Only 12% of Americans feel Obamacare is doing well...

@citizenbane@vance_astro

Some articles you might like on the subject:

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/11/05/insurance-companies-obamacare-scam/

http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-mh-healthplans-20131030,0,5590179.story#axzz2jES5tZ3o

http://www.salon.com/2013/10/18/inside_the_fox_news_lie_machine_i_fact_checked_sean_hannity_on_obamacare/

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/115457/obamacare-victim-florida-happy-she-can-get-real-coverage

http://www.occupydemocrats.com/watch-one-bill-maher-left-obamacare-hater-speechless-one-question/

Thought this thread died? Thought bane closed it?

Did you find this interesting? @cuddlebear since you notified my name

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/11/07/21352724-exclusive-obama-personally-apologizes-for-americans-losing-health-coverage?lite

@vaeternus: Way to miss the point as always! You are so good at it, you should apply to be a Storm Trooper!

dire, Trolling? Storm troopers? Doesnt even make sense. Theres a difference between 'point' and 'mark'. Its Funny, only one user on here goes out of his way to address me even when I ignore him, bumps old topics when im not talking to him days later like you seem to do, hmm. You Cannot be that bored but then again the patterns are similar. Youre the one that misses the point, was this topic bumped why exactly? Obama lied, deal with it. Why was he apologizing then? Do tell.

Im pretty sure theres better things to do with your time.

I hate to say it but this thread lost its purpose. Its so obvious obama lied, period. Todays apology only confirms that but to will, dire do continue to deny it. I just dont see calling me a 'star trooper' is a valid argument.

@vaeternus:

Out of his way? I was tagged just like you were. When I read your ridiculous reply, I replied. This is how Comicvine works when people properly use callouts.

When relevant information to the topic at hand is brought up, it is perfectly okay to post. A bump is when someone just posts something to move the thread to the top. Last I checked, a 4 day old thread is not dead by the way.

Sure, sure drill. I see bumping for no reason at this point and yet the guy who tagged youc you completely ignored and went for me hmmm. Yes, you find 'ridiculous' comments those facts you disagree with, not my problem. Yeah, 4 days later? Lol. Same two guys happen to bump this?

Anyone else sensing a pattern here? Incredible coincidence...

Do you deny it when the sky is blue too, because that link came from msnbc site a liberal site, but wait let me guess...made up right?

@vaeternus i can clear up the conspiracy theory! @diredrill@willpayton you two! show me some long form birth certificates

The fact that conservative media is continuing on with their misinformation campaign means the thread is still relevant, which is why I wanted to bring in new information and articles on the subject. Granted you might not be interested, but I put them up for the sake of others that might stumble across this and want full information.

I know many keep pushing the "Obama lied" thing, but it's just not the truth. What he said was that people who liked their plans could keep them, because of the grandfather rule in the ACA law. What this meant was that the law in no way stopped them from keeping those plans. It neither forced the insurance companies to get rid of them nor did it force people to get new ones (if they were grandfathered). But, of course, the ACA cant control what the companies decide to do later. If they decide to drop those plans... it couldnt stop them. If a company went out of business, it couldnt stop that. There's many scenarios where a person might find themselves not having that plan, but all of them were out of the control of the ACA and Obama.

I'll give an analogy: I tell my kids that we're going to Disneyland. They ask if they can ride the roller coasters and I say yes, they can ride whatever roller coasters they want. Then we go to Disneyland and the park has closed Space Mountain, so they cant ride it. Did I lie? No, of course not. Telling them they "can" ride whatever they want meant that they were allowed to, not that there was no possible way that they couldnt. I cant control what Disneyland does any more than Obama can control what insurance companies do.

Yes, I can understand how his words may have been misunderstood by people, but that's a long way from lying. The real lying I see going on is from the insurance companies and from people like Fox News. The evidence is right up there... just scroll up, read my links. That's what's really inexcusable here... the unethical and possibly criminal attempts to mislead customers, and the American public in general.

@cuddlebear: lol, good luck with that one. You k ow my one theory already, this is my newer one. Bet you anything one of them is correct.

So wonder what happened to the 'you can keep your health insurance, period.' Line huh?

lel

@willpayton: how are facts that even the liberal media are posting 'made up by the conservative media' exactly? I gotta hear this one.

Do you not admit obama lied to the american people? Both you and diredrill seem to be denying all of this.

Lets see here, obama quoted in 2009 saying 'you will be able to keep your insurance, period' then comes out today with an 'apólogy' for people losing their insurance, so you wont even admit when he himself admits hes wrong? Has nothing to do with fox news. They just called him out on his bs.

@vaeternus i think he should go with the daily show defense in that he actually read the punctuation in his teleprompter.

@cuddlebear: lol oh god, the teleprompter. I stilñ remember snl mocking him for that and obama taking offense to it lol. Maybe there was a glitch with the teleprompter.

If you read the articles that I linked to then you'll know exactly what I'm talking about. Media like Fox News continue to have interviews with people who either have no clue what they're talking about, or are simply lying. One "business owner" claimed that he'd have to cut hours on his employees and he wouldnt be able to grow his business because of Obamacare. However, the guy only had 4 employees, so the truth is that Obamacare has NOTHING to do with him or his business. When questioned on it he simply stopped replying to the reporter.

As far as insurance companies, they're also lying to their customers and running scams on them. This has been documented.

@willpayton: right, right you know fox interviews much of the same people on msn, cnn etc right like heraldo, colmws, juan williams etc, tons of liberals who love obama among others so they suddenly dont know what theyre talking about because they can see through obamas smoke and mirrors?

sooo whats obama apologizing for?

@cuddlebear: Are you suggesting we are the same person? Or Obama? Because Obama clearly has better things to do than debate on whether or not Scorponok falls within the limits of a tourney. It is interesting that both you and our other resident conspiracy theorist are the ones with the conspiracy theory. Guess all that Alex Jones and Glenn Beck has finally gotten in your head.

@vaeternus: No, he did not lie, big business did what big business always does. They found a way to take advantage of the system and they milked that till they got found out. Is it the fault of the President that big businesses are greedy? Nope, that is not his fault. If I tell my daughter we are going to see Yo Gabba Gabba and they cancel their concert, did I lie? I am going to tell you something that you apparently never learned in school, The President can't control everything. Was your mind just blown?

@diredrill hey mister conspiracy! we all clear on how the supreme court ruled on obamacare yet?

lol

diredrill, yes he did lie, hence his apology today...and who said anything about you being obama? If youre talking conspiracies Lol. I didnt get that from cuddles post, but hey besides youre right about one thing at least why would he waste his time on here when hes too busy making apology speeches for broken promises? ;-)

@cuddlebear: I don't remember seeing your citations so if you could provide them for me, we can clear this up.

Sometimes you have to tell your daughter that you can't go see Yo Gabba Gabba. You don't want her to hate Yo Gabba Gabba so you take the responsibility. Ultimately, that is what a real adult does when they get into a difficult situation they take responsibility. Obama acted like an adult. I know that it is uncommon of politicians but it happens sometimes.

@cuddlebear: we shall see if your question actually gets an answer.

i don't do citations, ok professor alex jones? why don't you learn about the supreme court ruling on obamacare? until then you are just another conspiracy theorist :)

@cuddlebear: Burden of Proof, you make a claim, you provide proof. This is how things work.

He's sorry that some people thought he was giving them absolute assurances that they could not in any way, ever, lose their shitty plans that cover nothing. He wasnt trying to say that to begin with, and the words he used were obviously not clear enough, hence he's sorry for that.

I think he's right to apologize because he should have known that many people, especially those on the right that take any opportunity (real or made up) to attack him, would later be twisting his words like they are now. He should have been more clear and precise. But, he wasnt lying. As I already pointed out in my example, if you tell someone that they can do something, it doesnt mean that they can absolutely do it later, it only means that you are giving them permission to do it.

Another example: You are in school and you ask your teacher if you can go to the bathroom. She says yes, you can go. But, when you get there the bathroom is closed for repairs. Was your teacher lying? That's not a rhetorical question, please answer. Was she lying when she told you that "you can go to the bathroom"?

@cuddlebear: lol alex jones, the youtube guy?

or ya know you are just ignorant of supreme court rulings. go learn on your own, i don't want to enable this kind of ignorance

yeah he is a goof. makes a good point here and there though. another guy on the liberals blacklist. such a tolerant bunch.

LOL... Alex Jones is a nutcase. Not sure if he believes all the b.s. he spouts or not, but he's off the rails in any case.

Yeah, I've just heard about him but never really watched or listened to him. I have heard people say Alex Jones is the alternate universe version of Michael Moore lol. Ever hear of Mike Savage? He's less known then the other conservative talk guys and liberal talk guys on msn etc but I think he's made some interesting points after reading a little about him on some things.

he is repititive like alot of media hacks. is he nutty yes. are the points he makes nutty yes. is everything he says nutty? no. i like that he is out there at least questioning the media from a different perspective. if we let the establishment define the terms of how we question them we are basically living by the sharron angle principle. (we want the media to ask the question that we want them to ask) if there is one thing i can be optimistic about (it damn sure aint the republicans or democrats) it is the democratization of media and entertainment... but i don't think the left will be happy about it seeing as they dominate it currently.

on your little obamacare defense i know that is what the left talking heads are pushing as an explanation but it is not going to work. ya know o'reily (i hate him) "the spin stops here" your analogies and statistics are not going to matter anymore THIS IS POLICY NOW like i have been saying this is no longer some abstract great thing on the way. its here. you said the republicans have been trying to stop it because it is going to be so great. well we are going to find out about it now.

i will humor you though, liberals and these analogies SMH...

You are in school and you ask your teacher if you can go to the bathroom. She says yes, you can go. But, when you get there the bathroom is closed for repairs. Was your teacher lying? That's not a rhetorical question, please answer. Was she lying when she told you that "you can go to the bathroom"?

i don't know mr. payton, caaaaaaan you go to the bathroom?

Yes, we will find out how Obamacare pans out. That's what I said from the beginning. I think in the end people and the entire country will benefit from it. Will some lose their current policies because the insurance companies are greedy? Yes. But, what have they lost? Most of those policies are worthless... and I actually mean they arent worth anything. People would be better off saving their $50/month (or whatever) instead of having those policies that cover nothing.

I dont have a problem with Alex Jones being on the air and saying what he wants. The problem is when people take him seriously, which they do a lot. Also, he's not comparable to the people on MSNBC. That's a false analogy. Alex Jones is on the nutty lunatic fringe of the paranoid right. You may disagree with those on MSNBC (and I do as well on occasion... does that shock you?), but they dont actively lie and put out ridiculous statements that are totally unhinged from reality.

You didnt answer the question.

But, that's ok, I'll answer it for you. The word "can" has two meanings... "to be able to" and "to be allowed to". Obama was obviously referring to the latter, since he cant control what happens in the future.

But whatever, think what you want. I'm not regurgitating any Democrat talking points, I'm just calling it like I see it. I've disagreed with Obama and criticized him on plenty of issues. If you want to see my position on this issue as me simply agreeing with him because I'm biased for him or the Dems, then go ahead and think that. But, that's simply not the case. I'm looking at both sides here, and while I see Obama as having made a mistake in the messaging of the ACA, I also see the Republicans as attacking it for the same reason as always... because they hate Obama and anything he does is bad in their minds.

@willpayton: Yes, we will find out how Obamacare pans out. That's what I said from the beginning. I think in the end people and the entire country will benefit from it. Will some lose their current policies because the insurance companies are greedy? Yes. But, what have they lost? Most of those policies are worthless... and I actually mean they arent worth anything. People would be better off saving their $50/month (or whatever) instead of having those policies that cover nothing.

But, that's ok, I'll answer it for you. The word "can" has two meanings... "to be able to" and "to be allowed to". Obama was obviously referring to the latter, since he cant control what happens in the future.

While I agree that the five million who have lost their policies so far have lost them due to the "greediness" of the insurance companies I wonder if you really think that Obama (as a left progressive) was unaware that that was how they (insurance companies) would react? Even I as just an average Joe saw that coming from a mile away. Call it evil if you like, but it is basically the way the free market works. So either Obama is merely uninformed and incompetent or he knew exactly what was going to happen and purposefully misled the American people so the ACA would pass and so eventually he could be re-elected.

I wonder if the American people (despite their gullibility) knowing what they know now would have still supported the ACA (even though it was basically passed clandestinely and on what amount of good will Obama still had left) then and whether Obama would have been re-elected.

And your statements concerning the quality of what insurance people have lost is as presumptive and premature as all the hand wringing going on concerning the ACA itself. It also smacks of MSNBC and Obama Admin talking points.

It remains that (at this moment at least) a law which was specifically purposed to move folks from a state of uninsured to insured as now been the interia for causing five million and counting from a state of insured o uninsured.

But that is what happens to progress when it is administered by the greatest bureaucracy the world has ever seen.

EDIT - And by greatest I mean most ponderous.

you will not "be allowed to keep" your insurance that does not meet his standards. as far as the rest of it i guess we will have to agree to disagree, all predictions at this point anyways. oh except the part about you not being a democrat...... i got it! you are katherine sebelius! ;)

These are good articles (even if they come mostly from left leaning sources =P ).

Good food for thought. Thanks for taking the time to post them.

@cuddlebear: I hear ya.

@ Willpayton, you see the problem with the "teacher allowing the kid to go to the bathroom" analogy is this, the teacher should KNOW better or be notified IF they're "working on the bathrooms" thus don't send the students out, in other words they should know prior(as most teachers know) example when I was in high school way back, I distinctly remember the teachers being aware or not if the bathrooms were closed, worked on or open....

They wouldn't just send a kid out like "here go to the bathroom" only for the kid to find out it's closed...the teacher should have known better, plus teachers hate sending kids out and them missing class unless it's an emergency....

So I'd say Obama is the teacher here that knew about the bathroom being closed, or in this case knowing folks would LOSE their coverage due to Obamacare...

@cuddlebear: Guess you can't find the information. It is okay, you guys never cease to concede points.

I guess you took no time to read any of the links. As you seem to think I am a professor, I'll give you some homework I know you'll never do. Tell me what a Junk Plan is and how much coverage it provides. Then tell me how it is any better than being uninsured.

Now tell me what a Model T is? Would you drive a Model T in modern traffic? Why not? Assume it is worth nothing. When you inevitably tell me that it would be horribly unsafe, I'll accept your concession.

let me know when your clear on a supreme court ruling. they keep records on them i think.

@cuddlebear: When you understand how burden of proof works, then we can get going. See, you make a claim, you provide the proof. Much as I expected, you are incapable of doing so. If the information is there you should have no problem finding it. They keep records on them I think.

Who would have thought that someone who was incapable of substantiating a claim would also fail to answer simple reading questions? Does Inforwars not provide the answers on this one?

i made no claim when you understand what a claim is then we can get going. who would have thought someone touting obamacare would not know about the SC ruling on it. did you not know about the SC ruling because you just started reading and copying and pasting salon and huffington a few months ago?

@bogey watch out they don't enjoy jokes. they will start linking you pamphlets to read

Can anyone here say the the concept of the affordable care act is a bad thing? I know it's far from perfect but i don't see how helping out the less fortunate is a bad thing. Insurance isn't provided by some benevolent corporations out to help the masses; they're a bunch of greedy bastards that want to milk you out of as much as they can get while providing the minimal amount of coverage that allows them to reap obscene profits.

If you can't afford insurance or if you have a pre-existing condition you're isht out of luck, but the the affordable care act is putting the pressure on these companies to either change their practices or risk losing losing their customers.

I've yet to see any republican tell the entire truth on the matter, they just cherry pick the talking points that help them sow fear into their constituents. Yeah, Americans are losing their coverage as a result of this act but they don't harp on the fact that it's a result of greedy corporations out to increase their profit margins; and yeah people will get fined if they don't get coverage, but they don't tell you that people without insurance have an adverse effect on health care costs for the masses.

They show you the cost for the bronze plan and tell you that poor people won't be able to afford it but they neglect to mention that those same people will be granted subsidies that will allow many the chance to have health coverage for the first time in their lives.

If you're asking me to speculate as to whether Obama can see the future, I'm going to say he cant. If you're asking me what Obama thought would happen, then my answer is that I dont know. What I can say is that the grandfather rule exists in the ACA. It was put there specifically so that policies that existed before the ACA, and didnt meet the requirements, could continue to exist without change. How does this not show the intent of those who wrote it?

I dont see why most Americans would not continue to support the ACA and Obama considering those who are negatively affected by the actions of the insurance companies is a very small percentage. Consider, many of those who lose these substandard policies will be able to receive subsidies under the ACA, or even qualify for Medicaid.

I'm basing that judgement on the articles that I've read, plus my own experiences in shopping for insurance after I was laid off from my last job. What I found was that any decent policy would cost me at least $200/month. Anything below $100/month was total garbage.

Like I said, I believe many of those who lose their policies will qualify for subsidies or Medicaid. But, yes, there will be some who lose these policies and wont qualify for those. To that I simply ask, why dont we direct our anger at the insurance companies who are dropping those policies purely out of greed?

Sure, we can direct some of that anger at the administration if we want. But, how much of that is overblown and instigated by the conservative media, who seem to have no problem with millions of people not being able to afford insurance in the first place without the ACA? So, they now care about people losing insurance, but didnt care before about many more never getting it in the first place? How about all those before the ACA who had it and then were dropped anyway? How about all those who had pre-existing conditions? Where were those same conservative media pundits and politicians then? To use your words, it smacks of politics and the never-ending attacks on Obama that I've seen from day-one. Remember "Death Panels"?

Thank you!!

Excellent points.

There's plenty to criticize in the website rollout, and even in the ACA program itself. I've said many times... it's not at all what I would have wanted. It was a conservative idea in the first place, and in the end it was a compromise. I would have much, much preferred a single-payer universal insurance program funded by taxes (which is what the Dems actually wanted). Basically, just expand Medicaid to everyone. Done! The benefits from improved efficiency alone would make it a winner... never mind the benefits to businesses, and everyone else in the country.

But, while there's plenty to legitimately criticize, instead what do the conservatives spend their time doing? They spend their time lying and blowing stuff out of proportion. The list of lies and outright unethical tactics used to try to torpedo the ACA is long indeed... from "death panels" to the current tactic of trotting out people who claim they'll be negatively affected by the ACA who in fact will not be. Hmm, you'd think if there's so many millions of people who will lose their insurance... that it'd be easy to find just a few legitimate ones to interview? So why is it so difficult for Fox News to find people who arent either totally clueless or are outright lying?

@bogey: lmao, good one. So true.

@willpayton: Sure, we can direct some of that anger at the administration if we want. But, how much of that is overblown and instigated by the conservative media, who seem to have no problem with millions of people not being able to afford insurance in the first place without the ACA? So, they now care about people losing insurance, but didnt care before about many more never getting it in the first place? How about all those before the ACA who had it and then were dropped anyway? How about all those who had pre-existing conditions? Where were those same conservative media pundits and politicians then? To use your words, it smacks of politics and the never-ending attacks on Obama that I've seen from day-one. Remember "Death Panels"?

Very good point. But as you know I am equally unimpressed by pretty much all politicians whether they are on the left or the right. To my mind they are vampires who only care for themselves.

And speaking of vampires, the media is no longer unbiased. Honestly I am not certain that it ever really was. Anyone who doesn't watch all of it and then juxtapose it against itself and against other sources which are somewhat independent of corporate influence is not doing themselves any favors.

I can say that I personally support the effort to re-vamp the health care status quo and to regulate the industry. I am not sure if the federal government is the most efficient entity to make that happen as an overhaul. But that being said, I am also not certain who else could do it.

So here we are in a sort of birth pangs situation.

@edamame said:

@bogey said:

lol

That is funny