Religion… What do you think?

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Daz_GX

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good to those who take it level headed, catastrophic to the fanatics and their surrounding.

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Luke 6:1-16; 39-45:

And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.

2 And certain of the Pharisees said unto them, Why do ye that which is not lawful to do on the sabbath days?

3 And Jesus answering them said, Have ye not read so much as this, what David did, when himself was an hungred, and they which were with him;

4 How he went into the house of God, and did take and eat the shewbread, and gave also to them that were with him; which it is not lawful to eat but for the priests alone?

5 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

6 And it came to pass also on another sabbath, that he entered into the synagogue and taught: and there was a man whose right hand was withered.

7 And the scribes and Pharisees watched him, whether he would heal on the sabbath day; that they might find an accusation against him.

8 But he knew their thoughts, and said to the man which had the withered hand, Rise up, and stand forth in the midst. And he arose and stood forth.

9 Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it?

10 And looking round about upon them all, he said unto the man, Stretch forth thy hand. And he did so: and his hand was restored whole as the other.

11 And they were filled with madness; and communed one with another what they might do to Jesus.

12 And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God.

13 And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;

14 Simon, (whom he also named Peter,) and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew,

15 Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called Zelotes,

16 And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor.

And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?

40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

41 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

42 Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.

43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

44 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.

45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

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jonjizz

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#28003  Edited By jonjizz
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just_sayin

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But you love to make fun of us religious people

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How did you know I wear kilts?

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just_sayin

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I am curious as to why The Almighty has allowed so many different aspects of belief about himself to persist in the Earth ? What is the point to want to have the world know and love you for who you are when there are so many different variations to the matter ? I mean if Islam is true, then everyone else is doomed for not respect The Almighty's Prophet Muhammad and honoring the full teachings of what would be. If Chrisitianity is true, then everyone else is doomed for not really respecting and believing in Yeshua / Jesus. If Jewish Theology is true, then everyone else is doomed for Blasphemy or lack their of in belief in GOD as both Yeshua and Muhammad would not be the proposed Messiah and those whom do believe in them would be lifting them up as almost GODs. Then you have Buddhism, Hinduism, not as familiar with those religious systems but what if they are the right ones and everything else is Bullcrap ?

How the Heck did The Almighty allow all this to be if he really wants us to know who he really is ? I mean cause all this can not be correct at the same time... IMO at least.

Great question. Now the fact that there are many religions does not disprove the idea of God in the least. Since your question is on why would God permit so many, rather than which is right, I'll keep my response focused.

So let's reason this out. What exactly would it take for God to ensure that there was only one religion? Here are some things that are alleged to have happened that didn't prevent many religions:

1) God's voice being heard from heaven by the people (Judaism, Christianity, Islam (repeat for each point))

2) God speaking through writers in construction of a Holy book

3) God sending angelic messengers who speak to people

4) God bringing judgment on people for violating his rules

5) God performing miracles to show that he is more powerful than what others believe are gods.

6) Prophetic words coming true years or centuries later.

7) Performing miracles to demonstrate his power like raising the dead, healing the blind, calming the sea, multiplying loaves and fishes

8) Predicting his death and rising from the dead

9) Ascending up into heaven with witnesses present

10) Leaving evidence of his creation that seems implausible to be explained by chance

So, if these weren't enough, what would be? I assume it would have to be a globally broadcast message that everyone heard all at once. But it would have to be worked out ahead of time so people wouldn't just assume that the Russians or space aliens were behind it. Whatever He said would have to be repeated often so that future generations would see for themselves and his presence would have to be constantly visible to us to get rid of the idea of our "privacy" from God to do something behind his back without him seeing.. Whatever he said publicly would have to be agreeable to everyone so that others would not twist the message or create a religion that was more to their own liking, or God would need to swiftly destroy sinners. There would have to be swift punishment for wrong doing so that people would not start down that road and deceive themselves or others. So essentially there would need to be a world where faith was not necessary - because God would be obviously evident to everyone at all moments. The idea of God as love would have to take a back seat to a God of punishment (since they would constantly see him punishing people in the here and now). People would live in constant fear of God's all seeing presence since we all sin and need to be punished so that our behavior is not followed. Free will would need to be diminished. Surely, God could not allow someone of his or her own free will to create a false religion, under your criteria, so free will would have to go, now that I think about it.

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SpareHeadOne

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@just_sayin:

No time to add the tartan or the bagpipes sorry

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SpareHeadOne

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@jonjizz: Said in distant past

about information: you said it's a concept/entity separate from its medium(energy/matter), but the concept of "information" is a human construct which doesn't really exists in the physical world, it's not real

I would say information is separate but reliant on physical material or energy.

Flashfyr agreed with me that information is also an animal construct which functions regardless of being a concept or not, we talked about echo location in whales.

I say that there are systems in biological organisms which at their base rely on information transfer for them to operate.

I say that information is real and functioning in the material world regardless of the human concept of information.

We identify information in action. we see what it does and how it effects the material world.

I would say that concepts are physical according to your worldview and are therefore real accordingly.

@jonjizz: Said yesterday

concepts and thoughts exists physically in our brain too, although obviously they're not part of the external reality

thoughts and concepts are real in your head only... they're not part of the external reality

You are having thoughts and concepts which are physical in your brain and which are part of my external reality. They are effecting my physical world.

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just_sayin

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@spareheadone: I have nothing of value to add to your information/material world debate other than to observe that this is a big cosmological/quantum issue that Stephen Hawkins spent a lot of time on. Its often called the black hole information paradox. Does "information" exist apart from its material or is it part of it and can the information be lost. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole_information_paradox

I know that has little to nothing to do with your discussion, but I wanted to feel like I was contributing.

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SpareHeadOne

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#28009  Edited By SpareHeadOne

@just_sayin:

Thanks a lot.

I think I've heard of this in a Paul Davies lecture.

I would still be interested in your opinions or just thoughts on the subject.

When we consider God to be Spirit, could Spirit be an ultimate kind of Energy that maintains Information?

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jonjizz

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#28010  Edited By jonjizz

@spareheadone: and how exactly is that supposed to be my "dumbness"? what i said is perfectly correct...

concepts and thoughts exist physically in our brain too, although obviously they're not part of the external reality so they're usually omitted out of convenience

information still doesn't exist in the physical word/external reality, once again, it's just a concept that exists exclusively inside your brain.

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you think you can do it, champ?

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SpareHeadOne

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@jonjizz:

You quote yourself from a matter of hours ago when I have already congratulated you on its truth. That's dumb.

You quote yourself from a matter of hours ago when I was clearly referring to your past dumbness from months ago. That's dumb.

What is computer code? Is it information? Is it information that causes the computer program to work? Does it work outside of the human brain? Does it work without information?

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jonjizz

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#28012  Edited By jonjizz

@spareheadone: tell me, what was my past "dumbness" again?

let's see if you can make the connection... you said something, i replied to it... connect! you're almost there, kiddo!

computer code is something physical, existing regardless of its intended function, just like dna; in truth there's no ethereal entity called information which "causes" (your word) things work... that's all just physical matter arranged in a specific way which happens to be beneficial to us, nothing more.

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SarahPopkins

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@sarahpopkins: that's hilarious! at first i even thought it was some kind of parody... poor women lol

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@jonjizz: pastor Steven Anderson is my husband. I'm very happy to be his submissive waifu.

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King Saturn

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@king_saturn said:

I am curious as to why The Almighty has allowed so many different aspects of belief about himself to persist in the Earth ? What is the point to want to have the world know and love you for who you are when there are so many different variations to the matter ? I mean if Islam is true, then everyone else is doomed for not respect The Almighty's Prophet Muhammad and honoring the full teachings of what would be. If Chrisitianity is true, then everyone else is doomed for not really respecting and believing in Yeshua / Jesus. If Jewish Theology is true, then everyone else is doomed for Blasphemy or lack their of in belief in GOD as both Yeshua and Muhammad would not be the proposed Messiah and those whom do believe in them would be lifting them up as almost GODs. Then you have Buddhism, Hinduism, not as familiar with those religious systems but what if they are the right ones and everything else is Bullcrap ?

How the Heck did The Almighty allow all this to be if he really wants us to know who he really is ? I mean cause all this can not be correct at the same time... IMO at least.

Great question. Now the fact that there are many religions does not disprove the idea of God in the least. Since your question is on why would God permit so many, rather than which is right, I'll keep my response focused.

So let's reason this out. What exactly would it take for God to ensure that there was only one religion? Here are some things that are alleged to have happened that didn't prevent many religions:

1) God's voice being heard from heaven by the people (Judaism, Christianity, Islam (repeat for each point))

2) God speaking through writers in construction of a Holy book

3) God sending angelic messengers who speak to people

4) God bringing judgment on people for violating his rules

5) God performing miracles to show that he is more powerful than what others believe are gods.

6) Prophetic words coming true years or centuries later.

7) Performing miracles to demonstrate his power like raising the dead, healing the blind, calming the sea, multiplying loaves and fishes

8) Predicting his death and rising from the dead

9) Ascending up into heaven with witnesses present

10) Leaving evidence of his creation that seems implausible to be explained by chance

So, if these weren't enough, what would be? I assume it would have to be a globally broadcast message that everyone heard all at once. But it would have to be worked out ahead of time so people wouldn't just assume that the Russians or space aliens were behind it. Whatever He said would have to be repeated often so that future generations would see for themselves and his presence would have to be constantly visible to us to get rid of the idea of our "privacy" from God to do something behind his back without him seeing.. Whatever he said publicly would have to be agreeable to everyone so that others would not twist the message or create a religion that was more to their own liking, or God would need to swiftly destroy sinners. There would have to be swift punishment for wrong doing so that people would not start down that road and deceive themselves or others. So essentially there would need to be a world where faith was not necessary - because God would be obviously evident to everyone at all moments. The idea of God as love would have to take a back seat to a God of punishment (since they would constantly see him punishing people in the here and now). People would live in constant fear of God's all seeing presence since we all sin and need to be punished so that our behavior is not followed. Free will would need to be diminished. Surely, God could not allow someone of his or her own free will to create a false religion, under your criteria, so free will would have to go, now that I think about it.

The things that would prevent their being so many Religions would probably be GOD dealing with the whole planet in Real Time and stopping other faiths from existing via his own Divine Power. If we say GOD can do anything, then he should be able to prevent other faiths from existing, if he wanted to.

Your 10 points are things that GOD supposedly did in the past and was documented but what do we have of GOD doing in Real Time, like right now in these days ?

You do a lot of assuming here, I mean if GOD wanted everyone to know he existed and have one religion why does he have to be some GOD of punishment and not a GOD of love ? So GOD is no longer Omnipotent ? GOD can not find a way to still be a loving GOD yet have everyone know that he exists as a GOD of mercy and love ? I am reminded of a verse in Jeremiah 32:27 where it says "Behold, I am the LORD, the GOD of all mankind. Is anything too hard for me". Well, I guess it's too hard for GOD to create a reality where everyone exists and knows GOD as a loving and merciful creator ? Well, technically free will is an illusion anyways if GOD knows everything. I mean GOD could simply know that someone will try to create a new religion beforehand and poof the idea out of their mind ? Nothing too hard for The Almighty right ?

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SpareHeadOne

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@jonjizz:

Logic doesn't exist in the physical word/external reality, once again, it's just a concept that exists exclusively inside your brain.

There's no ethereal entity called logic which "causes" (your word) things to make sense... that's all just physical matter arranged in a specific way which happens to be beneficial to us, nothing more.

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jonjizz

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#28018  Edited By jonjizz

@spareheadone: indeed! you start to understand: logic too only really exists inside brains, and of course, it differs from person to person... my logic is most likely far superior to your logic, for instance.

a good logic represents our understanding of the fundamental truths of the world around us, and is expressed through strict and meticulous reasoning.

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SpareHeadOne

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@jonjizz:

"good" "logic" "understanding" "fundamental" "truths" "strict" "reasoning" are just arrangements of matter in your brain. They don't exist in the external world.

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just_sayin

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The things that would prevent their being so many Religions would probably be GOD dealing with the whole planet in Real Time and stopping other faiths from existing via his own Divine Power. If we say GOD can do anything, then he should be able to prevent other faiths from existing, if he wanted to.

I guess your observation about Lucifer contradicts this. Since, He would have known in "real time" that what he was doing was contrary to God's Will. In a sense, he was "establishing" his own religion by seeking worship from others. I would have to assume, that if the account is true, then knowledge of God's will does not ensure obedience to it.

The story of Lucifer also suggests an issue we have discussed before - free will. If Lucifer who inhabited the "throne room" of God could pursue his own worship apart from God, then God would have to take away our free will, else we could follow Lucifer's path and choose for ourselves who we would worship. Free will seems to be very important to the presentation of God's plan as expressed by the Holy books.

Your 10 points are things that GOD supposedly did in the past and was documented but what do we have of GOD doing in Real Time, like right now in these days ?

What counts as real time? I know a girl who lost her hearing and eyesight when she had a brain tumor when she was 8. The doctors at Duke shot a laser through her eye to treat the tumor and she lost the use of the eye. The aggressive tumor damaged the bone(s) around her ear and she was deaf in the one ear. At a evangelistic service she told her mom she could see and hear. I was sitting beside her when she said this to her mom. The mom did not believe her, who would. So she took her back to Duke when she would not stop saying she could see out of the eye that the cornea had been burned out.. The doctors confirmed that she was now seeing in her right eye and that the bone(s) in her ear had grown back. The Raleigh-Durham news station did a segment on her story - but I haven't found it on youtube and validated that she was blind and deaf and could now see and hear.

I can tell you she was not expected to live. She had just returned from a make-a-wish camp for terminally ill children. I saw the news item that was on a series entitled "Faith and Miracles" and her doctor's did say it was beyond their medical comprehension how her cornea had healed from the damage. She is still alive now and that was in the 90's.

Now she does still have issues from the tumor though - her jaw bone was damaged from the tumor and treatment and she is raising money for a surgery for that.

I took some classes with a guy who carried around two sets of x-rays one with crushed bones and detached muscles and the one after his "healing". I can't confirm his story though. His before x-ray was pretty gruesome and it didn't look like anyone could walk again with that damage - but I'm not a medical doctor.

I don't expect this to persuade you. I know if it were reversed I'd be skeptical. For "real time" video evidence have you checked out Lee Strobel's book on miracles for examples?

You do a lot of assuming here, I mean if GOD wanted everyone to know he existed and have one religion why does he have to be some GOD of punishment and not a GOD of love ? So GOD is no longer Omnipotent ? GOD can not find a way to still be a loving GOD yet have everyone know that he exists as a GOD of mercy and love ? I am reminded of a verse in Jeremiah 32:27 where it says "Behold, I am the LORD, the GOD of all mankind. Is anything too hard for me". Well, I guess it's too hard for GOD to create a reality where everyone exists and knows GOD as a loving and merciful creator ? Well, technically free will is an illusion anyways if GOD knows everything. I mean GOD could simply know that someone will try to create a new religion beforehand and poof the idea out of their mind ? Nothing too hard for The Almighty right ?

If God wanted to keep purity and keep people from sinning, He would have to punish them right? It seems public punishment would be a huge deterrent. I think it would affect the type of relationship He would have with people though. It would be hard to see God as loving if He was punishing people instantly and publicly.

If people were motivated by fear in how they respond to God, how would faith and love be altered.

Free will an illusion??? You sound like Sam Harris. I think the theological explanation goes that God's foreknowledge is not causative. He exists outside of space-time and can therefore see the full expanse of time. Knowledge of how you will act does not necessarily indicate you are not responsible for your own actions and decisions. If that were really true, it seems silly for you to be worrying about why there are multiple religions since what you do and think is meaningless. If all is meaningless, why don't you just fulfill God's will and die already? I'm joking, but pointing out that you don't live your life believing that you have no say in what you do. You live your life as those you believe your choices do have an affect on the outcomes you experience.

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@jonjizz: Dumbly Said (in the distant past before he learnt from me that concepts are real according to his own worldview).........

"""@spareheadone: lol can't believe this, "concepts are real" ?!?!? concepts themselves aren't real, they are abstract thoughts you create in your mind, as you well know... they're as real as flying pigs! which are also a concept."""

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jonjizz

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@jonjizz: Dumbly Said (in the distant past before he learnt from me that concepts are real according to his own worldview).........

"""@spareheadone: lol can't believe this, "concepts are real" ?!?!? concepts themselves aren't real, they are abstract thoughts you create in your mind, as you well know... they're as real as flying pigs! which are also a concept."""

my turn:

concepts and thoughts exist physically in our brain too, although obviously they're not part of the external reality so they're usually omitted out of convenience

...

so they're usually omitted out of convenience

...

they're usually omitted out of convenience

...

usually omitted out of convenience

...

omitted out of convenience

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dshipp17

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Luke 7:11-18:

And it came to pass the day after, that he went into a city called Nain; and many of his disciples went with him, and much people.

12 Now when he came nigh to the gate of the city, behold, there was a dead man carried out, the only son of his mother, and she was a widow: and much people of the city was with her.

13 And when the Lord saw her, he had compassion on her, and said unto her, Weep not.

14 And he came and touched the bier: and they that bare him stood still. And he said, Young man, I say unto thee, Arise.

15 And he that was dead sat up, and began to speak. And he delivered him to his mother.

16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.

17 And this rumour of him went forth throughout all Judaea, and throughout all the region round about.

18 And the disciples of John shewed him of all these things.

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SpareHeadOne

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@jonjizz: said,,,

"""concepts and thoughts exist physically in our brain too,"""

I agree with you best buddy.

"""although obviously they're not part of the external reality"""

I disagree with you. You disgustingly moronic freak. As I said earlier, your physical thoughts and concepts are in your brain and are in my external reality. Just as my physical thoughts and concepts are in your external reality.

"""so they're usually omitted out of convenience"""

I can go along with that for now my good old chum.

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King Saturn

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@king_saturn said:

The things that would prevent their being so many Religions would probably be GOD dealing with the whole planet in Real Time and stopping other faiths from existing via his own Divine Power. If we say GOD can do anything, then he should be able to prevent other faiths from existing, if he wanted to.

I guess your observation about Lucifer contradicts this. Since, He would have known in "real time" that what he was doing was contrary to God's Will. In a sense, he was "establishing" his own religion by seeking worship from others. I would have to assume, that if the account is true, then knowledge of God's will does not ensure obedience to it.

The story of Lucifer also suggests an issue we have discussed before - free will. If Lucifer who inhabited the "throne room" of God could pursue his own worship apart from God, then God would have to take away our free will, else we could follow Lucifer's path and choose for ourselves who we would worship. Free will seems to be very important to the presentation of God's plan as expressed by the Holy books.

Your 10 points are things that GOD supposedly did in the past and was documented but what do we have of GOD doing in Real Time, like right now in these days ?

What counts as real time? I know a girl who lost her hearing and eyesight when she had a brain tumor when she was 8. The doctors at Duke shot a laser through her eye to treat the tumor and she lost the use of the eye. The aggressive tumor damaged the bone(s) around her ear and she was deaf in the one ear. At a evangelistic service she told her mom she could see and hear. I was sitting beside her when she said this to her mom. The mom did not believe her, who would. So she took her back to Duke when she would not stop saying she could see out of the eye that the cornea had been burned out.. The doctors confirmed that she was now seeing in her right eye and that the bone(s) in her ear had grown back. The Raleigh-Durham news station did a segment on her story - but I haven't found it on youtube and validated that she was blind and deaf and could now see and hear.

I can tell you she was not expected to live. She had just returned from a make-a-wish camp for terminally ill children. I saw the news item that was on a series entitled "Faith and Miracles" and her doctor's did say it was beyond their medical comprehension how her cornea had healed from the damage. She is still alive now and that was in the 90's.

Now she does still have issues from the tumor though - her jaw bone was damaged from the tumor and treatment and she is raising money for a surgery for that.

I took some classes with a guy who carried around two sets of x-rays one with crushed bones and detached muscles and the one after his "healing". I can't confirm his story though. His before x-ray was pretty gruesome and it didn't look like anyone could walk again with that damage - but I'm not a medical doctor.

I don't expect this to persuade you. I know if it were reversed I'd be skeptical. For "real time" video evidence have you checked out Lee Strobel's book on miracles for examples?

You do a lot of assuming here, I mean if GOD wanted everyone to know he existed and have one religion why does he have to be some GOD of punishment and not a GOD of love ? So GOD is no longer Omnipotent ? GOD can not find a way to still be a loving GOD yet have everyone know that he exists as a GOD of mercy and love ? I am reminded of a verse in Jeremiah 32:27 where it says "Behold, I am the LORD, the GOD of all mankind. Is anything too hard for me". Well, I guess it's too hard for GOD to create a reality where everyone exists and knows GOD as a loving and merciful creator ? Well, technically free will is an illusion anyways if GOD knows everything. I mean GOD could simply know that someone will try to create a new religion beforehand and poof the idea out of their mind ? Nothing too hard for The Almighty right ?

If God wanted to keep purity and keep people from sinning, He would have to punish them right? It seems public punishment would be a huge deterrent. I think it would affect the type of relationship He would have with people though. It would be hard to see God as loving if He was punishing people instantly and publicly.

If people were motivated by fear in how they respond to God, how would faith and love be altered.

Free will an illusion??? You sound like Sam Harris. I think the theological explanation goes that God's foreknowledge is not causative. He exists outside of space-time and can therefore see the full expanse of time. Knowledge of how you will act does not necessarily indicate you are not responsible for your own actions and decisions. If that were really true, it seems silly for you to be worrying about why there are multiple religions since what you do and think is meaningless. If all is meaningless, why don't you just fulfill God's will and die already? I'm joking, but pointing out that you don't live your life believing that you have no say in what you do. You live your life as those you believe your choices do have an affect on the outcomes you experience.

1. The existence of Lucifer in no ways contradict what I said. I stated that GOD could prevent other religions from existing if he wanted to. Clearly, GOD was willing to allow Satan to rebel against him and take other Fallen Angels with him while they was in Heaven. The thing is, GOD could have stopped Satan from even thinking to rebel against him if GOD wanted to. Free Will seems to be important because we seem to think we have Free Will. In reality we are only playing out decisions that GOD knows we already will do, hence leaving our Free Will somewhat nullified.

2. I was going for what do we have documented of GOD actually performing the Supernatural in Real Time say in recordings for us to see and examine The Almighty's Power in Real Time. Stories and Testimonies of GOD healing people is Great and all but it's not quite as impressive as having live footage of something Supernatural happening.

3. Technically GOD could take the thoughts to even Sin out of your Mind if he wanted to. That would nullify punishment. I would think GOD could even create people with a mind bent on only doing what he desires of him freely if GOD is truly Omnipotent. This idea that GOD would have to create people with the thoughts to Sin as an immediate option always bothered me as multiple times in the Bible we have GOD saying nothing is Impossible to him or asking is anything too hard for him. I mean how is it possible that GOD can create and be over all things and not be able to make people who would freely do what he wants them too ?

4. People don't have to be motivated by Fear from GOD. GOD can do anything so he could make it so that we understand him as a Loving and Merciful Being while our nature would be bent to do the things he would want us to do. He would not have to punish anyone. Is Jeremiah 32:27 wrong ? Are these things I speak too hard for the one whom created the universe and all things that persist in it to do ?

5. Free Will is an Illusion. The so called Free Will we have is only the decisions that GOD already knows what we will do. Well, if GOD already knows what you will do before you do it, can you do anything other than what GOD knows you will do ?

What I do and think is not meaningless to me even if GOD knows what I will do beforehand. I do not know the full extent of what entails my life even if GOD does. So I continue to play the game of Life because it's still Amazing regardless of whether GOD knows my every action or not.

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#28026  Edited By just_sayin

1. The existence of Lucifer in no ways contradict what I said. I stated that GOD could prevent other religions from existing if he wanted to. Clearly, GOD was willing to allow Satan to rebel against him and take other Fallen Angels with him while they was in Heaven. The thing is, GOD could have stopped Satan from even thinking to rebel against him if GOD wanted to. Free Will seems to be important because we seem to think we have Free Will. In reality we are only playing out decisions that GOD knows we already will do, hence leaving our Free Will somewhat nullified.

I would agree free will is important. Without free will, love isn't really love is it? Since religions are just deviations of belief if free will exists there will be differences of opinion and thought - like those Lucifer demonstrated. Rationally it seems to me to keep religion "pure" means you have to get rid of free will.

2. I was going for what do we have documented of GOD actually performing the Supernatural in Real Time say in recordings for us to see and examine The Almighty's Power in Real Time. Stories and Testimonies of GOD healing people is Great and all but it's not quite as impressive as having live footage of something Supernatural happening.

I saw your discussion with dshipp17. I think if you can verify the before and after states of a miracle report then it's just as legitimate as a video. I doubt many would become believers in miracles with a video anyway. There would be questions to its authenticity, to the motive of the one who made the video. There would be searching for an alternative explanation. There would still need to be verified proof of the before and after states of a miracle. A visual account of the moment of a miracle would be great - but would still be insufficient evidence in and of itself for most people.

3. Technically GOD could take the thoughts to even Sin out of your Mind if he wanted to. That would nullify punishment. I would think GOD could even create people with a mind bent on only doing what he desires of him freely if GOD is truly Omnipotent. This idea that GOD would have to create people with the thoughts to Sin as an immediate option always bothered me as multiple times in the Bible we have GOD saying nothing is Impossible to him or asking is anything too hard for him. I mean how is it possible that GOD can create and be over all things and not be able to make people who would freely do what he wants them too ?

What someone, even God, can do, and what he chooses to do are two different thing. The possibility of the first does not negate the reality of the second. I think we are starting to talk free will again. I believe free will is necessary for real and meaningful love to exist. If "love" is just a response that is not offered freely, it doesn't seem as meaningful to me. Free will carries with it the risk of someone rejecting you. Someone could argue that the risk of sin is too great to permit true love from being expressed. It could just as easily be argued that love is the highest good and to eliminate it would be a far worse world to live in.

4. People don't have to be motivated by Fear from GOD. GOD can do anything so he could make it so that we understand him as a Loving and Merciful Being while our nature would be bent to do the things he would want us to do. He would not have to punish anyone. Is Jeremiah 32:27 wrong ? Are these things I speak too hard for the one whom created the universe and all things that persist in it to do ?

A criticism of the Bible you have made in this forum is that God punishes people a lot - especially in the old Testament. It is very hard to balance "loving" and also being "just" in my experience, I'm sure God does a better job at it. I don't think love and justice are necessarily contradictory. However, just actions done in love can be perceived as cruel and vindictive by others and they can react in fear. Free will means people's thoughts go where they want them to go. If we say someone has free will, but they can't really exercise it it's like saying someone is the richest guy in the world but he can't spend a cent of it.

5. Free Will is an Illusion. The so called Free Will we have is only the decisions that GOD already knows what we will do. Well, if GOD already knows what you will do before you do it, can you do anything other than what GOD knows you will do ?

I can't do anything that God doesn't already know that I will do. However, that doesn't mean he made me do what I did.

I've always that of God's omniscience in a more comforting manner. I know He knows my darkest secrets, but I also know that no matter how far away I've wondered from the path He would have preferred me to take, he can navigate me back to where wants me to be.

What I do and think is not meaningless to me even if GOD knows what I will do beforehand. I do not know the full extent of what entails my life even if GOD does. So I continue to play the game of Life because it's still Amazing regardless of whether GOD knows my every action or not.

Well keep playing. Its my observation that those that keep playing are much more likely to win.

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God still doesn't exist.

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@king_saturn said:

1. The existence of Lucifer in no ways contradict what I said. I stated that GOD could prevent other religions from existing if he wanted to. Clearly, GOD was willing to allow Satan to rebel against him and take other Fallen Angels with him while they was in Heaven. The thing is, GOD could have stopped Satan from even thinking to rebel against him if GOD wanted to. Free Will seems to be important because we seem to think we have Free Will. In reality we are only playing out decisions that GOD knows we already will do, hence leaving our Free Will somewhat nullified.

I would agree free will is important. Without free will, love isn't really love is it? Since religions are just deviations of belief if free will exists there will be differences of opinion and thought - like those Lucifer demonstrated. Rationally it seems to me to keep religion "pure" means you have to get rid of free will.

2. I was going for what do we have documented of GOD actually performing the Supernatural in Real Time say in recordings for us to see and examine The Almighty's Power in Real Time. Stories and Testimonies of GOD healing people is Great and all but it's not quite as impressive as having live footage of something Supernatural happening.

I saw your discussion with dshipp17. I think if you can verify the before and after states of a miracle report then it's just as legitimate as a video. I doubt many would become believers in miracles with a video anyway. There would be questions to its authenticity, to the motive of the one who made the video. There would be searching for an alternative explanation. There would still need to be verified proof of the before and after states of a miracle. A visual account of the moment of a miracle would be great - but would still be insufficient evidence in and of itself for most people.

3. Technically GOD could take the thoughts to even Sin out of your Mind if he wanted to. That would nullify punishment. I would think GOD could even create people with a mind bent on only doing what he desires of him freely if GOD is truly Omnipotent. This idea that GOD would have to create people with the thoughts to Sin as an immediate option always bothered me as multiple times in the Bible we have GOD saying nothing is Impossible to him or asking is anything too hard for him. I mean how is it possible that GOD can create and be over all things and not be able to make people who would freely do what he wants them too ?

What someone, even God, can do, and what he chooses to do are two different thing. The possibility of the first does not negate the reality of the second. I think we are starting to talk free will again. I believe free will is necessary for real and meaningful love to exist. If "love" is just a response that is not offered freely, it doesn't seem as meaningful to me. Free will carries with it the risk of someone rejecting you. Someone could argue that the risk of sin is too great to permit true love from being expressed. It could just as easily be argued that love is the highest good and to eliminate it would be a far worse world to live in.

4. People don't have to be motivated by Fear from GOD. GOD can do anything so he could make it so that we understand him as a Loving and Merciful Being while our nature would be bent to do the things he would want us to do. He would not have to punish anyone. Is Jeremiah 32:27 wrong ? Are these things I speak too hard for the one whom created the universe and all things that persist in it to do ?

A criticism of the Bible you have made in this forum is that God punishes people a lot - especially in the old Testament. It is very hard to balance "loving" and also being "just" in my experience, I'm sure God does a better job at it. I don't think love and justice are necessarily contradictory. However, just actions done in love can be perceived as cruel and vindictive by others and they can react in fear. Free will means people's thoughts go where they want them to go. If we say someone has free will, but they can't really exercise it it's like saying someone is the richest guy in the world but he can't spend a cent of it.

5. Free Will is an Illusion. The so called Free Will we have is only the decisions that GOD already knows what we will do. Well, if GOD already knows what you will do before you do it, can you do anything other than what GOD knows you will do ?

I can't do anything that God doesn't already know that I will do. However, that doesn't mean he made me do what I did.

I've always that of God's omniscience in a more comforting manner. I know He knows my darkest secrets, but I also know that no matter how far away I've wondered from the path He would have preferred me to take, he can navigate me back to where wants me to be.

What I do and think is not meaningless to me even if GOD knows what I will do beforehand. I do not know the full extent of what entails my life even if GOD does. So I continue to play the game of Life because it's still Amazing regardless of whether GOD knows my every action or not.

Well keep playing. Its my observation that those that keep playing are much more likely to win.

1. If GOD knows who will love him before he actually makes him, Is it real Love though ? I mean for GOD to know, that I will create David and know he will Love me takes away from real genuine Love that GOD is looking for does it not ? Especially since GOD knows that David will love him and more importantly why David will love him before he even creates him. Free Will from GOD's vantage is nullified. GOD can do anything he chooses to accomplish the task of having no other religions other than his own true one. In reality, I think GOD does not want to accomplish this task, at least not yet.

2. I said specifically that you would need real time event recorded of GOD actually healing someone on Tape through prayers in the dshipp discussion. Not just before and after stuff. Watching someone have their limb restored on Tape while someone prays to GOD for them would be incredible footage and evidence.

3. That is Correct. The fact still remains GOD could accomplish having people Love him and not having to punish them for Sin. I think GOD's Omniscience and his attribute of existing outside of Time and Space makes it impossible for anyone to truly freely love him as GOD knows who will Love him before he creates them and he knows why you will love or reject him. That's different than Humans as we can experience Love freely as well as Rejection. I don't think GOD can. Free Will remains an illusion.

4. That's the thing, I don't think GOD has to balance Love and being Just. GOD creates the rules for Reality itself, so if GOD wanted to be seen as solely a Merciful and Loving deity who does not punish so harshly and so much, he could because he makes the Rules to Reality to do so. Again, I think to GOD Free Will is indeed illusion. The rich guy analogy does not work because even if to GOD Free Will is nullified to Humans we don't know what exactly will happen. Humans will do and think they are Freely doing things and maybe that's as good as this can be concerning Free Will.

5. You are Correct again. The thing is GOD not causing you to do something does not mean he is still not responsible for your actions. The reason I say this is because if GOD creates you knowing your decisions will lead to bad things, GOD could intervene if he wanted to and alter things can he not ? Does not GOD intervene in peoples lives ? Why can not The Almighty see what you will do and alter it ? This brings up the possibility of GOD seeing multiple possible realities of our lives at once based on our decisions. I am willing to speak on this option as well.

6. True Enough.

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1. If GOD knows who will love him before he actually makes him, Is it real Love though ?

Yep if they were free to not love, then it is.

I mean for GOD to know, that I will create David and know he will Love me takes away from real genuine Love that GOD is looking for does it not ?

No. David could reject you.

Especially since GOD knows that David will love him and more importantly why David will love him before he even creates him. Free Will from GOD's vantage is nullified.

How so? Is God so weak he can not choose to be omniscient but not the cause of our actions and behaviors? It seems odd to me to make the argument that "God could make a world where fill in the blank" but then deny that God could make a world where fill in the blank.

GOD can do anything he chooses to accomplish the task of having no other religions other than his own true one. In reality, I think GOD does not want to accomplish this task, at least not yet.

OK.

2. I said specifically that you would need real time event recorded of GOD actually healing someone on Tape through prayers in the dshipp discussion. Not just before and after stuff. Watching someone have their limb restored on Tape while someone prays to GOD for them would be incredible footage and evidence.

It would be awesome to have video evidence but that in and of itself would not be enough. The real proof is the before and after verification of the change in status. If I saw a video where a guy's arm grows back but there is no evidence that he was missing an arm to start with, is the video credible? Many people could use technology or other deceptive means to stage a miracle. Verification of the status of the person before the miracle event and after seems to be the real core of proof to me.

3. That is Correct. The fact still remains GOD could accomplish having people Love him and not having to punish them for Sin. I think GOD's Omniscience and his attribute of existing outside of Time and Space makes it impossible for anyone to truly freely love him as GOD knows who will Love him before he creates them and he knows why you will love or reject him. That's different than Humans as we can experience Love freely as well as Rejection. I don't think GOD can. Free Will remains an illusion.

God can't hold me accountable for my decisions? It seems cruel and unjust if I am punished for something if my free will to not sin was just an illusion. It seems that major religions that believe that God is just and punishes sin would by necessity have to believe in free will.

4. That's the thing, I don't think GOD has to balance Love and being Just. GOD creates the rules for Reality itself, so if GOD wanted to be seen as solely a Merciful and Loving deity who does not punish so harshly and so much, he could because he makes the Rules to Reality to do so. Again, I think to GOD Free Will is indeed illusion. The rich guy analogy does not work because even if to GOD Free Will is nullified to Humans we don't know what exactly will happen. Humans will do and think they are Freely doing things and maybe that's as good as this can be concerning Free Will.

I have no idea if there are other realities where love and justice work differently. How could I? In this reality, it seems that love and justice are two highly valued concepts. Our construct of a perfect being would need to be both of those. I still am not convinced that you could have a loving world without free will. If I can not make the choice myself the love seems forced and not voluntary. If free will exists, it seems logical that at times someone will choose to do something against the will of God. If there is no penalty for wrong doing, could we really call God "just"?

5. You are Correct again. The thing is GOD not causing you to do something does not mean he is still not responsible for your actions. The reason I say this is because if GOD creates you knowing your decisions will lead to bad things, GOD could intervene if he wanted to and alter things can he not ? Does not GOD intervene in peoples lives ? Why can not The Almighty see what you will do and alter it ? This brings up the possibility of GOD seeing multiple possible realities of our lives at once based on our decisions. I am willing to speak on this option as well.

No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it. - 1 Corinthians 10:13 NIV

If you believe the Bible, it would seem that it is the case that God does provide options.

I've never been much for the myriad implications revolving around God's perfect vs God's permissive will discussion. To me, God doesn't have a plan B. Why would he need one? I might need a plan B, C, D, E, F, etc., but God doesn't.

6. True Enough.

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#28030  Edited By SpareHeadOne

Luc 19

11 While they were listening to these things, Jesus went on to tell a parable, because He was near Jerusalem, and they supposed that the kingdom of God was going to appear immediately. 12 So He said, “A nobleman went to a distant country to receive a kingdom for himself, and then return. 13 And he called ten of his slaves, and gave them 10 Feelings of Free Will and said to them, ‘Do business with this until I come back.’ 14 But his citizens hated him and sent a delegation after him, saying, ‘We do not want this man to reign over us.’ 15 When he returned, after receiving the kingdom, he ordered that these slaves, to whom he had given the Free Will, be called to him so that he might know what business they had done. 16 The first appeared, saying, "Master, your Free Will has made ten Free Will Feelings more.’ 17 And he said to him, ‘Well done, good slave, because you have been faithful in a very little thing, you are to be in authority over ten cities.’ 18 The second came, saying, ‘Your Free Will, master, has made five more Free Will Feelings.’ 19 And he said to him also, ‘And you are to be over five cities.’ 20 Another came, saying, ‘Master, here is your Free Will, which I kept put away in a handkerchief; 21 for I was afraid of you, because you are an exacting man; you take up what you did not lay down and reap what you did not sow.’ 22 He *said to him, ‘By your own words I will judge you, you worthless slave. Did you know that I am an exacting man, taking up what I did not lay down and reaping what I did not sow? 23 Then why did you not put my Free Will in the mind bank, and having come, I would have collected it with interest?’ 24 Then he said to the bystanders, ‘Take the Free Will away from him and give it to the one who has the ten Free Will Feelings.’ 25 And they said to him, ‘Master, he has ten Free Will Feelings already.’ 26 I tell you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 27 But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence.”

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I've got a question for someone who believes in an all-knowing and all-powerful God.

I'm an athiest but I go to a Christian church with my grandmother sometimes and I have a question I'm planning to ask next time I'm in the discussion group they have before the sermon and music. I'm going to ask it here so maybe I don't have to ask it there. They don't know I'm an athiest and if they found out I expect they wouldn't want me there judging by some of the things I've heard said in the discussion group. I like learning by sitting in and listening so I tend to just keep my mouth shut and not ask questions. Here's the one I'm wondering about.

According to this church God is all-knowing and that includes knowing what will happen in the future. Everything always goes according to God's plan and there's nothing we can do to change it. If that's true, what's the point of praying to ask for something? If your loved one is in the hospital and you believe in God there seems to me to be no point to me to ask God to save them because you essentially believe in determinism and your prayers shouldn't matter.

If you're just praying to thank God for your blessings and praise him I get that but asking him for things seems silly to me. What's the logic behind it?

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@king_saturn said:

1. If GOD knows who will love him before he actually makes him, Is it real Love though ?

Yep if they were free to not love, then it is.

I mean for GOD to know, that I will create David and know he will Love me takes away from real genuine Love that GOD is looking for does it not ?

No. David could reject you.

Especially since GOD knows that David will love him and more importantly why David will love him before he even creates him. Free Will from GOD's vantage is nullified.

How so? Is God so weak he can not choose to be omniscient but not the cause of our actions and behaviors? It seems odd to me to make the argument that "God could make a world where fill in the blank" but then deny that God could make a world where fill in the blank.

GOD can do anything he chooses to accomplish the task of having no other religions other than his own true one. In reality, I think GOD does not want to accomplish this task, at least not yet.

OK.

2. I said specifically that you would need real time event recorded of GOD actually healing someone on Tape through prayers in the dshipp discussion. Not just before and after stuff. Watching someone have their limb restored on Tape while someone prays to GOD for them would be incredible footage and evidence.

It would be awesome to have video evidence but that in and of itself would not be enough. The real proof is the before and after verification of the change in status. If I saw a video where a guy's arm grows back but there is no evidence that he was missing an arm to start with, is the video credible? Many people could use technology or other deceptive means to stage a miracle. Verification of the status of the person before the miracle event and after seems to be the real core of proof to me.

3. That is Correct. The fact still remains GOD could accomplish having people Love him and not having to punish them for Sin. I think GOD's Omniscience and his attribute of existing outside of Time and Space makes it impossible for anyone to truly freely love him as GOD knows who will Love him before he creates them and he knows why you will love or reject him. That's different than Humans as we can experience Love freely as well as Rejection. I don't think GOD can. Free Will remains an illusion.

God can't hold me accountable for my decisions? It seems cruel and unjust if I am punished for something if my free will to not sin was just an illusion. It seems that major religions that believe that God is just and punishes sin would by necessity have to believe in free will.

4. That's the thing, I don't think GOD has to balance Love and being Just. GOD creates the rules for Reality itself, so if GOD wanted to be seen as solely a Merciful and Loving deity who does not punish so harshly and so much, he could because he makes the Rules to Reality to do so. Again, I think to GOD Free Will is indeed illusion. The rich guy analogy does not work because even if to GOD Free Will is nullified to Humans we don't know what exactly will happen. Humans will do and think they are Freely doing things and maybe that's as good as this can be concerning Free Will.

I have no idea if there are other realities where love and justice work differently. How could I? In this reality, it seems that love and justice are two highly valued concepts. Our construct of a perfect being would need to be both of those. I still am not convinced that you could have a loving world without free will. If I can not make the choice myself the love seems forced and not voluntary. If free will exists, it seems logical that at times someone will choose to do something against the will of God. If there is no penalty for wrong doing, could we really call God "just"?

5. You are Correct again. The thing is GOD not causing you to do something does not mean he is still not responsible for your actions. The reason I say this is because if GOD creates you knowing your decisions will lead to bad things, GOD could intervene if he wanted to and alter things can he not ? Does not GOD intervene in peoples lives ? Why can not The Almighty see what you will do and alter it ? This brings up the possibility of GOD seeing multiple possible realities of our lives at once based on our decisions. I am willing to speak on this option as well.

No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it. - 1 Corinthians 10:13 NIV

If you believe the Bible, it would seem that it is the case that God does provide options.

I've never been much for the myriad implications revolving around God's perfect vs God's permissive will discussion. To me, God doesn't have a plan B. Why would he need one? I might need a plan B, C, D, E, F, etc., but God doesn't.

6. True Enough.

1. How can you be free not to love if GOD knows you will Love him ?

2. How could David reject GOD if GOD knows he will Love him ? David can only do what GOD knows he will do.

3. No, I think it's a Matter of GOD being so Powerful he can not have something be Unknown to him. That's why it would be impossible for David to do something that GOD does not already know he will do. I am not denying GOD could make the world however he wanted to. I am saying GOD can not "Not Know" something if he is Omniscient.

4. No, I am saying GOD would not need to hold you accountable for Sin if he can make it so you are bent towards doing what he says in Nature and not to Sin. GOD would not need to punish you if you do what he says and we know that this can be accomplished if GOD is Omnipotent.

5. Like I Said, GOD would not need to punish anyone if GOD creates Humans with a nature bent towards whatever he wants Humans to do. GOD also could alter the punishments for Sins as well. Perhaps instead of Death or some Curse for Sin it could be Tickling in the Feet for 20 minutes or something. Since, GOD makes the Rules he can create situations where Sin would not even be a plausible way of life for us.

6. GOD providing options is not the same as GOD creating you to have a nature bent towards his ways. GOD won't need to give you these options if you are bent towards doing what he says instead of bent towards doing other things. I think GOD does have a Plan B. I mean I don't think GOD had Jesus coming to Earth and dying on a Cross as Plan A simply because it would mean GOD's will was to sabotage Humanity from the Start and that makes little sense unless GOD is Cruel because a lot of other problems came with Adam and Eve's disobedience.

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@gurney88:

You pray as The Spirit leads you to pray not because your own ego or your tradition tells you to pray.

Praying is actually God accomplishing his own will using The Body of His Son.

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#28034  Edited By Iron_Tiger

God still doesn't exist. >;)

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#28035  Edited By dshipp17

@gurney88:

“According to this church God is all-knowing and that includes knowing what will happen in the future. Everything always goes according to God's plan and there's nothing we can do to change it. If that's true, what's the point of praying to ask for something? If your loved one is in the hospital and you believe in God there seems to me to be no point to me to ask God to save them because you essentially believe in determinism and your prayers shouldn't matter.”

This statement sounds like you're young and confused. You should basically start listening to what the preacher is saying with the intent to understand it. Usually, though, this requires you to persevere with the church, as you start to mature. I'll presume that you're a preteen or a teen. When I was in this age range, although I was Christian and serious about it, I took it for granted in a lot of ways. So, since I was Christian and a sincere one, but young, God could still work for me on my behalf. In my situation and for many other young people, what makes it possible to understand and appreciate God is to have Him chastise you and cause some type of hardship or setback to occur in your life to get you to appreciate things better; but, if you never was as sincere as you grandmother thinks, then, something like this may not happen for you, since you just basically said in so many words that you never became a Christian. So, take this precious time to start appreciating your circumstances, make a change, and decide to become a Christian before you become an adult. But, in order to do this, you have to start focusing your attention on what your pastor is saying.

From your description, it's hard to tell what your church doctrine might be. Perhaps, they're called Calvinists; and, if so, this isn't a doctrine that is part of the mainstream church. The mainstream church should be teaching according to John 3:16 or for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believed on Him should have eternal live and not perish; this is the verse that was involved in my youth, but, at the same time, I was always drawn towards God with an intense curiosity to know Him and to be loved or beloved by Him; if you're just the opposite, then, you're another sort; but, you can change; just start paying attention to the church service and what the preacher is teaching.

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Gurney88

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@dshipp17: I'm 20 but you're close enough about my age. My grandmother knows I'm an athiest but she does hope that I'll change which is why she has me go to church. The reason I go to church besides her pretty much forcing me to is because I want to learn more about the bible and Christianity and everything this church teaches comes directly from the bible. I've never lied to any of them and said I was a Christian, I've just been quiet. If they ask if I'm a believer or not I'll tell them but I hope they just continue to let me observe.

I'm really not looking to be converted. I'm just asking a question to see if any Christians have a logical answer for me.

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Iron_Tiger

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#28037  Edited By Iron_Tiger

@gurney88: Not exactly relevant to your question, but something you could look at if you're interested...

Godchecker.com

Nifty site that details Gods and Goddesses in lamen's terms.

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dshipp17

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#28038  Edited By dshipp17

@gurney88 said:

@dshipp17: I'm 20 but you're close enough about my age. My grandmother knows I'm an athiest but she does hope that I'll change which is why she has me go to church. The reason I go to church besides her pretty much forcing me to is because I want to learn more about the bible and Christianity and everything this church teaches comes directly from the bible. I've never lied to any of them and said I was a Christian, I've just been quiet. If they ask if I'm a believer or not I'll tell them but I hope they just continue to let me observe.

I'm really not looking to be converted. I'm just asking a question to see if any Christians have a logical answer for me.

What would an answer to your question(s) have to do with God not existing? Just trying to help you understand what the term atheist means. The reason that you haven't had any personal experiences involving God like your grandmother is because you aren't Christian but she is Christian, so she has a different perspective than you and hopes that something will occur soon that will help change your perspective and save you.

The short answer is that we have free will. While God has a plan, it has spanned centuries; but, the human lifespan is much shorter; and the Bible is geared towards a person's salvation which was substantial shorter than God's plan; God's will is that none should perish. But, if you're saying that you're not looking to be saved from eternal torment and instead to being saved and sent to eternal paradise, then, it's hard to really explain except to say that you need time to mature; time heals all wombs and destroys all egos, also; time helps to adjust and focus peoples' perspectives of things; I heard things similar to this when I was 20, but, having had a lot more time I can say that it's true and there's real wisdom behind that statement.

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@gurney88 said:

I've got a question for someone who believes in an all-knowing and all-powerful God.

I'm an athiest but I go to a Christian church with my grandmother sometimes and I have a question I'm planning to ask next time I'm in the discussion group they have before the sermon and music. I'm going to ask it here so maybe I don't have to ask it there. They don't know I'm an athiest and if they found out I expect they wouldn't want me there judging by some of the things I've heard said in the discussion group. I like learning by sitting in and listening so I tend to just keep my mouth shut and not ask questions. Here's the one I'm wondering about.

According to this church God is all-knowing and that includes knowing what will happen in the future. Everything always goes according to God's plan and there's nothing we can do to change it. If that's true, what's the point of praying to ask for something? If your loved one is in the hospital and you believe in God there seems to me to be no point to me to ask God to save them because you essentially believe in determinism and your prayers shouldn't matter.

If you're just praying to thank God for your blessings and praise him I get that but asking him for things seems silly to me. What's the logic behind it?

From the Judeo-Christian perspective, God stands outside of space-time. He sees past, present, and future. God's knowledge of the future does not alter the fact that you make your own choices. God's foreknowledge of your future is not deterministic. There are some Calvinists (Presbyterians, Baptists) that would disagree, but most Christian groups would say that God's knowledge of the future does not generally keep you from doing whatever you choose to do.

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@king_saturn:

1. How can you be free not to love if GOD knows you will Love him ?

As I understand it, God knows your future, but he does not determine your choices.

2. How could David reject GOD if GOD knows he will Love him ? David can only do what GOD knows he will do.

David has free will. What he chooses will be his future. God stands outside of space-time. He knows what that decision will be but he did not make the decision for David.

3. No, I think it's a Matter of GOD being so Powerful he can not have something be Unknown to him. That's why it would be impossible for David to do something that GOD does not already know he will do. I am not denying GOD could make the world however he wanted to. I am saying GOD can not "Not Know" something if he is Omniscient.

I agree God is understood as omniscient. I am not saying God's knowledge is limited, I am saying that his knowledge of the future does not inhibit your choices. You live your life at one moment at a time, however many cosmologists believe that time can flow forward and backward (Sean Carroll) - think of space-time like a loaf of bread with every moment a slice. God can see the slices way down the line, but he does not alter the bread to see them.

4. No, I am saying GOD would not need to hold you accountable for Sin if he can make it so you are bent towards doing what he says in Nature and not to Sin. GOD would not need to punish you if you do what he says and we know that this can be accomplished if GOD is Omnipotent.

We differ on this. To me, if God gives you free will but you are never allowed to freely do something you want - then you don't have free will. To say God could give you free will but you would not be allowed to use it, is like saying you can go to a theater to see the new Star Wars film as long as you don't go to a theater that is showing the new Star Wars movie.

5. Like I Said, GOD would not need to punish anyone if GOD creates Humans with a nature bent towards whatever he wants Humans to do. GOD also could alter the punishments for Sins as well. Perhaps instead of Death or some Curse for Sin it could be Tickling in the Feet for 20 minutes or something. Since, GOD makes the Rules he can create situations where Sin would not even be a plausible way of life for us.

This is where we will disagree. I think God could make us like an automaton without the ability to have free will, but I think love would be illusory if that was the case.

6. GOD providing options is not the same as GOD creating you to have a nature bent towards his ways. GOD won't need to give you these options if you are bent towards doing what he says instead of bent towards doing other things. I think GOD does have a Plan B. I mean I don't think GOD had Jesus coming to Earth and dying on a Cross as Plan A simply because it would mean GOD's will was to sabotage Humanity from the Start and that makes little sense unless GOD is Cruel because a lot of other problems came with Adam and Eve's disobedience.

Paul said that Jesus is the lamb slain before the foundation of the world. God already had in mind his plan before Adam's fall. If God "bent" Adam to avoid sin, then God would be preventing Adam from exorcising his free will. Again, the risk of free will is someone will exercise free will.

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Luke 9:28-45; 57-62:

And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.

29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.

30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:

31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.

33 And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.

34 While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.

35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.

37 And it came to pass, that on the next day, when they were come down from the hill, much people met him.

38 And, behold, a man of the company cried out, saying, Master, I beseech thee, look upon my son: for he is mine only child.

39 And, lo, a spirit taketh him, and he suddenly crieth out; and it teareth him that he foameth again, and bruising him hardly departeth from him.

40 And I besought thy disciples to cast him out; and they could not.

41 And Jesus answering said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you, and suffer you? Bring thy son hither.

42 And as he was yet a coming, the devil threw him down, and tare him. And Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, and healed the child, and delivered him again to his father.

43 And they were all amazed at the mighty power of God. But while they wondered every one at all things which Jesus did, he said unto his disciples,

44 Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men.

45 But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying.

And it came to pass, that, as they went in the way, a certain man said unto him, Lord, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest.

58 And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

59 And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.

60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

61 And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house.

62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

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@dshipp17:

Who are the dead who should bury their own dead? What makes them dead?

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@king_saturn:

1. How can you be free not to love if GOD knows you will Love him ?

As I understand it, God knows your future, but he does not determine your choices.

2. How could David reject GOD if GOD knows he will Love him ? David can only do what GOD knows he will do.

David has free will. What he chooses will be his future. God stands outside of space-time. He knows what that decision will be but he did not make the decision for David.

3. No, I think it's a Matter of GOD being so Powerful he can not have something be Unknown to him. That's why it would be impossible for David to do something that GOD does not already know he will do. I am not denying GOD could make the world however he wanted to. I am saying GOD can not "Not Know" something if he is Omniscient.

I agree God is understood as omniscient. I am not saying God's knowledge is limited, I am saying that his knowledge of the future does not inhibit your choices. You live your life at one moment at a time, however many cosmologists believe that time can flow forward and backward (Sean Carroll) - think of space-time like a loaf of bread with every moment a slice. God can see the slices way down the line, but he does not alter the bread to see them.

4. No, I am saying GOD would not need to hold you accountable for Sin if he can make it so you are bent towards doing what he says in Nature and not to Sin. GOD would not need to punish you if you do what he says and we know that this can be accomplished if GOD is Omnipotent.

We differ on this. To me, if God gives you free will but you are never allowed to freely do something you want - then you don't have free will. To say God could give you free will but you would not be allowed to use it, is like saying you can go to a theater to see the new Star Wars film as long as you don't go to a theater that is showing the new Star Wars movie.

5. Like I Said, GOD would not need to punish anyone if GOD creates Humans with a nature bent towards whatever he wants Humans to do. GOD also could alter the punishments for Sins as well. Perhaps instead of Death or some Curse for Sin it could be Tickling in the Feet for 20 minutes or something. Since, GOD makes the Rules he can create situations where Sin would not even be a plausible way of life for us.

This is where we will disagree. I think God could make us like an automaton without the ability to have free will, but I think love would be illusory if that was the case.

6. GOD providing options is not the same as GOD creating you to have a nature bent towards his ways. GOD won't need to give you these options if you are bent towards doing what he says instead of bent towards doing other things. I think GOD does have a Plan B. I mean I don't think GOD had Jesus coming to Earth and dying on a Cross as Plan A simply because it would mean GOD's will was to sabotage Humanity from the Start and that makes little sense unless GOD is Cruel because a lot of other problems came with Adam and Eve's disobedience.

Paul said that Jesus is the lamb slain before the foundation of the world. God already had in mind his plan before Adam's fall. If God "bent" Adam to avoid sin, then God would be preventing Adam from exorcising his free will. Again, the risk of free will is someone will exercise free will.

1. If GOD knows you Future, then your Choice is already Determined regardless if you know it or not.

2. If GOD knows what David will do before he does it, then David can not choose anything other than what GOD already knows. Free Will is an illusion.

3. GOD's knowledge does inhibit your choices because you can not choose to do anything other than what GOD knows you will choose. Hence, you can not freely love GOD as GOD knows if you will Love him or not before he creates you.

4. Who says you can not have the illusion of Free Will and have a nature bent to do things that GOD wants you to do ? Just because you can not believe it makes it impossible for GOD to make it so ?

5. We are already automation if GOD is Omniscient. Your choices are based on what GOD already knows of what you will do. Hence, your freedom is nullified. It just feels like Freedom because from the Human perspective we don't know all things like GOD does supposedly.

6. Then Paul just killed your argument. If Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world, then GOD set up Humanity to fail at the point he created him, hence the concept of Jesus being slain before the world began. GOD knew Adam would sin and essentially Adam had no way around it either if Paul saying is correct. Adam had no free will if Jesus was proposed to come before the world begins, it essentially means Adam has to Sin to cause this to be.

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1. If GOD knows you Future, then your Choice is already Determined regardless if you know it or not.

2. If GOD knows what David will do before he does it, then David can not choose anything other than what GOD already knows. Free Will is an illusion.

3. GOD's knowledge does inhibit your choices because you can not choose to do anything other than what GOD knows you will choose. Hence, you can not freely love GOD as GOD knows if you will Love him or not before he creates you.

4. Who says you can not have the illusion of Free Will and have a nature bent to do things that GOD wants you to do ? Just because you can not believe it makes it impossible for GOD to make it so ?

5. We are already automation if GOD is Omniscient. Your choices are based on what GOD already knows of what you will do. Hence, your freedom is nullified. It just feels like Freedom because from the Human perspective we don't know all things like GOD does supposedly.

6. Then Paul just killed your argument. If Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world, then GOD set up Humanity to fail at the point he created him, hence the concept of Jesus being slain before the world began. GOD knew Adam would sin and essentially Adam had no way around it either if Paul saying is correct. Adam had no free will if Jesus was proposed to come before the world begins, it essentially means Adam has to Sin to cause this to be.

I must assume that you understand the argument made by many theologians that God's knowledge of the future is not causative. You may disagree but I think you get what they are saying, so I won't spend much time repeating it. Instead, I want to point out the logical inconsistencies in your posts on this thread.

If free will is illusory, and you can only do what God has foreordained that you do, then you are not morally responsible for what you do because God had determined for you what you would do. Earlier in our "Is God a Moral Monster" discussion over the punishment of Israel during David's reign you said you understood how God could punish someone for what they personally did but that it was immoral to punish the group for what David did. But your logic isn't consistent. If there was no alternative possible for the people, then what God did to them isn't morally wrong. His actions are based on his preferences for them, not their actions, since He has determined those. God's choices then are not a matter of doing to us what we "deserve" but what He wills. It would be the equivalent of a computer programmer having one of his characters killed. That is not immoral, but it is his prerogative as the programmer. If you are not a moral agent, then it is wrong to speak of you "deserving" or "earning" this from God. You are his creation and whatever He does to you is his prerogative and no more.

You can not claim that God has been unjust to those He punished, because they could not morally make a different choice and He determined their action. They are essentially programmed machines; automatons doing what the creator programmed them to do. To say God is immoral would mean that God is obligated to treat them a certain way. A way determined by their moral choices. But you claim there is no such thing as real moral choices. So they have no legitimate expectation of how God should treat them because they did not make their choices - God did. Even your rage at God is His choice - according to your argument. To say God is immoral for how he programmed you is essentially the same thing as saying that the gender of the number 5 is male or that the shape of the color purple is a triangle. These attributes have no meaning. God has no obligation to you if your conduct is not based on free will. You are just another part of the universe and his interaction with you is like his interaction with a rock.

From a theologian's perspective it is fortunate for you and me, that there is free will and God has chosen to respond in love for us. He did know the choices you would choose and on the basis of his foreknowledge he sent His son to pay the price for your sins. The choice to choose or reject His offer of forgiveness is yours. He already knows what your choice will be, but you alone are responsible for what it will be. If not, then accept that your fate is predetermined and that God is not unjust for whatever preferences he has for your fate. You aren't a moral agent, in your view, therefore, there is no expectation of how the Creator must interact with you.

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I must assume that you understand the argument made by many theologians that God's knowledge of the future is not causative. You may disagree but I think you get what they are saying, so I won't spend much time repeating it. Instead, I want to point out the logical inconsistencies in your posts on this thread.

If free will is illusory, and you can only do what God has foreordained that you do, then you are not morally responsible for what you do because God had determined for you what you would do. Earlier in our "Is God a Moral Monster" discussion over the punishment of Israel during David's reign you said you understood how God could punish someone for what they personally did but that it was immoral to punish the group for what David did. But your logic isn't consistent. If there was no alternative possible for the people, then what God did to them isn't morally wrong. His actions are based on his preferences for them, not their actions, since He has determined those. God's choices then are not a matter of doing to us what we "deserve" but what He wills. It would be the equivalent of a computer programmer having one of his characters killed. That is not immoral, but it is his prerogative as the programmer. If you are not a moral agent, then it is wrong to speak of you "deserving" or "earning" this from God. You are his creation and whatever He does to you is his prerogative and no more.

You can not claim that God has been unjust to those He punished, because they could not morally make a different choice and He determined their action. They are essentially programmed machines; automatons doing what the creator programmed them to do. To say God is immoral would mean that God is obligated to treat them a certain way. A way determined by their moral choices. But you claim there is no such thing as real moral choices. So they have no legitimate expectation of how God should treat them because they did not make their choices - God did. Even your rage at God is His choice - according to your argument. To say God is immoral for how he programmed you is essentially the same thing as saying that the gender of the number 5 is male or that the shape of the color purple is a triangle. These attributes have no meaning. God has no obligation to you if your conduct is not based on free will. You are just another part of the universe and his interaction with you is like his interaction with a rock.

From a theologian's perspective it is fortunate for you and me, that there is free will and God has chosen to respond in love for us. He did know the choices you would choose and on the basis of his foreknowledge he sent His son to pay the price for your sins. The choice to choose or reject His offer of forgiveness is yours. He already knows what your choice will be, but you alone are responsible for what it will be. If not, then accept that your fate is predetermined and that God is not unjust for whatever preferences he has for your fate. You aren't a moral agent, in your view, therefore, there is no expectation of how the Creator must interact with you.

1. I have heard what Theologians have said. I do not believe that point of view at all. I do not see how they can make it stick if GOD is Omniscient and Outside of Space and Time. What can be unknown to GOD then ? Even more, what choices can be made freely if GOD knows what already is to be chosen to do ?

2. That's probably the Case if GOD is Omniscient. Didn't you use Paul saying that Jesus was Slain before the foundation of the world ? How can GOD declare Jesus being slain before the world and yet Adam have choice to obey GOD ? Adam's choice is already made for him beforehand, if Paul's saying is True.

3. Regarding your argument about Morality. GOD's Power can make it so that he can create People to do the things he wants them to do, hence GOD has no reason to punish them. The fact that GOD creates People knowing that they will not do what he wants them to when and here are the key words, GOD does not have to create people that will Sin is what makes him Cruel. Why create beings to Hurt, Kill, Torment them when GOD's nature is supposed to be about Love, Mercy and Peace ? That's what make it Immoral.

4. No, I think you missed it here. GOD can make a morally different choice because he is in control of Reality itself. GOD can create beings however he wants them, hence when GOD creates some people knowing that they will Sin... he could create those same people with a nature bent towards his Heavenly Desires. That's why he is Omnipotent. Jeremiah 32:27 keeps coming back to mind. GOD's nature is supposedly Mercy and Love, so GOD creating beings that he knows will constantly go against his will and nature just to destroy them would be Cruel if GOD does not have to make them that way.

5. Well you believe that, I say Free Will is an illusion. So again, you agree with my point. GOD knew the choices I would choose beforehand and he knew he would need to send his Son to save us ? So I could not choose anything other than what GOD knew I would choose ? Like I said, GOD could have created us different, where our nature was bent towards his own nature and desires. This would prevent a lot of the problems we have. How is GOD not Immoral for creating beings that he would destroy and others that he would save if he has the power to create everyone where he would save all ? That's the epitome of Injustice, to create something where the possibility of fairness does not exist.

I want to speak directly to a specific line, GOD already knows what I will choose, but I alone am responsible for the choice. Do you recall a story in the Bible where Jesus was at the Supper with his Disciples and Peter said he was willing to go to Prison with Jesus and even Die. Then Jesus said to Peter, before the Rooster crows Three times you will deny me. Do you think Peter had a choice not to deny Jesus those Three Times after the Rooster crows ? Also, how is not GOD playing a part in this choice as he is telling you what will happen beforehand ? Can Jesus be wrong ?

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just_sayin

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1. I have heard what Theologians have said. I do not believe that point of view at all. I do not see how they can make it stick if GOD is Omniscient and Outside of Space and Time. What can be unknown to GOD then ? Even more, what choices can be made freely if GOD knows what already is to be chosen to do ?

Nothing can be unknown to God, the question is does God's foreknowledge cause the future or merely identify what will be. It is here we differ in our opinion.

2. That's probably the Case if GOD is Omniscient. Didn't you use Paul saying that Jesus was Slain before the foundation of the world ? How can GOD declare Jesus being slain before the world and yet Adam have choice to obey GOD ? Adam's choice is already made for him beforehand, if Paul's saying is True.

God knew about Adam's sin before he committed it. That much is true. The issue lies in causation. Knowing what will happen and causing it are two distinct things. Is God distinct from his creation? Then he need not be the cause of everything his creation does.

3. Regarding your argument about Morality. GOD's Power can make it so that he can create People to do the things he wants them to do, hence GOD has no reason to punish them. The fact that GOD creates People knowing that they will not do what he wants them to when and here are the key words, GOD does not have to create people that will Sin is what makes him Cruel. Why create beings to Hurt, Kill, Torment them when GOD's nature is supposed to be about Love, Mercy and Peace ? That's what make it Immoral.

If people are not free moral agents and are unable to respond to God in a moral manner, how can He have any moral obligations to them ever? They are like characters programmed in a game. They do as they were programmed to do. If they suffer, God has done nothing to them but what a programmer does to his program - he created it and executed it. There is no "moral" failings regarding killing characters you programmed. The computer simulation has no claim on what actions the programmer must take. God would have to have a moral obligation to them, and without moral agency there can't be such a relationship. We are nothing but pawns on a chess board, to be consistent with your view of no free will. Is it "sin" for you to offer your pawn to the rook or knight? No, it is but your preference. There is no moral obligation to the pawn on behalf of the one who moves the pieces.

Explain further how it is immoral for God to run his program and have his creation carry out its intended purpose. You only have feelings because he created for you to have them. A creator can do with his creation as he wishes. It is only if he enters into a moral contract or agreement with a morally free creation could his actions be considered "moral" to begin with.

4. No, I think you missed it here. GOD can make a morally different choice because he is in control of Reality itself. GOD can create beings however he wants them, hence when GOD creates some people knowing that they will Sin... he could create those same people with a nature bent towards his Heavenly Desires. That's why he is Omnipotent. Jeremiah 32:27 keeps coming back to mind. GOD's nature is supposedly Mercy and Love, so GOD creating beings that he knows will constantly go against his will and nature just to destroy them would be Cruel if GOD does not have to make them that way.

Again with the contradictions. You keep saying God could do anything. You say "but God could create a world where ..." but then say "God could not know the future and man still have free will". It seems you are willing to believe God could create any world but the one you live in.

God could make a different choice, true, but it would not be a "moral" choice, just a choice. If you are in essence a hologram already preprogrammed, whatever God does with you is at his discretion. He has no moral obligations to you, nor could He for you are not capable of moral choices according to your theory.

5. Well you believe that, I say Free Will is an illusion. So again, you agree with my point. GOD knew the choices I would choose beforehand and he knew he would need to send his Son to save us ? So I could not choose anything other than what GOD knew I would choose ? Like I said, GOD could have created us different, where our nature was bent towards his own nature and desires. This would prevent a lot of the problems we have. How is GOD not Immoral for creating beings that he would destroy and others that he would save if he has the power to create everyone where he would save all ? That's the epitome of Injustice, to create something where the possibility of fairness does not exist.

That's the epitome of Injustice, to create something where the possibility of fairness does not exist???? What??? If you are not a morally free agent, God can not enter into a real moral relationship with you. You are the moral equivalent of a rock. If God breaks the rock, throws the rock, or melts the rock, he hasn't done anything "immoral" to it. You can not speak of "fairness". If the potter crushes his pottery, has he been "unfair" to it? I think not.

I want to speak directly to a specific line, GOD already knows what I will choose, but I alone am responsible for the choice. Do you recall a story in the Bible where Jesus was at the Supper with his Disciples and Peter said he was willing to go to Prison with Jesus and even Die. Then Jesus said to Peter, before the Rooster crows Three times you will deny me. Do you think Peter had a choice not to deny Jesus those Three Times after the Rooster crows ? Also, how is not GOD playing a part in this choice as he is telling you what will happen beforehand ? Can Jesus be wrong ?

Yep, I believe that Peter had a choice, and Peter's response indicates that he believed he was responsible for his choice also. Was Jesus choice to die for your sins a real choice or not? It too was known to God from the beginning. Was it a legitimate choice made freely for you? I believe it was.

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I was just called and told my 2nd sister went to the hospital with failing kidneys. And she's now in a coma and on a breathing tube. F**k your pathetic excuse for a "God" and this piece of shit year.

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dshipp17

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#28048  Edited By dshipp17

@iron_tiger said:

I was just called and told my 2nd sister went to the hospital with failing kidneys. And she's now in a coma and on a breathing tube. F**k your pathetic excuse for a "God" and this piece of shit year.

Sorry to hear this; you're certainly not helping, when a miraculous intervention from God is called; if you change and believe, see God's wonders work by prayer to the Lord Jesus.

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@king_saturn said:

Nothing can be unknown to God, the question is does God's foreknowledge cause the future or merely identify what will be. It is here we differ in our opinion.

God knew about Adam's sin before he committed it. That much is true. The issue lies in causation. Knowing what will happen and causing it are two distinct things. Is God distinct from his creation? Then he need not be the cause of everything his creation does.

If people are not free moral agents and are unable to respond to God in a moral manner, how can He have any moral obligations to them ever? They are like characters programmed in a game. They do as they were programmed to do. If they suffer, God has done nothing to them but what a programmer does to his program - he created it and executed it. There is no "moral" failings regarding killing characters you programmed. The computer simulation has no claim on what actions the programmer must take. God would have to have a moral obligation to them, and without moral agency there can't be such a relationship. We are nothing but pawns on a chess board, to be consistent with your view of no free will. Is it "sin" for you to offer your pawn to the rook or knight? No, it is but your preference. There is no moral obligation to the pawn on behalf of the one who moves the pieces.

Explain further how it is immoral for God to run his program and have his creation carry out its intended purpose. You only have feelings because he created for you to have them. A creator can do with his creation as he wishes. It is only if he enters into a moral contract or agreement with a morally free creation could his actions be considered "moral" to begin with.

Again with the contradictions. You keep saying God could do anything. You say "but God could create a world where ..." but then say "God could not know the future and man still have free will". It seems you are willing to believe God could create any world but the one you live in.

God could make a different choice, true, but it would not be a "moral" choice, just a choice. If you are in essence a hologram already preprogrammed, whatever God does with you is at his discretion. He has no moral obligations to you, nor could He for you are not capable of moral choices according to your theory.

That's the epitome of Injustice, to create something where the possibility of fairness does not exist???? What??? If you are not a morally free agent, God can not enter into a real moral relationship with you. You are the moral equivalent of a rock. If God breaks the rock, throws the rock, or melts the rock, he hasn't done anything "immoral" to it. You can not speak of "fairness". If the potter crushes his pottery, has he been "unfair" to it? I think not.

Yep, I believe that Peter had a choice, and Peter's response indicates that he believed he was responsible for his choice also. Was Jesus choice to die for your sins a real choice or not? It too was known to God from the beginning. Was it a legitimate choice made freely for you? I believe it was.

1. How can GOD's foreknowledge not cause the future to be ? Can anyone do or choose anything other than what GOD's knows they will do ? GOD is the one outside of Space and Time and is Omniscient. Therefore his foreknowledge makes it impossible to choose anything other than what he knows you will choose. The reason why it seems like we have Free Will is because we as Humans live in the dimensions of Space and Time, we don't know everything and can experience Love freely. GOD can not it appears.

2. I think you are missing the point here. Yes, GOD is distinct from his Creation the thing is GOD's foreknowledge makes it impossible to choose anything other than what he knows. Could Adam really chose to not Sin against GOD if GOD had preordained Jesus to die on the Cross even before their was a Earth for Adam to exist on ? How could Adam choose anything other than what GOD knew he would hence the need for Jesus and his sacrifice.

3. I don't know if GOD has any Moral Obligations to us even if we was Moral Free Agents as you say considering that the Bible says all have Sinned and come short of the Glory of GOD. So essentially we all deserve whatever GOD gives us whether it be good or bad if that statement is true. The thing is GOD's nature is supposedly, Love and Mercy so I would hope in any situation that GOD's nature holds true. Well technically we are Pawns on a Chess Board whether there is Free Will or No Free Will. Remember Isaiah 45:7 when GOD says he can Make Peace or Create Evil ? GOD can do whatever he wants regardless of Free Will existing or not.

4. If GOD's nature is towards Love and Mercy, how can it be Moral for him to create beings that would do bad things so he could destroy them ? Yes, a creator can do with his creation as he wishes. That's true if Free Will exists or not. I don't understand where you are getting with this. Not really, if GOD's nature is Love and Mercy then I would expect his actions to be as such regardless if Free Will exists or not. Supposedly, GOD created Man in his own Image. Did GOD create Rocks in his own Image too ? Humans are more than just Rocks even if Free Will is an Illusion. I mean I don't see GOD saying anything about sending Jesus to die for Rocks in the Bible.

5. It's not a Contradiction. GOD is Omnipotent and can do anything he wants that is within his Attributes. GOD can not Sin and GOD can not create a Rock too heavy for him to lift. So when I say GOD can do anything and his Omniscience makes it impossible for him to not know something. How is that a Contradiction ? If GOD knows all things before we even exist how can we truly have Free Will ? What other options can we choose other than what GOD knows already beforehand ?

6. Again, whatever GOD does with you is at his discretion is true regardless if Free Will exists. Have not all sinned and come short of the glory of GOD ? Did not GOD say he can both make peace or create evil ? That's true regardless if Free Will exists or not.

7. If GOD creates some People to whom he will Love and Save and then he creates some People whom he will Destroy, how is that Fair ? How is that Just ? GOD does not have to enter into a Moral Agreement with us because technically according to the Bible our Morality don't mean nothing to him because we are all Sinners and GOD can do with us as he pleases.

8. Peter had no choice, How could Peter choose against what GOD already told him he would do ? How can Jesus be wrong if he be God in the Flesh ? Jesus foreknowledge of the situation shuts down Peter's choice because not only did Jesus know that Peter would deny him Three times, Jesus clearly knew why he would. Hence, why Jesus said he prayed for him beforehand. Peter could not choose anything other than what GOD knew he would choose. I don't think so, I think Jesus came and die because he had to because the Father declared it beforehand and sent him.