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Posted by modernww2fare (7008 posts) 2 years, 10 months ago

Poll: Is white privilege real? (529 votes)

Yes 56%
No 43%

Is white privilege real in certain countries?

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#51 Posted by poeticwarrior (3526 posts) - - Show Bio

@batwatch said:
@poeticwarrior said:
@heroup2112 said:

@tobi-wan: What I basically said, to begin with, was that yes white privilege exists. However, I agreed with the other person, because he pointed out that other kinds of privileges exist too.

Good example. I applied for a job as a fire fighter (I'm not going to say where, I don't want any negative reactions toward me from them or toward them from anyone).

I got the top grade on the entrance exam, the physical agility test, and basic applied mechanical theory test. Do you know why I wasn't hired? Because if you were a minority you got an extra 5 hiring points, if you were a woman you got an extra 5 hiring points. So, a black woman beat me out by two points. Was I upset about it, no. This was back in the early 1990's when hiring practices were just starting to turn around for minorities, and I understood the situation.

However, don't try to sit there and tell me black, or female privilege doesn't exist.

You're talking about justice vs fairness. Justice is more about making up for past mistakes, so that everyone can be on equal grounds in the future while fairness is about treating everyone fairness regardless of their background and how they get their. What if the Black woman who was hired come from a bad neighborhood? What if she has to do more to get where she is while someone who is at the same position may have an easier time growing up based on their background. If we don't correct the past injustice, it would just basically perpetuate the social ladder in society where the rich where a lot of whites have an edge will get richer while the poor which often affected many minority due to the background they were born in will keep staying at that level.

Your view of justice is wrong. You are saying we should perpetuate a new type of injustice to make up for past injustices. If we lived this way, every single person would be taking a pound of flesh from every other person, and we could make up endless excuses for how every group of people should be getting special benefits over every other group of people.

Justice can only be found when individuals are judged for their own actions. You suggest we condemn one person for the actions of another, and that's the exact opposite of justice.

This is not my view, what I said is literally almost words for words from one of the best universities in America where I attend.

Ignoring the inequality that exists will just keep perpetuate the inequality between races. In a perfect world, everyone is starting at the same level, and we can judge them on their progress, but this is not a perfect world, everyone starts at different level, and along the way, there are blocks on the road that hinder their progress.

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#52 Edited by BatWatch (5487 posts) - - Show Bio

@silent_bomber said:
@batwatch said:

Most importantly, the government can never fix these problems.

What about investment into public services in poorer areas?

Though I've heard Americans say that these areas need more policing, and I'd imagine that would be unpopular based on track record.

Money doesn't fix the problems. Washington D.C. spends more on education and youth programs than almost any other area of the country, and they have some of the worst education and crime.

I'd personally like more self-policing rather than more police officers. We disarm the black neighborhoods and then scratch our heads when all the good people in the black neighborhoods are terrorized by the gangs who ignore the gun laws. When something bad goes down, it's usually too late for police to do anything but clean up. People have to be able to defend themselves, but sadly, that's a right denies most black people because of the policies the Democrats have pushed.

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#53 Posted by The_Man_With_Questions (2707 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes. Most white people are douche bags. Ex: Michael Jackson.

That's why I'm moving to Africa to live among my fellow Mexicans.

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#54 Posted by poeticwarrior (3526 posts) - - Show Bio

@batwatch said:
@poeticwarrior said:
@batwatch said:

Two years ago, I would say there is no significant racial bias towards whites in the United States, but since that time, I've given it a lot of thought and kept my mind open to what people say, and yes, there is absolutely white privilege in the United States as compared to blacks. Many people I know are more suspicious of black people, and obviously, that makes it a harder for black people.

That being said, there are a lot of other aspects to consider.

There is black privilege too. In my experience, black people can claim racism at the drop of a hat and they usually have much more latitude in discussing racial matters. There are lots of double standards about what can be said that work against white people.

There's also a chicken and the egg question here. We know blacks do worse than whites in nearly every measurable way, but are they doing poorly because of bias against them or is there bias against them because they do poorly?

Also, white privilege isn't necessarily due to pro-white racism. After all, Asians do better in nearly every measurable way than whites in the U.S., so having an advantage is much more than being a whitey..

Most importantly, the government can never fix these problems. Any attempts to balance the racial scales by treating one race better than the other will only create more injustice.

Asians do much better than whites, but they often work at a lower position than whites. You can look up survey and study, it's a bamboo ceiling. More injustice for who? It could just be adjusting the unequal treatment that is already existing. Sometimes SJW can take it way too far, but some consideration is in order to balance out the unequal that is already existing in society.

So Asians get paid more than whites while being burdened with less responsibility? That's living the dream, man!

In all seriousness, we know there are different cultural tendencies among different cultural groups. Isn't it plausible that Asian cultures might have tendencies less suited to leadership in American culture?

As far as who would be unjustly persecuted by government attempts to balance the scales, that depends on the specific policy, but to use the previously mentioned question of hiring discrimination, it absolutely is unjust to treat a white person poorly in order to make up for the past injustice to a black person. It would be like if I saw a Japanese girl and stole her purse and screamed, "That's for Pearl Harbor!"

Asian Americans are not that different from White Americans. I'm not sure what in their supposed culture that makes them inferior to be leaders.

I don't see how your example has anything to do with what is being discussed. Pearl Harbor didn't create inequality for the Whites, but for the Japanese who lost their homes, their livelihood, their life, their dignity by being in a concentration camp, that would set them back in comparison to Whites. That example is also showing another White privilege. We're in the war with Germany, Italy, and Japan, but only Japanese get set to concentration camps but not Germans and Italians. Asians are often being viewed as outsiders, and when a minority does something, it's a reflection on an entire race instead of the individuals.

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#55 Posted by BatWatch (5487 posts) - - Show Bio

@poeticwarrior:

Yeah, I know you are keeping to the mainstream university professor view. I'm college educated as well. The thing is, most college professors are socialists whereas I realize that socialist countries suck and almost all the progress that has ever happened in the world has come from people who are allowed to spend their money as they choose.

I don't know how you justify it in your mind, but regardless of whether or not you have thought it through, every single policy that discriminates positively on the basis of race by necessity discriminates negatively against someone of other races. Stealing one person's property to give it to another person you feel needs a hand up is steal an injustice. If you want to help those who are struggling, great. You are free to do that with your own money. Do that.

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#56 Posted by modernww2fare (7008 posts) - - Show Bio

@batwatch said:
@poeticwarrior said:
@batwatch said:

Two years ago, I would say there is no significant racial bias towards whites in the United States, but since that time, I've given it a lot of thought and kept my mind open to what people say, and yes, there is absolutely white privilege in the United States as compared to blacks. Many people I know are more suspicious of black people, and obviously, that makes it a harder for black people.

That being said, there are a lot of other aspects to consider.

There is black privilege too. In my experience, black people can claim racism at the drop of a hat and they usually have much more latitude in discussing racial matters. There are lots of double standards about what can be said that work against white people.

There's also a chicken and the egg question here. We know blacks do worse than whites in nearly every measurable way, but are they doing poorly because of bias against them or is there bias against them because they do poorly?

Also, white privilege isn't necessarily due to pro-white racism. After all, Asians do better in nearly every measurable way than whites in the U.S., so having an advantage is much more than being a whitey..

Most importantly, the government can never fix these problems. Any attempts to balance the racial scales by treating one race better than the other will only create more injustice.

Asians do much better than whites, but they often work at a lower position than whites. You can look up survey and study, it's a bamboo ceiling. More injustice for who? It could just be adjusting the unequal treatment that is already existing. Sometimes SJW can take it way too far, but some consideration is in order to balance out the unequal that is already existing in society.

So Asians get paid more than whites while being burdened with less responsibility? That's living the dream, man!

In all seriousness, we know there are different cultural tendencies among different cultural groups. Isn't it plausible that Asian cultures might have tendencies less suited to leadership in American culture?

As far as who would be unjustly persecuted by government attempts to balance the scales, that depends on the specific policy, but to use the previously mentioned question of hiring discrimination, it absolutely is unjust to treat a white person poorly in order to make up for the past injustice to a black person. It would be like if I saw a Japanese girl and stole her purse and screamed, "That's for Pearl Harbor!"

Asian Americans are not that different from White Americans. I'm not sure what in their supposed culture that makes them inferior to be leaders.

I don't see how your example has anything to do with what is being discussed. Pearl Harbor didn't create inequality for the Whites, but for the Japanese who lost their homes, their livelihood, their life, their dignity by being in a concentration camp, that would set them back in comparison to Whites. That example is also showing another White privilege. We're in the war with Germany, Italy, and Japan, but only Japanese get set to concentration camps but not Germans and Italians. Asians are often being viewed as outsiders, and when a minority does something, it's a reflection on an entire race instead of the individuals.

Actually German and Italian-Americans were also put in concentration camps(though not to the same extent as the Japanese obviously).

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#57 Edited by silent_bomber (4930 posts) - - Show Bio

@batwatch said:

Money doesn't fix the problems. Washington D.C. spends more on education and youth programs than almost any other area of the country, and they have some of the worst results.

What kind of programs are we talking about though? are they well thought out, targeted and efficiently executed?

Are they giving people the opportunity to raise themselves up or just giving temporary hand outs and leg-ups that go nowhere?

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#58 Edited by ThePreface (1436 posts) - - Show Bio

Heroin/Opiate Epidemic that predominantly effects white people - "We need to do something about the disease that is drug addiction! We should invest money in rehabilitation programs and decriminalize drug use."

Crack Epidemic that took impoverished minority neighborhoods by storm - "We need to hunt down these superpredators. We need to lock them in jail and throw away the key! It's the only way those animals will learn!!"

History tells the story. You be the judge.

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#59 Posted by poeticwarrior (3526 posts) - - Show Bio

@batwatch said:

@poeticwarrior:

Yeah, I know you are keeping to the mainstream university professor view. I'm college educated as well. The thing is, most college professors are socialists whereas I realize that socialist countries suck and almost all the progress that has ever happened in the world has come from people who are allowed to spend their money as they choose.

I don't know how you justify it in your mind, but regardless of whether or not you have thought it through, every single policy that discriminates positively on the basis of race by necessity discriminates negatively against someone of other races. Stealing one person's property to give it to another person you feel needs a hand up is steal an injustice. If you want to help those who are struggling, great. You are free to do that with your own money. Do that.

Property? You can't be robbed of something you don't own. It's belonged to the government, you can be jailed for lying about your taxes because you're stealing from the government. They can appropriate the money that they own to fix the inequality in the country any way they can.

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#60 Edited by BatWatch (5487 posts) - - Show Bio

@poeticwarrior:

I didn't say Asians were inferior. I asked isn't it possible that they might have cultural qualities that would generally make them less suited to leadership in U.S. companies?

As far as Asian culture being very similar to white culture (or to be more accurate, U.S. culture), I can't believe anybody who knows anything about the culture of Asian societies would actually bring up that point. Suffice to say, yes, there are cultural differences between cultures, and I'm sure you can find plenty of evidence of that on your own.

Pearl Harbor murdered whites, destroyed very expensive things paid for almost entirely by whites and sent us into an incredibly expensive war where mostly white soldiers died and tons of money was wasted in the war effort. Those costs of injustice far outweigh whatever paltry economic loss was sustained by the relatively few Japanese prisoners, so yes, let's take money from the Asians. Or alternatively, let's take money from American citizens of Japanese descent who came to the U.S. after WWII and give it to Asians who came before WWII. Same things with blacks. Black people who descended primarily from slaves have to get compensated for slavery, but those who came to the U.S. in the post slavery age have to pay in since they were probably descended from people who sold the Africans into slavery in the first place, and since guilt comes from blood, all the white blood in black Americans must also be punished since the white blood was from slave owners, so the darker you are, the more money you get. Also, women were deprived rights much longer than blacks, so all men must pay women compensation for the last five thousand years or so. It's going to take awhile for us to pay that one back. Then, let's not forget the Native Americans. Some tribes started violence against us. We started some violence against some tribes. We'll have to look at who did what. Some Native Americans will get badly boned and some will make out like bandits, and of course people of Hispanic descent will have to pay a lot into the system because the Spanish really did a number on the locals much worse than the British colonists, and then even the Africans who came here as slaves probably came from tribes that enslaved other Africans, so maybe they should all have to send money to Africa, and on and on and on this insane game goes.

To put it simply, this is bullshit. We can never make up for past wrongs in the past by wronging new people today.

People should be treated equally under the law. I don't see why that is a radical concept.

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#61 Edited by BatWatch (5487 posts) - - Show Bio

@silent_bomber said:
@batwatch said:

Money doesn't fix the problems. Washington D.C. spends more on education and youth programs than almost any other area of the country, and they have some of the worst results.

What kind of programs are we talking about though? are they well thought out, targeted and efficiently executed?

Are they giving people the opportunity to raise themselves up or just giving temporary hand outs and leg-ups that go nowhere?

Obviously, I don't know every program in effect across the entire country, but here's the thing. Individuals can always allocate their own funds more efficiently than government. Do you think Washington politicians are generally trustworthy? Then why would you want them to try to spend your money on your behalf.

Allow people to have more of their own money and they will pull themselves out of poverty.

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#62 Edited by IHateAnimu (206 posts) - - Show Bio

in the 90's it was "white men", now it's "straight white men", in 2030, it will be "straight white christian men", I bet you a thousand dollors right here, right now. Does it ever come to anyone's mind that someone might be manipulating you?

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#63 Posted by BatWatch (5487 posts) - - Show Bio

@batwatch said:

@poeticwarrior:

Yeah, I know you are keeping to the mainstream university professor view. I'm college educated as well. The thing is, most college professors are socialists whereas I realize that socialist countries suck and almost all the progress that has ever happened in the world has come from people who are allowed to spend their money as they choose.

I don't know how you justify it in your mind, but regardless of whether or not you have thought it through, every single policy that discriminates positively on the basis of race by necessity discriminates negatively against someone of other races. Stealing one person's property to give it to another person you feel needs a hand up is steal an injustice. If you want to help those who are struggling, great. You are free to do that with your own money. Do that.

Property? You can't be robbed of something you don't own. It's belonged to the government, you can be jailed for lying about your taxes because you're stealing from the government. They can appropriate the money that they own to fix the inequality in the country any way they can.

Taxes are a necessary evil, so yes, we give the government permission to take our private property and spend it on certain things. I'm saying that the government should spend those things on programs that do not line any particular person's pockets. When the bankers got a bailout, I object to it. When the poor of whatever race get handouts, I object to it. When the rich get loopholes, I object to it. When parents get child tax credits, I object to it. Treat everybody equally. No special favors to anybody.

Again, any policy that discriminates for one group by necessity discriminates against another group, so whether it's taking property, jobs, or something else away from someone, it is a kind of theft.

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#64 Posted by poeticwarrior (3526 posts) - - Show Bio

@batwatch said:

@poeticwarrior:

I didn't say Asians were inferior. I said, "Isn't it possible that they might have cultural qualities that would generally make them less suite to leadership in U.S. companies?"

As far as Asian culture being very similar to white culture (or to be more accurate, U.S. culture, I can't believe anybody who knows anything about the culture of Asian societies would actually bring up that point. Suffice to say, yes, there are cultural differences between cultures, and I'm sure you can find plenty of evidence of that on your own.

Pearl Harbor murdered whites, destroyed very expensive things paid for almost entirely by whites and sent us into an incredibly expensive war where mostly white soldiers died and tons of money was wasted in the war effort. Those costs of injustice far outweigh whatever paltry economic loss was sustained by the relatively few Japanese prisoners, so yes, let's take money from the Asians. Or alternatively, let's take money from American citizens of Japanese descent who came to the U.S. after WWII and give it to Asians who came before WWII. Same things with blacks. Black people who descended primarily from slaves have to get compensated for slavery, but those who came to the U.S. in the post slavery age have to pay in since they were probably descended from people who sold the Africans into slavery in the first place, and since guilty comes from blood, all the white blood in black Americans must also be punished since the white blood was from slave owners, so the darker you are, the more money you get. Also, women were deprived rights much longer than blacks, so all men must pay women compensation for the last five thousand years or so. It's going to take awhile for us to pay that one back. Then, let's not forget the Native Americans. Some tribes started violence against us. We started some violence against some tribes. We'll have to look at who did what. Some Native Americans will get badly boned and some will make out like bandits, and of course people of Hispanic descent will have to pay a lot into the system because the Spanish really did a number on the locals much worse than the British colonists, and then even the Africans who came here as slaves probably came from tribes that enslaved other Africans, so maybe they should all have to send money to Africa, and on and on and on this insane game goes.

To put it simply, this is bullshit. We can never make up for past wrongs by trying to balance the scales for every past wrong.

People should be treated equally under the law and should be free to succeed as much as possible.

In term of performance, Asian culture is mostly applied to Asians who came from oversea. Study shows that there is no significant in performance between Asian Americans and White Americans, even if Asian Americans score slightly higher.

I don't see how those injustice has anything to do with Japanese Americans. It's the Japanese who did it, but America was treating their own citizens as foreigners like they have a hive mind or something. Native Americans thought they share the lands, we push them out of the land, remember the Trail of Tears? We appropriate them to bad areas constantly. The reservations are mostly poor, there are a lot of crimes and not a lot of job prospect. Hispanic and Spanish are different groups of people with different cultures, I'm not sure what one has to do with the others. We're talking about the mistreatment that created the inequality, not holding anyone responsible. We're just creating an equal playing field here. All of your examples don't make any sense, so your point is not being strengthen at all.

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#65 Edited by BatWatch (5487 posts) - - Show Bio

@poeticwarrior said:
@batwatch said:

@poeticwarrior:

I didn't say Asians were inferior. I said, "Isn't it possible that they might have cultural qualities that would generally make them less suite to leadership in U.S. companies?"

As far as Asian culture being very similar to white culture (or to be more accurate, U.S. culture, I can't believe anybody who knows anything about the culture of Asian societies would actually bring up that point. Suffice to say, yes, there are cultural differences between cultures, and I'm sure you can find plenty of evidence of that on your own.

Pearl Harbor murdered whites, destroyed very expensive things paid for almost entirely by whites and sent us into an incredibly expensive war where mostly white soldiers died and tons of money was wasted in the war effort. Those costs of injustice far outweigh whatever paltry economic loss was sustained by the relatively few Japanese prisoners, so yes, let's take money from the Asians. Or alternatively, let's take money from American citizens of Japanese descent who came to the U.S. after WWII and give it to Asians who came before WWII. Same things with blacks. Black people who descended primarily from slaves have to get compensated for slavery, but those who came to the U.S. in the post slavery age have to pay in since they were probably descended from people who sold the Africans into slavery in the first place, and since guilty comes from blood, all the white blood in black Americans must also be punished since the white blood was from slave owners, so the darker you are, the more money you get. Also, women were deprived rights much longer than blacks, so all men must pay women compensation for the last five thousand years or so. It's going to take awhile for us to pay that one back. Then, let's not forget the Native Americans. Some tribes started violence against us. We started some violence against some tribes. We'll have to look at who did what. Some Native Americans will get badly boned and some will make out like bandits, and of course people of Hispanic descent will have to pay a lot into the system because the Spanish really did a number on the locals much worse than the British colonists, and then even the Africans who came here as slaves probably came from tribes that enslaved other Africans, so maybe they should all have to send money to Africa, and on and on and on this insane game goes.

To put it simply, this is bullshit. We can never make up for past wrongs by trying to balance the scales for every past wrong.

People should be treated equally under the law and should be free to succeed as much as possible.

In term of performance, Asian culture is mostly applied to Asians who came from oversea. Study shows that there is no significant in performance between Asian Americans and White Americans, even if Asian Americans score slightly higher.

I don't see how those injustice has anything to do with Japanese Americans. It's the Japanese who did it, but America was treating their own citizens as foreigners like they have a hive mind or something. Native Americans thought they share the lands, we push them out of the land, remember the Trail of Tears? We appropriate them to bad areas constantly. The reservations are mostly poor, there are a lot of crimes and not a lot of job prospect. Hispanic and Spanish are different groups of people with different cultures, I'm not sure what one has to do with the others. We're talking about the mistreatment that created the inequality, not holding anyone responsible. We're just creating an equal playing field here. All of your examples don't make any sense, so your point is not being strengthen at all.

Okay, I'll make the point more simply. It's insane to try to balance out the scales of past injustices. If you want to try to make up for the past wrongs, you end up doing the kind of nonsense I mentioned in my previous post. We can all find ways we are wronged by other groups and demand compensation, but it lead to insanity. We must judge every one as individuals and hold them to account for their own personal actions.

You say that you aren't trying to hold anybody responsible, yet earlier, you said, "Justice is more about making up for past mistakes." Don't mistakes necessitate a mistake maker? Isn't the mistake maker generally the one held responsible for making up for mistakes? It seems to me that saying you want the U.S. to make up for past mistakes means you must want to hold someone accountable, but assuming you truly have no interest in holding someone responsible then stop talking about the previous wrongs as if they are somehow relevant to the conversation. I will if you will.

Leaving apart any type of responsibility for past wrongs, then what you are advocating is just regular old socialism. It doesn't matter if someone is a poor black or a poor white, you just think the economic scales must be balanced. That's a bit off topic from where we started, but to make my case quickly, socialism is bad because it limits people's freedom, it fails to create wealth and it gives the government tons of power which they inevitably abuse. That why I prefer capitalism which is nothing more than economic freedom.

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#66 Posted by lamdaddy20 (1439 posts) - - Show Bio

Absolutely it does.

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#67 Posted by kevinwalsh (135 posts) - - Show Bio

I haven't read any of the comments but knowing the comic vine community this thread will be very subtle and nuanced in how people approach and talk about race.

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#68 Edited by ThePreface (1436 posts) - - Show Bio

LOL @ Africans sold other Africans into slavery. I hope you folks know that this started when the Europeans, specifically the Dutch introduced guns to African warfare. The Dutch destabilized Africa by supplying certain factions with guns and depriving others. To compete with rival factions the Africans deprived of guns were manipulated into trading their own kinsmen and prisoners of war as slaves. Which is what the Europeans wanted all along. And to top it off the conditions of slavery in Africa in comparison to the chattel slavery that took place in the Americas were extremely different and much more humane. They were treated like people rather than property for starters.

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#69 Posted by poeticwarrior (3526 posts) - - Show Bio

@batwatch said:
@poeticwarrior said:
@batwatch said:

@poeticwarrior:

I didn't say Asians were inferior. I said, "Isn't it possible that they might have cultural qualities that would generally make them less suite to leadership in U.S. companies?"

As far as Asian culture being very similar to white culture (or to be more accurate, U.S. culture, I can't believe anybody who knows anything about the culture of Asian societies would actually bring up that point. Suffice to say, yes, there are cultural differences between cultures, and I'm sure you can find plenty of evidence of that on your own.

Pearl Harbor murdered whites, destroyed very expensive things paid for almost entirely by whites and sent us into an incredibly expensive war where mostly white soldiers died and tons of money was wasted in the war effort. Those costs of injustice far outweigh whatever paltry economic loss was sustained by the relatively few Japanese prisoners, so yes, let's take money from the Asians. Or alternatively, let's take money from American citizens of Japanese descent who came to the U.S. after WWII and give it to Asians who came before WWII. Same things with blacks. Black people who descended primarily from slaves have to get compensated for slavery, but those who came to the U.S. in the post slavery age have to pay in since they were probably descended from people who sold the Africans into slavery in the first place, and since guilty comes from blood, all the white blood in black Americans must also be punished since the white blood was from slave owners, so the darker you are, the more money you get. Also, women were deprived rights much longer than blacks, so all men must pay women compensation for the last five thousand years or so. It's going to take awhile for us to pay that one back. Then, let's not forget the Native Americans. Some tribes started violence against us. We started some violence against some tribes. We'll have to look at who did what. Some Native Americans will get badly boned and some will make out like bandits, and of course people of Hispanic descent will have to pay a lot into the system because the Spanish really did a number on the locals much worse than the British colonists, and then even the Africans who came here as slaves probably came from tribes that enslaved other Africans, so maybe they should all have to send money to Africa, and on and on and on this insane game goes.

To put it simply, this is bullshit. We can never make up for past wrongs by trying to balance the scales for every past wrong.

People should be treated equally under the law and should be free to succeed as much as possible.

In term of performance, Asian culture is mostly applied to Asians who came from oversea. Study shows that there is no significant in performance between Asian Americans and White Americans, even if Asian Americans score slightly higher.

I don't see how those injustice has anything to do with Japanese Americans. It's the Japanese who did it, but America was treating their own citizens as foreigners like they have a hive mind or something. Native Americans thought they share the lands, we push them out of the land, remember the Trail of Tears? We appropriate them to bad areas constantly. The reservations are mostly poor, there are a lot of crimes and not a lot of job prospect. Hispanic and Spanish are different groups of people with different cultures, I'm not sure what one has to do with the others. We're talking about the mistreatment that created the inequality, not holding anyone responsible. We're just creating an equal playing field here. All of your examples don't make any sense, so your point is not being strengthen at all.

Okay, I'll make the point more simply. It's insane to try to balance out the scales of past injustices. If you want to try to make up for the past wrongs, you end up doing the kind of nonsense I mentioned in my previous post. We can all find ways we are wronged by other groups and demand compensation, but it lead to insanity. We must judge every one as individuals and hold them to account for their own personal actions.

You say that you aren't trying to hold anybody responsible, yet earlier, you said, "Justice is more about making up for past mistakes." Don't mistakes necessitate a mistake maker? Isn't the mistake maker generally the one held responsible for making up for mistakes? It seems to me that saying you want the U.S. to make up for past mistakes means you must want to hold someone accountable, but assuming you truly have no interest in holding someone responsible then stop talking about the previous wrongs as if they are somehow relevant to the conversation. I will if you will.

Leaving apart any type of responsibility for past wrongs, then what you are advocating is just regular old socialism. It doesn't matter if someone is a poor black or a poor white, you just think the economic scales must be balanced. That's a bit off topic from where we started, but to make my case quickly, socialism is bad because it limits people's freedom, it fails to create wealth and it gives the government tons of power which they inevitably abuse. That why I prefer capitalism which is nothing more than economic freedom.

Yes, I hold the government responsible, and they're the ones fixing the problem by creating a level playing field to account for the different starting points we were born into. Capitalism is also bad because it leads to monopoly and creating a gap between the rich and the poor. It works fine in the beginning, but the longer it goes on, the bigger the inequality gap it will create and harder for people to rise above their status, especially now that the jobs don't even go to America but go to other countries. I'm in favor of both socialism and capitalism mix, but that would be off topic.

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#70 Posted by Static Shock (52990 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't know about other countries, but it's definitely real in the U.S.

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#71 Posted by ThePreface (1436 posts) - - Show Bio

Laissez-faire capitalism doesn't work. For captialism to work there needs to be heavy regulation otherwise we end up with corporatocracies and oligarchies.

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#72 Posted by Static Shock (52990 posts) - - Show Bio
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#73 Edited by Heatblaze (10396 posts) - - Show Bio

What are these "privilages"?

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#74 Posted by Khaji-Da (609 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't know about other countries, but it's definitely real in the U.S.

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#75 Posted by erikarlsson (999 posts) - - Show Bio

@leo-343 said:

White people these days man.

"White people crazy".

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#76 Edited by poeticwarrior (3526 posts) - - Show Bio
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#77 Posted by The_Man_With_Questions (2707 posts) - - Show Bio

@static_shock: Wasn't I clear? White douche bags such as Michael Jackson (and white people in general) have ruined Canada for me. That's why I'm moving to Africa to live among my fellow Mexicans. If you're white like me then I recommend that you do the same.

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#78 Posted by poeticwarrior (3526 posts) - - Show Bio

@static_shock: Wasn't I clear? White douche bags such as Michael Jackson (and white people in general) have ruined Canada for me. That's why I'm moving to Africa to live among my fellow Mexicans. If you're white like me then I recommend that you do the same.

Mexicans are not from Africa, they're all U.S. citizens.

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#79 Posted by The_Man_With_Questions (2707 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_man_with_questions said:

@static_shock: Wasn't I clear? White douche bags such as Michael Jackson (and white people in general) have ruined Canada for me. That's why I'm moving to Africa to live among my fellow Mexicans. If you're white like me then I recommend that you do the same.

Mexicans are not from Africa, they're all U.S. citizens.

Nah. Mexicans came from the planet Krypton and land in African in 2014. Then they began surfing to America and integrating into society.

Just an fyi, but some of the post in this thread are making me not take it seriously, so yeah...

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#80 Edited by comicace3 (12425 posts) - - Show Bio

What people don't get about white privilege, even those who deny it, is you don't have to be racist to benefit from racism.

It's simple, people often confuse white privilege with white people being millionaires or the high middle class all because their ancestors were racist. Yes I know there are white people living in poverty, duh. Some people go as far as to argue " well it's not our fault we have *insert good thing here* becasue my grandparents were racists". And some even believe that white privilege is equated to white people being racist which is not the case. And some even think it is the exact opposite and that black people have some sort of privilege of pulling the race card every time they deem necessary I mean c'mon now.

Here is a little scenario for y'all. Imagine a white person walking in the deep south. You guys think that he will be looked at funny? Do you really believe that anyone will bat an eye if he is walking through a neighborhood that is predominantly white?

Now imagine a minority walking in the deep south. I'd be scared as hell walking through a neighborhood that is white cuz I know I'll be looked at every second to see if I'm doing something wrong.

Another scenario that works great with what I am talking about is walking in stores that have expensive clothes in them. I ain't gonna be followed or side-eyed if I was white.

You might deny it but it's true and you would have to be kind of dense not to realize it.

Alright for those with short attention spans the tldr version:

White privilege is real but many who argue against the idea either don't understand the concept or blow it out of proportion, when honestly all you have to do is look at the simple things in life that make it evident that a white person may have it better than a minority in plenty of cases, regardless of their political ideology, how they act, their economic status, etc.

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#81 Edited by MyLittleFascist (31164 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicace3 said:

What people don't get about white privilege, even those who deny it, is you don't have to be racist to benefit from racism.

It's simple, people often confuse white privilege with white people being millionaires or the high middle class all because their ancestors were racist. Yes I know there are white people living in poverty, duh. Some people go as far as to argue " well it's not our fault we have *insert good thing here* becasue my grandparents were racists". And some even believe that white privilege is equated to white people being racist which is not the case. And some even think it is the exact opposite and that black people have some sort of privilege of pulling the race card every time they deem necessary I mean c'mon now.

Here is a little scenario for y'all. Imagine a white person walking in the deep south. You guys think that he will be looked at funny? Do you really believe that anyone will bat an eye is he walking through a neighborhood that predominantly white?

Now imagine a minority walking in the deep south. I'd be scared as hell walking through a neighborhood that is white cuz I know I'll be looked at every second to see if I'm doing something wrong.

Another scenario that works great with what I am talking about is walking in stores that have expensive clothes in them. I ain't gonna be followed or side-eyed if I was white.

You might deny it but it's true and you would have to be kind of dense to not realize it.

Alright for those with short attention spans the tldr version:

White privilege is real but many who argue against the idea either don't understand the concept or blow it out of proportion, when honestly all you have to do is look at the simple things in life that make it evident that a white person may have it better than a minority in plenty of cases, regardless of their political ideology, how they act, their economic status, etc.

lol no. I am Asian and have been through those rural areas. Did I get a lot of unwanted attention? Yes. Did I ever feel in danger? No.

Going through a ghetto black neighborhood while walking with a white friend on the other hand...

Yea you would. They are going to be suspicious of anyone who dresses like they aren't usually able to afford those clothes.

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#82 Edited by Noone301994 (22169 posts) - - Show Bio

A yes or no answer is too simplistic for a complex question like this. It depends on a lot of factors. Where you are, who you are, etc.

What about when a white person who is darker and people are unable to tell that he's ethnically Caucasian? What happens to this individual's white privilege?

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#83 Posted by FableCounty (873 posts) - - Show Bio
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#84 Posted by Noone301994 (22169 posts) - - Show Bio

@thepreface: Lol are you really going to sit there and say that African slavery started after the 'white man' brought over guns? Really? Slavery in Africa existed for thousands of years and ironically it still exists in Africa.

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#85 Posted by poeticwarrior (3526 posts) - - Show Bio
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#86 Posted by Noone301994 (22169 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicace3: Your example about 'walking in the south' or in predominant white neighborhoods can literally be reversed for white people. What if a Caucasian walked through a predominantly African American neighborhood? You think he wouldn't get any weird looks?

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#87 Posted by just_sayin (3315 posts) - - Show Bio

@heroup2112 said:

@tobi-wan: What I basically said, to begin with, was that yes white privilege exists. However, I agreed with the other person, because he pointed out that other kinds of privileges exist too.

Good example. I applied for a job as a fire fighter (I'm not going to say where, I don't want any negative reactions toward me from them or toward them from anyone).

I got the top grade on the entrance exam, the physical agility test, and basic applied mechanical theory test. Do you know why I wasn't hired? Because if you were a minority you got an extra 5 hiring points, if you were a woman you got an extra 5 hiring points. So, a black woman beat me out by two points. Was I upset about it, no. This was back in the early 1990's when hiring practices were just starting to turn around for minorities, and I understood the situation.

However, don't try to sit there and tell me black, or female privilege doesn't exist.

You're talking about justice vs fairness. Justice is more about making up for past mistakes, so that everyone can be on equal grounds in the future while fairness is about treating everyone fairness regardless of their background and how they get their. What if the Black woman who was hired come from a bad neighborhood? What if she has to do more to get where she is while someone who is at the same position may have an easier time growing up based on their background. If we don't correct the past injustice, it would just basically perpetuate the social ladder in society where the rich where a lot of whites have an edge will get richer while the poor which often affected many minority due to the background they were born in will keep staying at that level.

Are you really that unwilling to acknowledge that discrimination has occurred when a poor white kid from Appalachia with good grades doesn't get into a college that accepts a rich black kid with poorer grades. If someone is denied something only because of her color that's discrimination...period. The reality is the rich kid will be accepted into a college somewhere. His money will find a way, but the poorer white kid has fewer options.

If someone competes for a job and is the more qualified candidate but it is given to someone else because of affirmative action that is discrimination. Discriminating against anyone because of the color of their skin is racist. Arguing that it is OK to employee racist policies to correct past injustices doesn't change the fact that discrimination is discrimination. There are other ways to address past injustices.

If it is OK for one race or group to do something, logic dictates then it should be OK for another group to do the same thing if everyone has equal privileges. If someone started talking about having white pride or a white's only college they would be labeled as racist; it would be unacceptable. Arguing that black people should be given this privilege because of past discrimination only proves the point that black privilege is indeed real. Can't you see that you are justifying and rationalizing the privilege? There are certain activities that can be engaged in by one group that are deemed acceptable and are not granted to another - that's the very definition of privilege.

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#88 Posted by Tobi-wan (83 posts) - - Show Bio
No Caption Provided

Here are 50 Examples of White Privilege by McIntosh

1. I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time. 2. I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me. 3. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live. 4. I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me. 5. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed. 6. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented. 7. When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization," I am shown that people of my color made it what it is. 8. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race. 9. If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece on white privilege. 10. I can be pretty sure of having my voice heard in a group in which I am the only member of my race. 11. I can be casual about whether or not to listen to another person's voice in a group in which s/he is the only member of his/her race. 12. I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser's shop and find someone who can cut my hair. 13. Whether I use checks, credit cards or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability. Peggy McIntosh is associate director of the Wellesley Collage Center for Research on Women. This essay is excerpted from Working Paper 189. "White Privilege and Male Privilege: A Personal Account of Coming To See Correspondences through Work in Women's Studies" (1988), by Peggy McIntosh; available for $4.00 from the Wellesley College Center for Research on Women, Wellesley MA 02181 The working paper contains a longer list of privileges. This excerpted essay is reprinted from the Winter 1990 issue of Independent School. 14. I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them. 15. I do not have to educate my children to be aware of systemic racism for their own daily physical protection. 16. I can be pretty sure that my children's teachers and employers will tolerate them if they fit school and workplace norms; my chief worries about them do not concern others' attitudes toward their race. 17. I can talk with my mouth full and not have people put this down to my color. 18. I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty or the illiteracy of my race. 19. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial. 20. I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race. 21. I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group. 22. I can remain oblivious of the language and customs of persons of color who constitute the world's majority without feeling in my culture any penalty for such oblivion. 23. I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behavior without being seen as a cultural outsider. 24. I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to the "person in charge", I will be facing a person of my race. 25. If a traffic cop pulls me over or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled out because of my race. 26. I can easily buy posters, post-cards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys and children's magazines featuring people of my race. 27. I can go home from most meetings of organizations I belong to feeling somewhat tied in, rather than isolated, out-of-place, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance or feared. 28. I can be pretty sure that an argument with a colleague of another race is more likely to jeopardize her/his chances for advancement than to jeopardize mine. 29. I can be pretty sure that if I argue for the promotion of a person of another race, or a program centering on race, this is not likely to cost me heavily within my present setting, even if my colleagues disagree with me. 30. If I declare there is a racial issue at hand, or there isn't a racial issue at hand, my race will lend me more credibility for either position than a person of color will have. Peggy McIntosh is associate director of the Wellesley Collage Center for Research on Women. This essay is excerpted from Working Paper 189. "White Privilege and Male Privilege: A Personal Account of Coming To See Correspondences through Work in Women's Studies" (1988), by Peggy McIntosh; available for $4.00 from the Wellesley College Center for Research on Women, Wellesley MA 02181 The working paper contains a longer list of privileges. This excerpted essay is reprinted from the Winter 1990 issue of Independent School. 31. I can choose to ignore developments in minority writing and minority activist programs, or disparage them, or learn from them, but in any case, I can find ways to be more or less protected from negative consequences of any of these choices. 32. My culture gives me little fear about ignoring the perspectives and powers of people of other races. 33. I am not made acutely aware that my shape, bearing or body odor will be taken as a reflection on my race. 34. I can worry about racism without being seen as self-interested or self-seeking. 35. I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having my co-workers on the job suspect that I got it because of my race. 36. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether it had racial overtones. 37. I can be pretty sure of finding people who would be willing to talk with me and advise me about my next steps, professionally. 38. I can think over many options, social, political, imaginative or professional, without asking whether a person of my race would be accepted or allowed to do what I want to do. 39. I can be late to a meeting without having the lateness reflect on my race. 40. I can choose public accommodation without fearing that people of my race cannot get in or will be mistreated in the places I have chosen. 41. I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me. 42. I can arrange my activities so that I will never have to experience feelings of rejection owing to my race. 43. If I have low credibility as a leader I can be sure that my race is not the problem. 44. I can easily find academic courses and institutions which give attention only to people of my race. 45. I can expect figurative language and imagery in all of the arts to testify to experiences of my race. 46. I can chose blemish cover or bandages in "flesh" color and have them more or less match my skin. 47. I can travel alone or with my spouse without expecting embarrassment or hostility in those who deal with us. Peggy McIntosh is associate director of the Wellesley Collage Center for Research on Women. This essay is excerpted from Working Paper 189. "White Privilege and Male Privilege: A Personal Account of Coming To See Correspondences through Work in Women's Studies" (1988), by Peggy McIntosh; available for $4.00 from the Wellesley College Center for Research on Women, Wellesley MA 02181 The working paper contains a longer list of privileges. This excerpted essay is reprinted from the Winter 1990 issue of Independent School. 48. I have no difficulty finding neighborhoods where people approve of our household. 49. My children are given texts and classes which implicitly support our kind of family unit and do not turn them against my choice of domestic partnership. 50. I will feel welcomed and "normal" in the usual walks of public life, institutional and social.

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#89 Posted by poeticwarrior (3526 posts) - - Show Bio

@poeticwarrior said:
@heroup2112 said:

@tobi-wan: What I basically said, to begin with, was that yes white privilege exists. However, I agreed with the other person, because he pointed out that other kinds of privileges exist too.

Good example. I applied for a job as a fire fighter (I'm not going to say where, I don't want any negative reactions toward me from them or toward them from anyone).

I got the top grade on the entrance exam, the physical agility test, and basic applied mechanical theory test. Do you know why I wasn't hired? Because if you were a minority you got an extra 5 hiring points, if you were a woman you got an extra 5 hiring points. So, a black woman beat me out by two points. Was I upset about it, no. This was back in the early 1990's when hiring practices were just starting to turn around for minorities, and I understood the situation.

However, don't try to sit there and tell me black, or female privilege doesn't exist.

You're talking about justice vs fairness. Justice is more about making up for past mistakes, so that everyone can be on equal grounds in the future while fairness is about treating everyone fairness regardless of their background and how they get their. What if the Black woman who was hired come from a bad neighborhood? What if she has to do more to get where she is while someone who is at the same position may have an easier time growing up based on their background. If we don't correct the past injustice, it would just basically perpetuate the social ladder in society where the rich where a lot of whites have an edge will get richer while the poor which often affected many minority due to the background they were born in will keep staying at that level.

Are you really that unwilling to acknowledge that discrimination has occurred when a poor white kid from Appalachia with good grades doesn't get into a college that accepts a rich black kid with poorer grades. If someone is denied something only because of her color that's discrimination...period. The reality is the rich kid will be accepted into a college somewhere. His money will find a way, but the poorer white kid has fewer options.

If someone competes for a job and is the more qualified candidate but it is given to someone else because of affirmative action that is discrimination. Discriminating against anyone because of the color of their skin is racist. Arguing that it is OK to employee racist policies to correct past injustices doesn't change the fact that discrimination is discrimination. There are other ways to address past injustices.

If it is OK for one race or group to do something, logic dictates then it should be OK for another group to do the same thing if everyone has equal privileges. If someone started talking about having white pride or a white's only college they would be labeled as racist; it would be unacceptable. Arguing that black people should be given this privilege because of past discrimination only proves the point that black privilege is indeed real. Can't you see that you are justifying and rationalizing the privilege? There are certain activities that can be engaged in by one group that are deemed acceptable and are not granted to another - that's the very definition of privilege.

There's a thing called scholarship, fewer options don't mean no options, and I wonder which is more poor Black kids or poor White kids. Study has shown that between the 2 equally competent employees, they would likely to hire a white employee over a Black employee based on perception. As I said, people don't see racism if it doesn't affect them. Not even in the job world, pick up any casting notice, and most of them would have Caucasian specifically under it, I thought it was about the best guy/actor for the job. Racist practice is not always about blatant racism but also institutional racism.

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#90 Edited by cameron83 (8548 posts) - - Show Bio

@zetsumoto: I'm not really sure what you're trying to say? Poor black people have seen white people and other races before.

@static_shock said:
@the_man_with_questions said:

Yes. Most white people are douche bags. Ex: Michael Jackson.

What?

1) I don't even think that "white people are douche bags" is even really what white privilege is.

2) ........yeah, I think he was joking.

@noone301994 said:

A yes or no answer is too simplistic for a complex question like this. It depends on a lot of factors. Where you are, who you are, etc.

What about when a white person who is darker and people are unable to tell that he's ethnically Caucasian?

Yeah, at times, the concept of "race" can be a bit confusing and fail to cover some situations. There are people that are mixed/biracial and could look completely white. Just look at the rapper Logic (if that's what you meant?). As you said, these issues are very complex. But at the same time, I've noticed that racial politics in America are just identity based and hopeless, so who gives a shit?

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#91 Posted by Petey_is_Spidey (11543 posts) - - Show Bio
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#92 Edited by deactivated-5a937e573d769 (7054 posts) - - Show Bio

For some white Americans it does but most white Americans are every bit as underprivileged as everyone else.

But yeah the majority of "privileged Americans" are white.

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#93 Edited by MyLittleFascist (31164 posts) - - Show Bio

@tobi-wan said:
No Caption Provided

Here are 50 Examples of White Privilege by McIntosh

1. I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time. 2. I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me. 3. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live. 4. I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me. 5. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed. 6. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented. 7. When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization," I am shown that people of my color made it what it is. 8. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race. 9. If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece on white privilege. 10. I can be pretty sure of having my voice heard in a group in which I am the only member of my race. 11. I can be casual about whether or not to listen to another person's voice in a group in which s/he is the only member of his/her race. 12. I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser's shop and find someone who can cut my hair. 13. Whether I use checks, credit cards or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability. Peggy McIntosh is associate director of the Wellesley Collage Center for Research on Women. This essay is excerpted from Working Paper 189. "White Privilege and Male Privilege: A Personal Account of Coming To See Correspondences through Work in Women's Studies" (1988), by Peggy McIntosh; available for $4.00 from the Wellesley College Center for Research on Women, Wellesley MA 02181 The working paper contains a longer list of privileges. This excerpted essay is reprinted from the Winter 1990 issue of Independent School. 14. I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them. 15. I do not have to educate my children to be aware of systemic racism for their own daily physical protection. 16. I can be pretty sure that my children's teachers and employers will tolerate them if they fit school and workplace norms; my chief worries about them do not concern others' attitudes toward their race. 17. I can talk with my mouth full and not have people put this down to my color. 18. I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty or the illiteracy of my race. 19. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial. 20. I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race. 21. I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group. 22. I can remain oblivious of the language and customs of persons of color who constitute the world's majority without feeling in my culture any penalty for such oblivion. 23. I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behavior without being seen as a cultural outsider. 24. I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to the "person in charge", I will be facing a person of my race. 25. If a traffic cop pulls me over or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled out because of my race. 26. I can easily buy posters, post-cards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys and children's magazines featuring people of my race. 27. I can go home from most meetings of organizations I belong to feeling somewhat tied in, rather than isolated, out-of-place, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance or feared. 28. I can be pretty sure that an argument with a colleague of another race is more likely to jeopardize her/his chances for advancement than to jeopardize mine. 29. I can be pretty sure that if I argue for the promotion of a person of another race, or a program centering on race, this is not likely to cost me heavily within my present setting, even if my colleagues disagree with me. 30. If I declare there is a racial issue at hand, or there isn't a racial issue at hand, my race will lend me more credibility for either position than a person of color will have. Peggy McIntosh is associate director of the Wellesley Collage Center for Research on Women. This essay is excerpted from Working Paper 189. "White Privilege and Male Privilege: A Personal Account of Coming To See Correspondences through Work in Women's Studies" (1988), by Peggy McIntosh; available for $4.00 from the Wellesley College Center for Research on Women, Wellesley MA 02181 The working paper contains a longer list of privileges. This excerpted essay is reprinted from the Winter 1990 issue of Independent School. 31. I can choose to ignore developments in minority writing and minority activist programs, or disparage them, or learn from them, but in any case, I can find ways to be more or less protected from negative consequences of any of these choices. 32. My culture gives me little fear about ignoring the perspectives and powers of people of other races. 33. I am not made acutely aware that my shape, bearing or body odor will be taken as a reflection on my race. 34. I can worry about racism without being seen as self-interested or self-seeking. 35. I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having my co-workers on the job suspect that I got it because of my race. 36. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether it had racial overtones. 37. I can be pretty sure of finding people who would be willing to talk with me and advise me about my next steps, professionally. 38. I can think over many options, social, political, imaginative or professional, without asking whether a person of my race would be accepted or allowed to do what I want to do. 39. I can be late to a meeting without having the lateness reflect on my race. 40. I can choose public accommodation without fearing that people of my race cannot get in or will be mistreated in the places I have chosen. 41. I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me. 42. I can arrange my activities so that I will never have to experience feelings of rejection owing to my race. 43. If I have low credibility as a leader I can be sure that my race is not the problem. 44. I can easily find academic courses and institutions which give attention only to people of my race. 45. I can expect figurative language and imagery in all of the arts to testify to experiences of my race. 46. I can chose blemish cover or bandages in "flesh" color and have them more or less match my skin. 47. I can travel alone or with my spouse without expecting embarrassment or hostility in those who deal with us. Peggy McIntosh is associate director of the Wellesley Collage Center for Research on Women. This essay is excerpted from Working Paper 189. "White Privilege and Male Privilege: A Personal Account of Coming To See Correspondences through Work in Women's Studies" (1988), by Peggy McIntosh; available for $4.00 from the Wellesley College Center for Research on Women, Wellesley MA 02181 The working paper contains a longer list of privileges. This excerpted essay is reprinted from the Winter 1990 issue of Independent School. 48. I have no difficulty finding neighborhoods where people approve of our household. 49. My children are given texts and classes which implicitly support our kind of family unit and do not turn them against my choice of domestic partnership. 50. I will feel welcomed and "normal" in the usual walks of public life, institutional and social.

Sorry, but I stopped reading at number 1. If you aren't racist then why would you care about whether or not you are hanging out with "your own race"? Also, are you really going to claim that black people can't easily arrange to hang out with other black people?

Also your first poster is moronic. Schools don't teach "white" history they teach "American" history.

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#94 Posted by poeticwarrior (3526 posts) - - Show Bio
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#95 Posted by Tobi-wan (83 posts) - - Show Bio

Are you really that unwilling to acknowledge that discrimination has occurred when a poor white kid from Appalachia with good grades doesn't get into a college that accepts a rich black kid with poorer grades. If someone is denied something only because of her color that's discrimination...period. The reality is the rich kid will be accepted into a college somewhere. His money will find a way, but the poorer white kid has fewer options.

If someone competes for a job and is the more qualified candidate but it is given to someone else because of affirmative action that is discrimination. Discriminating against anyone because of the color of their skin is racist. Arguing that it is OK to employee racist policies to correct past injustices doesn't change the fact that discrimination is discrimination. There are other ways to address past injustices.

If it is OK for one race or group to do something, logic dictates then it should be OK for another group to do the same thing if everyone has equal privileges. If someone started talking about having white pride or a white's only college they would be labeled as racist; it would be unacceptable. Arguing that black people should be given this privilege because of past discrimination only proves the point that black privilege is indeed real. Can't you see that you are justifying and rationalizing the privilege? There are certain activities that can be engaged in by one group that are deemed acceptable and are not granted to another - that's the very definition of privilege.

"power itself engenders the overindulgence of resistance from the dominant group(whites) to incorporate any changes that, in their minds, seen in opposition to their interests"

Whites feel like affirmative action threatens their position in society, it interferes with their interests and property rights in whiteness. So they will claim "reverse racism" but then leave gender out of the debate. Oh yeah because white women do not benefit the most from affirmative action out of everyone. Let's not forget that most blacks and Hispanics do not benefit from affirmative action because they are oppressed by other policies and forces like the "War on Drugs", Police brutality, etc.

There are no black only colleges, anyone can attend a black university. Anyone can win an award at the BET awards, etc. Please stop mentioning "the poor white" that is being used too much.

Anyways the master's tool would never dismantle the master's house.

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#96 Edited by IHateAnimu (206 posts) - - Show Bio

You DO know we, as the western nations, ignored the atrocities in Rwanda on the simple fact that "Black people can't be racist! Only white folk can commit genocide.". Hotel Rwanda, a film based on the Tutsi massacres, was in development hell because "this will give people a bad impression on Africa and Africans.". Most of the men responsible for the genocide are still free because aid groups smuggled them out rather then have them tried for war crimes. the same is still done today.

Robert Mugabe is ignored, Armenian holocaust is ignored, Imperial Japan is ignore, every knows every detail of the Jewish holocaust. does anyone notice a trend here? honestly, I'd like an insightful answer here!

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#97 Posted by MyLittleFascist (31164 posts) - - Show Bio

@zetsumoto: I'm not really sure what you're trying to say? Poor black people have seen white people and other races before.

That's not the point. The point is that blacks in ghetto neighborhoods can be quite racist. Same with Asians in bad Asian neighborhoods, and hispanics in bad Hispanic neighborhoods. Your example of racism in some backwoods deliverance style town is cherry picking at it's best.

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#98 Posted by just_sayin (3315 posts) - - Show Bio

@poeticwarrior: I think you have a legitimate point about ethnic roles going to white actors when it doesn't happen very often the other direction.

My one hope from the conversation is that people will recognize that it is ridiculous to argue for affirmative action and the need for a black tv network, colleges, beauty pageants, etc. and then to claim that black privilege does not exist. When you give what you believe is a valid argument for the existence of these things to continue for the betterment of black people, it proves that the privileges do indeed exist. You can't logically argue for the continuation of a privilege if it doesn't exist.

People claim that white people refuse to admit that white privilege is a thing. In my experience black people have just as much trouble recognizing black privilege. I'm not arguing for the continuation of white privilege and I'm not saying that white and black privilege cancel each other out. All race based privileges will need to addressed though for true equality to exist.

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#99 Posted by poeticwarrior (3526 posts) - - Show Bio

@cameron83 said:

@zetsumoto: I'm not really sure what you're trying to say? Poor black people have seen white people and other races before.

That's not the point. The point is that blacks in ghetto neighborhoods can be quite racist. Same with Asians in bad Asian neighborhoods, and hispanics in bad Hispanic neighborhoods. Your example of racism in some backwoods deliverance style town is cherry picking at it's best.

Is there a bad Asian neighborhood? I've never been to one nor know if any exist. Usually just Black and Hispanic.

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#100 Posted by Tobi-wan (83 posts) - - Show Bio

Sorry, but I stopped reading at number 1. If you aren't racist then why would you care about whether or not you are hanging out with "your own race"? Also, are you really going to claim that black people can't easily arrange to hang out with other black people?

Also your first poster is moronic. Schools don't teach "white" history they teach "American" history.

The same thing. Children are taught how whites made America what it is. Nonwhites get a section in a chapter, I can't even say they receive a chapter of attention.

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Of course ignore the whole post because you don't understand the first point. If colored people got together people would think they are up to something. Plus this can apply to any situation like in foreign countries, etc.