there is no greater good than God. Peter attempts to answer the question of why there is still evil in the world and why God hasn't gotten rid of it. He writes: The Lord isn’t slow about keeping his promises, as some people think he is. In fact, God is patient, because he wants everyone to turn from sin and no one to be lost. (2 Peter 3:9 CEV). Essentially, if God got rid of evil, the first thing he would have to get rid of would be us. We like to think of "evil" as the stuff out there - tidal waves, earthquakes, fires, cancer. But the darkest evils are within us. God's patience is driven by wanting us to reject evil and turn to Him.

Well my position is more of GOD is supposedly stating that he himself does all things in the Bible particularly from Isaiah 45:7 including make peace or create evil. Now if GOD himself is supposedly saying that he can create Evil or create Disaster why should I believe against that ? Yes, GOD can allow evil but if GOD himself is stating in the Bible that he not only allows evil but creates it then I would think GOD does create Evil at times. I think it's a situation of GOD does all things, the Good and the Bad. It would not make sense to say GOD is just Good anyways as you would have to judge GOD to be only Good from some standard. I do think GOD is beyond a standard we can hold him to but we can as Humans measure different actions and behaviors and say whether it be Good or Bad. What makes it more convincing to me is when we have it stated in the Bible as such from supposedly The Almighty.

Again, I think you have to read Isaiah 45:7 in a particular translation without doing any research into the word translated "evil" to come to that conclusion.

I think that in order to measure God's actions to say if they are good or bad, you would have to "judge" God by a different standard than you judge yourself. God is not human and not subject to the laws that apply to us.

Oh I came across a book that made me think of you. It discusses something you frequently say "why can't God make a world where there is free will but everyone always chooses to do what is right?" Now I get my knowledge about other potential multiverses from Rick and Morty, but to my surprise there is a whole philosophical discipline about the issue. In the book, "God, Freedom, and Evil" Dr Alvin Plantinga, Professor of Philosophy at the University of Notre Dame, uses a deductive method to answer your question. It gets into a bunch of philosophical issues like "transworld depravity", but the bottom line is that it is possible to deduce that there can not exist a world of free moral agents like us that are not at least as depraved as we are. So on every potential world out there were free will is possible, every other potential you is at least as depraved as you are. Good to know, huh? Me, I didn't need a Doctor of Philosophy to use a proof to show me that all possible me's are depraved - my internet search history proved that to me a long time ago. lol

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just_sayin

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@menos_kegare:

Yes I am an Efe Pygmy Bushman and I follow, Efe who went into the underworld and cut his way out so that when we die we may follow him out of the Serpent of death and go with him to his fathers house.

I take it peyote is an essential part of your religious practice.

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SpareHeadOne

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@just_sayin:

Certainly is

But this is a real Pygmy religion that I am referring to. I read it in a book by Jean Pierre Hallet called "Pygmy Kitabu"

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@dshipp17 said:

@king_saturn:

I haven't overlooked anything; but, rather, it's you who wont listen because you don't want to stop saving face. I already explained that 1 Chronicles 21 clearly explains that Satan incited David to sin via the census. It was then clarified, because of the two separate authors, pointing out how Job had attributed Satan's acts against him to God, due to how people thought during the time that Nathan or Gad put together 2 Samuel, but, Ezra corrected this erroneous phrasing of what happened in 1 Chronicles 24. I then provided you with James 1:13, which says that God isn't the author of sin and confusion; however, these are Satan's specialties. Thus, based on this, any sensible person would then be lead to seek out the error in their judgment within a thought process that would bring one to a conclusion that God would have actually incited David to sin, where, such isn't a correct possibility to be exploring, because of Scriptures such as James 1:13. Thus, you haven't demonstrated that you have factored in these explanations simply by asking the same questions, as if I had never brought these things up to you somehow. With that in mind, it's starting to look like this is a matter of maturity that you need to develop in order to learn, as saving face is causing you not to move forward with this discussion, as anyone else would otherwise have done under these circumstances.

You, keep overlooking stuff and it is frustrating as hell. The passage in 2 Samuel 24 says that GOD incited David to take the Census, not Satan. Yes, it says that GOD was angry with Israel but it also says that GOD incited David to take a Census. That is what the passage says. In 1 Chronicles 21:7 it clearly says that GOD punished Israel because of David's command of the Census. You have continued to overlook this time and time again and this is the evidence that GOD punished Israel over David's sin not because they was sinning. It's directly in the story itself. The maturity issue is on your end because you can not admit that the Bible says what it does here.

As previously explained, 1 Chronicles 21 explained, or started off with the phrase “and the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel”, where this phrase is repeatedly used many times throughout the Old Testament, after the Jews had done that which was evil in the eyes of God; therefore, they were actually being punished for their own sins. I explained that David erroneously concluded that Israel was innocent and that the cause of everything was his decision to take the census, even comparing his situation to the situations of Job and Joshua. However, you're repeating yourself, as if this clarification was never made, which would be an indicator as to whether you'd properly processed the explanations that you've been receiving. While David said such, God did not validate his conclusion with an agreement, as He did in the case of Joshua, another indicator that what you're saying, that God was punishing Israel for David's transgression, is simply incorrect, where these were initially brought to bear to show that you were erroneous with this suggestion. Again, this is an issue of maturity with you, where you can just simply leave the efforts at saving face behind and concede the points that were never there or correct in the first place.

You are a Liar. 1 Chronicles 21 does not start off with the Anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel. Only 2 Samuel 24 starts off with that and that passage is the one that says GOD incited David to take an unlawful census. 1 Chronicles 21 starts off with Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a Census. Nothing about GOD being angry with Israel. It says plain as day in 1 Chronicles 21:7 that GOD punished Israel because of David's command. I am getting tired of your Lies man.

To relieve yourself of the sin of imagination, this is precisely what you should be doing, because of Scriptures like James 1:13, where inciting sin is the character of Satan, and not God. There is this saying, Satan tempts and God permits. God certainly didn't direct Satan specifically to incite David to sin; God just permitted Satan to proceed to punish Israel, where Satan decided to tempt Israel, in course to punishing Israel in whatever way Satan decided for himself, where God was also in the midst of punishing Israel for ongoing and continuous sin. You reached this concluding thought by simply repeating yourself, as if nothing had been clarified for you, even though it's been done in multiple iterations for you at this time.

There is no Imagination here. If GOD used Satan to incite David to take an Unlawful Census then GOD used Satan to do his dirty work. It depends on the interpretation. 2 Samuel 24 says that GOD himself incited David to take a Census and 1 Chronicles 21 says it was Satan. You pick however.

I laid out a context that was otherwise totally and completely rooted in fact. I did this, partly due to what James 1:13 instructs us. If you're reaching a conclusion that seems to be taking Satan's specialty and attributes from him and instead attributing those to God, where Satan's involvement is as plan as day for any reader, you obviously need to reevaluate your conclusion for error, desperately and immediately, where you've been twice warned that you were guilty of the sin of imagination in your pursuit to continue saving face, when you can simply abandon that pursuit for your own good and salvation. The context is that Israel was sinning and Satan inciting David to take the census. You're just getting lost in your own phrasing, because you're repeating yourself in an effort to continue to save face, despite the clarity of the context at this stages, after so many iterations now.

No the context is not that. The passage specifically says why GOD smote Israel within the passage itself. It says that GOD punished Israel because of David's sin not their own. 1 Chronicles 21:7, read it please.

Here, you're moving back and forth from 2 Samuel 24 and 1 Chronicles 21, where both are necessary to fully understand the context. 1 Chronicles 21 is a type of summary for 2 Samuel 24, which says that Israel was in continuous sin (and in what ways they were sinning) and David erroneously concluding that it was his actions that should lead to any actions from God, where God didn't validate David's erroneous conclusion that Israel was free of any sin. One way to correctly look at it is that God punished Israel in David's eyes while He punished Israel for its own ongoing sins.

I move back and forth because you are moving back and forth. Again, that is not what the passage says. You are making this up. The passage tells you why GOD punished Israel, it was because of David's sin taking the Census. GOD killed over 70,000 People because of something David did wrong.

Well, sure, as the context of Romans 8 is what happens to people who follow John 3:16 towards a decision to become Christians, using their free will. The statement also repeated your case to make, if you're suggesting that people are weeded out of their salvation, similar to the employment application process. The matter is that you can't have it both ways to save face: basically, are you coming from a Calvinistic perspective, while saying you're not on their side, but, still repeating this verse, even though the context of Romans 8 is about a person's free choice to decide whether to become Christian or not, and the resulting consequences of both decisions? In this respect, God's foreknowledge of things could not be directing a certain outcome, if that is what you're trying to imply.

If GOD knows something beforehand, how can anything but what he knows come to be ?

Here, again, you're repeating yourself even after you got an explanation. Normal human logic is to move ahead with the conversation, based on that explanation, as it addressed this point that isn't there. God punished both Achan and his family based on their own individual circumstances. Based on your other argument regarding God's foreknowledge, you should know that Achan's family wasn't being judged only because of Achan's actions. I even provided the similar situation of Saul, making my case that contrition moves God, where God was able to tell whether Achan and each member of his family were actually contrite for their actions, when they came forward as the guilty party being sought out by Joshua, where locating the guilty party was actually guided and directed by God. I actually explained that it is not helpful to anything to limit God to the limitations of a person, simply to save face, even after otherwise trying to argue for God's foreknowledge to save face in another case, right in the same series of iteration, in recycling stuff from the atheists who don't even understand, or care to understand, the scholarly support and evidence for what they're arguing against, where, you on the other hand, as a former pastor, should be equipped enough to know better most of all.

It's because your proposed explanations are Crap. No where in the passage does it say or imply that Achan's sons or daughters was guilty of anything. It does however say in the passage that all that Achan has should be burnt for his sin in Joshua 7. I feel like you are not reading these stories at all.

Sure, previously, you tried to bring this by me and was clarified after many iterations, back at that time. You have again been receiving clarifications during multiple iterations on this topic, but, you keep saving face instead of conceding a point that was put down so long ago. There is nothing to your presenting Isaiah 45:7 in the light in which you have been trying to portray it. Again, with James 1:13 under your belt, you mush know that Isaiah 45:7 isn't telling us that God is behind moral evil. The verse is simply a contrast between two states, like pleasant weather, for obeying His Commands, and inclement weather for sinning, which is different from moral evil, the case that you keep repeating, despite the explanations; thus, you shouldn't still be needing clarification, where you haven't demonstrated your consideration of the explanations that you have been receiving; and, you bring this back to me, in this context, where I previously went over this verse with you in a previous series of multiple iterations with you, where, here, you again aren't demonstrating that you have considered the explanations that you're being provided.

So GOD saying he can create evil or disaster is the same as inclement weather ? Even though if GOD causes Disaster that he can kill people with ? That's why I have given all these examples to so that GOD does at times do evil. Your explanations suck.

This was explained as the punishment that God imposed on Adam and Eve, versus the extensional consequences from the Tree of Knowledge itself, where it was those other consequences that are affecting humanity, currently, where this isn't God's intended state of creation; reality was altered, too.

This changes nothing. It was GOD who set all those curses upon Adam, Eve, the Ground after they sin. It was GOD who kicked Adam and Eve out of the Garden never to return.


This honestly is my last response to you. I can not keep going back and forth with someone who will see the scriptures and twist them to their own effect.

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Again, I think you have to read Isaiah 45:7 in a particular translation without doing any research into the word translated "evil" to come to that conclusion.

I think that in order to measure God's actions to say if they are good or bad, you would have to "judge" God by a different standard than you judge yourself. God is not human and not subject to the laws that apply to us.

Isaiah 45:7 gives clear contrasts. It even has GOD saying he does all these things. Well all what things ? Light - Darkness. Make Peace - Create Evil ( or Disaster ). These contrasts are significant especially when considering these are supposedly declarations from GOD himself in the passage.

But as I have said before, what if GOD himself is saying he does Good and Bad things ? Is it a judgment issue on our end or a declaration of The Almighty himself ? Isaiah 45 is supposed to be declarations from GOD himself.

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Menos_Kegare

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What are peoples thoughts on demonology?

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SpareHeadOne

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@menos_kegare:

I find Angel and demonology to be a little too nichey for me. I try to stick to the big picture.

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@spareheadone: eh? But the angels, demons, and the other various spiritual entities are the most interesting aspects O:

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@menos_kegare:

Realising that we are one entity with demons and angels is more interesting to me

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Me personally. I'm an Evangelical Christian, however, I'm ethnically Jewish. I was adopted as a child from Eastern Europe, both of biological parents are Jewish, however, I was raised in Christian household.

Even still, I have never believed I was special because of my heritage. I believe that everyone who becomes a Christian becomes an adopted child of Jacob and is the rightful heir to all the promises.

This is why I get upset when other Christians dismiss Palestinian Christians. They, out of anyone, have more right to the land then the Israeli's. This gets me called anti-semetic, even though I have the most ground to talk about this. I just pull out scripture and show how my position is justified and this frustrates people.

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dshipp17

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#28243  Edited By dshipp17

@king_saturn:

“You, keep overlooking stuff and it is frustrating as hell. The passage in 2 Samuel 24 says that GOD incited David to take the Census, not Satan.”

That's ok, because 1 Chronicles 21:1 says that Satan incited David to number Israel. I'm not overlooking it, as I addressed it for you several times already. Of the two options, I picked 1 Chronicles 21:1, because I hold fast to James 1:13, where tempting people to sin is the character of Satan, not God. Thus, my prior explanations may be wrong, as to what really happened, but, I think my explanations are at or near the ballpark of being correct. Picking God over Satan as the instigator of taking the census has got to be a continent away from being the correct answer; thus, while I may be off a little in my explanation, I'm not as far off from what the true explanation could be as you, where you'd prefer that God instead of Satan to have instigated David to sin; but, keep in mind, also, the taking of a census, itself, is not a sin, it was just involved in some unspecified or otherwise fully described sin. Thus, I prefer to place myself in the better position to be able to ask God about the true explanation, except, because of Scriptures like James 1:13, I, myself, am not actually really moved to need these things that non-believers and atheists cherry pick to lead others astray; I'm only interested in knowing to the extent that I can think about it in order to make arguments designed to prevent it from leading others astray; I prefer to be a child of God, as a Christian, so, I'm more interested in asking God about things like what happened in the pre-Flood work, as I go through the Judgment Seat of Christ and enter into Heaven for eternity; I more prefer to learn about things like, what Adam and Eve did before their faithful mistake, how people progressed, soon after the fall, were there another set of humans from the earlier creation account, and what caused God to judge the people in the pre-Flood world, but, learning this might be a brief moment, compared to the rest of eternity in Heaven.

“In 1 Chronicles 21:7 it clearly says that GOD punished Israel because of David's command of the Census. You have continued to overlook this time and time again and this is the evidence that GOD punished Israel over David's sin not because they was sinning.”

The reason for this, is because, if you want to use 1 Chronicles 21:7 to make a point, you need to be using 1 Chronicles 21:1, not substituting that with 2 Samuel 24:1, where it proves to be the more convenient explanation for your position. This makes a big difference and breaks down your position that Israel wasn't in sin or innocent and being punished for David's actions. 2 Samuel 24:1 says that the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and, this is usually accompanied with, and they did that which was evil in the eyes of God. As I've already pointed out, earlier passages leading up to 1 Chronicles 21:1 show that Israel was in contentious and ongoing sin. Thus, 1 Chronicles 21:7 is surrounded by verses that demonstrate that Israel was in ongoing sin and that it was Satan who incited David to number Israel. As I explained earlier, given that things are missing and abbreviated, all we can know under these conditions is that God was displeased with something, where the full context is unknown, taking a census by itself is not a sin, and that Satan instigated things, where, he tempts people to sin, which, in tern, upsets God. Thus, it's easy to take this verse out of context, as 2 Samuel and the rest of the description of things are necessary to understand the full context; it's important to withhold a conclusion, since, it is God involved, which requires us to respect Scriptures like James 1:13, which means, despite how apparent things can be made out, there must be a mistake somewhere.

“You are a Liar. 1 Chronicles 21 does not start off with the Anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel.”

No, I just made a mistake, as both 2 Samuel 24 and 1 Chronicles 21 are being used in order to have this discussion.

“There is no Imagination here. If GOD used Satan to incite David to take an Unlawful Census then GOD used Satan to do his dirty work.”

No, for the reasons already explained. As with the case of Job, or, similar to it, in this case, likely, God released some type of protection surrounding Israel which then allowed Satan to attack them in his own way. Again, we don't have the full and complete context as to what really happened, except that a census taking was involved, which isn't a sin. My justification, again, is James 1:13, where you prefer to accuse God of tempting people to sin, despite others helping you to understand, otherwise, while attempting to stop you from drawing that conclusion, which is what the Bible calls the sin of imagination, since James 1:13 is true. My job, as a Christian, is to prevent others from being deceived and from being dragged down the drain with you.

“If GOD knows something beforehand, how can anything but what he knows come to be ?”

For the explanations already provided. The verse comes from Romans 8. So, God knows who will and who wont choose to follow John 3:16 and decide to become Christian; God's will however, is that none should perish and that we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, in order to be saved. It is your case to make as to how God knowing beforehand, who will make this choice, will somehow also shape some type of reality. My position is that salvation is 180 degrees different from the employment application process, which involves weeding people out, once they've meet the qualifications; salvation is about keeping people in, once they've decided to meet the qualification requirements; thus, I left you to explain: what if a person who isn't labeled among the elite decides to follow John 3:16 to become Christian, with the required contrition and sincerity? Are you trying to say that God would will them out of or away from their salvation, simply because they happened not to be among the elite? That would be what the employment application process would do, however. But, wouldn't said individuals have a defense, when they're before God, during the Great White Throne of Judgment?

“No where in the passage does it say or imply that Achan's sons or daughters was guilty of anything. It does however say in the passage that all that Achan has should be burnt for his sin in Joshua 7. I feel like you are not reading these stories at all.”

Joshua 7:10-14: And the Lord said unto Joshua, Get thee up; wherefore liest thou thus upon thy face? 11 Israel hath sinned, and they have also transgressed my covenant which I commanded them: for they have even taken of the accursed thing, and have also stolen, and dissembled also, and they have put it even among their own stuff. 12 Therefore the children of Israel could not stand before their enemies, but turned their backs before their enemies, because they were accursed: neither will I be with you any more, except ye destroy the accursed from among you. 13 Up, sanctify the people, and say, Sanctify yourselves against to morrow: for thus saith the Lord God of Israel, There is an accursed thing in the midst of thee, O Israel: thou canst not stand before thine enemies, until ye take away the accursed thing from among you. 14 In the morning therefore ye shall be brought according to your tribes: and it shall be, that the tribe which the Lord taketh shall come according to the families thereof; and the family which the Lord shall take shall come by households; and the household which the Lord shall take shall come man by man.

From this passage, it says, that Israel, as a whole, sinned. You can make certain logical assumptions, even if the passage didn't say something specifically, particularly where you're trying to use Romans 8:29 as an argument.

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@dshipp17 said:

@king_saturn:

I said I was going to leave this alone in my previous post but there is something here that must be cleared up.

That's ok, because 1 Chronicles 21:1 says that Satan incited David top number Israel. I'm not overlooking it, as I addressed it for you several times already. Of the two options, I picked 1 Chronicles 21:1, because I hold fast to James 1:13, where tempting people to sin is the character of Satan, not God. Thus, my prior explanations may be wrong, as to what really happened, but, I think my explanations are at or near the ballpark of being correct. Picking God over Satan as the instigator of taking the census has got to be a Continent away from being the correct answer; thus, while I may be off a little in my explanation, I'm not as far off from what the true explanation could be as you, where you'd prefer that God instead of Satan to have instigated David to sin; but, keep in mind, also, the taking of a census, itself, is not a sin, it was just involved in some unspecified or fully described sin. Thus, I prefer to place myself in the better position to be able to ask God about the true explanation, except, because of Scriptures like James 1:13, I, myself, am not actually really moved to need these things that non-believers and atheists cherry pick to lead others astray; I'm only interested in knowing to the extent of preventing it from leading others astray; I prefer to be a child of God, as a Christian, so, I'm more interested in asking God about things like what happened in the pre-Flood work, as I go through the Judgment Seat of Christ and enter into Heaven for eternity; I more prefer to learn about things like, what Adam and Eve did before their faithful mistake, how people progressed, soon after the fall, where there another set of humans from the earlier creation account, and what caused God to judge the people in the pre-Flood world, but, learning this might be a brief moment, compared to the rest of eternity in Heaven.

That is Correct, 1 Chronicles 21:1 does in fact say that Satan rose up against Israel to incite a Census. It also has other points here like it does not say that GOD was angry with Israel and also it says that it was David's command of taking the Unlawful Census that displeased the LORD so he punished Israel. The problem is still, that GOD punished Israel for the Sin that David had done and in turn killed 70,000 Israelites. There was no other sin mentioned in 1 Chronicles 21 that gave heed to GOD causing to punish Israel. It was on the strength of David's unlawful census.


The reason for this, is because, if you want to use 1 Chronicles 21:7 to make a point, you need to be using 1 Chronicles 21:1, not substituted that with 2 Samuel 24:1, where it provides to the more convenient explanation for your position. This makes a big difference and breaks down your position that Israel wasn't in sin or innocent and being punished for David's actions. 2 Samuel 24:1 says that the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and, this is usually accompanied with, and they did that which was evil in the eyes of God. As I've already pointed out, earlier passages leading up to 1 Chronicles 21:1 show that Israel was in contentious and ongoing sin. Thus, 1 Chronicles 21:7 is surrounded by verses that demonstrate that Israel was in ongoing sin and that it was Satan who incited David to number Israel. As I explained earlier, given that things are missing and abbreviated, all we can know under these conditions is that God was displeased with something, where the full context is unknown, taking a census by itself is not a sin, and that Satan instigated things, where, he tempts people to sin, which, in tern, upsets God. Thus, it's easy to take this verse out of context, as 2 Samuel and the rest of the description of things are necessary to understand the full context; it's important to withhold a conclusion, since, it is God involved, which requires us to respect Scriptures like James 1:13, which means, despite how apparent things can be made out, there must be a mistake somewhere.

I have no problem using 1 Chronicles 21, we had been using both because when the issue was originally brought up it was using 2 Samuel 24. Even if Israel had been sinning beforehand the passage makes it clear that it was David's sin that caused this Disaster that lead to thousands being killed. That's why David was crying out to GOD the way he was, it was because he knew he had messed up Big Time.

No, I just made a mistake, as both 2 Samuel 24 and 1 Chronicles 21 are being used in order to have this discussion.

Eh, okay I guess.

No, for the reasons already explained. As with the case of Job, or, similar to it, in this case, likely, God released some type of protection surrounding Israel which then allowed Satan to attack them in his own way. Again, we don't have to full and complete context as to what really happened, except that a census taking was involved, which isn't a sin. My justification, again, is James 1:13, where you prefer to accuse God of tempting people to sin, despite others helping you to understand, while attempting to stop you from drawing that conclusion, which is what the Bible calls the sin of imagination, since James 1:13 is true. My job, as a Christian, is to prevent others from being deceived and being dragged down the drain with you.

Okay, lets get some clarity here. The reason I said that GOD was encouraging David to sin was because the 2 Samuel 24 passage says that. That passage was used by you about how GOD was angry with Israel so I showed the whole scripture there and showed the bizarre nature of it. I preferred 1 Chronicles 21 account but you kept going back to how GOD was angry with Israel and that's only in the 2 Samuel 24 passage that says also that GOD incited David to sin.


Joshua 7:10-14: And the Lord said unto Joshua, Get thee up; wherefore liest thou thus upon thy face? 11 Israel hath sinned, and they have also transgressed my covenant which I commanded them: for they have even taken of the accursed thing, and have also stolen, and dissembled also, and they have put it even among their own stuff. 12 Therefore the children of Israel could not stand before their enemies, but turned their backs before their enemies, because they were accursed: neither will I be with you any more, except ye destroy the accursed from among you. 13 Up, sanctify the people, and say, Sanctify yourselves against to morrow: for thus saith the Lord God of Israel, There is an accursed thing in the midst of thee, O Israel: thou canst not stand before thine enemies, until ye take away the accursed thing from among you. 14 In the morning therefore ye shall be brought according to your tribes: and it shall be, that the tribe which the Lord taketh shall come according to the families thereof; and the family which the Lord shall take shall come by households; and the household which the Lord shall take shall come man by man.

From this passage, is says, that Israel, as a whole, sinned. You can make certain logical assumptions, even if the passage didn't say something specifically, particularly where you're trying to use Romans 8:29 as an argument.

Ha Ha... You Sneaky Devil You !

You seemed to miss the Scripture right after Joshua 7:14

Joshua 7:15 "And it shall come be, that he that is taken the accursed thing shall be burnt with fire, he and all that he hath, because he hath transgressed against the covenant of the LORD, and because he hath wrought folly in Israel".

The passage is clear, that whoever out of Israel who took the accursed thing would be burnt and all that he has with him. Sorry, but no Cigar !

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Its a cool source for fiction, and are fun texts to deconstruct

But I dont take part in it outside of literary studies

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@king_saturn:

Im looking into Universal Restoration and Salvation as you know. Heres another interesting passage...

Luke 12

47That servant who knows his master’s will but does not get ready or follow his instructions will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who unknowingly does things worthy of punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and from him who has been entrusted with much, even more will be demanded.

On the assumption that ALL people will go into hellfire for the final restorative purging. This passage indicates that people who are without knowledge of the bible will not be held accountable for that and conversely people with bible knowledge will be held more accountable.

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SuperiorSGBeast

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Its fine

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@king_saturn:

Im looking into Universal Restoration and Salvation as you know. Heres another interesting passage...

Luke 12

47That servant who knows his master’s will but does not get ready or follow his instructions will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who unknowingly does things worthy of punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and from him who has been entrusted with much, even more will be demanded.

On the assumption that ALL people will go into hellfire for the final restorative purging. This passage indicates that people who are without knowledge of the bible will not be held accountable for that and conversely people with bible knowledge will be held more accountable.

I always found this passage in Luke to be interesting. For one, who is it that is doing the beating ? Is it Jesus himself or does he have the Angels punishing Humanity ? It's probably metaphors for something else I guess.

On a side note, I often wonder and still do about something in the Islamic Faith. Like, what happens if you don't pray 5 times a day ? What if you miss a prayer or two ? Can you make it up the next day ? Is there a weekly count by Allah ? What if you prayed 35 times in one day and then said Screw It, I am Good for the Week ?

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And what are the thoughts on 'The Gospel of Nicodemus'?

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@king_saturn:

Ps 23

Jehovah is my shepherd ...

Though I walk through the valley of Gehenna I will fear no evil.....

His ROD and his STAFF comfort me....

He restores my soul.