Israel questions thread: COME AT ME

Know whose words you are chanting.

@sc: I'm sorry to bother you miss, but The Red Viper posted disturbing videos that violate site rules. This thread should be in lockdown or deleted.

@poppyloves: Hello. Please send me a PM with a reference to what page and what video, and if its a long video, what rule is violated or a timestamp. Random accusations in an ask thread aren't the best way to go about reporting a user. Thank you.

@poppyloves: Then I will PM you. Its bad form to clutter up a users ask threads with accusations, even if they are accurate. Such things are better left for PM.

So, someone's alt (I can guess who's), contacted me via PM earlier today, calling out things that I have said here and claiming them to be lies. When I asked them to say these things in this nice little thread here, so everyone can learn from our to-be exchange, I was answered with this:

I wanted to contact you directly, but, as I had already predicted, your responses and evasions of my questions only confirm my suspicions of your dishonesty. You don't care about right or wrong, or what the truth is. You only care about the number of people you can mislead into believing your lies. That's simply all there is to it.

So, to prove that I am not dishonest and that I do not evade anything nor shy away from challenge, I will post screenshots of the PMs here (with the other user's name crossed out, in case they don't want to be contacted or anything). I post screenshots and not simply quote so you don't call BS and that I faked it all. You can also ask @willpayton and @lpnq, they were also included in the conversation because I apparently lied to them specifically.

I warn you in advance, there was some swearing there. I crossed out the insults, but I'm only human and in case I missed anything, I do apologize in advance. But I think I got it all.

So, I'll start.

you stated "Zionism is basically patriotism. It's the belief that the Jews should have a national home in the land of Israel, with Jerusalem as its capital. Seeing as I believe in this ideal, you could say I'm a Zionist myself."

That's FALSE. Zionism is NOT patriotism. Patriotism is OPEN. Patriotism is about being an AMERICAN regardless of race, religion, social class, etc. Zionism, on the other hand, applies SPECIFICALLY to Jewish people and the Jewish religion. It's theocratic. Not democratic. huge difference. Patriotism doesn't discriminate. Zionism otoh, discriminates.

You stated Israelis do not want the country to be a theocracy, yet Zionism itself is the very definition of theocracy.

OK, I think you don't really know what a "theocracy" is. A theocracy is a form of government/regime, where all authorities belong to God (or any deity for that matter), or to a religious figurehead. The best example would be Vatican City where the Pope and the College of Cardinals have all the authority. As far as I know, other than Vatican City, there are no full-out theocracies today. However, there are states that count as partial theocracies, like the Muslim states that have adopted Sharia Law as its main foundation for politics, law and so on. For example, Iran (and of course ISIS, but ISIS isn't a real state per se). There are others too of course.

Now, Zionism has nothing to do with the religion in itself. Throughout history there have been, and still are, many Zionists who are not Jews. For example, Martin Luthor King Jr.

The term "Zionism" was first used as the name of a movement, created in Europe in the late 1800's, by - wait for it - secular Jews. As in, not religious. Let that sink in.

Zionism was created as a response to many antisemitic nationalist groups in Europe at the time. The main ideals/goals of the Zionist Movement were to, first of all, establish a homeland for the Jewish people in the Land of Israel of course, and to raise and develop an ethnic identity within the Jewish communities of Europe, by doing things such as "reviving" the Hebrew language for example.

Although Israel has an official religion - which is of course Judaism - that does not make it a theocracy, since God is not the main authority here, and neither are Rabbis.

Besides, only 75% of the Israeli population, as on January 2017, is in fact Jewish. The rest are Muslims, Druze, Christians, Bahaii, and others.

The only Israeli law that can somehow be twisted to count as discrimination, as I already mentioned in this thread at some point, is the Right of Return - allowing any Jew from anywhere in the world to easily gain Israeli citizenship, while people of other religions cannot. But you don't have to grow a beard, wear a yarmulke and pray 3 times a day to be counted as a Jew. All you need is a Jewish ancestry. If you can prove your mother is/was Jewish, or that you have converted into Judaism, and that you're not of another religion - you're in. I have friends who were born abroad, came to Israel by themselves, and aren't even circumcised, and they have Israeli citizenship. So that law is not discriminatory; it only guarantees that Jews have somewhere they can always call home. Because I'm sure you are well aware what happened when we didn't.

Your answers also show bias.

Both Palestinians and Israel want the entire area for themselves. You can find quotes/cases of netanyahu himself wanting to dismantle palestine.

First of all, here's a very recent speech given by Netanyahu:

Quotes:

"Israel's hand has been extended in peace to its neighbors from day one. From its very first day. We pray for peace. We work for it every day since then." (2:22)

"Israel remains committed to resolving the outstanding differences between us and the Palestinians through direct negotiations. This is how we made peace with Egypt. This is how we made peace with Jordan. It's the only way to make peace with the Palestinians. This has always been Israel's policy." (2:53)

"I think that the decisions that are vital to Israel's interests and the future of its children should not be made through speeches in Washington, or votes in the United Nations, or conferences in Paris. They'll be made by the government of Israel around the negotiating table." (6:55)

"I personally know the pain, the loss and the suffering of war. That's why I'm so committed to peace. Because for anyone who has experienced it as I have, war and terror are horrible. I want young Palestinian children to be educated like our children. For peace." (7:27)

"My vision is that Israelis and Palestinians both have a future of mutual recognition. Of dignity and mutual respect. Co-existence!" (7:56)

"This conflict is, and has always been, about Israel's very right to exist. That's why my hundreds of calls to sit with President Abbas for peace talks have gone unanswered. That's why my invitation to him to come to the Knesset was never answered. That's why the Palestinian government continues to pay anyone who murders Israelis a monthly salary. The persistent Palestinian refusal to recognize the Jewish state remains the core of the conflict. And its removal is the key to peace." (8:32)

This speech was taken by the end of December 2016, less than 4 months ago. Netanyahu expressed his will for peace 6 times that I quoted, and several more than I didn't (so please do listen to the speech for yourself). Netanyahu doesn't want to "dismantle" Palestine (how do you dismantle something that doesn't exist in the first place?), he wants to dismantle the current Palestinian authorities. Oust them. Because they refuse peace, and always have.

Let's not twist things and be dishonest here and claim that Israel has "offered the arabs free land so many times but they refused". That NEVER happened and you know it, viper.

Well Israel has not only offered Palestinians lands in exchange for peace, we have actually given them land in exchange for peace and were answered with rockets.

I'm speaking of course of the withdrawal from Gaza in 2005, which involved uprooting thousands of Jewish families from their homes. We have given the entire area to the Palestinians. Not two weeks later, rockets were launched at nearby Israeli towns from these very territories. Google it, it's literally THAT easy.

Besides that there was the Camp David conference in 2000, in which Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak offered the Palestinians the entire Gaza strip as well as almost 100% of Judea and Samaria (I think it was 94%-95%), under very minimal conditions. Their answer was "no". Another example was the Annapolis conference in 2007, where Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert offered the Palestinians lands yet again (including East Jerusalem), and he also asked for next to nothing in return, and was refused as well. There have been attempts at negotiating since then, but none got anywhere. Again, Google it, it really, really is THAT easy.

Do you know what the logo of the PLO looks like? It looks like this:

As you can clearly see, it depicts the map of Israel - all of Israel. Not just Judea and Samaria. They want it all for themselves and that is why they never have and never will accept any deal or offer we make them.

Your example of Israel offering free land to arabs is literally no different than a palestinian claiming that israel wants to wipe all palestinians out.

It is different. The former is true while the latter is false.

The world is most certainly not biased against israel, mate, LOL. Both democrats and republicans across the board, majority of the time support israel. The DIFFERENCE, is that republicans are MUCH more lenient and much more open minded in what they would allow israel to do, vs democrats who want to put some sort of limits on israel. Republicans for example would support Israel mass murdering arab civilians (which you and most israelis as well as netanyahu wants as well), while democrats wouldn't blindly support every act israel does the way republicans do.

Ah, I see what the problem is. I said "world", and you think I meant "America". No, not everything is about you. There are almost 200 other states in the world other than you, you are probably aware of that.

And yes, there is definitely a bias against Israel in the world. Namely in the UN, as was admitted by former General Secretary of the UN - Ban Ki Moon, not even 6 months ago:

Do you know how many resolutions were taken in the UN against Israel in the last 10 years? More than 200.

Do you know how many resolutions were taken in the UN against the civil war in Syria in the last 10 years? Less than 10.

Let that sink in.

You've claimed you don't look at the religious history of things and only look at objective reasoning. If that's the case, there is absolutely no doubt that Israel stealing land from the Arabs in the mid 1900s under the logic of "our ancestors lived here a thousand years ago" is no different than someone stealing a house, murdering its inhabitants, under the false justification of "my grandpa a thousand years ago lived in this house/this land!!"

Stealing land from Arabs? No, we do not steal land from anyone. Never have. You mention the historical connction that Jews have to these lands, but have I even mentioned the fact that this whole region belonged to the Jewish people 2000 years ago, even though it's a historical, documented, undisputed fact? No, I have not.

Do you know who were the last to legally own these disputed lands? The British. And what did they do with them? They willingly gave it away. To whom? Half for the Jews, half for the Palestinians, by decision of the UN. And what happened next? The Palestinians refused this offer. And then they, along with several neighboring Arab states, waged war against the new state of Israel. How did the war end? Unexpectedly. Israel won. The lands that were supposed to be given to the Palestinians, became occupied. Who occupied them? Isra... no wait, that's not true. Jordan did. Them and Egypt. Jordan occupied Judea and Samaria, while Egypt held the Gaza Strip. In 1967, we were attacked once more, by Egypt, Jordan and Syria, all at the same time. How did that war end? Again, unexpectedly, we won. In six days. And we took MANY lands. But here's the catch: They were all taken in self-defense. So according to international law... yup, they belong to us, fair and square. We have literally every possible right to these lands. Historical, legal, political, heck even religious, according to most people (again, I will not use it as an argument).

the reasoning is false and illogical. regardless of your views on the CURRENT state of affairs in israel or palestine, there is no debate and no question about the fact that Israel's creation did in fact involve killing and stealing from arabs.

Killing? Yeah, it involved killing, on both ends. Sadly, all wars do, and I hate to sound like a kindergartner, but they started it. Do you know why the "Palestinians" (this term didn't even exist back then) left their homes? Not because the Israelis drove them out, no. That's what they want you to think. The leaders of the Arab countries that attacked us told them to leave. They told them: "Leave, stay away from this place, and when we're done killing every man, woman and child in Israel - you can go back to your ethnically cleansed homes." But we all know how that ended up. The Arab countries were driven back with their tails between their legs, and the poor Palestinians were left only with a broken promise.

Or were they? They were all, in fact, offered citizenship by Israel. The ones who accepted became Israeli citizens, with full equal rights. Today they study and teach in the same schools and universities just like any other Israeli, can apply for the same jobs, receive the very same medical treatment, and even the 3rd largest political party in the Knesset is Arab. Heck, many and more of them are Zionists themselves, believe it or not (I know you won't). The ones who refused that kind offer, however, became refugees. And their sons and daughters became refugees after them, and their sons and daughters too, and so on and so forth and sadly their status is likely to remain in this sad limbo, unless someone wakes up and takes care of them. Why won't their leadership agree to negotiate with Israel? Why won't any of the Arab countries that persuaded them to leave their homes in the first place take them into custody? Especially Jordan, seeing as they illegally occupied all of Judea and Samaria between 1948 and 1967, and a large portion of the Jordanian population today are descendants of Palestinians. Actually, let me correct that last one: King Abdallah of Jordan did make some offers to the Palestinians back in the early 70's (I don't recall what they were exactly but they were supposed to make their lives a whole lot better). Well, they refused that too. They have a very bad track record when it comes to tempting offers.

By the way, why doesn't anyone speak of the hordes of Jewish refugees, who were kicked out of their homes in Arab countries when Israel was established? All those who survived the journey (and thousands upon thousands did not), were welcomed with a warm embrace into Israel. See, we take care of our own. Why don't the Arab countries do the same? I mean, there are so MANY of them, and all are bigger than Israel (except for Lebanon, and maybe others but I really don't think so).

Jews migrated to Israel/Pakestine from Europe. Claiming "Palestine was never a country" is a diversion tactic and simply doesn't change the fact that the creation of Israel involved stealing land from Arabs. Whether you call that stolen land palestine, israel, jordan, atlantis, olympus, or whatever other bullshit name, it doesn't change the fact that land was in fact stolen at that point in time.

Yeah, we migrated from Europe. Legally. With certificates. Under the supervision and permission of the British Mandate. For the most part that is, there were illegals as well, who sneaked in on moonless nights by ships, I won't deny. But the Jews who came here from Europe during the British Mandate, for the most part, came here legally (for example my grandparents on both sides of the family), bought lands and built their homes legally, heck they are the ones who made most of the lands here fit for living in the first place. They drained the malaria-infested swamps around here. Not the Arabs, not the British, not God himself. But the Jews.

And Palestine was indeed never a country, like it or not. It's just a name that the Ancient Greeks gave that tiny piece of land, and for some reason it stuck. There was nothing to steal. It's like a shop-owner blaming you for stealing an item that he never owned.

If there was EVER a country called Palestine, please do tell me at least one of these basic details about it:

• When was it founded?
• What were its official borders?
• Can you name one of its presidents, kings, prime-ministers or any other rulers that it might have had?
• What currency did it use?
• What was its population in a specific year of your choosing?
• What did their flag look like?
• What was its national anthem?
• What was its form of regime?

Somebody asked you about the punishment in Judaism if someone blasphemes God.

You responded with you aren't a rabbi so you don't know.

This is again, deflection. Everybody is well aware of the fact that in Judaism, the punishment for blaspheming God is the death penalty. Your religion is every bit as violent as Islam is, if not more. Let's not be hypocritical here.

Well let's see here. Let's see what kind of a Jew I am personally:

• I don't pray. Like, ever.
• I desecrate Sabbath. All the time.
• I don't wear a yarmulke.
• I have not set foot in a synagogue since my Bar-Mitzvah pretty much.
• I don't eat food only if it's kosher (love me some bacon). Heck, now it's Passover, and it's forbidden to eat anything made of flour, and I had a pizza.
• I don't fast on Jewish fasts, other than Yom Kippur (and ever then it's only out of habit and tradition).

Yup, still very much alive here.

I don't know, maybe if you ask a Rabbi they (and I purposelly say "they" because unlike Islam and Christianity, we have female Rabbis) might tell you that blasphemers are condemned to hell or something. But I don't know.

And when did I say Islam is violent? I never once said it, these are your words, not mine. Now who's generalizing?

I mean, maybe Islam IS violent, I know next to nothing about it. But Judaism certainly isn't. Did you know that the popular phrase "Love your neighbor as yourself" is originally from the Torah? Namely Leviticus 19:9-18.

You also stated

"First of all I disagree. That is prejudice, and saying that conservatives are idiots as if it were a fact, makes you the irrational one.

I am personally on the Republicans' side, as I am rightist in my political view.But there are conservatives/rightists and liberals/leftists everywhere in the world, not just in the USA. And the leftists in Israel often consider the rightists to be an inferior species of the human race, just like liberals do conservatives in the USA. And here too, like in the USA, it is just prejudice and it makes those leftists irrational and pretty unbearable."

Again, double standards and hypocrisy coming into play. You're attempting to make one side look bad while making yourself look better. My views personally are right wing, both socially and economically. I've met many right wingers, moderates, and left wingers. It is a fact that generally speaking, both left wingers and right wingers consider the other side to be an inferior species of the human race. Your comment implied that left wingers look down upon conservatives, while conservatives are nice, kind, and respectful to left wingers. That's blatantly false, misleading, and dishonest. You and I both know the common insult for left wingers that right wingers use are terms like "c**mie" or "c**mie b*****d". I personally don't insult either side but let's not lie or be hypocritical here. Both sides insult each other and I find it hilarious and hypocritical that you call this user out and complain about him generalizing all right wingers, then you go on to generalize all left wingers in the end of your comment. Leftists are prejudiced and irrational? Right wingers are just as prejudiced (and many of them are just as irrational). Both sides hate each other. You can leave the insults and generalizations out of it like I do, otherwise if you're going to generalize left wingers I'm not sure how your mind can even justify you complaining when left wingers generalize right wingers. Your mind is obviously f***ed and it's quite obvious that we can't take you at your word in everything else.

I'm not attempting to make one side look bad, I'm attempting to make one person look bad with my typical passive-aggressiveness, and for good reason I believe. I never said that the Rightists are all such a happy bunch of peace-mongers who always smile and fart rainbows. I know better than that. Far-rightists in Israel can get pretty low. I only said that leftists tend to treat rightists as inferior. Which, according to my personal experience, happens a lot more often than the other way around. At least here in Israel it does (again, just to my experience).

Besides, fact remains that a liberal came to my thread and asked if there's an idiotic group like the conservatives in Israel. While it didn't happen the other way around. Heck, nobody even asked anything about right and left/liberals and conservatives in this thread other than that guy. So the leftists at a bad track record here.

And just FYI, I may be a rightist, but I have leftist friends. One of my best army buddies is a very far leftist. Most of my high-school pals were leftists. I don't give a damn, think what you want, just don't rub it in my face.

You stated:

"According to international law, if state A attacks state B, and state B in self-defense takes over a territory that belongs to state A, it has all rights to claim it as its own. The "occupation" that everybody keeps talking about doesn't actually exist."

What about when State B itself is non existent and is an artificial state? "State B" in your example, doesn't apply to Israel. How do you think Israel came into existence? Britain and the UN stole some land from some arabs and gave it to the Jews because they didn't want to use their own money on taking care of those Jews.

I will repeat what I said earlier:

"Do you know who were the last to legally own these disputed lands? The British. And what did they do with them? They willingly gave it away. To whom? Half for the Jews, half for the Palestinians, by decision of the UN. And what happened next? The Palestinians refused this offer. And then they, along with several neighboring Arab states, waged war against the new state of Israel. How did the war end? Unexpectedly. Israel won. The lands that were supposed to be given to the Palestinians, became occupied. Who occupied them? Isra... no wait, that's not true. Jordan did. Them and Egypt. Jordan occupied Judea and Samaria, while Egypt held the Gaza Strip. In 1967, we were attacked once more, by Egypt, Jordan and Syria, all at the same time. How did that war end? Again, unexpectedly, we won. In six days. And we took MANY lands. But here's the catch: They were all taken in self-defense. So according to international law... yup, they belong to us, fair and square. We have literally every possible right to these lands. Historical, legal, political, heck even religious, according to most people (again, I will not use it as an argument)."

Lastly, would you mind explaining how being critical of Israel, or in fact, even being against Israel (Israel meaning the state of Israel/it's government), is the same as being an anti semite? It's a common deflection tactic/excuse tactic. It's ironic that the people that generalize the most, are the ones that are the first to throw out terms like "anti semite", and are the same ones that complain about others generalizing, without knowing what those words actually even mean.

An anti semite means you are prejudiced against Jews.

Israel is a nation, a state/a government. Jews are separate from, and distinct from Israel. Sorry to break it to you, but if some Arab country is critical of Israel or even accuses Israel of imposing an apartheid regime or whatever else, that does NOT mean they are anti semitic. In order to be anti semitic they would need to be critical of/prejudiced towards JEWISH people themselves.

I never said that being anti-Israeli is being an antisemite, although I do believe that.

Now, before I explain why, I just want to point out how amusing I find the fact that in the beginning you said this:

"Zionism, on the other hand, applies SPECIFICALLY to Jewish people and the Jewish religion. It's theocratic. Not democratic. huge difference. Patriotism doesn't discriminate. Zionism otoh, discriminates."

And now, you say this on Israel, the state that was established on Zionist principals:

"Israel is a nation, a state/a government. Jews are separate from, and distinct from Israel."

So I'm glad you changed your mind on that even without reading my comment.

Now, why is being anti-Israeli is just as good as being an antisemite?

Simple. Israel was founded for one sole purpose. It was founded and established so that Jews from all over the world have a homeland. A place where they are not being haunted, discriminated, boycotted, insulted, threatened and murdered for the sole reason of being a Jew. The only points in history where Jews did not suffer from all of the above, were when we had our homeland. We were exiled from this land twice: first by the Babylonians, and next by the Romans. When we were in exile, and dispersed all across the world... I don't need to remind you what happened to us. Even today, Jews that live abroad - even in the mighty, powerful, free United States of America, suffer from antisemitism. How many Jewish cemeteries were desecrated and wrecked since last February? Three already. Let's hope there won't be a fourth.

So bottom line is, whether you are aware of this or not, by wishing for the State of Israel to be dismantled. or destroyed, or anything like that - you are wishing for Jews to suffer all over the world. Anti-Israeli groups like the BDS for example, or any country that is anti-Israeli, simply adopts and practices the newest version of antisemitism.

Hope you learned something. I will send you a link via PM to make sure you see this.

*sigh* here we go again. This time I won't post screenshots, I just don't feel like going through this all over again. I'll just quote.

Mr. Viper,

I am not saying this to be childish or merely throw out insults.

I really think you need to work on common sense and logic. This will become clearer in my post.

Israel may not be a "theocracy" in the absolute, technical definition of the word, but the bottom line is, there isn't a separation of church and state the way there is in america.

Yes there is. Our laws are not based on the Torah, the Talmud or anything else religious. Heck, there are Muslim Arab judges in our supreme courts. There are a few laws that exist to respect the orthodox Jewish community, but they are very few and the majority of the public wants the changed. Our political system is not based on anything from Judaism either, it's just a democracy like any other democracy in the world, with fair elections and all that.

Sure, Judaism has a special status in Israel, but it's mostly just symbolic. I can walk around in the streets, eating a bacon cheeseburger, with a crucifix tattooed to my forehead. And nothing bad will happen.

Whether Zionism has anything to do with the Jewish religion or just the Jewish race is irrelevant. BOTH forms of Zionism are discriminatory/supremacist.

I still fail to understand how the will of maintaining the only safe haven that Jews have in the whole world is discriminatory.

One definition of Zionist is simply believing that Israel has the right to exist. That is entirely different from your (incorrect) view that Zionism is like patriotism or that Zionism is the belief that Israel is established and meant for Jews all around the world.

Zionism is derived from the word "Zion", the biblical name for the Land of Israel (and especially Jerusalem). It has had several goals when it was established, the number one of which being the establishment of a Jewish homeland. You might wanna know that several other places, other than the Land of Israel, were considered and examined. For example Uganda.

Today, the State of Israel already exists. Jews have a homeland. So Zionism turned into believing in Israel's right to exist, and in the ideas and fundamentals that stand behind it. It basically means to love your country. Which is like patriotism. Otherwise, explain how there are Muslim Arab Zionists that live here? How there are Druze Zionists that live here? Christians Zionists?

It would be very ironic if MLK believed in the discriminatory idea that Israel is "meant for Jews" or that "Jews are special", which is what you try to imply.

No, I'm saying that MLK, perhaps the most recognized person in history when it comes to equality, civil rights and pluralism, was a supporter of Zionism and condemned anti-Zionist movements. If Zionism was indeed racist and discriminatory as you claim it to be, that would make no sense now would it.

I never said that "Israel is meant for Jews" or that "Jews are special", this is again you putting words in my mouth.

Jews aren't any special or any better or worse than any other race or religion of people. It would be illogical to believe otherwise.

I agree.

You're twisting things. Netanyahu said that in dec 2016 sure, but a while back, in order to get reelected, he made a comment about how Palestine would no longer exist. He's flip flopping to look more peaceful, but when election time comes he will again start making more violent statements (and this reflects on the Israeli people as well. The fact that Netanyahu making violent statements helps him get elected shows that the majority of Israelis are actually in support of and agree with those said violent statements).

Can you show me a video of Netanyahu saying these things in his last election campaign?

As for the next election, well we're just gonna have to wait and see now would we. Wanna bet money on it? Even Naftali Bennett, our minister of education who is the head of a political party that is more right wing than Netanyahu's, NEVER said anything violent regarding Palestinians. On the contrary, he said that we should give them all citizenship and full equal rights.

And by the way, "Palestine would no longer exist" is an oxymoron, since Palestine has never existed in the first place.

This would mean that an Israeli voting for Netanyahu is absolutely no different, morally, than an Arab voting for some violent/terrorist leader. Palestinians have the excuse that their violent leaders are dictators that gain their power via violence. Meanwhile, Israel's violent leaders are elected democratically. It seems that overall, there are a lot more violent Israelis compared to violent Palestinians or Arabs. Interesting.

Again, please show me a video of Netanyahu saying something like you described. And even if he did, it would have been years and years ago, his consistent standing point in the last years has been toward negotiating and a two-state solution.

And you're mistaken. The terror organization Hamas was elected in Gaza through democratic elections. I don't know what sort of "persuasion" they used to get elected, but they did. Same goes for the PLO.

The thing is, the land that you "offer" to said Palestinians, is land that you originally, stole from them in the first place. You can't really steal something, then offer it back as if you are doing a favor or giving a gift now, mate.

Even if we did steal it, that still doesn't explain why they don't want to accept our offers.

Britain actually did not own Palestine, nor did they own the land it was based on. You need to look at this at the root.

...yes they did.

There were individual landowners with their own private properties.

Many of these properties and lands were purchased by Jews. Again I'll say, the Jews that came here in the time of the British Mandate, came and settled legally.

About 1-2 million arabs. 1 million of them were evicted from their homes, their families were killed and raped by ISRAELI soldiers. This is all DOCUMENTED history.

First of all I have no idea where you're getting those numbers from. The link you yourself provided clearly says 700,000 Arabs.

Anyhow, I don't really understand how that works. You say that Israel came into the Palestinians' territory, drove them out of their homes and took the lands for themselves. But... the area that was promised to the Palestinians by the UN was taken by Jordan. Not Israel. At the end of the war, Israel controlled only its part in the partition plan, which we owned by any and all rights, as well as small bits of Judea and Samaria that we took in self-defense, after the all-out war that the Arab League and the Palestinians waged on us.

Yes, there has been bloodshed and killing on both sides, I don't deny that. War is bloody business. But for every documented murder of a Palestinians civilian I can give you 2 documented murders of Jewish civilians. Try me.

Do you realize there were actually Israeli government documents which had evidence of Israeli soldiers raping arab/palestinian women in 1948? Interestingly enough, Israel closed these documents off to the public 20 years ago or so.

Sounds very convenient. "Oh yeah these documents definitely exist but they're top secret so I can prove it".

The whole "Arab leaders told people to leave their homes" is a failure of an excuse invented by Israel. Why would Arabs need to leave their homes at all? LOL. Do you really think anybody is going to buy that?

I already explained why. Like it or not, it's true. More Arabs left their homes by their own free will than by Israeli military advancement. And even this military advancement was justified.

It all comes down, again, to the fact that they NEVER wanted peace while it's the only thing that Israel has ever wanted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus

Look at this section of your article. It states that many and more Palestinians did leave willingly and that it was necessary to prevent the genocide of the Jewish people in Israel.

Palestinians want all of Israel because it was theirs (at least less than 100 years ago it was theirs).

You wanna go back and see who owned this land first? Jews owned these lands way before Islam was even a thing. Arabs and Muslims came here only under the rule of the Ottoman Empire.

Fact of the matter is, land was never offered to them at all, ever.

I just gave you 2 examples for offers that Israel gave the Palestinians, as well as one example of land that was given to them just like that, as a token of good will. What you're doing now is putting your fingers up your ears and screaming "LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU".

Even if these Palestinians wanted all of Israel, they would gladly accept this free land you're talking about, then ask for additional land after taking the land you offer them.

They do want all of Israel... what do you think that "From the river to the sea" refers to? What do you think that the green blot on the PLO's logo is, a Rorschach inkblot test?

Please, just Google it. Search for the Camp David conference. Search for the Annapolis conference. Search for the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza. It's THAT easy.

You're making conflicting statements, claiming they have been offered land, while also claiming Israel can't give any land away because Palestinian terrorists will use the land. Which is it?

It's both. Israel has offered them lands, which they refused. The land that they were given, which is the Gaza strip, is now a terrorist stronghold. Nothing to suggest that any other lands given to them won't be used for the same purpose. Which is why one of the conditions they were presented with, when they were offered these lands, is demilitarization of these territories, as well as recognition in Israel's rights for existence and safety. See? You can have both.

Okay. Let's clear this up. As far as the world being biased against Israel, again, no it isn't, secondly, it isn't even relevant.

But I just showed you a video that proves otherwise.

The most POWERFUL countries in the world all support Israel. Really the only countries that are biased against Israel are Muslim majority countries, Besides those Muslim majority countries, most of the world is on Israel's side mate.

You forgot South Africa. And many countries in Europe, like Sweden and Norway. And more.

Drop the victim mentality. The most powerful countries in the world support Israel.

I'm not "playing victim". I'm stating facts, is all.

Sure the UN may be biased, the UN also has tons of Muslim countries in it, and it's also ironic that the UN is the international body that legalized Israel and legally recognized/established it.

The UN is biased, and you're right that it's ironic that they are the ones who came up with the partition plan but condemn us on a daily basis ever since.

And Israel was recognized by international superpowers such as the USA, Britain and Russia from the moment it was officially established. Not just the UN.

The UN is basically how Israel was allowed to LEGALLY steal land from Arab people.

You're very confusing.

Again, UN and Britain STOLE land from some Arabs, and handed it over to the Jews post WWII. Britain did not own that land, nor did the UN own it. This was all because European countries did not want to take in Jewish refugees for whatever reason.

I can use the same arguments to say that the Arabs stole these lands from whoever was there before them, and THEY stole it from whoever it was before THEM, and so on and so forth until it again comes down to the Jews being there first. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, you can't victimize one side while completely ignoring thousands of years of documented history. Do you want me to talk about your blood-stained American heritage?

Jews and Arabs lived there with minimal to no problems up until the UN's decision in November 29th, 1947. After that they started attacking us, and it snowballed down to an all-out war against the Palestinians as well as 4 Arab countries - Jordan, Egypt, Iraq and Syria. We won, we have any and all rights to the lands we have now. It's that simple.

You don't seem to understand the concept of legality vs morality.

I do. "Legal" means living in a land with the international recognition for you to live there. "Moral" means not trying to commit a genocide on Jews simply because you don't like them.

If killing was legal, if stealing was legal, you've admitted you would be okay with these things. That is pretty shameful mate.

I think you have problems.

"According to international law" doesn't prove anything nor does it justify anything.

It proves and justifies quite a lot, in fact.

Stealing can be legal, it has at times been legal, and whether stealing is legal, or illegal, it would remain immoral.

Luckily, I didn't steal anything from anyone.

Yes, according to international law, Israel legally owns the lands. Nobody denied that.

People deny that on a daily basis.

However, the basis for that law is unfounded. Again I will repeat. Look at things for what they really are, not what is "legal" vs illegal.

This is starting to get tiring.

Britain stole land from arabs to give it to the jews. A legal, official state of palestine not existing does NOT change the fact that individual homeowners and landowers had their land stolen from them.

The partition plan gave half the territory to the Arabs and half to the Jews. No individual land-owner would have remained homeless if they had accepted. Deciding to attack instead, is their own problem.

It also does not change the events of 1948 where arabs were in fact evicted from their homes. Yes, in response, arab countries may have expelled Jews from their countries. That, too, is immoral. It doesn't change the fact that Arabs/Palestinians had their homes raided by Israeli military forces.

Sadly, this is war. A war that they started. Ugly things happen in war. But they have themselves to blame for starting it.

It's an indisputable fact and the only "historians" that even try to debate it are ones that want to rewrite history because they are ashamed/embarrassed of what happened.

So now you can read minds too?

Unfortunately, you cannot possibly claim that the Palestinians "Started" anything. Israel stole land from Arabs. Not the other way around. If you steal land, you cannot expect those people to sit and do nothing, mate. Be realistic. If you're the one that steals the land, you are also the one starting the war.

I thought that Britain stole the land? Or the UN? I don't get it.

It doesn't matter whether Arabs own 1 million, a billion, or a trillion pieces of land. It doesn't justify Israel stealing any amount of that land.

Mmmhm.

Unless you're arguing that it's morally acceptable to steal from someone much richer than you? Are you saying it's morally okay for a poor man to steal from, rob, or kill a rich man? You are a DANGER to society and belong in PRISON for LIFE mate.

Yup.

I could care less if Palestine was an official country or not. That is nothing more than a diversion tactic. You are again evading the question.

Okay.

Whether an official state of Palestine existed or not is irrelevant to the simple fact that Israel stole land, and the original land owners want it back. The race, religion, gender, age, and etc. of those original land owners is irrelevant. Israel stole land, and the original land owners want it back. That's the key.

If you say so.

You again evaded the question regarding the punishment for blaspheming God.

Go check Leviticus 20:13. I find it ironic when right wingers complain about Arabs or Moslems treatment of gays when your very own JEWISH religious text has a literal COMMANDMENT to KILL gay people.

Your religious text book has a literal COMMANDMENT to MURDER anyone that blasphemes God or worships false idols.

"Killing" gays is part of Christianity too. It was considered a sin back then, but the world is moving forward all the time, and there's a thing called "Halacha", which is how the Rabbi's interpret the Torah and the commandments, and their instructions on how a proper Jewish life should be in the present. The Halacha moves forward with time, and becomes more accustomed to the world. Just like Christians used to burn "witches" but that doesn't happen anymore.

And I don't see how that's relevant to the topic. You hate Judaism and Jews then? I guess that make you.... (fill in the blank).

Sure, the country of Israel may not follow these laws at this CURRENT time. It doesn't change the fact that they are part of the religion of Judaism. How can you be Jewish, but reject the commandments found in these verses?

Israel has never followed these laws, not just "currently"... no gays were ever put to death here, I don't know what you heard on the media. I get the feeling you have something against Jews, you speak of Judaism as if it were Satanism.

And yeah, I'm Jewish, but I don't follow most of the commandments. It's called being secular.

Sure you would be a non religious Jew. But verses like these ones, at their core, actually indicate that the religion itself, has some violent rulings and policies.

Every religion has them. Every monotheistic religion that is.

Israel may not currently implement these religious commandments, but they are a part of Judaism, and they may very well implement them at some point in the future.

Call me when Israel puts homosexuals to death.

Being in denial about verses like Leviticus 20:13 won't make them disappear now mate.

I'm not in denial about anything... I have a lot of criticism about Judaism and religions as a whole (hence why I am secular). But saying that "Jews are violent and evil because there's a verse in the Torah that says that homosexuals should die" is a very childish and (excuse me) stupid way of looking at things.

You went off the wall with your last post regarding being against Israel as anti semitic. You've used twisted logic to try to label anyone critical of Israel as being anti semitic. You have a violent, victim mentality no doubt due in part to your violent religion.

I don't know what to say anymore.

Israel's purpose for being established is irrelevant to anti semitism.

Are you seriously claiming that even in the USA Jews suffer from anti semitism? Do you realize every other damn race and religion suffers from racism once in a while as well? There's been attacks and discrimination against all sorts of people, asians, blacks, muslims, mexicans, even white people get discriminated against or insulted for their race.

Remind me what other race was gassed to death by the millions while the whole world watched and said nothing?

The bottom line here is this: You believe that anybody that does not consider the Jewish race and Jewish people to be superior to their own race, is an anti semite.

Says you.

Now comes a part where that guy insulted my family and stuff, so I'll spare the rest of this from you people who might read this. The rest was pretty much repeating the same mantras as before so you didn't lose anything important.

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Have you ever played Morrowind?

Do you have an opinion of the Kurds and Kurdistan?

1. Nope. Only Skyrim.

2. I think they are very brave, which is something I hold in high regard.

21 year old British exchange student stabbed to death yesterday by a Palestinian terrorist, in a light-rail station in Jerusalem. RIP.

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What is some good Israel food?

Falafel, Shawarma and Hummus which I assume you already know (although only in Israel and the rest of the Middle East you can get the really good stuff). Shakshuka is also great. It's basically eggs slow-cooked with tomatoes, peppers, onions and a bunch of other stuff and it's really good. There are tons of other things but these are my favorites.

Lefties have a hard on for hating Israel.

Was... that a question? Lol.

Shakshuka sounds like what we think of as omelets in the United States and it sounds like something that I would try. From what I gather from your posts, it sounds like you're trying to be more secular, but, what do you think of the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy, when Israel was re-established in 1947 (1948)? I think it's quite remarkable myself.

Nah it's very far from an omelet, maybe I haven't described it well. This is what it looks like:

Regarding your question, well the answer is in the question really, I'm secular and don't think too much of prophecies and all that. Sorry for the lack of a better answer.

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Red_Viper I guess is a reference to GoT. How big is this show in Israel?

Are you related to Randy Orton??

@the_red_viper: Is Pork completely banned?

Are there some beautiful ladies

Why do you keep bumping the thread? No offense, but it's become repetitive now lol.

Just sayin

It is, lol. The show is very popular here, it has a big audience.

Lol no, why?

No, there are plenty of places where you can eat non-kosher foods, like pork and various seafood.

Well...

Gallery

You probably know these two. Gal Gadot and Bar Refaeli.

There are tons more Israeli beauties. Israeli girls are actually considered very beautiful among foreigners.

Because I think that spreading the truth on Israel is very important.

@the_red_viper: lol because they call him the viper

Dude, The Red Viper is a character from "A Song of Ice and Fire".

@the_red_viper:

Seems to me that israeli jews are more conservative or at least not so liberal like the jews outside Israel who are 80% left wing voters ( I'm right? ), I said that because people says that exist a strong sense of community between all the jews, is that right? Because looks like israeli jews and american/european jews are so different.

Do you guys in Israel have feelings on the jews from America and Europe? Like a sense of brotherhood or something, or is just like the vision of a english guy to australians or canadians for exemple? They don't see themselves as the same people.

The government had been right-wing for the last years so yeah, the majority of the population are rightists, although I don't think that the definitions of "liberal" vs "conservative" fits our mentality as it does in the US.

I think that the answer to your other question is yes. The reason that Israel's right of return only works for Jews is because us Jews see ourselves as a people, not just a religion. You could have, for example, an American Christian, a British Christian and a Russian Christian but they would never see each other as part of the same people, while Jews do.

@the_red_viper: Dude he's also The viper Randy Orton WWE lol. (I was playing) I knew which you meant ..

@the_red_viper:

Cool, but I don't think the european/american jews shares the israeli jews views.

As Ben Shapiro said, the majority of american/european jews don't even cares about Israel, if I remember well, the majority is atheist and I'm sure the majority of israeli jews aren't.

And one more question, how the right/left works in Israel? You said is different from american view, a right-wing guy in Israel isn't someone who supports free market economy, low taxes, less government, are patriots, have some social conservative views...?

I wasn't talking about common political views between the Jews of Israel and Jews living abroad, on that you are right, but that is something else. I was talking about Jews' sense of community.

For your question: There isn't really a disagreement in Israel regarding economy, market and welfare, both rightists and leftists agree on most of these things. At least it gets talked about much less than in other countries. Right and left wings in Israel differ from one another mainly in other things. Security and law come to mind, for example.

@the_red_viper:

So... the israeli vision on immigration and multiculturalism? Not just for Israel, but for the west, a jewish State of Israel could end with multiculturalism, right? And if Europe and America embrace multiculturalism, isn't bad for Israel too? Without the support from west, Israel could fall.

I'm pretty sure a great muslim population voting in Europe and America isn't good for Israel.

I assume you're talking about the current wave of Muslim immigration into Europe. Well, multiculturalism isn't bad, Israel is probably the most multicultural country in the world barring the USA. Jews originated in Poland are completely different from Jews originated in Morocco, for example. The food, the music, even the way we celebrate Jewish holidays and keep Jewish tradition is different. But, regarding the masses of Muslims immigrating in Europe, we're not really enthusiastic to say the least. Every time there's a terror attack in Europe, the general response among the Israeli public is "our condolences, but we told you that would happen".

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Hey op can you give me ten reasons(if you want to) as to why Israel is better than Canada or America.

@the_red_viperWhoops can you check my comment above? should have tagged you.

@jaycool2: I don't know either country well enough to give you ten reasons. Besides, it's just a matter of opinion. What I can tell you though, is that academic education in Israel is far cheaper and more managable than in the USA. People don't get stuck for years in paying student loans here.

@the_red_viper: Oh, sorry about my question man. But hey that's interesting.

@jaycool2: Nothing to be sorry about my friend.

There are people who view anything even remotely connected to Judaism as religious coercion. Sometimes it's pretty justified, but most of the times it's not. For example, there was an article on the news this week about an elementary-school book, that showed pictures of 2 families. One of those was viewed as "perfect", and the other as pretty much the very opposite. The "perfect" family happened to have some religious attire and stuff so obviously the media was outraged by the way that little kids are being brainwashed into becoming orthodox... but then it was revealed that the people who write this book are completely secular and this article wasn't even remotely close to being true. Or, for example, not long ago there was some memorial day in Israel. All schools had a special ceremony held in honor of this day, and those ceremonies included a Jewish memorial prayer. To honor the prayer, the students were asked to wear a yarmulke. So of course one mother created a huge fuss about how the educational system forcibly makes her child adopt orthodox customs, which is pretty dumb. This is all a lot more common on certain groups of the Israeli population (ethnic and political) than it is on others. But for the most part it's bullcrap. Regarding women, well it depends on the community. I'm not orthodox myself so I can't tell you firsthand, but there are a lot of Jewish customs that aren't common for women traditionally, and nowadays Jewish women begin to adopt those customs more and more. Many orthodox communities condemn it, but not all. It is widely-covered in the media here whenever something unusual happens but not on a daily basis really.