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just_sayin

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@just_sayin: I believe the racist charge is fabricated by the media. Take for instance in Charlottesville. His comments about good people on both sides was about those in favor of removing statues of old dead Democrats and those who thought they had historical value. The media turned that into saying he was saying white nationalists where good people. That was not what he said or meant. Rather than have policy discussions with this president the left is into calling people racists and nazis.

The 2017 “Unite the Right” rally was organized by and intended for white supremacists and white nationalists, maybe you and the president can see good people that are white supremacits, but that's the problem. There are no good white supremacists if they hate other people because of the color of their skin.

I do not support white nationalists - remember, unlike most lefties, I believe ALL black lives matter. I don't believe we should discriminate against people due to their ethnicity, unlike most lefties, who support racist policies like reverse discrimination and policies that discriminate against Asian students in college admissions. The comments by Trump where about confederate statutes and their respective supporters or detractors. For the record, I'm for getting rid of all statues of Democrats - past or present.

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BLACK3STPANTH3R

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@just_sayin: But you and the President said that "white nationalists are good people".

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BLACK3STPANTH3R

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@just_sayin: For the record, I'm for getting rid of all statues of Democrats - past or present.

No, no , no don't try to pivot now, you are lying through your teeth. You supported Charlotesville, and you supported the confederate statues. We have talked about this at length and each time until now, you said that you support keeping the statues, you never said anything about getting rid of them. I could try digging up some old posts, but I think that old thread was shut down.

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just_sayin

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@just_sayin: But you and the President said that "white nationalists are good people".

No, efe. Trump was talking about people who wanted to not destroy confederate statutes.

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just_sayin

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#8105  Edited By just_sayin

@black3stpanth3r said:

@just_sayin: For the record, I'm for getting rid of all statues of Democrats - past or present.

No, no , no don't try to pivot now, you are lying through your teeth. You supported Charlotesville, and you supported the confederate statues. We have talked about this at length and each time until now, you said that you support keeping the statues, you never said anything about getting rid of them. I could try digging up some old posts, but I think that old thread was shut down.

They say memory is the second thing to go when you get old, Papa Pitufo. I have always favored getting rid of statutes of old Democrats (go back and look at the old posts), but I don't think that people who want to preserve them are racist for wanting to keep them.

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BLACK3STPANTH3R

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@just_sayin:

They say memory is the second thing to go when you get old, Papa Pitufo. I have always favored getting rid of statutes of old Democrats (go back and look at the old posts), but I don't think that people who want to preserve them are racist for wanting to keep them.

The people at the Unite the Right , were white supremacists, which is obviously wrong, all you have to do is look at the lead up to the event, how they were advertising it, the organizer was a white supremacist, they even said "Jews will not replace us" , those people were Klan's Men, and Nazi's.

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Iron_Tiger

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#8107  Edited By Iron_Tiger

Removing a city-placed statue without city approval should be a crime. Oh wait...

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BLACK3STPANTH3R

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@iron_tiger:

Removing a city-placed statue without city approval should be a crime. Oh wait...

Except that the city voted to remove it... oh wait.... and there was a crime committed there by a white supremacist that killed a young woman, and seriously injured many others, and he is going to spend 415 years in jail oh wait... you were saying?

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just_sayin

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#8109  Edited By just_sayin
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just_sayin

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BLACK3STPANTH3R

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@just_sayin: They should have started cleaning out the rats in the Trump Hotels, or Trump Jr's properties.

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Iron_Tiger

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#8112  Edited By Iron_Tiger

@black3stpanth3r: I was saying that removing a city-placed statue without permission should be a crime, which it is and has happened before. Stop twisting shit and acting childishly.

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BLACK3STPANTH3R

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@just_sayin: Seriously when is the President going to call for unity, when is he going to bring us together for once? When is he going to stop demonizing so many Americans? Does this man ever take the high road? Even today when he visited Dayton and El Paso, he couldn't help but take swipes at people there, nobody wants him in their neck of the woods, nobody wanted him at George Bush's Funeral , nobody wanted him in Pittsburgh, or at Parkland but of course he forced his way there. He doesn't get that his rhetoric isn't helpful, and frankly I don't think you get it either. If he has these big economic goals, and wants to do great things for the country, he can do it without the insults and demonizing of whole groups of people.

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Dernman

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#8114  Edited By Dernman
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BLACK3STPANTH3R

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@iron_tiger: They did have permission to remove it, they voted on it and they voted to remove it. I'm talking about Charlottesville , those people that came to that Klan rally weren't even from that community, they were just racist interlopers.

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Dernman

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https://i.redd.it/fhxnk2yfwue31.jpg

What a dumbass thing to say.

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BLACK3STPANTH3R

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Blaming video games is just stupid in general, every country has video games, blaming mental health is stupid as well, I guess they must think we have a monopoly on mental health issues in the world. The problem is obvious and staring us right in the face.

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OswaldCobblepot

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Every day leftists keep losing. they're so desperate they're even going back to the tired old "racism" bs, which is a meaningless trigger-word designed to psychologically manipulate certain people. it's a joy to behold the self-destruction of the left.

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#8119 SC  Moderator

Every day leftists keep losing. they're so desperate they're even going back to the tired old "racism" bs, which is a meaningless trigger-word designed to psychologically manipulate certain people. it's a joy to behold the self-destruction of the left.

Indeed, just like the Darwinists who prattle incessantly about natural selection, and immorality, they are so desperate to cloud the minds of society with their poisons that demand the weak die. They don't even realise the irony in their clueless obsession with evolution, because if we were to indulge them, they would be the ones who would be killed off, because they are so weak of mind, body and flesh. Its an appropriately orgasmic delight to witness their self implosion.

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#8120 SC  Moderator

Blaming video games is just stupid in general, every country has video games, blaming mental health is stupid as well, I guess they must think we have a monopoly on mental health issues in the world. The problem is obvious and staring us right in the face.

I do agree with your sentiment, but I would also say Americas gun problem isn't really that obvious. Its complicated. There are a lot of unique variables that affect the USA (larger population than most, how states work, the geographical size of the country and population spread) as well as general variables common across countries as well (how humans interact with each other, attitudes and behaviour towards working towards a common goal and solution versus working towards a goal or solution for one group) - because solely blaming video games is silly, and solely blaming mental health is silly, and I would even say solely blaming guns is silly too... but why are people trying to look for a sole and simple reason or motivating factor to a problem? Except thats really common, I enter discussions on such topics and I see some posts talking in terms of this is the problem except... when they are on the defensive, then views get slightly more nuanced.

This thread can be seen as a microcosm. For the most effective and efficient solution to America's gun problem, you need a lot of people in power and authority to work together. The cause you'd assume is pretty noble... less people dying, but its actually really complicated and thus difficult to get that level of cooperation. I think if I make the promise, that if everyone who posted in this thread for the last 20 pages, all came together and worked out their differences and worked towards sharing a similar political stance and view and if that could be done in 2 months I'd give you all 100k... I don't actually think it would happen. (I am not making this promise though) I mean money isn't a noble goal necessarily, but its a significant incentive, its just that a lot of people really don't like the idea of being wrong, or ceding ground, or compromise, or admitting to fault or failure. Then in politics? A lot of that is tied into money, power and authority. Theirs even less incentive for cooperation and that... thats a significant problem as far as solving issues like gun violence.

In my country a few years back, gay marriage was made legal, and a significant amount of politicians who are right leaning were important in that process. I imagine similar happens in various US states (but not others) - in contrast, well, why is Trump going after video games when a not insignificant part of his fanbase are gamers? Well if I had to make a guess, its because he/his administration cares more about the NRA and his gun loyalist support base, and probably assume nothing will actually be done to video games that would actually piss off his fanbase in regards to him, since they'll probably meme about it or ignore it or somehow find a way to blame the liberal SJW BBQ NPC WTF WTF crowd. So temporary deflection, and then rely on short memories. A lot of people/voters don't punish that though, they often reward that, because winning is more important than other random peoples lives.

That being said, guns is a really big factor (naturally) but yeah US political climate (in regards to leaders and people) isn't really in a healthy state either.

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BLACK3STPANTH3R

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@sc: Yeah I agree with some of what you said, but I do think there are some things we can improve on right now like improved background checks for example that would make a difference.

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FaradaySloth

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#8123 SC  Moderator

@sc: Yeah I agree with some of what you said, but I do think there are some things we can improve on right now like improved background checks for example that would make a difference.

I definitely agree with that too. Plus certain types of guns that aren't so much guns but like the gear that Punisher would grab to take on like a whole gang by himself... and yeah.

I just think some well intentioned people, they get confused, because they hear some people say the problem is "guns" and they think... "just guns? I've grown up around guns, my family has had guns, we hunt, we defend ourselves, we are good people and we would never hurt someone with guns" and then they wonder... "well what about mental health? What about peoples individual ethics and morals?" and even if I think they are wrong they think "what about violent video games and violent movies that glorify gun violence?" because they assume that the people shouting guns, think that guns can be magically removed which isn't realistic or that guns will be removed... from good gun owners who follow the law, but not from bad gun owners who don't care, which creates a bigger problem... but that assumption is incorrect.

Except clarity often requires a willingness to actually listen and communicate with people who might not agree with you, and to articulate how you feel and think without resorting to attacks or strawman arguments. Again, a common oddity about this thread, is I often see users telling other users what they think and what their arguments are... "well of course you would think that, you lefty, you support this one liberal governor who loves to eat black babies, you probably want to take away and eat all the guns too" and its an internet forum. Its actually really easy to seek clarification, posters just need to ask sincere questions more. "Oh hey, what did you mean by this? Okay I disagree, because I think this instead? Do you disagree and why? Oh okay, I misunderstood what you meant, but maybe..." I mean it does happen with some users, and thats great, I think this thread is healthier when people actually try to talk instead of just argue.

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#8124  Edited By SC  Moderator

@faradaysloth said:
@dernman said:

Found this.

Your opinions on the accuracy of the photo................

https://i.redd.it/yw6i6jgufne31.jpg

Larger version in link.

This definitely doesn't fit the narrative, delet this.

Just in case I am out of the loop, what is the narrative thats being spun that this doesn't fit? Also what is this image trying to clarify or point out? I can make some assumptions based on some of the opinions/rhetoric I've heard recently ("all these mass shooters have been white? Why?") but I might be missing something.

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Lil_Remains

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@lil_remains: Yo mains! Are we gonna talk about Antifa's first mass murderer or what?

Dayton shooter Connor Betts may be antifa’s first mass killer

What’s to talk about? The Dayton shooting was not politically motivated as far as we know. As a result is not a terrormist attack.

You wanna talk about over 80% of domestic terroism being commited by the Far right/white supremacists? Also, nice source. “Red state” lol

Plus, what is “mains“ and why are you calling me that?

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Dernman

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@sc said:
@faradaysloth said:
@dernman said:

Found this.

Your opinions on the accuracy of the photo................

https://i.redd.it/yw6i6jgufne31.jpg

Larger version in link.

This definitely doesn't fit the narrative, delet this.

Just in case I am out of the loop, what is the narrative thats being spun that this doesn't fit? Also what is this image trying to clarify or point out? I can make some assumptions based on some of the opinions/rhetoric I've heard recently ("all these mass shooters have been white? Why?") but I might be missing something.

I can't speak for faraday but from where I found it, yes it was in opposition to certain media that try to portray it's always being white men. I wanted people opinions on if this was legit, sincere but badly researched, lies or just plain counter rhetoric. As it said in the pic that it was personal research.

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Dernman

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#8127  Edited By Dernman

So a female black actress quit the show claiming sexual and racial harassment by a fellow actor. Of course in my head I'm thinking some white dude is the suspect again. Imagine my surprise when it came out it was a black man. The only thing that would have made it more surprising is if it was also a woman.

I wonder how he racially harassed her. Assuming it's true that is.

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Noone1996

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#8128  Edited By Noone1996

Saying that video games are the reason mass shootings happen is just as silly as blaming the guns which are used DEFENSIVELY in the United States far more often than offensively in mass shootings (which only make up 1% of homicides). As for the Ohio shooter, you guys know he was an extreme far leftist, right? I guess in his case we blame the gun, but in the Texas shooter case we solely blame white supremacy and Trump? No need to look at individual cases of lunatics.

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Lord_Tenebrous

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#8130 SC  Moderator

@dernman said:

I can't speak for faraday but from where I found it, yes it was in opposition to certain media that try to portray it's always being white men. I wanted people opinions on if this was legit, sincere but badly researched, lies or just plain counter rhetoric. As it said in the pic that it was personal research.

Ah okay, so I have seen that sentiment floating around a few places too. Its "always these white guys killing everyone in mass shootings" etc. Not places I would say are the most credible for objective, legitimate info, and I have been a little bit critical towards such sentiment because I think it oversimplifies such issues. That being said, I do think I understand where some of this sentiment is coming from (even if I think its misguided), so if I had to articulate an argument for that sentiment from some of those sources, is that this topic does already have a highly charged racial component. Racism is a really complicated subject and because of that, it can lead to a lot of miscommunication and tense accusations, excuses, insincere arguments, frustrating, suspicion and dissatisfaction and apathy.

In my personal experience I have seen first hand racist attitudes and behaviour from white people to non white people, but... also non white people to white people... but also non white people to non white people and white people to white people. Plus people of different mixes to insert any of above and vice versa. So I generally am skeptical when people try and turn issues into "this minority would never behave like those white people" because I know, and most of us know, examples of someone in a minority displaying the same behaviour and attitudes (good or bad) as those in a majority (in this case white people) - but thats when generalisations come into play... if someone makes a joke about how the NBA is really just a bunch of tall black guys throwing a ball into a hoop... I know thats not technically accurate, there are a bunch of different ethnicities in the NBA and some people who are average or smaller (I think? There use to be in the past, I read the current shortest NBA player is 5'9" but I am not sure how accurate that is) but also important its a joke, its not meant to be taken too seriously.

If we look at the most high profile, publicised mass shootings of the last few years, weren't most of them white? (Hence the sentiment expressed I mentioned about seeing where it comes from) So we can say... well yeah, but thats the fault of the media for making those ones the high profile and publicised mass shootings, because the actual amount of mass shootings is much higher and a lot of the shooters in those aren't white... well okay, so why? Is it the liberal agenda? Double standards? Is it a matter of definitions? Since under some definitions of mass shooting, gang killings don't count, neither does domestic violence, and there are other variables including how many people are actually shot. With the image you posted, I don't know what criteria or definition the person who created the image is using? It could be accurate, I generally assume good faith in such matters, so it probably is, just its divorced from context. I also assume that when people express the sentiment that "its only white people who are committing these mass shootings" they are generally talking about the incidents with over ten people + killed (one list on wikipedia has this as a qualifier), in public, where the killer had little to no specific personal vendetta against each victim. As opposed to incidents where there are 4 + victims, and or the killer knew each victim personally and personal grudges were involved, or multiple people with guns were involved (gun on gun violence) etc but including those as mass shootings could be accurate to say and maybe thats a criteria the above image is using? (they are casting a broader net) well, what about 3 + victims? So on.

The... other angle to consider, is that 2019 El Paso shooting, race and guns both are involved. Like I said above, both can be complicated issues. Issues that get emotions and opinions heated and like I said before this can lead to a bunch of different behaviours and arguments. For some people... this can mean a suspicion or skepticism that some other people are trying to mislead, manipulate, and generally deceive people so they try and fight back with the truth, and actual facts and data... but then the tricky part comes when we actually have to verify and confirm what is actually true, but that can actually take a lot of effort and not all people are as good as interpreting data and establishing the truth. Plus a lot of people don't like losing and a lot of people think they win by default if they can just prove the people they disagree with are the liars, manipulators and so on. Sometimes the actual value also isn't in finding the "truth", but understanding context and using that to figure out solutions to problems.

When I first saw your image, I didn't really know what to make of it, from personal experience, most people I interact with, severely overestimate their ability to be logical and reasonable, severely underestimate how much they run on emotions and ego, are really bad at establishing context, and hate the feeling of being wrong and losing in life, in arguments in general, so much so they have developed coping mechanisms to avoid that no matter what including the cost of their own wellbeing and growth. So 'personal research' was a big red flag, but it seems (emphasis on seems, I don't have time to look at every incident) accurate - based on its criteria and quick googling, but its criteria which is a bit vague and doesn't match up with some other criteria/definitions I have looked up. Also I would have preferred it if it wasn't an image and was a blog or something with links and references, so people can find it easier to affirm, criticise etc discuss. "local news articles" also charged vs actual arrests? Its... but if its goal is to say reject the notion that all gun violence is America is only committed by white people? Then its super accurate. If its to reject that all mass shootings are committed by white people? I would say its pretty accurate, but depending on the criteria/definition, but I think 4 plus victims is decent enough... if its to reject the notion that in Americas recent history, mass shooters have been predominantly white? Depending on the definition it starts to get a little bit iffy. Can still be accurate but the conversation about why and how gets more nuanced and needs more explanation/definitions. If its to reject the idea that white nationalism doesn't contribute to the mindset of a potential mass shooter...

So the problem with such images, is that going back to what I said about race being tricky and complicated, for all I know, the person who made this, might be a Trump supporter who loves guns and hates liberals and "PC culture run amok" and they see some media sentiment that "all these mass shooters are white and Trump supporters and gun nuts" and then they don't look for the nuance I talked about (either unintentionally or intentionally, because if the media is going to oversimplify the issues and arguments why should they care about facts and truth?) and then they create such imagery to shift the conversation away from issues they are defensive about, to trying to cast light on "how hypocritical" the media is and how they attempt to deceive and manipulate the American people. Or they could be a Jamaican liberal living in Japan who hates guns, and realised the media over exaggerates the ethnicity/race of mass shooters being white, because of bad criteria, when in fact looking at more examples, its much spread out. The lack of data means both could be possible, and whilst intent can't necessarily change facts it can colour and distort context which can affect how people perceive the truth.

Its a 'tactic' that a lot of people use, either intentionally or unintentionally, because like I said, people generally don't like losing so often deflect. Then again, people will also accuse others of deflecting as well to deflect, and that makes good sincere conversations difficult because both parties start to treat each other with suspicion. Its why I think its important to try and find common ground when you can find it - you won't find it with everyone - but if people want to try and unite to stop gun violence, its something we have to try and learn.

Sorry I know you don't like big walls of text!

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mimisalome

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I blame the culture of nihilism, alienation, and hopelessness for all the senseless acts of violence (guns et al).

Something that can be attributed to:

- the lack of "greater purpose" (like the lack of intrapersonal and interpersonal identity),

- losing the capacity for personal satisfaction and contentment (like in addiction and depression).

- high stress/high pressure social environment (eg: probably an attributes associated with multiculturalism and highly competitive socio-economic environment)

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#8132 SC  Moderator

Saying that video games are the reason mass shootings happen is just as silly as blaming the guns which are used DEFENSIVELY in the United States far more often than offensively in mass shootings (which only make up 1% of homicides). As for the Ohio shooter, you guys know he was an extreme far leftist, right? I guess in his case we blame the gun, but in the Texas shooter case we solely blame white supremacy and Trump? No need to look at individual cases of lunatics.

Alternatively we could also look at an individual, and their internal processes. So their psychology, world views, political views, ideals, and emotional, physical and mental health and well being, and see how and where something went wrong, acknowledge it, and attempt to assign responsibility to where in society, as a collective, as groups, and individuals we can do better and it can do better by us, and... we could also look at external environments and factors. So an individuals access to guns or dangerous objects, access to support networks, external pressures that negatively influence them internally or the minimisation of sources which exist to help deal with such pressures/negative influences and feelings and acknowledge them and look at ways to improve... and then we could look at certain entity's/ideas, concepts... the media, ideologies like white supremacy and figures of authority and power and what actions, behaviour and ideas they promote and exhibit and acknowledge how that interacts, and influences and so what responsibilities it can bare.

So less about randomly and blindly assigning blame and bickering over supposed sole causes, or pretending that everything is in a vacuum and that people by default are complicated creatures that are effected by their environment and external stimuli in ways they themselves can't grasp or understand until they grow older, experience life and in some contexts are actually educated and trained to understand. That could work too.

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#8133 SC  Moderator

I blame the culture of nihilism, alienation, and hopelessness for all the senseless acts of violence (guns et al).

Something that can be attributed to:

- the lack of "greater purpose" (like the lack of intrapersonal and interpersonal identity),

- losing the capacity for personal satisfaction and contentment (like in addiction and depression).

- high stress/high pressure social environment (eg: probably an attributes associated with multiculturalism and highly competitive socio-economic environment)

Nice! Even though I think you and I would disagree about some of the specifics and details, I think you raise some excellent points/starter points.

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Thekillerklok

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@mimisalome: are you trying to suggest that the problem is more complicated then young innocent youths being corrupted to white supremacy by the hacker that is known as 8 chan?

Don't you know about how he desensitizes children through actual virtual guns in minecraft?

what is this blasphemy and wrongthink, clearly the problem will go away by simply purging his little website off the internet.

the media has collectively told us what to think, why can't we just think that? huh?

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just_sayin

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@dernman said:

Found this.

Your opinions on the accuracy of the photo................

https://i.redd.it/yw6i6jgufne31.jpg

Larger version in link.

The image you posted helps show the broader problem. The definition used by the meme creator was four or more persons shot in a single event. That definition will include more gang related deaths because it includes shootings in personal dwellings and those that are gang related. According to the FBI definition there have been 6 incidents this year. To qualify under the FBI's definition - a perpetrator shoots dead three or more people (not including the perpetrator) in a single incident in a public place, which is unrelated to terrorism, gangs, and doesn’t take place in the course of some other criminal activity (like a robbery or fight). That's why mass shooter events generally involve more white perpetrators - gang, terrorist, mob and criminal shootings are excluded.

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Noone1996

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@sc: Yeah I agree that we should look at multiple factors and those are definitely ones that are actually important to look at. Assigning sole blame is not productive.

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SupremeGeneration

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Thoughts?

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kalkent

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"I won't scream at you."

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just_sayin

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Thoughts?

I think it is symptomatic of the state of politics - it is easier to label the other side than talk about why you have the view you have.

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Dernman

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#8140  Edited By Dernman

@sc: yeah I don't think the intent of the research was focused on the reasoning behind the shooting but to check on who's doing them.

I believe it's a very common to believe, at least in America that it's white people that are doing this with few exceptions because that's how it's been framed since as long as I remember.,

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just_sayin

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@black3stpanth3r: Hey buddy! As someone who wants to take away law-abiding gun owners guns, I know that you get frustrated at Congress' inaction on gun control. So I was thinking of a compromise. Today marks 6 months since the Born Alive Act was first submitted to Congress for a vote. Over 80 times in that 6 months, Nancy Pelosi has refused to allow it to come up for a vote. The Born Alive bill would make it the law that when a black baby is born alive after a botched abortion that she be treated as any other child at that gestational age and that medical attention be sought to preserve her life. Now, I know that Democrats would love to take guns away from law abiding citizens who just want to protect their families - but do they love killing newborn black babies more than destroying the second amendment? That's a good question that I don't know the answer. I propose that Republicans make any gun control vote contingent on there being a vote on the Born Alive Act.

What do you think? Do you think Democrats would hold a vote on letting newborn black babies live (they could still vote to kill them if they want), so they could get the Republicans on record for a gun control vote? What do you think?

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BLACK3STPANTH3R

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@just_sayin:

@black3stpanth3r: Hey buddy! As someone who wants to take away law-abiding gun owners guns, I know that you get frustrated at Congress' inaction on gun control. So I was thinking of a compromise. Today marks 6 months since the Born Alive Act was first submitted to Congress for a vote. Over 80 times in that 6 months, Nancy Pelosi has refused to allow it to come up for a vote. The Born Alive bill would make it the law that when a black baby is born alive after a botched abortion that she be treated as any other child at that gestational age and that medical attention be sought to preserve her life. Now, I know that Democrats would love to take guns away from law abiding citizens who just want to protect their families - but do they love killing newborn black babies more than destroying the second amendment? That's a good question that I don't know the answer. I propose that Republicans make any gun control vote contingent on there being a vote on the Born Alive Act.

What do you think? Do you think Democrats would hold a vote on letting newborn black babies live (they could still vote to kill them if they want), so they could get the Republicans on record for a gun control vote? What do you think?

I personally think everyone born should have access to medical care, but obviously you don't because you don't believe in health care for all. I do agree that children born should have access to medical care, but I believe everyone should have access to medical care, unlike you, I don't think born alive cases should be the only ones guaranteed medical care... just saying.

A better compromise would be gun control legislation for healthcare for all.

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just_sayin

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#8143  Edited By just_sayin

@black3stpanth3r said:

@just_sayin:

@just_sayin said:

@black3stpanth3r: Hey buddy! As someone who wants to take away law-abiding gun owners guns, I know that you get frustrated at Congress' inaction on gun control. So I was thinking of a compromise. Today marks 6 months since the Born Alive Act was first submitted to Congress for a vote. Over 80 times in that 6 months, Nancy Pelosi has refused to allow it to come up for a vote. The Born Alive bill would make it the law that when a black baby is born alive after a botched abortion that she be treated as any other child at that gestational age and that medical attention be sought to preserve her life. Now, I know that Democrats would love to take guns away from law abiding citizens who just want to protect their families - but do they love killing newborn black babies more than destroying the second amendment? That's a good question that I don't know the answer. I propose that Republicans make any gun control vote contingent on there being a vote on the Born Alive Act.

What do you think? Do you think Democrats would hold a vote on letting newborn black babies live (they could still vote to kill them if they want), so they could get the Republicans on record for a gun control vote? What do you think?

I personally think everyone born should have access to medical care, but obviously you don't because you don't believe in health care for all. I do agree that children born should have access to medical care, but I believe everyone should have access to medical care, unlike you, I don't think born alive cases should be the only ones guaranteed medical care... just saying.

A better compromise would be gun control legislation for healthcare for all.

Papa Pitufo, I want healthcare, I just don't want it to be like the "care" at the VA. I don't want the government to be able to deny me a cataract surgery because - a government bureacrat thinks me going blind is what they call "elective surgery" (that's what happened in England). I don't want a mass exodus of doctors leaving the profession like in England and Canada. I don't want rural people to have to wait 4 times what city folk have to wait like in Canada. I don't want brain damaged Democrats to have to wait 9 months just to see a specialist like they have to do in Canada. I think you deserve better than government care. I believe you need to get help immediately, buddy.

Government running healthcare will do for our country's healthcare what the government did for public schools in Baltimore.

Obamacare increased my healthcare payments by $1000. My deductible went from $500 to $2,000 and what it covered went down. Haven't you guys messed things up enough already?

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Razcaz

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#8144  Edited By Razcaz

'gun control' for healthcare for all is the reason why nothing gets done in Congress cuz they try to pass unequal terms. The first is protected by the Constitution so you know what it takes to over turn it, the second is not

Its like when people have shirts that say, we can end gun violence. It isnt through legislation. DUIs kill just as many Americans than guns, and you have to include the suicides to get that number. If you made alcohol illegal again it wouldnt stop DUIs cuz drinking while driving is already illegal

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BLACK3STPANTH3R

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@razcaz: Life , liberty, and the pursuit of happiness

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Razcaz

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@black3stpanth3r:

the phrase alone I could shred

Im for increased background checks.

I dont like the idea of the social media giants/tech companies being the overseers of action tho

the second amendment is actually a paradox since it actually wants the citizens to have guns against an over powerful government

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BLACK3STPANTH3R

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@just_sayin: I think private insurance should still exist, but I think everyone should be able to have access to health care.

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BLACK3STPANTH3R

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@razcaz: I'm for increased back ground checks too, I'm for increased gun safety as well, and I'm for a ban in assault rifles. The second amendment only gives you the right to bear arms, but it doesn't say anything about having the right to fire those arms technically speaking.

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Razcaz

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@black3stpanth3r: but the 4th and other amendments protect the citizen from exercising the possession of the 2nd

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BLACK3STPANTH3R

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@razcaz: with that being said, each individual state or jurisdiction has their own set of laws regarding that, and we also have to remember that none of the rights are absolute, we have the freedom of speech but that isn't absolute either.