Knightfall discussion

@wolfrazer:

Eh, it is easy to dominate someone martially when you're a product of their own nightmares. I am not sure we can take that as proof of improvement just yet.

I mainly think the prince may be a better fighter because he seems to have been out in the wider world this whole time. Actually getting things done and getting his hands dirty. Phillip was taught by Landry but he only ever practiced the sword as a sport or hobby. As king he likely doesn't think he may actually need to defend himself in a life or death situation. His son may be more martially inclined because he actually does need to defend himself on the road and may have fought in wars in the king's stead.

We'll just have to see. He seems more loyal to his mother than his father, and I am sure that will play a role in the future. He also doesn't get along with de Nogaret and views him as a servant. But Isabella seems to adore him. We'll see how this little... Loyalty/love triangle? Plays out.

Oh! Almost forgot. Loved seeing that Mordhau during the nightmare sequence. Good on you, Landry.

@metaljimmor: I could see that yeah, guess we'll have to see. Also a few accolades being thrown around for a few of the characters, always nice.

I'm not too sure I like De Nogaret's appearance this go around however, I liked how he looked in S1, but it might grow on me. King Philip rocks that beard look though.

Seems next episode takes place around F13th, when the whole shebang happens with the Templars, looks like a big battle is shaping up!

@metaljimmor: @paragonnate: Yooooo that 2nd episode!

....Landry is getting some nice strength, able to hold 5 men on his shoulders. Nice feat for Gwain too, wrecking 4 Swiss guards. The Satan Worshipers have arrived!

I was kinda surprised at the ending....kinda wonder what sort of ramifications are gonna happen. Seems Isabella is getting to marry Edward over in England, the Prince is collecting babies.

@wolfrazer:

I am more confident now that the prince is a capable fighter, unlike his father. He's definitely killed before based on how he acts.

Looks like de Nogaret finally got his revenge. It'll be interesting to see how that plays out.

@metaljimmor: Seems so, I wanna see the Prince fighting tho. Also he and his cohorts be wearing Templar garb, that'll be good to slander the Order.

Although yeah De Nogaret got his revenge it's just....I mean the guy killed the Pope.

I mean I get CIS wasn't around at the time and investigation into someone's death and finding the perp was like a needle and a haystack. But the last place the guy was, is a good place to start, there's certainly gonna be questions and probable show of force at some point. Unless they spin it somehow, which given De Nogaret probably.

@wolfrazer:

Honestly the Pope was way too easy to kill. A small handful of guards and literally nobody else within earshot? Nobody to raise an alarm?

Dang. A group of 5-6 guys could just walk in and kill the most important man on the continent and nobody would be the wiser.

@metaljimmor: I did find it a tad bit odd, but then there could have been more guards we just didn't see and those last 4 were the last of em. Although I'm not too sure about 5 or 6 random nobodies. Gwain is just a beast.

@wolfrazer:

Looks like I called it! The Prince is definitely a better fighter that his father. Just a shame he isn't so good with his other sword.

@metaljimmor: Mmm...not too sure on just one duel, but it seems to be that way. Also yeah, poor Prince, he actually would seem like a swell guy if not for killing babies, well and other things, least he loves his wife and she in turn.

Also man, Landry just keeps getting them feats, taking on a whole Lucifarian camp of battle hardened warriors with no armor.

Mark is killing it as Talus.

Although what struck me as a bit odd is that it's noted that the Initiates with Landry were once Knights before arriving to the Order....yet one of them can't seem to ride a horse? Just seems a little strange.

@wolfrazer:

Yah, that makes no sense. You don't get to be a knight and not know basic horsemanship. It is kind of the main point of the job.

@metaljimmor: Still all in all a pretty good episode despite that one annoying issue. I mean I suppose he was meaning with the way Templars rode them, as Talus seem to prop it up as riding as a Templar is much different than a regular Knight.

If not, then yeah that's just bizarre.

Still tho, some nice accolades, we know for sure Templar Knights >> Knights now.

I mean granted that's probably obvious, but to have them say it is pretty good too.

Also we see purple clothing! Yay!

@metaljimmor: AHHHHHHHHHH! New Order introduced! The Lazarus Order! This episode was great, I like and hate the Prince at the same time...I dig his character. Also it seems that Templar training pays off, as the newly minted Templar Knights did pretty well against the French soldiers if not outright dominated em.

I hope we see more of the Lazarus Order and perhaps others too. I hope Talus isn't truly gone for long, Mark plays him really well.

@wolfrazer:

The Leper Knights were really interesting. I do hope we see them again.

This episode does raise a valid point. Maybe you shouldn't have the heir apparent be the one personally going door to door to kill babies? People might just remember that face.

@metaljimmor: Most likely yeah, at the least cover your face, especially if you're a well known noble.

Hm, hm....still though, where would you rate the Knightfall characters as combatants?

@wolfrazer:

Landry is pretty up there by live action historical/Medieval fantasy standards. I'd need to review his feats. If we're using GoT characters as a baseline he doesn't have anything on the level of say, Barristan Selmy killing a dozen Harpies without armor or Arthur Dayne taking on a whole squad of armored enemies at once, but I think he is comfortably comparable to the Hound who can take on five combatants at the same time.

@metaljimmor: Well meaning like compared to others within the show. I think I'd put em like this.

1. Gwain/Landry

2. Tancrede

3. Talus

4. Prince Louis

5. Godfrey

6. Gabriel

7. The Initiates(can't really remember their names tbh)

8. Philip?

Though yeah, on an overall scale I can see some of them being quite great.

@wolfrazer:

Ah, I see. Honestly it is hard to say. We've only really seen Landry vs Gawain, Landry vs Philip, and a brief Philip vs Louis. I'd want to see Louis fight Landry, Gawain, or perhaps Tancred to get a good gauge on him, but right now Philip being at the bottom makes sense. He may be better than some of the initiates but it is hard to say.

@metaljimmor: I dunno, the Intiates were all former Knights then + Templar training which would elevate their skills even more. So they seem to have a better standing than Philip.

There also was the Gwain vs Tancrede fight too. Abit I might put Gabriel a tier lower, but given Landry mentioned he fought with him in the Crusades presumably I figured that's a nice placement.

Oh I also forgot Draper, I'd probably put him above Gabriel.

@wolfrazer:

They were, but you wouldn't know what watching them fight. They acted like peasant boys that have never touched a sword before.

@metaljimmor: I guess we'll have to see more of them.

@paragonnate Oi, you still on this?

@wolfrazer: Haven't caught up yet, RL has been hectic lately, have everything recorded though. Have tomorrow off so I'll likely be caught up in the next few days.

@paragonnate: Sweet! It's getting good!

@metaljimmor: Ooooooh snap! Man that episode! Seems it's confirmed that Prince Louie is def below Landry. Also Landry most definitely crossbow bolt timed twice, the second time was really impressive. He also keeps getting some good pain tolerance/endurance feats.

Also seems the Prince found out the truth, man that's gotta suck...and what's worse, he's definitely going to hell after what he's done...a shame that and all he wanted to do was to avenge his mother. Kinda wonder how it's gonna go down between the Prince and his wife later on, even moreso between Philip and Louie.

Also King Philip's "I AM THE STATE!" line was just great. XD

I'm not big on the new Pope, which I guess is to be expected.

Also it occurs to me that King Philip in the previous episode, sent Man At Arms + Gwain to the Lazarus Temple. Which is kind of stupid on his part, because if I'm recalling correctly....regular Knights > Man At Arms and Templar Knights > Knights > Man At Arms. ...I mean were there no other Blood Knights to call upon? Or hell just other true Knights? That certainly would have been better than sending Man At Arms + A former Templar. I mean yeah, some Man At Arms could be Knights but this wasn't normal.

But I digress. Seems they're playing up the accusations of devil worship, should be interesting.

@wolfrazer:

It is worth remembering that Louie was badly hurt in the second fight. He definitely seemed pretty competent. At least better than his dad.

I also loved how he was dual wielding a warhammer with his sword. Very unorthodox but still effective tactic.

Did Louie's wife commit suicide by drowning? That seems to be what she did but I might have missed her in a later scene.

@metaljimmor: Hmm...actually she might have yeah. Don't recall seeing her later on....well that'll certainly be something for Louie to come back to if it's true.

Also sure Louie was wounded, but so was Landry had he had taken a harsh blow to the head by one of Louie's men on a horse. Or just straight up ran over by said horse, plus Louie did kinda fix himself with sealing the wound. Still in their second encounter, both didn't seem to be all that well off compared to the first one.

But yeah that duel wielding was nice, also a good accuracy feat for Landry with the crossbow.

Also woohoo! Gunpowder has taken the field!

@wolfrazer:

Eeeeh, blow to the head that he got up from pretty fast. Louie had a crossbow bolt go right through his body, lost a lot of blood hauling himself to safety, and then had to endure burning the wound shut. Normal men would likely have passed out from the pain, but then he goes to fight Landry anyway.

I do like that we're seeing some gunpowder. Most fictions just kind of pretend gunpowder wasn't invented until some time in the 1600s. lol

@metaljimmor: Well Landry has taken a lot of punishment and it seems to be a reoccurring theme that Templars can take bodily punishment and keep going. ...Although yeah that doesn't seem to help my point lol. Still though, yeah I guess Louie is a least better than his father who had trouble with a much worse of Landry at the end of S1.

Yeah, kinda wondering if we'll see early versions of cannons or they'll just be using it as more like explosive charges. Hoping both, seeing as they seem to have enough to take down the walls of a castle which isn't an easy feat.

@paragonnate You catching up?

@metaljimmor: Dang cliffhangers!

That episode tho, pretty awesome. Seems Philip really hasn't gotten any better, which is kinda strange since he was getting into the thick of things and wanted Landry's head, you'd think he would have trained more, got the piss beaten out of him and had to be saved by Louie from behind. Also one thing, but I never got how Pope Boniface had such a snake for a Bishop...alas that seems to be so. Poor Grandmaster.

The battle was pretty interesting, nice to see it wasn't just a huge mass of French troops charging the castle walls.

One of the Initiates was duel wielding I noticed and they used teamwork pretty well too...I gotta start remembering their names.

I'm also trying to figure out what Princess Isabella is trying to do...apart from being a whore anyway.

Still...hate them cliffhangers, I wanna know what happens! I also wanna see Talus again.

@wolfrazer:

Phillip strikes me as the sort who doesn't believe he has to train. He has incredible power already, and he went into that battle on a horse stabbing infantrymen. When Landry knocked him off his high horse Phillip was screwed.

Yah, Isabella is really confusing me. What could she possibly gain from date raping Louie's wife? Is she trying to get her knocked up with a stranger's bastard and pass it off as the next prince? But why?! I already didn't much like her from her sacrificing her old betrothed the way she did, but now she's basically a reprehensible monster.

Unfortunately I stayed on the channel about 10 seconds too long and immediately got the cliffhanger spoiled for me. lol

@metaljimmor: Well that sucks. XD

Also yeah I suppose that's true about Philip...nice joke....that was so bad it was funny.

Isabella is quite the confusing and messed up character, I think she's worse than Philip at this point...or maybe like a close second. Louie is just a victim of being manipulated, I don't think he'd really have done what he did if he knew the truth about his mother beforehand, so I'm not really putting him in the same boat.

Seems to me everyone is going to Hell in this show lol, apart from...Talus and the Initiates it seems. Tancrede too I suppose.

@wolfrazer:

Well, she IS known as the She-Wolf of France historically. Often written as cruel, manipulate, and intelligent. I'm just... Missing the intelligent part so far.

Eh, Louie was lied to, but that doesn't excuse going around murdering innocent babies all across France. You can't do that and still call yourself a good person, even if you don't know the full context for why this particular baby needs to die. Hell, murdering the baby for revenge is messed up even if Landry was the one who killed his mom.

@metaljimmor: I suppose that's true, I mean either way Louie is going to Hell at this point. But perhaps he would have been less of an ass at least. As far as Isabella I'm sure it'll be explained, I mean they can't be spending all this time for this sub plot and not have it go nowhere.

Also saw the promo for the next episode....I'm thinking Louie might free Landry given how he's talking with his wife and of course what Philip did to his mother. So...something of a bit of a redemption from Louie I'm thinking.

@metaljimmor:

Man....that episode was painful to watch. I mean damn, I just don't know what to really say. RIP Temple Grandmaster and the others.

Seems Gwaian has turned himself around at like...the last possible moment, hell even tried to kill King Philip.

Also come on Prince Louie do something! You're just taking all these lies and just....not doing anything when you know what you should be doing!

Also man Tancrede went through some brutal torture, yeah as Paragon said, Templars being extremely tough is a rule it seems.

Seems we found out why Isabella did what she did, because Margaret patronized her(well in Isabella's words) and other things. Or at least part of the reason why.

Also it seems we now know why Kelton said he couldn't ride a horse, because he wasn't a former Knight. Makes sense. ....Sucks what happened to him, killed by an angry mob.

@paragonnate You caught up yet btw?

@wolfrazer: wrapped up season 1, making my way through season 2

@paragonnate: Neat!

@wolfrazer:

This was, in fact, an unlucky day.

Not even Gawaiin can bring himself to murder an innocent child. I am glad he has some moral limits left.

Looks like they are gonna play up Isabella's She-Wolf reputation big time. I feel so bad for Louie. His family is insane.

Overall this was probably the best episode of the show so far. Desperate and haunting by the end of it. They did such an infamous night well.

@metaljimmor: For sure the best, just done really well. Curious to see what else happens.

Yeah Gawain has been an interesting character, kind of touching that despite everything, Landry sees him as a brother. The prayer scene was great.

For sure Louie’s family is crazy, poor Margret too.

Also Talus is back for the finale whoohoo! Feel like it’ll be his last.

@wolfrazer:

Most likely. He is the old mentor figure. It is only natural he dies.

@metaljimmor: Better screen time than TLJ. XD

Hmm, just realized they could go pretty far with Knightfall if done right as there’s still a whole lot to cover regarding the Order even after F13th. Plus they could throw in some legend elements too.

@metaljimmor: ....Oh man...that was a great finale episode to Season 2. Tancrede nooo! :(

Also Talus just...wow ok, Talus definitely is in the Top 3 category of fighters in this show. He just wrecked what...half a dozen armored men? I probably put him above Tancrede now.

Poor Louie, he lost his wife, he really did love her. If it really weren't for killing the babies and innocent people, he would have been a swell guy. ....Or at least not much of an ass, because most of his anger really just revolved around wanting the well being of his wife, he'd kill for her.

There's def setup for a S3, we'll probably get to see England since Isabella is going over there.

I also gotta say, I like how they all keep fighting despite the grievous torture they went through and yet they still kick ****. That's some great willpower/endurance.

@wolfrazer:

My only complaint is how Landry just kind of teleported off the boat and into the palace, but I'd be lying if I said it wasn't so incredibly satisfying to see Louie and D'Nogaret abandon Philip at the last moment and to see Landry absolutely dominate. The final fencing lesson between master and student. Shame Philip won't live to learn from it.

I was sad to see Tancred go. I am kind of glad we had a big name death from all this, but he was definitely one of my favorites.

I loved Philip's talk to Isabella. The beginnings of the She-Wolf.

Talus I think is easily the best in the show. It was off-screen, but taking on so many fully armored enemies completely solo, without armor of his own? Far and away the best feat so far.

@metaljimmor: I did find it odd too that Landry just up and showed outta nowhere, was kinda funny lol. Still the last fight was pretty nice, a bit I was kinda hoping Philip would have been better at this point...but guess not. Kinda wondering if he can beat anyone, seeing as he can't handle Landry who was tortured, starving and tired.

Yeah, Isabella is certainly shaping up nicely, if they do a S3 kinda wonder how she'll react of her father's death.

I honestly thought Gwaian was gonna die. Still I'm kinda wondering if he'll bounce back from his leg injury again.

I wouldn't say Talus didn't have armor, he looked like he had his Templar garb on. Although yeah it's still impressive for sure, he probably is the best on the show. But I still kinda feel that is Gwaian's title, as even behind the scenes he is noted as the Order's best swordsman.

Although Talus does have some nice accolades and feats to his name too. Hmm...maybe a tie between them.

@wolfrazer:

I feel it is worth remembering that Talus was pretty much retired from active field duty when we meet him. Gawain may be the best swordsman in the Order who was an active warrior rather than just a trainer. Then again we've never really seen Gawain at his best. Even with a leg brace that wouldn't be him at his full strength.

I wonder what happens next for Landry. This really feels like the end of his story. All that is left is to retire from the Templars now that he's ended the threat of Philip that he made and become a father.

@metaljimmor: That's also true, perhaps then Talus is the best out of all the active and non-active. With Gawain just being the best out of the active ones.

I mean they still can continue on, they still gotta resolve the whole issue with the scroll in the Grail thing from S1. If there does become a S3, they could introduce England and with Isabella and her...well father like tendencies, she could still make hell for the remaining Templars throughout Europe.

@paragonnate Where you at here?

@wolfrazer:

True. I suppose Landry does have whatever his mom whispered in the Pope's ear going for him. I forgot about most of the Grail stuff to be honest.

@metaljimmor: Yeah, really took a back seat lol. But then just as well I suppose, the fall of the Order was far more entertaining. Although without a romance subplot, maybe if reintroducing the Grail in some form it'll be a bit more interesting.

@wolfrazer: Almost, likely going to be caught up by next episode

@paragonnate: Sweet, be sure to give a full detailed analysis!