Pro-wrestling discussion thread

I would hate to see someone beat Ric Flair's record! WWE puts it at 16 but its really somewhere between 22-25 depending on which changes you want to include. Flair won the bulk of his titles back in the territory days when even Vince McMahon voted to see who would be the NWA champion. Flair would primarily wrestle the local territory champion wherever he was for a 1 hour "broadway". Generally, Flair would wrestle every night of the week and twice on Saturdays and Sundays. Most of Flairs titles occurred when the champion was expected to hold the title for a while to help raise up stars in other territories.

Cena deserves the praise and accolades. He's done everything that Vince has asked of him and has done a lot for Make-a-Wish and Connor's Cure appearances. He wrestled in a different era than Flair did and didn't have to have the schedule and wrestle the variety of people with everyone counting on his name and performance alone to make the show. I know "wins" don't matter, but I would like for Flair to hold that record.

I have zero interest right now in Raw or SD. NXT, MLW and AEW take up most of my viewing time. Even NWA interests me more which is really saying something.

There is a simple way to have your cake and eat it too. Have Cena break Flair's record that WWE acknowledges but leave the actual number alone. Even Flair has thrown his support for that very idea.

I thought Ric Flair himself said he was a 21-time World Champion ? In any case, I always thought it would be someone like John Cena to break that 16-time World Championship record. At first,I thought it would have been Triple H but Cena will do if it is to happen.

Well, I guess Ric Flair would still hold the legitimate World Championship Record while John Cena would be the record holder for the WWE. Technically that could stand because Ric Flair was only WWF World Champion what 2 or 3 times of his 16 recognized title reigns ? Maybe that's why the WWE short changes him because his Title Reigns are not as plentiful as in other Wrestling Organizations.

It is inevitable that someone will break the record. Cena certainly has been loyal to WWE and deserves it. Flair was not a WWE creation and only had two short world title runs with the company in 92. His legacy is much more associated with the NWA and WCW.

Some of Flair's title reigns are not counted because they were not officially sanctioned by the NWA or WCW. For instance, I believe there was a situation in Puerto Rico were Flair was suppose to win but the people were rioting and Flair pulled the guy on top of him and had the referee count to 3 in order to get out of the building alive. In Japan Flair "lost" there, but WCW did not recognize it. To Japanese fans Flair won the title back at Superbrawl III but in the US it was portrayed as Flair retaining. I think there is also an unrecognized German title change with, I think, Harley Race, and another Caribbean phantom title change.

@just_sayin: I’m aware Flair has about 20 something title reigns but as far as WWE goes, their record is 16. Cena has held this industry and that company on his back for 17+ years. He is tied with Flair right now and if anyone deserves to beat that record is him. In terms of scheduling , it’s not vastly different in how busy Cena was. Promotions, make-a-wishes, autographs everything, 320 something days he’s on the road. Flair can keep his 20 + reign, but Cena should get the 17.

Cole vs Ciampa vs Balor would be awesome, but I think Balor is gonna feud with Gargano sooner or later, so maybe Keith Lee is a better option.

Luke Harper, Sin Cara and the Ascension have been released

I can see the Ascension and Harper ending up in AEW. WWE wasn't using any of those people well.

Some good returns on Smackdown:

Usos

Sheamus

John Morrison

Good show tonight from MLW. Main event with Contra Unit vs the Stronghearts was fun.

Just my imagination but it seems both the Usos and Sheamus have lost some mass on them. Looks good on the Usos who I think are doing it too keep up with the younger, lighter weight guys that seems to be coming up in wwe. Sheamus I'm not sure. I mean his thing is suppose to be a big muscular brute. I guess he could go to the wiry Irish look but he's going to have to go much further. Either way it's jarring.

Always liked John Morrison superficially. My only problem is he has a tendency to be a bit soft in his moves. Not sure what he's doing with the Miz other than history. They don't fit together anymore.

Personally I think it's time for the Miz to move to manager/announcer/host position or something of the like.

NJPW Wrestle Kingdom 14 was absolutely incredible.

@dernman: Sheamus hopefully gets a push again. I remember at one time he was a main eventer.

@the_stegman: I don't know how much of one he'll have considering his health issues. Something to do with his spinal stenosis. People speculated that's why he was teamed up with Cesaro to prolong his career.

hmm I wonder if that's why he lost some mass to his body. To ease the pressure both from carrying that weight and lifting the weights to remain that big.

I wouldn't mind a push from Sheamus but hopefully see something different from him. More roguish and less stiff maybe?

@dernman: I didn't know about his health, that's too bad, but explains the less focus on him. I'll take him anyway I can, he has a pretty cool gimmick and mic skills.

@dernman: When Sheamus was training with Cena they were doing some squats and Sheamus said he normally works around 140kgs in working weight, so around 310lbs and he doesn’t have a lot more in him than 315 I think. You can definitely tell that the spine issue has kind of taken its toll if he’s only using that much weight.

Alex Hammerstone is the new PCW Ultra champ!

Dude is a beast.

👏👏👏

AEW has some talent but booking every match 50/50 is bad booking.

People shit all over WWE for 50/50 booking, and here AEW is doing the same shit. They kept saying "wins and loses count" and had kept active record of it, including having seeds.

Also some of the storylines are too convoluted and the tag matches feel way too much like Indy "five star matches" (IE obvious cooperation, finisher spamming, confusing and chaotic tag matches and spamming dives in every match).

AEW booking is still in its relative infancy. They’ve been on tv for 4 months. They still lack a lot of star power, so in order to actually build up talent you need to have some guys lose and also win. Darby Allen has lost more matches than he’s won but he’s slowly getting that push. PAC has lost more than he’s won but he gets a few here and there to make him credible. Their booking isn’t perfect but they’re still getting they’re kinks out.

The big problems are their lack of star power and their women’s divisions. They need a mid-card belt or two to get some of these really talented guys on air time and some credibility. Them not doing anything and losing and winning over each other WITHOUT anything to chase after I find to be a bigger issue.

Their women’s division also needs an overhaul. Riho is ok, but she’s never there’. Britt Baker is still green as hell. Statlander was a god send of a sign. Rose has potential. Big Swole is really liked but I think she needs work. Penelope Ford is actually really good. If it were up to me, Shida should’ve been the inaugural champion and build the division around her. She’s the best thing they got.

Some of the other points I agree, I hate 6 man tag matches and I don’t particularly care for spotty types matches like the Young Bucks and what not. Luchasaurus I like. Don’t care for Marko Stunt too much. Jungle Boy is ok. I really think to give them a fair chance, we need to give them a year to really cement things and see who is elevated and what not. They have great talent like Mox. Jericho has been a great champion. Omega Id say is arguably one of the top 3 wrestlers on the planet when he gets the opportunity. SCU, Private Party, Lucha Bros, Best Friends, the Jungle team ( brainfarting). It’s the mid-card that needs most work and women’s division needs a solid foundation as well.

Just my 2 cents.

I don't care what people say. Male vs female matches are stupid and 98% shouldn't be done in my opinion.

@dernman: hmm why do you say that?

@straight-fire: I feel this is one of those things that, if you have to ask you wont agree when I tell you.

@dernman: Is it because they're physically inferior?

@straight-fire: I wouldn't use those words as it's too general. Like how? I could be wrong but I don't see much difference in physicality when it comes to stamina or agility.

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Before anyone says anything, no I'm not a fans of wrestlers the size of Rey Mysterio taking on those the size of the Big Show or Brock. There is a reason why MMA/Boxing and others have separate divisions and weight classes.

@dernman:

Well, I was referring to strength. And from what I understand, you're not a fan of the David vs. Goliath cliche in wrestling which is fair because they can be hit-or-miss, but I try not to apply logic to something that doesn't use any most of the time.

@straight-fire: I don't mind it when it's not that big but there are limits. I'm going to have to disagree because wrestling does have a certain logic to it. It's just bent and you have to apply suspension of disbelief in certain places. Like supernatural powers for certain characters like undertaker, the fiend. Woman vs men those there isn't an excuse to call for that though.

It's like certain moves how some you can suspend belief and others just end up looking stupid. Not even moves but some on how you do them. For example the guy jumps off the rope into someone or a crowd to knocks them down. Its fine if you do it fast but if you're standing there like a brain dead dumbass for what seems like a half and hour for the guy to do it it's dumb.

Like I said there is logic, it just has it's own bent version and sometimes break it.

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Edit: Having someone like Rey take out someone like the Show makes Show look like a weak, baindead buffoon and I won't be able to take him seriously again.

Edit2: Make another point connected to something I said earlier in the post about logic and suspension of disbelief. I would actually be more ok with say Kenny Omega taking on a little girl like he did in the past then I would an adult female wrestler.

Why because one begs you to either take it as a silly laugh or suspend disbelieve and the other says take it more seriously. So ya there is logic to it even if it's a little bent.

I saw some of the Men's Royal Rumble and thought it was Pretty Good. It was like Brock Lesnar was running the Gauntlet there for a while running through everyone as the Number 1 entry. It was Very Awesome to see Edge come back that caught me way off guard. WWE Legend returns and then at that Randy Orton showed up and we briefly had Rated RKO in the Royal Rumble, I figured one of them would have to snake the other. It was Edge getting Orton, which almost prompted me to think Edge could actually win this thing. I was kind of surprised Drew Mcintyre won the Royal Rumble but it was another happy surprise IMO.

I also saw a little of the Bray Wyatt vs Daniel Bryan match. I just don't feel Daniel Bryan is a good match for The Fiend. I would love to see The Fiend vs Samoa Joe or even Braun Strowman. It seems like Braun Strowman is taking a back seat though. Not as over as he once was ?

All the matches were good and the men’s rumble was good. The women’s rumble was also good until the end in which case I threw my phone across the room. Solid paper view but a very stupid decision on creative’s part for the women’s rumble winner.

@god_spawn:

I'm watching the woman's RRumble match as I type this.

When it was just Bianca and Alexa I thought that was the end of it. When Alexa was thrown over I was surprisingly ok with it and the what I thought was the winner. Bianca had a good performance and I thought it was a good ending. Then Flair showed up and I new she wasn't going to be the winner. I'm really surprised that Bianca got booed when she thew Alexa over. I didn't know Bliss was still over and I felt the hardcore would have wanted it to someone else. Anyway when Flair came out the match started going downhill for me. It now feels like the same old same old.

Toni Storm just arrived so maybe that will switch things up. Nope, it's not Belair was just eliminated and Kelly Kelly just came out. At least she was quickly thrown over.

What's up with the Flairs they're always bleeding in their matches? *snicker* Glamazon's hair has so much blood in it that it looks like she dyed it. Blackheart.........I don't know her. I don't see her winning even if I didn't think Flair was going to win this.

Santina Marella just got here......Not sure how I feel about that.

Bazler is the final wrestler. Ok Maybe the match can pull me back in. Eeh She's cleaning how. While not a bad thing, just not interested how it's happening.

sigh It's over. Predictable. I just wish they did it interesting. How she won was terrible. It didn't make her look good and made Bazler look like a fool.

The match really should have ended with Bliss and Belair with the latter the winner. I'm not even a fan of hers the match being only half done. It's just the match and her was done well up until then. All down hill from there. Anyone really surprised Flair won? I don't know how they're going to spin the WM match to separate it from other matched and be interesting.

Edit: Turns out the Glamazon also was busted open..

The Fiend doesn't look as good without the special lights. I get why people didn't like the dark red light but you can't go full on WWE everything brighter than the sun lights with him. There has to be some kind of middle ground.

Bryan looks so much younger without the hair. He looked like an old man with it.

I love this event, but I really hate Charlotte winning Women's Rumble. Like... Why? She clearly doesn't need that. Baszler would've been perfect.

Men's Royal Rumble is on point on the other hand.

So it seems Baszler and Roman were suppose to win the royal rumbles but it was changed because of smart money bets.

@dernman: Idk how much stock I put into something like that. I can say they flew into this rumble with absolutely zero idea with it. But Drew was being booked as a face for almost a month now, so him going in and winning with being really the only guy left on Raw to really put up a fight against Lesnar was a good call.

I am surprised Charlotte won. Her winning made no sense, but I can see it having been planned for awhile or at least going into it. She has to be apart of every major title feud. She had to look strong against the tag champs by herself multiple times. She had to be in the main event at Mania. She had to win three championships this past year. She had to beat Trish Stratus. This is basically Vince getting what he wants this time because Becky was so over last year.

But I do think Roman and maybe like Velasquez were pretty common winners I heard, and Baszler just made too much sense with dropping the belt. But sense isn’t always in WWE’s vocabulary so some money bets probably didn’t change anything.

Seeing Edge return was excellent even if I did expect it.

LOL I find it most of times we complain how matches involving men are filled with stupid decisions but this time its the opposite

anyway edge returning was cool

Anyway i dont know but i wanna see Reigns vs Goldberg in WM 36 .....

That Black Panther attire that MVP wore in the Royal Rumble was Awesome. I forgot to mention that earlier.

Edge vs Randy Orton looks like a possible build up now considering what happened on RAW. I am really happy to see Edge back.

I wonder what is next for Bray Wyatt ? They are not just gonna keep Daniel Bryan going after him are they ? I like Daniel but I am not seeing him as the one who takes down The Fiend.

Eh, don’t really mind Charlotte winning, cause I feel like she’ll go after the NXT championship instead. Love the fact that McIntyre won, been a while since I’ve marked out, but I did during three moments of the PPV, when he eliminated Lesnar, when Edge returned, and when McIntyre won it.

They got potential for a grand story of McIntyre fulfilling his destiny as the “chosen one” that he was touted as back in 09

@mike_fowler:

Well, it doesn't matter which belt Charlotte goes after, I'm just tired of seeing her get shot after shot. Like, let other girls shine and stop feeding us the same people. I like her but this is ridiculous.

As for Drew, I'm pretty confident he'll win. They gotta be stupid to waste this opportunity.

That sounds interesting... I've seen this a lot, but where did people come to this conclusion?

Because Charlotte vs. Becky/Bayley has been done to death, and from a kayfabe standpoint Charlotte owes Rhea Ripley a receipt.

I see, didn't know about that. It makes sense though. Ripley seems untouchable currently, and WrestleMania is coming soon. She needs a decent feud.

The Fiend seems even more untouchable, so I'm curious what will they do with the character here. I hope they're done with the Daniel Bryan storyline. Maybe Roman Reigns?

I was thinking Roman would bre next too. The Fiend goes after people from his past, and there was that whole storyline of "anyone but you, Roman". It would make sense and be a huge feud for both of them.

@straight-fire: I personally don’t care if she gets shot after shot if it’s against actual different people and helps put eyes on other wrestlers. She goes for Rhea Ripley, that’ll put even more eyes on NXT, and helps remind people that it is a legitimate third brand. They’ve been doing an overall good job so far, what with them winning survivor series, and I feel like the winner of a rumble choosing to go after it’s main title is a really good step

I don’t get this? WWE has been making stupid decisions all around. And I’ve made it pretty clear in other posts over the last few months that the handling of women’s divisions in these main companies has been terrible. Raw has been booked around 4 women in Kairi, Asuka, Becky and Charlotte for months. Smackdown is booked around Sasha and Bayley and whoever is the flavor of the month against them. We’ve had Mandy and Sonya vs Bliss and Cross in how many forms for months? Lacey is not a top face for the division is green as hell. The match at the rumble was only bearable because Bayley is that good. But despite that, Bayley is the least relevant person in the feud behind Lacey and Sasha.

Lana and Liv is terrible with Lana being terrible and they blew Liv’s return as a lesbian? when Sonya IS and that’s part of her gimmick.

Charlotte IS the main issue on raw. She complained a month or two ago that she feels the least important she has ever been. Despite this past year having 3 title runs with a total of a week. Did not need to be inserted in the main event at mania but was anyway. Almost beat the tag champions by herself in Asuka and Kairi. No sold attacks from Kairi for months when they were in the ring. Had 2 tag title opportunities against them and Becky. No sold getting rammed into a steel pole and buried Sarah Logan. Legit almost ended Kairi’s career by slapping her in the face and powerbombing her through a table when Kairi was telling her no by slapping her arm and Charlotte later admitting she said Kairi was hurt but wanted to keep the fans invested. Becky picked up on it, Asuka did. Becky even later rolled her under the ring. And here she is winning the rumble when Baszler shouldve, but no, she wanted the accolade and mania match and Vince let it happen.

And over on AEW, Riho is the champion for whatever reason she is never there, should be Shida. They’ve been pushing for Britt Baker real hard despite her being green. They lack massive star power, failed to sign Mercedes Martinez. Nyla Rose has potential, and Statlander is great. The Nightmare Collective is their worst segment, but Kong is great. They need star power and the division to have some cohesiveness, but they don’t.

Being blunt, SD, Raw, and AEW need complete division overhauls. Charlotte needs to stop being so selfish and let some other people shine. Becky, while I love her to death, is probably going to drop the title soon since there is nothing left for her to do. Except either beat Baszler because they do have unfinished business, or her and Ronda having their true 1v1. NXT is the only brand that is actually handling all their women very well, and they could all learn a thing or two from them.

@god_spawn: I don't think Charlotte is going stop until she surpass her father

How many titles Ric won 16 right ?

I think wwe really trying make Charlotte surpass her father

@hyoname: That’s very clearly their intentions. But Charlotte has years left in the company. She needs to realize what is best for business and not her. 2019 compared to 2018 for the divisions is almost night and day. It’s been terrible. Giving her more title reigns Isn’t helping her get anymore over.

@god_spawn: agree

You hardly ever hear anyone speak of Big Van Vader. Dude was a Legend in WCW.