Religion… What do you think?

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King Saturn

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Joshua 7 is another wonderful book in the Bible. Dude named Achan had stolen some Silver and Gold from The Almighty and GOD had Joshua and all of Israel stone Achan and his Sons and Daughters because The Almighty was really mad about that.

You better not take from The Almighty or you're gonna get Rocked !

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@king_saturn:

He woulda been "Achen" after he got hit with those rocks

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dshipp17

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Matthew 26:6-12; 17-25:

Now when Jesus was in Bethany, in the house of Simon the leper,

7 There came unto him a woman having an alabaster box of very precious ointment, and poured it on his head, as he sat at meat.

8 But when his disciples saw it, they had indignation, saying, To what purpose is this waste?

9 For this ointment might have been sold for much, and given to the poor.

10 When Jesus understood it, he said unto them, Why trouble ye the woman? for she hath wrought a good work upon me.

11 For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always.

12 For in that she hath poured this ointment on my body, she did it for my burial.

Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?

18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.

19 And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover.

20 Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.

21 And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.

22 And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?

23 And he answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me.

24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

25 Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.

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dshipp17

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#27304  Edited By dshipp17

Matthew 26:47-56; 69-75:

And while he yet spake, lo, Judas, one of the twelve, came, and with him a great multitude with swords and staves, from the chief priests and elders of the people.

48 Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast.

49 And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and kissed him.

50 And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus and took him.

51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.

52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

55 In that same hour said Jesus to the multitudes, Are ye come out as against a thief with swords and staves for to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye laid no hold on me.

56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.

Now Peter sat without in the palace: and a damsel came unto him, saying, Thou also wast with Jesus of Galilee.

70 But he denied before them all, saying, I know not what thou sayest.

71 And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and said unto them that were there, This fellow was also with Jesus of Nazareth.

72 And again he denied with an oath, I do not know the man.

73 And after a while came unto him they that stood by, and said to Peter, Surely thou also art one of them; for thy speech bewrayeth thee.

74 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew.

75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

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SpareHeadOne

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Arthur_Morgan

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you all read the same book right?

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SpareHeadOne

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#27308  Edited By dshipp17

@spareheadone said:

@dshipp17:

Jesus ordered Judas to betray him

In all places in the Bible, it pretty explicitly makes clear that Satan filled Judas and caused him to betray Jesus. Aside from what was just said in Matthew, Jesus also refers to Judas as the who who is a devil.

What you're referencing reference might be from one of the Apocrypha books, which, of course, isn't in the Bible, usually for a reason, or just simply blatant misinformation derived from the idea that, because God knows all things, He tasked Judas with this task. But, Jesus invites Judas to be a disciple, perhaps knowing Judas had this potential. But, Jesus's decision is more in reference to God's immense ability to forgive and allowing people the opportunity to repent from their sins at various points throughout their lives before it's everlastingly too late for that specific individual. It's basically all setting up the case against you for the time that you come to be judged by God at the Great White Throne of Judgment.

God will give everyone a chance to make their case, even though they do not appear in the Lamb's Book of Life. You only get into the Lamb's Book of Life by becoming a Christian through sincerity. But, God is just and fair, nonetheless. Even though you have pretty much no prospects outside of the Book of Life, where Jesus also acts as an intercessor on your behalf, everyone will receive a fair trial, as required by God. And, during your trial of trials, God's main concern, first and foremost, will be why you rejected Jesus as your Lord and Savior, at various points throughout your life. And, then, secondly, He's going to go through a list of instances where you basically rebuffed doing good and didn't repent for your behavior.

I was always Christian. but, when I was a younger adult, I can remember the times where I rebuffed going to church or doing things that grieved the Holy Spirit within me (e.g. this was more times than not, having to do with viewing pornography). God was patient and merciful, and understanding. He let me have my fun and, then, reeled me back in, culminating with His chastising me. Given that I've always been Christian, so I don't have much of an alternative perspective, as the Holy Spirit has always been with me and inside of me, I think everyone has a sense of when they're both doing wronging and rebuffing an opportunity to become Christian. And, those people will be begging for mercy, an exception, and another chance, but, it will be too late.

This will be an opportunity for those souls to understand why God's judgment will go a certain way. Basically, God will be offended by the act of souls rejecting Jesus as their Lord and Savior, avoiding the opportunities to become Christian, or putting off the opportunities to become Christian. People fit into one of these categories. I was one who often put of an opportunity or procrastinated in my obligations as a Christian, as I was always Christian. Of course, I renewed my vows a few times in my life, just in case it was necessary; I even feel compelled to go to the alter, during alter call, recently, even though I pray multiple times a day. But, now, it's more a thing of rather I put off saying my long meditative prayer in a given day.

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SpareHeadOne

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@dshipp17:

John 13:26Jesus answered, “It is the one to whom I give this piece of bread after I have dipped it.” Then He dipped the piece of bread and gave it to Judas son of Simon Iscariot. 27And when Judas had taken the piece of bread, Satan entered into him. Then Jesus said to Judas, “What you are about to do, do quickly.” 28But no one at the table knew why Jesus had said this to him.…

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dshipp17

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#27310  Edited By dshipp17

@spareheadone said:

@dshipp17:

John 13:26Jesus answered, “It is the one to whom I give this piece of bread after I have dipped it.” Then He dipped the piece of bread and gave it to Judas son of Simon Iscariot. 27And when Judas had taken the piece of bread, Satan entered into him. Then Jesus said to Judas, “What you are about to do, do quickly.” 28But no one at the table knew why Jesus had said this to him.…

It's a case of free will. John 6:57-71:

As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.

60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Free will; you have free will. Revelation 17:8: The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

2 Peter 3:9: The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

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@dshipp17:

There is no free will.

The bible shows that there is no free will.

Free will is an illusion.

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Matthew 27:1-10; :

When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:

2 And when they had bound him, they led him away, and delivered him to Pontius Pilate the governor.

3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.

5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

6 And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood.

7 And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in.

8 Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day.

9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;

10 And gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord appointed me.

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jonjizz

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with the amount of things we can explain now with science, people who still practice religion remind me a lot of people who practice "doublethink" like in 1984

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"""doublethink

noun

the acceptance of contrary opinions or beliefs at the same time, especially as a result of political indoctrination."""

For example

Regarding science you must learn to think for yourself and think critically. You must agree with the consensus of authorities in science.

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King Saturn

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I always wonder how is it that the Israelites decided to chose Yahweh over the other Canaanite Deities who they worshiped before becoming Monotheistic ? How did El and Yahweh come to merge if they once believed that El and Yahweh was two different entities with El being Yahweh's father ?

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just_sayin

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I always wonder how is it that the Israelites decided to chose Yahweh over the other Canaanite Deities who they worshiped before becoming Monotheistic ? How did El and Yahweh come to merge if they once believed that El and Yahweh was two different entities with El being Yahweh's father ?

A great observation of the problematic JEDP theory. The more obvious problem is that there are not extant documents where one is exclusively J or one exclusively E and biblical narratives of the Torah mix the two and contain the names in conflicting sections and use them interchangeably. Generally Hebraic documents may use either or both terms. If two differing traditions and accounts of creation existed, it would be impossible for a culture whose religion is passed on oral retelling to not have noticed the merging. This too would be problematic for the theory since the Shema is canonized in Deuteronomy and a plurality of gods is out of the question in the Hebraic mindset.

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In the beginning Elohim (gods) created the heavens.

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King Saturn

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I always thought the route of saying Genesis is just Allegory is dangerous. I mean if you think that this is true then how do you determine what can be taken literally from the Bible and what can not ? Who is to say that the Gospels are not Allegory then ?

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@king_saturn:

Assuming allegory, what would be the underlying truth behind Genesis and behind the gospels ?

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@king_saturn:

Assuming allegory, what would be the underlying truth behind Genesis and behind the gospels ?

No Idea on both accounts, I was always under the impression they had to be at least mostly truth in terms of historical context otherwise the Bible falls apart as Genesis is the foundation for what is supposedly the beginning of how things was with the Creator and the Gospels are essential to a current Relationship with the Creator.

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#27323  Edited By dshipp17

@spareheadone said:

@dshipp17:

There is no free will.

The bible shows that there is no free will.

Free will is an illusion.

There is free will. I just quoted a few Scriptures that show it plain as day. I know that you think you've come up with an interesting thought experiment that no one has deeply considered, but, it just doesn't jive with reality. There is the Book of Life and there is the Lamb's Book of Life; the Book of Life was written from the foundation of creation, but, the Lamb's Book of Life is like that paradoxical wrinkle in time that allows free will to cause history to be re-written, when taking your thought experiment to a mechanical level of consideration. And, it's in place, because it is God's will that none should perish. Case in point, in the Old Testament, there were times when God had judged the Israelites for a conclusive doom, but, instead of carrying it out, He patiently waited for them to repent of their sins; He could have moved in, at any time, and often did, but He was also patient; and, it was at this point, that Jesus's rescue was prophesied.

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dshipp17

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#27324  Edited By dshipp17
@king_saturn said:

I always thought the route of saying Genesis is just Allegory is dangerous. I mean if you think that this is true then how do you determine what can be taken literally from the Bible and what can not ? Who is to say that the Gospels are not Allegory then ?

This position is dangerous and is rejected by the vast majority of the scholarly Christian community. There is conclusive evidence provided in the scholarly Christian community that shows that Genesis is literally true. Genesis is pretty much a description of events, as they occurred; thus, it's hard to see how some people can come up with the description being an allegory; there's just no real hint of that even being the case. This is an example of people trying to fit into a crowd and frame of mind that is otherwise incompatible with their worldview; not much different from a child being raised with discipline in prep to go to college or university, but deciding to hang out with the gangsters, in order to be cool and fit in; those are such sad occasions to behold, while it's in progress.

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@dshipp17 said:
@king_saturn said:

I always thought the route of saying Genesis is just Allegory is dangerous. I mean if you think that this is true then how do you determine what can be taken literally from the Bible and what can not ? Who is to say that the Gospels are not Allegory then ?

This position is dangerous and is rejected by the vast majority of the scholarly Christian community. There is conclusive evidence provided in the scholarly Christian community that shows that Genesis is literally true. Genesis is pretty much a description of events, as they occurred; thus, it's hard to see how some people can come up with the description being an allegory; there's just no real hint of that even being the case. This is an example of people trying to fit into a crowd and frame of mind that is otherwise incompatible with their worldview; not much different from a child being raised with discipline in prep to go to college or university, but deciding to hang out with the gangsters, in order to be cool and fit in; those are such said occasions to behold, while it's in progress.

I don't know about this. I mean there are a lot of people who are in the Christian community who are starting to shift on Creation story in Genesis. This is not even considering those who might find some of the variables in Genesis being a bit too abstract to take seriously like a talking serpent for example.

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@king_saturn:

God is experiencing your life through you.

Not Yahweh but The Spirit, Life, Consciousness.

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@dshipp17:

It's not a thought experiment

It's called Calvinism

It's called not ignoring difficult verses of scripture

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Matthew 27:19-25; 45-66:

When he was set down on the judgment seat, his wife sent unto him, saying, Have thou nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him.

20 But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask Barabbas, and destroy Jesus.

21 The governor answered and said unto them, Whether of the twain will ye that I release unto you? They said, Barabbas.

22 Pilate saith unto them, What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ? They all say unto him, Let him be crucified.

23 And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified.

24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.

25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.

46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias.

48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink.

49 The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

55 And many women were there beholding afar off, which followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him:

56 Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedees children.

57 When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple:

58 He went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered.

59 And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth,

60 And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.

61 And there was Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary, sitting over against the sepulchre.

62 Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,

63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.

64 Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.

65 Pilate said unto them, Ye have a watch: go your way, make it as sure as ye can.

66 So they went, and made the sepulchre sure, sealing the stone, and setting a watch.

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King Saturn

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@king_saturn:

God is experiencing your life through you.

Not Yahweh but The Spirit, Life, Consciousness.

This almost sounds like references to the Holy Spirit.

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#27331  Edited By dshipp17

@king_saturn said:
@dshipp17 said:
@king_saturn said:

I always thought the route of saying Genesis is just Allegory is dangerous. I mean if you think that this is true then how do you determine what can be taken literally from the Bible and what can not ? Who is to say that the Gospels are not Allegory then ?

This position is dangerous and is rejected by the vast majority of the scholarly Christian community. There is conclusive evidence provided in the scholarly Christian community that shows that Genesis is literally true. Genesis is pretty much a description of events, as they occurred; thus, it's hard to see how some people can come up with the description being an allegory; there's just no real hint of that even being the case. This is an example of people trying to fit into a crowd and frame of mind that is otherwise incompatible with their worldview; not much different from a child being raised with discipline in prep to go to college or university, but deciding to hang out with the gangsters, in order to be cool and fit in; those are such said occasions to behold, while it's in progress.

I don't know about this. I mean there are a lot of people who are in the Christian community who are starting to shift on Creation story in Genesis. This is not even considering those who might find some of the variables in Genesis being a bit too abstract to take seriously like a talking serpent for example.

I didn't just say the Christian community, I said the scholarly Christian community; the momentum is now going back the other way, once the Christian community is informed about the real findings that are available.

While the Serpent is likely an allegory to something else, that's entirely different from the expansive suggestion that you were making that the entire Book of Genesis was an allegory by nature; there are hundreds of citings in Genesis other than the Serpent that show the Book is, for the most part, a long description of what happened at the beginning, but where the detailed description starts with Noah, and, then, leaps to Abraham; but, as I'm reading Genesis again, right now, I did find a mistake in a prior comment; the Bible does give a bit of detail where the Gentiles started to diverge from the Jews, as it was were the Bible described the generations, after Noah; but, still, it is a mystery as to why God became upset with the Gentiles; instead of the point where I referenced, it seems to have occurred during those 400 years between the end of Genesis and the beginning of Exodus, where Gentiles developed a rift with God, but might have been occurring in Genesis.

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@king_saturn:

Yeah Holy Spirit and Brahman being the same thing

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jonjizz

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#27333  Edited By jonjizz

it's 2019, let's count the amount of real spiritual/supernatural things actually discovered by any and all religions, just to see their actual contribution to humanity in terms of knowledge.

RELIGIONS spiritual/supernatural contribution to human knowledge (proven real) = 0

now, let's detract some points for all the misinformation spread and knowledge lost in history because of religions...

RELIGIONS overall contribution to human knowledge = -276341871649127

oooh would you look at that? last place... looks like nothing has ever caused as much misinformation and lack of knowledge to humanity as religion did... oh well, better luck next year guys!

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@dshipp17 said:
@king_saturn said:
@dshipp17 said:
@king_saturn said:

I always thought the route of saying Genesis is just Allegory is dangerous. I mean if you think that this is true then how do you determine what can be taken literally from the Bible and what can not ? Who is to say that the Gospels are not Allegory then ?

This position is dangerous and is rejected by the vast majority of the scholarly Christian community. There is conclusive evidence provided in the scholarly Christian community that shows that Genesis is literally true. Genesis is pretty much a description of events, as they occurred; thus, it's hard to see how some people can come up with the description being an allegory; there's just no real hint of that even being the case. This is an example of people trying to fit into a crowd and frame of mind that is otherwise incompatible with their worldview; not much different from a child being raised with discipline in prep to go to college or university, but deciding to hang out with the gangsters, in order to be cool and fit in; those are such said occasions to behold, while it's in progress.

I don't know about this. I mean there are a lot of people who are in the Christian community who are starting to shift on Creation story in Genesis. This is not even considering those who might find some of the variables in Genesis being a bit too abstract to take seriously like a talking serpent for example.

I didn't just say the Christian community, I said the scholarly Christian community; the momentum is now going back the other way, once the Christian community is informed about the real findings that are available.

While the Serpent is likely an allegory to something else, that's entirely different from the expansive suggestion that you were making that the entire Book of Genesis was an allegory by nature; there are hundreds of citings in Genesis other than the Serpent that show the Book is, for the most part, a long description of what happened at the beginning, but where the detailed description starts with Noah, and, then, leaps to Abraham; but, as I'm reading Genesis again, right now, I did find a mistake in a prior comment; the Bible does give a bit of detail where the Gentiles started to diverge from the Jews, as it was were the Bible described the generations, after Noah; but, still, it is a mystery as to why God became upset with the Gentiles; instead of the point where I referenced, it seems to have occurred during those 400 years between the end of Genesis and the beginning of Exodus, where Gentiles developed a rift with God, but might have been occurring in Genesis.

The scholarly Christian community is a part of the Christian community so I am not sure why you make a distinction. Some Christians are more educated on the Literature obviously but they are still supposedly Christians.

The Talking Serpent was merely an example I gave of what even believers point to and say Genesis could be considered Allegory. I think you are missing the bigger point here, even if believers consider some parts in Genesis as Fact, if they see other parts in Genesis as Allegory it still hurts the nature of what they believe as GOD would not be all the way truthful in what he is conveying to us in terms of what happened.

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The Serpent is the Soul

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King Saturn

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Genesis 18 is interesting, I mean did GOD literally visit Abraham as a Visitor in a physical body as the text eludes to or was something else going on ? Also in Genesis 18:20-21, you have GOD saying that the sin of Sodam and Gomorrah is so bad that he would go down himself to see if it is as bad as the outcry of the city that reached him. Then you have GOD saying if the outcry isn't not as bad then he will know.

Stuff like this always made me wonder if The Almighty really is Omniscient or is he just playing games.

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FireStarLord73194

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@king_saturn: angels visited Abraham. They are sent on God’s behalf and share his message. John 1:18 says “no man has seen God at any time.”

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@king_saturn: angels visited Abraham. They are sent on God’s behalf and share his message. John 1:18 says “no man has seen God at any time.”

Genesis 18 explicitly uses The LORD when the Three Visitors come to Abraham they never use Angel of the LORD

Genesis 18:1 "The LORD appeared unto him (Abraham) in the plains of Mamre and he sat in the tent door."

Genesis 18:16-17 "When the men got up to Leave, they looked down toward Sodam and Abraham walked along side them on their way. Then the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do".

Genesis 18:20-21 "The the LORD said the outcry of Sodam and Gomorrah is great and their sin so grievous that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as what that has reached me. If not, I will know"

In Genesis 19, we see the use of Angel in the text, so it is made clear the passage is talking about GOD coming down in some form to speak with Abraham as the text could clarify Angels being with Abraham instead.

another one,

Genesis 18:22 "The Men turned away and went towards Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the LORD"

It appears as though Two of the Visitors was Angels and the other was The LORD in some form.

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FireStarLord73194

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@king_saturn: you have to put it in context with what the rest of the Bible says. It does indeed say the Lord came down that is correct, however that doesn’t mean it was actually him. Think about how a boss may use a secretary to write a letter, the letter is addressed from him and not the secretary even though the secretary is who physically wrote it. The Bible is clear when it says “no man has seen God at ANY time” (John 1:18, “any time” would include this meeting with Abraham) and Exodus 33:20 says “no man can see my face (God) and YET LIVE.”

Another example would be with Moses and the flaming thornbush at Exodus chapter 3. Exodus 3:4 says “God called to him out of the thornbush” however verse 2 says it was God’s angel. If we put the entirety of the scriptures into context what is meant is that God’s message was related THROUGH an angel, thus it can be said that the two parties involved in the conversation were Moses and God even though God wasn’t physically there. It is the same with the angels that visited Abraham.

Finally 2 Chronicles 6:18 says “but will God really dwell with mankind on the Earth? Look! The heavens, yes the heaven OF THE HEAVENS cannot contain you...” God cannot be contained on the Earth nor in space, he does not take up 3 dimensional space because he’s beyond that. So when we take the rest of the scriptures into context we see it would have been an angel, not God himself who appeared to Abraham at Genesis 18

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The Angel of The Lord is God manifest in lower form.

The Dove that landed on Jesus is God manifested in lower form

Jesus is God manifested in lower form.

No one has seen God in all his glory.

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J-man717

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God is real, that's why many bible propechies have already come true.

If God isn't, then what created time? God did. God is limitless, he cant be limited by any concept, he transcends logic itself.

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#27342  Edited By King Saturn

@firestarlord73194 said:

@king_saturn: you have to put it in context with what the rest of the Bible says. It does indeed say the Lord came down that is correct, however that doesn’t mean it was actually him. Think about how a boss may use a secretary to write a letter, the letter is addressed from him and not the secretary even though the secretary is who physically wrote it. The Bible is clear when it says “no man has seen God at ANY time” (John 1:18, “any time” would include this meeting with Abraham) and Exodus 33:20 says “no man can see my face (God) and YET LIVE.”

Another example would be with Moses and the flaming thornbush at Exodus chapter 3. Exodus 3:4 says “God called to him out of the thornbush” however verse 2 says it was God’s angel. If we put the entirety of the scriptures into context what is meant is that God’s message was related THROUGH an angel, thus it can be said that the two parties involved in the conversation were Moses and God even though God wasn’t physically there. It is the same with the angels that visited Abraham.

Finally 2 Chronicles 6:18 says “but will God really dwell with mankind on the Earth? Look! The heavens, yes the heaven OF THE HEAVENS cannot contain you...” God cannot be contained on the Earth nor in space, he does not take up 3 dimensional space because he’s beyond that. So when we take the rest of the scriptures into context we see it would have been an angel, not God himself who appeared to Abraham at Genesis 18

So the context is that The Bible does not mean what it says ? Because if the Bible is saying that The LORD came down to Abraham and it's not actually him, first of all, how do you know that this was not The LORD in some form when the passage clearly says multiple times that it was The LORD there ? Your analogy with the Secretary is flawed because a Secretary is not identified as the Boss even if she has a Message from the Boss, the passage clearly says it was The LORD and not an Angel of the LORD or an Angel as stated in other passages in Genesis. Perhaps GOD can create an Avatar for himself I would think his Omnipotence would allow such things.

But that's Exodus, and Exodus makes it clear what was happening there, why assume that it has to be all Angels when the passage makes it clear that The LORD was there as a Visitor ? I take it you don't believe Jesus is GOD then ? Because Jesus was contained on Earth.

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FireStarLord73194

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@king_saturn: I know this is not some avatar because the Bible says God cannot be contained by anything in the heavens or on the Earth, and that it is impossible to see God and live as I have explained from the scriptures I mentioned. To say God can create an avatar and leave heaven is to ignore those verses. You misunderstood my analogy, my point is the person in charge (God/the boss) is credited as being the party that penned the letter or message even though they are speaking through someone else and wasn’t the one to physically do it. It’s not deceptive to say it was the lord even though it wasn’t actually him. The angel conveyed God’s message and thinking, therefore it’s as if God was there in Abraham’s presence.

And no I don’t believe Jesus is God. Jesus worshipped the Father just as humanity worshiped the father. Paul wrote “there is actually to us One God, the FATHER” (1 Corinthians 8:6) and Jesus called the Father “the only true God” (John 17:1-3) Therefore I only recognize the Father as God. However I do believe Jesus is the Christ, or Messiah. The chosen one that will accomplish God’s purposes and the Son and that only through exercising faith in Jesus and his teachings can a person come into a favorable relationship with God.

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#27344  Edited By King Saturn

@firestarlord73194 said:

@king_saturn: I know this is not some avatar because the Bible says God cannot be contained by anything in the heavens or on the Earth, and that it is impossible to see God and live as I have explained from the scriptures I mentioned. To say God can create an avatar and leave heaven is to ignore those verses. You misunderstood my analogy, my point is the person in charge (God/the boss) is credited as being the party that penned the letter or message even though they are speaking through someone else and wasn’t the one to physically do it. It’s not deceptive to say it was the lord even though it wasn’t actually him. The angel conveyed God’s message and thinking, therefore it’s as if God was there in Abraham’s presence.

And no I don’t believe Jesus is God. Jesus worshipped the Father just as humanity worshiped the father. Paul wrote “there is actually to us One God, the FATHER” (1 Corinthians 8:6) and Jesus called the Father “the only true God” (John 17:1-3) Therefore I only recognize the Father as God. However I do believe Jesus is the Christ, or Messiah. The chosen one that will accomplish God’s purposes and the Son and that only through exercising faith in Jesus and his teachings can a person come into a favorable relationship with God.

1. How do you know GOD can not be Omnipresent and within an Avatar at the same time though ? I thought GOD was Omnipresent ? So how be it not possible that GOD's spirit can be everywhere and occupy a physical form momentarily ? Did not the LORD come to Moses in Exodus 33 - 34 where Moses actually saw GOD's back parts or was that an Angel too ? So how was that possible for GOD to have a physical body and be away from Heaven in this instance here ? Your analogy does not mesh with Genesis 18 though because at no point have we been eluded to that The LORD was not actually present there.

2. Well this is Interesting. So what did Jesus mean when he said in John 14:9 "He that hath seen me, hath seen the Father, so how can you saw show us The Father" unless he is a variation or avatar of the Father in some way ? Maybe it was Jesus that manifest to Abraham in Genesis 18.

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FireStarLord73194

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@king_saturn: omnipresence disagrees with both our arguments. To say God exists everywhere and in every one is to say you and I, rocks, twigs and animals are just as much God as either the Father or the Son. This diminishes the importance of Jesus’ sacrifice and the sovereignty that belongs to God. Matthew 6:9 says God’s location is “in the heavens”. He existed before the physical universe so how can he be everywhere within it? Logically then, he must exist outside of it

And John 14:9 does not make Jesus an avatar. For one God spoke from the heavens while Jesus was on Earth (Matthew 3:17, two different ppl in two different locations) Jesus reflects his Father’s attributes perfectly, he teaches what he himself learned from God, aptly then the scriptures are saying that if you want to get to know God then get to know Jesus because he’s the expert. This doesn’t mean he is God, just that he reflects Gods qualities.

And ironically i believe it could very well have been Jesus that spoke to Abraham, in fact it probably was since he is the “Word” or God’s spokesman. This does not mean he’s God or the one worthy of worship (LORD in all caps originally said YHWH or Jehovah. Luke 1:32 says Jesus is Son of the Most High, Psalm 83:18 says Jehovah IS the Most High, ergo Jesus is Jehovah’s Son and whoever this person was speaking to Abraham, they were speaking on behalf of Jehovah, does not mean it is Jehovah since no one can see Jehovah and live)

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@king_saturn: omnipresence disagrees with both our arguments. To say God exists everywhere and in every one is to say you and I, rocks, twigs and animals are just as much God as either the Father or the Son. This diminishes the importance of Jesus’ sacrifice and the sovereignty that belongs to God. Matthew 6:9 says God’s location is “in the heavens”. He existed before the physical universe so how can he be everywhere within it? Logically then, he must exist outside of it

And John 14:9 does not make Jesus an avatar. For one God spoke from the heavens while Jesus was on Earth (Matthew 3:17, two different ppl in two different locations) Jesus reflects his Father’s attributes perfectly, he teaches what he himself learned from God, aptly then the scriptures are saying that if you want to get to know God then get to know Jesus because he’s the expert. This doesn’t mean he is God, just that he reflects Gods qualities.

And ironically i believe it could very well have been Jesus that spoke to Abraham, in fact it probably was since he is the “Word” or God’s spokesman. This does not mean he’s God or the one worthy of worship (LORD in all caps originally said YHWH or Jehovah. Luke 1:32 says Jesus is Son of the Most High, Psalm 83:18 says Jehovah IS the Most High, ergo Jesus is Jehovah’s Son and whoever this person was speaking to Abraham, they were speaking on behalf of Jehovah, does not mean it is Jehovah since no one can see Jehovah and live)

1. I did not say that GOD exists everywhere and in everyone. I simply said that GOD's spirit could be everywhere and he could create a physical body that represents himself at the same time.

2. If Jesus reflects GOD's attributes perfectly, then how is he not an avatar for The Father ? Especially when he supposedly came from the Father ? Well, those whom believe in the Holy Trinity would disagree with you as they believe Jesus is GOD as the Father is GOD and the Holy Spirit.

3. Okay, so you say Jesus is The Word ? Then how do you explain John 1:1 then when it says "In The Beginning was The Word, and The Word was with GOD and The Word was GOD".

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FireStarLord73194

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@king_saturn:

1) I never said you said that, I’m just explaining why I don’t agree with the doctrine that God is omnipresent

2) I believe Jesus is perfect, he wasn’t created in sin like we were. Many faithful angels likewise weren’t born in sin. The scriptures say he was with the Father before the world was (John 17:5) So Jesus was more than just a physical representation of God, he existed as a spirit person in heaven separate from God, he was and always has been his own person. This is where Jesus learned about the Father, he learned directly from Him. He then came to Earth and shared that knowledge with others, hence the reason Jesus said “what I teach is not mine but belongs to Him who sent me” (John 7:16) Notice Jesus says this knowledge didn’t originate with him but with someone else. Therefore he is a perfect being who reflects his father’s qualities perfectly. That doesn’t make him an avatar, Avatar implies they are the same person or one exists within another which based off my study of the scriptures they are not. It’s similar to how a young man is “just like his dad”, because he walks talks and acts just like him. There are MANY who disagree with me I know but I hold the position that mainstream Christianity doesn’t line up with first century Christianity

3) I had a long drawn out conversation with Sparehead about this verse in this thread feel free to go back and read it. Simply put, “God” in John 1:1 is more accurately translated as “divine” and in fact many Bibles translate it as such. The original Greek did not have a definitive article such as “a” nor did it have punctuation/capitalization so likely (taken into context with the rest of the Bible) the best literal translation was “the word was A god” (Verse 18 says no man has seen God at ANY time whereas many saw Jesus.)

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There is One Lord Jesus Christ

And The Lord is The Spirit

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@king_saturn:

1) I never said you said that, I’m just explaining why I don’t agree with the doctrine that God is omnipresent

2) I believe Jesus is perfect, he wasn’t created in sin like we were. Many faithful angels likewise weren’t born in sin. The scriptures say he was with the Father before the world was (John 17:5) So Jesus was more than just a physical representation of God, he existed as a spirit person in heaven separate from God, he was and always has been his own person. This is where Jesus learned about the Father, he learned directly from Him. He then came to Earth and shared that knowledge with others, hence the reason Jesus said “what I teach is not mine but belongs to Him who sent me” (John 7:16) Notice Jesus says this knowledge didn’t originate with him but with someone else. Therefore he is a perfect being who reflects his father’s qualities perfectly. That doesn’t make him an avatar, Avatar implies they are the same person or one exists within another which based off my study of the scriptures they are not. It’s similar to how a young man is “just like his dad”, because he walks talks and acts just like him. There are MANY who disagree with me I know but I hold the position that mainstream Christianity doesn’t line up with first century Christianity

3) I had a long drawn out conversation with Sparehead about this verse in this thread feel free to go back and read it. Simply put, “God” in John 1:1 is more accurately translated as “divine” and in fact many Bibles translate it as such. The original Greek did not have a definitive article such as “a” nor did it have punctuation/capitalization so likely (taken into context with the rest of the Bible) the best literal translation was “the word was A god” (Verse 18 says no man has seen God at ANY time whereas many saw Jesus.)

1. You don't think GOD is Omnipresent but you accept passages like 2 Chronicles 6 that explain the vast nature of GOD's being ?

2. An avatar is a manifestation of a being or deity. Jesus could be a manifestation of Jehovah if he comes out of Jehovah. You can claim they are different beings but if Jesus comes out of Jehovah it's highly possible for him to be an avatar to Jehovah. Did Jesus not come into physical being through the Holy Spirit impregnating Mary which the Holy Spirit is supposedly an aspect of GOD or GOD's Power ?

3. Hold Up, John 1:18 says "No one has ever seen GOD, but the one and only Son, who himself GOD and is in closest relationship with The Father, has made him known" The passage seems to clearly say that Jesus is GOD here as well which would go back to giving John 14:9 credibility to my position. Both my King James and NIV Bibles say God not Divine in John 1:1 so I will go with that.

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1 Cor 8:6

there is but One Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

2 Cor 3:17

Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.