Religion… What do you think?

How can we debate if you wont even educate yourself, by, for example, reading the replies correcting you, and, then, following the advice and going back to educate yourself about the evidence supporting Christians for their confidence in Christianity? Everything that I wrote is just about as material as you wrote, as it was mostly spent correcting you and directing you away from your red herrings and back to the discussion at hand. Essentially, based on your most recent writing, I'd say that we can discuss expanding upon your clearly limited knowledge base about the reasons that Christians remain Christians, even in this information age, as well as why you should consider expanding your knowledge base about Christianity. That's honestly the only way a constructive discussion can occur.

As is apparent, based on the wording of your responses, at times, it seems that you're under some type of impression that you're both telling me things that I haven't heard before or providing me with knowledge that I don't already know about science and that, if I knew what you knew, I'd be dissuaded from Christianity and then reach your conclusions, even after a back and forth with me, at which point, you should know better. However, your assumptions are not correct, as I do have a science background and secondly, I can tell that both you have a limited understanding of the Bible and that you think that you already know enough about the Bible; clearly, one thing I can conclude is that your information is from a very antagonistic source and that you're unwilling to simply approach people who are actually knowledgeable of Christianity for an explanation from those people; in otherwards, you want to spread your propaganda and misinformation as opposed to learning something that you clearly already don't know. So, with that said, what are you hoping to accomplish?

Given your approach so far, there's just no likelihood of your pulling me towards your views; for one, to be frank with you, I consider it disrespectful and off putting for someone to summarily disregard what I have to say and instead, just push their opinion on me, particularly in a way where those opinions assumes that I actually need knowledge that I'm already quite familiar with; what you're doing actually has the opposite effect with a person like me; trust me, if we were in person or on the phone and you were taking this approach, by 10 minutes in, I would not be someone that you could talk with and we would not have made it this far, mostly likely, even though I'm working on that part of me, as it would just be a heated argument taking place, at best (e.g. not just me, but you'd probably want to come to blows); and, secondly, you refuse to go and equip yourself with enough knowledge that would be necessary to convince me that perhaps I've made mistakes somewhere and need to reconsider my conclusions, except you'd have to start by treating me that I have already have more scientific knowledge than you could ever express (e.g. now, I was debating with a college professor here; in that case, I could start to reverting to learning mode, except he's similar to you, as a negative); essentially, I've so far fruitlessly told you how to actually be able to have any hope of changing my mind; nobody usually does that for someone in this type of context; of course, what you say would still have to be logical and make sense, except to a cosmic level, if you're debating me on my plain; but, the only way there is by simply listening to what I suggest that you do, first; without doing that, the odds are very small that you'll be able to convince me.

@dshipp17: Buddy, I’d love to talk to you but if you can’t make your responses succinctly I can’t continue. If that’s too much of a challenge then I don’t think we have anything else to discuss, bye.

Basically, go educate yourself about the evidence supporting Christianity, and then, lets talk; specifically, I direct you to a source such as answersingenesis.com; just a longer and expanded version of what I first said, as appeared required from our exchanges. There are many more reasons for a Christian to remain Christian, even in this information age than what you had concluded

I've seen that website before. It's not very compelling pal. All I'm asking is that you make your points directly. Its not asking very much. If you can't do that, then I don't think you're ready for a conversation like this. Sorry.

Isaiah 14:9-20; 29-32:

Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.

19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent.

30 And the firstborn of the poor shall feed, and the needy shall lie down in safety: and I will kill thy root with famine, and he shall slay thy remnant.

31 Howl, O gate; cry, O city; thou, whole Palestina, art dissolved: for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone in his appointed times.

32 What shall one then answer the messengers of the nation? That the Lord hath founded Zion, and the poor of his people shall trust in it.

I don't think so; otherwise, you would have been familiar with my comment when I was talking about the 5 out of 6 dating methods that support a young earth; but, you were probably aware of the name of the website; however, you should go and digest the material and learn; plus, this website was a starting point; there are many more websites just like this one; it should help you come up with more reasons as to why there are so many Christians in the information age, besides what you were only purported to think of. Otherwise, you should have been able to begin a discussion with me about the alternative ways of dating the earth.

Isaiah 18:1-7:

Woe to the land shadowing with wings, which is beyond the rivers of Ethiopia:

2 That sendeth ambassadors by the sea, even in vessels of bulrushes upon the waters, saying, Go, ye swift messengers, to a nation scattered and peeled, to a people terrible from their beginning hitherto; a nation meted out and trodden down, whose land the rivers have spoiled!

3 All ye inhabitants of the world, and dwellers on the earth, see ye, when he lifteth up an ensign on the mountains; and when he bloweth a trumpet, hear ye.

4 For so the Lord said unto me, I will take my rest, and I will consider in my dwelling place like a clear heat upon herbs, and like a cloud of dew in the heat of harvest.

5 For afore the harvest, when the bud is perfect, and the sour grape is ripening in the flower, he shall both cut off the sprigs with pruning hooks, and take away and cut down the branches.

6 They shall be left together unto the fowls of the mountains, and to the beasts of the earth: and the fowls shall summer upon them, and all the beasts of the earth shall winter upon them.

7 In that time shall the present be brought unto the Lord of hosts of a people scattered and peeled, and from a people terrible from their beginning hitherto; a nation meted out and trodden under foot, whose land the rivers have spoiled, to the place of the name of the Lord of hosts, the mount Zion.

Isaiah 19:18-22:

In that day shall five cities in the land of Egypt speak the language of Canaan, and swear to the Lord of hosts; one shall be called, The city of destruction.

19 In that day shall there be an altar to the Lord in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar at the border thereof to the Lord.

20 And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the Lord of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto the Lord because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them.

21 And the Lord shall be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians shall know the Lord in that day, and shall do sacrifice and oblation; yea, they shall vow a vow unto the Lord, and perform it.

22 And the Lord shall smite Egypt: he shall smite and heal it: and they shall return even to the Lord, and he shall be intreated of them, and shall heal them.

Isaiah 22:20-25:

And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will call my servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah:

21 And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.

22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

23 And I will fasten him as a nail in a sure place; and he shall be for a glorious throne to his father's house.

24 And they shall hang upon him all the glory of his father's house, the offspring and the issue, all vessels of small quantity, from the vessels of cups, even to all the vessels of flagons.

25 In that day, saith the Lord of hosts, shall the nail that is fastened in the sure place be removed, and be cut down, and fall; and the burden that was upon it shall be cut off: for the Lord hath spoken it.

7 Dead in Attack on Coptic Christian Pilgrims in Egypt

This thread looks familiar, sort of, but I don't remember posting in it. So... I'm an apatheist, meaning, I don't care if there is or isn't proof God or a God exists (for any mythology), as their existence or non-existence has no bearing on how I live my life. However, that doesn't mean I can't enjoy mythology and its innumerous characters, or even poke fun and fart on religion from time to time. =)

@jexsu:

What is your favourite myth?

@spareheadone: Norse would be my most favored, with Japanese (Shinto) second. What about you?

Moses could see Yahweh's Back Parts and Abraham could even sit and eat with Yahweh as one would a regular person. Now why does not the GOD of Israel think to do these things in the modern day ?

@Jexsu:

I have read the Prose Edda and the Kojiki.

My favourite overall Mythology would be Hindu/Vedic

@king_saturn:

I had a coffee with Him yesterday and he wants you to know that phonetically his name is written "Yehwah".

@spareheadone: That's cool.

The One Above All is totally based off the God of the Bible.

Isaiah 24:1-12; 20-23:

Behold, the Lord maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.

2 And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him.

3 The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the Lord hath spoken this word.

4 The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.

5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

7 The new wine mourneth, the vine languisheth, all the merryhearted do sigh.

8 The mirth of tabrets ceaseth, the noise of them that rejoice endeth, the joy of the harp ceaseth.

9 They shall not drink wine with a song; strong drink shall be bitter to them that drink it.

10 The city of confusion is broken down: every house is shut up, that no man may come in.

11 There is a crying for wine in the streets; all joy is darkened, the mirth of the land is gone.

12 In the city is left desolation, and the gate is smitten with destruction.

The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the Lord of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

Oh, The Almighty has us spelling it another way again ? I remember everyone was spelling his name "Jehovah" for years in the United States.

@king_saturn:

Yeah it was Jehovah on Montey Python.

Isaiah 25:4-8; 26:12-19:

For thou hast been a strength to the poor, a strength to the needy in his distress, a refuge from the storm, a shadow from the heat, when the blast of the terrible ones is as a storm against the wall.

5 Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low.

6 And in this mountain shall the Lord of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

7 And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the Lord hath spoken it.

Lord, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us.

13 O Lord our God, other lords beside thee have had dominion over us: but by thee only will we make mention of thy name.

14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.

15 Thou hast increased the nation, O Lord, thou hast increased the nation: thou art glorified: thou hadst removed it far unto all the ends of the earth.

16 Lord, in trouble have they visited thee, they poured out a prayer when thy chastening was upon them.

17 Like as a woman with child, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O Lord.

18 We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen.

19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

If I can do a religious it can be a funny

Isaiah 27:1-6; 12-13:

In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

2 In that day sing ye unto her, A vineyard of red wine.

3 I the Lord do keep it; I will water it every moment: lest any hurt it, I will keep it night and day.

4 Fury is not in me: who would set the briers and thorns against me in battle? I would go through them, I would burn them together.

5 Or let him take hold of my strength, that he may make peace with me; and he shall make peace with me.

6 He shall cause them that come of Jacob to take root: Israel shall blossom and bud, and fill the face of the world with fruit.

And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.

13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the Lord in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

Isaiah 28:1-8; 18-29:

Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!

2 Behold, the Lord hath a mighty and strong one, which as a tempest of hail and a destroying storm, as a flood of mighty waters overflowing, shall cast down to the earth with the hand.

3 The crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim, shall be trodden under feet:

4 And the glorious beauty, which is on the head of the fat valley, shall be a fading flower, and as the hasty fruit before the summer; which when he that looketh upon it seeth, while it is yet in his hand he eateth it up.

5 In that day shall the Lord of hosts be for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of his people,

6 And for a spirit of judgment to him that sitteth in judgment, and for strength to them that turn the battle to the gate.

7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.

8 For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.

And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

19 From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.

20 For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.

21 For the Lord shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.

22 Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord God of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth.

23 Give ye ear, and hear my voice; hearken, and hear my speech.

24 Doth the plowman plow all day to sow? doth he open and break the clods of his ground?

25 When he hath made plain the face thereof, doth he not cast abroad the fitches, and scatter the cummin, and cast in the principal wheat and the appointed barley and the rie in their place?

26 For his God doth instruct him to discretion, and doth teach him.

27 For the fitches are not threshed with a threshing instrument, neither is a cart wheel turned about upon the cummin; but the fitches are beaten out with a staff, and the cummin with a rod.

28 Bread corn is bruised; because he will not ever be threshing it, nor break it with the wheel of his cart, nor bruise it with his horsemen.

29 This also cometh forth from the Lord of hosts, which is wonderful in counsel, and excellent in working.

@dshipp17: Out of curiosity, why're you posting random passages?

That's just what he does. No one know why. I think the constant spamming is an attempt to get people to stop even bothering to come to this thread. Back in the day, there were sometimes even good discussions about religion on this thread... believe it or not.

That's randomness for ya.

The interesting thing about religions is that basically only one can be correct, making all the others false.

@lunacyde:

Zoroasterianism is the true and correct religion.

Isaiah 29:7-12; 30:8-26:

And the multitude of all the nations that fight against Ariel, even all that fight against her and her munition, and that distress her, shall be as a dream of a night vision.

8 It shall even be as when an hungry man dreameth, and, behold, he eateth; but he awaketh, and his soul is empty: or as when a thirsty man dreameth, and, behold, he drinketh; but he awaketh, and, behold, he is faint, and his soul hath appetite: so shall the multitude of all the nations be, that fight against mount Zion.

9 Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.

10 For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.

11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:

12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.

Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever:

9 That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the Lord:

10 Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:

11 Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us.

12 Wherefore thus saith the Holy One of Israel, Because ye despise this word, and trust in oppression and perverseness, and stay thereon:

13 Therefore this iniquity shall be to you as a breach ready to fall, swelling out in a high wall, whose breaking cometh suddenly at an instant.

14 And he shall break it as the breaking of the potters' vessel that is broken in pieces; he shall not spare: so that there shall not be found in the bursting of it a sherd to take fire from the hearth, or to take water withal out of the pit.

15 For thus saith the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not.

16 But ye said, No; for we will flee upon horses; therefore shall ye flee: and, We will ride upon the swift; therefore shall they that pursue you be swift.

17 One thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one; at the rebuke of five shall ye flee: till ye be left as a beacon upon the top of a mountain, and as an ensign on an hill.

18 And therefore will the Lord wait, that he may be gracious unto you, and therefore will he be exalted, that he may have mercy upon you: for the Lord is a God of judgment: blessed are all they that wait for him.

19 For the people shall dwell in Zion at Jerusalem: thou shalt weep no more: he will be very gracious unto thee at the voice of thy cry; when he shall hear it, he will answer thee.

20 And though the Lord give you the bread of adversity, and the water of affliction, yet shall not thy teachers be removed into a corner any more, but thine eyes shall see thy teachers:

21 And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left.

22 Ye shall defile also the covering of thy graven images of silver, and the ornament of thy molten images of gold: thou shalt cast them away as a menstruous cloth; thou shalt say unto it, Get thee hence.

23 Then shall he give the rain of thy seed, that thou shalt sow the ground withal; and bread of the increase of the earth, and it shall be fat and plenteous: in that day shall thy cattle feed in large pastures.

24 The oxen likewise and the young asses that ear the ground shall eat clean provender, which hath been winnowed with the shovel and with the fan.

25 And there shall be upon every high mountain, and upon every high hill, rivers and streams of waters in the day of the great slaughter, when the towers fall.

26 Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the Lord bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.

Simply because you can't or wont find any meaning in Holy Scripture, that doesn't make them random, especially since there is clearly order to them; one chapter leads to another chapter, verse to verse, etc.

Well, no one knows why you posted your "Evidence for Evolution" thread, after you created the science thread; if Holy Scripture is spamming then certainly that is very much useless spam.

@dshipp17 said:

Oh, no, it's still very much random; that much is clear.

Isaiah 31:1-5; 32:1-8:

Woe to them that go down to Egypt for help; and stay on horses, and trust in chariots, because they are many; and in horsemen, because they are very strong; but they look not unto the Holy One of Israel, neither seek the Lord!

2 Yet he also is wise, and will bring evil, and will not call back his words: but will arise against the house of the evildoers, and against the help of them that work iniquity.

3 Now the Egyptians are men, and not God; and their horses flesh, and not spirit. When the Lord shall stretch out his hand, both he that helpeth shall fall, and he that is holpen shall fall down, and they all shall fail together.

4 For thus hath the Lord spoken unto me, Like as the lion and the young lion roaring on his prey, when a multitude of shepherds is called forth against him, he will not be afraid of their voice, nor abase himself for the noise of them: so shall the Lord of hosts come down to fight for mount Zion, and for the hill thereof.

5 As birds flying, so will the Lord of hosts defend Jerusalem; defending also he will deliver it; and passing over he will preserve it.

Behold, a king shall reign in righteousness, and princes shall rule in judgment.

2 And a man shall be as an hiding place from the wind, and a covert from the tempest; as rivers of water in a dry place, as the shadow of a great rock in a weary land.

3 And the eyes of them that see shall not be dim, and the ears of them that hear shall hearken.

4 The heart also of the rash shall understand knowledge, and the tongue of the stammerers shall be ready to speak plainly.

5 The vile person shall be no more called liberal, nor the churl said to be bountiful.

6 For the vile person will speak villany, and his heart will work iniquity, to practise hypocrisy, and to utter error against the Lord, to make empty the soul of the hungry, and he will cause the drink of the thirsty to fail.

7 The instruments also of the churl are evil: he deviseth wicked devices to destroy the poor with lying words, even when the needy speaketh right.

8 But the liberal deviseth liberal things; and by liberal things shall he stand.

@dshipp17:

Which Old Testament is Holier and Biblier, the Greek translation that people used in Jesus time or the Hebrew version?

Where does it say that Jesus would be a Nazarene?

Who decided that the books of the bible should be in the bible?

@spareheadone: let me jump in and help with this one. The Hebrew word “Nazarene” can be translated into the English word “sprout”, Nazareth literally meaning “sprout town”. There are several verses in the Hebrew Scriptures that refer to the coming messiah as being a sprout ie a Nazarene.

Jeremiah 23:5-“....I will raise up to David a righteous Sprout, and a king will reign and show insight...”

Jeremiah 33:15-“in those days and in that time I will cause to Sprout for David a righteous sprout...”

Zechariah 3:8-“hear please o high priest Joshua, you and your companions who sit before you, for these men serve as a sign, look I am bringing in my servant Sprout”

Isaiah 11:1-“a tree will grow out of the stump of Jesse and a sprout from his roots will bear fruit”

So on several occasions it was foretold that the coming messiah would be a “sprout” or a Nazarene.

@firestarlord73194:

Thankyou. it was so good to get a straight up answer.

How bout the other two questions?

@spareheadone: I did have a dream this morning about being an Archangel playing baseball with my brethren (fellow Archangels). Not sure if this relevant or not.

@jexsu:

Dreams are very relevant to religion and spirituality.

Do you have any interpretation? Perhaps you are like me and you love to play against people who you think are your own people. Perhaps you like to help hone their skills by being adversarial?

I wouldn't say they're relevant to religion, but spirituality, sure.

I don't usually do interpretations. In fact, I use my dreams to create stories. In the Fan-Fic or Artist Show-Off forums, I've posted "profiles" of each character I design from my dreams. That's pretty much as far as I go.

@spareheadone: no problem, glad to help. As far as which version is “holier” or more appropriate for worship, the original Hebrew or the Greek copy of the Hebrew Scriptures (the Septuagint)..... the Greek version contained in addition to the translation of the original text, apocryphal writings that are not considered part of the Bible canon. The first century Christians and Christ himself only quoted from the original Hebrew texts in the New Testament. At Luke 24:44 Jesus himself identifies the writings that he references “the law of Moses and in the prophets and Psalms.” So Jesus and his early disciples would not find the apocryphal works appropriate. As far as who compiled the order of the scriptures Jewish tradition has it that Ezra started this work for the Hebrew text and Nehemiah completed it. The Christian Greek scriptures or the New Testament is credited as being catalogued by the catholic council of carthage (397 ce) however earlier catalogues have been found that were penned by ancient copyists such as Origen, Clement, and Tertullian. However, 1 Peter 1:21 and 2 Timothy 3:16 tell us that these scriptures are “inspired of God” and it is due to His influence and spirit that we have the completed scriptures as we have them today. The fact that so many movements and regimes have dedicated themselves to stomping out the Bible from being dispersed and translated and yet it remains to be the most widely distributed book on the planet today is testament to that fact that God is the one that deserves the credit for us having the Bible as we do today

@firestarlord73194:

Are you a JW ?

@spareheadone: I am

@firestarlord73194:

Jesus references the book of Enoch. What do you make of that? the main reference was in Matt 24 I believe.

@spareheadone: do you have in mind the specific verse? Matthew 24 Jesus informs the disciples about what signs to look out for that identify his presence and the last days. He makes reference to Daniel and Noah but nothing of Enoch.

@firestarlord73194:

I will get the quote from Enoch. Bear with me.....

@spareheadone: no problem

@firestarlord73194:

Enoch

62

1 And thus the Lord commanded the kings and the mighty and the exalted, and those who dwell

on the earth, and said: ’Open your eyes and lift up your horns if ye are able to recognize the Elect

One.’ 2 And the Lord of Spirits seated him on the throne of His glory, And the spirit of

righteousness was poured out upon him, And the word of his mouth slays all the sinners, And all

the unrighteous are destroyed from before his face. 3 And there shall stand up in that day all the

kings and the mighty, And the exalted and those who hold the earth, And they shall see and

recognize How he sits on the throne of his glory, And righteousness is judged before him, And no

lying word is spoken before him. 4 Then shall pain come upon them as on a woman in travail, [And

she has pain in bringing forth] When her child enters the mouth of the womb, And she has pain in

bringing forth. 5 And one portion of them shall look on the other, And they shall be terrified, And

they shall be downcast of countenance, And pain shall seize them, When they see that Son of Man

Sitting on the throne of his glory. 6 And the kings and the mighty and all who possess the earth

shall bless and glorify and extol him who rules over all, who was hidden. 7 For from the beginning

the Son of Man was hidden, And the Most High preserved him in the presence of His might, And

revealed him to the elect. 8 And the congregation of the elect and holy shall be sown. And all the

elect shall stand before him on that day. 9 And all the kings and the mighty and the exalted and

those who rule the earth Shall fall down before him on their faces, And worship and set their hope

upon that Son of Man, And petition him and supplicate for mercy at his hands. 10 Nevertheless that

Lord of Spirits will so press them That they shall hastily go forth from His presence, And their

faces shall be filled with shame, And the darkness grow deeper on their faces. 11 And He will

deliver them to the angels for punishment, To execute vengeance on them because they have

oppressed His children and His elect 12 And they shall be a spectacle for the righteous and for His

elect: They shall rejoice over them, Because the wrath of the Lord of Spirits resteth upon them, And

His sword is drunk with their blood. 13 And the righteous and elect shall be saved on that day, And

they shall never thence forward see the face of the sinners and unrighteous. 14 And the Lord of

Spirits will abide over them, And with that Son of Man shall they eat And lie down and rise up for

ever and ever. 15 And the righteous and elect shall have risen from the earth, And ceased to be of

downcast countenance. And they shall have been clothed with garments of glory, 16 And these

shall be the garments of life from the Lord of Spirits: And your garments shall not grow old, Nor

your glory pass away before the Lord of Spirits.

@firestarlord73194:

ah sorry its Matt 25

@spareheadone: and forgive the confusion, but example of Jesus saying these specific things? While there are similar themes and phrasing between this selection and some of what Jesus said these are also the same themes and phrases used in other parts of the canon Bible that Jesus himself admitted to having read (psalms, prophets, the law) so that’s likely where Jesus first learned those said phrases. The biggest driving force behind the book of Enoch being non canon is the fact it was traced back to having been written between the first and second century BCE, meaning it was written long after Moses was dead and gone meaning it wouldn’t have been written by Enoch or anyone from his time period (considering he died before the flood and long before Moses was even born).

@firestarlord73194:

I'm just learning that Chapters 37–71 of the Book of Enoch are referred to as the Book of Parables.

The Book of Parables uses the expression Son of Man for the eschatological protagonist, who is also called “Righteous One”, “Chosen One”, and “Messiah”,and sits on the throne of glory in the final judgment.

The Book of Parables section could have been written in the Common Era (CE) and could have been written by a Christian.

I do like the idea that Jesus was influenced by The Book of Parables though.

Isaiah 33:1-4; 23-24; 35:3-10:

Woe to thee that spoilest, and thou wast not spoiled; and dealest treacherously, and they dealt not treacherously with thee! when thou shalt cease to spoil, thou shalt be spoiled; and when thou shalt make an end to deal treacherously, they shall deal treacherously with thee.

2 O Lord, be gracious unto us; we have waited for thee: be thou their arm every morning, our salvation also in the time of trouble.

3 At the noise of the tumult the people fled; at the lifting up of thyself the nations were scattered.

4 And your spoil shall be gathered like the gathering of the caterpiller: as the running to and fro of locusts shall he run upon them.

Thy tacklings are loosed; they could not well strengthen their mast, they could not spread the sail: then is the prey of a great spoil divided; the lame take the prey.

24 And the inhabitant shall not say, I am sick: the people that dwell therein shall be forgiven their iniquity.

Strengthen ye the weak hands, and confirm the feeble knees.

4 Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.

5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.

6 Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.

7 And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes.

8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.

9 No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there:

10 And the ransomed of the Lord shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

Stan Lee

Douglas Rain, Stratford Festival actor and voice of HAL in 2001: A Space Odyssey, dies at 90