Religion… What do you think?

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Iron_Tiger

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dshipp17

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#27902  Edited By dshipp17

@spareheadone said:

@dshipp17:

Think of the book of Job

Stan did everything God wanted

Or when kings attributes the same action to Stan as Chronicles does to God.

Or when Joseph say "what you intended for evil, God intended for good"

Or Judas, who was required to have Stan in him so he could betray Jesus.

No, the Book of Job does not support your position, at all; God limited Satan as to what he could do, while letting Stan choose what he wanted to do; at the same time, it was a free will test for Job as to whether he would hold steadfast to God.

The doing the census in Kings and Chronicles was a case of Satan tempting the Israelites and prompting God to chastise them, just as He chastises the Christians for sinning, as He loves us; this likewise is not a case of Satan working the will of God but working contrary to the will of God.

Judas always had his free will to choose Jesus like the other 11 Disciples, but didn't; God's Will is within us all as the conscious feeling to turn to Him; thus, Judas had this impulse to turn to Jesus but never did; Satan just tempted Judas' sin weakness which was apparently greed and he succumbed; although it was apart of God's plan, Satan was still acting contrary to the will of God; Satan just made a mistake in having Jesus crucified; Satan thought something to the effect that, in Jesus bearing all of the sins of humanity upon Himself, that combined infinity would kill Jesus and leave Him in Hell to be tormented by himself and His demons, but, there was a loophole of some sort, including Jesus already being an infinite vessel, meaning only Jesus could accomplish it, at the same time; this was a paradox of sorts in all respects.

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SpareHeadOne

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@dshipp17:

Think of Gods plan to show his glory through redeeming his chosen ones.

God needed Stan to actualise the plan.

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King Saturn

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The story of the Census was in 2 Samuel 24 and 1 Chronicles 21, it's not in Kings. Not unless there was another time where a Census was taken. In any case, the story shows how GOD or Satan used David to cause him to Sin where punishment could be taken out on Israel. That is another bizarre story in the Bible where GOD kills thousands of people for the Sin of one person. Also, the passage in 1 Chronicles 21 where it's Satan inciting David to take the Census does not actually say that GOD was angry with Israel before the Census was taken. In fact, it literally says in 1 Chronicles 21:7 "This Command was also Evil in the sight of the LORD, so he (GOD) punished Israel".

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just_sayin

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The story of the Census was in 2 Samuel 24 and 1 Chronicles 21, it's not in Kings. Not unless there was another time where a Census was taken. In any case, the story shows how GOD or Satan used David to cause him to Sin where punishment could be taken out on Israel. That is another bizarre story in the Bible where GOD kills thousands of people for the Sin of one person. Also, the passage in 1 Chronicles 21 where it's Satan inciting David to take the Census does not actually say that GOD was angry with Israel before the Census was taken. In fact, it literally says in 1 Chronicles 21:7 "This Command was also Evil in the sight of the LORD, so he (GOD) punished Israel".

You don't have the story quite right. Earlier, God had promised that if Israel had a census the whole nation would be punished if they participated without offering a sacrifice, so you are omitting some backstory that suggests that Israel did have a sin of omission (see https://www.gotquestions.org/David-census.html ). I think we have discussed this before, but I am not certain.

People suffer due to bad decisions other people make in the Bible, as in life today. This "corporate" punishment is not based on the individual's salvivic status or even individual conduct. The same situation applies to the destruction of Israel and Judah. Daniel and Jeremiah were living upright lives but still suffered in the "corporate" punishment. Today people suffer because of the actions of an irresponsible parent, drunk driver, or immoral politician. It seems that you are wanting to say God can not allow/bring about unhappy or painful events in the lives of people - with or without cause. Why would you assume that? Why would the Creator need the permission of his creation to do as he sees fit? Do you assume that people are God's equal and that suffering should never happen? Why would my suffering disprove God's justice? Are you claiming that I am without sin or that God is not allowed to allow us to undergo suffering?

You may be making too much of the translation in I Chronicles 21 (see the link provided). There is no subject for the verb, so different translations render it differently with differing sources of David's action.

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SpareHeadOne

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@just_sayin:

But who made Davey take the census?

Stan or God.

OR

God using Stan?

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King Saturn

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#27907  Edited By King Saturn
@just_sayin said:
@king_saturn said:
The story of the Census was in 2 Samuel 24 and 1 Chronicles 21, it's not in Kings. Not unless there was another time where a Census was taken. In any case, the story shows how GOD or Satan used David to cause him to Sin where punishment could be taken out on Israel. That is another bizarre story in the Bible where GOD kills thousands of people for the Sin of one person. Also, the passage in 1 Chronicles 21 where it's Satan inciting David to take the Census does not actually say that GOD was angry with Israel before the Census was taken. In fact, it literally says in 1 Chronicles 21:7 "This Command was also Evil in the sight of the LORD, so he (GOD) punished Israel".

You don't have the story quite right. Earlier, God had promised that if Israel had a census the whole nation would be punished if they participated without offering a sacrifice, so you are omitting some backstory that suggests that Israel did have a sin of omission (see https://www.gotquestions.org/David-census.html ). I think we have discussed this before, but I am not certain.

People suffer due to bad decisions other people make in the Bible, as in life today. This "corporate" punishment is not based on the individual's salvivic status or even individual conduct. The same situation applies to the destruction of Israel and Judah. Daniel and Jeremiah were living upright lives but still suffered in the "corporate" punishment. Today people suffer because of the actions of an irresponsible parent, drunk driver, or immoral politician. It seems that you are wanting to say God can not allow/bring about unhappy or painful events in the lives of people - with or without cause. Why would you assume that? Why would the Creator need the permission of his creation to do as he sees fit? Do you assume that people are God's equal and that suffering should never happen? Why would my suffering disprove God's justice? Are you claiming that I am without sin or that God is not allowed to allow us to undergo suffering?

You may be making too much of the translation in I Chronicles 21 (see the link provided). There is no subject for the verb, so different translations render it differently with differing sources of David's action.

1. Where did GOD warn earlier Israel in 2 Samuel or 1 Chronicles that he would punish the whole nation of Israel for taking a Census ? If you are referring to Exodus, again that was GOD speaking with Moses and how does this make this situation any less bizarre that GOD would punish thousands of people for the Sin of 1 Person ?

2. Oh, I am well aware of GOD punishing people due to other people's bad decisions. The question is why does GOD do this thing If his Character is Righteous and Just ? When is it ever right to punish someone for the crimes committed of someone else if you have the ability to judge correctly ? No, I am wanting to say How is it that GOD's character is supposedly the embodiment of righteousness and yet he punishes 70,000 People for the Sins of 1 Person when he does not have to do so. No, I do not assume people are GOD's equal, where did that come from ? It's how the suffering comes about, if GOD causes America to suffer because Donald Trump took a Census that would be kind of weird would it not ? The examples you gave of Corporate Punishment are direct consequences of actions. Bad Parents leading to children being abused or a Drunk Driver taking the life of someone or even an Immoral Politician doing horrible things to a Nation's People. The Difference is that in this instance we have GOD himself enacting a punishment against a Nation of People on the strength of what David did compared to having consequences of events from bad people. The Former is GOD's enacting punishments the Latter is GOD allowing stuff to happen.

3. In both passages, it says that it was David's sin of taking the Census that caused GOD to punish Israel. If David does not take the Census, 70,000 Israelites would be alive. Regardless of either translation in either book. That point remains the same. GOD enacting a punishment for David's sin. If GOD was simply punishing Israel for disobedient behavior why would he not do it before David took the census ? It was the census that triggered this event.

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just_sayin

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#27908  Edited By just_sayin

@king_saturn said:

1. Where did GOD warn earlier Israel in 2 Samuel or 1 Chronicles that he would punish the whole nation of Israel for taking a Census ? If you are referring to Exodus, again that was GOD speaking with Moses and how does this make this situation any less bizarre that GOD would punish thousands of people for the Sin of 1 Person ?

Deuteronomy 4 is an example of God telling Israel of His laws. Further, the people stood on two mountains - Sinai - they recited the blessings of obeying the law, and Horeb where they recited the punishments if they disobeyed the law.

It might be more helpful to you to say that the nation suffered (or was punished) by the sin of David rather than for the sin of David. There is no imputation of sin to the nation for David's sin. (Though that really isn't the case).

Words like by, for, to, in, on, into, out of, for the purpose of, are often designated by the same endings in different languages. Be careful not to get too literal on the "for" clause.

2. Oh, I am well aware of GOD punishing people due to other people's bad decisions. The question is why does GOD do this thing If his Character is Righteous and Just ? When is it ever right to punish someone for the crimes committed of someone else if you have the ability to judge correctly ? No, I am wanting to say How is it that GOD's character is supposedly the embodiment of righteousness and yet he punishes 70,000 People for the Sins of 1 Person when he does not have to do so. No, I do not assume people are GOD's equal, where did that come from ? It's how the suffering comes about, if GOD causes America to suffer because Donald Trump took a Census that would be kind of weird would it not ? The examples you gave of Corporate Punishment are direct consequences of actions. Bad Parents leading to children being abused or a Drunk Driver taking the life of someone or even an Immoral Politician doing horrible things to a Nation's People. The Difference is that in this instance we have GOD himself enacting a punishment against a Nation of People on the strength of what David did compared to having consequences of events from bad people. The Former is GOD's enacting punishments the Latter is GOD allowing stuff to happen.

Again, see above about a distinction between "for" and "by". I don't think you have the circumstances quite right in the specific situation, but I'll respond to that below.

Is it "immoral" for God to allow people to suffer? Regardless, whether for their sins or as "fallout" from someone else's? Does God owe me a life without pain or suffering? Has God sinned if a child is born disfigured or blind or with terminal cancer? Ultimately, it seems to me, that this is what your allegation boils down to - God is immoral if someone suffers and that suffering is not linked to some personal sin. But for that to be true, God would have to have some obligation to me that I live a perfect "suffer" free life. When was that promise made? Where is that rule? The one that says "sh*t shall not happen". Seriously, you need to support that point. I've repeatedly mentioned that God is the creator, he can do with what he has made anyway he pleases. Whether he keeps and loves it or destroys it and throws it away, it is His choice, and no immoral behavior has occurred.

3. In both passages, it says that it was David's sin of taking the Census that caused GOD to punish Israel. If David does not take the Census, 70,000 Israelites would be alive. Regardless of either translation in either book. That point remains the same. GOD enacting a punishment for David's sin. If GOD was simply punishing Israel for disobedient behavior why would he not do it before David took the census ? It was the census that triggered this event.

I don't think you have read either passage correctly. The Israeli people are not innocent in this exchange.

Now again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and it incited David against them to say, "Go, number Israel and Judah." 2 Samuel 24:1

This verse suggests that the consequences of the census where deserved even before the census was taken. Else why is God mad at Israel before the event?

Secondly, the passage in I Chronicles 21 suggests that Israel played a part in the sin:

But Joab replied, “May the Lord increase the number of his people a hundred times over! But why, my lord the king, do you want to do this? Are they not all your servants? Why must you cause Israel to sin?” - 1 Chronicles 21:3

The passage suggests that Israel also participated in sin. (We've already mentioned the prohibitions in Exodus).

So they are not guilt free as you have suggested. But for the larger point of this discussion, let's pretend they are. How is God immoral for allowing something painful to happen to an innocent group of people? If a meteor falls out of the sky and kills them all - has God sinned? If so, how? Again, there is no imputation of sin - no eternal damnation involved. So, what has God done that he doesn't have the right and authority to do?

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just_sayin

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@just_sayin:

But who made Davey take the census?

Stan or God.

OR

God using Stan?

The old Testament views Satan as a tool of God, who whether voluntarily or involuntarily does the will of God. The name itself means "accuser". In Biblical Hebrew mindset, God is the sovereign, the all powerful one. Even when something is done by someone else, for the Hebrew mindset it can be said, God allowed it to happen. God did not "force" David to sin. We are each responsible for our own actions. What is implied is that God did not disrupt the path David was on.

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#27912  Edited By dshipp17

@spareheadone said:

@dshipp17:

Think of Gods plan to show his glory through redeeming his chosen ones.

God needed Stan to actualise the plan.

God needs free will to actualize His plan; free will is the driving force. Satan, in tern, tempts, to turn people away from God, but, clearly, by his free will to be in opposition to God; and, then, it just so happens to move according to God's plan. if there is any connection in operation between God and the adversary.

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SpareHeadOne

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@dshipp17:

Free will is an illusion

Free will is unbiblical

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SpareHeadOne

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#27914  Edited By SpareHeadOne

@just_sayin:

God started the focus on Job.

God had final say in the matter.

God prescribed the nature of Jobs treatment.

God certainly used Stan to disrupt Jobs path.

As you say God owns it all God made it all God can do what he wants with it all.

As I say God is all and God is Job

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just_sayin

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@just_sayin:

God started the focus on Job.

God had final say in the matter.

God prescribed the nature of Jobs treatment.

God certainly used Stan to disrupt Jobs path.

As you say God owns it all God made it all God can do what he wants with it all.

As I say God is all and God is Job

God is not Job. Job is Job. God exists apart from Job. Before Job existed, God existed. If Job ceased to exist, God still exists. God is distinct from His creation, he exists outside of space-time, but is not isolated from any part it.

There are two things I am can say with some confidence: 1) There is a God; and 2) You aren't him.

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SpareHeadOne

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@just_sayin:

God is Job. Job is Job. God exists as Job. Before Job existed, God existed. When God manifested as Job, Job was God. When Job ceased to exist, God still exists. God is His creation, what else can creation be made of?, he exists outside of space-time and within space and time, and is not isolated from any part it.

There are two things I am can say with some confidence: 1) There is a God; and 2) You are him.

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dshipp17

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@dshipp17:

Free will is an illusion

Free will is unbiblical

Free will is very much Biblical and is not an illusion; this is an issue that you will need to abandon your ego to accept; get inline with the teachings of the mainstream church. John 3:16; God's will is that none should perish, but, many do perish.

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just_sayin

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@just_sayin:

God is Job. Job is Job. God exists as Job. Before Job existed, God existed. When God manifested as Job, Job was God. When Job ceased to exist, God still exists. God is His creation, what else can creation be made of?, he exists outside of space-time and within space and time, and is not isolated from any part it.

There are two things I am can say with some confidence: 1) There is a God; and 2) You are him.

While I appreciate the adulation, but I am not God. Nor, my friend are you. Now I do admit that I once got into a fight with Jesus Christ - at least that's what he said his name was. He insisted that since he was Jesus Christ I should kneel and worship him. I told Jesus he was as high as a kite and Jesus took a swing at me. I'm pretty sure from that experience, I'm not God or Jesus. If I was, I figure Jesus Christ would have recognized me.

God existed before us and is therefore distinct from us. We are not part of his essential being. Just as you may be in your pants, but you aren't your pants, God can be present in you, but not you. Now, I'm sure you'll come back with some witty reply about being in my pants, but I assure you, you are not there.

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SpareHeadOne

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@just_sayin:

What was the universe made of?

What makes you alive?

Is God light?

You are not The Father but you make up The Son because you are a manifestation of The Spirit

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King Saturn

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@king_saturn said:

1. Where did GOD warn earlier Israel in 2 Samuel or 1 Chronicles that he would punish the whole nation of Israel for taking a Census ? If you are referring to Exodus, again that was GOD speaking with Moses and how does this make this situation any less bizarre that GOD would punish thousands of people for the Sin of 1 Person ?

Deuteronomy 4 is an example of God telling Israel of His laws. Further, the people stood on two mountains - Sinai - they recited the blessings of obeying the law, and Horeb where they recited the punishments if they disobeyed the law.

It might be more helpful to you to say that the nation suffered (or was punished) by the sin of David rather than for the sin of David. There is no imputation of sin to the nation for David's sin. (Though that really isn't the case).

Words like by, for, to, in, on, into, out of, for the purpose of, are often designated by the same endings in different languages. Be careful not to get too literal on the "for" clause.

2. Oh, I am well aware of GOD punishing people due to other people's bad decisions. The question is why does GOD do this thing If his Character is Righteous and Just ? When is it ever right to punish someone for the crimes committed of someone else if you have the ability to judge correctly ? No, I am wanting to say How is it that GOD's character is supposedly the embodiment of righteousness and yet he punishes 70,000 People for the Sins of 1 Person when he does not have to do so. No, I do not assume people are GOD's equal, where did that come from ? It's how the suffering comes about, if GOD causes America to suffer because Donald Trump took a Census that would be kind of weird would it not ? The examples you gave of Corporate Punishment are direct consequences of actions. Bad Parents leading to children being abused or a Drunk Driver taking the life of someone or even an Immoral Politician doing horrible things to a Nation's People. The Difference is that in this instance we have GOD himself enacting a punishment against a Nation of People on the strength of what David did compared to having consequences of events from bad people. The Former is GOD's enacting punishments the Latter is GOD allowing stuff to happen.

Again, see above about a distinction between "for" and "by". I don't think you have the circumstances quite right in the specific situation, but I'll respond to that below.

Is it "immoral" for God to allow people to suffer? Regardless, whether for their sins or as "fallout" from someone else's? Does God owe me a life without pain or suffering? Has God sinned if a child is born disfigured or blind or with terminal cancer? Ultimately, it seems to me, that this is what your allegation boils down to - God is immoral if someone suffers and that suffering is not linked to some personal sin. But for that to be true, God would have to have some obligation to me that I live a perfect "suffer" free life. When was that promise made? Where is that rule? The one that says "sh*t shall not happen". Seriously, you need to support that point. I've repeatedly mentioned that God is the creator, he can do with what he has made anyway he pleases. Whether he keeps and loves it or destroys it and throws it away, it is His choice, and no immoral behavior has occurred.

3. In both passages, it says that it was David's sin of taking the Census that caused GOD to punish Israel. If David does not take the Census, 70,000 Israelites would be alive. Regardless of either translation in either book. That point remains the same. GOD enacting a punishment for David's sin. If GOD was simply punishing Israel for disobedient behavior why would he not do it before David took the census ? It was the census that triggered this event.

I don't think you have read either passage correctly. The Israeli people are not innocent in this exchange.

Now again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and it incited David against them to say, "Go, number Israel and Judah." 2 Samuel 24:1

This verse suggests that the consequences of the census where deserved even before the census was taken. Else why is God mad at Israel before the event?

Secondly, the passage in I Chronicles 21 suggests that Israel played a part in the sin:

But Joab replied, “May the Lord increase the number of his people a hundred times over! But why, my lord the king, do you want to do this? Are they not all your servants? Why must you cause Israel to sin?” - 1 Chronicles 21:3

The passage suggests that Israel also participated in sin. (We've already mentioned the prohibitions in Exodus).

So they are not guilt free as you have suggested. But for the larger point of this discussion, let's pretend they are. How is God immoral for allowing something painful to happen to an innocent group of people? If a meteor falls out of the sky and kills them all - has God sinned? If so, how? Again, there is no imputation of sin - no eternal damnation involved. So, what has God done that he doesn't have the right and authority to do?

1. This is the reading of the law concerning the Census in Exodus 30:11-12 "Then The LORD said to Moses, When you take a Census of the Israelites to count them, each one must pay The LORD a ranson for his life at the time he is counted. Then no plague will come on them when you number them". That is the proposed law of GOD concerning the Census. Now where in 2 Samuel 24 or 1 Chronicles 21 does it say that Israel did not do what they was supposed to regarding the Census to have the plague come upon them ? The thing that is eluded to in both passages concerning this situation is that David himself unlawfully took a census and this command disgusted the LORD so he punished Israel. The passage never says that Israel did something wrong during the process of the Census, only that David had taken a Census when he was not supposed to.

2. Okay, Israel was punished by the Sin of David. How does this change anything ? GOD is still punishing Israel on the strength of what David had done not because of what Israel had done. It's made clear in both passages that the plagues came after David had sinned by taking the Census.

3. It's a character issue, how can GOD be considered compassionate or loving if he allows thousands of people to die because of something one person did that was wrong ? It goes against the nature of GOD because this in no ways is any of the qualities we say make up GOD's nature. Well, you are going off the deep end again with your analogies about GOD owing us a life without pain and suffering. There is a difference between GOD allowing pain and suffering and GOD killing thousands for the sake of one man's wrong doing. You can live and learn from pain and suffering but if you are dead how can you learn or grow from that ?

4. Okay, but you used 2 Samuel 24 that says The LORD incited David to take a Census because he was angry with Israel. If you read 1 Chronicles 21, it starts off saying Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a Census of Israel. Now which one is it ? Is it GOD causing David to take a Census or is it Satan causing David to take a Census. It can not be both.

5. 1 Chronicles 21:3, has Joab saying Why must He ( David ) bring guilt on Israel ? The thing here is that by David doing the Census unlawfully, he ( David ) would have cursed Israel in being guilty but again, how would Israel avoid this though ? I mean what is the method that Israel could do to stop David from numbering them ? David's sin is what caused this catastrophe, that and GOD's anger and wrath.

6. The passage suggests that Israel would hold guilt or trespass for the sin of David taking a Census unlawfully. 2 Samuel 24 is interesting in the fact that GOD was angry with Israel beforehand but GOD had to cause David to Sin to punish Israel ? See, that's what does not make sense because GOD has always been one to punish Israel whenever they got out of line when he felt like it, so what would be the point of GOD inciting David to do wrong here ? There is something amiss about this passage.

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@dshipp17:

Free will is not Biblical and is an illusion; this is an issue that you will need to abandon your ego to accept; get inline with the teachings of the bible. John 3:16; God's will is that none should perish, but, many do perish because the Father did not draw them to Jesus.

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@just_sayin:

Btw I like the way you referred to yourself as "I am".

"""There are two things I AM can say with some confidence"""

I think God is speaking to you.

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dshipp17

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#27923  Edited By dshipp17

Luke 2:21-38:

And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called Jesus, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.

22 And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;

23 (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord;)

24 And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.

25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.

26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.

27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,

28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,

29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:

30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,

31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;

32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

33 And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.

34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;

35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;

37 And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.

38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.

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#27925  Edited By dshipp17

@spareheadone said:

@dshipp17:

Free will is not Biblical and is an illusion; this is an issue that you will need to abandon your ego to accept; get inline with the teachings of the bible. John 3:16; God's will is that none should perish, but, many do perish because the Father did not draw them to Jesus.

"John 3:16; God's will is that none should perish, but, many do perish because the Father did not draw them to Jesus."

For some reason, this didn't pull up. Your response didn't come up; this is just plan wrong; God is drawing everyone towards Him, and His will that everyone accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior; but, of course, people exercise their free will and don't obey this innate consciousness, Psalm 19:1-4 and Romans 1:20; but, in some cases, people harden their heart so complete that they are just given up to a reprobate mind. Just let it go, as this is the teaching of the mainstream church is entirely based in the Bible; the implication is so clear; the Bible doesn't have to go all the way and say free will, when any reasonable mind can tell that free will is at play.

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SpareHeadOne

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@dshipp17:

Everyone is a puppet being ultimately controlled by the predestination of God.

No one comes to Jesus except that the Father draws him and the Father chose not to draw some of those present in John 6.

The Father gives people over to be veiled from the truth therefore he is willing that they should perish

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just_sayin

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1. This is the reading of the law concerning the Census in Exodus 30:11-12 "Then The LORD said to Moses, When you take a Census of the Israelites to count them, each one must pay The LORD a ransom for his life at the time he is counted. Then no plague will come on them when you number them". That is the proposed law of GOD concerning the Census. Now where in 2 Samuel 24 or 1 Chronicles 21 does it say that Israel did not do what they was supposed to regarding the Census to have the plague come upon them ?

The passages do not tell us what exactly Israel's response was other than participating in the census. The primary point of view is with David and how he acts and responds. The text is silent on whether the community followed the prescribed ordinances.

The thing that is eluded to in both passages concerning this situation is that David himself unlawfully took a census and this command disgusted the LORD so he punished Israel. The passage never says that Israel did something wrong during the process of the Census, only that David had taken a Census when he was not supposed to.

Joab makes a statement that suggests that the course of events would cause Israel to sin. The other passage suggests that God is already angry with Israel and this occasion will serve as a way to "punish" them.

2. Okay, Israel was punished by the Sin of David. How does this change anything ?

Most certainly. It seems to me that there are two distinct classifications here. There is an individual and a community aspect. Both have differing attributes and as such are treated as distinct. It seems to me that God consistently applies the rules that apply to the appropriate thing accordingly.

Maybe this example will help. I wrestled in high school (this also applies to track & field, and gymnastics). I had an individual win/loss record. I was evaluated individually by the referee. But I was also part of a team, and that same referee made a determination on if my team won or loss depending on different criteria. There were times when I would win and the team would not. Has the referee cheated me? Can he not make an individual as well as a group determination?

GOD is still punishing Israel on the strength of what David had done not because of what Israel had done. It's made clear in both passages that the plagues came after David had sinned by taking the Census.

David is the "team leader". His actions are not just individualistic, they also impact the group. God has not changed his individual judgements of each person in Israel. This judgement is based on the group, which David as king, has an oversized role in determining. A fact God warned the people of when they first asked for a king.

3. It's a character issue, how can GOD be considered compassionate or loving if he allows thousands of people to die because of something one person did that was wrong ?

You picked the wrong passages to make this argument. It has already been shown that the people knew they would be punished if they took a census. Joab warns David that the people will be punished, and the other passage suggests that God already had cause to punish the people. How is God unjust for holding Israel accountable for the covenant that they agreed to?

I think there is a conflation of two different categories of things - individual accountability and community accountability. David's individual sins are not imputed to the people. They will not be eternally judged based on his sins but each will be judged by his own. The old Testament repeated makes this clear that the son will not be punished for the sins of the Father.

There is also a community responsibility at play in this passage, where the group as a whole is rewarded or judged based on the group's overall choices and actions.

It goes against the nature of GOD because this in no ways is any of the qualities we say make up GOD's nature. Well, you are going off the deep end again with your analogies about GOD owing us a life without pain and suffering. There is a difference between GOD allowing pain and suffering and GOD killing thousands for the sake of one man's wrong doing. You can live and learn from pain and suffering but if you are dead how can you learn or grow from that ?

My point is that if God in general can bring pain and suffering into our lives whenever he wants, then there is no violation if he brings pain and suffering based on the community failings that we are part of. If God is not guilty for letting us suffer when there is no wrong doing, then he is certainly not guilty when our group has done wrong.

Does group suffering serve a point?

Brothers and sisters, I want you to know what happened to our ancestors who followed Moses. They were all under the cloud and all went through the sea. They were all baptized as followers of Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 They all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. They drank from that spiritual rock that followed them, and that rock was Christ. But God was not pleased with most of them, so they died in the desert.

And these things happened as examples for us, to stop us from wanting evil things as those people did. Do not worship idols, as some of them did. Just as it is written in the Scriptures: “They sat down to eat and drink, and then they got up and sinned sexually.” We must not take part in sexual sins, as some of them did. In one day twenty-three thousand of them died because of their sins. We must not test Christ as some of them did; they were killed by snakes. Do not complain as some of them did; they were killed by the angel that destroys.

The things that happened to those people are examples. They were written down to teach us - 1 Corinthians 10:1-11

4. Okay, but you used 2 Samuel 24 that says The LORD incited David to take a Census because he was angry with Israel. If you read 1 Chronicles 21, it starts off saying Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a Census of Israel. Now which one is it ? Is it GOD causing David to take a Census or is it Satan causing David to take a Census. It can not be both.

In the Hebrew mind it is both. You see the same thing with Pharoah refusing to let the people of Israel go. Some places say God hardened Pharaoh's heart and others emphasize Pharaoh's own choices and actions. God does not make David's decision any more than he made Pharaoh's decision. God allowed the circumstances of these decisions to come about and did not interrupt their natural course. In the biblical Hebrew mind, everything ultimately happens by either God's active action or by his refusing to interfere.

5. 1 Chronicles 21:3, has Joab saying Why must He ( David ) bring guilt on Israel ? The thing here is that by David doing the Census unlawfully, he ( David ) would have cursed Israel in being guilty but again, how would Israel avoid this though ? I mean what is the method that Israel could do to stop David from numbering them ? David's sin is what caused this catastrophe, that and GOD's anger and wrath.

I don't know enough to answer this question. I've never heard this brought up in the elementary church program I act as a bouncer for. Now, the one passage I pointed you to did say that God was already angry with the people, and the Exodus passage does indicate that offerings were to be made. And I mentioned that the people choice to have a king even though God told them that they would suffer because of his decisions. Maybe that answers your question.

6. The passage suggests that Israel would hold guilt or trespass for the sin of David taking a Census unlawfully. 2 Samuel 24 is interesting in the fact that GOD was angry with Israel beforehand but GOD had to cause David to Sin to punish Israel ? See, that's what does not make sense because GOD has always been one to punish Israel whenever they got out of line when he felt like it, so what would be the point of GOD inciting David to do wrong here ? There is something amiss about this passage.

Again, I don't know of any Jewish theologian that interprets those passages as God "causing" David to sin. The traditional Christian perspective of the individual is "For we are each responsible for our own conduct." - Galatians 6:5 NLT

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1. This is the reading of the law concerning the Census in Exodus 30:11-12 "Then The LORD said to Moses, When you take a Census of the Israelites to count them, each one must pay The LORD a ransom for his life at the time he is counted. Then no plague will come on them when you number them". That is the proposed law of GOD concerning the Census. Now where in 2 Samuel 24 or 1 Chronicles 21 does it say that Israel did not do what they was supposed to regarding the Census to have the plague come upon them ?

The passages do not tell us what exactly Israel's response was other than participating in the census. The primary point of view is with David and how he acts and responds. The text is silent on whether the community followed the prescribed ordinances.

The thing that is eluded to in both passages concerning this situation is that David himself unlawfully took a census and this command disgusted the LORD so he punished Israel. The passage never says that Israel did something wrong during the process of the Census, only that David had taken a Census when he was not supposed to.

Joab makes a statement that suggests that the course of events would cause Israel to sin. The other passage suggests that God is already angry with Israel and this occasion will serve as a way to "punish" them.

2. Okay, Israel was punished by the Sin of David. How does this change anything ?

Most certainly. It seems to me that there are two distinct classifications here. There is an individual and a community aspect. Both have differing attributes and as such are treated as distinct. It seems to me that God consistently applies the rules that apply to the appropriate thing accordingly.

Maybe this example will help. I wrestled in high school (this also applies to track & field, and gymnastics). I had an individual win/loss record. I was evaluated individually by the referee. But I was also part of a team, and that same referee made a determination on if my team won or loss depending on different criteria. There were times when I would win and the team would not. Has the referee cheated me? Can he not make an individual as well as a group determination?

GOD is still punishing Israel on the strength of what David had done not because of what Israel had done. It's made clear in both passages that the plagues came after David had sinned by taking the Census.

David is the "team leader". His actions are not just individualistic, they also impact the group. God has not changed his individual judgements of each person in Israel. This judgement is based on the group, which David as king, has an oversized role in determining. A fact God warned the people of when they first asked for a king.

3. It's a character issue, how can GOD be considered compassionate or loving if he allows thousands of people to die because of something one person did that was wrong ?

You picked the wrong passages to make this argument. It has already been shown that the people knew they would be punished if they took a census. Joab warns David that the people will be punished, and the other passage suggests that God already had cause to punish the people. How is God unjust for holding Israel accountable for the covenant that they agreed to?

I think there is a conflation of two different categories of things - individual accountability and community accountability. David's individual sins are not imputed to the people. They will not be eternally judged based on his sins but each will be judged by his own. The old Testament repeated makes this clear that the son will not be punished for the sins of the Father.

There is also a community responsibility at play in this passage, where the group as a whole is rewarded or judged based on the group's overall choices and actions.

It goes against the nature of GOD because this in no ways is any of the qualities we say make up GOD's nature. Well, you are going off the deep end again with your analogies about GOD owing us a life without pain and suffering. There is a difference between GOD allowing pain and suffering and GOD killing thousands for the sake of one man's wrong doing. You can live and learn from pain and suffering but if you are dead how can you learn or grow from that ?

My point is that if God in general can bring pain and suffering into our lives whenever he wants, then there is no violation if he brings pain and suffering based on the community failings that we are part of. If God is not guilty for letting us suffer when there is no wrong doing, then he is certainly not guilty when our group has done wrong.

Does group suffering serve a point?

Brothers and sisters, I want you to know what happened to our ancestors who followed Moses. They were all under the cloud and all went through the sea. They were all baptized as followers of Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 They all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. They drank from that spiritual rock that followed them, and that rock was Christ. But God was not pleased with most of them, so they died in the desert.

And these things happened as examples for us, to stop us from wanting evil things as those people did. Do not worship idols, as some of them did. Just as it is written in the Scriptures: “They sat down to eat and drink, and then they got up and sinned sexually.” We must not take part in sexual sins, as some of them did. In one day twenty-three thousand of them died because of their sins. We must not test Christ as some of them did; they were killed by snakes. Do not complain as some of them did; they were killed by the angel that destroys.

The things that happened to those people are examples. They were written down to teach us - 1 Corinthians 10:1-11

4. Okay, but you used 2 Samuel 24 that says The LORD incited David to take a Census because he was angry with Israel. If you read 1 Chronicles 21, it starts off saying Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a Census of Israel. Now which one is it ? Is it GOD causing David to take a Census or is it Satan causing David to take a Census. It can not be both.

In the Hebrew mind it is both. You see the same thing with Pharoah refusing to let the people of Israel go. Some places say God hardened Pharaoh's heart and others emphasize Pharaoh's own choices and actions. God does not make David's decision any more than he made Pharaoh's decision. God allowed the circumstances of these decisions to come about and did not interrupt their natural course. In the biblical Hebrew mind, everything ultimately happens by either God's active action or by his refusing to interfere.

5. 1 Chronicles 21:3, has Joab saying Why must He ( David ) bring guilt on Israel ? The thing here is that by David doing the Census unlawfully, he ( David ) would have cursed Israel in being guilty but again, how would Israel avoid this though ? I mean what is the method that Israel could do to stop David from numbering them ? David's sin is what caused this catastrophe, that and GOD's anger and wrath.

I don't know enough to answer this question. I've never heard this brought up in the elementary church program I act as a bouncer for. Now, the one passage I pointed you to did say that God was already angry with the people, and the Exodus passage does indicate that offerings were to be made. And I mentioned that the people choice to have a king even though God told them that they would suffer because of his decisions. Maybe that answers your question.

6. The passage suggests that Israel would hold guilt or trespass for the sin of David taking a Census unlawfully. 2 Samuel 24 is interesting in the fact that GOD was angry with Israel beforehand but GOD had to cause David to Sin to punish Israel ? See, that's what does not make sense because GOD has always been one to punish Israel whenever they got out of line when he felt like it, so what would be the point of GOD inciting David to do wrong here ? There is something amiss about this passage.

Again, I don't know of any Jewish theologian that interprets those passages as God "causing" David to sin. The traditional Christian perspective of the individual is "For we are each responsible for our own conduct." - Galatians 6:5 NLT

1. Then how can you assume that Israel was in the wrong itself concerning the Census if the text does not say that they was in the wrong and only that David had committed sin and in turn caused guilt to come unto Israel for his wrongdoing ?

2. No Joab does not. In the NIV and ESV both passages say that David's sin would cause guilt upon the nation of Israel, that is because of the sin that David had committed and been incited to commit. Joab was speaking how David's sin would cause the guilt to be on Israel and they would be in trouble on the strength of what David was doing.

3. It makes no difference, GOD punished Israel for the Sin that David had committed. It's specifically stated directly in 1 Chronicles 21:7. Your analogy serves no purpose here. I already went over how 2 Samuel 24 is fishy because if GOD is angry at Israel beforehand then why is GOD not punishing Israel beforehand instead of GOD inciting David to Sin by unlawfully taking a Census as the passage indicates and then punishing them ? It makes no sense unless the Sin of David is what caused GOD to punish Israel then.

4. It goes against GOD's character though. It's one thing for GOD to bring suffering to a community. It's another thing for GOD to kill thousands because a person decides to do something unlawful. That is and has been the issue. Like I said, you can survive suffering or pain and come out of it stronger but if you are killed off and destroyed, how do you grow from that ?

5. Well that's interesting. If you see that Israel could not do anything to impede GOD's wrath concerning the Census that David was incited to do. Then essentially there was no redemption possible or no way to avoid penalty even though the Sin was done by something else. Then again, essentially David had Israel screwed by his actions.

6. Well lets look at 2 Samuel 24 then, this is 2 Samuel 24:1 "Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel and he ( GOD ) incited David against them saying "Go and take a Census of Israel and Judah". NIV

Now what does that seem like is happening there ? GOD incited David to take a Census of Israel and Judah which would have been unlawful. GOD cause David to Sin because he wanted to punish Israel. Again, as I have said this passage is Fishy as Hell. Also Galatians 6:5 is a pipebomb to your argument. To say "For we are each responsible for our conduct" and then to argue that GOD can kill thousands for the Sin of essentially one man's conduct is very contradictory.

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dshipp17

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#27929  Edited By dshipp17

@spareheadone said:

@dshipp17:

Everyone is a puppet being ultimately controlled by the predestination of God.

No one comes to Jesus except that the Father draws him and the Father chose not to draw some of those present in John 6.

The Father gives people over to be veiled from the truth therefore he is willing that they should perish

This is a case where you need to look at the Scripture in context, as Romans 1:20 says that no one will be left without excuse; if that's the case, then your interpretation or application of the Scripture is just plan wrong; that last part is not a Biblical quote from anywhere in the Bible. I previously told you that God is drawing everyone to Jesus, as everyone is drawn to Him; and it says that God's will is that none should perish but many still do; this is as clear as day, and, so, if that is clear, then you need to check yourself and look at the context somewhere to see the error in your translation. Usually, people correct after receiving correction but you wont. Therefore you're doing something that is malicious in the eyes of God and you're advised to stop. Your quote is likely something that Jesus said in reaction to people not listening to Him, during a moment of teaching, so John 3:16 could be correct. In otherwards, and another way, no one can be without excuse at the same time as they been blocked from a means that would have saved them from their own peril.

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Iron_Tiger

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#27930  Edited By Iron_Tiger

Whomever claims "God is perfect and has never committed an act of evil nor sin," are delusional and haven't read nor understood the Bible; they are straight-up lying. They've never seen a "holy miracle made by God," nor have they ever seen or has a vision from "God."

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JaylinFreeman

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Whomever claims "God is perfect and has never committed an act of evil nor sin," are delusional and haven't read nor understood the Bible; they are straight-up lying. They've never seen a "holy miracle made by God," nor have they ever seen or has a vision from "God."

There are plenty of Christians who came to that conclusion and read the bible thoroughly, so if you don't me mind asking what made you come to that statement?

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SpareHeadOne

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@dshipp17:

This is a case where you need to look at the Scripture in context, as Romans 9 says that God hardens whom he will and many people were prepared for destruction, Paul says that if you think this is unfair you should shut up and not question the Creator; if that's the case, then your interpretation or application of the Scripture is just plan wrong; most of what you say is not a Biblical quote from anywhere in the Bible. I previously told you that God doesn't draw everyone to Jesus, as not everyone is drawn to Him; and it says that God's will is that none should perish but he still blinds eyes to truth and gives over to depravity; this is as clear as day, and, so, if that is clear, then you need to check yourself and look at the context somewhere to see the error in your translation. Usually, people correct after receiving correction but you wont. Therefore you're doing something that is malicious in the eyes of God and you're advised to stop. Your quote is likely something that Jesus said in reaction to people not listening to Him, during a moment of teaching, so John 3:16 could be correct. In otherwards, and another way, no one can be without excuse at the same time as they been blocked from a means that would have saved therm from their own peril.

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Iron_Tiger

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@jaylinfreeman: I've done my share of studies. It's factually wrong, per the Bible, to claim "God is perfect."

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@jaylinfreeman: I've done my share of studies. It's factually wrong, per the Bible, to claim "God is perfect."

Yes, but based on what evidence if you don't mind me asking?

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dshipp17

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#27935  Edited By dshipp17

@spareheadone said:

@dshipp17:

This is a case where you need to look at the Scripture in context, as Romans 9 says that God hardens whom he will and many people were prepared for destruction, Paul says that if you think this is unfair you should shut up and not question the Creator; if that's the case, then your interpretation or application of the Scripture is just plan wrong; most of what you say is not a Biblical quote from anywhere in the Bible. I previously told you that God doesn't draw everyone to Jesus, as not everyone is drawn to Him; and it says that God's will is that none should perish but he still blinds eyes to truth and gives over to depravity; this is as clear as day, and, so, if that is clear, then you need to check yourself and look at the context somewhere to see the error in your translation. Usually, people correct after receiving correction but you wont. Therefore you're doing something that is malicious in the eyes of God and you're advised to stop. Your quote is likely something that Jesus said in reaction to people not listening to Him, during a moment of teaching, so John 3:16 could be correct. In otherwards, and another way, no one can be without excuse at the same time as they been blocked from a means that would have saved therm from their own peril.

Quote in Romans where such is said; now, instead of relying on Scripture and receiving correction, you start paraphrasing things that I wrote, but, with your worldview, where you don't want to confirm to the teachings of the mainstream church; you know that this stuff is just non-Bible nonsense. God's will is that non-perish but none will be without excuse on Judgment Day, Romans 1:20; if what you were saying were true, then there would be an excuse available.

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Iron_Tiger

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#27938  Edited By Iron_Tiger

@jaylinfreeman: I've already posted the reason. EDIT: Read my posts on this thread...

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/off-topic-5/if-the-world-could-only-have-one-religion-exist-wh-2053185/

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@dshipp17:

@dshipp17:

Psalm 37:23

The steps of a man are ordered by the LORD, and He delights in his way.

Proverbs 16:1

The plans of the heart belong to man, but the reply of the tongue is from the LORD.

Proverbs 16:8

Better a little with righteousness than great gain with injustice.

Proverbs 19:21

Many plans are in a man's heart, but the purpose of the LORD will prevail.

Jeremiah 10:23

I know, O LORD, that a man's way is not his own; no one who walks directs his own steps.

Proverbs 16:1

The plans of the heart belong to man, but the reply of the tongue is from the LORD.

Proverbs 16:9

A man's heart plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.

Proverbs 20:24

A man's steps are from the LORD, so how can anyone understand his own way?

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just_sayin

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@just_sayin:

What was the universe made of?

Particles

What makes you alive?

The 7 life processes are present in me

Is God light?

God said let there be light, so he existed before it, so, light might describe Him, but He is distinct from the light we see.

You are not The Father but you make up The Son because you are a manifestation of The Spirit

That would be weird if I was Jesus cause Jesus tried to hit me. That would mean I was beating myself up. I have a "spirit" and God's Spirit can move in and upon me. But I am not the Holy Spirit. Since the Holy Spirit is the expression of God's creative power, I guess, in a general created sense, you could say I am a manifestation of the Spirit.

1. Then how can you assume that Israel was in the wrong itself concerning the Census if the text does not say that they was in the wrong and only that David had committed sin and in turn caused guilt to come unto Israel for his wrongdoing ?

2 Samuel 24 suggests that God was already angry with Israel for their conduct. But let's assume it isn't. Again, there is a need to distinguish how God rewards/punishes individuals as opposed to groups. David, is the leader of Israel (the group). His actions have a greater weight than another individual who is merely a follower of the king. Maybe this is why Chronicles spends so much time talking about how which kings did what was right and wrong in the eyes of the Lord.

Again, I ask, do you feel that a referee is wrong to "punish" a wrestler who won his match by declaring the opposing team the victory based on the number of points they scored? This is a situation of how an individual is evaluated based on his role and yet is also part of a group and as part of the group is evaluated according to those rules. Why can't God judge individuals by their individual responses and groups according to their responses?

2. No Joab does not. In the NIV and ESV both passages say that David's sin would cause guilt upon the nation of Israel, that is because of the sin that David had committed and been incited to commit. Joab was speaking how David's sin would cause the guilt to be on Israel and they would be in trouble on the strength of what David was doing.

OK I had to pull out Jamieson, Faussett, and Brown citation (they are a respected source on Old Testament translation and interpretation). They suggest your interpretation might be right.

https://www.christianity.com/bible/commentary.php?com=jfb&b=13&c=21

Again, I will point you to the Exodus passage which does indicate that the people had to do certain things when a census was taken - ie make an offering. Failure to do this would lead to the nation being judged.

3. It makes no difference, GOD punished Israel for the Sin that David had committed. It's specifically stated directly in 1 Chronicles 21:7. Your analogy serves no purpose here. I already went over how 2 Samuel 24 is fishy because if GOD is angry at Israel beforehand then why is GOD not punishing Israel beforehand instead of GOD inciting David to Sin by unlawfully taking a Census as the passage indicates and then punishing them ? It makes no sense unless the Sin of David is what caused GOD to punish Israel then.

My understanding is God is using the situation with David to punish Israel. Are you upset about the timing? That seems pretty trivial and inconsequential.

You seem to think that God could not have had multiple reasons to judge Israel. I don't understand why you think that.

4. It goes against GOD's character though. It's one thing for GOD to bring suffering to a community. It's another thing for GOD to kill thousands because a person decides to do something unlawful. That is and has been the issue. Like I said, you can survive suffering or pain and come out of it stronger but if you are killed off and destroyed, how do you grow from that ?

If I am part of the group, when the group prospers I am part of that, and when the group suffers I'm part of that too. Again, it seems you are wanting to claim that God is unfair for judging a group by the rules he laid out for the group and claim that he is immoral for not using the standard for judging an individual.

If God can cause someone who hasn't done anything wrong to suffer and it not be immoral for Him to do so, then if God punishes a group for its collective conduct, how has He done anything immoral? And just who among us is without sin? I don't think that God has gone against His character, but that you are conflating two different categories - individuals and groups and not recognizing God has different ways of judging the two.

I will respond to what you said, but I think it is branching off into another discussion. The punishment of the wicked - even those killed can serve as an example of what not to do:

Later, God condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and turned them into heaps of ashes. He made them an example of what will happen to ungodly people. - 2 Peter 2:6 NLT

5. Well that's interesting. If you see that Israel could not do anything to impede GOD's wrath concerning the Census that David was incited to do. Then essentially there was no redemption possible or no way to avoid penalty even though the Sin was done by something else. Then again, essentially David had Israel screwed by his actions.

Your claim assumes 1) Israel hadn't already made God angry (but they had - 2 Samuel 24:1), 2) That every Israel followed the guidelines of offering a sacrifice upon being counted, 3) That the people had not gone against God's warnings not to appoint a king in the first place. All of which are not true.

What if all of those things were not true? Who knows? I don't know, that's not the set of circumstances presented in the text.

6. Well lets look at 2 Samuel 24 then, this is 2 Samuel 24:1 "Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel and he ( GOD ) incited David against them saying "Go and take a Census of Israel and Judah". NIV

Now what does that seem like is happening there ? GOD incited David to take a Census of Israel and Judah which would have been unlawful. GOD cause David to Sin because he wanted to punish Israel. Again, as I have said this passage is Fishy as Hell. Also Galatians 6:5 is a pipebomb to your argument. To say "For we are each responsible for our conduct" and then to argue that GOD can kill thousands for the Sin of essentially one man's conduct is very contradictory.

No it is not contradictory, one deals with the role of individual, the other looks at groups. Galatians 6:5 - yep, I should have picked a better verse and cited it out of context. The actual context of Galatians 6:5 is that we are not to rescue people from the everyday "burdens" they encounter. The Galatians 6:5 verse is in contrast with the earlier verses where the people were to help those with "heavy burdens" that no one was expected to carry alone.

Do you not see a distinction in how one would treat or evaluate an individual versus how one would treat or evaluate a group?

Again, David made his own decision. God does not tempt us to sin:

When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; - James 1:13 NLT

It seems like "inciting" is more like God did not prevent David from doing what David wanted to do.

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FireStarLord73194

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@spareheadone: that scripture at Jeremiah means that man’s heart cannot be relied upon, due to our inherited imperfect nature. Ergo, “follow your heart” is looked down upon as sound advice because “the heart is more treacherous than anything else and desperate.” (Jeremiah 17:9) God “determines” our steps not by literally predetermining every move we make like we are “puppets” but rather by offering us His direction and guidance through his Word. Hence the reason God’s word is called “a lamp to my foot and a light for my path” (Psalm 119:105) When we choose to follow it we are being directed by Him. He “determines our steps” in a sense because he’s the one that set the standard of right and wrong. Your right God does draw us, but not haphazardly and without regard for our individual heart conditions. Relationships are a two way street, that still requires us to exert effort and make a choice, and we cannot expect that God will continue drawing us if we choose to reject that invitation. Hence the reason why Joshua told the Israelites “choose for yourselves today whom you will serve” (Josh 24:15)

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SpareHeadOne

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@just_sayin:

There was only God

Then the heavens and earth were created

There were no particles

Then particles were created

What did God use to make the heavens and earth and particles?

The bible says God is Light

You are not Jesus. You are part of The Son just as Jesus is the Head of The Son.

You are made of God and your Life is God and you are the body of God, the temple of God.

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SpareHeadOne

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@firestarlord73194:

God knows everything that will happen.

Not only so.

God predestined everything to happen.

God is not a victim of your choices.

God is sovereign over your choices.

God has mercy on whom ever he wills and God hardens whomever he wills according to his purpose.

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King Saturn

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@king_saturn said:

1. Then how can you assume that Israel was in the wrong itself concerning the Census if the text does not say that they was in the wrong and only that David had committed sin and in turn caused guilt to come unto Israel for his wrongdoing ?

2 Samuel 24 suggests that God was already angry with Israel for their conduct. But let's assume it isn't. Again, there is a need to distinguish how God rewards/punishes individuals as opposed to groups. David, is the leader of Israel (the group). His actions have a greater weight than another individual who is merely a follower of the king. Maybe this is why Chronicles spends so much time talking about how which kings did what was right and wrong in the eyes of the Lord.

Again, I ask, do you feel that a referee is wrong to "punish" a wrestler who won his match by declaring the opposing team the victory based on the number of points they scored? This is a situation of how an individual is evaluated based on his role and yet is also part of a group and as part of the group is evaluated according to those rules. Why can't God judge individuals by their individual responses and groups according to their responses?

2. No Joab does not. In the NIV and ESV both passages say that David's sin would cause guilt upon the nation of Israel, that is because of the sin that David had committed and been incited to commit. Joab was speaking how David's sin would cause the guilt to be on Israel and they would be in trouble on the strength of what David was doing.

OK I had to pull out Jamieson, Faussett, and Brown citation (they are a respected source on Old Testament translation and interpretation). They suggest your interpretation might be right.

https://www.christianity.com/bible/commentary.php?com=jfb&b=13&c=21

Again, I will point you to the Exodus passage which does indicate that the people had to do certain things when a census was taken - ie make an offering. Failure to do this would lead to the nation being judged.

3. It makes no difference, GOD punished Israel for the Sin that David had committed. It's specifically stated directly in 1 Chronicles 21:7. Your analogy serves no purpose here. I already went over how 2 Samuel 24 is fishy because if GOD is angry at Israel beforehand then why is GOD not punishing Israel beforehand instead of GOD inciting David to Sin by unlawfully taking a Census as the passage indicates and then punishing them ? It makes no sense unless the Sin of David is what caused GOD to punish Israel then.

My understanding is God is using the situation with David to punish Israel. Are you upset about the timing? That seems pretty trivial and inconsequential.

You seem to think that God could not have had multiple reasons to judge Israel. I don't understand why you think that.

4. It goes against GOD's character though. It's one thing for GOD to bring suffering to a community. It's another thing for GOD to kill thousands because a person decides to do something unlawful. That is and has been the issue. Like I said, you can survive suffering or pain and come out of it stronger but if you are killed off and destroyed, how do you grow from that ?

If I am part of the group, when the group prospers I am part of that, and when the group suffers I'm part of that too. Again, it seems you are wanting to claim that God is unfair for judging a group by the rules he laid out for the group and claim that he is immoral for not using the standard for judging an individual.

If God can cause someone who hasn't done anything wrong to suffer and it not be immoral for Him to do so, then if God punishes a group for its collective conduct, how has He done anything immoral? And just who among us is without sin? I don't think that God has gone against His character, but that you are conflating two different categories - individuals and groups and not recognizing God has different ways of judging the two.

I will respond to what you said, but I think it is branching off into another discussion. The punishment of the wicked - even those killed can serve as an example of what not to do:

Later, God condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and turned them into heaps of ashes. He made them an example of what will happen to ungodly people. - 2 Peter 2:6 NLT

5. Well that's interesting. If you see that Israel could not do anything to impede GOD's wrath concerning the Census that David was incited to do. Then essentially there was no redemption possible or no way to avoid penalty even though the Sin was done by something else. Then again, essentially David had Israel screwed by his actions.

Your claim assumes 1) Israel hadn't already made God angry (but they had - 2 Samuel 24:1), 2) That every Israel followed the guidelines of offering a sacrifice upon being counted, 3) That the people had not gone against God's warnings not to appoint a king in the first place. All of which are not true.

What if all of those things were not true? Who knows? I don't know, that's not the set of circumstances presented in the text.

6. Well lets look at 2 Samuel 24 then, this is 2 Samuel 24:1 "Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel and he ( GOD ) incited David against them saying "Go and take a Census of Israel and Judah". NIV

Now what does that seem like is happening there ? GOD incited David to take a Census of Israel and Judah which would have been unlawful. GOD cause David to Sin because he wanted to punish Israel. Again, as I have said this passage is Fishy as Hell. Also Galatians 6:5 is a pipebomb to your argument. To say "For we are each responsible for our conduct" and then to argue that GOD can kill thousands for the Sin of essentially one man's conduct is very contradictory.

No it is not contradictory, one deals with the role of individual, the other looks at groups. Galatians 6:5 - yep, I should have picked a better verse and cited it out of context. The actual context of Galatians 6:5 is that we are not to rescue people from the everyday "burdens" they encounter. The Galatians 6:5 verse is in contrast with the earlier verses where the people were to help those with "heavy burdens" that no one was expected to carry alone.

Do you not see a distinction in how one would treat or evaluate an individual versus how one would treat or evaluate a group?

Again, David made his own decision. God does not tempt us to sin:

When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; - James 1:13 NLT

It seems like "inciting" is more like God did not prevent David from doing what David wanted to do.

1. 2 Samuel 24 also has GOD inciting David to go take a Census that was unlawful. How is this passage even reliable when it has GOD causing David to Sin against him ? That makes no sense. Especially when you consider that it was this Sin that prompted GOD to punish Israel and nothing else that is eluded to. If GOD was angry at Israel beforehand, then there is no reason for GOD to incite David to take a Census or Satan to incite David to take a census. I notice you lean heavily on the 2 Samuel 24 version of the story but hardly mention how Satan incited David to take a Census in 1 Chronicles 21.

I don't know why you keep using this Wrestling analogy when it's not on topic. I will deal with your last statement though. Well, what is the Group ( Israel ) responses here ? All Israel did was go along with what David had declared them to do by taking a Census. I asked you earlier what could Israel do to avoid taking a Census and being caught guilty within this sin of David and you said nothing about it. So what exactly are we getting at here ? I still see David being the one man whose Sin caused Catastrophe for 70,000 People and it should not have been so. That's assuming GOD's character is truly merciful and has ultimate wisdom as the Bible often speaks of.

2. Okay, but either passage does not say that the Israelites had not done what was required of them. The only thing both passages 2 Samuel 24 and 1 Chronicles 21 are clear on is that David's sin lead to this massive disaster cause by GOD here. You can say that GOD was angry with Israel beforehand but what then is the point of inciting David to sin when GOD was well within his rights to punish Israel without the Sin of what David had done ? What would have been wrong with GOD having Gad the Prophet come to David and saying "David, the Israelites have sinned greatly against the LORD and on this night many will be smitten for their trespasses". This entire discussion dies if those words are in the Bible instead of a couple of stories of GOD killing off 70,000 People because he had David incited to take a Census.

3. Again, this does not make sense. It's not just the timing. It's the entire situation. What the hell sense does it make for GOD to incite David to Sin so you can punish Israel when you could punish Israel without causing David to sin ? The passages are clear David is incited to do this Sin by either GOD himself or Satan depending on which passage you believe. Why would the Bible even include these words if not they was important to the situation ? If it was just David wanting to take a Census unlawfully then why even having anything in the Bible about GOD or Satan inciting David in this event ?

4. No, I am claiming it's against GOD's nature to punish thousands for the mistake of one person. Yes, GOD can cause pain or suffering to a community but to have thousands killed because David takes a Census is indeed unfair.

5. Well, perhaps Israel did make GOD angry, the problem is why is GOD causing David to sin here ? That's the issue the passage falls apart because it's not logical that GOD would incite David to sin. It's against GOD's nature to cause someone to Sin especially someone who believes in him like David did. The passage is fishy.

6. What in the blue whales is you talking about ? The passage in 2 Samuel 24 is clear. It says that GOD incited David to go and take a Census of Israel and Judah. The definition of Incited is to encourage or stir up. Why is GOD encouraging David to sin by taking a Census ? That Makes No Sense.

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dshipp17

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#27945  Edited By dshipp17

@spareheadone said:

@dshipp17:

@dshipp17:

Psalm 37:23

The steps of a man are ordered by the LORD, and He delights in his way.

Proverbs 16:1

The plans of the heart belong to man, but the reply of the tongue is from the LORD.

Proverbs 16:8

Better a little with righteousness than great gain with injustice.

Proverbs 19:21

Many plans are in a man's heart, but the purpose of the LORD will prevail.

Jeremiah 10:23

I know, O LORD, that a man's way is not his own; no one who walks directs his own steps.

Proverbs 16:1

The plans of the heart belong to man, but the reply of the tongue is from the LORD.

Proverbs 16:9

A man's heart plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.

Proverbs 20:24

A man's steps are from the LORD, so how can anyone understand his own way?

Here are some examples of free will in action:

Genesis 2:9; 16-17: And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil; and the Lord God commanded the man, saying, of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Genesis 4:6-7: And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Joshua 24:15: And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

Mark 8:34: And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

John 7:17: If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

1 Corinthians 10:13-14: There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.

Galatians 5:13-15: For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another; for all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself; but if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

2 Peter 3:9: The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance;

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just_sayin

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@just_sayin:

What did God use to make the heavens and earth and particles?

God made the universe ex nihilo (out of nothing) - Hebrews 11:3

The bible says God is Light

The Bible also says "He will cover you with his feathers" (Psalms 91:4), but God isn't a chicken either dude. Similes and metaphors abound in the Bible. God made the light, He is distinct from the light. When there was no light - God was.

You are not Jesus. You are part of The Son just as Jesus is the Head of The Son.

I am a part of the Body of Christ - that's an alliteration, but not an actual physical thing. You aren't an appendix or hemorrhoid of Jesus , Dude.

You are made of God and your Life is God and you are the body of God, the temple of God.

I am made by God. God gave me life and sustains it. I am a temple in an alliterative sense. There aren't little people in me dressed in robes singing in a choir.

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SpareHeadOne

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@just_sayin:

God did not make the universe out of nothing but rather out of something invisible. God used his Word and his Power to create the universe. His Word is God and His Power is God.

The bible says God took bodily form as a dove.

You are a manifestation of The Spirit as you have agreed.

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SpareHeadOne

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@dshipp17:

God commanded Adam that he could freely eat of any tree.

But really God was ordering Adams actions.

Psalm 37:23 The steps of a man are ordered by the LORD, and He delights in his way.

Adam had plans for the garden but really Gods plans were going to happen

Proverbs 19:21 Many plans are in a man's heart, but the purpose of the LORD will prevail.

Adam was actually being directed by God.

Jeremiah 10:23 I know, O LORD, that a man's way is not his own; no one who walks directs his own steps.

Adam thinks he is making plans but it is really God.

Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.

Adam sometimes does things and he can't understand why he did them. God was doing them really.

Proverbs 20:24 A man's steps are from the LORD, so how can anyone understand his own way?

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just_sayin

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@king_saturn said:

1. 2 Samuel 24 also has GOD inciting David to go take a Census that was unlawful. How is this passage even reliable when it has GOD causing David to Sin against him ?

Help me to understand where you are coming from. Scholars in hermeneutics, say that it is not the intention of the author to say that God "made" David take a census, but that God permitted it. Do you disagree with their interpretation?

That makes no sense. Especially when you consider that it was this Sin that prompted GOD to punish Israel and nothing else that is eluded to. If GOD was angry at Israel beforehand, then there is no reason for GOD to incite David to take a Census or Satan to incite David to take a census.

Didn't God promise that he would punish Israel if they took a census and didn't follow His guidelines? I'm struggling to see the problem. Since David was already on going to take a census of his own free will, why couldn't God use that occasion to accomplish His purpose? It seems that the author is conveying God used that occasion as the means to punish Israel. Could He have done it without it? I guess, but we are not told that.

I notice you lean heavily on the 2 Samuel 24 version of the story but hardly mention how Satan incited David to take a Census in 1 Chronicles 21.

I don't understand what the observation suggests. Is there something in the text in 1 Chronicles 21 that you have mentioned that I've overlooked?

I don't know why you keep using this Wrestling analogy when it's not on topic. I will deal with your last statement though. Well, what is the Group ( Israel ) responses here ? All Israel did was go along with what David had declared them to do by taking a Census. I asked you earlier what could Israel do to avoid taking a Census and being caught guilty within this sin of David and you said nothing about it. So what exactly are we getting at here ? I still see David being the one man whose Sin caused Catastrophe for 70,000 People and it should not have been so. That's assuming GOD's character is truly merciful and has ultimate wisdom as the Bible often speaks of.

Several things here. 1) the wrestling analogy is very much on target. The vast majority of hermeneutical scholarship on the issue of God punishing nations is based on the premise that individuals and groups are different and are therefore treated differently. If it helps I can give you an IT analogy. In many programming languages there is the concept of objects (think your shopping cart at Amazon). What you add or take away from your cart only affects your cart. It is its own object that has all the attributes and can do all the things that its "class" can do. However, objects can be part of more than one "class". Think of an individual class and a nation class. Each class has different attributes. When you change the individual class it does not necessarily impact the nation class and vice versa. The object is part of both and impacted by both, but the classes are distinct and must function by the attributes and functions associated with them. Is that better.

Again, what's your take? Do you agree that nations and individuals are judged by the appropriate standards for each by God?

2. Okay, but either passage does not say that the Israelites had not done what was required of them. The only thing both passages 2 Samuel 24 and 1 Chronicles 21 are clear on is that David's sin lead to this massive disaster cause by GOD here. You can say that GOD was angry with Israel beforehand but what then is the point of inciting David to sin when GOD was well within his rights to punish Israel without the Sin of what David had done ? What would have been wrong with GOD having Gad the Prophet come to David and saying "David, the Israelites have sinned greatly against the LORD and on this night many will be smitten for their trespasses". This entire discussion dies if those words are in the Bible instead of a couple of stories of GOD killing off 70,000 People because he had David incited to take a Census.

Who can know about alternate scenarios.

3. Again, this does not make sense. It's not just the timing. It's the entire situation. What the hell sense does it make for GOD to incite David to Sin so you can punish Israel when you could punish Israel without causing David to sin?

David is making his own choices from my understanding. God did not "make" him do what he did, He permitted it. Do you think God instantly punishes individuals or groups when they do wrong? Do thieves always get caught and punished on their very first theft? Do liars always suffer immediately following their first lie? Why couldn't God use the occasion of the census to carry out his judgement?

The passages are clear David is incited to do this Sin by either GOD himself or Satan depending on which passage you believe.

Which do you believe? I think the traditional view is that Satan tempts David and David makes his own choice to conduct a census while God permits this to happen without divine interference.

Why would the Bible even include these words if not they was important to the situation ? If it was just David wanting to take a Census unlawfully then why even having anything in the Bible about GOD or Satan inciting David in this event ?

Don't know but then again I'm not an ancient Hebrew. It seems the story does serve a point, it addresses your original question - why does God judge Israel for David's sin (isn't this David's question to God). It talks about God's judging of sin but His wrath is tempered. It also focuses on David's heart toward God even when he falls short.

4. No, I am claiming it's against GOD's nature to punish thousands for the mistake of one person. Yes, GOD can cause pain or suffering to a community but to have thousands killed because David takes a Census is indeed unfair.

I could again point out that you are missing the distinction in individuals or groups, but you already know you are doing that. I could repeat the observation that the Exodus passage points out that the people had a responsibility to respond a certain way when a census was taken (so it was possible to take a census without God's instructions).

5. Well, perhaps Israel did make GOD angry, the problem is why is GOD causing David to sin here ? That's the issue the passage falls apart because it's not logical that GOD would incite David to sin. It's against GOD's nature to cause someone to Sin especially someone who believes in him like David did. The passage is fishy.

See above. On a personal note, do you think of God as unjust and the cause of your sins? David apparently didn't have that perception. But what is your perception of God?

6. What in the blue whales is you talking about ? The passage in 2 Samuel 24 is clear. It says that GOD incited David to go and take a Census of Israel and Judah. The definition of Incited is to encourage or stir up. Why is GOD encouraging David to sin by taking a Census ? That Makes No Sense.

I thought this answer addressed your questions in point 6:

https://www.gotquestions.org/David-census.html