Religion… What do you think?

@guru_crack:

Still wrestling?

I'll take Hell

This is going to sound VERY strange, but I'm going to play "Devil's Advocate" here. Considering one of the most popular versions of Hell is eternal torment including, but not limited to eternal: constant burning but no consumption by fire, flesh being torn from your body yet continuously regrowing, your entrails being torn or eaten from your body and endlessly regrowing, and being up to your nose in feces for ALL of eternity. Remember, the time it takes for a bird to fly one grain of sand from a beach to another beach across the ocean and eventually move the beach to the OTHER beach that way wouldn't be a SECOND in eternity.

Now, the alternative is the same eternity is endless peace, harmony, and happiness.

This is from a purely NON religious standpoint, but a purely practical one. Why would you pick Hell?

Coming from a Christian, I think it's not hard to tell that man is so intrinsically flawed. Whether you call it evil or sin or natural order/chaos, it's something that's plagued us for a while now. Religious or not, Jesus believed his fate was to die and suffer for a world of evil. He defeated that evil. Regardless of the scientific debate, I think that speaks volumes of God who is up there. Even if you don't believe in God or Jesus Christ, think hypothetically for just a moment. God was willing to have his son die at the hand of his own transgressors, people who tortured and hung him on a Cross for an excruciating death. And the God of the Bible exists outside of time, so he knew that His Son was going to die for a world of people, who said they loved Him but hated, for a world of people who did not accept Him, for a world of people who chose material temporary possessions and people over Him, for a world of people who didn't even believe that he existed. What does that say about God to you? That he's a "misogynistic, masochistic bronze-age pro-slavery being" like Richard Dawkins says, or that he's a loving father who let his Divine Son die so that his mortal children could be given a chance at living with him and beside him in Paradise?

There's really no other option. My alternative is apparently to "believe in Jesus". But... I dont. How exactly am I going to force myself to believe in something that I dont believe in??? And... why? I mean, in order to even believe in Hell I'd first have to believe in Jesus and all that... right? Circular logic is circular. But, why would I even want to believe in Jesus? So I can start living my life in fear of something that's supported by nothing but stories and threats? Wow... so enticing! LOL. No thanks. I'm ok believing in things based on logical thought and facts.

In any case, I'm not afraid of Hell any more than I'm afraid that Santa Claus will think I'm naughty and not bring me any gifts.

Jeremiah 22:1-16:

Thus saith the Lord; Go down to the house of the king of Judah, and speak there this word,

2 And say, Hear the word of the Lord, O king of Judah, that sittest upon the throne of David, thou, and thy servants, and thy people that enter in by these gates:

3 Thus saith the Lord; Execute ye judgment and righteousness, and deliver the spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor: and do no wrong, do no violence to the stranger, the fatherless, nor the widow, neither shed innocent blood in this place.

4 For if ye do this thing indeed, then shall there enter in by the gates of this house kings sitting upon the throne of David, riding in chariots and on horses, he, and his servants, and his people.

5 But if ye will not hear these words, I swear by myself, saith the Lord, that this house shall become a desolation.

6 For thus saith the Lord unto the king's house of Judah; Thou art Gilead unto me, and the head of Lebanon: yet surely I will make thee a wilderness, and cities which are not inhabited.

7 And I will prepare destroyers against thee, every one with his weapons: and they shall cut down thy choice cedars, and cast them into the fire.

8 And many nations shall pass by this city, and they shall say every man to his neighbour, Wherefore hath the Lord done thus unto this great city?

9 Then they shall answer, Because they have forsaken the covenant of the Lord their God, and worshipped other gods, and served them.

10 Weep ye not for the dead, neither bemoan him: but weep sore for him that goeth away: for he shall return no more, nor see his native country.

11 For thus saith the Lord touching Shallum the son of Josiah king of Judah, which reigned instead of Josiah his father, which went forth out of this place; He shall not return thither any more:

12 But he shall die in the place whither they have led him captive, and shall see this land no more.

13 Woe unto him that buildeth his house by unrighteousness, and his chambers by wrong; that useth his neighbour's service without wages, and giveth him not for his work;

14 That saith, I will build me a wide house and large chambers, and cutteth him out windows; and it is cieled with cedar, and painted with vermilion.

15 Shalt thou reign, because thou closest thyself in cedar? did not thy father eat and drink, and do judgment and justice, and then it was well with him?

16 He judged the cause of the poor and needy; then it was well with him: was not this to know me? saith the Lord.

RIP Trevor the 'world's loneliest duck'

Yes, it tells me that this God is nothing more than Bronze Age stories based on earlier stories and religions. Nothing you just said makes any sense and it only does if you turn off your brain and only believe what you've been indoctrinated to believe.

If an omnipotent god wanted to get people to be good and believe in him, it would have better options than to send a version of himself to get killed, which inevitably accomplished nothing because people still didnt believe in him. They were still the same afterwards. Yeah, I guess some did, but then they started to fight each other, murder and torture anyone who didnt agree with them, started churches to make a profit off of the gullible, took the opportunity to rape little children, and all the rest. I mean, yeah, that worked out well didnt it?

If that god wanted people to believe in him, it wouldnt have to do it through threats of eternal punishment passed on by humans through stories that are totally unverifiable. Such a god could very easily just show up and tell everyone about himself and his tyrannical commandments that everyone should eternally kiss his ass, or else. There would be no argument over which religion is the "true" religion, there would just be ONE religion.

To the notion that this God is good... that's just hilarious. Maybe you should read the Bible and pay attention to the parts like where God murders and commits genocide on vast scales. Such a "loving father"... LOL.

@willpayton:

You are God

I'm from a non-religious country. Thank god.

Man is all created equal. It is sad that you think that we're not capable of the same is sad. I actually had a response ready but my screened refreshed and it turned off

I know you're extra tough inside and your heart is really hardened right now, but just know, I don't know you but I was where you were, just know that Jesus loves you man. I do too and wish the best in your life and for your family and I hope to see you with me in eternity celebrating, with your family. There's not much I can do for you right now but give you words of solitude and comfort dude. I've been a sceptic. I just want to say I love you dude, but is comparable to God and His Love for you. It's indescribable. From here on out, it is you and God here and now. And for forever more

@risk0608: @willpayton:

???My son, My son, why are you striving

You can't add one thing to what's been done for you

I did it all while I was dying

Rest in your faith, my peace will come to you

For when I hear the praises start

I want to rain upon you

Blessings that will fill your heart

I see no stain upon you

Because you are my child and you know me

To Me you're only holy

Nothing that you've done remains

Only what you do for Me

My child, My child, why are you weeping

You will not have to wait forever

That day and that hour is in My keeping

The day I'll bring you into Heaven

For when I hear the praises start

My child, I want to rain upon you

Blessing that will fill your heart

I see no stain upon you

Because you are My child and you know me

To me you're only holy

Nothing that you've done remains

Only what you do in Me

My precious bride, the day is nearing

When I'll take you in My arms and hold you

I know there are so many things that you've been hearing

But you just hold on to what I have told you

For when I hear the praises start

My bride, I want to rain upon you

Blessings that will fill your heart

I see no stain upon you

Because you are My child, and you know Me

To me you're only holy

Nothing that you've done will remain

Only what you do for me???

Ah, I see what you're saying. You're statement however was "I choose Hell" so I took it to mean "I choose Hell over Jesus" to mean you'd rather have Hell than Jesus as if Hell were preferable to Jesus if you were to believe both existed. Therefore I was just acting you a question of practicality, not faith.

@spareheadone: Still watching it but training was quite a few years ago now.

Arf.

How is this RELIGION thread LESS heated than the politics thread?

Thank you man

@risk0608:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/spareheadone/blog/who-are-we/136070/

Are you familiar with Clive Wearing? He suffers from chronic anterograde and retrograde amnesia. Sometime around his 40's a combination of medical issues, left him with an inability to properly form short term memories, new memories. He has trouble controlling his emotions, and association as well as just being able to function normally.

His memory only lasts around 5 to 30 seconds, and then he can get confused, upset or angry. Waking up is a long ordeal, and he usually believes he has just woken from a coma. His diary is very repetitive, as he never remembers writing in it, even though he recognizes his own writing... he doesn't remember writing in it, and doesn't know who did... but it obviously wasn't him... so this can led to confusion and sadness. Sometimes anger too, because his memory lasts long enough, that he might start to understand what is wrong with him... it can be explained in medical terms, or practical terms, he can be told that he is experiencing short term memory loss and its constant... but what can be done with that? He'll understand for a few seconds and then be completely unaware and oblivious again... except for maybe a sad, strange, lingering feel or thought, that he can't quite grasp or process or remember...

When he looks into the mirror and he has obviously aged... first ten years... then twenty... and then thirty? Except how? Why? When he sees his beloved wife? Imagine the confusion and how unsettling it must be? He has children, but he can not remember their names?

This is a real person, and I mean sure, he is alive, but it must be a very confused, sad and upsetting existence, and you'd have to find small value and pleasures in activities or experiences that others take for granted... however this post isn't really about Clive, its actually about Deborah Wearing, because its one thing to worry about having a similar existence to Clive... but another thing entirely seeing it happen to the person you love most in the world?

Physically, biologically, although pain is obviously painful, their are certain limits and thresholds that exist. Peoples pain tolerance can grow, they pass out if the pain is too much, they die, if the pain is a byproduct of whatever is causing the pain is severe enough. Or if the pain is too much and constant and seems unlikely to end, and whatever is causing isn't severe enough to kill, people can and have chosen death. There have been a few medical conditions that have cause such pain on individuals, last one i remember reading about, was a teenager, who was bed ridden and pumped full of dozens of drugs to make the pain management 'bearable enough" so that he didn't want to just die. Also, he was going to die in about ten years anyway. Also if this was like 3000 years ago, they would have died a lot earlier, either via suicide or mercy killing, without modern day drugs and convenience.

Also there is this bush in Australia, that if you touch it, it makes you want to die, its so painful, and it can last up to... I need to look it up again. Its called the Gympie-Gympie. It can cause pain up to months and years. Reports of people falling into it and being affected across their bodies, have had to been strapped to hospital beds for three weeks, being in agony during that period, even with all the attempts at dealing with the issue.

Now... we can say, arguably that since this is Hell, and more abstract, there is a way for people to experience the intense pain without dying... okay so their pain tolerance will increase, so another qualifier, pain tolerance is set at a limit, no getting use to it or developing coping mechanisms. Just screaming agony type pain... well, then are you really you anymore? If you are in so much constant pain, and supernatural intervention is causing you to keep enduring through it, so much so you can't just end it, and its also somehow keeping your body fresh to the pain, physically, and mentally? The kind of pain that doesn't let you recollect memories or imagine happier moments or futures or potentials... there is nothing but the superficial to distinguish you from anyone else. Just a body screaming. that might have had a name once.

The problem with that is that, that can happen to a person without the pain. When people en masse are stripped of their possessions, clothes, branded with generic symbols and matched to their deaths in lines. There is a famous photo of a father, a man named Nsala, photographer is Alice Seeley Harris. Its of Nsala looking at the cut off limbs of his dead daughter, age 4 or 5, his punishment for not collecting enough rubber that day. They also killed his wife and ate her and the parts of the daughter that went cut off. Its super depressing and angering. I don't even know if I could function if I had to experience similar.

Granted, none of above would be as bad as what you described... but we have individuals who have experienced some very deep types of pain, physical, mental, and emotional. Now, if we think when ideas and notions of heaven and hell, and similar were formed, created, popularized, so on, which type of pain do you think most people were most worried about? What was their understanding of pain as far as biology? Chemicals? Do you think a mother from 3 thousand years ago, with a family starving, a few children killed from violence, and disease, a husband who has disappeared and may or may not be coming back with food in a few weeks... well.. living in modern times, might actually sound like heaven to her. All children are alive, husband is alive, no one is starving, food is accessible all the time, same with clean drinking water. Can spend a lot of time during the day playing or looking at the sky. Although comics haven't gotten more expensive... also hell as you describe it sounds pretty bad...

So my point here is, here on Earth, actual people, have had these... experiences that could be considered as being hell on earth and heaven on earth. A more humble version of heaven for some sure, but yeah. Also none of them are going to last forever, true, but they are real, have happened, are actual. Not just ideas, or wishes, desires or fears. Some rare people are even born without the ability to feel physical pain (and its dangerous, because pain is often an important function to let us know something with our body is wrong). Is God or the devil going to give them the ability to feel pain? Well.. some people experience more pain, when its inflicted on someone they care about... is god or the devil going to torture the people I care about in order to inflict pain on me?

Such questions and thought processes are lots on the mind of someone who lived 1000 years ago and is only concerned with survival and easily influenced by authority and power wielded by state and religion. They can't really answer them, and if they could, the concepts themselves would start to fall apart.

I do think you did a wonderful job of playing devils advocate, but it also falls a part pretty easy too. All it takes, is for one person, deserving of heaven, to want, desire, or think, all people should never have to experience hell. Not even hell, my above examples, to me, are extremely sad and horrible to some of those individuals and their loved ones. So such an individual would either no longer be deserving... which would be telling... or no one would experience hell. I for one, automatically couldn't be entered into heaven, because I don't think anyone deserves hell. Some people like some of those above, already suffer through a "lite" version of hell, and would probably gladly accept your version of it if it gave respite, life or peace to their loved ones. Which ironically to me, makes them the most deserving of heaven.

So on practical grounds, I'd have to pick Hell, if given a choice, because I can't be in Heaven, without all my human friends, flawed or otherwise. Wouldn't sit right with me.

@sc:

Commie!

I spose you share all your wealth with your poorer friends and family.

No thanks Noah, I've been meaning to take a swim for a while now, my breast stroke isn't what it used to be.

When you consume the souls of your friends and family via soul tornado vortex, you no longer have to share anything, they get the benefits when you just share it with yourself. I am efficient like that. I also recommend the George Foreman Grill™ when it comes to roasting souls. Gives them a tangy flavor.

@sc:

Okay. Let me refine my scenario a bit, or rather explain it a bit further. The concept (with zero religious implications, let's forget Jesus let's just say Jesus is X being/thing/idea that well simply call X) is that you can believe in X or you will be consigned to Hell. Let me further refine my explanation of Hell. All the terrors and pain I explained of Hell with the added dimension (that I thought went without saying but I suppose I should have said) that you are NEVER allowed to "get used to them". You never build up a tolerance, never become accustomed to them in any way. It's fresh pain and terror every millisecond of eternity. It is so mind searingly horrific that you can't even fathom the concept of family and friends and you know this before hand.

The same applies to heaven. Joy and rapture you can't conceive of every millisecond for eternity. What's more X was right, and somehow (forget the mental and moral gymnastics) SOMEHOW you realize X was right and the plan for the universe was RIGHT and everything going on, including Hell and the people who are there is the right thing.

This is, of course, a mental and ethical exercise in practicality. I'm NOT asking anyone to believe in a damn thing :).

@heroup2112: I actually already said that as well... my apologies, my post was long, I can forgive that part being looked over heh heh, but yeah, I already went into the idea of so "lets assume that we won't get use to them", and that we don't get conditioned to it and then went in to explain the issue with that as well.

I can repeat it again though, in more concise terms. Then my original post can be used for reference. At that point, are you even you anymore? Like okay, God or satan decide to make you Hitler tomorrow, so you can deal with massive guilt... but what if Hitler didn't feel guilt? Well okay you are in Hitler's body, but you still retain your own memories and psychology... well then your not really Hitler, thats not how brains work. Okay so God or satan just rewrites how brains work... okay, so what ethical decisions did i actually get to make, to distinguish whether or not I should be in heaven or hell? Also again, some people are born with an inability to feel physical pain. God is going to give them new physiology just to punish them? Like there lives weren't already hard enough?

The premise falls apart. Your heaven scenario struggles under similar weight. Like what if God only endorses homosexuality and he hates Italians. An Italian heterosexual gets to heaven, but somehow he isn't Italian anymore and actually he doesn't love his wife, he realizes he was actually gay, and thats always been right, and the plan all along. Losing your identity and personality are pretty big loses to take no? If its just somehow modified to "make sense"?

In order for your devils advocate position to work, you require a person to lose their memories, attachments, connections, desires, fears, hopes, relationships, just in order to better fit a one dimensional type of experience, one unideal and one ideal. Either effectively making them non human. It could be possible, just starts being an actual matter you have little control over. You might as well say that God actually just decides to make you believe in him and then you do somehow. Then its like... free will, ah... but God modifies that too, so both are possible. Changing your mind to believe in him, but also having feel free too, since he can do that right? Then since neutral/inaction can be considered a choice in context, you can even argue that God chose to send you to hell no matter what. Once we get to the level of modifications required to make such a scenario plausible.

I am keeping that in mind as far as an ethical exercise. Perhaps, think about it this way? School trip, half your school gets to go on a big day out where you will get the best food, the free gear thats really expensive, you get to meet famous and rich people, and some other prizes and treats. A few of the people you know and like from school are going... but a lot of your best friends aren't going. Instead they have detention and must stay back at school. Including your best friends, your most loyal friends, the friends who have supported you in your life. They can't go, because despite you thinking they are great people, they aren't allowed on the bus or the trip. Not the right sexual orientation, one is skeptical in nature, another is from a different country and culture, various reasons. You get to decide whether you go on the trip, or stay back with your friends? I'm going to stay back with my friends. Actually they don't even need to be my friends necessarily, but if they are...

Thanks for your reply too by the way, interesting scenario.

@sc:

No, I read your entire previous post and understood what you said. Maybe I didn't refer to it very well.

Most of what you're saying in the beginning of this last post means I'm not making my point very well. This exercise isn't about God, or believing, or God taking away free will, or manipulating anything about anyone's perceptions. In fact it's ALL about free will.

Take you example about the school trip. The only requirement for going on the "cool" bus trip is for the kids to choose to go on the bus trip or not. I guess that only YOU know that bus trip A is the cool bus trip and bus trip B is the detention bus trip; everyone else is guessing or going off rumor about which is the cool bus trip.

@sc: exceot that the bus trip leads to never ending agony :)

@sc:

Yes! I spose that Oneness is how TV evangelists and high end catholic clergy justify their wealth. "It's all part of the soul tornado vortex of Christ"

Well... you're also taking my post as much more serious than was intended. Of course I would not voluntarily choose being tortured endlessly... but then again, I did voluntarily get married... hmm, I might have to rethink some of my beliefs.

Anyway, I dont take such issues any more seriously than I would a battles forum argument over which fictional character would win in a fight. Although... of course Superman would absolutely wreck Thor, that much is certain. Come at me Thor fanboys.

@willpayton:

Superman, WillPayton,Thor and Jesus are all the same person.

Again, it was just a mental exercise.

@willpayton:

And you are The Doctor too.

@willpayton:

But seriously YOU are the hero. Your consciousness is the hero that makes journeys into your unconscious to fight the monsters that hold you back. You return with the boon of knowledge or freedom. Your consciousness might bring back something much needed from your unconscious or it might master something from down there.

Any hoo it's all in Joseph Campbell's Hero with a thousand faces

@heroup2112:

Okay, I am a little confused, so what was the purpose of this section "All the terrors and pain I explained of Hell with the added dimension (that I thought went without saying but I suppose I should have said) that you are NEVER allowed to "get used to them". You never build up a tolerance, never become accustomed to them in any way."

When in my post that preceded it I stated "arguably that since this is Hell, and more abstract, there is a way for people to experience the intense pain without dying... so another qualifier, pain tolerance is set at a limit, no getting use to it or developing coping mechanisms..."

I thought it went without saying too... but I decided to state it anyway for clarity, so you knew I understood, for context, for my following argument. So I do not understand its purpose in your reply. Do you understand what I mean?

"Most of what you're saying in the beginning of this last post means I'm not making my point very well. This exercise isn't about God, or believing, or God taking away free will, or manipulating anything about anyone's perceptions. In fact it's ALL about free will"

Perhaps... there could be a few other reasons. Like certain ideas are concomitant. Free will doesn't exist in a vacuum. So perhaps, the crux here, is how you view ideas? Like you might like to view ideas in a more absolute way, solely within a vacuum, where as I don't, and thus your devils advocate position isn't as strong a position for myself as it is for you?

"Take you example about the school trip. The only requirement for going on the "cool" bus trip is for the kids to choose to go on the bus trip or not. I guess that only YOU know that bus trip A is the cool bus trip and bus trip B is the detention bus trip; everyone else is guessing or going off rumor about which is the cool bus trip."

Modifying my analogy, I'm cool with that if it means better understanding. So if its a genuine choice, and the kids are all informed, aren't being coerced or manipulated, pressured or deceived, then sure, I'm jumping on the bus too, but I'd also prefer being the last person to get on the bus, knowing everyone was already on the bus. Oh also my question to you wasn't hypothetical, I actually would like to know what you would personally choose. Your personal attachments and best friends or enjoying the trip?

That being said, Heaven deal is still pretty bad, as per your description, again, because of what we know of humans biologically and psychologically speaking. We require dips and peaks in our happiness. A lot of our happiness is defined by how we experience, neutral moments, mild positive emotions and states of mind, and mild negative emotions and states of mind, as well as more extreme negative emotions and states of mind. We require degrees of conflict, and challenge and opposition, and there are also interesting relationships around peoples positive emotions as far as their perspective. Some people are happier when they are doing better than others, how this attitude would be reflected in a place catering to happiness, either creates a situation where some aren't happy or perceptions are altered so someone perceives others being not as happy. Or their person is modified to not be that way.

Basically the problem with your devils advocate position, is that your description of Heaven reads like a very traditional description and idea of heaven, made by people (in times long past) who didn't have the knowledge and understanding of some people today. If you created a more nuance description of heaven, based around certain hierarchy of values, then it would be much stronger to some people, like myself. The only issue is that it might lose some of its general appeal, for those whom the hierarchy of values doesn't cater to their ideal version of Heaven.

"Hi folk, my name is Benny Hinn and I'd like to take this opportunity to impart the wisdom of the Soul Tornado Vortex of Christ"

@sc:

You know I've been to a Benny Hinn meeting/conference thing. I was at bible college and the college was ushering for it, so I handed out brochures and money collection buckets.

All in all it was a load of shit.

@spareheadone: I did read an article a while back about Benny Hinn, seemingly showing regret about his younger days and attitude, after Billy Graham passed on, making certain concessions. It was refreshing to hear in a way, just.. it seemed a little superficial given his wealth already and being in his later years.

Haha, must have been a trip to see him live.

@sc:

I have been meaning to develop some anti prosperity doctrine. I was gunna base it around the prodigal son and how getting your inheritance too early is setting you up for a fall. But I'm sure Benny will never admit to his prostitutes that he has fallen.

It was a little surreal seeing him bullshit in real life. I got a free book for my troubles. Made for good kindling.

I'd simply choose not to be tortured for eternity quite frankly. For the sake of this simple exercise anyway.

I could say that each individual's perception of heaven would be ideally suited to what their personal vision of "heaven" would be but that's overthinking things in my opinion. If it helps the exercise then we can certainly go with that.

Or, for the sake of simplicity each person experiences an "eternal orgasm" that never gets dull (for want of a better analogy).

@heroup2112:

Oooh I'll have what you're having.

lol

Torture for eternity as an abstract idea is easy to imagine for a little while, but its akin to imagining a giant tree thats bigger than the universe. I can imagine it... but when we start to actually investigate the idea and its applicability in reality, it falls apart. Often when certain philosophers, religious apologetics, talk about such concepts, they start to phrase more along the lines of ideal and unideal variables, rather than absolutes.

I also covered the personal vision too, because then either you are deceived (like if you are attached to someone who might not share a similar idea of Heaven as you or they aren't allowed) or one party is forced to conform to another's Heaven, or everyone gets to be in Heaven. you have friends and family I assume, if you were told at the gates of Heaven, that they are all actually in Hell, only you got in to Heaven... BUT... once you are in Heaven, you'll forget they are in Hell, and you'll have imitations/replicas of them virtually indistinguishable from the real ones. That would be alright with you?

On Earth, no one is forced to conform to anyone else's reality, so we make little compromises, when we wish to, and that itself can be quite nice. You do something for a loved one, not because you are directly benefitted, but they are, and thats more important to you.

Haha, great example, funnily enough, I actually thought a similar example after your last reply. Serious question, would you want to have the feeling of a constant orgasm while eating your favorite breakfast? Walking with your romantic partner down the street? Watching television with friends? Playing with a pet? Watching a movie at the cinema? Playing chess with your father or mother? Or is the appeal of an orgasm, the anticipation and build up and intimacy with a sexual partner, and vigorous, sweaty, physical activity. With someone special? With a come down, to appreciate the moment. Then time after to again build more anticipation or balance out life with other fun stuff. Again, this is what I mean, a constant ongoing orgasm sounds horrible to me, and akin to torture.

Does having multiple houris/companions sound good to you? How about an infinite amount? You are completely surrounded by writhing, orgasming, sweaty, houris, while you are completely enveloped in your own orgasm. Just legs, arms, hair, everywhere, can't even see with all the flesh flopping everywhere. You can't die... wait did I just describe Heaven or Hell?

Again, I am not being obtuse here, I could easily construct a version of Heaven and Hell, where I'd prefer to be in Heaven over Hell, its just not how you described it. My description would also be lengthly and its highly likely many people wouldn't want my version of heaven, as a universally applied concept.

@sc: Sigh...I'm just working in easy abstracts here. The general theory is that once you're dead, earthly concerns won't be the same as your afterlife concerns. Things will be different...I just chose orgasm out of a hat, as it's generally the most pleasurable thing people experience. Maybe I should have said "something akin to". Earth would, by pretty much any definition, even if every single person you ever loved or liked was there pale into almost nothing next to any sort of heavenly "realm". That's sort of the idea. I understand what you're getting at with all this but you're really going WAY past the point of the exercise. Eternal absolute crappy torture you'd never ever get used to, or eternal happiness that you'd never get bored, question, or be dissatisfied with. No Saint Peter (that's a myth centered around Christianity to begin with and we're dealing with X) at the gates just BAM, you die and there you are.

@heroup2112: I am aware, I am just explaining how the position falls apart. Its like a devils advocate position on which of the four four humors is more important, and if you had to sacrifice two and preserve two, which would you choose. Easy abstract ideas that fall apart under greater scrutiny. Also the "obvious" answer actually might not be the better answer, because the ideas are so outdated and superficial. The devils advocate position falls apart under scrutiny.

Your examples don't actually matter, because unless there is actual range and variety to the experience, the experience won't actually be pleasurable or ideal. The actual degree and movement of experience is what gives value to experiences.

Are you really really really sure you understand what I am getting at? You still haven't answered some of my prior questions or points. A lot of the points you make, I have already addressed. I have even explained how to strengthen the devils advocate position in order to actually get a person like me, to choose the Heaven option. Then gave an argument against that as well (well, why it won't be universially applicable) I never claimed Saint Peter was factual. Was just a question for you to answer. Not rhetorical. You HeroUp2112 either are okay with a Heavenly scenario where your loved ones only appear as a facsimile or you aren't okay. If you aren't okay, then you understand a little better about the nuance of such questions. I agree and acknowledge we can just hand wave such questions away, "oh but it just works out" but because of the inherent differences available within humans, some of the issues I have been raising, that naturally accompany each other and be at odds with each other, turn your dilemma from being "simple and abstract" to deceptively simple, but with a lot more nuance and complexities.

Again, if you don't see the nuance and complexity, thats fine too, I am not saying you aren't entitled to view the choice as more simple than I think it is, I am just pointing out, its a weak devils advocate position. Devils advocate position of something or nothing? Thats weak too, for similar reasons. Some could assert that those are just two simple abstract concepts and ideas and its easy to choose one over the other, but its actually more complex and nuance for and to many, for many reasons, as far as philosophy science, and logic.

@sc: The point is, it's meant to be a straight forward exercise. What I understand is that you fill the need to ask all these subtleties and minutia and that's fine. Most people would not. Will didn't, when he read the question he answered it straight away and wondered why we were going into this in such great length.

I'm not saying you SHOULDN'T examine this in such great detail it's just that I have no desire to, and I feel that on the face of it the answers are relatively straight forward and easy to answer one way or the other.

Were I of a mind to I could have a dialectic (I'm almost always happy to leave debates back in high school) about philosophy and all the ins, outs, ups, and downs of the possibilities of a question like this. It's just not what I'm looking for this time.

@heroup2112: I know, I am claiming it isn't. Its not straight forward. We can pretend anything is a straight forward issue, but it doesn't necessarily make it so. People might make assumptions about the nature of heaven and hell that are overly simplistic. There is a reason why such ideas have endured for thousands of years and some people are willing to die for such ideas. I think its extremely important to therefore think about such ideas and discuss them more.

From what I know of willpayton, he generally prefers hard science over philosophy and even logic, unless the logic is of practical relevance and importance to a scientific principle. Also why he was more dismissive of the question, and doesn't take it that seriously. Akin to arguing over fictional characters. I however am taking the devils advocate position more seriously, and granting merit to certain ideas, I too, am skeptical of, probably because of similar reasons to willpayton and many other atheists.

The reason why I am okay doing this, is because I think, even if we take such ideas as serious, addressing them and pointing out the flaws, from a more philosophical and abstract logic frame, is still very easy. As opposed to if we addressed such ideas via hard science, in which case, its even more... well dismissive would be one way to look at it. It wouldn't nor should it be given the time of day, until/unless actual evidence, in the scientific sense of the term is explored/produced.

You are under no obligation to continue any of this. I am just addressing points you make. I almost wonder if you think I am arguing with you?!? Even though I actually, again, provided a stronger kind of devils advocate position for similar purpose. With again the draw back being, it might not be applicable to everyone, but neither is your proposed devils advocate position either. Sort of like - "here is what makes your devils advocate position weak, here are the reasons why, here are counter arguments to my reasons, but here is why those arguments fall apart, and then, but here is an alternative - and then the pros and cons of that alternative"

I also touched on what the crux of the issue is. Language isn't consistent across individuals, neither are certain ideas. Some people prefer absolutes. Yes or no, black or white, zero and infinity, something and nothing, Hulk Hogan, or Randy Savage, Coke or Pepsi, and some people like to mix fanta, orange juice, milk and lemons together. Or more accurately prefer more context and accuracy if it exists and parallels reality better. Generally thats what we know of reality, VS how ideas are formed in humans. Our brains generally think simple, we have to train them to think with more nuance and understanding. We can still opt to approach certain ideas with simplicity in mind, like what to eat for dinner, steak or chicken. Heaven and Hell however are ideas I actually think should be thought about with a bit more nuance considering its role in attracting people to religions, and how many people fear Hell, or the fates of their loved ones.

So I do think that you naturally tend to not think of Heaven and Hell as being that disputable - correct me if I am wrong on that, I am not trying to change your mind there, just addressing points you make, to explain why its very very disputable to someone like me. Why the position is weak and examples are flawed.

Heaven is In your forehead

Hades is up your bum

Hell isnt created yet

@sc: No. Believe it or not I honestly understand what you're saying. Basically the very simplistic way I've presented the "Devil's Advocate" is not as "simple" as it seems when you break it down on a philosophical level; hover it was never meant to be broken down onto that level of philosophy.

No, I don't think you're trying to change my mind on which way I should choose and I'm not trying to change yours either I just never intended this to be ANYTHING like the philosophical discussion we've been having. I've only been trying to break this down into the simplest terms. A lot of times I would enjoy the philosophical points of all this but I'm just not mentally up to it right now, with all considerably due respect.

@heroup2112: Hah okay cool cool.

My apologies for taking the devils advocate position too seriously. I thought it would be interesting to address.

No worries, since you didn't address any of the points, there is nothing I feel the need to address. My apologies, I should have sensed your reluctance to continue earlier and worded my replies to get to this point specifically sooner!

I still enjoyed the discussion though, so thank you!