Political Vibe: What is your view on abortion?

So... it's okay to encourage slavery if someone thinks they have it coming? When are you going to start up a new chain gang?

@aquaman01: A woman that cannot afford a pregnancy is doing the responsible thing by terminating it.

@erik: It's not that they "have it coming" but your so quick to make it seem like the woman is a victim of something, no one forced her to have unprotected sex. You know what I am pro choice, a woman can and should CHOOSE to not have unprotected sex, a woman CAN CHOOSE not to have sex at all, before she's ready for a child. She is not a victim, she is only a victim if she was raped.

Not this topic again.

That's just another way of saying what you said though.

A women is a victim when someone tries to strip them of their rights like they are a criminal or subhuman.

A woman can choose to have unprotected sex because that is her body to do with as she pleases. Therefore she can choose what she allows to gestate inside of her body.

If you don't want an abortion, then don't get one. You have no right to control another person's body though. None whatsoever.

If she cannot afford it, maybe she should have thought have thought that through? lol, not gonna feel sorry for someone who aren't smart enough to think that they might get pregnant by accident. Though that would suck for the baby of course, but personally, I know I would rather have a chance of living poor than not living at all. I mean, if she wants to abort it because of financial problems, fine. I mean, if that girl is that irresponsible for not respecting her body, then she as heck wouldn't care that I don't respect her lol And by "prepare", I don't mean that everything will be perfect and happy. No matter the preparation, there is a good chance she still won't be ready for the child either financially or emotionally. However, that is still better than finding out your pregnant and literally not knowing what to do next.

As a single guy who doesn't want children, I honestly don't care what other people do, including abortions. I know people who have done arguably worse things than that, so it isn't like I think that person would be bad or anything.

Well, I'm Christian; that episode had nothing to do with an agenda; the episode was actually more about a contrite individual who was coming closer to God.

@dshipp17: What you described sounds like an agenda to me. It's ok, every group has them. I wasn't dogging on Christianity, just noting that the 700 Club probably isn't the best place to find unbiased opinions and "facts" about abortion.

This thread is 3 years old...

So.... she is responsible for terminating a pregnancy that she can't afford but you are going to force a women into irresponsible action because you think a women deserves pregnancy for having sex? That is probably the most chauvinistic, disgusting thing I have seen on this site yet. And I've been here for nearly as long as the site has been running.

@jaken7: Yeah but someone bumped it even though there were like 50 different threads about abortion.

Here is a thumbnail sketch of the scientific evidence of the existence of human life before birth. These are irrefutable facts, about which there is no dispute in the scientific community.[3]

At the moment when a human sperm penetrates a human ovum, or egg, generally in the upper portion of the Fallopian Tube, a new entity comes into existence. "Zygote" is the name of the first cell formed at conception, the earliest developmental stage of the human embryo, followed by the "Morula" and "Blastocyst" stages.[4]

Is it human? Is it alive? Is it just a cell or is it an actual organism, a "being?" These are logical questions. Here are the answers.

The zygote is composed of human DNA and other human molecules, so its nature is undeniably human and not some other species.

The new human zygote has a genetic composition that is absolutely unique from itself, different from any other human that has ever existed, including that of its mother (thus disproving the claim that what is involved in abortion is merely "a woman and her body").[5]

This DNA includes a complete "design," guiding not only early development but even hereditary attributes that will appear in childhood and adulthood, from hair and eye color to personality traits.[6]

It is also quite clear that the earliest human embryo is biologically alive. It fulfills the four criteria needed to establish biological life: metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction.[7]

Finally, is the human zygote merely a new kind of cell or is it a human organism; that is, a human being? Scientists define an organism as a complex structure of interdependent elements constituted to carry on the activities of life by separately-functioning but mutually dependent organs.[8] The human zygote meets this definition with ease. Once formed, it initiates a complex sequence of events to ready it for continued development and growth:

The zygote acts immediately and decisively to initiate a program of development that will, if uninterrupted by accident, disease, or external intervention, proceed seamlessly through formation of the definitive body, birth, childhood, adolescence, maturity, and aging, ending with death. This coordinated behavior is the very hallmark of an organism.[9]

By contrast, while a mere collection of human cells may carry on the activities of cellular life, it will not exhibit coordinated interactions directed towards a higher level of organization.[10]

Thus, the scientific evidence is quite plain: at the moment of fusion of human sperm and egg, a new entity comes into existence which is distinctly human, alive, and an individual organism - a living, and fully human, being.[11]

[4] Marjorie A. England, "What Is An Embryo?" in Life Before Birth, Marjorie A. England (London:Mosby-Wolfe, 1996).

[5] Keith L. Moore and T.V.N. Persaud, The DevelopingHuman: Clinically Oriented Embryology (Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Co., 1998): 77, 350.

[6] Ibid.

[7] Carl Sagan, Billions and Billions (New York: Random House, 1997): 163-179. See The American HeritageMedical Dictionary: "The property or quality that distinguishes living organisms from dead organisms and inanimate matter, manifested in functions such as metabolism, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptation to the environment originating from within the organism." The American Heritage Medical Dictionary, reprint edition (May 7, 2008), s.v. "Life."

[8] For more on the definition of an organism see MedlinePlus, the online health information service of the National Institutes of Health: MedlinePlus/Merriam-Webster Online, s.v. "Organism," accessed January 21, 2011 , http://www.merriam-webster.com/ medlineplus/organism.

[9] Maureen L. Condic, "When Does Human Life Begin? A Scientific Perspective," The Westchester Institute for Ethics and the Human Person, Westchester Institute White Paper Series 1, no. 1 (October 2008):7. Full article available at: http://www.westches-terinstitute.net/resources/white-papers/351-white-paper.

[10] Ibid., 7.

[11] As a general proposition, every human being comes into existence by the fusion of a human egg with a human sperm, but twinning can result in multiple children from one human egg, and there is the potential for cloning of a human embryo. See Judith G. Hall, "Twinning," The Lancet, 362 (August 20, 2003): 735-43. See also, National Institutes of Health, Stem Cell Information Glossary, s.v. "Somatic cell nuclear transfer (SCNT)," accessed March 15, 2011, http://stemcells.nih.gov/StemCells/Templates/StemCellContentPage.aspx?NRMODE=Published&NRNODEGUID={3C35 BAB 6-0FE6-4C4E-95F2-2CB61B58D96D}&NRORIGINAL URL=%2finfo%2fglossary.asp&NRCACHEHINT =NoModifyGuest#scnt.

A woman should have full control over her own body, just my opinion

That's because Saren locked this thread: http://www.comicvine.com/forums/off-topic-5/guns-take-lives-but-so-do-abortions-1568543/

He literally told us to post here instead. I guess this is now CV's official abortion thread... *shakes head sadly*

What amazing insight! You hear that folks? A fetus is actually "human and not some other species." Welp, looks like we've been schooled. Guess we can pack up and go home...

Where did you even copy/paste that big wall of speculative text from?

a Zygote isn't a fetus, its not considered a fetus till the ninth week of pregnancy. also did you bother to read the whole text? I would like you, if you would be so kind, to scientifically disprove the scientific points made in the text above.

@matthewparker: It's interesting that some of the sources of that clipping that would be medically and scientifically challenged do not exist. Hmmm.... I suspect an article was published but retracted because it was not scientifically supported.

It still exists. Can you scientifically disprove the points in the article in question? i just realized i didn't put the sources for [3]. if that's what your talking about.

[3] This paper does not discuss fetal pain because the time at which a child in the womb can experience pain is hotly disputed, and the aim of this paper is to present only undisputed facts so that a persuasive argument can be made without the distraction of a contest over facts. To read more about fetal pain, please see Ashley Morrow Fragoso, "Fetal Pain: Can Unborn Children Feel Pain in the Womb?" Family Research Council, 2010.

Well it was a joke anyways. Here, I'll fix it:

Also,

A plant is distinctly alive and an individual organism. Should we no longer garden or kill weeds?

Deserves? When did I ever say that? While pregnancy is natural, sex is also fun. There is nothing wrong with having fun and not wanting to get pregnant. However, the MAIN objective about sex (not your personal one, the biology one) is to conceive a child. Thus, a person should know 100% that there is a chance for a child. Not saying that sex should only be for pregnancy, but just be AWARE and cautious.

And I would never force anyone into anything. I may be pro-life, but I would never force a woman to give birth. Just my belief on how it SHOULD be in a perfect world. But, like I said, I don't really care. I just wanted to post my opinion on it, not try to force people to give birth... I just believe people should take responsibility for their actions. Or at LEAST learn from them. I mean, what about the people who have abortions 2 times or even more? There is NO reason at all (besides of course, things like rape or harming the mother) to have more than 1.

Although it is funny when you call that chauvinistic, when I consider myself, for both good AND the bad (this is the bad of course) to be 100% equal for all people. I consider women to be equal to myself, but I as heck am not going to treat them special. Same with everyone else.

a chicken is a distinctly alive, and individual organism, should we not eat it? the point was to disprove the myth that "its just a piece of meat". because its not it is a human being.

also i asked you to scientifically disprove the paper, which you have not done.

Am against, there's always an alternative like adoption? Being responsible and being a mother?

Only exception IMO where abortion is necessary is if the mother's life is at stake.

Now you're trying to tell us that fetuses feel pain? I-I-I can't even...no. It is NOT "hotly disputed," it's not even questioned! The answer is no! What is pain without memories, consciousness, self-awareness, and sentience!? I feel like we're about to get into another circumcision debate. While an organism may have a physical reaction to an infliction of what we would perceive as "pain," that doesn't mean that information is retained. How many times can you remember being in pain within the first couple years of your life?

Thanks for further proving my own point.

And no, because the paper was highly speculative and spun objective scientific fact to fit the author's own opinion. It's not worth refuting because there is nothing really to refute.

I followed the sources listed in your clip. Some of them are not working. The one that would not hold up to any scientific scrutiny, source 11, does not exist. So they are not undisputed facts.

Family Research Council is a religious organization. Not much they say is going to be worth a spit. Where are the scholarly journals for your so-called 'facts'?

Fair enough. It seems as though I misread your post.

@jaken7 said:

@matthewparker said:

@erik said:

@matthewparker: It's interesting that some of the sources of that clipping that would be medically and scientifically challenged do not exist. Hmmm.... I suspect an article was published but retracted because it was not scientifically supported.

It still exists. Can you scientifically disprove the points in the article in question? i just realized i didn't put the sources for [3]. if that's what your talking about.

[3] This paper does not discuss fetal pain because the time at which a child in the womb can experience pain is hotly disputed, and the aim of this paper is to present only undisputed facts so that a persuasive argument can be made without the distraction of a contest over facts. To read more about fetal pain, please see Ashley Morrow Fragoso, "Fetal Pain: Can Unborn Children Feel Pain in the Womb?" Family Research Council, 2010.

Now you're trying to tell us that fetuses feel pain? I-I-I can't even...no. It is NOT "hotly disputed," it's not even questioned! The answer is no! What is pain without memories, consciousness, self-awareness, and sentience!? I feel like we're about to get into another circumcision debate. While an organism may have a physical reaction to an infliction of what we would perceive as "pain," that doesn't mean that information is retained. How many times can you remember being in pain within the first couple years of your life?

painpān/noun

1. 1.physical suffering or discomfort caused by illness or injury."she's in great pain"

   synonyms:

   suffering, agony, torture, torment, discomfort More Yes it is hotly disputed, and the dictionary definition of pain, does not require you to remember that pain. also when are you going to scientifically disprove the articles points?

@matthewparker: How does that dictionary definition disprove anything I said in regards to pain? Like, at all?

You are ridicules, the point is the zygote is fully human. you are also distinctly alive and an individual organism....should we eat you. my second point was you cant compare a human being to a chicken, or plant.

@erik: Well, it doesn't help that I am not good at talking about controversial topics lol. I always say something more offensive than I mean. And I shouldn't have said I wouldn't respect the women who abort, just their choice. THAT was pretty mean, I admit.

And I am CERTAINLY not in the position to judge others unless it is rape or murder. lol

fine here is the scientific definition, which once again does not require the individual to remember the pain.

1a : a state of physical, emotional, or mental lack of well-being or physical, emotional, or mental uneasiness that ranges from mild discomfort or dull distress to acute often unbearable agony, may be generalized or localized, and is the consequence of being injured or hurt physically or mentally or of some derangement of or lack of equilibrium in the physical or mental functions (as through disease), and that usually produces a reaction of wanting to avoid, escape, or destroy the causative factor and its effects<was in constant pain>

@matthewparker: I'm honestly not even understanding what you're trying to say anymore, bud. Sorry. :/

good, because im done with arguing with you.

@matthewparker: A zygote is not fully human. That claim is beyond stupid. A zygote has all the coding necessary to POSSIBLY create a human. A zygote fits as many of the criteria for being alive as a many cells in a human body do. Biologically alive was never in question. Biological life doesn't matter.

PLEASE take a biology class. A human development class would be cool as well, but I imagine you will ignore what you don't like in such a class...

@matthewparker: I never said pain needed to be remembered to be considered pain, just that "pain" doesn't make a difference if it isn't. Pain receptors are a teaching tool and warning sign of danger. That's why life is so dangerous for kids who have been born with the rare condition to not feel pain. For all they know, stabbing themselves with a knife and burning themselves is no big whoop.

If a being isn't sentient or self-aware, does it know pain? While we're starting to get more into a philosophical debate, I don't think it's possible that it could.

@erik: I cannot thank you enough for articulating that which I cannot, on this matter at least. It's too close to me. I tend to lose my sh!t.

Much respect to you, sir, and if I could reach through this screen and throw in a cheeky hug then dang it, I would hehe :)

@matthewparker: So ending an argument via confusion and misunderstanding is preferable to you? Strange...

they can be regarded as facts (in this forum) till you or someone else can scientifically disprove them. also i will look into why the sources are not there. i have to go, but ill be back on later.

This thread has been very entertaining, continue.

no im ending the argument, because you refuse to hear my points, and say my facts are untrue, even though you cant scientifically disprove them. also i have to go, if you wish we can continue this later.

@matthewparker: Some of your facts are true, yes. That's not what I have a problem with. Your MISINTERPRETATION of said facts, and how you misuse them to support your argument is what I have a problem with. Not to mention the biased products of religous agenda you purport as facts (like the quote about a fetus feeling pain. FFS).

Sounds fine.

Thank you very much. It's always nice to know others are in my corner.

WRONG! I don't think you have any clue what science is or how it works. Nothing is fact until it is supported and tested, then published in a scholarly journal AS fact. What you are doing right now is using opinion pieces with questionable science and claiming they are facts. It's silly and it's exactly why religious nuts looks like clowns in any scientific debate.

What about if contraceptives fail more than once when you're not ready to have a child?

This. Also I'm sorry but you can't just have abortions willy nilly (excuse my poor word choice) if a woman gets pregnant multiple times it's her fault nobody is making her into a baby factory by denying her right to abortion

She would not be stripped off any rights like a criminal. No one is treating them like criminals or saying 'You don't deserve rights.'

If she has unprotected sex she should have thought of consequences. You can't live a life where you don't think of the consequences and get off scot free.

What if the contraceptives being used fail? Can that really be blamed on her?

Well things like that and rape is a different story. I was talking about when she has sex on purpose unprotected

Actually they are. When you deny someone the right to control their body, you have made them into a slave. That's what a person without rights is.

If a woman is stripped of the right to control her body, then she has been stripped of her rights as though she were a criminal. You don't deserve the right to control your body. You don't deserve autonomy. That is exactly what YOU are saying. You are saying that women that get pregnant do not deserve basic human rights. You are saying a woman is less to you than a corpse, as a corpse still has the right to autonomy.

An abortion is not getting off scot free...

So what? It's not your body to control. If you don't want abortions, then create an artificial uterus and solve the problem to everyone's satisfaction.

I never said abortion is getting off scot free, but you don't have to have the baby the consequence/result of having unprotected sex.

Assuming, that not allowing a woman to avoid consequences of her actions is depriving her of her rights you are depriving her of A right and it's not like she's a criminal and NO WHERE close to a corpse. I am not saying that, at what point did I say You should have no right to control your body? Just a question: When are criminals stripped of the right to control their bodies?

Obviously there are exceptions for example Rape or failed birth control.

If you're going to do something just think about the consequences, if she has unprotected sex whose fault is it that she is going to have a baby? Not the unborn child, just her.