Political Vibe: What is your view on abortion?

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Shadowwaker

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It should be their body their choice. I wish more people were against my foreskin being cut off and used for profits by saying it's their choice.

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I think it's pretty ok under shit like sexual assault (context needed) but generally I consider it murder

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It's a case-by-case type of situation.

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Shinne

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Oh no...

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AlphaQ

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#506  Edited By AlphaQ

@jayc1324:

It should be the woman's choice. People make claims about whether it has a soul or if it is an actual human life yet or whatever but that stuff is about your own personal beliefs. You can't force your own personal beliefs on others. You may think it should count as a human life despite not being fully developed, someone may disagree. But there is no actual objective answer. So it comes down to what you personally believe, and everyone has the right to choose for themselves when it can be considered a human life. It is also a personal choice only truly affecting the woman who is pregnant. She should have control over that and the ability to do what she thinks is best for herself. Her safety should come first, before some unborn baby. It is way too personal of an issue for anyone else to decide.

Mate, I think this is quite a silly thing to say. You say that there is no objective answer to whether or not the unborn is a person deserving of value or not, but you also claim that it only affects the pregnant woman. There's two contradiction there, the first that you assume the unborn is not a person with value and you assumed that the pregnant woman is, even though you say there is no objective metric. You deny the existence of one, yet you implicitly use one. You even said someone can't impose their personal beliefs on others, which is also a contradiction because it assumes, in this case, that the pregnant woman is a person and that the unborn is not, because they're also having the views of others imposed on them.

I'll agree with you in so far as there being no objective way of deciding whether or not they are a person with value or not, but I'll also make the point that there is no "objective" way of acquiring knowledge or values. All of our knowledge and values are ultimately subjective and they are imposed upon others inevitably. What about outlawing murder/rape/theft, socializing children to care for their peers, institutionalizing people who are a danger to themselves and the host of other ways we interfere with each other based on knowledge and ethical claims and axioms? Are they illegitimate to?

Another issue, not being able to get an abortion gives men way too much control over women in terms of rape. Like if a woman is raped and impregnated and she is forced to have the baby. That's effed up. And people saying abortion is ok only when the woman is raped are just inconsistent. Like, if you think it counts as a human life, it's okay to kill it because the mother got raped? That is how you are justifying murder? If someone's mom gets raped, it is okay to kill them? That is ridiculous. I view pro-lifers as those who believe it is okay to force their own personal belief system onto others. I am religious myself but everyone can choose for themselves.

I mean, rape is illegal virtually everywhere. If in this comparison you're willing to grant men the "power" of rape despite it being illegal then it seems inconsistent to believe that the illegality of abortion is disempowering, because like rape they would still happen. Lets take the common thought experiment where tomorrow you wake up to find a small child has been fused to your body by malevolent interlopers, who will die if you elect to break with him/her, and who will be safely removed in nine months. While it is true that the interlopers have victimized and in some sense taken control of your body, that does not necessarily mean that you are justified in bringing about the death of a child. I believe that someone in that situation should remain with the child until they are removed, what I want to know is what do you think?

Lastly, I would be interested in knowing how many pro-lifers are also against the death penalty.

I'm not sure if I would be considered a "pro-lifer", but I'm generally against it. I find the concept of justice to be ridiculous, because it assumes free will, which we have no evidence for. Ultimately I think morality should be grounded in utilitarianism, at least in a meta sense, and have ideals of rights and responsibilities built around that as a functional model. I also distrust the state and think it is realistically far too costly to execute people.

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FaradaySloth

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should only be legal for first and second trimester (and of course under sexual assault cases)

Other than that, it should be illegal and immoral.

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Lil_Remains

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There’s nothing wrong with abortion. It’s not killing a fetus. You cannot kill which is not alive.

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Lil_Remains

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#509  Edited By Lil_Remains

@amberprice said:I think it's pretty ok under shit like sexual assault (context needed) but generally I consider it murder

But, like, they aren’t alive yet. Look at the 7 characteristics of life, fetuses do not fit that.

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Barring special circumstances I'm against it.

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Keenko

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@amberprice: If abortion is murder, why is it okay to murder a baby born of rape?

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Being "pro-life" is the neutral position. Being "pro-choice" is the position of the aggressor. I don't think "life starts at the point of conception" but at some point the fertilised egg becomes a distinct human being, and aborting that being is what could be called murder. It's an interesting debate because there are all kinds of viewpoints you can take on it.

The most compelling argument I've heard for being pro-choice is that, in a sense, you can look at a developing baby as a parasite which the mother has every right to remove from her body. A pretty grotesque way to look at a baby, but technically correct: it uses up energy and resources it does not give back. It's not self sustaining. There is no other case quite like having a child, but I suppose you can try to draw some parallels with looking after an elderly or disabled relative, or a pet, who would die if they did not have your help. They are innocent, but if they are not cared for, they die. They aren't actually attached to other human beings in a physical sense and don't affect your physical wellbeing, but they present a financial burden which can be looked at similarly - theft is considered a form of aggression.

The other argument I've thought about is, what makes taking a life bad? Does life have inherent value? Is consciousness what is important? Is how much pain the being feels important? Is it their intelligence? Their future potential? Is it based solely on species? Is it brain activity? Heart beat? Does life become valuable at the point of gestation which IIRC is when the baby's DNA splits and becomes a unique being?

On one hand, I find a lot of pro choice arguments inevitably lead to double standards if you just use a comparable example. On the other hand, when pro lifers ascribe value to life at a certain point, and you ask "why then specifically", they usually give an arbitrary answer. It's kind of arbitrary to say life begins at the point of conception for obvious reasons. Similarly, it's quite arbitrary to say abortion at any time, or even just very late into the pregnancy, is okay, for X, Y or Z reasons (e.g using pain inhibiting drugs so the developing baby feels nothing, baby isn't smart enough yet to care about it's own life etc), but then saying killing a baby that has just been born is wrong, even though the same reasons can be applied to that baby in the outside world.

So yeah, tough one. I definitely lean towards being pro life, especially the later on in the pregnancy it gets. As soon as it starts looking like a baby with arms and legs, it's basically got to be considered murder. You know just by looking.

As for the less than one percent of cases where a child is born of rape, meaning the rape wasn't reported immediately, no emergency contraception was taken etc - which has like a 99% prevention rate if taken right away IIRC - then the only argument that could really work is for you to prove abortion isn't wrong period. It doesn't make sense to say abortion is wrong, but it's permissible if the woman was raped. Doing a bad thing in response to something bad happening to you... is still doing a bad thing. The same if you did a bad thing for any other reason. If you do consider anything at all wrong with aborting a baby, then that means, by your own logic, the most moral position for a woman in that case is to carry the baby all the way to birth. Doesn't mean she has to look after them, but killing them is still killing them, right? If aborting a baby is bad regardless of how the parents or anyone else feels about it, meaning killing the baby is bad purely for the sake of killing the baby, then that means that it makes no difference to the baby how they were conceived - murder is murder.

The bigger picture here, is probably that we should be asking "is it moral to live a life and make decisions that leads to you needing to get an abortion in the first place" or "is it moral to introduce a child to a hellish life where the parents are unprepared to provide for them emotionally and materially" - frankly I think all of this stuff about "it's the woman's body, she gets to choose" is in a sense a way for people to make excuses for women's poor decisions. "I have the right to risk creating a life and hit the delete button on it because I was too lazy to use protection or wait until I was with a man I knew I wanted a child with and who could help me create a stable family."

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Pharoh_Atem

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I have no opinion either way.

Just do you, I guess.

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Zetsu-San

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I have no opinion either way.

Just do you, I guess.

You do realize that that's basically the same as being pro-choice, right?

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@lil_remains: @keenko: well rape is a different case to me. Abortion is obviously illegal in a lot of countries because a lot of people see it as immoral, because whatever was inside that belly was alive & could've experience this world like you & I do if it wasn't for abortion, probably they could've been better human being than both of us. It's taking away something from other people for self-righteous purpose. Why should the child die because their parents were careless & irresponsible? What if they aborted you, huh? Ever think of that? Life matters. To me, those who believe that abortion should be legal then should have no problem w/murder being legalised. It's essentially the same thing. I honestly never understood how ppl can view this as humane/ethical in anyway. I think so, a life is a life imo, just because he couldn't defend himself, doesn't mean the mother have the right to kill the child. It still has right to live as much as the mother. Her body, yes but baby ain't property tho, it has its own life, they breathe. It's not her own life that she's ending

Now, I feel like abortion is ok under incest cause incest is very barbaric to me. If your father is your brother, this isn't an actual family, it's barbaric to me, it's ridiculously disgusting

Please note that I am not religious, this is just my view on abortion

Also, I'm not saying that abortion is 100% ok under rape, I'm still unconvinced.

In conclusion, I think it's better if the mother didn't abort the child under rape but it's ok if you abort a child under incest, cause your child's father is your own brother (for example), what kind of shit is that? It's barbaric & disgusting

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Lil_Remains

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#517  Edited By Lil_Remains

@amberprice: Abortion=Murder being legalized.

Makes sense. Beridding a clump of paristic cells, is equivalent to murdering a living, breathing, self sustaining human.

Again, a fetus is not a “life”. It has the potential for life, but is not living. Therefore they cannot be killed. A fetus is not a “child” nor a “baby” it is a fetus, and that alone.

And incest is more barbaric than rape to you? Wow

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@lil_remains: well, let me ask you a question then. What if you were aborted? Ever think of that?

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Lil_Remains

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@amberprice: I wouldn’t feel anything if I was aborted, and as a result if I was aborted, I would not care.

I mean, if your dad had nutted an hour earlier or later, you wouldn’t be here. That’s a better analogy for abortion.

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@lil_remains: so basically, you're not thankful that you're alive & breathing? Ok smfh...

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If it depends on the woman to give it life, I say she has the choice of whether it lives or not.

Being forced to keep something alive.. inside of you... that's leeching off of your energy... because some people think "killing is always wrong" is a terrible way to go about it.

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Zetsu-San

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#522  Edited By Zetsu-San

@amberprice said:

@lil_remains: so basically, you're not thankful that you're alive & breathing? Ok smfh...

If you're aborted, you literally cannot feel emotions... So he's right in saying that he wouldn't feel anything.

Also, your responses is pretty ironic. You're one of the most over angsty and pessimistic people I have ever interacted with.

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@mylittlefascist: you're right about me lol. But still, if you abort a baby, you killed them, that's just my view

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Zetsu-San

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@mylittlefascist: you're right about me lol. But still, if you abort a baby, you killed them, that's just my view

Depends on how far along the fetus is. Following your logic, you kill thousands of people every time you jerk off then...

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Pharoh_Atem

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@mylittlefascist:

You can say that, yeah. But. I'm not opposed to pro-life side either.

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To me, life doesn’t have intrinsic value just based on potential. OK, so a newly formed zygote is “alive” in a sense of the word, but so are my skin cells and no one is comparing them to a human life. People will say that it’s the potential for a human life to form that’s sacred, but then we can say that sperm and unfertilised eggs also have that potential and again, nobody thinks they should count as human life.

So what constitutes valuable life? Bacteria and plants may be important for other species to survive, but they don’t have much intrinsic value as individuals. When I spray disinfectant, I’m not gonna mourn the loss of the bacteria I might be killing. This can even be extended to animals for many people. As a vegetarian, I would try to avoid killing animals, but even I won’t lose any sleep over crushing some ants because I don’t believe they have consciousness, at least not in the way that we and other higher animals do. Anyone who eats meat is justifying the murder of something far more conscious and complex and with far more individuality and, IMO, value than a human zygote.

At some point after conception but before birth, the baby develops into more than just a cluster of cells and becomes alive in the true, valuable sense. Something way beyond a sperm cell, a plant or a zygote. I believe that in the vast majority of cases, women will be aware of the pregnancy before this point is reached and it is their right to have a termination before this stage. I don’t know at which point it becomes unethical because I don’t know enough about developmental neurology, perhaps nobody can say for certain. So I am certainly pro-choice up to a point in the pregnancy at which there is a grey area.

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Lil_Remains

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@lil_remains: so basically, you're not thankful that you're alive & breathing? Ok smfh...

That's not what you asked, nor is that relevant.

Such is a strawman and a non-sequitur

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Luellas

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Pro choice. Get rid of all the babies.

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deactivated-5d26a3a3d293d

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I consider it murder, but I’m still okay with it.

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@luellas said:

Pro choice. Get rid of all the babies.

No Caption Provided

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Chimeroid

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@amberprice said:

@lil_remains: so basically, you're not thankful that you're alive & breathing? Ok smfh...

That's not what you asked, nor is that relevant.

Such is a strawman and a non-sequitur

The evolution of the vine where Rev has to bat away trolls is an interesting one. :)

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@purpleperson:

Anyone who eats meat is justifying the murder of something far more conscious and complex and with far more individuality and, IMO, value than a human zygote.

Which is why my mind is blown over everyone's outrage over the abortion debate but total apathy towards killing animals for luxury.

"omfg this sperm that swam inside this egg will one day be timmy, it's so unholy and wrong to kill it"

"Yes I will order the formerly intelligent conscious baby animal that had it's head cut off with a side of peppercorn sauce, lol"

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Keenko

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Lmao abortion brings out the most obnoxious parts of people

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Azureus

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@purpleperson:

Anyone who eats meat is justifying the murder of something far more conscious and complex and with far more individuality and, IMO, value than a human zygote.

Which is why my mind is blown over everyone's outrage over the abortion debate but total apathy towards killing animals for luxury.

"omfg this sperm that swam inside this egg will one day be timmy, it's so unholy and wrong to kill it"

"Yes I will order the formerly intelligent conscious baby animal that had it's head cut off with a side of peppercorn sauce, lol"

Well to begin with, society and humans with common sense tend to value human life over animal life, the evil of eating meat only exists in the heads of those who can make that comparison, so it's not as if your own standpoint on this issue even matters. Second, no one ever aborts a zygote, it's usually an embryo or a fetus.

Your argument only makes sense if animal lives are weighed the same as a humans. In the real world, they're not. So where does that leave you?

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@azureus: for people who say life begins at conception, it doesn’t matter whether it’s a zygote or a fetus or whatever - it is a human life either way. As it’s this position I’m arguing against, the zygote point is relevant even if they are never aborted until later stages.

You don’t have to value human life and animal life equally to see the evil in eating meat, you simply have to value animal life to an extent. The characteristics that make human life more valuable than that of other animals are not present in a fetus at an early stage of development, unless you believe that the mere characteristic of being comprised of human cells is what makes us more valuable than animals, which I disagree with.

It’s not as if my own standpoint matters. Well obviously not, I don’t make laws. I assumed this thread was a place where we could discuss our opinions. If you don’t like mine or you disagree then fine, but no one in this thread’s standpoint even matters, so why are we bothering to discuss this issue at all?

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I am pro-life except in cases of rape, incest, or when the mother's life is in jeopardy.

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Azureus

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@purpleperson:

for people who say life begins at conception, it doesn’t matter whether it’s a zygote or a fetus or whatever - it is a human life either way. As it’s this position I’m arguing against, the zygote point is relevant even if they are never aborted until later stages.

Following so far....

You don’t have to value human life and animal life equally to see the evil in eating meat...

But it's not evil.

you simply have to value animal life to an extent.

To what extent though? There are those who wouldn't swat a fly but would happily consume a rack of ribs. This is clearly not just an issue of simply valuing animal life, this is an issue of equating an animal to a human being. Otherwise, why would anyone think of it wrong to kill and eat an animal? It's because you already personified it and assigned value to it.

The characteristics that make human life more valuable than that of other animals are not present in a fetus at an early stage of development...

That doesn't change anything nor is that ever the point. If this was how the value of life was measured, newborns wouldn't be valued to the extent they are.

unless you believe that the mere characteristic of being comprised of human cells is what makes us more valuable than animals, which I disagree with.

Well no one ever measures human life by this standard, infact Human life is really not measured at all except on an individual level.

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Pro-choice.

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Doofasa

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@jayc1324 said:

It should be the woman's choice. People make claims about whether it has a soul or if it is an actual human life yet or whatever but that stuff is about your own personal beliefs. You can't force your own personal beliefs on others. You may think it should count as a human life despite not being fully developed, someone may disagree. But there is no actual objective answer. So it comes down to what you personally believe, and everyone has the right to choose for themselves when it can be considered a human life. It is also a personal choice only truly affecting the woman who is pregnant. She should have control over that and the ability to do what she thinks is best for herself. Her safety should come first, before some unborn baby. It is way too personal of an issue for anyone else to decide.

Another issue, not being able to get an abortion gives men way too much control over women in terms of rape. Like if a woman is raped and impregnated and she is forced to have the baby. That's effed up. And people saying abortion is ok only when the woman is raped are just inconsistent. Like, if you think it counts as a human life, it's okay to kill it because the mother got raped? That is how you are justifying murder? If someone's mom gets raped, it is okay to kill them? That is ridiculous. I view pro-lifers as those who believe it is okay to force their own personal belief system onto others. I am religious myself but everyone can choose for themselves.

Lastly, I would be interested in knowing how many pro-lifers are also against the death penalty.

You summed up my thoughts exactly.

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@azureus:

Well to begin with, society and humans with common sense tend to value human life over animal life, the evil of eating meat only exists in the heads of those who can make that comparison, so it's not as if your own standpoint on this issue even matters.

No, it's a logical extension of values that all normal, law abiding people have. For example, normal people would consider it evil to even hit a dog, never mind torture one, separate a family of dogs or kill and eat them. So logically it does not make sense to do those things to a cow so you can have a McDonalds burger. Just because you value human life more (and everyone does), it doesn't mean you can dismiss the mistreatment and killing of animals.

Second, no one ever aborts a zygote, it's usually an embryo or a fetus.

In my post I was making a pretty obvious comparison to people who follow the teachings of the Catholic Church (who believe life starts at conception) who still find it moral to kill and eat lambs. It's not my problem if you misinterpret what I'm saying.

Your argument only makes sense if animal lives are weighed the same as a humans. In the real world, they're not. So where does that leave you?

No, you just need to see some value in animal life for my argument to work, and it does, and in certain contexts it's an argument you would fully endorse or otherwise risk social ostracization. People in the west lose their minds over the Chinese eating dogs, and they don't just call for "free range" dogs or "humane dog meat" - they march in the streets and sign petitions to ban dog meat because killing dogs to eat them, when you don't need to, is wrong. It's not at all complicated to understand, but do go ahead and whip up a long list of contrived excuses for something so simple to understand. Somethingsomething desert island somethingsomething free range somethingsomething ancestors, right?

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AbstractRaze

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#543  Edited By AbstractRaze
@kirkseven said:

If it depends on the woman to give it life, I say she has the choice of whether it lives or not.

Being forced to keep something alive.. inside of you... that's leeching off of your energy... because some people think "killing is always wrong" is a terrible way to go about it.

Nonsense, for that exist prevention, allowing such a thing is neglect, even in cases of rape, women are physically weaker than men and in order to prevent such a thing is to avoid going out with strangers or going out alone during the night, however, pregnancy doesn’t start the day that partners have sex, it can take up to six days after the intercourse for the sperm and egg to join and form a fertilized egg and there are ways to prevent such a thing during a time span of 120 hours.

Abortion should be illegal and severely punished with the death penalty, without exceptions. If the woman was kept captive over 6 to 10 day, she just had her chance to avoid it, but correlating an innocent life which didn't have anything to do with such disgrace, should not pay for it, because a fetus is even more vulnerable than a full grown/matured woman, it's just contradictory.

PS: If it happens with a teenager under 15-16 years old, then it could be considered as an exclusive situation in cases of rape, those allowing an abortion during the first and second trimester.

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helloman

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Pro choice.

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@kirkseven said:

If it depends on the woman to give it life, I say she has the choice of whether it lives or not.

Being forced to keep something alive.. inside of you... that's leeching off of your energy... because some people think "killing is always wrong" is a terrible way to go about it.

The problem with this logic is that the baby did not ask to be conceived. The baby had no choice in the matter, the woman decided to risk becoming pregnant. The unwritten contract between mother and child is "I am going to force you to become a part of my life and the world, and in return I am going to look after you." It's frankly just lazy and self serving to regard an unborn child as some parasite the mother can cut off whenever it pleases her - perhaps if she was responsible enough not to recklessly have unprotected sex she wouldn't have anything to worry about.

The woman isn't "being forced" to do anything. She by her own actions made herself pregnant, and is then assuming the position of the aggressor by killing her unborn child. The unborn child did not conceive itself. You are removing agency from grown women by treating them like innocent victims when, in 99% of abortion cases, the woman just got herself pregnant stupidly and wanted an easy way out.

The idea that if you give something life, or to put it another way, if you give someone the means to be alive, that you can morally revoke those means whenever you like and leave them to die is moral, is absolute bullshit. Oh I have this disabled child, but you know, I don't feel like looking after them so I'm just going to kill them or leave them to die. I'm the provider of resources so it's not my problem if they can't hack it on their own, right? Oh I just forcibly bred two dogs and made some puppies but you know, I don't really feel like looking after the mother or the puppies, so they should just fend for themselves, oh well the entire litter and the mother starved to death, not my fault, right?

Oh, I just knowingly let a man ejaculate inside me which tends to make women pregnant, and now I have an unborn child inside me, but since I don't feel like looking after them I'm just going to chop them out limb by limb. You go girl!

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deactivated-60fae469e992f

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Pro choice, but only for the first 8 weeks. Anything past that should be heavily illegal and punishable by jail time outside heavy circumstance, and no consequence abortion shouldn't exist

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deactivated-5da8e253e9df8

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Children are worth more than adults. No matter how you slice it.

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@i_like_swords said:
@kirkseven said:

If it depends on the woman to give it life, I say she has the choice of whether it lives or not.

Being forced to keep something alive.. inside of you... that's leeching off of your energy... because some people think "killing is always wrong" is a terrible way to go about it.

The problem with this logic is that the baby did not ask to be conceived. The baby had no choice in the matter, the woman decided to risk becoming pregnant. The unwritten contract between mother and child is "I am going to force you to become a part of my life and the world, and in return I am going to look after you." It's frankly just lazy and self serving to regard an unborn child as some parasite the mother can cut off whenever it pleases her - perhaps if she was responsible enough not to recklessly have unprotected sex she wouldn't have anything to worry about.

The woman isn't "being forced" to do anything. She by her own actions made herself pregnant, and is then assuming the position of the aggressor by killing her unborn child. The unborn child did not conceive itself. You are removing agency from grown women by treating them like innocent victims when, in 99% of abortion cases, the woman just got herself pregnant stupidly and wanted an easy way out.

My big issue with feminism other such groups that push these sorts of ideas (such as up to third term easy access abortion) want women treated like children who can't logically make their own decisions or be responsible for their actions so need to be given special treatment, which I find highly demeaning, and so does ever reasonable woman I know

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@jagernutt said:

Children are worth more than adults. No matter how you slice it.

I'm still of the opinion that over 50% of the adult population of any given country are worthless sheep that aren't even intelligent enough to vote. The state of California is a good example of this

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@jagernutt said:

Children are worth more than adults. No matter how you slice it.

I'm still of the opinion that over 50% of the adult population of any given country are worthless sheep that aren't even intelligent enough to vote. The state of California is a good example of this

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