Knightfall discussion

@paragonnate: Though sadly I'm not sure we will see Philip do any actual fighting given where he is and his standing, but it's possible I suppose, especially if he finds out what happened between Landry and Joan he might try to actually kill Landry himself, or someone tries to assassinate him. Also true, which is another thing I'm a little weirded about with Parsinfal, I mean the guy was just a farmer, not even a knight so it's strange cause Templars were basically a special forces group...though he really does stand out with not having facial hair haha.

He is, I think it's creepier when Isabella said that she once had thoughts of marrying him too.

@paragonnate: Sweet, also love Landry just going "no" and Philip just giving a sigh like that lol.

@wolfrazer: Yeah, it woudn't be a good idea for the king of one of the most powerful nations in Europe to go running off and potentially getting killed. Eh, Templars took on plenty of trainees and lay brothers during their time, being a knight was good, but not all members were full knights, simply wouldn't be enough people to run the Order if they stuck to strictly knights.

Eh, that didn't weird me out as much, she said she thought stuff like that when she was younger, and she's only in her mid teens now. Children think all sorts of strange things. Hell I remember thinking things that weren't that different when I was little.

@paragonnate: True, though I would think a good portion for the more combat oriented would be knights. But I suppose that's fair anyway.

Also true, children are a lil weird at times.

Lol yeah. Also love the difference in their postures and forms. Phillip's off hand is flailing around wildly and his feet are significantly farther apart, amateurish, while Landry's hand is held tight to his hip, and his posture is tighter, more controlled and experienced.

@paragonnate: Kinda wondering how late or early Philip is with his training, don't think they've ever specified. That smooth disarm though by Landry, such casualness.

@wolfrazer: True, though I would think a good portion for the more combat oriented would be knights. But I suppose that's fair anyway.

Yeah, the full knights and Templars would be the guys in white with the red crosses. The guys in black would be both initiates and lay brothers, some might be knights but most wouldn't be, they'd serve the Order sometimes in combat, other times doing things like we saw Parsifal doing, cleaning up and handing out bread etc.

@paragonnate: I mean Parsifal would do well as more doing the latter of sort, but he seems to want to get straight to the fighting and swords, all that noise. I feel like that's gonna get him killed because he seems to be only doing it for the death of his wife, which is fair but I feel like that's gonna gimp him.

Couldn't be more than a few years I would think. 15 years since they lost Acre, maybe a few more years of settling down into France, then eventually saving Phillip and his wife from bandits, definitely longer than he's been sleeping with Joan that's for certain.

Eh, it's likely that the Order gets a good number of recruits like that, pretty sure they know how best to turn that attitude into something less suicidal and constructive. Either by wearing him out with work and training so he doesn't have time to think or one of the more experienced knights like Gawain or Tancrede managing to talk sense into him.

@paragonnate: I was thinking a few years, but wasn't too sure. It sounds right anyway, there also was this scene too from the first episode.

Landry did say he did improve.

@paragonnate: Well Gawain seems a little bit unhinged, so not too sure he would be right for that...Tancrede I could see though.

@wolfrazer: We need to get our ears checked man. Phillip flat out said it in the training clip and we didn't notice. "Landry two years ago you saved my wife and me."

So Phillip has been training for less than that and the affair has been going on about the same amount of time, likely less.

@paragonnate: Ah dangit you're right! XD

Still though in less than 2 years, Philip has shown some nice skill in the two instances of training we see. Of course though compared to Landry he might as well be a novice. I notice he has a more fencingish style in the second compared to the first time.

@wolfrazer: It's likely the beards have something to do with it. All the Templars must have them for a reason after all. And Phillip doesn't, that's why he keeps losing.

From what I'm seeing of Landry so far, I'd put him ahead of most Vikings characters with a blade. That casual disarming of Phillip, and the way that he did it with the sword under the arm and the twist, just impresses me immensely. Seriously, I can't think of a single thing that a Vikings character has done that's comparable. I mean Ragnar disarmed Athelstan once I think, but not like that. Also, the actor deserves a round of applause for all of the effort he's clearly putting into the role.

@paragonnate: For real that smooth disarm and in the other training video Landry looked like he disarmed Philip using the flat part of his blade and guard which sent Philip's blade across the floor. I think I've seen that actor before, but I can't quite place down where I've seen him. I know Simon Merrells from Spartacus, but Landry I'm not too sure. I think all the actors are doing a pretty good job.

@wolfrazer: Could have sworn Landry was from Spartacus as well, though I could be wrong.

Yeah they're all doing good, we've just seen more from Landry at this point.

@wolfrazer:

Man, that disarm. So fluid and efficient. It's a great showing for Landry that he can pretty much disarm the king on command. He doesn't even need an opening for it.

Unsure how I feel about miracles being a confirmed thing. But I guess we don't really know first hand that his recovery was due to God or just good fortune.

I surprisingly like the Pope as well. I know he has his own motives, but he pulls off the grandfatherly role really well and the show hasn't painted him as a mustache twirling villain yet.

I feel kind of bad for Nogaret. He acts like he is this show's Littlefinger but every single scheme he has hatched went horribly wrong. Seemingly because he vastly underestimates extremely powerful people and overestimates assassins. If it were as easy as handing a man a bag of gold and saying "Kill the Pope/Prince/Jews" then everyone would do it. Political intrigue takes a lot more tact and restraint than he's shown thus far.

I am not really enjoying the Joan subplot so far. It makes it far harder to like Landry than it should be for me to like an honorable knight character. King Phillip might not be a great guy but he thinks the world of Landry and I can't help but feel sorry for him. Especially when he's giving the world's most heartfelt toast to his closest friend who just knocked up his wife.

Also. The dance floor is NOT a safe and private place to have a deeply personal and treasonous discussion that could get both parties killed if the wrong person heard it.

@metaljimmor: The Joan subplot is kinda “meh” I’ll agree but it has it’s moments when King Phillip is involved as he’s trying to make things work between them.

I can only imagine what he’ll do if he finds out, or when he does.

@wolfrazer:

King Phillip is trying so hard for her. Joan is treating him like he's a Joffrey tier villain but all we've seen is that he's a generally well meaning ruler who has a slight anger problem. Her story about the minstrel isn't even necessarily King Phillip's handywork as far as she knows. The minstrel could have just slept with someone else's wife and got beaten up in response.

I'm sure they'll ramp up his monster factor eventually. Joan's story was clearly an attempt to make us see him as a bad guy so that we as the audience feel more comfortable with her cheating on him. The show just isn't doing the best job of it.

@metaljimmor: Yeah I'm not really sure this whole distancing between Philip and Joan, with how Philip is portrayed and what he says to Landry...he's given her stuff, gifts and sweet words and yet she....doesn't want anything to do with him? If anything she's the one that's driving a wedge between the two not him.

But yeah, I guess he'll become more of a bad dude though I hope not too soon. I like his relationship with Landry, so I wanna see that go on for a little bit longer.

That fight between Tancrede and the Saracen tho, was pretty nice and yay chainmail armor works!

@wolfrazer: @metaljimmor: Phillip does seem to have some issues with controlling his anger once something starts rubbing him the wrong way. He yelled at Isabella for disagreeing with him after all. Granted that was in relative privacy and he is her father and it's likely not unusual for the time period but still. He is the king if he ever got angry in the same way at another group of people *cough* Templars *cough* there's almost no limit to what he could do.

@paragonnate: True I could see his anger being a big point for his character where it just ends up boiling over at some point, of course being a king wouldn't help with trying to control it, that's stressful as it is.

@wolfrazer: The stress, and the absolute authority to do whatever he wants, to whoever he wants. Not a good combo, like Joffrey showed us.

@paragonnate: Plus a scumbag adviser...

@paragonnate: @paragonnate:

I am not entirely sure if citing the actual history of the Templars is a spoiler or not, so I'll use spoilers just in case.

But Phillip is set to eradicate the Templar Order in about a year. Battle of Acre is in 1291. 15 years later we get 1305. Jews get expelled in 1306, which I assume is the event episode 1 was showing us, and Phillip later takes out the Templars in 1307, both acts to expunge himself of paralyzing debt to the two parties as far as historical records tell us.

I have no doubt this Phillip is going to be a main villain eventually. His anger issues combined with Landry's dickery and Nozaret whispering in his ear about debts seem like they are setting him up early. It still doesn't make me feel any better about how everyone is treating him NOW before this happens, though.

@wolfrazer: Been thinking about Knightfall and the battle forums.

Maybe Knightfall characters are just on another level due to training and gear? I don't necessarily mean as individuals, more like as a group. A massed cavalry charge with armored Templars like we saw on episode 1 would decimate the Vikings. They broke when they were hit with King Ecbert's light cavalry, who weren't nearly as well equipped, or trained, and were really behind the Templars in every way, they didn't even have spears to make the most of their charge. And on foot the Templars enjoy much the same advantage, vastly better gear, in that they are wearing actual armor, and a lifetime of training, the fact that every full Templar is a veteran knight counts for a lot.

@paragonnate: I could see that sure, in fact I assumed as much. Knights already were some of the most elite warriors of the past, the Templar Knights are even moreso than them which this show thus far proves as such. I mean Landry alone was beating the piss out of those guys who stole Godfrey's body, wading through 3 of them like nothing. Then he later takes on...like 5 by himself before Tancrede and Gawain came in and then they pretty much stomped them.

Save Gawain due to his leg, but even he kinda took them apart.

The scene with defending the Jews, there was what...a single line of Templers against a larger group of highwaymen with spears and the Templars won that one.

Godfrey also pretty much tore though some highwaymen too before dying and he seemed far passed his prime.

@wolfrazer: Just watched the fight to save the Jews again, The Templars were outnumbered something like 3 or 4 to 1. The bandit battle line was roughly the same length as the Templars, but it was something like 3 men deep in some spots, whereas the Templars was only 1. And I think we see one Templar go down, maybe 2, to the bandit leader but other than that no Templars falling at all.

Godfrey did, and yeah he was breathing hard even before he was wounded, tiring out.

@paragonnate: Even when Godfrey did get wounded by that...flail? Bola? I couldn't exactly tell what he was hit with when his horse got shot. But anyway even after, he still wrecked em fierce.

There's also Tancrede vs the Saracren, the latter only having any real advantage due to the former wanting the scroll moreso.

I keep forgetting I have to watch Knightfall, I was super hyped by the trailer.

@princeleif: Gotta watch it! Already on episode 4 this Wednesday!

Wow, I am actually pretty impressed by how bad Nazoret is at this whole "politics" thing.

How could he not have known that telling people the princess had pre-marital sex would be a massive mark on her honor and make her an undesirable bride?

Also still can't tell Tancred and Gawain a part. Maybe one day I will. I thought Gawain was the killer until they spoke each other's names aloud. Still, very nice scene. I loved how the cross stood between the two as they spoke.

@metaljimmor: @paragonnate: This was an interesting episode with some twists and turns, I didn't think Tancrede would turn out to be the killer. Landry visited a pagan worshiper?

Also everyone seems to be such a *** or a liar or a *** to Philip and I get that he eventually he turns against the Templars but...damn.

Joan's cousin was such a ****.

Also Godfrey is a tank! He took that hit to the stomach and kept trucking along, although didn't Knights abhor the use of crossbows and the like for combat finding it to be un-honorable? Or am I thinking about something else?

Granted young Landry was about to be killed, so I guess that could be an exception.

It seems war with England was inevitable, kinda sucks they beheaded Sebastian like that, that was a damn fine looking horse.

Next episode it looks like an assassination attempt is coming for Philip during the wedding, should be interesting, maybe we'll get to see him use his sword training....well depending on how many assassins there are.

I'm ignoring everything you guys have wrote because I can't get the damn player to work.

@princeleif: Well that sucks..

@wolfrazer:

Knights were fine with using crossbows. They wouldn't typically use one in a battle because that simply wasn't the role of the knight, who acted as a heavy shock cavalry unit with horse and lance, but that didn't mean they refused to use the crossbow at all when going hunting or for self defense purposes. Knights were trained to use a variety of weapons, not just the lance and sword.

I do hope we get to see King Phillip kick some butt next episode. I imagine Landry will save him, but there's still room for the king to end up fighting an assassin 1v1 at some point. If he gets a good combat showing that just makes Landry even more convincingly awesome.

@metaljimmor: Hm guess I was thinking something else then. I knew they trained with just about every weapon and did use bows/crossbows for hunting or sport but wasn’t sure on the one on one deal.

Yeah I wanna see Philip kick some butt so here’s hoping.

I've been contemplating weather or not to watch this, would you recommend it? I'd also like to know the main plot without spoilers please.

@all-father: I'd def recommend it. Basically the plot revolves around the Templars and the Holy Grail, with a subplot involving King Philip and Queen Joan of France.

Landry did visit a pagan, one of the last pagans in all of Europe judging by the time period the show is set in. That's some dedication right there. Yeah Tancrede being the killer was....odd. He's been a stand up guy so far so him murdering a wounded and unarmed man in the Templars care is shocking. But I guess everyone can feel fear and it got to him.

I think Joan is making the right move going back to her husband, even if she's doing it for the wrong reasons. Maybe them getting back together in bed will start the process of fixing their marriage? Landry broke up with her so it could be a start.

Joan's cousin was a ruthless politician. And yes she was also a *****.

Godfrey's so awesome he gets feats even after he's dead. Your thinking of stereotypical fantasy knights, "Bows are the weapons of filthy peasants I'm rich, and not filthy and-*gets hit in the eye by a crossbow*" RL knights practiced with all sorts of weapons, really it's like Jimmor said crossbows and such didn't fit their role on the battlefield so they didn't carry them, everywhere else they wouldn't mind using it though.

Blood for the Blood God! Also, RIP white horsey, looks like war isn't going to be avoided because the English are sore losers.

Is it just me or does the assassin kind of look like an Immortal from 300? Maybe an attempt on Phillip, or the Prince by Nogaret.

@paragonnate: I mean if she's going to his bed just to cover up the fact that she's having a baby, so she's just doing it to fool Philip into thinking the child would be his...dunno that doesn't seem like something that would help them get back together...but /shrug, who knows?

I hope we get more feats for Godfrey even if he's dead, flashbacks can work wonders!

I did also notice that Immortal 300 assassin lol, should be interesting in how that plays out. Could be an attempt on both? Although judging from the trailer it seems the assassin is targeting Philip, but I guess we'll see when it comes.

Well she's making the right move, for the wrong reasons. A relationship in the bedroom might push them to actually get closer in the rest of their relationship. Then again maybe not. I dunno, just speculating.

Well, Landry thinks Phillip is the target. But he doesn't know about the Prince and that whole situation so he could be assuming wrong. In fact I'll bet that's what happens. He jumps in to save Phillip, Prince get shot instead.

@paragonnate: True that could happen, probably will seeing as they want the wedding to be stopped.

@metaljimmor: @paragonnate:

Well that was...certainly interesting, Nogaret has certainly stepped up his game with killing someone, that was a pretty elaborate plan. Though I feel it was a little extreme for Isabella to kill the Prince because she thought he told everyone what they had done, I mean...if she actually loved him then she would have believed him, especially since he has nothing to gain from telling anyone. Pope Boniface really took the high road with Nogaret, giving him prayer and all that as he was sick despite him being a snake in the grass

Tancrede certainly was brutally beaten this episode, that was really harsh...wonder how he's gonna come out when all is said and done.

Gawain I guess I was wrong about him turning to an antagonist, I guess he could still end up but now I'm not entirely sure with the way he's been going these past couple of episodes and his interactions with Parsifal also I said the exact same thing Gawain was saying, his obsession with his wife would end up getting him killed! But it seems like he's finally going to move on, so that's good.

It's gonna be really painful to watch as Philip eventually turns against the Templars with the way he's currently portrayed as, but then again I guess I understand with the way everyone is treating him behind his back.

I wasn't able to record this episode. My power has been out the last couple days. I'll need to find it online.

@metaljimmor: Aww.

@wolfrazer:Well that was...certainly interesting, Nogaret has certainly stepped up his game with killing someone, that was a pretty elaborate plan. Though I feel it was a little extreme for Isabella to kill the Prince because she thought he told everyone what they had done, I mean...if she actually loved him then she would have believed him, especially since he has nothing to gain from telling anyone. Pope Boniface really took the high road with Nogaret, giving him prayer and all that as he was sick despite him being a snake in the grass

A sneaky snek. But give the snake his due, he's willing to put his life on the line for what he wants, in his own twisted way. Maybe she's crazy? She's what? 16? 17? Perhaps killing someone who hurt her (or she believes they did) seems perfectly reasonable to her.

Tancrede certainly was brutally beaten this episode, that was really harsh...wonder how he's gonna come out when all is said and done.

And he was still conscious, Godfrey nearly gets gutted, and Landry takes a crossbow bolt to the shoulder, and the beating Tancrede took, Templars are tough as a rule apparently. I'd say he did it out of loyalty to the Order, the others don't see it that way, but in his mind he did it for them, so I don't think he'll betray the, or anything. Even that last scene with Landry, after he had been beaten and left in his cell he only wanted to help the Order.

Gawain I guess I was wrong about him turning to an antagonist, I guess he could still end up but now I'm not entirely sure with the way he's been going these past couple of episodes and his interactions with Parsifal also I said the exact same thing Gawain was saying, his obsession with his wife would end up getting him killed! But it seems like he's finally going to move on, so that's good.

Maybe he went to that tree to let his anger go? Maybe helping Parsifal get through his anger helped him let his own go? Definitely a positive series of events for him.

It's gonna be really painful to watch as Philip eventually turns against the Templars with the way he's currently portrayed as, but then again I guess I understand with the way everyone is treating him behind his back.

Agreed, he definitely seems like a decent guy so far. I really liked the scene with the troops, they seemed ready to follow him to war if needed.

Also, I'd just like to say that I love the costumes in this show, the armor especially. The mail actually looks like mail, the metal looks like metal. The stuff that the palace guards and French troops had on looked really nice. Acurate to the time period as well.

If History keeps this up and Knightfall's first season is well received I wonder if they'll branch out and eventually make another series. Medieval Europe is pretty well covered with Vikings and Knightfall, maybe give us another popular time period like Ancient Greece? Maybe one covering the Trojan War? Given that Troy actually existed but the details of the war are practically myth there's plenty of room for storytelling there.

@wolfrazer: Also, this makes it 2 times that Landry has saved Phillip's life.

@paragonnate: I wouldn't expect anything less from Templars, as was said when Godfrey took on those Highwaymen. "Templars enjoy pain, it thinks it makes them closer to God." I would imagine regular Knights themselves would be able to take some pretty good punishment given their training, Templars would be moreso.

Also possibly, Gwaian seems to have mellowed out a little bit.

Also yeah of all the things, I really do dig the costuming of the whole series, those palace guards were looking pretty great as were the troops. Though it occurs to me with France going to war with England, I would imagine England is severely screwed given that Philip is buddy buddy with the Templars and given the Pope being in France and having also good relations with the King....well it wouldn't look good for England if Philip gets assistance from the Order.

I could see them making another series sure, maybe a Samurai one to complete the whole deal with Vikings vs Samurai vs Knights. Though going to Ancient Greece would also be pretty cool and I'd be down to seeing the Trojan war, Odysseus and all them.

Also yep, one thing...did Landry just bolt time or did he move before the shot was fired? I can't recall right.