Religion… What do you think?

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dshipp17

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@dshipp17: Piss off, peg boy.

I already sent an intercessory prayer her way about 4 hours ago, right after my last post. It's for her more than anything else.

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SpareHeadOne

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My brother was run over by a car when I was 7 he died on the scene.

My Aunty blew herself away with a shot gun.

I've lost all my grandparents

My property burnt down in a bushfire and I lost all my family photos

And I had to nurse my first wife through cancer for four years until finally she died.

I cried every day as I drove to work and toward the end I would also scream and groan with emotional agony.

My brother went to jail because he was driving drunk and high and crashed killing his passenger. I finally got a stomach ulcer from that.

I got a new woman and her and her kids moved in. Her kids would piss on my tools and my weights. They would throw their shitty underwear on the roof so that we had their shit in our rainwater. They stole money and clothes and tools and toys from me and my children. After a year I started going Psycho, drinking and yelling and screaming and throwing stuff around. The cops were called a number of times.

I don't drink anymore. The kids are under control. I have a great relationship with my wife. I feel happy this year for the first time in ten years.

God is making me strong.

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just_sayin

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1. How can GOD's foreknowledge not cause the future to be ? Can anyone do or choose anything other than what GOD's knows they will do ? GOD is the one outside of Space and Time and is Omniscient. Therefore his foreknowledge makes it impossible to choose anything other than what he knows you will choose. The reason why it seems like we have Free Will is because we as Humans live in the dimensions of Space and Time, we don't know everything and can experience Love freely. GOD can not it appears.

I think science would confirm that God's foreknowledge is not causative. Ever heard of the wave-particle duality experiments on predicting the location of where a particle will end up? An atom is fired, and has an equal probability of ending up on either side of a divided barrier. If unobserved the results are much more evenly distributed with it being impossible to determine which side the particle will end up on. It acts more like a wave. Yet if there is an observer watching at the moment when the atom must choose which side of the split it will go down, the results are predictable. Observers at real time seem to change the way the particle "responds" it goes from a wave with lots of varied options to behaving more like a true particle with an exact super location.

How does an experiment where if observers are present proof that God's foreknowledge is not causative? Because if God's observation of the future affected the super position of the atom then we would not be getting the results we do when doing the experiment "unobserved". God has already observed it. But He has done so outside of space-time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O81Cilon10M

2. I think you are missing the point here. Yes, GOD is distinct from his Creation the thing is GOD's foreknowledge makes it impossible to choose anything other than what he knows. Could Adam really chose to not Sin against GOD if GOD had preordained Jesus to die on the Cross even before their was a Earth for Adam to exist on ? How could Adam choose anything other than what GOD knew he would hence the need for Jesus and his sacrifice.

See above ^.

3. I don't know if GOD has any Moral Obligations to us even if we was Moral Free Agents as you say considering that the Bible says all have Sinned and come short of the Glory of GOD. So essentially we all deserve whatever GOD gives us whether it be good or bad if that statement is true. The thing is GOD's nature is supposedly, Love and Mercy so I would hope in any situation that GOD's nature holds true. Well technically we are Pawns on a Chess Board whether there is Free Will or No Free Will. Remember Isaiah 45:7 when GOD says he can Make Peace or Create Evil ? GOD can do whatever he wants regardless of Free Will existing or not.

I agree that God can do whatever he wants regardless of Free Will existing or not. However, God can not be "immoral" to something that is a moral agent. If I stick a toilet plunger in a toilet and give it a swirly I haven't sinned against it. If we do not have free will then God's love can not be the kind one would have with a moral agent who could love or reject Him back, it would be the same kind of love someone has for their iphone.

4. If GOD's nature is towards Love and Mercy, how can it be Moral for him to create beings that would do bad things so he could destroy them ? Yes, a creator can do with his creation as he wishes. That's true if Free Will exists or not. I don't understand where you are getting with this. Not really, if GOD's nature is Love and Mercy then I would expect his actions to be as such regardless if Free Will exists or not. Supposedly, GOD created Man in his own Image. Did GOD create Rocks in his own Image too ? Humans are more than just Rocks even if Free Will is an Illusion. I mean I don't see GOD saying anything about sending Jesus to die for Rocks in the Bible.

Maybe God wants to love something that is capable of loving him back. It isn't accurate to say God "needs" anything, but it seems like the expression of genuine love is something that is important to Him.

You can't really argue that God has treated someone immorally if he programmed to behave a certain way. They behaved the way he programmed them and were "punished" the way he programmed. There is no expectation of some different response because a different response is not possible.

5. It's not a Contradiction. GOD is Omnipotent and can do anything he wants that is within his Attributes. GOD can not Sin and GOD can not create a Rock too heavy for him to lift. So when I say GOD can do anything and his Omniscience makes it impossible for him to not know something. How is that a Contradiction ? If GOD knows all things before we even exist how can we truly have Free Will ? What other options can we choose other than what GOD knows already beforehand ?

I am not saying that God does not know the future. On the contrary, theologians would say He does. What I am saying is that his observation doesn't determine the position of where the atom (or Adam) ends up - to follow with the science experiment analogy from earlier.

6. Again, whatever GOD does with you is at his discretion is true regardless if Free Will exists. Have not all sinned and come short of the glory of GOD ? Did not GOD say he can both make peace or create evil ? That's true regardless if Free Will exists or not.

Wow, it seems you are arguing against the idea that God is a moral monster.

7. If GOD creates some People to whom he will Love and Save and then he creates some People whom he will Destroy, how is that Fair ? How is that Just ? GOD does not have to enter into a Moral Agreement with us because technically according to the Bible our Morality don't mean nothing to him because we are all Sinners and GOD can do with us as he pleases.

Many theologians would say that for God to atone us of our sins through a substitutionary sacrifice we would have to agree to the offer. It seems like an offer you shouldn't refuse, but the idea is it must be entered into voluntarily. In other words, God will not drag anyone into heaven unwillingly.

8. Peter had no choice, How could Peter choose against what GOD already told him he would do ? How can Jesus be wrong if he be God in the Flesh ? Jesus foreknowledge of the situation shuts down Peter's choice because not only did Jesus know that Peter would deny him Three times, Jesus clearly knew why he would. Hence, why Jesus said he prayed for him beforehand. Peter could not choose anything other than what GOD knew he would choose. I don't think so, I think Jesus came and die because he had to because the Father declared it beforehand and sent him.

See wave particle discussion above ^.

No one can take my life from me. I sacrifice it voluntarily. For I have the authority to lay it down when I want to and also to take it up again. For this is what my Father has commanded. - Jesus (John 10:18 NLT)

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Cable_Extreme

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#28054  Edited By Cable_Extreme

@spareheadone: I’m sorry for your hardships, but do you think a loving god would have you go through all of that?

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King Saturn

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@king_saturn said:

1. How can GOD's foreknowledge not cause the future to be ? Can anyone do or choose anything other than what GOD's knows they will do ? GOD is the one outside of Space and Time and is Omniscient. Therefore his foreknowledge makes it impossible to choose anything other than what he knows you will choose. The reason why it seems like we have Free Will is because we as Humans live in the dimensions of Space and Time, we don't know everything and can experience Love freely. GOD can not it appears.

I think science would confirm that God's foreknowledge is not causative. Ever heard of the wave-particle duality experiments on predicting the location of where a particle will end up? An atom is fired, and has an equal probability of ending up on either side of a divided barrier. If unobserved the results are much more evenly distributed with it being impossible to determine which side the particle will end up on. It acts more like a wave. Yet if there is an observer watching at the moment when the atom must choose which side of the split it will go down, the results are predictable. Observers at real time seem to change the way the particle "responds" it goes from a wave with lots of varied options to behaving more like a true particle with an exact super location.

How does an experiment where if observers are present proof that God's foreknowledge is not causative? Because if God's observation of the future affected the super position of the atom then we would not be getting the results we do when doing the experiment "unobserved". God has already observed it. But He has done so outside of space-time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O81Cilon10M

2. I think you are missing the point here. Yes, GOD is distinct from his Creation the thing is GOD's foreknowledge makes it impossible to choose anything other than what he knows. Could Adam really chose to not Sin against GOD if GOD had preordained Jesus to die on the Cross even before their was a Earth for Adam to exist on ? How could Adam choose anything other than what GOD knew he would hence the need for Jesus and his sacrifice.

See above ^.

3. I don't know if GOD has any Moral Obligations to us even if we was Moral Free Agents as you say considering that the Bible says all have Sinned and come short of the Glory of GOD. So essentially we all deserve whatever GOD gives us whether it be good or bad if that statement is true. The thing is GOD's nature is supposedly, Love and Mercy so I would hope in any situation that GOD's nature holds true. Well technically we are Pawns on a Chess Board whether there is Free Will or No Free Will. Remember Isaiah 45:7 when GOD says he can Make Peace or Create Evil ? GOD can do whatever he wants regardless of Free Will existing or not.

I agree that God can do whatever he wants regardless of Free Will existing or not. However, God can not be "immoral" to something that is a moral agent. If I stick a toilet plunger in a toilet and give it a swirly I haven't sinned against it. If we do not have free will then God's love can not be the kind one would have with a moral agent who could love or reject Him back, it would be the same kind of love someone has for their iphone.

4. If GOD's nature is towards Love and Mercy, how can it be Moral for him to create beings that would do bad things so he could destroy them ? Yes, a creator can do with his creation as he wishes. That's true if Free Will exists or not. I don't understand where you are getting with this. Not really, if GOD's nature is Love and Mercy then I would expect his actions to be as such regardless if Free Will exists or not. Supposedly, GOD created Man in his own Image. Did GOD create Rocks in his own Image too ? Humans are more than just Rocks even if Free Will is an Illusion. I mean I don't see GOD saying anything about sending Jesus to die for Rocks in the Bible.

Maybe God wants to love something that is capable of loving him back. It isn't accurate to say God "needs" anything, but it seems like the expression of genuine love is something that is important to Him.

You can't really argue that God has treated someone immorally if he programmed to behave a certain way. They behaved the way he programmed them and were "punished" the way he programmed. There is no expectation of some different response because a different response is not possible.

5. It's not a Contradiction. GOD is Omnipotent and can do anything he wants that is within his Attributes. GOD can not Sin and GOD can not create a Rock too heavy for him to lift. So when I say GOD can do anything and his Omniscience makes it impossible for him to not know something. How is that a Contradiction ? If GOD knows all things before we even exist how can we truly have Free Will ? What other options can we choose other than what GOD knows already beforehand ?

I am not saying that God does not know the future. On the contrary, theologians would say He does. What I am saying is that his observation doesn't determine the position of where the atom (or Adam) ends up - to follow with the science experiment analogy from earlier.

6. Again, whatever GOD does with you is at his discretion is true regardless if Free Will exists. Have not all sinned and come short of the glory of GOD ? Did not GOD say he can both make peace or create evil ? That's true regardless if Free Will exists or not.

Wow, it seems you are arguing against the idea that God is a moral monster.

7. If GOD creates some People to whom he will Love and Save and then he creates some People whom he will Destroy, how is that Fair ? How is that Just ? GOD does not have to enter into a Moral Agreement with us because technically according to the Bible our Morality don't mean nothing to him because we are all Sinners and GOD can do with us as he pleases.

Many theologians would say that for God to atone us of our sins through a substitutionary sacrifice we would have to agree to the offer. It seems like an offer you shouldn't refuse, but the idea is it must be entered into voluntarily. In other words, God will not drag anyone into heaven unwillingly.

8. Peter had no choice, How could Peter choose against what GOD already told him he would do ? How can Jesus be wrong if he be God in the Flesh ? Jesus foreknowledge of the situation shuts down Peter's choice because not only did Jesus know that Peter would deny him Three times, Jesus clearly knew why he would. Hence, why Jesus said he prayed for him beforehand. Peter could not choose anything other than what GOD knew he would choose. I don't think so, I think Jesus came and die because he had to because the Father declared it beforehand and sent him.

See wave particle discussion above ^.

No one can take my life from me. I sacrifice it voluntarily. For I have the authority to lay it down when I want to and also to take it up again. For this is what my Father has commanded. - Jesus (John 10:18 NLT)

1. I am not sure how the Wave Particle Experiment proves that GOD's foreknowledge does not lead to Causation. I watched that Video and did not see your point. If GOD's foreknowledge is to know all things including the Events that lead up to the Outcome then what things or options are left to be varied outside of what GOD already knows ? I mean we can say we are choosing things from the Human Experience but I don't see how GOD's knowledge could not see the events that lead up to the very Outcome that will occur. In turn what GOD sees will happen.

2. I watched and did not see your point. Explain with a better example perhaps ?

3. I did not know Humans was Plungers. I mean like I said, GOD sees Humans as more than just objects clearly from Bible Readings. That is Correct, and I love my Samsung Galaxy and would never purposely try to throw it in a Toilet or break it.

Sure we could, GOD's nature is such that he is supposedly Loving and Merciful, so for GOD to create Beings that are supposedly made in his own image just to have them Suffer and Die would be against his own Nature. At least to some degree.

4. Okay, but if GOD knows the Future and the events that lead to exactly what will become in the Future how does that not put Adam at a disadvantage ? What could Adam do that GOD would not already know in this situation ? Wave - Particle experiment did not work for my Conflict on this issue.

5. I don't think I said GOD was a Moral Monster. I have said that GOD does create Evil, GOD has done bizarre and cruel things. I also know GOD does Good things as well.

6. GOD makes the Rules does he not ? GOD could make it so that there is no need for a Sacrifice and all Sin is redeemed by 25 minutes of being Pinched on the Arms and Nipples. The fact that GOD desired to have a Sacrifice to redeem Sin is somewhat Bizarre if he did not have to. GOD does not have to Drag anyone to Heaven, it's the alternative that is the issue. Torment and Fire for those who don't believe ? That's pretty harsh.

7. I saw Wave Particle Discussion, read stuff about it on the Internet. Not quite following how it defeats GOD's foreknowledge not being a factor of Cause.

If The Father declared Jesus would be slain before the Foundation of the World, could Jesus deny the Father and say he was not going to do it ? I mean Jesus seemed pretty big on following what The Father commanded of him. I do not think Jesus had a real choice here. John 10:18 seems to be dealing with People not being able to take Jesus life and how he would be following the command of The Father.

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SpareHeadOne

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@cable_extreme:

There is no other way for us to become good and strong and godly in character.

We are perfected through suffering. Pick a comic book hero. Chances are that the hero in question is defined by his/her suffering.

Tough love makes strong independent people. Soft love makes a bunch of spoiled weaklings.

Take your medicine and don't put blame on anyone. Don't become bitter. Let The Spirit help you through.

I've called god a Phukking Kunt lots of times while in the thick of it but I've always understood that I am in the destiny he has designed for me and that he is making me as strong and full of love as I can be.

I also understand that life is not about me. It's about God and we are all God.

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@spareheadone: Your life experience I a lot harder than the general population. Someone like the prince of England. Born into riches and fame. Has many things to his name along with the ability to score a top-of-the-line model wife. Did God not give him the same level of challenges you faced because he is naturally strong enough? Or people who are starving to death in 3rd world countries, are they being strengthened by God?

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@cable_extreme:

No one is created equal

No one gets equal treatment

Everyone is being strengthened by God

Not everyone learns to accept it

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King Saturn

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The discussion about Free Will has had me thinking a lot about how GOD "could" allow us to freely make choices on decisions and still know all things. Perhaps the one line that keeps coming to mind is this "GOD can do anything then he can accomplish us having freedom to choose and yet know all things". Omnipotence can accomplish this.

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#28063  Edited By Dernman
@king_saturn said:

The discussion about Free Will has had me thinking a lot about how GOD "could" allow us to freely make choices on decisions and still know all things. Perhaps the one line that keeps coming to mind is this "GOD can do anything then he can accomplish us having freedom to choose and yet know all things". Omnipotence can accomplish this.

Only talking hypothetical and philosophical here. Not coming from a believers perspective.

-----------------------------

Maybe already knowing defeats or hinder the purpose or point. Whatever that is.

----------------------

I see this type of thing alot. "If god is omnipotent, omniscient why doesn't he."

Well if he's really omniscient then he knows the best way for what should be. Better than us mortals who can't see everything like he can. We like to think we can see all the angles but we can't. Not only do we not know many the things we come up with we don't even know the things we don't know of.

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dshipp17

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Luke 10:25-42:

And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?

30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.

31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.

32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.

33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,

34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.

35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.

36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?

37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

38 Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house.

39 And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word.

40 But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me.

41 And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things:

42 But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.

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SpareHeadOne

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@dshipp17:

Do you think Martha served Jesus cucumbers because the Queen loves cucumber sandwiches?

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dshipp17

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#28066  Edited By dshipp17

@king_saturn:

“If GOD's foreknowledge is to know all things including the Events that lead up to the Outcome then what things or options are left to be varied outside of what GOD already knows ? I mean we can say we are choosing things from the Human Experience but I don't see how GOD's knowledge could not see the events that lead up to the very Outcome that will occur. In turn what GOD sees will happen.”

Allow me to answer that; the error in this assumption is all in how Jesus reshaped things. The impact of what Jesus is obviously far broader than just providing us salvation from our sin nature that was passed down from Adam.

Basically, the spirit of the New Testament is that God would intervene less in a direct way. God's work is now in the hand of true believing Christians as recognized by God. God will cast out demons and perform miracles at the behest of Christians, as it says in the New Testament.

Now, having said that, I believe what you're doing is what you last accused me of, and what you've been doing, trolling. I think the genuineness associated with your question was lost long ago; it's a matter of his having explained it, but you're not willing to appear to concede a point. Your question/response is not really a comeback, per se, just an effort to save face.

God having foreknowledge of what is to come has nothing to do with the event coming to past, at all. God's foreknowledge of things is in no way related to a person who has made a series of life long choices according to their free will. God provides a pathway out from a destructive outcome, tempers the situation such that it's not beyond what the person can bare, but, leaves the door open for the person to make other choices outside the correct choice. The alternative choice and the entity that has to be tempered is Satan and his demons. He's the sole cause of malicious activity for the sole sake of the destruction of the individual and humanity as a whole. When God does something that is related, it's for some good purpose that's designed to restore a good and positive outcome; or, to punish a person or people for wickedness but the outcome is for a good purpose for the greater good level of things rather than for the individual or group, at times. But, that was also Old Testament. We're now in the New Testament. Thus, the Bible already warns that God's next and final intervention for humanity, as a whole, will be according to the Book of Revelation; but, some overall calamities were already set in place as described by the prophets in the Old Testament. God extends His hand of chastisement to individual Christians right now.

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WolverineBatmanFTW

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My brother was run over by a car when I was 7 he died on the scene.

My Aunty blew herself away with a shot gun.

I've lost all my grandparents

My property burnt down in a bushfire and I lost all my family photos

And I had to nurse my first wife through cancer for four years until finally she died.

I cried every day as I drove to work and toward the end I would also scream and groan with emotional agony.

My brother went to jail because he was driving drunk and high and crashed killing his passenger. I finally got a stomach ulcer from that.

I got a new woman and her and her kids moved in. Her kids would piss on my tools and my weights. They would throw their shitty underwear on the roof so that we had their shit in our rainwater. They stole money and clothes and tools and toys from me and my children. After a year I started going Psycho, drinking and yelling and screaming and throwing stuff around. The cops were called a number of times.

I don't drink anymore. The kids are under control. I have a great relationship with my wife. I feel happy this year for the first time in ten years.

God is making me strong.

Not to detract from your post, but what did you mean by this?

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SpareHeadOne

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@wolverinebatmanftw:

Rom5:3 We exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4and perseverance, proven character;

James1:2 Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, 3knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. 4And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

Hebrews 2: 10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through suffering

Hebrews 5:8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. 9And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,

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SpareHeadOne

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@wolverinebatmanftw:

You wanted to know about the stomach ulcer? I just meant that one was bound to occur at some stage and it turned out to happen when my brother was arrested.

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WolverineBatmanFTW

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@spareheadone:

Oh, as in you got the bug the same time as your brother got arrested? I thought you meant your brother's arrest caused it, so I was like, confusion 100.

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King Saturn

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@dshipp17 said:

@king_saturn:

“If GOD's foreknowledge is to know all things including the Events that lead up to the Outcome then what things or options are left to be varied outside of what GOD already knows ? I mean we can say we are choosing things from the Human Experience but I don't see how GOD's knowledge could not see the events that lead up to the very Outcome that will occur. In turn what GOD sees will happen.”

Allow me to answer that; the error in this assumption is all in how Jesus reshaped things. The impact of what Jesus is obviously far broader than just providing us salvation from our sin nature that was passed down from Adam.

Basically, the spirit of the New Testament is that God would intervene less in a direct way. God's work is now in the hand of true believing Christians as recognized by God. God will cast out demons and perform miracles at the behest of Christians, as it says in the New Testament.

Now, having said that, I believe what you're doing is what you last accused me of, and what you've been doing, trolling. I think the genuineness associated with your question was lost long ago; it's a matter of his having explained it, but you're not willing to appear to concede a point. Your question/response is not really a comeback, per se, just an effort to save face.

God having foreknowledge of what is to come has nothing to do with the event coming to past, at all. God's foreknowledge of things is in no way related to a person who has made a series of life long choices according to their free will. God provides a pathway out from a destructive outcome, tempers the situation such that it's not beyond what the person can bare, but, leaves the door open for the person to make other choices outside the correct choice. The alternative choice and the entity that has to be tempered is Satan and his demons. He's the sole cause of malicious activity for the sole sake of the destruction of the individual and humanity as a whole. When God does something that is related, it's for some good purpose that's designed to restore a good and positive outcome; or, to punish a person or people for wickedness but the outcome is for a good purpose for the greater good level of things rather than for the individual or group, at times. But, that was also Old Testament. We're now in the New Testament. Thus, the Bible already warns that God's next and final intervention for humanity, as a whole, will be according to the Book of Revelation; but, some overall calamities were already set in place as described by the prophets in the Old Testament. God extends His hand of chastisement to individual Christians right now.

1. What does Jesus reshaping things have to do with GOD's Foreknowledge ? Did GOD change his mind after Jesus reshaped things ?

2. What does GOD less intervention have to do with GOD's Foreknowledge ? If GOD knows something will come to past what does his intervention have to do with it ?

3. So you don't think it's possible that GOD knowing everything means nothing else could happen but what GOD knows ? Are there not people who believe that this is the case in the world ? So how can it be trolling to debate whether or not GOD's foreknowledge is what will be and it unavoidable against our chooses do matter if this has been a real issue with people ?

4. How can GOD having Foreknowledge have nothing to do with an event coming to past or not ? Does not GOD prophesy things in the Bible ? So how does GOD's Foreknowledge not come into play with events coming to past ? You have to mean something else here. GOD may provide a way out of destruction but does that mean you can use it if GOD knows you will not go that way ?

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@dernman said:
@king_saturn said:

The discussion about Free Will has had me thinking a lot about how GOD "could" allow us to freely make choices on decisions and still know all things. Perhaps the one line that keeps coming to mind is this "GOD can do anything then he can accomplish us having freedom to choose and yet know all things". Omnipotence can accomplish this.

Only talking hypothetical and philosophical here. Not coming from a believers perspective.

-----------------------------

Maybe already knowing defeats or hinder the purpose or point. Whatever that is.

----------------------

I see this type of thing alot. "If god is omnipotent, omniscient why doesn't he."

Well if he's really omniscient then he knows the best way for what should be. Better than us mortals who can't see everything like he can. We like to think we can see all the angles but we can't. Not only do we not know many the things we come up with we don't even know the things we don't know of.

So bringing into question the very nature of GOD being Omniscient. Interesting.

Your last paragraph is Correct, though it would seem problematic at times from a Religious Text perspective if this could be true with the Nature of GOD compared to things happening in the Religious Text itself.

@king_saturn:

God just made you write that

Perhaps...

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#28073  Edited By dshipp17

@spareheadone said:

My brother was run over by a car when I was 7 he died on the scene.

My Aunty blew herself away with a shot gun.

I've lost all my grandparents

My property burnt down in a bushfire and I lost all my family photos

And I had to nurse my first wife through cancer for four years until finally she died.

I cried every day as I drove to work and toward the end I would also scream and groan with emotional agony.

My brother went to jail because he was driving drunk and high and crashed killing his passenger. I finally got a stomach ulcer from that.

I got a new woman and her and her kids moved in. Her kids would piss on my tools and my weights. They would throw their shitty underwear on the roof so that we had their shit in our rainwater. They stole money and clothes and tools and toys from me and my children. After a year I started going Psycho, drinking and yelling and screaming and throwing stuff around. The cops were called a number of times.

I don't drink anymore. The kids are under control. I have a great relationship with my wife. I feel happy this year for the first time in ten years.

God is making me strong.

Very sad to read about all of these calamities; maybe you learned to deal with stress using humor? But, good, don't get depressed; I deal with stress, or my body deals with stress, because I have a mind that likes to wonder and think about positive future prospects, in place of dwelling on the depressing issues in my life. I just didn't know, and still don't know if this is all something that you made up, given your track record of posts; but, now that several posters have addressed it, maybe there's some truth. Only God can help through His Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.

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#28075  Edited By SpareHeadOne
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Religion sucks most times

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@king_saturn:

“What does Jesus reshaping things have to do with GOD's Foreknowledge ? Did GOD change his mind after Jesus reshaped things ?”

Remember, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are one in the same in the Holy Trinity, although still different Entities. God is not just limited to just being one Person, like people.

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@dshipp17 said:

@king_saturn:

“What does Jesus reshaping things have to do with GOD's Foreknowledge ? Did GOD change his mind after Jesus reshaped things ?”

Remember, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are one in the same in the Holy Trinity, although still different Entities. God is not just limited to just being one Person, like people.

What does GOD being in Three Persons have to do with GOD's Foreknowledge though ? What changed to make GOD not be Omniscient ? What is the nature of GOD's Foreknowledge that he does not know all things anymore ?

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#28079  Edited By dshipp17

@king_saturn:

“What does GOD being in Three Persons have to do with GOD's Foreknowledge though ? What changed to make GOD not be Omniscient ? What is the nature of GOD's Foreknowledge that he does not know all things anymore ?”

The Bible shows that God could have foreknowledge by passing judgment, but, if a person confesses to their sin with contrition, God will alter the course of events for that person's sake; thus, Jesus, acting as the Lamb of God, redeemed all of us from a foreknowledge; but, at the same time, it's conditional; it's a work and a miracle of God to create such a paradox. Thus, it's an open invitation according to John 3:16. That's why Satan did his best to tempt Jesus in the desert.

Being Three Persons that is One Person means that God's foreknowledge was also the Redeemer Jesus's foreknowledge. God no longer sees us the same way, as He now has to view us through a different lens that was brought about by the Blood of Jesus. But, our actions are still being accounted for so that Christians will be judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ, while non-Christians will be Judged by God at the Great White Throne of Judgment; you're all safe, if you're at the Judgment Seat of Christ, meaning that you were in the Lambs Book of Life or Book of Life.

Outside of that additional information, I hark back to my previous point that God having foreknowledge of what you will do is independent of your ability to make an altered path via your free will; however, this altered path is usual from heading towards damnation into a path of Salvation according to John 3:16. For example, a supervisor or manager can suddenly predetermine that you won't be getting the job, after they have taken that split introductory few seconds to see how you look for the first time, in order to judge you by how you look, but that doesn't affect your decision to interview for the job, as people not quite as savvy, skeptical, and experienced as me about the psyche of supervisors would trust the process, not knowing that the process is rigged against them, despite people like me being there to warn them, but, rather they would instead want to consider us something else (e.g. a spiteful candidate or unqualified candidate or someone who needs to work harder, etc; but, that's all associated with that inexperienced optimism that you have leaving school, as you haven't been hit by dishonest and deceit yet, as someone who was truly innocent; and, also, the open secret that the process allows people to be discriminated based on their looks regularly, where there is no recourse, where this has been the case since at least Jacob and how the Bible shows how he preferred Rachel over Leah, where God proceeded to try to send Jacob a teaching lesson by making Rachel barren; and, it's unclear whether Jacob ever really got God's teaching lesson, except, currently, the open secret hurts men a lot more, as it's somewhat more of a stigma for men to grieve about it); except God is much more just than wicked supervisors and managers and He actually prefers that the process be rigged towards your success as demonstrated by Jesus and in the Old Testament where He was quick to change His decision to punish, but, at the same time, slow to punish.

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God has created a way to give himself surprises and wonders and challenges and failures. We are it.

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11:45-54:

Then answered one of the lawyers, and said unto him, Master, thus saying thou reproachest us also.

46 And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers.

47 Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them.

48 Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres.

49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:

50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

53 And as he said these things unto them, the scribes and the Pharisees began to urge him vehemently, and to provoke him to speak of many things:

54 Laying wait for him, and seeking to catch something out of his mouth, that they might accuse him.

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@dshipp17 said:

@king_saturn:

“What does GOD being in Three Persons have to do with GOD's Foreknowledge though ? What changed to make GOD not be Omniscient ? What is the nature of GOD's Foreknowledge that he does not know all things anymore ?”

The Bible shows that God could have foreknowledge by passing judgment, but, if a person confesses to their sin with contrition, God will alter the course of events for that person's sake; thus, Jesus, acting as the Lamb of God, redeemed all of us from a foreknowledge; but, at the same time, it's conditional; it's a work and a miracle of God to create such a paradox. Thus, it's an open invitation according to John 3:16. That's why Satan did his best to tempt Jesus in the desert.

Being Three Persons that is One Person means that God's foreknowledge was also the Redeemer Jesus's foreknowledge. God no longer sees us the same way, as He now has to view us through a different lens that was brought about by the Blood of Jesus. But, our actions are still being accounted for so that Christians will be judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ, while non-Christians will be Judged by God at the Great White Throne of Judgment; you're all safe, if you're at the Judgment Seat of Christ, meaning that you were in the Lambs Book of Life or Book of Life.

Outside of that additional information, I hark back to my previous point that God having foreknowledge of what you will do is independent of your ability to make an altered path via your free will; however, this altered path is usual from heading towards damnation into a path of Salvation according to John 3:16. For example, a supervisor or manager can suddenly predetermine that you won't be getting the job, after they have taken that split introductory few seconds to see how you look for the first time, in order to judge you by how you look, but that doesn't affect your decision to interview for the job, as people not quite as savvy, skeptical, and experienced as me about the psyche of supervisors would trust the process, not knowing that the process is rigged against them, despite people like me being there to warn them, but, rather they would instead want to consider us something else (e.g. a spiteful candidate or unqualified candidate or someone who needs to work harder, etc; but, that's all associated with that inexperienced optimism that you have leaving school, as you haven't been hit by dishonest and deceit yet, as someone who was truly innocent; and, also, the open secret that the process allows people to be discriminated based on their looks regularly, where there is no recourse, where this has been the case since at least Jacob and how the Bible shows how he preferred Rachel over Leah, where God proceeded to try to send Jacob a teaching lesson by making Rachel barren; and, it's unclear whether Jacob ever really got God's teaching lesson, except, currently, the open secret hurts men a lot more, as it's somewhat more of a stigma for men to grieve about it); except God is much more just than wicked supervisors and managers and He actually prefers that the process be rigged towards your success as demonstrated by Jesus and in the Old Testament where He was quick to change His decision to punish, but, at the same time, slow to punish.

1. The Bible says that GOD does foreknow things Not could foreknow things. Heck even in Romans 8:29 it speaks of GOD foreknowing those he would conform into the Image of Jesus Christ. The question is does GOD foreknowledge make it so that events can not be changed, but that all that would happen will happen according to whatever GOD knows will happen. You can not just say GOD alters a person's course of events, you got to show that it is so with Bible Scriptures otherwise it's just your opinion. On another point, Why does GOD need you to believe in Jesus for the Work of Jesus to Save you ? I mean if Jesus died for the Sins of the World, why do you have to believe in it to have Salvation ? Is not the work itself enough to save everyone ?

2. This is not what we are talking about with GOD's Foreknowledge. We are speaking on the Vast Expansion of what GOD knows and how he knows all things before they happen.

3. You will have to prove this because it does not make sense to say GOD is Omniscient but does not have knowledge of our Outcomes. It's like speaking double talk. GOD may not cause our choices but to say GOD does not know our Outcomes via his Omniscience does not make much sense. Are you kidding ? GOD was very quick to punish in the Old Testament. You can read through Numbers and see this easily. GOD would constantly send Plagues or Death to the Israelites because they would complain about not having Food or having Bad Food while they was in the Wilderness. Do we have to bring up how The Almighty killed 70,000 People because David took a Census ? GOD showed mercy in the Old Testament a lot less than he would decide to punish people.

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#28083  Edited By dshipp17

@king_saturn:

“Are you kidding ? GOD was very quick to punish in the Old Testament. You can read through Numbers and see this easily. GOD would constantly send Plagues or Death to the Israelites because they would complain about not having Food or having Bad Food while they was in the Wilderness. Do we have to bring up how The Almighty killed 70,000 People because David took a Census ? GOD showed mercy in the Old Testament a lot less than he would decide to punish people.”

I'm not kidding, at all. God was slow to act, such that a contrite heart could be found. God was about to punish Moses with death, but his wife met with God with a contrite heart and God withheld judgment or altered His course or plans, due to a contrite heart to confess a wrong and an effort or a desire to repent from the wrong. Neither of the situations that you mentioned involved people who had contrite hearts and was going to alter their path in any foreseeable future. These examples occurred after periods of prolonged wickedness. The Bible consistently used the phrase “and they did that which was evil in the eyes of God”, extending back to shortly after the rein of Joshua.

David took the census at the advisement of Satan and in disobedience to God, where many of those people were also living wicked lives. Evil is a big red flag, when the Bible takes time to mention the involvement of Satan. And Satan and his demons is the unmentioned plague, when it's necessary to mention “and they did that which was evil in the eyes of God".

“You will have to prove this because it does not make sense to say GOD is Omniscient but does not have knowledge of our Outcomes. It's like speaking double talk. GOD may not cause our choices but to say GOD does not know our Outcomes via his Omniscience does not make much sense.”

What, in respect to my example of a wicked supervisor or manager, during a job interview versus God? In that, God is looking to rig the process in one's favor like a job interview is looking to rig the process against someone? Obviously, first and foremost and clearly, the primary but ignored purpose of a job interview, to the extent that most people have found a way to dismiss it altogether, in a procedural design, is an opportunity to see how someone looks, especially a man, so as to then rig the process against him, despite the prior foreknowledge that he was actually qualified for the position; but, a double hit, is say that man has a speech impediment; in this day and age, this only exists in auditions for something like a movie role, if a woman is involved, but, as well as men also.

God wants one to understand John 3:16 so that He can rig the process in favor of someone, while what you're trying to make a case for is that there are people who has God Himself rigging a process against them. However, people lose out, because they've used a lifetime of opportunities to avoid God, despite many warnings, usually the constant ringing in the ear statements from His Christians warning you to confess and repent of your sins. In order for God to start rigging things in your favor, all He requires is a contrite heart to just confess your sins to Him, along with your best effort, under the circumstances, to just make an effort to repent, contrary to what some pastors want to preach.

Surely, you can see the difference, where one process is organized and invented by Satan, with the other being God's original plan; the wicked supervisor or manager is always looking to rig the process against someone who is undesirable, because of his looks, while God is always looking for ways to rig the process in their favor in order to be accepted by Him for a world of undesirables, as being sinners; in the case of God, He's looking to bring into the tent the people who have speech impediments and problems with their looks, as well as people without these problems. God allows the people with problems with their looks to persist in His company for as long as possible, while managers and supervisors either want to prevent these people from making it into their company altogether, but, where they do make it in, somehow, to eliminate them as quickly as possible.

“The Bible says that GOD does foreknow things Not could foreknow things. Heck even in Romans 8:29 it speaks of GOD foreknowing those he would conform into the Image of Jesus Christ. The question is does GOD foreknowledge make it so that events can not be changed, but that all that would happen will happen according to whatever GOD knows will happen.”

The answer is clearly no, as that isn't the nature of God; the will of God is that none should perish, while you ask if God would essentially rig the process such that some, if not most, people are destined to perish. This shouldn't even be a rational question for you, now that John 3:16 has been raised several times now.

Again, in my example between someone who wants to conduct a job interview versus God: the supervisor who invites you to the job interview has very limited and flawed foreknowledge of the pool of qualified candidates, where the application process involves screening more applicants than the process can really handle, where the interview is then designed to rig the process against you, first and foremost, if you're someone who happens to have problems with his looks, versus God, who has everyone disqualified, when entering life, but provides many opportunities for you to not have ever missed, in order to rig the process to include you into His company that is the Kingdom of Heaven, except it's usually you who excludes yourself from being accepted into His company throughout your life.

Case and point, John 3:16; if you make the effort, but have a preacher who is hellbent on convincing you that your outcome is set, God will make sure that you have many opportunities to have received the correct information that you can then use to save yourself, simply by making a choice to take John 3:16 as literally as it sounds to make a choice to save yourself without any difficulty, at all; just a decision to one day, become contrite and accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, and explore your options to that end. But, in the job interview, provided you've made it through that first, unmentioned barrier, you're contently on pens and needles, where something else could be used to weed you out, such as your race, or, simply being nervous or breaking under pressure and having an awkward moment that will then be used to exclude you; surely, someone should notice the difference, but, not necessarily, so it's good to have it explained properly.

“Why does GOD need you to believe in Jesus for the Work of Jesus to Save you ? I mean if Jesus died for the Sins of the World, why do you have to believe in it to have Salvation ? Is not the work itself enough to save everyone ?”

So that the free will process can take place for each given individual. God wants you to want to be with Him and to be saved by Him. And, this was demonstrated way back with what He told Cain. But, Cain, instead, became a usually misunderstood caricature, when he instead murdered Abel out of envy (e.g. but many people mistakenly took this example to mean that Abel was perfect and Cain was cursed of God from the very get go).

Surely, you understand how disruptive an environment could eventually become, when you have people who either don't want to be there or don't belong there; but, God makes a way for the ones who otherwise wouldn't belong, by working from within them, provided they've had that moment of contrition, confessed to their sins, and intended to repent (e.g. I'll use my own weakness again; I would like to not have a problem with masturbating, but, sometimes, the impulse takes over and just drives me to it; but, God is still there for me and not looking for that as a basis to excluded me, as He just used a pastor and other means such as YouTube videos to guide me to 1 John 1:6; thus, the example of a recovering addict; however, most preachers will twist the Scripture, because they want God to lose His patience one day and relieve you of your salvation, even though you could be contrite and well intended; I like this phrase by another pastor who spoke on the issue when he said: you can't be perfect enough to be accept of God, outside of Jesus, and you can't be imperfect enough to be rejected by God, once you have accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior; additionally, Revelation sort of shows that there will be people in Heaven who are not entirely perfect, with the example of the victims of persecution asking for God to bring forth judgment upon their persecutors; however, it's an issue that I constantly take to God in confession according to 1 John 1:6, but, just simply asking for forgiveness, just before God guided my path, while being concerned about whether God would eventually lose His patience with me).

What's important to God is that you want to be with Him and know Him; this would be valid for even non-Christians, based on the example of Cain, which, in tern, applied to Job later on down the road; except, you can't have rejected or avoided the free gift of Salvation that is Jesus, in the process; mostly, this would have been how people were saved before Jesus entered the picture, as the Cain example always existed.

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@dshipp17 said:

@king_saturn:

“Are you kidding ? GOD was very quick to punish in the Old Testament. You can read through Numbers and see this easily. GOD would constantly send Plagues or Death to the Israelites because they would complain about not having Food or having Bad Food while they was in the Wilderness. Do we have to bring up how The Almighty killed 70,000 People because David took a Census ? GOD showed mercy in the Old Testament a lot less than he would decide to punish people.”

I'm not kidding, at all. God was slow to act, such that a contrite heart could be found. God was about to punish Moses with death, but his wife met with God with a contrite heart and God withheld judgment or altered His course or plans, due to a contrite heart to confess a wrong and an effort or a desire to repent from the wrong. Neither of the situations that you mentioned involved people who had contrite hearts and was going to alter their path in any foreseeable future. These examples occurred after periods of prolonged wickedness. The Bible consistently used the phrase “and they did that which was evil in the eyes of God”, extending back to shortly after the rein of Joshua.

David took the census at the advisement of Satan and in disobedience to God, where many of those people were also living wicked lives. Evil is a big red flag, when the Bible takes time to mention the involvement of Satan. And Satan and his demons is the unmentioned plague, when it's necessary to mention “and they did that which was evil in the eyes of God".

“You will have to prove this because it does not make sense to say GOD is Omniscient but does not have knowledge of our Outcomes. It's like speaking double talk. GOD may not cause our choices but to say GOD does not know our Outcomes via his Omniscience does not make much sense.”

What, in respect to my example of a wicked supervisor or manager, during a job interview versus God? In that, God is looking to rig the process in one's favor like a job interview is looking to rig the process against someone? Obviously, first and foremost and clearly, the primary but ignored purpose of a job interview, to the extent that most people have found a way to dismiss it altogether, in a procedural design, is an opportunity to see how someone looks, especially a man, so as to then rig the process against him, despite the prior foreknowledge that he was actually qualified for the position; but, a double hit, is say that man has a speech impediment; in this day and age, this only exists in auditions for something like a movie role, if a woman is involved, but, as well as men also.

God wants one to understand John 3:16 so that He can rig the process in favor of someone, while what you're trying to make a case for is that there are people who has God Himself rigging a process against them. However, people lose out, because they've used a lifetime of opportunities to avoid God, despite many warnings, usually the constant ringing in the ear statements from His Christians warning you to confess and repent of your sins. In order for God to start rigging things in your favor, all He requires is a contrite heart to just confess your sins to Him, along with your best effort, under the circumstances, to just make an effort to repent, contrary to what some pastors want to preach.

Surely, you can see the difference, where one process is organized and invented by Satan, with the other being God's original plan; the wicked supervisor or manager is always looking to rig the process against someone who is undesirable, because of his looks, while God is always looking for ways to rig the process in their favor in order to be accepted by Him for a world of undesirables, as being sinners; in the case of God, He's looking to bring into the tent the people who have speech impediments and problems with their looks, as well as people without these problems. God allows the people with problems with their looks to persist in His company for as long as possible, while managers and supervisors either want to prevent these people from making it into their company altogether, but, where they do make it in, somehow, to eliminate them as quickly as possible.

“The Bible says that GOD does foreknow things Not could foreknow things. Heck even in Romans 8:29 it speaks of GOD foreknowing those he would conform into the Image of Jesus Christ. The question is does GOD foreknowledge make it so that events can not be changed, but that all that would happen will happen according to whatever GOD knows will happen.”

The answer is clearly no, as that isn't the nature of God; the will of God is that none should perish, while you ask if God would essentially rig the process such that some, if not most, people are destined to perish. This shouldn't even be a rational question for you, now that John 3:16 has been raised several times now.

Again, in my example between someone who wants to conduct a job interview versus God: the supervisor who invites you to the job interview has very limited and flawed foreknowledge of the pool of qualified candidates, where the application process involves screening more applicants than the process can really handle, where the interview is then designed to rig the process against you, first and foremost, if you're someone who happens to have problems with his looks, versus God, who has everyone disqualified, when entering life, but provides many opportunities for you to not have ever missed, in order to rig the process to include you into His company that is the Kingdom of Heaven, except it's usually you who excludes yourself from being accepted into His company throughout your life.

Case and point, John 3:16; if you make the effort, but have a preacher who is hellbent on convincing you that your outcome is set, God will make sure that you have many opportunities to have received the correct information that you can then use to save yourself, simply by making a choice to take John 3:16 as literally as it sounds to make a choice to save yourself without any difficulty, at all; just a decision to one day, become contrite and accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, and explore your options to that end. But, in the job interview, provided you've made it through that first, unmentioned barrier, you're contently on pens and needles, where something else could be used to weed you out, such as your race, or, simply being nervous or breaking under pressure and having an awkward moment that will then be used to exclude you; surely, someone should notice the difference, but, not necessarily, so it's good to have it explained properly.

“Why does GOD need you to believe in Jesus for the Work of Jesus to Save you ? I mean if Jesus died for the Sins of the World, why do you have to believe in it to have Salvation ? Is not the work itself enough to save everyone ?”

So that the free will process can take place for each given individual. God wants you to want to be with Him and to be saved by Him. And, this was demonstrated way back with what He told Cain. But, Cain, instead, became a usually misunderstood caricature, when he instead murdered Abel out of envy (e.g. but many people mistakenly took this example to mean that Abel was perfect and Cain was cursed of God from the very get go).

Surely, you understand how disruptive an environment could eventually become, when you have people who either don't want to be there or don't belong there; but, God makes a way for the ones who otherwise wouldn't belong, by working from within them, provided they've had that moment of contrition, confessed to their sins, and intended to repent (e.g. I'll use my own weakness again; I would like to not have a problem with masturbating, but, sometimes, the impulse takes over and just drives me to it; but, God is still there for me and not looking for that as a basis to excluded me, as He just used a pastor and other means such as YouTube videos to guide me to 1 John 1:6; thus, the example of a recovering addict; however, most preachers will twist the Scripture, because they want God to lose His patience one day and relieve you of your salvation, even though you could be contrite and well intended; I like this phrase by another pastor who spoke on the issue when he said: you can't be perfect enough to be accept of God, outside of Jesus, and you can't be imperfect enough to be rejected by God, once you have accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior; additionally, Revelation sort of shows that there will be people in Heaven who are not entirely perfect, with the example of the victims of persecution asking for God to bring forth judgment upon their persecutors; however, it's an issue that I constantly take to God in confession according to 1 John 1:6, but, just simply asking for forgiveness, just before God guided my path, while being concerned about whether God would eventually lose His patience with me).

What's important to God is that you want to be with Him and know Him; this would be valid for even non-Christians, based on the example of Cain, which, in tern, applied to Job later on down the road; except, you can't have rejected or avoided the free gift of Salvation that is Jesus, in the process; mostly, this would have been how people were saved before Jesus entered the picture, as the Cain example always existed.

1. Alright, I will let the Bible speak for itself and we shall see how "Slow to Anger" GOD was.

Numbers 11 : 1 - 2 "And when the people complained, it displeased the LORD, and the LORD heard it and his anger was kindled, and the Fire of the LORD burnt among them and consumed them that was in the uttermost parts of the Camp. And the People prayed to Moses, and when Moses prayed unto the LORD the fire was quenched".

Now you see it here that GOD killed people with Fire because they was complaining about the Food. Not because of some prolonged time of doing Evil. The Israelites complained, GOD got Mad and he burned some of the up. No slow to Anger here.

Alright, lets look at another instance.

Numbers 21 : 4 - 6 " They traveled from Mount Hor along the route to the Rea Sea to go around Edom. But the people grew impatient on the way, they spoke against GOD and Moses and said, Why have you brought up out of Egypt to die in the Wilderness ? There is no bread. There is no water. And we destes this miserable food ! Then the LORD sent venomous snakes among them, they bite the people and many Israelites died".

Now here is another case of GOD not being slow to Anger. The Israelites complained, GOD heard it and got Mad again, and GOD sent those snakes to bite and kill many of the Israelites.

Now lets talk about David and the Census again. The passage in particular 1 Chronicles 21 never says that the Israelites did something wrong, it only says that David's Sin caused Israel to be punished. Now if GOD is slow to anger, Why is GOD punishing Israel right after David did something wrong ? Why is GOD punishing so many for the Sin of one man if GOD is slow to Anger ?

2. Your analogy about the Supervisor does not work. GOD's Foreknowledge is not as limited as a Supervisor knowing about an Employee. The Bible has multiple passages about GOD knowing all things and knowing things before they come to past. There is no Satan's Plan vs GOD's Plan, it's all GOD's Plan.

3. How can it not be the Nature of GOD when the Bible says that GOD foreknows who he will fashion like unto Jesus Christ in Romans 8 ? The Bible is wrong about this ? How do you know that the "Whosoever" in John 3:16 is not speaking of those GOD's foreknows already whom he will save as stated in Romans ?

4. Is that what is happening though ? The Free Will Process as you call it might not be as Free as you think it is considering GOD has chosen his elect whom he will Save with Jesus according to some scriptures in the Bible. Romans 8:29 for example.

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#28085  Edited By dshipp17

@king_saturn said:
@dshipp17 said:

@king_saturn:

“Are you kidding ? GOD was very quick to punish in the Old Testament. You can read through Numbers and see this easily. GOD would constantly send Plagues or Death to the Israelites because they would complain about not having Food or having Bad Food while they was in the Wilderness. Do we have to bring up how The Almighty killed 70,000 People because David took a Census ? GOD showed mercy in the Old Testament a lot less than he would decide to punish people.”

I'm not kidding, at all. God was slow to act, such that a contrite heart could be found. God was about to punish Moses with death, but his wife met with God with a contrite heart and God withheld judgment or altered His course or plans, due to a contrite heart to confess a wrong and an effort or a desire to repent from the wrong. Neither of the situations that you mentioned involved people who had contrite hearts and was going to alter their path in any foreseeable future. These examples occurred after periods of prolonged wickedness. The Bible consistently used the phrase “and they did that which was evil in the eyes of God”, extending back to shortly after the rein of Joshua.

David took the census at the advisement of Satan and in disobedience to God, where many of those people were also living wicked lives. Evil is a big red flag, when the Bible takes time to mention the involvement of Satan. And Satan and his demons is the unmentioned plague, when it's necessary to mention “and they did that which was evil in the eyes of God".

“You will have to prove this because it does not make sense to say GOD is Omniscient but does not have knowledge of our Outcomes. It's like speaking double talk. GOD may not cause our choices but to say GOD does not know our Outcomes via his Omniscience does not make much sense.”

What, in respect to my example of a wicked supervisor or manager, during a job interview versus God? In that, God is looking to rig the process in one's favor like a job interview is looking to rig the process against someone? Obviously, first and foremost and clearly, the primary but ignored purpose of a job interview, to the extent that most people have found a way to dismiss it altogether, in a procedural design, is an opportunity to see how someone looks, especially a man, so as to then rig the process against him, despite the prior foreknowledge that he was actually qualified for the position; but, a double hit, is say that man has a speech impediment; in this day and age, this only exists in auditions for something like a movie role, if a woman is involved, but, as well as men also.

God wants one to understand John 3:16 so that He can rig the process in favor of someone, while what you're trying to make a case for is that there are people who has God Himself rigging a process against them. However, people lose out, because they've used a lifetime of opportunities to avoid God, despite many warnings, usually the constant ringing in the ear statements from His Christians warning you to confess and repent of your sins. In order for God to start rigging things in your favor, all He requires is a contrite heart to just confess your sins to Him, along with your best effort, under the circumstances, to just make an effort to repent, contrary to what some pastors want to preach.

Surely, you can see the difference, where one process is organized and invented by Satan, with the other being God's original plan; the wicked supervisor or manager is always looking to rig the process against someone who is undesirable, because of his looks, while God is always looking for ways to rig the process in their favor in order to be accepted by Him for a world of undesirables, as being sinners; in the case of God, He's looking to bring into the tent the people who have speech impediments and problems with their looks, as well as people without these problems. God allows the people with problems with their looks to persist in His company for as long as possible, while managers and supervisors either want to prevent these people from making it into their company altogether, but, where they do make it in, somehow, to eliminate them as quickly as possible.

“The Bible says that GOD does foreknow things Not could foreknow things. Heck even in Romans 8:29 it speaks of GOD foreknowing those he would conform into the Image of Jesus Christ. The question is does GOD foreknowledge make it so that events can not be changed, but that all that would happen will happen according to whatever GOD knows will happen.”

The answer is clearly no, as that isn't the nature of God; the will of God is that none should perish, while you ask if God would essentially rig the process such that some, if not most, people are destined to perish. This shouldn't even be a rational question for you, now that John 3:16 has been raised several times now.

Again, in my example between someone who wants to conduct a job interview versus God: the supervisor who invites you to the job interview has very limited and flawed foreknowledge of the pool of qualified candidates, where the application process involves screening more applicants than the process can really handle, where the interview is then designed to rig the process against you, first and foremost, if you're someone who happens to have problems with his looks, versus God, who has everyone disqualified, when entering life, but provides many opportunities for you to not have ever missed, in order to rig the process to include you into His company that is the Kingdom of Heaven, except it's usually you who excludes yourself from being accepted into His company throughout your life.

Case and point, John 3:16; if you make the effort, but have a preacher who is hellbent on convincing you that your outcome is set, God will make sure that you have many opportunities to have received the correct information that you can then use to save yourself, simply by making a choice to take John 3:16 as literally as it sounds to make a choice to save yourself without any difficulty, at all; just a decision to one day, become contrite and accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, and explore your options to that end. But, in the job interview, provided you've made it through that first, unmentioned barrier, you're contently on pens and needles, where something else could be used to weed you out, such as your race, or, simply being nervous or breaking under pressure and having an awkward moment that will then be used to exclude you; surely, someone should notice the difference, but, not necessarily, so it's good to have it explained properly.

“Why does GOD need you to believe in Jesus for the Work of Jesus to Save you ? I mean if Jesus died for the Sins of the World, why do you have to believe in it to have Salvation ? Is not the work itself enough to save everyone ?”

So that the free will process can take place for each given individual. God wants you to want to be with Him and to be saved by Him. And, this was demonstrated way back with what He told Cain. But, Cain, instead, became a usually misunderstood caricature, when he instead murdered Abel out of envy (e.g. but many people mistakenly took this example to mean that Abel was perfect and Cain was cursed of God from the very get go).

Surely, you understand how disruptive an environment could eventually become, when you have people who either don't want to be there or don't belong there; but, God makes a way for the ones who otherwise wouldn't belong, by working from within them, provided they've had that moment of contrition, confessed to their sins, and intended to repent (e.g. I'll use my own weakness again; I would like to not have a problem with masturbating, but, sometimes, the impulse takes over and just drives me to it; but, God is still there for me and not looking for that as a basis to excluded me, as He just used a pastor and other means such as YouTube videos to guide me to 1 John 1:6; thus, the example of a recovering addict; however, most preachers will twist the Scripture, because they want God to lose His patience one day and relieve you of your salvation, even though you could be contrite and well intended; I like this phrase by another pastor who spoke on the issue when he said: you can't be perfect enough to be accept of God, outside of Jesus, and you can't be imperfect enough to be rejected by God, once you have accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior; additionally, Revelation sort of shows that there will be people in Heaven who are not entirely perfect, with the example of the victims of persecution asking for God to bring forth judgment upon their persecutors; however, it's an issue that I constantly take to God in confession according to 1 John 1:6, but, just simply asking for forgiveness, just before God guided my path, while being concerned about whether God would eventually lose His patience with me).

What's important to God is that you want to be with Him and know Him; this would be valid for even non-Christians, based on the example of Cain, which, in tern, applied to Job later on down the road; except, you can't have rejected or avoided the free gift of Salvation that is Jesus, in the process; mostly, this would have been how people were saved before Jesus entered the picture, as the Cain example always existed.

1. Alright, I will let the Bible speak for itself and we shall see how "Slow to Anger" GOD was.

Numbers 11 : 1 - 2 "And when the people complained, it displeased the LORD, and the LORD heard it and his anger was kindled, and the Fire of the LORD burnt among them and consumed them that was in the uttermost parts of the Camp. And the People prayed to Moses, and when Moses prayed unto the LORD the fire was quenched".

Now you see it here that GOD killed people with Fire because they was complaining about the Food. Not because of some prolonged time of doing Evil. The Israelites complained, GOD got Mad and he burned some of the up. No slow to Anger here.

Alright, lets look at another instance.

Numbers 21 : 4 - 6 " They traveled from Mount Hor along the route to the Rea Sea to go around Edom. But the people grew impatient on the way, they spoke against GOD and Moses and said, Why have you brought up out of Egypt to die in the Wilderness ? There is no bread. There is no water. And we destes this miserable food ! Then the LORD sent venomous snakes among them, they bite the people and many Israelites died".

Now here is another case of GOD not being slow to Anger. The Israelites complained, GOD heard it and got Mad again, and GOD sent those snakes to bite and kill many of the Israelites.

Now lets talk about David and the Census again. The passage in particular 1 Chronicles 21 never says that the Israelites did something wrong, it only says that David's Sin caused Israel to be punished. Now if GOD is slow to anger, Why is GOD punishing Israel right after David did something wrong ? Why is GOD punishing so many for the Sin of one man if GOD is slow to Anger ?

2. Your analogy about the Supervisor does not work. GOD's Foreknowledge is not as limited as a Supervisor knowing about an Employee. The Bible has multiple passages about GOD knowing all things and knowing things before they come to past. There is no Satan's Plan vs GOD's Plan, it's all GOD's Plan.

3. How can it not be the Nature of GOD when the Bible says that GOD foreknows who he will fashion like unto Jesus Christ in Romans 8 ? The Bible is wrong about this ? How do you know that the "Whosoever" in John 3:16 is not speaking of those GOD's foreknows already whom he will save as stated in Romans ?

4. Is that what is happening though ? The Free Will Process as you call it might not be as Free as you think it is considering GOD has chosen his elect whom he will Save with Jesus according to some scriptures in the Bible. Romans 8:29 for example.

“How can it not be the Nature of GOD when the Bible says that GOD foreknows who he will fashion like unto Jesus Christ in Romans 8 ? The Bible is wrong about this ? How do you know that the "Whosoever" in John 3:16 is not speaking of those GOD's foreknows already whom he will save as stated in Romans ? Is that what is happening though ? The Free Will Process as you call it might not be as Free as you think it is considering GOD has chosen his elect whom he will Save with Jesus according to some scriptures in the Bible. Romans 8:29 for example.”

I can know, due to the overall context of the Bible, as it pertains to the nature and character of God (e.g. His goal is to save, but He will also punish disobedience and sin; while, on the other hand, Satan is actively seeking who he can steal, kill, and destroy, while God is seeking to provide life more abundantly). As a whole, God allows a person's free will to guide their path, while God is always their providing subtle, but noticeable cues to everyone of what the right choice should be. Why would whosoever need to take a different meaning than what it is said to mean? Prior to that, it says that God so loved the world, meaning a general and all encompassing love of the world. Essentially, in order for John 3:16 to be nullified, it would mean that a contrite person who accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior would be rigged to some day lose his salvation, where other verses, such as the one that says that nothing can separate someone from the love of God, would need to be contradicted; essentially, it would have to mean that God is tempting someone such that they can be lead to their destruction, which is the character of Satan; it would basically mean that Jesus's redemption is imperfect.

The stray examples that people rely on can always be explained away by looking to the intended context; basically, God's interaction with Cain set His nature in stone, as, there are verses available that shows that God responds favorably to contrition and those who diligently seek Him. There are like about 3 other verses that I could cite in response to Romans 8 that would show that God is looking to save as many people as He can; again, God has only usually been known to rigged the process to a person's success or favor for their salvation.

In this sense, you're asking a rhetorical question where, on the other-hand, you're also implying that God is actively trying to work against or avoid saving others, even in the face of John 3:16. Again, having a foreknowledge of who will be saved has no impact on someone who has decided to exercised their free will to be saved (e.g. at this point, what you're trying to make a case for is God wanting to avoid or prevent others from being saved, despite their better effort, and even if it involves them abiding by John 3:16, such that God contradicts what He says, when He said that what He wants to happen so as to resemble something that is more in the character of Satan, as, this would be a person who started to diligently pursue God with contrition, usually seeking atonement; that would be an individual that God would welcome, not an individual who He'd consider somehow beyond redemption; again, it's the overall context of God's nature in the Bible, not a stray verse here and there that appears to say something different, when you can look at the context).

Looking into the overall context of Romans 8 shows that it isn't trying to make the point that some people are predestined so as to fall in contradiction to John 3:16, while there is an elect group of people; Romans 8:1: There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. In order to become apart of Christ, you would have to first abide by John 3:16, as your only pathway (e.g. Jesus says that I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but by Me).

Romans 8, in context, is really trying describe by illustration the previous state of flesh before Jesus did His work, versus the state of the Spirit, after He completed His work. The context isn't intended to be discussing a person's predestination, per se, particularly, not in the context of our exchange, as well as within the context of your prior exchanges about this topic. Basically, it's saying as I said before, once you become a genuine Christian, the Holy Spirit will become your Guide, as to the right thing to do, where we're no longer bound by the Law from the Old Testament. Grieving the Holy Spirit, in tern, leads to ones chastisement, a sign that God considers you His

“Numbers 11 : 1 - 2 "And when the people complained, it displeased the LORD, and the LORD heard it and his anger was kindled, and the Fire of the LORD burnt among them and consumed them that was in the uttermost parts of the Camp. And the People prayed to Moses, and when Moses prayed unto the LORD the fire was quenched".

Now you see it here that GOD killed people with Fire because they was complaining about the Food. Not because of some prolonged time of doing Evil. The Israelites complained, GOD got Mad and he burned some of the up. No slow to Anger here.”

But, this was a prolonged process of complaining, even after God had provided for the people. As you seem to be implying, God didn't become angry at the first sign of a complaint or as a reaction to the first moment of a complaint. Later in the Chapter, God took a number of extraordinary measures designed to address the people, even though their continued complaining further upset Him. The people had food to eat, but they were complaining about not getting some preferred food that they'd previously received.

“Now lets talk about David and the Census again. The passage in particular 1 Chronicles 21 never says that the Israelites did something wrong, it only says that David's Sin caused Israel to be punished. Now if GOD is slow to anger, Why is GOD punishing Israel right after David did something wrong ? Why is GOD punishing so many for the Sin of one man if GOD is slow to Anger ?”

The full context and description of the incident is not provided; thus, I can't answer such specific questions about the incident, except to say that Satan was involved, as 1 Chronicles 21:1-4: And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel. 2 And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan; and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it.

3 And Joab answered, The Lord make his people an hundred times so many more as they be: but, my lord the king, are they not all my lord's servants? why then doth my lord require this thing? why will he be a cause of trespass to Israel? 4 Nevertheless the king's word prevailed against Joab. Wherefore Joab departed, and went throughout all Israel, and came to Jerusalem.

From the context of this Scripture, it appears that David was more intent on obeying Satan than he was for obeying God. The context of this verse can also imply that the people were in fact doing something evil, as the only possibility, if they were considered being under the influence of Satan, which probably includes his demons. This is basically saying that they fell under the temptation of Satan and started to live in sin in some way. Thus, God brought about judgment upon them in order to bring them back into the path of righteousness. This is the general order of things, as people, including, and especially, genuine Christians are constantly being tempted by the Devil and his demons to sin against God; thus, in some way, they were all sinning against God; the taking of the census was just involved in the process in some way (e.g. it's like saying that someone wore a condom, but leaving out that they were also fornicating or committing adultery; the condom seems innocent enough, but, it's not the whole story and context all by itself). By the same token, they were not innocent; it's just that the responsibility to stop them fell upon David, as Joab tried to advise David unsuccessfully; he was the leader and the King of Israel, at the time, so, that was also factor; God still had use of David, is also part of why things went the way they did.

“Your analogy about the Supervisor does not work. GOD's Foreknowledge is not as limited as a Supervisor knowing about an Employee. The Bible has multiple passages about GOD knowing all things and knowing things before they come to past. There is no Satan's Plan vs GOD's Plan, it's all GOD's Plan.”

If you were following along properly, it should have worked (e.g. my analogy was that the supervisor is trying to rig the process so that successful people ultimately end up losing out, in the spirit of favoritism, a device or plan in the spirit of Satan, while God is trying to rig the process so that the unsuccessful should succeed; the only other possibility would be to say that God is actually trying to rig Christians for failure or trying to prevent people from becoming Christian so as to keep them set for eternal damnation, which is clearly contrary to what the Bible demonstrates God's character to be, in His desire that none should perish but have everlasting life).

To the contrary, there is a Satan Plan versus God's Plan (e.g. Satan seeks to steal, kill, and destroy versus God wanting everyone to have life and have it more abundantly). However, God controls so as to place limitations on the destruction that Satan is allowed to cause; this is so that free will can fairly play out.

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@dshipp17 said:

“How can it not be the Nature of GOD when the Bible says that GOD foreknows who he will fashion like unto Jesus Christ in Romans 8 ? The Bible is wrong about this ? How do you know that the "Whosoever" in John 3:16 is not speaking of those GOD's foreknows already whom he will save as stated in Romans ? Is that what is happening though ? The Free Will Process as you call it might not be as Free as you think it is considering GOD has chosen his elect whom he will Save with Jesus according to some scriptures in the Bible. Romans 8:29 for example.”

I can know, due to the overall context of the Bible, as it pertains to the nature and character of God (e.g. His goal is to save, but He will also punish disobedience and sin; while, on the other hand, Satan is actively seeking who he can steal, kill, and destroy, while God is seeking to provide life more abundantly). As a whole, God allows a person's free will to guide their path, while God is always their providing subtle, but noticeable cues to everyone of what the right choice should be. Why would whosoever need to take a different meaning than what it is said to mean? Prior to that, it says that God so loved the world, meaning a general and all encompassing love of the world. Essentially, in order for John 3:16 to be nullified, it would mean that a contrite person who accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior would be rigged to some day lose his salvation, where other verses, such as the one that says that nothing can separate someone from the love of God, would need to be contradicted; essentially, it would have to mean that God is tempting someone such that they can be lead to their destruction, which is the character of Satan; it would basically mean that Jesus's redemption is imperfect.

The stray examples that people rely on can always be explained away by looking to the intended context; basically, God's interaction with Cain set His nature in stone, as, there are verses available that shows that God responds favorably to contrition and those who diligently seek Him. There are like about 3 other verses that I could cite in response to Romans 8 that would show that God is looking to save as many people as He can; again, God has only usually been known to rigged the process to a person's success or favor for their salvation.

In this sense, you're asking a rhetorical question where, on the other-hand, you're also implying that God is actively trying to work against or avoid saving others, even in the face of John 3:16. Again, having a foreknowledge of who will be saved has no impact on someone who has decided to exercised their free will to be saved (e.g. at this point, what you're trying to make a case for is God wanting to avoid or prevent others from being saved, despite their better effort, and even if it involves them abiding by John 3:16, such that God contradicts what He says, when He said that what He wants to happen so as to resemble something that is more in the character of Satan, as, this would be a person who started to diligently pursue God with contrition, usually seeking atonement; that would be an individual that God would welcome, not an individual who He'd consider somehow beyond redemption; again, it's the overall context of God's nature in the Bible, not a stray verse here and there that appears to say something different, when you can look at the context).

Looking into the overall context of Romans 8 shows that it isn't trying to make the point that some people are predestined so as to fall in contradiction to John 3:16, while there is an elect group of people; Romans 8:1: There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. In order to become apart of Christ, you would have to first abide by John 3:16, as your only pathway (e.g. Jesus says that I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but by Me).

Romans 8, in context, is really trying describe by illustration the previous state of flesh before Jesus did His work, versus the state of the Spirit, after He completed His work. The context isn't intended to be discussing a person's predestination, per se, particularly, not in the context of our exchange, as well as within the context of your prior exchanges about this topic. Basically, it's saying as I said before, once you become a genuine Christian, the Holy Spirit will become your Guide, as to the right thing to do, where we're no longer bound by the Law from the Old Testament. Grieving the Holy Spirit, in tern, leads to ones chastisement, a sign that God considers you His

“Numbers 11 : 1 - 2 "And when the people complained, it displeased the LORD, and the LORD heard it and his anger was kindled, and the Fire of the LORD burnt among them and consumed them that was in the uttermost parts of the Camp. And the People prayed to Moses, and when Moses prayed unto the LORD the fire was quenched".

Now you see it here that GOD killed people with Fire because they was complaining about the Food. Not because of some prolonged time of doing Evil. The Israelites complained, GOD got Mad and he burned some of the up. No slow to Anger here.”

But, this was a prolonged process of complaining, even after God had provided for the people. As you seem to be implying, God didn't become angry at the first sign of a complaint or as a reaction to the first moment of a complaint. Later in the Chapter, God took a number of extraordinary measures designed to address the people, even though their continued complaining further upset Him. The people had food to eat, but they were complaining about not getting some preferred food that they'd previously received.

“Now lets talk about David and the Census again. The passage in particular 1 Chronicles 21 never says that the Israelites did something wrong, it only says that David's Sin caused Israel to be punished. Now if GOD is slow to anger, Why is GOD punishing Israel right after David did something wrong ? Why is GOD punishing so many for the Sin of one man if GOD is slow to Anger ?”

The full context and description of the incident is not provided; thus, I can't answer such specific questions about the incident, except to say that Satan was involved, as 1 Chronicles 21:1-4: And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel. 2 And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan; and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it.

3 And Joab answered, The Lord make his people an hundred times so many more as they be: but, my lord the king, are they not all my lord's servants? why then doth my lord require this thing? why will he be a cause of trespass to Israel? 4 Nevertheless the king's word prevailed against Joab. Wherefore Joab departed, and went throughout all Israel, and came to Jerusalem.

From the context of this Scripture, it appears that David was more intent on obeying Satan than he was for obeying God. The context of this verse can also imply that the people were in fact doing something evil, as the only possibility, if they were considered being under the influence of Satan, which probably includes his demons. This is basically saying that they fell under the temptation of Satan and started to live in sin in some way. Thus, God brought about judgment upon them in order to bring them back into the path of righteousness. This is the general order of things, as people, including, and especially, genuine Christians are constantly being tempted by the Devil and his demons to sin against God; thus, in some way, they were all sinning against God; the taking of the census was just involved in the process in some way (e.g. it's like saying that someone wore a condom, but leaving out that they were also fornicating or committing adultery; the condom seems innocent enough, but, it's not the whole story and context all by itself). By the same token, they were not innocent; it's just that the responsibility to stop them fell upon David, as Joab tried to advise David unsuccessfully; he was the leader and the King of Israel, at the time, so, that was also factor; God still had use of David, is also part of why things went the way they did.

“Your analogy about the Supervisor does not work. GOD's Foreknowledge is not as limited as a Supervisor knowing about an Employee. The Bible has multiple passages about GOD knowing all things and knowing things before they come to past. There is no Satan's Plan vs GOD's Plan, it's all GOD's Plan.”

If you were following along properly, it should have worked (e.g. my analogy was that the supervisor is trying to rig the process so that successful people ultimately end up losing out, in the spirit of favoritism, a device or plan in the spirit of Satan, while God is trying to rig the process so that the unsuccessful should succeed; the only other possibility would be to say that God is actually trying to rig Christians for failure or trying to prevent people from becoming Christian so as to keep them set for eternal damnation, which is clearly contrary to what the Bible demonstrates God's character to be, in His desire that none should perish but have everlasting life).

To the contrary, there is a Satan Plan versus God's Plan (e.g. Satan seeks to steal, kill, and destroy versus God wanting everyone to have life and have it more abundantly). However, God controls so as to place limitations on the destruction that Satan is allowed to cause; this is so that free will can fairly play out.

1. The overall context of the Bible does not give a Nature of GOD that is solely bent on Saving Humans though or one that is always bent towards Saving Humans. You see it time and time again in the Bible, GOD immediately punished Adam and Eve in Genesis after they disobeyed him and did GOD give Adam and Eve any redemption after they Sinned ? I already gave you multiple passages in Numbers on how GOD killed off Israelites because of their complaining. John 3:16 is not nullified by Romans 8:29, it's put into perspective. If GOD foreknows who he will save in the Earth then the "Whosoever" is an Elect Group whom GOD knows he will save. As far as this making Jesus salvation imperfect. It's already that any way you look at it, because if GOD desires all to be saved but only some are saved then GOD is not able to accomplish his own will which seems bizarre for someone who is supposedly Omnipotent.

2. The passage does not say it was Prolonged Complaining in Numbers 11. In fact, it says where GOD heard them complaining, his anger rose up and he sent Fire to burn up the Israelites. The same is true for Numbers 21, the Israelites complained and right after GOD sent Serpents to bite them. There was no slow to anger for GOD in these instances.

3. But GOD is in control of Satan. Satan has no power other than what GOD allows him. Also, if it's David intent on obeying Satan then why is GOD immediately punishing Israel by killing 70,000 People if David is the one doing the Sin ? That has been the issue.

4. No, you missed it. GOD's Foreknowledge is a product of his Power and Attributes, he knowing all things to come to be means he sees all that will happen before it does. The Supervisor who is actively playing a role to weed out possible employees is someone trying to rid a process themselves, where as GOD supposedly sees things before it happens. In other words, GOD's knowledge is not GOD actively trying to stop people from being Christians it's just he knows who will be.

5. Satan's Plan works inside of GOD's Plan but is not separate plan as it is GOD whom created Satan and knows who he would be and what he does. It would almost be like saying Tallahassee is separate from Florida or Dallas from Texas.

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dshipp17

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#28087  Edited By dshipp17

@king_saturn said:
@dshipp17 said:

“How can it not be the Nature of GOD when the Bible says that GOD foreknows who he will fashion like unto Jesus Christ in Romans 8 ? The Bible is wrong about this ? How do you know that the "Whosoever" in John 3:16 is not speaking of those GOD's foreknows already whom he will save as stated in Romans ? Is that what is happening though ? The Free Will Process as you call it might not be as Free as you think it is considering GOD has chosen his elect whom he will Save with Jesus according to some scriptures in the Bible. Romans 8:29 for example.”

I can know, due to the overall context of the Bible, as it pertains to the nature and character of God (e.g. His goal is to save, but He will also punish disobedience and sin; while, on the other hand, Satan is actively seeking who he can steal, kill, and destroy, while God is seeking to provide life more abundantly). As a whole, God allows a person's free will to guide their path, while God is always their providing subtle, but noticeable cues to everyone of what the right choice should be. Why would whosoever need to take a different meaning than what it is said to mean? Prior to that, it says that God so loved the world, meaning a general and all encompassing love of the world. Essentially, in order for John 3:16 to be nullified, it would mean that a contrite person who accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior would be rigged to some day lose his salvation, where other verses, such as the one that says that nothing can separate someone from the love of God, would need to be contradicted; essentially, it would have to mean that God is tempting someone such that they can be lead to their destruction, which is the character of Satan; it would basically mean that Jesus's redemption is imperfect.

The stray examples that people rely on can always be explained away by looking to the intended context; basically, God's interaction with Cain set His nature in stone, as, there are verses available that shows that God responds favorably to contrition and those who diligently seek Him. There are like about 3 other verses that I could cite in response to Romans 8 that would show that God is looking to save as many people as He can; again, God has only usually been known to rigged the process to a person's success or favor for their salvation.

In this sense, you're asking a rhetorical question where, on the other-hand, you're also implying that God is actively trying to work against or avoid saving others, even in the face of John 3:16. Again, having a foreknowledge of who will be saved has no impact on someone who has decided to exercised their free will to be saved (e.g. at this point, what you're trying to make a case for is God wanting to avoid or prevent others from being saved, despite their better effort, and even if it involves them abiding by John 3:16, such that God contradicts what He says, when He said that what He wants to happen so as to resemble something that is more in the character of Satan, as, this would be a person who started to diligently pursue God with contrition, usually seeking atonement; that would be an individual that God would welcome, not an individual who He'd consider somehow beyond redemption; again, it's the overall context of God's nature in the Bible, not a stray verse here and there that appears to say something different, when you can look at the context).

Looking into the overall context of Romans 8 shows that it isn't trying to make the point that some people are predestined so as to fall in contradiction to John 3:16, while there is an elect group of people; Romans 8:1: There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. In order to become apart of Christ, you would have to first abide by John 3:16, as your only pathway (e.g. Jesus says that I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but by Me).

Romans 8, in context, is really trying describe by illustration the previous state of flesh before Jesus did His work, versus the state of the Spirit, after He completed His work. The context isn't intended to be discussing a person's predestination, per se, particularly, not in the context of our exchange, as well as within the context of your prior exchanges about this topic. Basically, it's saying as I said before, once you become a genuine Christian, the Holy Spirit will become your Guide, as to the right thing to do, where we're no longer bound by the Law from the Old Testament. Grieving the Holy Spirit, in tern, leads to ones chastisement, a sign that God considers you His

“Numbers 11 : 1 - 2 "And when the people complained, it displeased the LORD, and the LORD heard it and his anger was kindled, and the Fire of the LORD burnt among them and consumed them that was in the uttermost parts of the Camp. And the People prayed to Moses, and when Moses prayed unto the LORD the fire was quenched".

Now you see it here that GOD killed people with Fire because they was complaining about the Food. Not because of some prolonged time of doing Evil. The Israelites complained, GOD got Mad and he burned some of the up. No slow to Anger here.”

But, this was a prolonged process of complaining, even after God had provided for the people. As you seem to be implying, God didn't become angry at the first sign of a complaint or as a reaction to the first moment of a complaint. Later in the Chapter, God took a number of extraordinary measures designed to address the people, even though their continued complaining further upset Him. The people had food to eat, but they were complaining about not getting some preferred food that they'd previously received.

“Now lets talk about David and the Census again. The passage in particular 1 Chronicles 21 never says that the Israelites did something wrong, it only says that David's Sin caused Israel to be punished. Now if GOD is slow to anger, Why is GOD punishing Israel right after David did something wrong ? Why is GOD punishing so many for the Sin of one man if GOD is slow to Anger ?”

The full context and description of the incident is not provided; thus, I can't answer such specific questions about the incident, except to say that Satan was involved, as 1 Chronicles 21:1-4: And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel. 2 And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan; and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it.

3 And Joab answered, The Lord make his people an hundred times so many more as they be: but, my lord the king, are they not all my lord's servants? why then doth my lord require this thing? why will he be a cause of trespass to Israel? 4 Nevertheless the king's word prevailed against Joab. Wherefore Joab departed, and went throughout all Israel, and came to Jerusalem.

From the context of this Scripture, it appears that David was more intent on obeying Satan than he was for obeying God. The context of this verse can also imply that the people were in fact doing something evil, as the only possibility, if they were considered being under the influence of Satan, which probably includes his demons. This is basically saying that they fell under the temptation of Satan and started to live in sin in some way. Thus, God brought about judgment upon them in order to bring them back into the path of righteousness. This is the general order of things, as people, including, and especially, genuine Christians are constantly being tempted by the Devil and his demons to sin against God; thus, in some way, they were all sinning against God; the taking of the census was just involved in the process in some way (e.g. it's like saying that someone wore a condom, but leaving out that they were also fornicating or committing adultery; the condom seems innocent enough, but, it's not the whole story and context all by itself). By the same token, they were not innocent; it's just that the responsibility to stop them fell upon David, as Joab tried to advise David unsuccessfully; he was the leader and the King of Israel, at the time, so, that was also factor; God still had use of David, is also part of why things went the way they did.

“Your analogy about the Supervisor does not work. GOD's Foreknowledge is not as limited as a Supervisor knowing about an Employee. The Bible has multiple passages about GOD knowing all things and knowing things before they come to past. There is no Satan's Plan vs GOD's Plan, it's all GOD's Plan.”

If you were following along properly, it should have worked (e.g. my analogy was that the supervisor is trying to rig the process so that successful people ultimately end up losing out, in the spirit of favoritism, a device or plan in the spirit of Satan, while God is trying to rig the process so that the unsuccessful should succeed; the only other possibility would be to say that God is actually trying to rig Christians for failure or trying to prevent people from becoming Christian so as to keep them set for eternal damnation, which is clearly contrary to what the Bible demonstrates God's character to be, in His desire that none should perish but have everlasting life).

To the contrary, there is a Satan Plan versus God's Plan (e.g. Satan seeks to steal, kill, and destroy versus God wanting everyone to have life and have it more abundantly). However, God controls so as to place limitations on the destruction that Satan is allowed to cause; this is so that free will can fairly play out.

1. The overall context of the Bible does not give a Nature of GOD that is solely bent on Saving Humans though or one that is always bent towards Saving Humans. You see it time and time again in the Bible, GOD immediately punished Adam and Eve in Genesis after they disobeyed him and did GOD give Adam and Eve any redemption after they Sinned ? I already gave you multiple passages in Numbers on how GOD killed off Israelites because of their complaining. John 3:16 is not nullified by Romans 8:29, it's put into perspective. If GOD foreknows who he will save in the Earth then the "Whosoever" is an Elect Group whom GOD knows he will save. As far as this making Jesus salvation imperfect. It's already that any way you look at it, because if GOD desires all to be saved but only some are saved then GOD is not able to accomplish his own will which seems bizarre for someone who is supposedly Omnipotent.

2. The passage does not say it was Prolonged Complaining in Numbers 11. In fact, it says where GOD heard them complaining, his anger rose up and he sent Fire to burn up the Israelites. The same is true for Numbers 21, the Israelites complained and right after GOD sent Serpents to bite them. There was no slow to anger for GOD in these instances.

3. But GOD is in control of Satan. Satan has no power other than what GOD allows him. Also, if it's David intent on obeying Satan then why is GOD immediately punishing Israel by killing 70,000 People if David is the one doing the Sin ? That has been the issue.

4. No, you missed it. GOD's Foreknowledge is a product of his Power and Attributes, he knowing all things to come to be means he sees all that will happen before it does. The Supervisor who is actively playing a role to weed out possible employees is someone trying to rid a process themselves, where as GOD supposedly sees things before it happens. In other words, GOD's knowledge is not GOD actively trying to stop people from being Christians it's just he knows who will be.

5. Satan's Plan works inside of GOD's Plan but is not separate plan as it is GOD whom created Satan and knows who he would be and what he does. It would almost be like saying Tallahassee is separate from Florida or Dallas from Texas.

“The overall context of the Bible does not give a Nature of GOD that is solely bent on Saving Humans though or one that is always bent towards Saving Humans. You see it time and time again in the Bible, GOD immediately punished Adam and Eve in Genesis after they disobeyed him and did GOD give Adam and Eve any redemption after they Sinned ? I already gave you multiple passages in Numbers on how GOD killed off Israelites because of their complaining. John 3:16 is not nullified by Romans 8:29, it's put into perspective. If GOD foreknows who he will save in the Earth then the "Whosoever" is an Elect Group whom GOD knows he will save. As far as this making Jesus salvation imperfect. It's already that any way you look at it, because if GOD desires all to be saved but only some are saved then GOD is not able to accomplish his own will which seems bizarre for someone who is supposedly Omnipotent.”

God gave Adam and Eve another chance by redefining death such that they, along with the rest of humanity, didn't immediately perish. Thus, God's priority was life more abundantly, but also punishing for disobedience in this example, as actually a perfect example of just what I said was God's character. Also, in this scenario, it is Satan who is trying to have Adam and Eve killed and destroyed, while stealing the place of humanity, in the event that they no longer existed, as God's only other option. Except, you seem bent on passing Satan's misdeeds, actions, and responsibilities to God, which is the opposite of what most emerging interpretations of God becomes, with the most basic understanding of the view held about Christianity from even a child who is at the youngest level of understanding, while disregarding Satan as a factor altogether, while, otherwise, the discussion is also about free will (e.g. almost like trying to convince a child that the Care-A-Bears or Strawberry Shortcake are actually the villains of their shows; or that Megatron is actually the protagonist in Transformers); Satan is obviously there as a factor, but, you always want to treat him as non-interventionist as something like a plant or rock that is just present; you're playing gymnastics to somehow get people to disbelieve the clear and obvious.

The thing that made it fair was God both provided a warning and was otherwise readily available to Adam and Eve as a resource, should something out of the ordinary have occurred; and, the Serpent, deciding to interact with them to lead them into doing something contrary to God's warning, while completely and fully trusting the Serpent that they wouldn't experience the outcome that God warned of, was certainly out of the ordinary; they should have known that God's motives were for their good, while they had no reason whatsoever to have trust in the Serpent; but, it was left as a free will choice for Adam and Eve as to what they would do in response, just setting the stage for free will choices going forward (e.g. are you going to do what God says or tells you to do or are you going to do something else, entirely?).

Romans 8:29 doesn't put John 3:16 into such a perspective that says that only a preordained elect will be saved, particularly, as that interpretation isn't the overall context of the Scripture which is describing a new state of existence for someone, after they have been directed to John 3:16 and then chooses to follow it; it could only be reduced to that interpretation if someone could be redeemed of their sins by Jesus, while being lead and guided by the Holy Spirit, but could still be living in a state that was the Old Testament, which this passage is explicitly trying to teach that you would be released from, provided you made a free will choice to follow John 3:16 (e.g. you always try to hark back to the Old Testament to try and make a point that is contrary to the teaching of what's understood by mainstream Christianity and what is pretty explicitly trying to be conveyed by Jesus, while Paul is trying to fill in more details on behalf of Jesus). It would essentially leave an interpretation that Jesus isn't actually acting as an intercessor on a person's behalf, along with many other things that would contradict a number of promises that the New Testament tries to convey.

“The passage does not say it was Prolonged Complaining in Numbers 11. In fact, it says where GOD heard them complaining, his anger rose up and he sent Fire to burn up the Israelites. The same is true for Numbers 21, the Israelites complained and right after GOD sent Serpents to bite them. There was no slow to anger for GOD in these instances.”

You can and should look at this in a manner similar to when it said that God heard the cries of the Jews, while under the bondage of the Egyptians, heard their cries, remembered His promise to Jacob, and, then, freed them. During this exchanged or period of time, it says that the Egyptians forgot or disregarded the works of Joseph, at some point during 430 years. And, then, the latest Pharaoh took advice from his consular and proceeded to increase the hardship on the Jews and to go after the first born boys. During this time, Moses also had time to be born and to grow up. Thus, a prolonged period of activity that resulted in the cries of the Jews transpired, even though it seems to suggest that God suddenly noticed their cries. And, then, as with the census, it's a matter of the complaining itself and what actually made it malicious, even though it sounds innocent enough; some details are lacking, so, your faith has to be that God had good reason for His action, such that it's consistent with the understanding that God is against sin, as it is harmful to you; while, Satan, on the other hand, with the end goal of your destruction being on his mind, is constantly tempting God's flock to sin, then, the Jews, now, the Christians, and Jews who believe on Jesus.

“But GOD is in control of Satan. Satan has no power other than what GOD allows him. Also, if it's David intent on obeying Satan then why is GOD immediately punishing Israel by killing 70,000 People if David is the one doing the Sin ? That has been the issue.”

Now, this is totally wrong and blasphemous. God is not controlling Satan and guiding his actions. Satan is exercising his free will to be in rebellion against God. Overall, free will has to transpired for people, as well. Look to the story of Job. Satan requests, gets permission, but receives restrictions. But, as to what actually happens is totally in how Satan chooses to really take advantage of his mandate in order to the maximum allowed for a destruction. God then comes to restore and repair the damage. As to David, you were told that they were being tempted by Satan, also, so they were not innocent, at the time; additionally, a prolonged period of time transpired or the intensity of the sin became greatly concentrated in a short amount of time, but, some time did have to transpire, nonetheless (e.g. for someone to show contrition and ask for forgiveness).

“No, you missed it. GOD's Foreknowledge is a product of his Power and Attributes, he knowing all things to come to be means he sees all that will happen before it does. The Supervisor who is actively playing a role to weed out possible employees is someone trying to rid a process themselves, where as GOD supposedly sees things before it happens. In other words, GOD's knowledge is not GOD actively trying to stop people from being Christians it's just he knows who will be.”

No, you're missing what it is to be a Holy Trinity, again. God's will, although, this time, disusing the Son, Jesus, is for us to have life and have it more abundantly. Thus, Jesus's intentions are fused with God's foreknowledge. But, various places in the Old Testament show God explaining that He doesn't want a person's end result to be for them to perish. His mission is to teach a lesson that sins, especially without contrition, will have consequences.

No, as I said with comparing God to the supervisor, God is trying to bringing as many people as is possible, but, a supervisor, acting on a Satanic ideal, is trying to weed out. The problem is the perception of reality has been so interfered with by Satan and his demons operating in the largest amount of people, that you and most people can't see past the distortion of reality; you're thinking in terms of how Satan perceives things or wills things. God actually works from the bottom up, but Satan flipped it such, that human's view is such that prosperity comes from the top down.

Economic or government help, in God's design, should go from the bottom up, and things should be designed such that the poorest, most vulnerable, and the homeless receive the weight of a government behalf them in the form of monetary and economic help; instead, the weight of the government is to collude with big business to create things like systemic racism and to deny access to the courts for the most vulnerable, and to leave applicants with the least recourse in the employment process. Thus, Satan, being the god of this world, you see the rich and powerful proposer the most, but, in Heaven the least will become the greatest, and this upside down design is leading most to Hell, generally, starting with the most well off and prosperous among those (e.g. supervisors, managers, and attorneys generally have some of the nastiest outlooks towards others and life, as compared to even the general outlook towards people of the general population in a prison; in my experience, some of the most pleasant personalities and individuals that God protected me with, when I was just out of college, but, at my weakest and most trusting, were people who were just released from prison; I was left with a pleasant and trusting disposition about myself and how I viewed things, which compiled to a personality that I already had or what was already by personal character; but, this also as a very young man; maybe not so advisable for young women, but, the thought still applies, just probably not involving people who've just been released from prison; but, after living through supervisors, managers, and attorneys, I'm left at the most stoic, apathetic, and least trusting I've ever been, as it's necessary to operate with this group of people, where, now, they're most necessary in my life, in order that I can manage myself from my lowest economic state that they left in, largely by taking advantage of my trusting nature to get past my defenses, before that pathway was closed; but, at the same time, God keeps me good and God-ward leaning). God's wisdom is sound, once you understand His lessons as a genuine Christian, as judged by Him, working on your behalf.

Of course, in line with the point that I made, God is always drawing people towards Christianity, not trying to draw then away and act non-interventionist about something so important to people.

“Satan's Plan works inside of GOD's Plan but is not separate plan as it is GOD whom created Satan and knows who he would be and what he does. It would almost be like saying Tallahassee is separate from Florida or Dallas from Texas.”

Not, at all; this is just your confused and misunderstanding of things speaking that is being derived from your distorting of things; for one, as I previously said, the Bible clearly teaches that Satan seeks to steal, kill, and to destroy, but God provides life and provides it most abundantly. Thus, being diametrically opposed and the opposite, there is just no way to blend them together. Free will is the third player, while God is the choice for you, but Satan represents the choices other than the ones that God wills for you or tells you.

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#28088  Edited By SpareHeadOne

@dshipp17:

🎶 Do you see?

Do you see?

All the people sinking down?

Don't you care?

Don't you care?

Are you gonna let them drown?

How can you be so numb?!

Not to care if they come

You close your eyes,

And pretend the job is done

"oh, bless me, lord!

Bless me, lord!"

You know, it's all I ever hear!

No one aches,

No one hurts,

No one even sheds one tear

But, he cries,

He weeps,

He bleeds,

And he cares for your needs

And you just lay back,

And keep soaking it in

Oh, can't you see such sin?!

'cause he brings people to your door,

And you turn them away

As you smile and say,

"god bless you!

Be at peace!"

And all heaven just weep,

'cause Jesus came to your door,

You left him out on the streets

Open up! open up!

And give yourself away

You see the need,

You hear the cries,

So how can you delay?!

God is calling,

And you are the one

But like Jonah, you run

He told you to speak,

But you keep holding it in

Oh, can't you see such sin?!

The world is sleeping in the dark,

That the church just can't fight,

'cause it's asleep in the light!

How can you be so dead?!

When you've been so well fed

Jesus rose from the grave,

And you!

You can't even get out of bed!

Oh, Jesus rose from the dead!

Come on, get out of your bed!

How can you be so numb?!

Not to care if they come

You close your eyes,

And pretend the job is done!

You close your eyes,

And pretend the job is done!

Don't close your eyes,

Don't pretend the job is done

Come away! come away!

Come away with me, my love!

Come away from this mess,

Come away with me, my love!

Come away from this mess!

Come away with me, my love!

Come away,

Come away with me my love! 🎶

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@dshipp17 said:

“The overall context of the Bible does not give a Nature of GOD that is solely bent on Saving Humans though or one that is always bent towards Saving Humans. You see it time and time again in the Bible, GOD immediately punished Adam and Eve in Genesis after they disobeyed him and did GOD give Adam and Eve any redemption after they Sinned ? I already gave you multiple passages in Numbers on how GOD killed off Israelites because of their complaining. John 3:16 is not nullified by Romans 8:29, it's put into perspective. If GOD foreknows who he will save in the Earth then the "Whosoever" is an Elect Group whom GOD knows he will save. As far as this making Jesus salvation imperfect. It's already that any way you look at it, because if GOD desires all to be saved but only some are saved then GOD is not able to accomplish his own will which seems bizarre for someone who is supposedly Omnipotent.”

God gave Adam and Eve another chance by redefining death such that they, along with the rest of humanity, didn't immediately perish. Thus, God's priority was life more abundantly, but also punishing for disobedience in this example, as actually a perfect example of just what I said was God's character. Also, in this scenario, it is Satan who is trying to have Adam and Eve killed and destroyed, while stealing the place of humanity, in the event that they no longer existed, as God's only other option. Except, you seem bent on passing Satan's misdeeds, actions, and responsibilities to God, which is the opposite of what most emerging interpretations of God becomes, with the most basic understanding of the view held about Christianity from even a child who is at the youngest level of understanding, while disregarding Satan as a factor altogether, while, otherwise, the discussion is also about free will (e.g. almost like trying to convince a child that the Care-A-Bears or Strawberry Shortcake are actually the villains of their shows; or that Megatron is actually the protagonist in Transformers); Satan is obviously there as a factor, but, you always want to treat him as non-interventionist as something like a plant or rock that is just present; you're playing gymnastics to somehow get people to disbelieve the clear and obvious.

The thing that made it fair was God both provided a warning and was otherwise readily available to Adam and Eve as a resource, should something out of the ordinary have occurred; and, the Serpent, deciding to interact with them to lead them into doing something contrary to God's warning, while completely and fully trusting the Serpent that they wouldn't experience the outcome that God warned of, was certainly out of the ordinary; they should have known that God's motives were for their good, while they had no reason whatsoever to have trust in the Serpent; but, it was left as a free will choice for Adam and Eve as to what they would do in response, just setting the stage for free will choices going forward (e.g. are you going to do what God says or tells you to do or are you going to do something else, entirely?).

Romans 8:29 doesn't put John 3:16 into such a perspective that says that only a preordained elect will be saved, particularly, as that interpretation isn't the overall context of the Scripture which is describing a new state of existence for someone, after they have been directed to John 3:16 and then chooses to follow it; it could only be reduced to that interpretation if someone could be redeemed of their sins by Jesus, while being lead and guided by the Holy Spirit, but could still be living in a state that was the Old Testament, which this passage is explicitly trying to teach that you would be released from, provided you made a free will choice to follow John 3:16 (e.g. you always try to hark back to the Old Testament to try and make a point that is contrary to the teaching of what's understood by mainstream Christianity and what is pretty explicitly trying to be conveyed by Jesus, while Paul is trying to fill in more details on behalf of Jesus). It would essentially leave an interpretation that Jesus isn't actually acting as an intercessor on a person's behalf, along with many other things that would contradict a number of promises that the New Testament tries to convey.

“The passage does not say it was Prolonged Complaining in Numbers 11. In fact, it says where GOD heard them complaining, his anger rose up and he sent Fire to burn up the Israelites. The same is true for Numbers 21, the Israelites complained and right after GOD sent Serpents to bite them. There was no slow to anger for GOD in these instances.”

You can and should look at this in a manner similar to when it said that God heard the cries of the Jews, while under the bondage of the Egyptians, heard their cries, remembered His promise to Jacob, and, then, freed them. During this exchanged or period of time, it says that the Egyptians forgot or disregarded the works of Joseph, at some point during 430 years. And, then, the latest Pharaoh took advice from his consular and proceeded to increase the hardship on the Jews and to go after the first born boys. During this time, Moses also had time to be born and to grow up. Thus, a prolonged period of activity that resulted in the cries of the Jews transpired, even though it seems to suggest that God suddenly noticed their cries. And, then, as with the census, it's a matter of the complaining itself and what actually made it malicious, even though it sounds innocent enough; some details are lacking, so, your faith has to be that God had good reason for His action, such that it's consistent with the understanding that God is against sin, as it is harmful to you; while, Satan, on the other hand, with the end goal of your destruction being on his mind, is constantly tempting God's flock to sin, then, the Jews, now, the Christians, and Jews who believe on Jesus.

“But GOD is in control of Satan. Satan has no power other than what GOD allows him. Also, if it's David intent on obeying Satan then why is GOD immediately punishing Israel by killing 70,000 People if David is the one doing the Sin ? That has been the issue.”

Now, this is totally wrong and blasphemous. God is not controlling Satan and guiding his actions. Satan is exercising his free will to be in rebellion against God. Overall, free will has to transpired for people, as well. Look to the story of Job. Satan requests, gets permission, but receives restrictions. But, as to what actually happens is totally in how Satan chooses to really take advantage of his mandate in order to the maximum allowed for a destruction. God then comes to restore and repair the damage. As to David, you were told that they were being tempted by Satan, also, so they were not innocent, at the time; additionally, a prolonged period of time transpired or the intensity of the sin became greatly concentrated in a short amount of time, but, some time did have to transpire, nonetheless (e.g. for someone to show contrition and ask for forgiveness).

“No, you missed it. GOD's Foreknowledge is a product of his Power and Attributes, he knowing all things to come to be means he sees all that will happen before it does. The Supervisor who is actively playing a role to weed out possible employees is someone trying to rid a process themselves, where as GOD supposedly sees things before it happens. In other words, GOD's knowledge is not GOD actively trying to stop people from being Christians it's just he knows who will be.”

No, you're missing what it is to be a Holy Trinity, again. God's will, although, this time, disusing the Son, Jesus, is for us to have life and have it more abundantly. Thus, Jesus's intentions are fused with God's foreknowledge. But, various places in the Old Testament show God explaining that He doesn't want a person's end result to be for them to perish. His mission is to teach a lesson that sins, especially without contrition, will have consequences.

No, as I said with comparing God to the supervisor, God is trying to bringing as many people as is possible, but, a supervisor, acting on a Satanic ideal, is trying to weed out. The problem is the perception of reality has been so interfered with by Satan and his demons operating in the largest amount of people, that you and most people can't see past the distortion of reality; you're thinking in terms of how Satan perceives things or wills things. God actually works from the bottom up, but Satan flipped it such, that human's view is such that prosperity comes from the top down.

Economic or government help, in God's design, should go from the bottom up, and things should be designed such that the poorest, most vulnerable, and the homeless receive the weight of a government behalf them in the form of monetary and economic help; instead, the weight of the government is to collude with big business to create things like systemic racism and to deny access to the courts for the most vulnerable, and to leave applicants with the least recourse in the employment process. Thus, Satan, being the god of this world, you see the rich and powerful proposer the most, but, in Heaven the least will become the greatest, and this upside down design is leading most to Hell, generally, starting with the most well off and prosperous among those (e.g. supervisors, managers, and attorneys generally have some of the nastiest outlooks towards others and life, as compared to even the general outlook towards people of the general population in a prison; in my experience, some of the most pleasant personalities and individuals that God protected me with, when I was just out of college, but, at my weakest and most trusting, were people who were just released from prison; I was left with a pleasant and trusting disposition about myself and how I viewed things, which compiled to a personality that I already had or what was already by personal character; but, this also as a very young man; maybe not so advisable for young women, but, the thought still applies, just probably not involving people who've just been released from prison; but, after living through supervisors, managers, and attorneys, I'm left at the most stoic, apathetic, and least trusting I've ever been, as it's necessary to operate with this group of people, where, now, they're most necessary in my life, in order that I can manage myself from my lowest economic state that they left in, largely by taking advantage of my trusting nature to get past my defenses, before that pathway was closed; but, at the same time, God keeps me good and God-ward leaning). God's wisdom is sound, once you understand His lessons as a genuine Christian, as judged by Him, working on your behalf.

Of course, in line with the point that I made, God is always drawing people towards Christianity, not trying to draw then away and act non-interventionist about something so important to people.

“Satan's Plan works inside of GOD's Plan but is not separate plan as it is GOD whom created Satan and knows who he would be and what he does. It would almost be like saying Tallahassee is separate from Florida or Dallas from Texas.”

Not, at all; this is just your confused and misunderstanding of things speaking that is being derived from your distorting of things; for one, as I previously said, the Bible clearly teaches that Satan seeks to steal, kill, and to destroy, but God provides life and provides it most abundantly. Thus, being diametrically opposed and the opposite, there is just no way to blend them together. Free will is the third player, while God is the choice for you, but Satan represents the choices other than the ones that God wills for you or tells you.

1. You are making that up. Genesis never says that GOD gave Adam and Eve another chance by not having them and Humanity immediately perish. Genesis does however say that GOD punished Adam and Eve right after they had disobeyed him. GOD cursed Adam and Eve and GOD even cursed the Ground because he was so pissed about what Adam and Eve had done. Adam and Eve had no chance for redemption as in the story we see GOD kicking Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden and taking away their right to eat from The Tree of Life. Satan is an entity that is basically having his power controlled by GOD. Yes, Satan does bad things but because GOD is Omnipotent and Omniscient, that which Satan does was already known by GOD even before he created him as Lucifer.

2. Speaking on Romans 8:29, this is easy. If GOD knows everything, why the heck would he not know who will be Saved and who will not be Saved ? You, could at best say that GOD is not causing whosoever to be Saved but GOD already knows who will be Saved. This is the basis for his Omniscience. GOD already knows what will be.

3. What the heck does the Jews being in bondage in Egypt for 430 years have to do with what is happening in Numbers 11 or Numbers 21 ? Those passages are clear. The Jews complained, GOD got mad and GOD killed several Israelites by plague or fire. There was no prolonged time between GOD's anger with the Israelites and his timing of punishment. It damn sure was not no 430 years. We know GOD's reason for his action. It's stated in 1 Chronicles 21:7 when the passage clearly says that the command ( David's command ) disgusted the LORD so he punished Israel. GOD punished Israel for the sin that David had committed. There is no mystery here.

4. I can't believe this. You literally used the same story to prove my point that GOD is in control of Satan. In the story of Job, Satan had to get permission from GOD to even use his Power to attack Job. Hence, proving the point that GOD is in control of Satan. Satan can do nothing unless GOD allows him to. That's the case for essentially any of us.

5. If GOD the Father, Yahweh is Omniscient. If Yahweh knows All Things. Then what in the heck could be hidden or not known unto him ? How does the Holy Trinity even figure unto this if The Father is Omniscient ? Are you saying that GOD does not know all things ? Even if you say Jesus does not know all things, does not the Father know all things ?

I have not flipped anything. I have stated time and time again that GOD is Omniscient knowing all things and because GOD knows all things and things before they happen. GOD would know who would be saved and who will not be saved. Now you can say that GOD is trying to fix reality so that everyone has a chance to be saved, but if that is the case then why isn't everyone saved ? Why is it that The Almighty who Jesus said Nothing was Impossible for GOD can not find a way to save everyone where we would all Freely come to him and come to him knowing he is GOD ?

6. Yes, the Bible says that Satan seeks to Kill, Steal and Destroy. That changes nothing as Satan's will is tied to what GOD allows him to do. Satan's power comes from GOD and Satan can only do what will be allotted for him to do. In other words, Satan's plan exists inside of GOD's plan. Even if GOD and Satan have different natures.

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dshipp17

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#28090  Edited By dshipp17

@king_saturn said:
@dshipp17 said:

“The overall context of the Bible does not give a Nature of GOD that is solely bent on Saving Humans though or one that is always bent towards Saving Humans. You see it time and time again in the Bible, GOD immediately punished Adam and Eve in Genesis after they disobeyed him and did GOD give Adam and Eve any redemption after they Sinned ? I already gave you multiple passages in Numbers on how GOD killed off Israelites because of their complaining. John 3:16 is not nullified by Romans 8:29, it's put into perspective. If GOD foreknows who he will save in the Earth then the "Whosoever" is an Elect Group whom GOD knows he will save. As far as this making Jesus salvation imperfect. It's already that any way you look at it, because if GOD desires all to be saved but only some are saved then GOD is not able to accomplish his own will which seems bizarre for someone who is supposedly Omnipotent.”

God gave Adam and Eve another chance by redefining death such that they, along with the rest of humanity, didn't immediately perish. Thus, God's priority was life more abundantly, but also punishing for disobedience in this example, as actually a perfect example of just what I said was God's character. Also, in this scenario, it is Satan who is trying to have Adam and Eve killed and destroyed, while stealing the place of humanity, in the event that they no longer existed, as God's only other option. Except, you seem bent on passing Satan's misdeeds, actions, and responsibilities to God, which is the opposite of what most emerging interpretations of God becomes, with the most basic understanding of the view held about Christianity from even a child who is at the youngest level of understanding, while disregarding Satan as a factor altogether, while, otherwise, the discussion is also about free will (e.g. almost like trying to convince a child that the Care-A-Bears or Strawberry Shortcake are actually the villains of their shows; or that Megatron is actually the protagonist in Transformers); Satan is obviously there as a factor, but, you always want to treat him as non-interventionist as something like a plant or rock that is just present; you're playing gymnastics to somehow get people to disbelieve the clear and obvious.

The thing that made it fair was God both provided a warning and was otherwise readily available to Adam and Eve as a resource, should something out of the ordinary have occurred; and, the Serpent, deciding to interact with them to lead them into doing something contrary to God's warning, while completely and fully trusting the Serpent that they wouldn't experience the outcome that God warned of, was certainly out of the ordinary; they should have known that God's motives were for their good, while they had no reason whatsoever to have trust in the Serpent; but, it was left as a free will choice for Adam and Eve as to what they would do in response, just setting the stage for free will choices going forward (e.g. are you going to do what God says or tells you to do or are you going to do something else, entirely?).

Romans 8:29 doesn't put John 3:16 into such a perspective that says that only a preordained elect will be saved, particularly, as that interpretation isn't the overall context of the Scripture which is describing a new state of existence for someone, after they have been directed to John 3:16 and then chooses to follow it; it could only be reduced to that interpretation if someone could be redeemed of their sins by Jesus, while being lead and guided by the Holy Spirit, but could still be living in a state that was the Old Testament, which this passage is explicitly trying to teach that you would be released from, provided you made a free will choice to follow John 3:16 (e.g. you always try to hark back to the Old Testament to try and make a point that is contrary to the teaching of what's understood by mainstream Christianity and what is pretty explicitly trying to be conveyed by Jesus, while Paul is trying to fill in more details on behalf of Jesus). It would essentially leave an interpretation that Jesus isn't actually acting as an intercessor on a person's behalf, along with many other things that would contradict a number of promises that the New Testament tries to convey.

“The passage does not say it was Prolonged Complaining in Numbers 11. In fact, it says where GOD heard them complaining, his anger rose up and he sent Fire to burn up the Israelites. The same is true for Numbers 21, the Israelites complained and right after GOD sent Serpents to bite them. There was no slow to anger for GOD in these instances.”

You can and should look at this in a manner similar to when it said that God heard the cries of the Jews, while under the bondage of the Egyptians, heard their cries, remembered His promise to Jacob, and, then, freed them. During this exchanged or period of time, it says that the Egyptians forgot or disregarded the works of Joseph, at some point during 430 years. And, then, the latest Pharaoh took advice from his consular and proceeded to increase the hardship on the Jews and to go after the first born boys. During this time, Moses also had time to be born and to grow up. Thus, a prolonged period of activity that resulted in the cries of the Jews transpired, even though it seems to suggest that God suddenly noticed their cries. And, then, as with the census, it's a matter of the complaining itself and what actually made it malicious, even though it sounds innocent enough; some details are lacking, so, your faith has to be that God had good reason for His action, such that it's consistent with the understanding that God is against sin, as it is harmful to you; while, Satan, on the other hand, with the end goal of your destruction being on his mind, is constantly tempting God's flock to sin, then, the Jews, now, the Christians, and Jews who believe on Jesus.

“But GOD is in control of Satan. Satan has no power other than what GOD allows him. Also, if it's David intent on obeying Satan then why is GOD immediately punishing Israel by killing 70,000 People if David is the one doing the Sin ? That has been the issue.”

Now, this is totally wrong and blasphemous. God is not controlling Satan and guiding his actions. Satan is exercising his free will to be in rebellion against God. Overall, free will has to transpired for people, as well. Look to the story of Job. Satan requests, gets permission, but receives restrictions. But, as to what actually happens is totally in how Satan chooses to really take advantage of his mandate in order to the maximum allowed for a destruction. God then comes to restore and repair the damage. As to David, you were told that they were being tempted by Satan, also, so they were not innocent, at the time; additionally, a prolonged period of time transpired or the intensity of the sin became greatly concentrated in a short amount of time, but, some time did have to transpire, nonetheless (e.g. for someone to show contrition and ask for forgiveness).

“No, you missed it. GOD's Foreknowledge is a product of his Power and Attributes, he knowing all things to come to be means he sees all that will happen before it does. The Supervisor who is actively playing a role to weed out possible employees is someone trying to rid a process themselves, where as GOD supposedly sees things before it happens. In other words, GOD's knowledge is not GOD actively trying to stop people from being Christians it's just he knows who will be.”

No, you're missing what it is to be a Holy Trinity, again. God's will, although, this time, disusing the Son, Jesus, is for us to have life and have it more abundantly. Thus, Jesus's intentions are fused with God's foreknowledge. But, various places in the Old Testament show God explaining that He doesn't want a person's end result to be for them to perish. His mission is to teach a lesson that sins, especially without contrition, will have consequences.

No, as I said with comparing God to the supervisor, God is trying to bringing as many people as is possible, but, a supervisor, acting on a Satanic ideal, is trying to weed out. The problem is the perception of reality has been so interfered with by Satan and his demons operating in the largest amount of people, that you and most people can't see past the distortion of reality; you're thinking in terms of how Satan perceives things or wills things. God actually works from the bottom up, but Satan flipped it such, that human's view is such that prosperity comes from the top down.

Economic or government help, in God's design, should go from the bottom up, and things should be designed such that the poorest, most vulnerable, and the homeless receive the weight of a government behalf them in the form of monetary and economic help; instead, the weight of the government is to collude with big business to create things like systemic racism and to deny access to the courts for the most vulnerable, and to leave applicants with the least recourse in the employment process. Thus, Satan, being the god of this world, you see the rich and powerful proposer the most, but, in Heaven the least will become the greatest, and this upside down design is leading most to Hell, generally, starting with the most well off and prosperous among those (e.g. supervisors, managers, and attorneys generally have some of the nastiest outlooks towards others and life, as compared to even the general outlook towards people of the general population in a prison; in my experience, some of the most pleasant personalities and individuals that God protected me with, when I was just out of college, but, at my weakest and most trusting, were people who were just released from prison; I was left with a pleasant and trusting disposition about myself and how I viewed things, which compiled to a personality that I already had or what was already by personal character; but, this also as a very young man; maybe not so advisable for young women, but, the thought still applies, just probably not involving people who've just been released from prison; but, after living through supervisors, managers, and attorneys, I'm left at the most stoic, apathetic, and least trusting I've ever been, as it's necessary to operate with this group of people, where, now, they're most necessary in my life, in order that I can manage myself from my lowest economic state that they left in, largely by taking advantage of my trusting nature to get past my defenses, before that pathway was closed; but, at the same time, God keeps me good and God-ward leaning). God's wisdom is sound, once you understand His lessons as a genuine Christian, as judged by Him, working on your behalf.

Of course, in line with the point that I made, God is always drawing people towards Christianity, not trying to draw then away and act non-interventionist about something so important to people.

“Satan's Plan works inside of GOD's Plan but is not separate plan as it is GOD whom created Satan and knows who he would be and what he does. It would almost be like saying Tallahassee is separate from Florida or Dallas from Texas.”

Not, at all; this is just your confused and misunderstanding of things speaking that is being derived from your distorting of things; for one, as I previously said, the Bible clearly teaches that Satan seeks to steal, kill, and to destroy, but God provides life and provides it most abundantly. Thus, being diametrically opposed and the opposite, there is just no way to blend them together. Free will is the third player, while God is the choice for you, but Satan represents the choices other than the ones that God wills for you or tells you.

1. You are making that up. Genesis never says that GOD gave Adam and Eve another chance by not having them and Humanity immediately perish. Genesis does however say that GOD punished Adam and Eve right after they had disobeyed him. GOD cursed Adam and Eve and GOD even cursed the Ground because he was so pissed about what Adam and Eve had done. Adam and Eve had no chance for redemption as in the story we see GOD kicking Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden and taking away their right to eat from The Tree of Life. Satan is an entity that is basically having his power controlled by GOD. Yes, Satan does bad things but because GOD is Omnipotent and Omniscient, that which Satan does was already known by GOD even before he created him as Lucifer.

2. Speaking on Romans 8:29, this is easy. If GOD knows everything, why the heck would he not know who will be Saved and who will not be Saved ? You, could at best say that GOD is not causing whosoever to be Saved but GOD already knows who will be Saved. This is the basis for his Omniscience. GOD already knows what will be.

3. What the heck does the Jews being in bondage in Egypt for 430 years have to do with what is happening in Numbers 11 or Numbers 21 ? Those passages are clear. The Jews complained, GOD got mad and GOD killed several Israelites by plague or fire. There was no prolonged time between GOD's anger with the Israelites and his timing of punishment. It damn sure was not no 430 years. We know GOD's reason for his action. It's stated in 1 Chronicles 21:7 when the passage clearly says that the command ( David's command ) disgusted the LORD so he punished Israel. GOD punished Israel for the sin that David had committed. There is no mystery here.

4. I can't believe this. You literally used the same story to prove my point that GOD is in control of Satan. In the story of Job, Satan had to get permission from GOD to even use his Power to attack Job. Hence, proving the point that GOD is in control of Satan. Satan can do nothing unless GOD allows him to. That's the case for essentially any of us.

5. If GOD the Father, Yahweh is Omniscient. If Yahweh knows All Things. Then what in the heck could be hidden or not known unto him ? How does the Holy Trinity even figure unto this if The Father is Omniscient ? Are you saying that GOD does not know all things ? Even if you say Jesus does not know all things, does not the Father know all things ?

I have not flipped anything. I have stated time and time again that GOD is Omniscient knowing all things and because GOD knows all things and things before they happen. GOD would know who would be saved and who will not be saved. Now you can say that GOD is trying to fix reality so that everyone has a chance to be saved, but if that is the case then why isn't everyone saved ? Why is it that The Almighty who Jesus said Nothing was Impossible for GOD can not find a way to save everyone where we would all Freely come to him and come to him knowing he is GOD ?

6. Yes, the Bible says that Satan seeks to Kill, Steal and Destroy. That changes nothing as Satan's will is tied to what GOD allows him to do. Satan's power comes from GOD and Satan can only do what will be allotted for him to do. In other words, Satan's plan exists inside of GOD's plan. Even if GOD and Satan have different natures.

“You are making that up. Genesis never says that GOD gave Adam and Eve another chance by not having them and Humanity immediately perish. Genesis does however say that GOD punished Adam and Eve right after they had disobeyed him. GOD cursed Adam and Eve and GOD even cursed the Ground because he was so pissed about what Adam and Eve had done. Adam and Eve had no chance for redemption as in the story we see GOD kicking Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden and taking away their right to eat from The Tree of Life. Satan is an entity that is basically having his power controlled by GOD. Yes, Satan does bad things but because GOD is Omnipotent and Omniscient, that which Satan does was already known by GOD even before he created him as Lucifer.”

That's not something made up at all; it's something that's pretty literal and apparent from the text; but, it is you who is trying to do gymnastics, in order to make God look like the antagonist, Adam and Eve look like clueless victims, and Satan as either a non-factor or even possibly the protagonist, when it's pretty literal that Satan is the one who introduced or caused the calamity in this situation.

God preventing humanity from having to perish is precisely and exactly how God gave them another chance and displayed mercy, after giving them a chance to explain the situation. First, as was previously explained, free will had to take place; Satan then entered into the picture in order to steal, kill, and destroy; God then provided life abundantly, but He also had to give the message that sin has negative consequences. If Satan wasn't acting within his nature and as the adversary, he could have appeared and started doing something helpful like directing Eve to the Tree of Life or going to Adam and explaining their surroundings, or anything of a benevolent nature; instead, he did something of a malevolent nature with the apparent goal of getting Adam and Eve to do the one and only thing out of place: to disobey God.

No, you can't just leap frog over a very important development: that God spared their lives, to then hark on the punishment, which had to occur; it wasn't the punishment but the thought that consequences is what immediately took place; in this scenario, there wasn't a place for God to give a second chance within the consequences; the second chance was settled by not allowing Adam, Eve, and humanity to just perish, as Satan had intended. God's punishment was intended to be stern rather than harsh.

They did indeed have a chance at redemption, as they were allowed to live, even though they should have died. They had the opportunity to redeem themselves within the punishment, similar to someone deciding to reform in a prison with their time. Adam and Eve couldn't be allowed to remain in a paradise, otherwise, what would be the consequences for their sin and disobedience? In another context, it would be something expected of a parent towards a child who disobeyed.

Well, to that point that you think you have made, just go to or consider someplace where Satan's power can go unchecked by God; that place is Hell; are you still considering Satan so fair now, seeing how the conditions are for the souls in Hell? Satan had been cast out of Heaven and was trying to steal humanity's place of prestige within the eyes of God; and, he succeeded, but, within limits that God meted out; Satan thought and intended, as I pointed out, for humanity to be destroyed. Since they weren't, that's one way that God's mercy prevailed, while, at the same time, He also meted out a punishment, to show that misbehavior has consequences.

God is obviously more serving to put contingencies in place to offset the destruction that Satan can cause; but, He isn't in control of Satan's actions and what Satan decides to do with his own power, as Satan exercises free will by making his choices as he sees fit. God provides freedom; you're suggesting that God should more actively control, only so that you can believe that you've made another point that is against mainstream Christian interpretation of Christianity and to buy into some of the nonsense that largely ignorant atheists purport to be making; and, in the face of clear clarification; you're not actually surviving or winning, you're just dragging on to appear to be making a point, by appearing not to be doing something that is simple and basic: that is, saving face, after the next bruising.

“Speaking on Romans 8:29, this is easy. If GOD knows everything, why the heck would he not know who will be Saved and who will not be Saved ? You, could at best say that GOD is not causing whosoever to be Saved but GOD already knows who will be Saved. This is the basis for his Omniscience. GOD already knows what will be.”

Well, again, this is a point that has been established to you time and again: how are you trying to construct a case that God knowing what will happen is going to then serve to hinder people from choosing to be saved according to John 3:16, presumably because they aren't among the elect? The Scripture is clear that it's whosoever decides to take the leap according to John 3:16 is immediately going to have Jesus and the Holy Spirit working on their behalf to then work to insure their salvation, where, through the Holy Trinity, they are also one with God; coupled with this, the Bible directs Christians to spread the Gospel throughout the world; thus, another clue that John 3:16 is intended to be all encompassing. Again, the third element at play is free will, beside God's plan, and Satan's rebellion against God to destroy as many people as he is able to destroy, as the real antagonist.

“What the heck does the Jews being in bondage in Egypt for 430 years have to do with what is happening in Numbers 11 or Numbers 21 ? Those passages are clear. The Jews complained, GOD got mad and GOD killed several Israelites by plague or fire. There was no prolonged time between GOD's anger with the Israelites and his timing of punishment. It damn sure was not no 430 years. We know GOD's reason for his action. It's stated in 1 Chronicles 21:7 when the passage clearly says that the command ( David's command ) disgusted the LORD so he punished Israel. GOD punished Israel for the sin that David had committed. There is no mystery here.”

Well, it was explained directly in my comment as an explanation to something that you said. The point was that there was some time before God acted in Numbers; that time was to allow for contrition, confession, and repentance; when it was clear that these elements were not going to take place, God meted out deserved punishment.

Head back to Exodus 16-17:7; there, it will explain the sin that the Jews were knowingly committing by complaining; they knew that it was a form of rebelling against God, as He considered it; thus, it's relative to Exodus 16-17:7, not moments after Numbers 11 and 21. And, then, coupled with my earlier point that, since the level of detail required to give an obvious response to your detailed question, you'd have to extract good intentions with God's judgment.

No, God punished both David and Israel for each of their own sins, as individuals, as opposed to a group, for the reasons previously explained to you, and now elaborated upon a bit more.

“I can't believe this. You literally used the same story to prove my point that GOD is in control of Satan. In the story of Job, Satan had to get permission from GOD to even use his Power to attack Job. Hence, proving the point that GOD is in control of Satan. Satan can do nothing unless GOD allows him to. That's the case for essentially any of us.”

No, this doesn't establish any point your way at all; Satan was responding to God, when Job had been established as being a rare exception, perhaps an only, exception, that God considered him righteous; in response to God's question, Satan also implied that he was just coming from having been seeking whom he could devour and presumably, from the way it was said, was successful on a mass front; thus, this establishes that Satan was acting on his own within limits imposed by God so that earth can be prevented from looking Hell, as a place where Satan's power is going unchecked by God.

As I said, God placed limits on Satan, Satan decided how he wanted to proceed within those limits, which was to cause calamity, and, afterward, God went out to repair and restore the damage. This didn't demonstrate that God was in control of Satan, at all, it demonstrated that God released a number of limitations from Satan, as something else Satan also said was that Job was prospering, due to God's hedge of protection around him. This shows that God will allow a test to come your way, as one of his flock, as a Christian, but not something beyond what you can bear (e.g. and where God is there to hear your prayer and respond to humility and contrition); however, Satan wants to destroy you, so that's going to be far beyond what you can bear, but for God's limitations on Satan; again, it's a demonstration that it is Satan, not God, who is controlling his actions; God just enters in, in order to place limitations on what Satan is allowed to do to you, especially, and particularly, as a Christian; sometimes, if the end result is death, it's also because the end result is also an eternity in Heaven and Paradise for that Christian, the ultimate gift and salvation from Jesus.

“ If GOD the Father, Yahweh is Omniscient. If Yahweh knows All Things. Then what in the heck could be hidden or not known unto him ? How does the Holy Trinity even figure unto this if The Father is Omniscient ? Are you saying that GOD does not know all things ? Even if you say Jesus does not know all things, does not the Father know all things ?”

No, but, rather, it establishes that once someone decides to follow John 3:16, that person is going to have Jesus and the Holy Spirit working on their behalf to ensure their salvation, where they are also one with God.

“I have not flipped anything. I have stated time and time again that GOD is Omniscient knowing all things and because GOD knows all things and things before they happen. GOD would know who would be saved and who will not be saved. Now you can say that GOD is trying to fix reality so that everyone has a chance to be saved, but if that is the case then why isn't everyone saved ? Why is it that The Almighty who Jesus said Nothing was Impossible for GOD can not find a way to save everyone where we would all Freely come to him and come to him knowing he is GOD ?”

You certainly did flip things, if you go back to what I was responding to, at the time; you took my example of the supervisor and hiring process to then suggest that it was how God actually operated, contrary to what I'd tried to illustrate with that example, even though my point was to illustrate that God was the opposite; you suggested that God is weeding people out from salvation in order that an elect few can meet a predestination that was established before creation; but, that's not what is going on; God is trying to bring as many people to their salvation as an individual's freewill will allow them to make a leap and abide by John 3:16 in order to gain their own salvation. Once the person decides, with contrition and faith, to come aboard according to John 3:16, Jesus and the Holy Spirit starts working on their behalf; this is the very opposite of trying to weed someone out of the Kingdom promised by John 3:16, once they've been accepted into the Kingdom in some way, most likely by John 3:16, as compared to the hiring process, where, when at the hiring process's most honest state, your qualifications will then lead you to an interview with other candidates besides you, in order or in an effort for a determination to be made as to who will be eliminated and who will be retained; and, that's a Satanic scheme if you can ever recognize one: basically, weeding out or that process.

But, usually, the hiring process isn't that honest; it's usually precisely just an affront in order that someone can be hired as to who the supervisors and managers wanted even before the posting, but, they had to put on a front to follow lawful requires which they are taught how to then rig, via the legal process, against someone trying to seek redress for a wrong; this further illustrates just how opposite of God's goal the hiring process really is, as to my point that you're confused, not being able to escape the perception within Satan's scheme; you can only see clarity by entering into God's flock via your contrition and sincerity with John 3:16 and becoming a Christian.

I've said time and time again that all people aren't saved, because all people don't choose to be saved by seeking to conform with John 3:16, not because they're someone being restricted by God, presumably to prevent them from being included with an elect group of people, as you imply; simply put, you're confused, because you understand Satan's scheme or the hiring process more than you want to understand God's plan that starts with John 3:16, for the reasons previously explained.

“Yes, the Bible says that Satan seeks to Kill, Steal and Destroy. That changes nothing as Satan's will is tied to what GOD allows him to do. Satan's power comes from GOD and Satan can only do what will be allotted for him to do. In other words, Satan's plan exists inside of GOD's plan. Even if GOD and Satan have different natures.”

Satan is using his own power; he's not drawing his power from God; Michael, on the other hand, does draw his power from God, as he is working with and for God.

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@dshipp17:

Jesus is The Truth

Don't resist The Truth

Don't be afraid of The Truth

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@dshipp17 said:

“You are making that up. Genesis never says that GOD gave Adam and Eve another chance by not having them and Humanity immediately perish. Genesis does however say that GOD punished Adam and Eve right after they had disobeyed him. GOD cursed Adam and Eve and GOD even cursed the Ground because he was so pissed about what Adam and Eve had done. Adam and Eve had no chance for redemption as in the story we see GOD kicking Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden and taking away their right to eat from The Tree of Life. Satan is an entity that is basically having his power controlled by GOD. Yes, Satan does bad things but because GOD is Omnipotent and Omniscient, that which Satan does was already known by GOD even before he created him as Lucifer.”

That's not something made up at all; it's something that's pretty literal and apparent from the text; but, it is you who is trying to do gymnastics, in order to make God look like the antagonist, Adam and Eve look like clueless victims, and Satan as either a non-factor or even possibly the protagonist, when it's pretty literal that Satan is the one who introduced or caused the calamity in this situation.

God preventing humanity from having to perish is precisely and exactly how God gave them another chance and displayed mercy, after giving them a chance to explain the situation. First, as was previously explained, free will had to take place; Satan then entered into the picture in order to steal, kill, and destroy; God then provided life abundantly, but He also had to give the message that sin has negative consequences. If Satan wasn't acting within his nature and as the adversary, he could have appeared and started doing something helpful like directing Eve to the Tree of Life or going to Adam and explaining their surroundings, or anything of a benevolent nature; instead, he did something of a malevolent nature with the apparent goal of getting Adam and Eve to do the one and only thing out of place: to disobey God.

No, you can't just leap frog over a very important development: that God spared their lives, to then hark on the punishment, which had to occur; it wasn't the punishment but the thought that consequences is what immediately took place; in this scenario, there wasn't a place for God to give a second chance within the consequences; the second chance was settled by not allowing Adam, Eve, and humanity to just perish, as Satan had intended. God's punishment was intended to be stern rather than harsh.

They did indeed have a chance at redemption, as they were allowed to live, even though they should have died. They had the opportunity to redeem themselves within the punishment, similar to someone deciding to reform in a prison with their time. Adam and Eve couldn't be allowed to remain in a paradise, otherwise, what would be the consequences for their sin and disobedience? In another context, it would be something expected of a parent towards a child who disobeyed.

Well, to that point that you think you have made, just go to or consider someplace where Satan's power can go unchecked by God; that place is Hell; are you still considering Satan so fair now, seeing how the conditions are for the souls in Hell? Satan had been cast out of Heaven and was trying to steal humanity's place of prestige within the eyes of God; and, he succeeded, but, within limits that God meted out; Satan thought and intended, as I pointed out, for humanity to be destroyed. Since they weren't, that's one way that God's mercy prevailed, while, at the same time, He also meted out a punishment, to show that misbehavior has consequences.

God is obviously more serving to put contingencies in place to offset the destruction that Satan can cause; but, He isn't in control of Satan's actions and what Satan decides to do with his own power, as Satan exercises free will by making his choices as he sees fit. God provides freedom; you're suggesting that God should more actively control, only so that you can believe that you've made another point that is against mainstream Christian interpretation of Christianity and to buy into some of the nonsense that largely ignorant atheists purport to be making; and, in the face of clear clarification; you're not actually surviving or winning, you're just dragging on to appear to be making a point, by appearing not to be doing something that is simple and basic: that is, saving face, after the next bruising.

“Speaking on Romans 8:29, this is easy. If GOD knows everything, why the heck would he not know who will be Saved and who will not be Saved ? You, could at best say that GOD is not causing whosoever to be Saved but GOD already knows who will be Saved. This is the basis for his Omniscience. GOD already knows what will be.”

Well, again, this is a point that has been established to you time and again: how are you trying to construct a case that God knowing what will happen is going to then serve to hinder people from choosing to be saved according to John 3:16, presumably because they aren't among the elect? The Scripture is clear that it's whosoever decides to take the leap according to John 3:16 is immediately going to have Jesus and the Holy Spirit working on their behalf to then work to insure their salvation, where, through the Holy Trinity, they are also one with God; coupled with this, the Bible directs Christians to spread the Gospel throughout the world; thus, another clue that John 3:16 is intended to be all encompassing. Again, the third element at play is free will, beside God's plan, and Satan's rebellion against God to destroy as many people as he is able to destroy, as the real antagonist.

“What the heck does the Jews being in bondage in Egypt for 430 years have to do with what is happening in Numbers 11 or Numbers 21 ? Those passages are clear. The Jews complained, GOD got mad and GOD killed several Israelites by plague or fire. There was no prolonged time between GOD's anger with the Israelites and his timing of punishment. It damn sure was not no 430 years. We know GOD's reason for his action. It's stated in 1 Chronicles 21:7 when the passage clearly says that the command ( David's command ) disgusted the LORD so he punished Israel. GOD punished Israel for the sin that David had committed. There is no mystery here.”

Well, it was explained directly in my comment as an explanation to something that you said. The point was that there was some time before God acted in Numbers; that time was to allow for contrition, confession, and repentance; when it was clear that these elements were not going to take place, God meted out deserved punishment.

Head back to Exodus 16-17:7; there, it will explain the sin that the Jews were knowingly committing by complaining; they knew that it was a form of rebelling against God, as He considered it; thus, it's relative to Exodus 16-17:7, not moments after Numbers 11 and 21. And, then, coupled with my earlier point that, since the level of detail required to give an obvious response to your detailed question, you'd have to extract good intentions with God's judgment.

No, God punished both David and Israel for each of their own sins, as individuals, as opposed to a group, for the reasons previously explained to you, and now elaborated upon a bit more.

“I can't believe this. You literally used the same story to prove my point that GOD is in control of Satan. In the story of Job, Satan had to get permission from GOD to even use his Power to attack Job. Hence, proving the point that GOD is in control of Satan. Satan can do nothing unless GOD allows him to. That's the case for essentially any of us.”

No, this doesn't establish any point your way at all; Satan was responding to God, when Job had been established as being a rare exception, perhaps an only, exception, that God considered him righteous; in response to God's question, Satan also implied that he was just coming from having been seeking whom he could devour and presumably, from the way it was said, was successful on a mass front; thus, this establishes that Satan was acting on his own within limits imposed by God so that earth can be prevented from looking Hell, as a place where Satan's power is going unchecked by God.

As I said, God placed limits on Satan, Satan decided how he wanted to proceed within those limits, which was to cause calamity, and, afterward, God went out to repair and restore the damage. This didn't demonstrate that God was in control of Satan, at all, it demonstrated that God released a number of limitations from Satan, as something else Satan also said was that Job was prospering, due to God's hedge of protection around him. This shows that God will allow a test to come your way, as one of his flock, as a Christian, but not something beyond what you can bear (e.g. and where God is there to hear your prayer and respond to humility and contrition); however, Satan wants to destroy you, so that's going to be far beyond what you can bear, but for God's limitations on Satan; again, it's a demonstration that it is Satan, not God, who is controlling his actions; God just enters in, in order to place limitations on what Satan is allowed to do to you, especially, and particularly, as a Christian; sometimes, if the end result is death, it's also because the end result is also an eternity in Heaven and Paradise for that Christian, the ultimate gift and salvation from Jesus.

“ If GOD the Father, Yahweh is Omniscient. If Yahweh knows All Things. Then what in the heck could be hidden or not known unto him ? How does the Holy Trinity even figure unto this if The Father is Omniscient ? Are you saying that GOD does not know all things ? Even if you say Jesus does not know all things, does not the Father know all things ?”

No, but, rather, it establishes that once someone decides to follow John 3:16, that person is going to have Jesus and the Holy Spirit working on their behalf to ensure their salvation, where they are also one with God.

“I have not flipped anything. I have stated time and time again that GOD is Omniscient knowing all things and because GOD knows all things and things before they happen. GOD would know who would be saved and who will not be saved. Now you can say that GOD is trying to fix reality so that everyone has a chance to be saved, but if that is the case then why isn't everyone saved ? Why is it that The Almighty who Jesus said Nothing was Impossible for GOD can not find a way to save everyone where we would all Freely come to him and come to him knowing he is GOD ?”

You certainly did flip things, if you go back to what I was responding to, at the time; you took my example of the supervisor and hiring process to then suggest that it was how God actually operated, contrary to what I'd tried to illustrate with that example, even though my point was to illustrate that God was the opposite; you suggested that God is weeding people out from salvation in order that an elect few can meet a predestination that was established before creation; but, that's not what is going on; God is trying to bring as many people to their salvation as an individual's freewill will allow them to make a leap and abide by John 3:16 in order to gain their own salvation. Once the person decides, with contrition and faith, to come aboard according to John 3:16, Jesus and the Holy Spirit starts working on their behalf; this is the very opposite of trying to weed someone out of the Kingdom promised by John 3:16, once they've been accepted into the Kingdom in some way, most likely by John 3:16, as compared to the hiring process, where, when at the hiring process's most honest state, your qualifications will then lead you to an interview with other candidates besides you, in order or in an effort for a determination to be made as to who will be eliminated and who will be retained; and, that's a Satanic scheme if you can ever recognize one: basically, weeding out or that process.

But, usually, the hiring process isn't that honest; it's usually precisely just an affront in order that someone can be hired as to who the supervisors and managers wanted even before the posting, but, they had to put on a front to follow lawful requires which they are taught how to then rig, via the legal process, against someone trying to seek redress for a wrong; this further illustrates just how opposite of God's goal the hiring process really is, as to my point that you're confused, not being able to escape the perception within Satan's scheme; you can only see clarity by entering into God's flock via your contrition and sincerity with John 3:16 and becoming a Christian.

I've said time and time again that all people aren't saved, because all people don't choose to be saved by seeking to conform with John 3:16, not because they're someone being restricted by God, presumably to prevent them from being included with an elect group of people, as you imply; simply put, you're confused, because you understand Satan's scheme or the hiring process more than you want to understand God's plan that starts with John 3:16, for the reasons previously explained.

“Yes, the Bible says that Satan seeks to Kill, Steal and Destroy. That changes nothing as Satan's will is tied to what GOD allows him to do. Satan's power comes from GOD and Satan can only do what will be allotted for him to do. In other words, Satan's plan exists inside of GOD's plan. Even if GOD and Satan have different natures.”

Satan is using his own power; he's not drawing his power from God; Michael, on the other hand, does draw his power from God, as he is working with and for God.

1. Here you go assuming a bunch of things once again. The passage clearly shows GOD not being slow to anger as well as he provided no real means for Adam and Eve any redemption. GOD allowed Satan to essentially trick Eve which lead to the disobedience of Adam and in turn GOD became upset and cursed them both and the ground. Where was GOD's attempt to redeem either of them afterwards ? Especially considering you admit that it was Satan who introduced the Calamity here. Now why is GOD so hard on Adam and Eve if he knows this all happened because of Satan anyways ?

GOD did not have to Curse either Adam or Eve or The Ground. GOD can do whatever he wants. GOD could have punished Adam and Eve by having them tickled in the feet for 20 minutes if he wanted to. Instead we have GOD choosing to Curse them both. Adam and Eve was given no chance at redemption, just because GOD allowed them to live, how is that being redeemed if you have been Cursed by GOD ? Redemption would mean GOD had lifted the curse from Adam and Eve and given them another shot at Immortality through The Tree of Life.

2. You have to be Trolling here. I said clearly that GOD knows who will be his Elect as stated in Romans 8:29. Yes, at best people can still choose to believe in Jesus but if GOD is Omniscient he already knows who will believe in him and will not regardless of how you define Free Will. Why is this so hard for you to understand ?

3. There is no where in Numbers 11 or Numbers 21 where it states that there was time between when the Israelites complained and GOD sent those plagues upon them where he got pissed off. I think it's fairly clear that GOD acted upon their complaining pretty quickly because GOD would relent from sending the plagues or snakes after the plagues was sent. You would see Israelites then repenting afterwards. These events are about immediate actions taken by the Almighty when he got pissed off by Israelites complaining.

The passage in 1 Chronicles 21 never says that Israel had committed any Sin. It only says that David's sin would cause guilt to come upon Israel. Now 2 Samuel 24 says GOD was angry with Israel. The thing is 2 Samuel 24 also says that GOD encourage David to Sin by taking a Census. Now why would GOD encourage David to Sin ? That's why I say this passage is Fishy. 1 Chronicles 21 seems more credible. Still, nothing about Israel sinning, only that David had sinned and caused these disasters for Israel.

4. So GOD is not Omniscient ? Got It.

5. No I didn't, I said that GOD already knows who will be saved via his Omniscience. I used Romans 8:29 as an example of how GOD predestined those whom he will save already. I never said how many. I don't know how many.

6. Where do you think Satan got his power from ? Who allows Satan to use his power ? Satan's power comes from GOD and GOD allows him to do things.

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#28093  Edited By dshipp17

@king_saturn:

“Here you go assuming a bunch of things once again. The passage clearly shows GOD not being slow to anger as well as he provided no real means for Adam and Eve any redemption. GOD allowed Satan to essentially trick Eve which lead to the disobedience of Adam and in turn GOD became upset and cursed them both and the ground. Where was GOD's attempt to redeem either of them afterwards ? Especially considering you admit that it was Satan who introduced the Calamity here. Now why is GOD so hard on Adam and Eve if he knows this all happened because of Satan anyways ?”

In here, you're assuming a bunch of things as well; except my assumptions are inline with the character of God, while your assumptions have nothing to do with the character of God, as well as trying to somehow disregard the plain showing of the text in Satan's involvement. And my assumptions are extrapolations consistent with what the mainstream church teaches, while yours is showing that you're being a patsy for what the atheists say, in their lame attempts at a joke, rather than showing some independent thought of your own, by paying attentions to what Christians are taught, when this specific topic is discussed time and time again in Sunday school, Sunday morning service, Bible study, etc.

You're also missing the part where Adam and Eve had, for a time, unfettered access to God. During this time, you would have to presumed that Adam and Eve didn't question God about why partaking of the Tree of Knowledge was not allowed, when a natural instinct/impulse would be a curiosity as to why such would need to be the case. During this time, this could have been where Adam and Eve received the meaning of death from God, as, otherwise, death was something that was undefined and had never occurred, by a logical extension from the context. And, with Eve slightly changing what she was told by God, in such a way to elicit a different explanation from Satan, shows that they'd likely discussed this Tree of Knowledge with God, possibly extensively and repeatedly. And, it appears that Eve displayed that they were probably already familiar with the Serpent, as well.

And, clearly, there are lots of details missing. It would sure be good if we had as detailed of an account of Adam and Eve, and the generation of Adam, as the Bible calls it, as we have with Moses and the Exodus. If we trust God, gain access to the Kingdom of God by following John 3:16, I'm sure that God will be more then happy to tell us many key missing details, while in Heaven; but, if you take this lack of information to then accuse God, you'll miss out on an opportunity to gain clarification, provided it is not being used as a basis for you to avoid or reject the invitation to the Kingdom of God and Heaven that is offered by John 3:16.

The alternative is going to be trying to get the explanation from Satan and his demons while in eternal torment. Satan might either decide to give you an explanation, while taunting you, or, withhold it altogether, where you couldn't be certain if you're being shown the full truth, anyway. Thus, I'd trust God and reserve judgment until God shows me; except, mines would more be out of curiosity; in Heaven, I'll also have the opportunity to explore the universe; I can bask in the pleasure of Paradise, one week and explore parts of the universe another week, have long and informed conversations with The Holy Trinity the rest of the time; I wouldn't want to forfeit that opportunity, if I were not yet already a Christian.

God's character is to be slow to anger; God being slow to anger is talking about God, as He examines humanity; this incident here was the very beginning of humanity and didn't allow for an opportunity to know, as it was, presumably, the very first time that disobedience to God had ever occurred. The slow to anger part is discussing God's character, after His observing repeated incidents of disobedience. In order to do that, there would need to be multiple examples of disobedience. You can't add 0 and 0 together. Basically, and essentially, God's display of anger comes along with the days of Noah, which was at least 2 thousand years later and after a very long track record of disobedience by humanity; thus, the time of Noah should actually be considered the first time that God showed anger, which does indeed show that He's slow to anger. These earlier examples are of God setting the rules and demonstrating to humanity that disobedience leads to consequences. God reacting by executing judgment and responding by dishing out the consequences for a bad action is not the same thing as becoming angry, necessarily; it's all context specific.

As explained already, God had to both show discipline and show mercy, at the same time. The mercy part came by allowing for humanity to survive, rather than to perish, as forewarned. Here, you're talking about how God is deciding to discipline His children, not about how God shows mercy, obviously by conflating the two, despite being told multiple times now that God had already shown mercy in allowing humanity to continue to exist. If further clarification is necessary, then, look to the fact that Satan was expecting partaking of the Tree of Knowledge to be their end. Based on that, it's clear that God showed mercy by creating an alternative path by which humanity could then continue to exist.

Oh, and I just noticed, I let you get away with a bit of wordplay, by introducing the term, redemption. Redemption isn't something anywhere at play here. It's only a matter of penalty and consequences for a transgression or an act of disobedience.

“You have to be Trolling here. I said clearly that GOD knows who will be his Elect as stated in Romans 8:29. Yes, at best people can still choose to believe in Jesus but if GOD is Omniscient he already knows who will believe in him and will not regardless of how you define Free Will. Why is this so hard for you to understand ?”

Actually, it is you who are trolling here, you've been told repeatedly that it is clear that that verse is taken out of the contextual meaning of Romans Chapter 8, as a whole, which is to describe the transition from flesh to spirit, after becoming a Christian. That verse is not, in the context, intended to mean, as you say, that there are only a few elect who will or can enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. There are other places in the Bible, as well, which says that your choice to become Christian is the only real factor determining rather or not you can enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. In the context of Romans Chapter 8, as a whole, the implied meaning of verse 29 would be that you will be apart of an elect group of people who chose to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior by trusting in John 3:16. This then can also jive with a confusion created from reading too literally into one Scripture such that you can come away with the ideal that you could be someone who is hopelessly lost from being apart of this elect group of people. And, this idea has to be extracted from assumptions that aren't actually there, in order to derive the idea. Thus, follow John 3:16 and you will be among the elect.

Also, the ball has been shown to be in your court a number of times from the question: what would God's knowing who will be among the elect have to do with someone choosing to become a Christian, according to John 3:16, as you seem to be suggesting that somehow that is going to serve to exclude or weed out people who chose to follow John 3:16? It was pointed out that that interpretation is very inconsistent with what the Bible teaches both about the nature of God and this process, as a whole, as, to enter into the process, contrition, humility, and sincerity are required, along with the implied notion derived from all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, which is that you're not going to be expected to be perfect in order to remain eligible to be apart of the Kingdom of God by becoming a Christian; Romans 8 teaches about the transition from flesh to spirit, with the decision to trust in John 3:16; another part teaches that the Holy Spirit will also keep you in check, in the event that you backslide, but need to confess to a sin according to at least 1 John 1:9; the Holy Spirit will be there to chastise you, if your backsliding becomes too much, where you decide to put off your responsibilities of being a Christian; again, though, this is predicated on your initial contrition and sincerity to become Christian; and, thus, I introduced my situation which is most similar to someone who is a recovering addict; except, the Bible speaks in terms of actual sinning (e.g. adultery or fornication, where my issue is referred to as burning with passion and providing the suggestion that I get married so that I don't burn with passion; the Bible is warning that burning with passion could lead to my doing the actual sin, which would be committing adultery or fornication; but, redemption is for the actual sin of fornication or adultery, where it then wants you to repent from fornication or adultery, which, you clearly can do; if you can fornicate or commit adultery, then, you have what it takes to get married; but, burning with passion is a different matter and doesn't necessarily mean that; and, this is where a just God comes into play to evaluate the circumstances fairly, as, what exactly is burning with passion, relative to the actual sin?; but, in the past, when I put Christianity a bit on the back burner, God has shown me that I'm indeed apart of His Kingdom and Family by chastising me on several different occasions, as well as through other signs of reassurances; burning with passion, though, is a topic that you can use to determine if a pastor is teaching you the actual Scripture or using the Scripture to tell you how they'd like to see things go which is to say that they want God to behave like people and completely abandon you, should you fall short of the glory of God one too many times; but, why would burning with passion be treated any differently then being prideful, which God explicitly says that he dislikes?; have one of those pastors resolve that question).

“There is no where in Numbers 11 or Numbers 21 where it states that there was time between when the Israelites complained and GOD sent those plagues upon them where he got pissed off. I think it's fairly clear that GOD acted upon their complaining pretty quickly because GOD would relent from sending the plagues or snakes after the plagues was sent. You would see Israelites then repenting afterwards. These events are about immediate actions taken by the Almighty when he got pissed off by Israelites complaining.”

I'd already plainly showed that your take on this matter, that God essentially snapped against the Jews for complaining, is just not correct. The Mandate was laid out in Exodus; the events in Numbers occurred some period of time after the event in Exodus that lead to God's Mandate. The incident wasn't about God merely getting upset in response to a complaint about food.

“The passage in 1 Chronicles 21 never says that Israel had committed any Sin.”

It didn't have to specifically say that they were sinning; unless it's an exception such as Job, you can assume that, as a general population, they were sinning, if God pronounced Judgment upon them; otherwise, it would mean that God derived pleasure from acting against innocent people which is inconsistent with what the Bible teaches about God's character.

“Now 2 Samuel 24 says GOD was angry with Israel. The thing is 2 Samuel 24 also says that GOD encourage David to Sin by taking a Census. Now why would GOD encourage David to Sin ?”

It sounds like this event happened in response to the event in 1 Chronicles 21, where Satan directed them to take the census, as it leaps forward from the end of 2 Samuel 23. God didn't encourage David to sin; more then likely, God was undoing a prior action by David. What 2 Samuel 24 helps to illustrate is that the Jews had in fact sinned in someway, contrary to your suggestion that God took His anger out on the Jews for the actions of David. Thus, God used David's guilty consciousness in order to punish the Jews for some type of sin. It teaches that both David and the Jews had sinned against God before they acted, except that David was the only one who showed contrition, after being given an opportunity.

“ Where do you think Satan got his power from ? Who allows Satan to use his power ? Satan's power comes from GOD and GOD allows him to do things.”

Satan being a being with supernatural powers certainly doesn't, by extension, mean that he was acting by deriving his supernatural powers from God, when he acted against Job, particularly where the text of the Scripture is so clear as to what happened. Satan used his powers because he was already created with powers. In the text, it says that Satan pointed out that Job was prospering because of God's hedge of protection around him. From this exchange, God removed His hedge of protection from around Job and Satan then proceeded to attack, within limits that God set; Satan was challenging Job's character as a demonstration to God. Basically, it's like saying someone used a special skill to accomplish something; God blessed that person with a gift, but that person, using their freewill decided what to do with their own gift. That Satan was being essentially energized by God, or he couldn't accomplish what he did to Job, is simply not correct and something that you inserted into the passage as anyone can tell.

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@king_saturn:

Being Satan being a being with supernatural being certainly doesn't, by extended derivation, mean that he was acting by deriving his supernatural powers from God, when he acted by deriving his powers from God against Job, particularly where the text of the Scripture is so clear as to what happened. Satan used his powers because he was already created with powers that God gave him, even though God knew Satan would use them for evil sinful purposes. In the text, it says that Satan pointed out that Job was prospering because of God's hedge of protection around him. From this exchange, God removed His hedge of protection from around Job and Satan then proceeded to attack as God wished, within limits that God set; Satan was challenging Job's character as a demonstration to God because God wanted it to happen. Basically, it's like saying someone used a broom as a shovel, God blessed that person with a feather duster, that person, using their freewill decided what to do with their own dusty broom stick. That Satan was Created by God, and couldn't accomplish what he did to Job without God, is simply obvious as anyone can tell.

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@dshipp17 said:

@king_saturn:

“Here you go assuming a bunch of things once again. The passage clearly shows GOD not being slow to anger as well as he provided no real means for Adam and Eve any redemption. GOD allowed Satan to essentially trick Eve which lead to the disobedience of Adam and in turn GOD became upset and cursed them both and the ground. Where was GOD's attempt to redeem either of them afterwards ? Especially considering you admit that it was Satan who introduced the Calamity here. Now why is GOD so hard on Adam and Eve if he knows this all happened because of Satan anyways ?”

In here, you're assuming a bunch of things as well; except my assumptions are inline with the character of God, while your assumptions have nothing to do with the character of God, as well as trying to somehow disregard the plain showing of the text in Satan's involvement. And my assumptions are extrapolations consistent with what the mainstream church teaches, while yours is showing that you're being a patsy for what the atheists say, in their lame attempts at a joke, rather than showing some independent thought of your own, by paying attentions to what Christians are taught, when this specific topic is discussed time and time again in Sunday school, Sunday morning service, Bible study, etc.

You're also missing the part where Adam and Eve had, for a time, unfettered access to God. During this time, you would have to presumed that Adam and Eve didn't question God about why partaking of the Tree of Knowledge was not allowed, when a natural instinct/impulse would be a curiosity as to why such would need to be the case. During this time, this could have been where Adam and Eve received the meaning of death from God, as, otherwise, death was something that was undefined and had never occurred, by a logical extension from the context. And, with Eve slightly changing what she was told by God, in such a way to elicit a different explanation from Satan, shows that they'd likely discussed this Tree of Knowledge with God, possibly extensively and repeatedly. And, it appears that Eve displayed that they were probably already familiar with the Serpent, as well.

And, clearly, there are lots of details missing. It would sure be good if we had as detailed of an account of Adam and Eve, and the generation of Adam, as the Bible calls it, as we have with Moses and the Exodus. If we trust God, gain access to the Kingdom of God by following John 3:16, I'm sure that God will be more then happy to tell us many key missing details, while in Heaven; but, if you take this lack of information to then accuse God, you'll miss out on an opportunity to gain clarification, provided it is not being used as a basis for you to avoid or reject the invitation to the Kingdom of God and Heaven that is offered by John 3:16.

The alternative is going to be trying to get the explanation from Satan and his demons while in eternal torment. Satan might either decide to give you an explanation, while taunting you, or, withhold it altogether, where you couldn't be certain if you're being shown the full truth, anyway. Thus, I'd trust God and reserve judgment until God shows me; except, mines would more be out of curiosity; in Heaven, I'll also have the opportunity to explore the universe; I can bask in the pleasure of Paradise, one week and explore parts of the universe another week, have long and informed conversations with The Holy Trinity the rest of the time; I wouldn't want to forfeit that opportunity, if I were not yet already a Christian.

God's character is to be slow to anger; God being slow to anger is talking about God, as He examines humanity; this incident here was the very beginning of humanity and didn't allow for an opportunity to know, as it was, presumably, the very first time that disobedience to God had ever occurred. The slow to anger part is discussing God's character, after His observing repeated incidents of disobedience. In order to do that, there would need to be multiple examples of disobedience. You can't add 0 and 0 together. Basically, and essentially, God's display of anger comes along with the days of Noah, which was at least 2 thousand years later and after a very long track record of disobedience by humanity; thus, the time of Noah should actually be considered the first time that God showed anger, which does indeed show that He's slow to anger. These earlier examples are of God setting the rules and demonstrating to humanity that disobedience leads to consequences. God reacting by executing judgment and responding by dishing out the consequences for a bad action is not the same thing as becoming angry, necessarily; it's all context specific.

As explained already, God had to both show discipline and show mercy, at the same time. The mercy part came by allowing for humanity to survive, rather than to perish, as forewarned. Here, you're talking about how God is deciding to discipline His children, not about how God shows mercy, obviously by conflating the two, despite being told multiple times now that God had already shown mercy in allowing humanity to continue to exist. If further clarification is necessary, then, look to the fact that Satan was expecting partaking of the Tree of Knowledge to be their end. Based on that, it's clear that God showed mercy by creating an alternative path by which humanity could then continue to exist.

Oh, and I just noticed, I let you get away with a bit of wordplay, by introducing the term, redemption. Redemption isn't something anywhere at play here. It's only a matter of penalty and consequences for a transgression or an act of disobedience.

“You have to be Trolling here. I said clearly that GOD knows who will be his Elect as stated in Romans 8:29. Yes, at best people can still choose to believe in Jesus but if GOD is Omniscient he already knows who will believe in him and will not regardless of how you define Free Will. Why is this so hard for you to understand ?”

Actually, it is you who are trolling here, you've been told repeatedly that it is clear that that verse is taken out of the contextual meaning of Romans Chapter 8, as a whole, which is to describe the transition from flesh to spirit, after becoming a Christian. That verse is not, in the context, intended to mean, as you say, that there are only a few elect who will or can enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. There are other places in the Bible, as well, which says that your choice to become Christian is the only real factor determining rather or not you can enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. In the context of Romans Chapter 8, as a whole, the implied meaning of verse 29 would be that you will be apart of an elect group of people who chose to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior by trusting in John 3:16. This then can also jive with a confusion created from reading too literally into one Scripture such that you can come away with the ideal that you could be someone who is hopelessly lost from being apart of this elect group of people. And, this idea has to be extracted from assumptions that aren't actually there, in order to derive the idea. Thus, follow John 3:16 and you will be among the elect.

Also, the ball has been shown to be in your court a number of times from the question: what would God's knowing who will be among the elect have to do with someone choosing to become a Christian, according to John 3:16, as you seem to be suggesting that somehow that is going to serve to exclude or weed out people who chose to follow John 3:16? It was pointed out that that interpretation is very inconsistent with what the Bible teaches both about the nature of God and this process, as a whole, as, to enter into the process, contrition, humility, and sincerity are required, along with the implied notion derived from all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, which is that you're not going to be expected to be perfect in order to remain eligible to be apart of the Kingdom of God by becoming a Christian; Romans 8 teaches about the transition from flesh to spirit, with the decision to trust in John 3:16; another part teaches that the Holy Spirit will also keep you in check, in the event that you backslide, but need to confess to a sin according to at least 1 John 1:9; the Holy Spirit will be there to chastise you, if your backsliding becomes too much, where you decide to put off your responsibilities of being a Christian; again, though, this is predicated on your initial contrition and sincerity to become Christian; and, thus, I introduced my situation which is most similar to someone who is a recovering addict; except, the Bible speaks in terms of actual sinning (e.g. adultery or fornication, where my issue is referred to as burning with passion and providing the suggestion that I get married so that I don't burn with passion; the Bible is warning that burning with passion could lead to my doing the actual sin, which would be committing adultery or fornication; but, redemption is for the actual sin of fornication or adultery, where it then wants you to repent from fornication or adultery, which, you clearly can do; if you can fornicate or commit adultery, then, you have what it takes to get married; but, burning with passion is a different matter and doesn't necessarily mean that; and, this is where a just God comes into play to evaluate the circumstances fairly, as, what exactly is burning with passion, relative to the actual sin?; but, in the past, when I put Christianity a bit on the back burner, God has shown me that I'm indeed apart of His Kingdom and Family by chastising me on several different occasions, as well as through other signs of reassurances; burning with passion, though, is a topic that you can use to determine if a pastor is teaching you the actual Scripture or using the Scripture to tell you how they'd like to see things go which is to say that they want God to behave like people and completely abandon you, should you fall short of the glory of God one too many times; but, why would burning with passion be treated any differently then being prideful, which God explicitly says that he dislikes?; have one of those pastors resolve that question).

“There is no where in Numbers 11 or Numbers 21 where it states that there was time between when the Israelites complained and GOD sent those plagues upon them where he got pissed off. I think it's fairly clear that GOD acted upon their complaining pretty quickly because GOD would relent from sending the plagues or snakes after the plagues was sent. You would see Israelites then repenting afterwards. These events are about immediate actions taken by the Almighty when he got pissed off by Israelites complaining.”

I'd already plainly showed that your take on this matter, that God essentially snapped against the Jews for complaining, is just not correct. The Mandate was laid out in Exodus; the events in Numbers occurred some period of time after the event in Exodus that lead to God's Mandate. The incident wasn't about God merely getting upset in response to a complaint about food.

“The passage in 1 Chronicles 21 never says that Israel had committed any Sin.”

It didn't have to specifically say that they were sinning; unless it's an exception such as Job, you can assume that, as a general population, they were sinning, if God pronounced Judgment upon them; otherwise, it would mean that God derived pleasure from acting against innocent people which is inconsistent with what the Bible teaches about God's character.

“Now 2 Samuel 24 says GOD was angry with Israel. The thing is 2 Samuel 24 also says that GOD encourage David to Sin by taking a Census. Now why would GOD encourage David to Sin ?”

It sounds like this event happened in response to the event in 1 Chronicles 21, where Satan directed them to take the census, as it leaps forward from the end of 2 Samuel 23. God didn't encourage David to sin; more then likely, God was undoing a prior action by David. What 2 Samuel 24 helps to illustrate is that the Jews had in fact sinned in someway, contrary to your suggestion that God took His anger out on the Jews for the actions of David. Thus, God used David's guilty consciousness in order to punish the Jews for some type of sin. It teaches that both David and the Jews had sinned against God before they acted, except that David was the only one who showed contrition, after being given an opportunity.

“ Where do you think Satan got his power from ? Who allows Satan to use his power ? Satan's power comes from GOD and GOD allows him to do things.”

Satan being a being with supernatural powers certainly doesn't, by extension, mean that he was acting by deriving his supernatural powers from God, when he acted against Job, particularly where the text of the Scripture is so clear as to what happened. Satan used his powers because he was already created with powers. In the text, it says that Satan pointed out that Job was prospering because of God's hedge of protection around him. From this exchange, God removed His hedge of protection from around Job and Satan then proceeded to attack, within limits that God set; Satan was challenging Job's character as a demonstration to God. Basically, it's like saying someone used a special skill to accomplish something; God blessed that person with a gift, but that person, using their freewill decided what to do with their own gift. That Satan was being essentially energized by God, or he couldn't accomplish what he did to Job, is simply not correct and something that you inserted into the passage as anyone can tell.

1. I am not assuming anything. I am giving a synopsis of what was going on in Genesis 3 between Adam and Eve. You are just assuming things on the basis of what you believe about the story of Adam and Eve and GOD's character. I am using the Bible for a source... you are using your own thoughts about the Bible as a source. GOD gave no redemption to Adam and Eve and you know it because if he did you could show it was so from Scripture. So far you have not.

2. The point of Romans 8:29 was that GOD knows beforehand whom he will save and conform to be like Christ via his Omniscience. If GOD knows everything he should know beforehand whom will be saved and whom will not and how many will be saved. I never said how many would be saved, I only showed you that GOD knows already who his Elect will be via the Bible.

3. Exodus 16 and 17 is a different event from Numbers 11 and 21. The passages in Numbers are clear. The Israelites complained, GOD became angry and GOD sent out plagues or serpents to punish the Israelites. You said GOD was slow to anger, I showed where GOD was very immediate with his anger in these two instances.

4. No, 1 Chronicles 21, makes it very clear that it was David's sin that disgusted the LORD and caused him to punish Israel. It's stated specifically in 1 Chronicles 21:6-7.

5. Say What ? 2 Samuel 24 specifically says that it was The LORD who incited David to take a Census which was to commit Sin. There is no assuming here. 2 Samuel 24 and 1 Chronicles 21 is a telling of the same event.

6. Again, who gave Satan his Powers ? Who allows Satan to use his Powers ? I know you know the answer to this.

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Still going in circles because SOMEONE won't be truthful. That is very sad. Once again, God doesn't exist, nor will he ever, and not one person can prove that he does.

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@king_saturn:

“1. I am not assuming anything. I am giving a synopsis of what was going on in Genesis 3 between Adam and Eve. You are just assuming things on the basis of what you believe about the story of Adam and Eve and GOD's character. I am using the Bible for a source... you are using your own thoughts about the Bible as a source. GOD gave no redemption to Adam and Eve and you know it because if he did you could show it was so from Scripture. So far you have not.”

Previously, I rebutted one of your comments that read: “The overall context of the Bible does not give a Nature of GOD that is solely bent on Saving Humans though or one that is always bent towards Saving Humans. You see it time and time again in the Bible, GOD immediately punished Adam and Eve in Genesis after they disobeyed him and did GOD give Adam and Eve any redemption after they Sinned ?”

From here, you're presuming much in your assumption that Adam and Eve were immediately punished, in context with my comment immediately before your latest quote (e.g. that Adam and Eve had unfettered access with God for some sufficient period of time which would or should have allowed them the opportunity to gain much insight concerning God's Command and warning, which are very logical extensions from the situation described in the Bible; for example, being at or near the very beginning of creation, death was, more likely than not, something that had not yet occurred, which would then have sparked an impulsive curiosity within Adam and Eve to discover what exactly was this “death” that God was referencing as a warning; or, you're assuming that God was interacting with Adam and Eve in the way that He currently interacts with us, or, even Noah or David, which, then, wouldn't jive with Adam and Eve noticing God in their presence, and pursuing them, shortly after they'd partaken of the Tree of Knowledge; from this last exchange, Adam and Eve were interacting with God directly, almost like another person, by another logical extension). Your latest quote is still premised on this prior comment from you. From the rest of the Bible, we know that God is always fair, usually long suffering, depending on the context and situation, at hand, or usually both long suffering and fair, but, His punishment(s) can be very stern or even somewhat harsh, when a punishment is necessary, depending on who's perspective. But, despite this, you're assuming that God warned Adam and Eve not to partake of the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and then immediately punished them at the first opportunity provided, where He just left the Command to them with no further guidance, clarification, or interaction about the situation, where later interactions with God, although very brief, could not jive with this take on the situation. But, this would not be fair, at least. In my prior comment, I pointed out some things that were likely true from a reading of the text, which would then lead us to be more inline with God's character from the Bible and from personal experiences with God from me, as a Christian, as well as the described personal experiences of other Christians, which isn't one that shows that He isn't bent towards the salvation of humans.

“The point of Romans 8:29 was that GOD knows beforehand whom he will save and conform to be like Christ via his Omniscience. If GOD knows everything he should know beforehand whom will be saved and whom will not and how many will be saved. I never said how many would be saved, I only showed you that GOD knows already who his Elect will be via the Bible.”

No, this is not the point of Romans 8:29; it's just an extrapolation that you're trying to insert into the text; the point of Romans 8:29 would have to be gauged from the overall context of the entirety of Romans 8, which is describing what will be taking place, once you become Christian, as well as how we were redeemed from the Old Testament by Jesus. From this, more likely then not, the better or more reasonable interpretation for Romans 8:29 would be that a person who decides to become a Christian would then be made apart of the elect. In our exchange, this is especially noteworthy for you, as you appear to be trying to imply that there will be a weeding out process for people who become Christian, so that a preordained group of people called the elect are the only ones remaining to enter into the Kingdom of God, even though this is inconsistent with several verses found within the New Testament, such as both John 3:18 and the rest of Romans 8, itself.

Or, in the face of John 3:16, what is God having foreknowledge of who will be saved and who will not going to have to do with the overall message given by John 3:16 of inclusion for anyone seeking salvation throughout the world? The only way you might be still referencing such is to suggest that there would be a weeding out process, as you tried to associated with my example of the job application process, which I'd provided as a contrasting example.

“Exodus 16 and 17 is a different event from Numbers 11 and 21. The passages in Numbers are clear. The Israelites complained, GOD became angry and GOD sent out plagues or serpents to punish the Israelites. You said GOD was slow to anger, I showed where GOD was very immediate with his anger in these two instances.”

Exodus 16 and 17 explains the reasons that complaining was objectionable to God by the time that we get to Numbers 11 and 21. As you can see, had I not introduced Exodus 16 and 17, you're more easily able to seemingly demonstrate that God is long suffering and bent on the salvation of people, which is my point. God was sending a message and sending out a penalty for prolonged disobedience; it wasn't just an immediate reaction to the complaining; Exodus 16 and 17 prove that God would not have immediately become angry in response to complaining.

“No, 1 Chronicles 21, makes it very clear that it was David's sin that disgusted the LORD and caused him to punish Israel. It's stated specifically in 1 Chronicles 21:6-7. Say What ? 2 Samuel 24 specifically says that it was The LORD who incited David to take a Census which was to commit Sin. There is no assuming here. 2 Samuel 24 and 1 Chronicles 21 is a telling of the same event.”

Here, you're extrapolating from the two verses of Scripture, in order to mislead, but, trying to exclude, also to mislead. I, however, brought the two versus together, in order to gain some clarification, after investigating what you were trying to say.

It was Satan who incited David to take the conscious; but, God, also required David to take the census. Basically, instead of saying that one or the other caused the census, we can also assume that both God and Satan caused the census, but, fort different reasons and at different times, but still during the same event.

In this situation, 2 Samuel 24 clarifies for us that the Jews were not innocent, while 1 Chronicles 21 clarifies for us that David was contrite. Thus, God didn't punish the Jews for the sins of David, but, rather, everyone for their own sins; however, the Jews were the ones who faced the blunt of God's punishing wrath, because, as I previously pointed out, David showed contrition, but it had become clear that the Jews were not going to be contrite about whatever real sin had occurred, at the incitement of Satan, as ever the tempter. Such interpretation is consistent with Satan's character and God's character, after Satan has tempted someone to sin but where that person never intends to confess their sin.

A reading that God would punish someone for the sins of someone else is inconsistent with His character; it just took some detective work to demonstrate this to be the case, in response to well crafted misinformation that could be created in the minds of people who are aren't familiar with Scripture, which are many, in the context of Christians trying to convince people to enter into the Kingdom of God for their eternal salvation.

“Again, who gave Satan his Powers ? Who allows Satan to use his Powers ? I know you know the answer to this.”

God created Satan as a powerful being, as I'd previously said. Satan then uses his powers as he chooses, but, it is God who is protecting us from how Satan would like to be using his powers for his mission to steal, kill, and destroy (e.g. the description of Job was one illustration of such in plain text); and, this is clear by what the souls are experiencing in Hell, the environment where Satan is using his powers unchecked by God.

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dshipp17

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#28098  Edited By dshipp17

Luke 12:13-21; 41-48:

And one of the company said unto him, Master, speak to my brother, that he

And one of the company said unto him, Master, speak to my brother, that he divide the inheritance with me.

14 And he said unto him, Man, who made me a judge or a divider over you?

15 And he said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth.

16 And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:

17 And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits?

18 And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods.

19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.

20 But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?

21 So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.

Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?

42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?

43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.

45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

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