POLITICS THREAD

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#8301 Posted by willpayton (22200 posts) - - Show Bio

@boschepg said:
@willpayton said:

So the President of Lies is at it again, with another false narrative and conspiracy theory. I cant believe this is really what this country has gotten to. Every day is a new low.

But the sad part is not that we have a pathological liar, a racist, and a total moron as President, it's that some Americans are still making excuses and regurgitating the right-wing propaganda from this guy and his corrupt party. Trump can be voted our or impeached, but the lack of intelligence and morality from the right cant be fixed. The next election will be a shit show the likes of which we've never seen before.

The MSM gives the same false narrative in proportion.

No. Anyone who believes that the media lies as much as Trump is just totally out to lunch. Trump cannot go a single speech without blatantly multiple times. He just doesnt give a shit. Lying and repeating lies is just second nature to him, and why not... his supporters dont seem to care. Or if they do, they tell themselves this new lie he's propagated... that the media are the REAL liars. Nice!

Even the notion that there's this monolithic "MSM" is absurd. The main stream media is made up of a lot of different people and institutions, and trying to paint all of them with a single claim like this is just a fallacious argument. It's lazy and it's an argument that the right has appeared to perfect. If you can demonize an entire type of people, then you can cast doubt in the minds of your supporters. And if it happens that you're a pathological liar and you've based your entire life on scamming people and skirting the law, then trying to demonize and discredit the media is exactly what you want, because they're the ones who will be trying to tell the people the truth. Honestly, Goebbels would be inspired by Trump and what the Republican Party has achieved over the last 20 or so years.

Its like this week when many Democrats told the Supreme Court to 'heal' cuz they don't agree with their narrative of law. And before you bring up its cuz of Kavanaugh or Gorsuch, they have voted apolitically where Kavanaugh has even sided to protect Planned Parenthood. The Supreme Court is doing their job. If Congress has a problem with their decisions, then change the laws but don't threaten a branch of government because they do not follow the collective

And what does that have to do with the media???

BTW, I had no idea what you're even talking about, so I had to Google it. I'm supposing this is the latest story that is making the rounds in right-wing media. Hmm... ok. So, some Dems said that the Supreme Court should "heal itself", and somehow that's a "threat"? How so? If anything, it seems like good advice given the partisanship of the modern Supreme Court.

The left is insane.

Uhmm... ok. If you say so.

Everyone that has any left-leaving ideas is insane? Or just most of them? Please define what the "left" is and what "insane" means, and then also please provide evidence to support this claim.

But, I'm sure the right is totally sane. Right? LOL...

They don't believe in free speech to all.

Oh, wow, not at all. Well yeah I guess that's pretty bad... if it were true.

Where's your evidence that "the left" dont believe in free speech? Somehow I dont think you have any.

Is it the "left" that believes in lying about the media, calling them the "enemy of the people", and constantly tries to delegitimize them and anyone who dares to criticize the president and his policies? Is it the left that is against exercises of freedom of speech like flag burning? Is it the left that wants to increase libel laws to target news sources that say things they dont like? Is it the left that violated the First Amendment by blocking people on Twitter who criticized Trump? Is it the left who has literally told people to ignore Congressional subpoenas? Is it the left who has obstructed justice, covered up evidence, and lied to the American people about information relevant to an election?

Oh, right, no that's Trump and the Republicans. Where's my evidence?? Here:

63% of Republicans Say Journalists Are an “Enemy of the American People”

53% of Republicans Favor Stripping U.S. Citizenship from Flag Burners

Trump wants to "open up" libel laws to shut down stories he doesnt like

Trump violated First Amendment by blocking Twitter users

Trump Tells Aides to Defy Subpoenas From Congress

Mueller report shows that Trump obstructed justice, but DoJ rules didnt allow prosecution

Sorry, but it's looking like it's conservatives who have a problem with freedom of speech and freedom of the press.

They believe it only to the media which pumps their propaganda narrative.

Uhuh... do tell us how.

This week alone

Protest in front of McConnell's house where they are chanting, stab the mofo through the heart and when McConnell's camp posts video of the threatening actions, his account gets shut down for showing the truth (suppression of speech? Inciting violence)

That might be the case, but you're talking about a few people who might have been doing/saing that. How exactly does that paint other on the left with the same brush?

So you're saying that if I find a few conservatives who are murderers, then by your own logic conservatives are murderers??

MSNBC actually has a guy that said people in the Hamptons should stand in front of the CEOs house, who through Trump a fundraiser in NY, to stand outside his houses with pitch forks and torches (that sure does sound like inciting violence)

Again, a minority of people. Do you have any actual polls of liberals who feel this way? No, I dont think you do. That's the difference here, when I make claims about "Republicans", I back them up with numbers and sources. I dont show stories of a few random nutcases, I show stories about the leader of the Republican Party, and about laws and votes taken by Republicans in Congress, and about polls showing how most Republicans feel.

When you bring out a couple stories about some random individuals and then proceed to conclude that "the left in insane" you're being disingenuous and spreading more nonsense and propaganda, knowing that most people who read this wont care about the truth... they just want their existing opinions reinforced.

CNN anchor actually said that Trump said all Latinos should be eradicated and everyone on the panel agreed Trump said it, but the host had to tweet Trump didn't say eradication.

Ok, again one guy on CNN said something. How does that prove anything about an entire class of people? Or an entire network? Does that anchor represent all liberals? You havent even said who that person is, so I have to speculate about what their political leaning even is... for all I know he's a conservative.

If the right is turning a blind eye what is the left doing, cuz it isn't resistance

I dont know what "the left" is doing, sorry, I dont get their newsletter. You'll have to go ask them.

But what I do know is that the right in this country is predominantly supporting and enabling a guy who's a racist and who has been on a campaign to destroy American institutions and values such as the free press, our belief in government (State Department, judiciary, intelligence agencies, etc) and the office of the Presidency itself, and our belief in welcoming immigrants and being a nation that rejects racism and extremism. And I could really go on and on.

The right in this country has continually gotten more and more radical to the point where they now dont believe in government, in the media, in welcoming immigrants, in science and experts, in institutions of higher learning, or even in facts.

This story has played out before in history, and it wont end well.

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#8302 Posted by willpayton (22200 posts) - - Show Bio

@black3stpanth3r said:

@just_sayin:

Over 30 months Obama added almost 1 million more jobs than Trump

Trump entered office on January 20, 2017, and starting with February 2017 he has been President for 30 months. Total job growth during that time has been 5.736 million or 191,000 per month with those results being helped by the tax cut.

Working back from January 2017, Obama’s last month in office, there had been 6.611 million jobs added or 220,000 per month. The difference for the 30 months is 875,000 more jobs or almost 30,000 more per month than Trump.

Note that back in January this year the total difference was only 194,000, which means over the past six months it has increased by 681,000. And looking at the next five months with Obama’s job numbers of 221,000 to 327,000 per month, the gap should only increase and cross 1 million.

Just who do you think you are fooling? Obama had negative job growth in his first 30 months. Here are the numbers from the BLS: (numbers in thousands)

No Caption Provided

Trump has helped bring unemployment to record lows. Some economists claimed 5% unemployment was full employment and we shouldn't expect more. But Trump delivered the lowest unemployment for Americans. He delivered the lowest unemployment for black and Hispanic Americans - something that Democrat policies did not do.

It's truly remarkable how you Trump supporters can look at data and completely fail to accept the facts and context.

Fact 1: When Obama took office the economy was losing around 800,000 jobs per month. This is the legacy left to him by the previous Republican President.

Fact 2: After Obama took office and the stimulus measures started working, the losses started reducing and the economy started improving, as can be seen in the numbers. Anyone can look at that data and they'll see the years of constant job growth under Obama. The stock markets are the same story... years of growth under Obama.

Fact 3: The first year of Trump's presidency, the economy was basically coasting off of the Obama years... so trying to attribute any of that to Trump is just ignorant. Presidents mostly dont own what happens in their first year because that years budget is set by the previous administration, and whatever new policies they put in take time to take effect. The exception is large public works and spending, which do tend to have more immediate effects. The stimulus efforts were such policies.

Fact 4: Trump has done very little to improve job creation or the economy. The tax cuts had some impact, as they're bound to do, but after those effects ended, all we were left with is a skyrocketing debt. As far as most corporations, they already had plenty of cash sitting around before the tax cuts. After the tax cuts, they just made more money and didnt create new jobs. Why would they?

Fact 5: The last year of the Trump presidency, the one where his policies of trade wars and antagonizing our allies have really been starting to work, what has happened? The stock market is down, farmers are having to be bailed out by taxpayer money, other industries like steel are hurting, manufacturing is now the weakest in 3 years, and the housing market is slowing down.

Last Fact: Up until now, Trump has been lying steadily about the economy. At the moment, however, he cant figure out which story to stick to. Is it the story of "the economy is doing great"? Or is it the story that it's doing so badly that the Fed needs to immediately lower rates drastically? If the economy was doing so well, why would rates need to be cut? Is he sticking to the nonsense that the Chinese are paying the tariffs? Or the story that he has to postpone tariffs because of the pain they'll cause for American consumers this Christmas? Is he sticking to the story that "trade wars are good and easy to win"? How about the story that he was going to eliminate the debt? How about the one about creating 5 - 6% growth?

Trump's lies are falling apart faster than the stock market.

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#8303 Posted by just_sayin (3888 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton: Hola Willie! Now I can agree with you that Trump's tariffs are bad economic policy - like Democrat supported $15 minimum wage laws - you think you are socking it to the man, but you just end up hurting the little guy and making everything more expensive. I agree with you that Trump is talking out of both sides wanting rate cuts while saying that his tariffs are good and having government pay farmers. No argument there. When Trump behaves like a Democrat, I for one, Willie, will always condemn him.

I'm so sorry that my 100% accurately communicated facts about the first 30 months of job creation for Trump and Obama offended you. Like Sleepy Joe Biden says " We [Democrats] choose [our] truth, over facts." So I can see why you would be upset. The left was upset when:

1. There was no Trump Russian Collusion. For two years lefties said there was, but then the Senate report came out, then the House report came out, then the Mueller report came out, and the DOJ decision that there was no Russian collusion or no obstruction. Lefties claimed that Mueller thought there was obstruction and would have said so if the DOJ rules permitted it, and then not 15 minutes later, Mueller went on camera and completely blew that up and said that he was not saying that.

2. When lefties learned Trump did not say white Nationalists where fine people. I know this was one of their most sacred "truths", but it just isn't a fact. In the very speech where the left pull the sound bite of Trump saying there were good people on both sides of the Robert E Lee monument debate, Trump says just a few sentences later, that he is not talking about White Nationals. Lefties have told and retold their fact-free truth about that incident over and over again. Intent on painting Trump as a racist rather than being accurate about what was said.

3. When the emoluments clause was laughed out of court. I know more than one person on the left was heart broken over this pipedream.

4. When the Supreme Court explicitly stated that Trump did not try to ban Muslims from entering the US. I know this was another fact-free truth of the Democrat party - retold over and over. It must have stung when in the ruling itself the judges stated that there was never a Muslim ban.

5. When CNN said that Stormy Daniels would end the Trump presidency and she ended up having to pay Trump $250,000.

6. When the SDNY dropped its case against Donald Trump. They were so certain that Trump would get his comeuppance for imagined crimes. but the case was dropped.

7. When there were no charges filed against Trump after Michael Cohen's testimony. Yep. That was another one of the lefty "truths" that went down the toilet too.

I have quite a long list, but I'll stop now of lefty "truths" that were not supported by facts.

Time and time again, those pesky facts have thwarted the left's "truth" about Trump. I have no problem with lefties criticizing Trump for what he actually says and does, but far too often they have demonized him for things he did not say or do.

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#8304 Posted by Noone1996 (13053 posts) - - Show Bio

HuRr DeRr ObAmA iS tHe ReAsOn EcoNomY aNd JoB gRoWtH iS dOiNg welL

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#8305 Posted by kalkent (3763 posts) - - Show Bio

HuRr DeRr ObAmA iS tHe ReAsOn EcoNomY aNd JoB gRoWtH iS dOiNg welL

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#8306 Edited by AbstractRaze (3237 posts) - - Show Bio

If you want to know different conservative and libertarian opinions about propertarianism, the antidote/antithesis of socialist ideologies from the Frankfurt School (School of neo-Marxists interdisciplinary social theory in Germany, which isn't active anymore), visit John Mark's blog and the Propertarian Institute.

John Mark's Blog: https://johnmarksays.com/blog

The Propertarian Institute: https://propertarianism.com/

Propertarianism, or proprietarianism, is a right-libertarian ethical philosophy that advocates Lockean sticky property norms, where an owner keeps his property (more or less) until he consents to gift or sell it. It is also often accompanied with the idea that state monopoly law should be replaced by market-generated law centered on contractual relationships. Propertarian ideals are most commonly cited to advocate for a minarchist or stateless society with governance systems limited to enforcing contracts and private property.

History

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The term appears to have been coined by Edward Cain in 1963:

Since [libertarians' in the United States] use of the word "liberty" refers almost exclusively to property, it would be helpful if we had some other word, such as "propertarian," to describe them. [...] Novelist Ayn Rand is not a conservative at all but claims to be very relevant. She is a radical capitalist, and is the closest to what I mean by a propertarian.

Marcus Cunliffe defined propertarianism in his 1973 lectures as "characteristic values of American history" in regard to property. David Boaz writes that the "propertarian approach to privacy", both morally and legally, has ensured Americans' privacy rights.

Markus Verhaegh states that Rothbardian anarcho-capitalism advocates the neo-Lockean idea that property only legitimately originates from labor and may then only legitimately change hands by trade or gift. Brian Doherty describes Murray Rothbard's form of libertarianism as propertarian because he "reduced all human rights to rights of property, beginning with the natural right of self-ownership"

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#8307 Posted by Dernman (26462 posts) - - Show Bio

@destinyman75: I've turned off of Yang. Ever since some mocked him for crying I've noticed he's been saying and doing some pretty fracked up shit.

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#8308 Edited by destinyman75 (15942 posts) - - Show Bio

@dernman: yeah good point. I do like his economy Ideals Though..Bernie for VP ? I'd have to give more thought into VP.. Certainly not any of the far left folks who are about as bad as Trump tight feild..Yeah Tang would suck honestly as VP thinking about it, unless he has Tulsi's puppet. Tulsi is best at forgien policy..

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#8309 Posted by Dernman (26462 posts) - - Show Bio

@destinyman75: Bernie.

  • Not only 77 years old but is starting to act it.
  • I don't see him wanting to take a VP back seat.
  • I don't feel he's the same candidate he was when he got screwed over by the Dems.
  • To many other things I don't agree with him on.

Honestly I don't see anyone currently in the candidates that inspires me for VP. Though if Tulsi doesn't win I wouldn't mind someone picking her up. I don't see her winning especially after doing things like (I believe, can't confirm) they changed some rule rules to keep her out of a debate.

-----------------------------------------------------

My impossible miracle dream is ticket coming out of the wood work comprised of both Rep and Dem to fly in the face of the extreme partisanship in the culture right now. I'm so biased to the idea I'd be influenced to them right away.

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#8310 Posted by willpayton (22200 posts) - - Show Bio
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#8311 Edited by AbstractRaze (3237 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton said:

Shell workers in Pennsylvania say they were told to either attend a recent Trump event, or not get paid

It's sad when you have to threaten people in order to force them to attend your b.s. campaign rally, which was apparently paid for with taxpayer money... which might well be illegal.

Trump just continues to explore new debts of indecency and illegality... not that the DoJ will do anything about it.

No Caption Provided

Business Insider is an EU controlled propaganda media in the U.S.A , owned by Axel Springer SE in Germany.

Business Insider is an American financial and business news website published by Insider Inc. It operates international editions in the UK, Australia, China, Germany, France, South Africa, India, Italy, Indonesia, Japan, Malaysia, Netherlands, Northern Europe, Poland, Spain and Singapore. Several International editions are published in local languages: Chinese, Dutch, French, Italian, German, Polish and Japanese. It is owned by the German publishing house, Axel Springer SE.

No Caption Provided

Axel Springer SE is a German digital publishing house which is the largest in Europe, with numerous multimedia news brands, such as Bild, Die Welt, and Fakt and more than 15,000 employees. It generated total revenues of about €3.3 billion and an EBITDA of €559 million in the financial year 2015. The digital media activities contribute more than 60% to its revenues and nearly 70% to its EBITDA. Axel Springer’s business is divided into three segments: paid models, marketing models, and classified ad models. Headquartered in Berlin, Germany, the company is active in more than 40 countries with subsidiaries, joint ventures, and licensing.

Business insider is controlled by the International Neo-Liberal and Leftist criminal syndicate, they pretty much follow Joseph Goebbels propaganda system, during the Nazi times.

No Caption Provided

Societas Europaea:

"A societas Europaea (SE; Latin pronunciation: [soˈci.e.taːs ew.roːˈpae.a]; Latin for European society or company; plural: societates Europaeae) is a public company registered in accordance with the corporate law of the European Union (EU), introduced in 2004 with the Council Regulation on the Statute for a European Company. Such a company may more easily transfer to or merge with companies in other member states.

As of April 2018, more than 3,000 registrations have been reported, including the following nine components (18%) of the Euro Stoxx 50 stock market index of leading eurozone companies (excluding the SE designation): Airbus, Allianz, BASF, E.ON, Fresenius, LVMH Moët Hennessy Louis Vuitton, SAP, Schneider Electric and Unibail-Rodamco.

National law continues to supplement the basic rules in the Regulation on formation and mergers. The European Company Regulation is complemented by an Employee Involvement Directive that sets rules for participation by employees on the company's board of directors. There is also a statute allowing European Cooperative Societies."

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#8312 Edited by just_sayin (3888 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton said:

Shell workers in Pennsylvania say they were told to either attend a recent Trump event, or not get paid

It's sad when you have to threaten people in order to force them to attend your b.s. campaign rally, which was apparently paid for with taxpayer money... which might well be illegal.

Trump just continues to explore new debts of indecency and illegality... not that the DoJ will do anything about it.

Huh? Trump did this? Is that really a true statement?

According to the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette it was Shell with the union agreeing that established the criteria for attending the event, not Trump. The invitation was voluntary and no one who did not attend was penalized. Since the event was onsite, and to get paid contractors had to be onsite - to be onsite means that they had to be in attendance (this is a common security issue). So if you are angry you should be angry with Shell and the workers union for holding the event at the work site, not Trump.

Now as someone who lived in Cuba like you did where people were not only forced to attend public events for Castro, but were forced out into the street to pick up trash and cut grass on Sunday mornings for visiting dignitaries, It seems ironic to me that you would compare what Castro does there to what Shell did. Unlike Castro, Trump didn't force people to attend his rally. Really, Willie, don't you have anything better to complain about?

How about:

1) Warren and Harris both falsely accused a police officer of being a murderer and in the process incited hate and potential violence against police officers nation-wide. Thus far neither has confessed to their slander.

2) The IG report appears to have very damning evidence that the FBI acted in an unjust way toward the Trump campaign.

3) The Journal of the American Medical Association claims that the medicare-for-all scheme proposed by Bernie Sanders and Kamala Harris, along with Elizabeth Warren would put most rural hospitals out of business and cost them an additional 150 billion dollars a year. Why aren't the in-the-tank-for-socialists media talking about this?

These are real problems, not fake accusations with frothy hatred bubbling over.

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#8313 Edited by AbstractRaze (3237 posts) - - Show Bio

@just_sayin: Everything is made up, it are anecdotes, from random Shell workers, they were for sure paid so they get involved in such a fairy tale, nothing was proven so far, Nazis did those sort of things in order to create controversies and slander, the whole article clearly mentions "stories".

As long nothing is on paper/documents with stamps and signatures from the company and their representatives or from any judicial proceeding, nothing can be proven.

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#8314 Edited by Dernman (26462 posts) - - Show Bio

So the Proud Boys outsmarted Antifa into yet again showing their true colors. By no means is it a defense of Proud Boys (don't know much about them) but I hope this helps open peoples eyes to what Antifa and their supporters are.

I hope something gets done about the mayor of Portland for supporting them and letting them do whatever they want.

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#8315 Posted by destinyman75 (15942 posts) - - Show Bio

@dernman: proud boys are weak sheep... Antifa are a bunch of Morons.. In my opinion getting rid of both would be good lol

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#8316 Edited by AbstractRaze (3237 posts) - - Show Bio

As expected it's already starting, usually, conservative people don't tend to go out on the streets and protest for any insignificant issue, unlike the Antifa who feels insulted by anything, as always sensible people, when it comes to key factors, the right-wing comes out.

I can already imagine how the Antifa is feeling, for sure they thought that they rule riots with their numbers, but the conservative side is losing its patience, good news for American freedom.

The more it intensifies, and the more is the conservative side provoked, there will come a day they will come out with guns and game-over.

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#8317 Posted by Lord_Tenebrous (2624 posts) - - Show Bio
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#8318 Edited by Dernman (26462 posts) - - Show Bio

@lord_tenebrous: There was another incident in Portland. (shocker! right?) Lots of people were concerned that there was going to be a major blowout because the Proud Boys were going to show up and Antifa said they were going to confront them.

Anyway PB showed up, walked around a bit and left not long after. Antifa on the other hand stayed around, attacked a bunch of people who were not even involved, attacked a bus that was leaving (might have been the PB bus but not sure) among other bad things they usually do. Kept it up for a long while after they left. PB declared it a victory, saying they accomplished what they set out to do. Which was make Antifa look bad.

Anyway that's what I read from one place. Seeking more sources are always a good idea.

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#8319 Posted by Dernman (26462 posts) - - Show Bio

@destinyman75: I just watched a video I was linked to on twitter. I'm not too sure about the organization that made it as I haven't heard of them before but it seems pretty strait forward. The went around asking dem candidates "if they would denounce violent hate group Antifa". Many of them

  • ignored the question
  • Pretended they didn't know of them
  • some sidestepped naming Antifa but denouncing violate and hate
  • one said she's not denouncing anyone at the moment

Only Tulsi was willing to specifically acknowledge. When asked the question she said that she had denounced them in the past.

So props to Tulsi.

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#8320 Posted by Thekillerklok (10243 posts) - - Show Bio
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instead of posting a video that clearly shows antifa attacking a 10 year old girl lets just post time pool.

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#8321 Edited by Dernman (26462 posts) - - Show Bio
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#8322 Posted by Thekillerklok (10243 posts) - - Show Bio

@dernman: You found the video, If you watch closely you can see one of the antifa try to grab the girl.

I think that's my line, don't threaten children ever, I don't give a damned about the politics.

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#8323 Edited by Dernman (26462 posts) - - Show Bio

@thekillerklok: I just looked further into this. We jumped the gun. It appears her name is Bianca Turano and she's college aged. Damn she looked twelve tho. I was convinced.

If true it's still wrong. You shouldn't go after a girl that small or anyone like that really.

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#8324 Edited by Thekillerklok (10243 posts) - - Show Bio

@dernman: is she actually college aged? I mean I get that some folks just look really young, but wow.

edit: wow I was wrong she is actually college aged.

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#8325 Posted by just_sayin (3888 posts) - - Show Bio

NYT columnist: It's 'a scandal' that media didn't cover Omar and Tlaib Israel trip neo-nazi sponsors

Let's talk double standards in the media. For 2 years the media cried "Russia, Russia, Russia" with regards to Trump. It was a false accusation. Recognizing that that dog won't hunt anymore, the media has now changed tactics and have started the "Racist, Racist, Racist" drumbeat about Trump.

The media have gone to great lengths to accuse Trump of being a racist. They claimed he said that white nationalists were "fine people" when in fact he explicitly stated that he was not talking about them and denounced their behavior. But, the news media instead pushed their agenda, instead of facts.

Recently NYT columnist Bari Weiss made an off-hand comment that the media had been mum on who was sponsoring the trip that representatives Tlaib and Omar were taking to the nation of Israel.

She brought up Tlaib and Omar's canceled trip and then added, "But another huge story, one that has not been covered by any mainstream paper or network is the fact that their trip to Israel, or as they're calling Palestine, was being sponsored by a group that literally published neo-Nazi blood libels and said that it supported female suicide bombers. You know, hailing them as heroes. That's a scandal."

The trip, as Weiss explained, was sponsored by Miftah, an organization that seeks to highlight the Palestinian plight. But, they have also praised female suicide bombers and they regularly promote anti-Semitic doctrines, such as the “blood libel,” which suggests “Jews used the blood of Christians in the Jewish Passover.”

"If someone like Steve King was going to Sweden or Norway and eating with neo-Nazi groups, that would be front page news," Weiss continued.

Just imagine if Trump took a trip at a neo-nazis groups request. Do you think the media would be so silent as it has at the racist and anti-semitic behavior of Democrats Tlaib and Omar?

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#8326 Posted by just_sayin (3888 posts) - - Show Bio
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#8327 Posted by destinyman75 (15942 posts) - - Show Bio

@dernman: Yeah not fond of Antifa..met them in downtown LA on vacation couple years back, they made me late for dinner had to park well away from the venue..lol

Yeah Tulsi is pretty sweet..Honest poised, knows service etc .But another good thing is when she's president she won't waste tax payer dollars on golf.. She'll go surfing for free

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#8328 Posted by destinyman75 (15942 posts) - - Show Bio

@just_sayin: You do realize white nationalist and naxis etc are historicaly even in Europe alt right called the right?? Just mentioned because you seem to believe it's the opposite which isn't true...

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#8329 Posted by just_sayin (3888 posts) - - Show Bio

@just_sayin: You do realize white nationalist and naxis etc are historicaly even in Europe alt right called the right?? Just mentioned because you seem to believe it's the opposite which isn't true...

Nobody wants to be associated with the Nazis. I get that. I am aware of the rebranding by the left to claim that the Nazis - or the National SOCIALIST Party of Germany was not socialist but only had "Socialist" in its title, in its official publications, in its policies, in its creeds like "We are socialists", and in its redistributionist policies and ownership of certain means of production. But other than naming themselves socialists, calling themselves socialists, condemning capitalism, and enacting several socialist policies there is no evidence that they were socialists ;).

The group that Omar and Tlaib conspired with, along with 5 other Democrats in 2016, would not fit on your scale perfectly either in that it is much more driven by anti-semitic and theocratic beliefs.

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#8330 Edited by AbstractRaze (3237 posts) - - Show Bio

Sometimes I think that I can synchronize very well with Trump's thoughts, even 2 weeks ago, I predicted his thoughts and perspective, I just couldn't explain with exactitude on many aspects, but yes, America is going to experience some damage, the entire West too, the rehabilitation is always painful.

"Trump is tying the junkie(American economy) on a rehabilitation hospital's bed so that he doesn't escape in order to consume more heroin(China's economic market)"

Trump: "Someone had to take on China" 20.08.2019

Minute 02:12

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Bad in the short term, is irrelevant, because, the long one, is going to take down the US.

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#8331 Posted by buttersdaman000 (23231 posts) - - Show Bio

It's amazing how Antifas antics rile up some users, as if they're the most menacing, threatening politicized group in America. Yet, when right wing, or white supremacist groups attack they're weirdly silent. I mean only one side has killed in the name of their politics. At most you'll get some "thoughts and prayers" from these people, or some argument minimizing the political nature of the violent attacks on the right, before they move back to the dangers of "Antifa".

It'd be different if these users extended the same energy to violent groups on the right, who again, are much more violent, but they don't :/

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#8332 Edited by Dernman (26462 posts) - - Show Bio

It's amazing how some users try to sidestep the growing threat to terrorist groups like Antifa even though they get shielded by populations and media because it doesn't suit their narrative. Maybe just maybe because they might actually look at themselves and see that part of the problem resides there.

It's amazing that these users who like to complain about "whataboutism" and then do the very same thing when the spotlight is on things closer to home. The hypocrisy is real.

Everyone knows right wing extremist groups are bad. Everyone knows Neo Nazi groups are bad. They get trashed everywhere rightly but the moment you point out groups on the left NOW it's suddenly a problem...... The fact that some have that mentality makes it all the more reason why we NEED to talk about it. These groups are wolves in sheeps clothing and this attitude they have only enables that cloak.

Also lets not down play groups and people like Antifa. They're a growing problem that are only getting more violent and many are only waking up to now because of these cloaks.

We've had attacks twice on ICE. The Ohio pouted left leaning rhetoric. Antifa routinely attacks innocent people, bomb threats, death threats, going after family, threats to burn down theaters and attacks media that tries to report on them. There's brand of rampant racism and anti semitism in these groups.

You complain some users spend to much time on these left groups and not enough on the right groups. That's better than those users who are making those complaints who don't spend any time at all on complaining and try to deflect minimize from it. At least the first group does acknowledge it and has the benefit that the extreme right is widely talked and condemned from both sides. Unlike the extreme left who really isn't, other that groups from the right. These users these users would just love for everyone to ignore it.

But hey I guess It's only bad when one side does these horrible things. Should only be talked about then. :/

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Edit: If guess if some people wanted to use the tactics of those who complain about people shining a light on these groups/people they'd question on why do they go out of the way to throw a blanket on the subject. Perhaps, wonder if they support these groups? Who am I kidding. If it was their tactics they would outright state they were card carrying members.

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#8333 Posted by destinyman75 (15942 posts) - - Show Bio

@just_sayin: Yeah not fond of any of those folks you mentioned...To me the only folks I like are Tulsi or Bernie. The others are a joke

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#8334 Edited by buttersdaman000 (23231 posts) - - Show Bio

@dernman said:

It's amazing how some users try to sidestep the growing threat to terrorist groups like Antifa even though they get shielded by populations and media because it doesn't suit their narrative. Maybe just maybe because they might actually look at themselves and see that part of the problem resides there.

It's amazing that these users who like to complain about "whataboutism" and then do the very same thing when the spotlight is on things closer to home. The hypocrisy is real.

Everyone knows right wing extremist groups are bad. Everyone knows Neo Nazi groups are bad. They get trashed everywhere rightly but the moment you point out groups on the left NOW it's suddenly a problem...... The fact that some have that mentality makes it all the more reason why we NEED to talk about it. These groups are wolves in sheeps clothing and this attitude they have only enables that cloak.

Also lets not down play groups and people like Antifa. They're a growing problem that are only getting more violent and many are only waking up to now because of these cloaks.

We've had attacks twice on ICE. The Ohio pouted left leaning rhetoric. Antifa routinely attacks innocent people, bomb threats, death threats, going after family, threats to burn down theaters and attacks media that tries to report on them. There's brand of rampant racism and anti semitism in these groups.

You complain some users spend to much time on these left groups and not enough on the right groups. That's better than those users who are making those complaints who don't spend any time at all on complaining and try to deflect minimize from it. At least the first group does acknowledge it and has the benefit that the extreme right is widely talked and condemned from both sides. Unlike the extreme left who really isn't, other that groups from the right. These users these users would just love for everyone to ignore it.

But hey I guess It's only bad when one side does these horrible things. Should only be talked about then. :/

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Edit: If guess if some people wanted to use the tactics of those who complain about people shining a light on these groups/people they'd question on why do they go out of the way to throw a blanket on the subject. Perhaps, wonder if they support these groups? Who am I kidding. If it was their tactics they would outright state they were card carrying members.

I'm not sidestepping anything, nor do I see anyone else doing so. You must be referring to users from another site. Antifa sucks. They're violent, and they need to be knocked down a peg. With that said, they still haven't killed anyone. I also don't see the left media protecting them at all. If anything, they just don't get coverage. Why is that? Because all things considered, they aren't that big of a deal. On the other hand, the right media, like Foxnews, puts them on level with violent white supremacist groups going by how they cover them. It's just more partisan fear mongering on their part.

This also isn't whataboutism. I'm not trying to deflect any argument leveled against me by bringing up something you do. I'm just calling out patterns I see. And to be honest, it wasn't even directed at you for the most part, even if it applies. It was others like Mr. anti-muslim and so forth. And those people continuously ignore and downplay the violence of right wing extremists and neo-nazis. One of them even said he'd march with them if they were marching for proper causes, like the environment.

The fact that some have that mentality makes it all the more reason why we NEED to talk about it. These groups are wolves in sheeps clothing and this attitude they have only enables that cloak.

Until one of those wolves jumps out their sheep costume and bites, they don't NEED to be talked about on level with the wolves out here killing people.

The Ohio pouted left leaning rhetoric

Nah, don't even bring this one up in this discussion. That asshole was a democrat, but he didn't kill those people for political or partisan reasons. He was just violent. I have friends who knew him in HS. We were talking about his little hit/rape-list for over a week. There's no motive. As far as we know it had nothing to do with politics, and making it out to be just because his political leaning was revealed is pretty shameful on your part. We can only go by the history of violence this dude already displayed.

You complain some users spend to much time on these left groups and not enough on the right groups. That's better than those users who are making those complaints who don't spend any time at all on complaining and try to deflect minimize from it.

Yes. And it's true. But again, why do I NEED to spend time on Antifa?? They haven't don't anything but threaten and assault people. If it wasn't for their political affiliation you wouldn't bat an eye towards them. However, there's one side literally ramming their cars into people and shooting up churches. Even without political affiliation, that should and would catch anyones attention.

But damn, it's like any other day you'll see some user on here posting news stories about how some Antifa good punched a protestor. Like ok? Then when some white supremacist shoots up a wal-mart those users go silent or try to separate the attack from the politics it was based on. Huge difference.

But hey I guess It's only bad when one side does these horrible things

Yes, only one side is doing horrible things. Unless you think threats and assaults are on level with murders?? Is this some enlightened centrism at work?

If guess if some people wanted to use the tactics of those who complain about people shining a light on these groups/people they'd question on why do they go out of the way to throw a blanket on the subject. Perhaps, wonder if they support these groups? Who am I kidding. If it was their tactics they would outright state they were card carrying members.

Huh?

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#8335 Posted by Lord_Tenebrous (2624 posts) - - Show Bio

The reality is, only one side here consistently condemns the horrid actions of both terror groups, while the other refuses to talk about anything that doesn't insult the opposing party in some way.

There's little to talk about in terms of white supremacist terror. It's widely condemned, it's acknowledged, it's loathed to the highest degree, it's nowhere supported except in the dark recesses of the internet. Both parties and sides repeatedly, consistently, and overwhelmingly condemn it. Wheh it lashes out, we all talk about it.

When white supremacy happens, we all talk about it. When Antifa happens, only one group of us talk about it.

Bottom line: when something terrible happens, we are going to talk about it here, regardless of whose perceived side it was on.

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#8336 Edited by Dernman (26462 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000:

I'm not sidestepping anything, nor do I see anyone else doing so. You must be referring to users from another site.

I was talking in general but then there is no need to criticize someone criticizing bad people doing bad things if you weren't.

Antifa sucks. They're violent, and they need to be knocked down a peg. With that said, they still haven't killed anyone. I also don't see the left media protecting them at all. If anything, they just don't get coverage.

See right there. It's the violence Olympics now? You can only talk about them if they kill someone?How long before that happens. Might be soon considering how they're amping it up the past couple of years. Bike locks to the head. Kicking someone into traffic, throwing quick dry cement that can burn the skin. Attacking old people. You know old people can die if hit too hard.

Dude off the top of my head CNN defends Antifa because they made the "it's not bad tactics only bad targets argument. Hell even after Andy Ngo was attacked many in the media attacked or blamed him instead. Hell just look when they're not on air and their social media posts. Then you really see that shit. They not always so blatant but they find someways to minimize it or make the person they went after into monsters. If not that they refuse to talk about it.

Why is that? Because all things considered, they aren't that big of a deal. On the other hand, the right media, like Foxnews, puts them on level with violent white supremacist groups going by how they cover them. It's just more partisan fear mongering on their part.

See now you're doing it. Not a big deal bullshit. No no they're just a

  • growing problem
  • international, from what I hear they're even worse outside
  • listed as a terrorist group
  • getting more violent
  • bomb and other death threats
  • spreading extremist views
  • People. media keep making excuses or trying to minimize what they are.

Ya not a big deal.

Being a better recruiter for far right extremism than far right extremist group, the best recruiter for the extreme right is the extreme left. In the 90's far right groups were at an all time low. Then the far left started making noise and action and made them relevant again.

Far left SHOULD be right up there. Antifa is just the face of it right now because they're making the most noise. That's not partisan fear mongering.

This also isn't whataboutism. I'm not trying to deflect any argument leveled against me by bringing up something you do

YES it is because what I was doing was pointing out and criticizing bad people for doing bad things. Then you whatabouted me with the far right. Criticizing me for spending time there and how I choose to deal with both there instead of on groups you see as worse. That's a whataboutism.

. I'm just calling out patterns I see.

So am I. A pattern of bias, and hypocrisy. When do you ever criticize there far left here or defend the right like you do in reverse.

And to be honest, it wasn't even directed at you for the most part.

No but you just said it was about MY actions.

This also isn't whataboutism. I'm not trying to deflect any argument leveled against me by bringing up something you do

See.

It was others like Mr. anti-muslim and so forth. And those people continuously ignore and downplay the violence of right wing extremists and neo-nazis.

Neo-nazi ism is a shrinking group. Muslim extremism is on the rise. They have control of countries. What neo-nazi group do you know can say the same?

One of them even said he'd march with them if they were marching for proper causes, like the environment.

And? I'm not a marcher so it's not a choice I'd have to make but if they kept it non violent and weren't spouting racist shit I can see people not caring. I'd hope they'd give them the finger and blast them for their racist views. Same goes for the far left.

Personally if I was a marcher I don't think I could do it. I'd do it elsewhere but I'm not going to change my stance that dumping toxic waste is bad and work against it just because bad people are doing the same..

I mean if you were marching at Lake Michigan because they were going to dump toxic waste there and you find out Neo Nazi were doing the same would you change you position? More people stand against something bad the more chance we have to stop it. It's not a back and white issue though it sounds like it.

Now having said that. I can see how easy it is to paint them both with the same brush if you see them marching together if you don't know the person. I might do that myself but I'm not perfect. Heck maybe if you do know them. I'd be all like couldn't you have marched somewhere else?

Until one of those wolves jumps out their sheep costume and bites, they don't NEED to be talked about on level with the wolves out here killing people.

But the are biting though. What don't you get? Putting people in hospitals, giving brain hemorrhages, splitting heads open, putting flesh burning. Holding terrorist camps in mexico to fight border control. Buying guns from mexican cartels. That's just the face of Antifa.

Nah, don't even bring this one up in this discussion. That asshole was a democrat, but he didn't kill those people for political or partisan reasons. He was just violent. I have friends who knew him in HS. We were talking about his little hit/rape-list for over a week. There's no motive. As far as we know it had nothing to do with politics, and making it out to be just because his political leaning was revealed is pretty shameful on your part. We can only go by the history of violence this dude already displayed.

More hypocrisy. I was hoping you'd use this common argument I've been seeing so I could make this point. You'd many others would be singing a different tune if he was from the right. How many shooters spitting out far right rhetoric, like he did the left rhetoric, have you said the same thing about as you're now? How many of these far right people shot those that had nothing to do with or aligned against their rhetoric? How many were driven by forces beyond political belief? That were just violent people? You should be ashamed of yourself.

Yes. And it's true. But again, why do I NEED to spend time on Antifa??

You don't feel any need at all to call out bad people for doing bad things but you're perfectly fine with rightly criticizing people who do because they don't do it enough to others?

Yeah that makes sense. Do you listen to yourself?

They haven't don't anything but threaten and assault people.

lol those saints. perfect angles. I'm sure all those people from the Rainbow who only threatened and assaulted by groups who only did those things should be ok with it now.

I should have read your reply fully before I started to respond so I didn't have to wast my time. I don't know why I kept giving you more credit than you deserve in the past. I wont from now on. You've put the last straw on the camels back. You're too indoctrinated by extreme biased partisan propaganda. I'd rather have discussions with more rational people. so if it's political please don't reply to me in the future. I won't read and wont engage other than to say stop replying to me. I'll consider it you trying to bother me.

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#8337 Edited by Dernman (26462 posts) - - Show Bio

@lord_tenebrous said:

The reality is, only one side here consistently condemns the horrid actions of both terror groups, while the other refuses to talk about anything that doesn't insult the opposing party in some way.

There's little to talk about in terms of white supremacist terror. It's widely condemned, it's acknowledged, it's loathed to the highest degree, it's nowhere supported except in the dark recesses of the internet. Both parties and sides repeatedly, consistently, and overwhelmingly condemn it. Wheh it lashes out, we all talk about it.

When white supremacy happens, we all talk about it. When Antifa happens, only one group of us talk about it.

Bottom line: when something terrible happens, we are going to talk about it here, regardless of whose perceived side it was on.

Mostly the point I was trying to make.

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#8338 Posted by Lord_Tenebrous (2624 posts) - - Show Bio
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#8339 Edited by buttersdaman000 (23231 posts) - - Show Bio
@lord_tenebrous said:

The reality is, only one side here consistently condemns the horrid actions of both terror groups, while the other refuses to talk about anything that doesn't insult the opposing party in some way.

There's little to talk about in terms of white supremacist terror. It's widely condemned, it's acknowledged, it's loathed to the highest degree, it's nowhere supported except in the dark recesses of the internet. Both parties and sides repeatedly, consistently, and overwhelmingly condemn it. Wheh it lashes out, we all talk about it.

When white supremacy happens, we all talk about it. When Antifa happens, only one group of us talk about it.

Bottom line: when something terrible happens, we are going to talk about it here, regardless of whose perceived side it was on.

You're also the one who said the charlottesville nazi/white supremacist marches were exaggerated, and that you'd march with them, "not for anything racist", but if they were marching for proper causes like anti-littering.

So....

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#8340 Edited by buttersdaman000 (23231 posts) - - Show Bio

@dernman:

Eh, whatever. That's a lot. Agree to disagree. Lets just hope a right wing racist doesn't murder anyone else. And Antifa doesn't punch anyone else.

But, this,

More hypocrisy. I was hoping you'd use this common argument I've been seeing so I could make this point. You'd many others would be singing a different tune if he was from the right. How many shooters spitting out far right rhetoric, like he did the left rhetoric, have you said the same thing about as you're now? How many of these far right people shot those that had nothing to do with or aligned against their rhetoric? How many were driven by forces beyond political belief? That were just violent people? You should be ashamed of yourself.

He didn't spit out any left wing rhetoric except what he talked about on twitter which was completely unrelated to the shooting. Stop politicizing these deaths. If he was right wing but kept his politics to twitter, I wouldn't try to force the deaths to be political. This would be especially true if he left no motive, like the Dayton shooter, and had a history of violence, like the Dayton shooter. I didn't know anybody directly, but a lot of my friends had people who died/were injured in that shooting. The guy was just a violent asshole. He had a hit list and a rape list in HS, which apparently some of my old friends were on as well if the rumors are true. This isn't some stupid partisan argument on my part like it obviously is to you since you were just "hoping" I would fall into your "trap". If the dude left a manifesto like most right wing shooters, or some type of motive, I wouldn't care what side he supported. But he didn't. I don't think it's right to take seemingly unrelated details about his life, and try to force it as a motive. If the police found some evidence of left wing political motive, it wouldn't make a difference to me because too many of my friends are already affected by it, so who gives a fuck?? I definitely wouldn't try to deflect to win some dumb argument against some random user on Comicvine. It wouldn't change the attack on a place I used to frequent one bit. So again, you should be ashamed of yourself. Damn man.

Like honestly, link me to an actual motive beyond his unrelated (as far as we know) social media post. I was checking fox,CNN, all that for days just waiting for something to be revealed. Maybe I missed something?

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#8341 Posted by Lord_Tenebrous (2624 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000:

"You're also the one who said the charlottesville nazi/white supremacist marches were exaggerated,"

... In that while the vast majority of attendees were vile racists, as were the organizers of the official march, there were in fact many non-racist people there prior and then during who were genuinely protesting the removal of that statue, including people I personally know. This doesn't make the primary march or its primary participants any less abhorrent in character.

"and that you'd march with them, not for anything racist, but if they were marching for proper causes like anti-littering."

And? I'll march for a cause I believe to be right, regardless of whether some despicable people happen to share those beliefs. A broken clock is right once a day. The El Paso shooter was a staunch environmentalist, even listing it in his accursed manifesto. I assume you are against the destruction of our environment. Are you now going to denounce and disown that position because some deranged maniac happened to endorse it?

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#8342 Posted by just_sayin (3888 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000: I think @lord_tenebrous makes a valid point in that conservative politicians have repeatedly condemned actions by white nationalists while not a single Democrat Party candidate was willing to condemn Antifa even when confronted with video showing them hurling concrete pieces at people and throwing concrete slushies at reporters. How can Democrats claim that Republicans are in bed with white nationalists while Republicans are condemning the actions of white nationalists, but Democrats can get a pass from the media on their refusal to condemn Antifia, when Antifa initiates violence against people?

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#8343 Posted by buttersdaman000 (23231 posts) - - Show Bio

@lord_tenebrous:

I love how easily you can look "past" their violent racism and march hand in hand with them for good causes. Carry on.

@buttersdaman000: I think @lord_tenebrous makes a valid point in that conservative politicians have repeatedly condemned actions by white nationalists while not a single Democrat Party candidate was willing to condemn Antifa even when confronted with video showing them hurling concrete pieces at people and throwing concrete slushies at reporters. How can Democrats claim that Republicans are in bed with white nationalists while Republicans are condemning the actions of white nationalists, but Democrats can get a pass from the media on their refusal to condemn Antifia, when Antifa initiates violence against people?

I wasn't talking about politicians. I was talking about users on this site.

But I think the same logic applies on a larger scale. Politicians aren't arguing about this stuff on a comicbook site against other people who don't have a clue what they're talking about relatively speaking. Antifa is violent, but in the scheme of things other organized groups draw much more attention. Imagine a city was completely flooded, and all the politicians are addressing it, but y'all want them to address the heavy rain occurring in another city?? And since they don't address it y'all argue they're in bed with them. Should they condemn Antifa? Yes. Am I going to harp on it as if they're comparable to right wing violence? Nope.

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#8344 Edited by silent_bomber (4953 posts) - - Show Bio

What's the state of Sugar in soft drinks in the US these days?

Here in Britain, due to the Sugar Tax legislation that was passed last year virtually all soft drinks have had their sugar replaced with sweeteners here now, seriously, everything tastes worse than it used to (RIP Ribena).

I think Coke and Pepsi were some of the only brands that stood their ground and decided to increase prices instead of cut sugar.

Are brands moving over to sweeteners in the US too?

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#8345 Posted by just_sayin (3888 posts) - - Show Bio

What's the state of Sugar in soft drinks in the US these days?

Here in Britain, due to the Sugar Tax legislation that was passed last year virtually all soft drinks have had their sugar replaced with sweeteners here now, seriously, everything tastes worse than it used to (RIP Ribena).

I think Coke and Pepsi were some of the only brands that stood their ground and decided to increase prices instead of cut sugar.

Are brands moving over to sweeteners in the US too?

One of the 1619 articles in the NYT recently linked the use of sugar today to support for slavery (I kid you not). That should tell you.

The opening line is:

The sugar that saturates the American diet has a barbaric history as the 'white gold' that fueled slavery.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/08/14/magazine/sugar-slave-trade-slavery.html

Sugar is white, therefore it is racist.

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#8346 Edited by just_sayin (3888 posts) - - Show Bio
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#8347 Posted by Dernman (26462 posts) - - Show Bio
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#8348 Edited by Dernman (26462 posts) - - Show Bio

@just_sayin said:

Joe Biden is claiming that he was once a coal miner. So, OK which one do you think is Joe?

No Caption Provided

I'm calling BS. Seriously, would you let Joe play with sharp tools and dynamite? I don't think so.

Why does Joe feel the need to lie about being a coal miner? Do you think he feels guilty for what he and Obama did to all those coal miner families?

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/tucker-carlson-biden-democrats-presidential-race-lies

Heigh Joe, Hiegh Joe, It’s off to work he go.

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#8349 Posted by buttersdaman000 (23231 posts) - - Show Bio

Trump implied he's aiming to get rid of birthright citizenship, so I guess that's bye bye Barron lmao

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#8350 Edited by silent_bomber (4953 posts) - - Show Bio

@just_sayin: Heh, probably just trying to prime Americans to start to cut down on Sugar.

I doubt it'll go anywhere, as far as I can see whenever any social legislation is proposed in the US half the population just effectively shout "F you I won't do what you tell me" regardless, lol

Which tbh probably isn't such a bad thing.

---------

Apparently our new Prime Minister has talked about getting rid of the Sugar Tax and reeling back the nanny state in general, but its still too early to see whether he will follow through with anything he's promised.