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#25101 Edited by jonjizz (944 posts) - - Show Bio

@spareheadone: lol ok, you forgot to include the

black holes = wormholes folklore

but anyway yes, all those theories are either true or the most likely scenario based on the evidence, except for the multiverse hypothesis of course which i never considered to be much more than a fairytale as you said, but the rest, it is literally what most experts and scientists worldwide would agree upon.

so my point is, the scientific method is the key and what makes all the difference, what we have are well-tested theories supported by proper evidence, unlike your example of unverified brainwaves exchanges.

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#25102 Posted by SpareHeadOne (6097 posts) - - Show Bio

@jonjizz:

The Multiverse - We agree

Dark Matter/Energy - is just a place filler til we form a better theory.

abiogenesis - is not the most likely scenario

The first cell evolved - is not the most likely scenario

alien panspermia - is more likely than abiogenesis and pre-life evolution.

The junk DNA hypothesis - was an artifiact of belief that there is no plans or purpose in evolution. This belief stems from materialism. This belief is now incorrect.

Vestigial organs- we don't believe in "junk organs" anymore. We now know about plietropy and chemical signalling which causes different gene expression networks to turn on and off as needed. Looks like it was a built in plan for contingencies.

The fossils are always found in the layers predicted by cladegrams- except when they are not. You can look at a couple examples on the latest page of The evidence for evolution thread.

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#25103 Edited by jonjizz (944 posts) - - Show Bio

@spareheadone:

Dark Matter/Energy - is just a place filler til we form a better theory.

you could say that about all theories, and in this case it may be right, but it's still the most likely scenario based on evidence.

abiogenesis - is still the most likely and scientifically approved scenario, the alternatives don't really fit with everything else we've learned, or follow the scientific method (creationism)

The first cell evolved - same as above

alien panspermia - i was under the impression that panspermia didn't necessarily exclude abiogenesis & pre-life evolution, with some asteroid "kickstarting" life on earth as the most popular theory in the scientific community.

The junk DNA hypothesis - well, the materialistic belief that there is no plans or purpose in evolution is yet to be proven "incorrect", as you claim it is, or even simply improbable, or less probable than the alternative.

Vestigial organs- even though you are a bit more knowledgeable than me on this matter, i can still notice an attempt to rationalize this point because of personal bias, however the sheer magnitude of our complexity is not really evidence of intelligent design, it only means survival of the fittest over the years took its course and did its job as theorized.

The fossils are always found in the layers predicted by cladegrams- in general, a few isolated cases don't really break an otherwise reliable rule, also i looked at the other thread but i'm not familiar enough to correct experts nor do i feel particularly motivated to "dig deeper" into this and go out of my way when there's already overwhelming evidence in favor.

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#25104 Edited by SpareHeadOne (6097 posts) - - Show Bio

@jonjizz:

Dark matter - I agree with you

Abiogenesis via panspermia- This scenario will get you the 22 amino acids that make up biology. These amino acids have first of all to be in the same area at the same time, in order to bond. This is the first of thousands of road blocks along the way to accidental life.

I was saying that the belief in junk DNA is now known to be an incorrect belief. It's now known what non protein coding DNA does.

Vestigial Organs - are not seen as leftovers anymore but rather as expressions that can turn on again if needed.

As far as bias...if you are not willing to see the codes, decoders and built in contingencies as possible evidence of design, then it is probably due to a materialistic bias. Science knows of only one cause for codes and decoders, minds.

You just believe the people at the top of the science establishment without questioning???Sounds a bit like a Catholic or something.

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#25105 Posted by dshipp17 (5485 posts) - - Show Bio

Ezekiel 4:1-17:

Thou also, son of man, take thee a tile, and lay it before thee, and pourtray upon it the city, even Jerusalem:

2 And lay siege against it, and build a fort against it, and cast a mount against it; set the camp also against it, and set battering rams against it round about.

3 Moreover take thou unto thee an iron pan, and set it for a wall of iron between thee and the city: and set thy face against it, and it shall be besieged, and thou shalt lay siege against it. This shall be a sign to the house of Israel.

4 Lie thou also upon thy left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it: according to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon it thou shalt bear their iniquity.

5 For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel.

6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

7 Therefore thou shalt set thy face toward the siege of Jerusalem, and thine arm shall be uncovered, and thou shalt prophesy against it.

8 And, behold, I will lay bands upon thee, and thou shalt not turn thee from one side to another, till thou hast ended the days of thy siege.

9 Take thou also unto thee wheat, and barley, and beans, and lentiles, and millet, and fitches, and put them in one vessel, and make thee bread thereof, according to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon thy side, three hundred and ninety days shalt thou eat thereof.

10 And thy meat which thou shalt eat shall be by weight, twenty shekels a day: from time to time shalt thou eat it.

11 Thou shalt drink also water by measure, the sixth part of an hin: from time to time shalt thou drink.

12 And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight.

13 And the Lord said, Even thus shall the children of Israel eat their defiled bread among the Gentiles, whither I will drive them.

14 Then said I, Ah Lord God! behold, my soul hath not been polluted: for from my youth up even till now have I not eaten of that which dieth of itself, or is torn in pieces; neither came there abominable flesh into my mouth.

15 Then he said unto me, Lo, I have given thee cow's dung for man's dung, and thou shalt prepare thy bread therewith.

16 Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, behold, I will break the staff of bread in Jerusalem: and they shall eat bread by weight, and with care; and they shall drink water by measure, and with astonishment:

17 That they may want bread and water, and be astonied one with another, and consume away for their iniquity.

@jonjizz said:
@dshipp17 said:
@jonjizz said:

do religious people think that god, or whatever entity created the world according to their religion, existed outside of what we call space-time? and if so, wouldn't that make this entity, by definition, fake? since space-time and reality are essentially the same thing?

in other words, if something exists outside of space-time, and by proxy reality itself, wouldn't this thing be, logically, not real? therefore like a dream or a fantasy creating reality, it doesn't make sense

Short and simply, no to each of your thoughts or ideas.

ok, so if you are a christian, you would say that god did not create nor existed outside of the space-time?

If you're familiar with Genesis 1:1, where it said, God created the Heavens and the Earth, couldn't you answer your own question by adjusting your question so that it asks the correct question?

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#25106 Edited by jonjizz (944 posts) - - Show Bio

@spareheadone:

  • Abiogenesis via panspermia- except there are no "road blocks" stopping coincidences from happening.
  • ...

I was saying that the belief in junk DNA is now known to be an incorrect belief. It's now known what non protein coding DNA does.

ah ok, i was answering your conclusions on this matter. (about the belief that there is no plans or purpose in evolution)

  • Vestigial Organs - yes i understand it, no need to repeat i already replied! lol
  • ...

As far as bias...if you are not willing to see the codes, decoders and built in contingencies as possible evidence of design, then it is probably due to a materialistic bias. Science knows of only one cause for codes and decoders, minds.

let's see, evidence of design or byproduct of evolution? one has increadibly deep implications with nothing really to support them, and the other is already in line with the most probable theory and everything we've learned so far, the choice is quite obvious; the latter.

  • ...

You just believe the people at the top of the science establishment without questioning???Sounds a bit like a Catholic or something.

hah that's the classic argument that religious people tend to make! but it never works and no, i'm not like that; the reason i trust in the scientific community as a whole, is literally because it('s supposed to) follows the scientific method! and that is what's really important, i don't trust people or establishments by nature, but a good set of guidelines on how to properly pursue knowledge? one that i studied myself and found out it perfectly answers each of my concerns, as a skeptic, in regards to possible falsehoods? that is what i trust, not the people.

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#25107 Edited by jonjizz (944 posts) - - Show Bio

@dshipp17: i was more interested in your perspective, but it's fine i already have an answer

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#25108 Posted by SpareHeadOne (6097 posts) - - Show Bio

Abiogenesis via panspermia - coincidences can't happen if they are impossible.

Let's see... Are codes evidence of design or a byproduct of evolution?

One agrees with the empirical evidence that we all can observe.

And the other denies the empirical evidence because it is in direct opposition to the popular paradigm, the choice is quite obvious; the former.

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#25109 Posted by Lord_Tenebrous (2056 posts) - - Show Bio

Depends on the religon, on the values instructed. I personally am a Christian, of the Baptist denomination. Which is arguably a faith, or a relationship, more-so than a religion.

In general, theism is the most scientific and logical conclusion/explanation for our existence in my opinion, but the existence of a divine being leaves open the questions of purpose, worth, right versus wrong, and future. Different religions have different answers, different principles and different mindsets.

So again, depends on the religion. Some are alright, some are downright despicable. But for sure, religions that preach morals such as kindness, selflessness, discipline, tolerance, altruism, equality, purity and just goodness in general... these, I would think highly of.

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#25110 Edited by dshipp17 (5485 posts) - - Show Bio

Ezekiel 5:5-17; 6:8-14:

Thus saith the Lord God; This is Jerusalem: I have set it in the midst of the nations and countries that are round about her.

6 And she hath changed my judgments into wickedness more than the nations, and my statutes more than the countries that are round about her: for they have refused my judgments and my statutes, they have not walked in them.

7 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Because ye multiplied more than the nations that are round about you, and have not walked in my statutes, neither have kept my judgments, neither have done according to the judgments of the nations that are round about you;

8 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, even I, am against thee, and will execute judgments in the midst of thee in the sight of the nations.

9 And I will do in thee that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all thine abominations.

10 Therefore the fathers shall eat the sons in the midst of thee, and the sons shall eat their fathers; and I will execute judgments in thee, and the whole remnant of thee will I scatter into all the winds.

11 Wherefore, as I live, saith the Lord God; Surely, because thou hast defiled my sanctuary with all thy detestable things, and with all thine abominations, therefore will I also diminish thee; neither shall mine eye spare, neither will I have any pity.

12 A third part of thee shall die with the pestilence, and with famine shall they be consumed in the midst of thee: and a third part shall fall by the sword round about thee; and I will scatter a third part into all the winds, and I will draw out a sword after them.

13 Thus shall mine anger be accomplished, and I will cause my fury to rest upon them, and I will be comforted: and they shall know that I the Lord have spoken it in my zeal, when I have accomplished my fury in them.

14 Moreover I will make thee waste, and a reproach among the nations that are round about thee, in the sight of all that pass by.

15 So it shall be a reproach and a taunt, an instruction and an astonishment unto the nations that are round about thee, when I shall execute judgments in thee in anger and in fury and in furious rebukes. I the Lord have spoken it.

16 When I shall send upon them the evil arrows of famine, which shall be for their destruction, and which I will send to destroy you: and I will increase the famine upon you, and will break your staff of bread:

17 So will I send upon you famine and evil beasts, and they shall bereave thee: and pestilence and blood shall pass through thee; and I will bring the sword upon thee. I the Lord have spoken it.

Yet will I leave a remnant, that ye may have some that shall escape the sword among the nations, when ye shall be scattered through the countries.

9 And they that escape of you shall remember me among the nations whither they shall be carried captives, because I am broken with their whorish heart, which hath departed from me, and with their eyes, which go a whoring after their idols: and they shall lothe themselves for the evils which they have committed in all their abominations.

10 And they shall know that I am the Lord, and that I have not said in vain that I would do this evil unto them.

11 Thus saith the Lord God; Smite with thine hand, and stamp with thy foot, and say, Alas for all the evil abominations of the house of Israel! for they shall fall by the sword, by the famine, and by the pestilence.

12 He that is far off shall die of the pestilence; and he that is near shall fall by the sword; and he that remaineth and is besieged shall die by the famine: thus will I accomplish my fury upon them.

13 Then shall ye know that I am the Lord, when their slain men shall be among their idols round about their altars, upon every high hill, in all the tops of the mountains, and under every green tree, and under every thick oak, the place where they did offer sweet savour to all their idols.

14 So will I stretch out my hand upon them, and make the land desolate, yea, more desolate than the wilderness toward Diblath, in all their habitations: and they shall know that I am the Lord.

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#25111 Posted by jagernutt (16343 posts) - - Show Bio
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#25112 Edited by RedHood_JayTodd (1681 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm a pandeist, so I believe in "God", but religion is full of hypocrisy, contradictions, and dogma.

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#25113 Posted by Doofasa (2009 posts) - - Show Bio

@jagernutt: How is that video Dawkins confirming Intelligent Design? He's merely stating that it is a possibility.

I agree that intelligent design is certainly a possibility and that "the designer" would essentially be a god. However I don't believe in any god as they are currently depicted in any religion I know off, due to scientific, moral and historical incongruities.

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#25114 Posted by jagernutt (16343 posts) - - Show Bio

@doofasa:

@doofasa said:

@jagernutt: How is that video Dawkins confirming Intelligent Design? He's merely stating that it is a possibility.

Because he admitted that scientific evidence lead's towards a creator.

I agree that intelligent design is certainly a possibility and that "the designer" would essentially be a god. However I don't believe in any god as they are currently depicted in any religion I know off, due to scientific, moral and historical incongruities.

You can believe whatever you want to. It's not my life.

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#25115 Edited by dshipp17 (5485 posts) - - Show Bio

Ezekiel 7:1-5; 9:8-11:

Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

2 Also, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord God unto the land of Israel; An end, the end is come upon the four corners of the land.

3 Now is the end come upon thee, and I will send mine anger upon thee, and will judge thee according to thy ways, and will recompense upon thee all thine abominations.

4 And mine eye shall not spare thee, neither will I have pity: but I will recompense thy ways upon thee, and thine abominations shall be in the midst of thee: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

5 Thus saith the Lord God; An evil, an only evil, behold, is come.

And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord God! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem?

9 Then said he unto me, The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is exceeding great, and the land is full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The Lord hath forsaken the earth, and the Lord seeth not.

10 And as for me also, mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, but I will recompense their way upon their head.

11 And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which had the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me.

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#25116 Posted by dshipp17 (5485 posts) - - Show Bio

Ezekiel 10:1-22:

Then I looked, and, behold, in the firmament that was above the head of the cherubims there appeared over them as it were a sapphire stone, as the appearance of the likeness of a throne.

2 And he spake unto the man clothed with linen, and said, Go in between the wheels, even under the cherub, and fill thine hand with coals of fire from between the cherubims, and scatter them over the city. And he went in in my sight.

3 Now the cherubims stood on the right side of the house, when the man went in; and the cloud filled the inner court.

4 Then the glory of the Lord went up from the cherub, and stood over the threshold of the house; and the house was filled with the cloud, and the court was full of the brightness of the Lord's glory.

5 And the sound of the cherubims' wings was heard even to the outer court, as the voice of the Almighty God when he speaketh.

6 And it came to pass, that when he had commanded the man clothed with linen, saying, Take fire from between the wheels, from between the cherubims; then he went in, and stood beside the wheels.

7 And one cherub stretched forth his hand from between the cherubims unto the fire that was between the cherubims, and took thereof, and put it into the hands of him that was clothed with linen: who took it, and went out.

8 And there appeared in the cherubims the form of a man's hand under their wings.

9 And when I looked, behold the four wheels by the cherubims, one wheel by one cherub, and another wheel by another cherub: and the appearance of the wheels was as the colour of a beryl stone.

10 And as for their appearances, they four had one likeness, as if a wheel had been in the midst of a wheel.

11 When they went, they went upon their four sides; they turned not as they went, but to the place whither the head looked they followed it; they turned not as they went.

12 And their whole body, and their backs, and their hands, and their wings, and the wheels, were full of eyes round about, even the wheels that they four had.

13 As for the wheels, it was cried unto them in my hearing, O wheel.

14 And every one had four faces: the first face was the face of a cherub, and the second face was the face of a man, and the third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle.

15 And the cherubims were lifted up. This is the living creature that I saw by the river of Chebar.

16 And when the cherubims went, the wheels went by them: and when the cherubims lifted up their wings to mount up from the earth, the same wheels also turned not from beside them.

17 When they stood, these stood; and when they were lifted up, these lifted up themselves also: for the spirit of the living creature was in them.

18 Then the glory of the Lord departed from off the threshold of the house, and stood over the cherubims.

19 And the cherubims lifted up their wings, and mounted up from the earth in my sight: when they went out, the wheels also were beside them, and every one stood at the door of the east gate of the Lord's house; and the glory of the God of Israel was over them above.

20 This is the living creature that I saw under the God of Israel by the river of Chebar; and I knew that they were the cherubims.

21 Every one had four faces apiece, and every one four wings; and the likeness of the hands of a man was under their wings.

22 And the likeness of their faces was the same faces which I saw by the river of Chebar, their appearances and themselves: they went every one straight forward.

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#25117 Posted by SpareHeadOne (6097 posts) - - Show Bio

A cherub is an ox.

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#25119 Edited by dshipp17 (5485 posts) - - Show Bio

Ezekiel 11:14-21:

Again the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

15 Son of man, thy brethren, even thy brethren, the men of thy kindred, and all the house of Israel wholly, are they unto whom the inhabitants of Jerusalem have said, Get you far from the Lord: unto us is this land given in possession.

16 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord God; Although I have cast them far off among the heathen, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet will I be to them as a little sanctuary in the countries where they shall come.

17 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord God; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.

18 And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.

19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

21 But as for them whose heart walketh after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their way upon their own heads, saith the Lord God.

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#25120 Posted by SpareHeadOne (6097 posts) - - Show Bio
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#25121 Posted by Dragonborn_CT (26392 posts) - - Show Bio
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#25122 Posted by CrimeNoir (58 posts) - - Show Bio

I’m a pandeist..I view that God and The Universe are the same.

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#25123 Posted by SpareHeadOne (6097 posts) - - Show Bio
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#25124 Posted by dshipp17 (5485 posts) - - Show Bio

Ezekiel 12:21-28; 13:17-23:

And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

22 Son of man, what is that proverb that ye have in the land of Israel, saying, The days are prolonged, and every vision faileth?

23 Tell them therefore, Thus saith the Lord God; I will make this proverb to cease, and they shall no more use it as a proverb in Israel; but say unto them, The days are at hand, and the effect of every vision.

24 For there shall be no more any vain vision nor flattering divination within the house of Israel.

25 For I am the Lord: I will speak, and the word that I shall speak shall come to pass; it shall be no more prolonged: for in your days, O rebellious house, will I say the word, and will perform it, saith the Lord God.

26 Again the word of the Lord came to me, saying.

27 Son of man, behold, they of the house of Israel say, The vision that he seeth is for many days to come, and he prophesieth of the times that are far off.

28 Therefore say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; There shall none of my words be prolonged any more, but the word which I have spoken shall be done, saith the Lord God.

Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,

18 And say, Thus saith the Lord God; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?

19 And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies?

20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:

23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

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#25125 Posted by dshipp17 (5485 posts) - - Show Bio

Ezekiel 14:1-22; :

Then came certain of the elders of Israel unto me, and sat before me.

2 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

3 Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart, and put the stumblingblock of their iniquity before their face: should I be enquired of at all by them?

4 Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the Lord will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols;

5 That I may take the house of Israel in their own heart, because they are all estranged from me through their idols.

6 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations.

7 For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to enquire of him concerning me; I the Lord will answer him by myself:

8 And I will set my face against that man, and will make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

10 And they shall bear the punishment of their iniquity: the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh unto him;

11 That the house of Israel may go no more astray from me, neither be polluted any more with all their transgressions; but that they may be my people, and I may be their God, saith the Lord God.

12 The word of the Lord came again to me, saying,

13 Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it:

14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord God.

15 If I cause noisome beasts to pass through the land, and they spoil it, so that it be desolate, that no man may pass through because of the beasts:

16 Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord God, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters; they only shall be delivered, but the land shall be desolate.

17 Or if I bring a sword upon that land, and say, Sword, go through the land; so that I cut off man and beast from it:

18 Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord God, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters, but they only shall be delivered themselves.

19 Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my fury upon it in blood, to cut off from it man and beast:

20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job were in it, as I live, saith the Lord God, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.

21 For thus saith the Lord God; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?

22 Yet, behold, therein shall be left a remnant that shall be brought forth, both sons and daughters: behold, they shall come forth unto you, and ye shall see their way and their doings: and ye shall be comforted concerning the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, even concerning all that I have brought upon it.

And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

2 Son of man, what is the vine tree more than any tree, or than a branch which is among the trees of the forest?

3 Shall wood be taken thereof to do any work? or will men take a pin of it to hang any vessel thereon?

4 Behold, it is cast into the fire for fuel; the fire devoureth both the ends of it, and the midst of it is burned. Is it meet for any work?

5 Behold, when it was whole, it was meet for no work: how much less shall it be meet yet for any work, when the fire hath devoured it, and it is burned?

6 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; As the vine tree among the trees of the forest, which I have given to the fire for fuel, so will I give the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

7 And I will set my face against them; they shall go out from one fire, and another fire shall devour them; and ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I set my face against them.

8 And I will make the land desolate, because they have committed a trespass, saith the Lord God.

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#25126 Posted by SpareHeadOne (6097 posts) - - Show Bio

@dshipp17:

Enoch came back as Elijah and Elijah came back as Ezekiel.

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#25127 Edited by dshipp17 (5485 posts) - - Show Bio

Ezekiel 16:1-14:

Again the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

2 Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations,

3 And say, Thus saith the Lord God unto Jerusalem; Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan; thy father was an Amorite, and thy mother an Hittite.

4 And as for thy nativity, in the day thou wast born thy navel was not cut, neither wast thou washed in water to supple thee; thou wast not salted at all, nor swaddled at all.

5 None eye pitied thee, to do any of these unto thee, to have compassion upon thee; but thou wast cast out in the open field, to the lothing of thy person, in the day that thou wast born.

6 And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live.

7 I have caused thee to multiply as the bud of the field, and thou hast increased and waxen great, and thou art come to excellent ornaments: thy breasts are fashioned, and thine hair is grown, whereas thou wast naked and bare.

8 Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord God, and thou becamest mine.

9 Then washed I thee with water; yea, I throughly washed away thy blood from thee, and I anointed thee with oil.

10 I clothed thee also with broidered work, and shod thee with badgers' skin, and I girded thee about with fine linen, and I covered thee with silk.

11 I decked thee also with ornaments, and I put bracelets upon thy hands, and a chain on thy neck.

12 And I put a jewel on thy forehead, and earrings in thine ears, and a beautiful crown upon thine head.

13 Thus wast thou decked with gold and silver; and thy raiment was of fine linen, and silk, and broidered work; thou didst eat fine flour, and honey, and oil: and thou wast exceeding beautiful, and thou didst prosper into a kingdom.

14 And thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through my comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord God.

@dshipp17:

Enoch came back as Elijah and Elijah came back as Ezekiel.

No, Enoch didn't die; God took him.

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#25128 Posted by SpareHeadOne (6097 posts) - - Show Bio
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#25129 Posted by Kilius (1612 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm not anti religious, but I loath preachers. Just stop hijacking every thread, asking every stranger to divulge their religious standing when it's none of your business, knocking on my door(referring to Mormons), patronizing me on the sidewalk when I'm trying to get to point a to point b, or forcing me into a religious discussion when I'm at work and not in a position to say no to a customer.

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#25130 Posted by SpareHeadOne (6097 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilius:

So what's your religious standing?

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#25131 Posted by dshipp17 (5485 posts) - - Show Bio

Ezekiel 16:49-63:

Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

50 And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.

51 Neither hath Samaria committed half of thy sins; but thou hast multiplied thine abominations more than they, and hast justified thy sisters in all thine abominations which thou hast done.

52 Thou also, which hast judged thy sisters, bear thine own shame for thy sins that thou hast committed more abominable than they: they are more righteous than thou: yea, be thou confounded also, and bear thy shame, in that thou hast justified thy sisters.

53 When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them:

54 That thou mayest bear thine own shame, and mayest be confounded in all that thou hast done, in that thou art a comfort unto them.

55 When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.

56 For thy sister Sodom was not mentioned by thy mouth in the day of thy pride,

57 Before thy wickedness was discovered, as at the time of thy reproach of the daughters of Syria, and all that are round about her, the daughters of the Philistines, which despise thee round about.

58 Thou hast borne thy lewdness and thine abominations, saith the Lord.

59 For thus saith the Lord God; I will even deal with thee as thou hast done, which hast despised the oath in breaking the covenant.

60 Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant.

61 Then thou shalt remember thy ways, and be ashamed, when thou shalt receive thy sisters, thine elder and thy younger: and I will give them unto thee for daughters, but not by thy covenant.

62 And I will establish my covenant with thee; and thou shalt know that I am the Lord:

63 That thou mayest remember, and be confounded, and never open thy mouth any more because of thy shame, when I am pacified toward thee for all that thou hast done, saith the Lord God.

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#25132 Posted by dshipp17 (5485 posts) - - Show Bio

Ezekiel 17:22-24; 18:25-32:

Thus saith the Lord God; I will also take of the highest branch of the high cedar, and will set it; I will crop off from the top of his young twigs a tender one, and will plant it upon an high mountain and eminent:

23 In the mountain of the height of Israel will I plant it: and it shall bring forth boughs, and bear fruit, and be a goodly cedar: and under it shall dwell all fowl of every wing; in the shadow of the branches thereof shall they dwell.

24 And all the trees of the field shall know that I the Lord have brought down the high tree, have exalted the low tree, have dried up the green tree, and have made the dry tree to flourish: I the Lord have spoken and have done it.

Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?

26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?

30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

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#25133 Edited by AbstractRaze (2646 posts) - - Show Bio

From day to day, I'm more convinced that Heathenry is a very positive belief, at some point, Christianity fought for the Western values, not going to discredit the Crusades, but let us be honest, Christianity became weak, I don't feel like one could entrust them the Western fate anymore.

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Why is Paganism Booming in Europe and Beyond?

A very interesting informative video.

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THE RETURN OF PAGANISM: Will Paganism Become The Main Religion of America?

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#25134 Posted by SpareHeadOne (6097 posts) - - Show Bio

@abstractraze:

If new paganism becomes strong, do you think it would be as good for governments as Christianity was?

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#25135 Edited by AbstractRaze (2646 posts) - - Show Bio

@spareheadone said:

@abstractraze:

If new paganism becomes strong, do you think it would be as good for governments as Christianity was?

I think that modern paganism/Heathenry will strongly influence the Western world as once Christianity did, but under an utterly different philosophy not based on guilt and submission, for the same fact, I think that modern paganism won't degrade and will always remain strong.

PS:

I think that Western people are naturally/spontaneously waking up and rejecting Christianity due unknown reasons I don't even understand, but it's happening and even though I'm myself not religious at all, I just feel that Heathenry is something trustworthy.

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#25136 Posted by SpareHeadOne (6097 posts) - - Show Bio

@abstractraze:

So do you have a slight leaning toward believing in the "collective consciousness", the zeitgeist, the gestalt nature of all things?

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#25137 Posted by VineC1993 (230 posts) - - Show Bio

@dshipp17 said:

Ezekiel 11:14-21:

Again the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

15 Son of man, thy brethren, even thy brethren, the men of thy kindred, and all the house of Israel wholly, are they unto whom the inhabitants of Jerusalem have said, Get you far from the Lord: unto us is this land given in possession.

16 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord God; Although I have cast them far off among the heathen, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet will I be to them as a little sanctuary in the countries where they shall come.

17 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord God; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.

18 And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.

19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

21 But as for them whose heart walketh after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their way upon their own heads, saith the Lord God.

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I watched that Hell testimony. This is why you don't do acid before bed.

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#25138 Edited by AbstractRaze (2646 posts) - - Show Bio

@spareheadone said:

@abstractraze:

So do you have a slight leaning toward believing in the "collective consciousness", the zeitgeist, the gestalt nature of all things?

Well, collective consciousness already was introduced into quantum mechanics, suggesting that consciousness determines the existence of anything, Shrödinger's cat thought experiment indirectly implies a possible theoretical collective consciousness phenomena.

I did not deepen the Zeitgeist subject.

So far I know, gestalt physiology are just perceptual tendencies subconsciously concluded through our daily life, I think that gestalt physiology was assimilated and instinctively attained through evolution, because we're not the only species, there are other animals which applies gestalt physiology in a more primitive manner, for example, if a prey is behind a rock and its leg or tail are visible, the predator concludes the species, I think we might define such phenomena as 'closure'.

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#25139 Posted by dshipp17 (5485 posts) - - Show Bio

Ezekiel 20:1-4; :

And it came to pass in the seventh year, in the fifth month, the tenth day of the month, that certain of the elders of Israel came to enquire of the Lord, and sat before me.

2 Then came the word of the Lord unto me, saying,

3 Son of man, speak unto the elders of Israel, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Are ye come to enquire of me? As I live, saith the Lord God, I will not be enquired of by you.

4 Wilt thou judge them, son of man, wilt thou judge them? cause them to know the abominations of their fathers:

Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

46 Son of man, set thy face toward the south, and drop thy word toward the south, and prophesy against the forest of the south field;

47 And say to the forest of the south, Hear the word of the Lord; Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will kindle a fire in thee, and it shall devour every green tree in thee, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burned therein.

48 And all flesh shall see that I the Lord have kindled it: it shall not be quenched.

49 Then said I, Ah Lord God! they say of me, Doth he not speak parables?

@spareheadone said:

@abstractraze:

If new paganism becomes strong, do you think it would be as good for governments as Christianity was?

I think that modern paganism/Heathenry will strongly influence the Western world as once Christianity did, but under an utterly different philosophy not based on guilt and submission, for the same fact, I think that modern paganism won't degrade and will always remain strong.

PS:

I think that Western people are naturally/spontaneously waking up and rejecting Christianity due unknown reasons I don't even understand, but it's happening and even though I'm myself not religious at all, I just feel that Heathenry is something trustworthy.

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"I think that Western people are naturally/spontaneously waking up and rejecting Christianity due unknown reasons I don't even understand, but it's happening and even though I'm myself not religious at all, I just feel that Heathenry is something trustworthy."

This promise/threat against Christianity has existed for 2000 years now and it's never come to fruition; even though Christianity is the most persecuted group and are literally being killed in places, the numbers still grow and it remains the largest group; there is no sign of this at all in say, the Western Hemisphere; but, in Europe, perhaps, as they're fighting it such that Christianity is being engineered to be shunned there; but, that's a very special case, similar to the Middle East; if the Middle East hasn't being able to do it, neither will Europe; you clearly have blinders on concerning all of the successes of Christianity, so, how credible should you be considered on this matter? Essentially, you're routing for this outcome, but, it's a hopeless and losing battle.

@dshipp17 said:

Ezekiel 11:14-21:

Again the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

15 Son of man, thy brethren, even thy brethren, the men of thy kindred, and all the house of Israel wholly, are they unto whom the inhabitants of Jerusalem have said, Get you far from the Lord: unto us is this land given in possession.

16 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord God; Although I have cast them far off among the heathen, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet will I be to them as a little sanctuary in the countries where they shall come.

17 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord God; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.

18 And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.

19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

21 But as for them whose heart walketh after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their way upon their own heads, saith the Lord God.

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I watched that Hell testimony. This is why you don't do acid before bed.

This is very common; all sorts of people having these near death experiences; just consider it a warning, take it seriously, and take the message on how to change your destiny, provided you're not Christian.

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#25140 Edited by dshipp17 (5485 posts) - - Show Bio

"I think that Western people are naturally/spontaneously waking up and rejecting Christianity due unknown reasons I don't even understand, but it's happening and even though I'm myself not religious at all, I just feel that Heathenry is something trustworthy."

This promise/threat against Christianity has existed for 2000 years now and it has never come to fruition; even though Christianity is the most persecuted group and are literally being killed in places, the numbers still grow and it remains the largest group; there is no sign of this at all in say, the Western Hemisphere, or in other places in the old world; but, in Europe, perhaps, as they're fighting it such that Christianity is being engineered to be shunned there, where they seem to be trying to pressure it out socially and by control mainstream media and going to the far left; but, that's a very special case, similar to the Middle East; if the Middle East hasn't being able to do it, neither will Europe; you clearly have blinders on concerning all of the successes of Christianity, so, how credible should you be considered on this matter? Essentially, you're routing for this outcome, but, it's a hopeless and losing battle.

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#25141 Edited by AbstractRaze (2646 posts) - - Show Bio

@dshipp17: Christianity is destined to perish, you can't attempt to control the masses by guilt and submission forever, the only fact Christianity supports the importation of Islam on western hemisphere, specially in Europe, highlights your blatant betrayal against Western moral values and social standards, but honestly, you can't because Christianity sided for the left and globalism through the curse of time, therefore if you dare, you would only contradict yourselves. From your so mighty crusades to the importation of Islam, your days are counted and this arrogant and pretentious attitude of yours, disgusted me even more, who would think that a man called as Jesus, would completely shatter and change a deeply systematic ideological movement the Romans once led.

I'm sure that a reformed/modern heathenry will exile Christianism, at least from the northern European hemisphere and in the U.S.A.

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#25142 Posted by SpareHeadOne (6097 posts) - - Show Bio

@abstractraze:

Christianity and Heathanry have many common points. But I think that the human need for a hero figure will win out. Does Heathanry have a hero figure?

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#25143 Edited by AbstractRaze (2646 posts) - - Show Bio

@spareheadone said:

@abstractraze:

Christianity and Heathanry have many common points. But I think that the human need for a hero figure will win out. Does Heathanry have a hero figure?

Heathenry is different, I will give you a very simple and witty example, Christianity is the typical football team which relies on 1 or 2 star players, in this case, let's say Portugal with Christiano Ronaldo, and Heathenry is the whole team, such as the German team once was in 2014 with none real star player but way more efficient as a whole team.

I'm not myself deeply into the subject, but this is at least what i can tell you on the subject.

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#25144 Posted by SpareHeadOne (6097 posts) - - Show Bio

@abstractraze:

Following your example...

...Christianity would say that "We are Ronaldo" "We are Ronaldos body" "We are the temple of his spirit" individually we strive to be like Ronaldo because he is the best of us.

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#25145 Edited by AbstractRaze (2646 posts) - - Show Bio

@spareheadone said:

@abstractraze:

Following your example...

...Christianity would say that "We are Ronaldo" "We are Ronaldos body" "We are the temple of his spirit" individually we strive to be like Ronaldo because he is the best of us.

Well, Heathenry is not the submission of any god, the gods are part of the heathen heritage and are an extension of humanity from the heathen perspective, when you honor the All-father known as Odin, you are not only directly honoring him as an entity, but he's the collective manifestation of your ancestral heritage.

As a Christian, when you go to a church, at the end of the mass, one usually consume the sacramental bread, knows as the host, which is supposed to be Christ's body, as you see, everything revolves around a specific entity, while Heathery is more reciprocal, it always reminds us that we came from the nature.

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#25146 Posted by SpareHeadOne (6097 posts) - - Show Bio

The Christ humbled himself and became you and me and all of creation. When we honour Jesus we honour ourselves because we are The Christ.

When Jesus made us we were first made of nature, we were dust. When we die we go back to nature, back to the dust.

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#25147 Edited by AbstractRaze (2646 posts) - - Show Bio

@spareheadone: Jesus Christs humbled 'himself' , that's it, it's all because of him, one entity, everything revolves on what he did, because he's unique, he's the selected one above the common and on his name, we must remain quiet and follow the norms as the common, because we can't be free under God's will.

Heathenry is the opposite of Abrahamic religions which were forced into us, as the Western people.

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#25148 Posted by SpareHeadOne (6097 posts) - - Show Bio

@abstractraze:

We are Christ

We are the one entity

Everything revolves around what we do.

Heathanry says we are nature and we have no free will because we are just following our nature. But we must be quiet about that and behave as if we are free.

Hethenry is the same as Christianity

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#25149 Posted by AbstractRaze (2646 posts) - - Show Bio

@abstractraze:

We are Christ

We are the one entity

Everything revolves around what we do.

Heathanry says we are nature and we have no free will because we are just following our nature. But we must be quiet about that and behave as if we are free.

Hethenry is the same as Christianity

Heathenry and Christianity aren't compatible, that's why Christianity displaced Heathenry and to begin with, Heathenry isn't a dogmatic belief and it's not taken literally.

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#25150 Posted by SpareHeadOne (6097 posts) - - Show Bio

@abstractraze:

Heathanry used to be taken literally.

Many Christians don't take the bible literally.

I'm sure there will be New Heathans who take their religion literally. Especially those who practice magic.