If plants are alive is being vegan any more moral then being omnivorous or carnivorous

  • 67 results
  • 1
  • 2
Avatar image for jagernutt
#51 Posted by jagernutt (17623 posts) - - Show Bio

@bumpyboo said:
@jagernutt said:
@bumpyboo said:
@lan_fan said:
@bumpyboo said:

Well. This thread led me to read this, and now I am in a bad place

https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/botany/plants-feel-pain.htm

According to researchers at the Institute for Applied Physics at the University of Bonn in Germany, plants release gases that are the equivalent of crying out in pain. Using a laser-powered microphone, researchers have picked up sound waves produced by plants releasing gases when cut or injured. Although not audible to the human ear, the secret voices of plants have revealed that cucumbers scream when they are sick, and flowers whine when their leaves are cut [source: Deutsche Welle].

There's also evidence that plants can hear themselves being eaten. Researchers at the University of Missouri-Columbia found that plants understand and respond to chewing sounds made by caterpillars that are dining on them. As soon as the plants hear the noises, they respond with several defense mechanisms [source: Feinberg].

Vegans should feel bad about themselves for preying on the absolute defenseless. At least cows and chickens can move, and try to fight back when they feel threatened.

After reading this post, I can longer bring myself to eat anything unless I've given it a fair chance to defend itself in the ring.

I had a pet Alligator. They make's for some good eatens.

Out of curiosity, I would have to try that

If you go with me to the Everglades in South Florida I know a restaurant that makes the sweetest Gator tail nugget's and the salsa is delishimo😋.

Avatar image for lord_tenebrous
#52 Posted by Lord_Tenebrous (2441 posts) - - Show Bio

How dare you eat that coconut! It wanted to grow into a nice big tree.

Avatar image for doofasa
#53 Posted by Doofasa (2229 posts) - - Show Bio

@lunacyde: Yeah I agree mate. Ideally we can achieve a balance between our level of consumption and an ecologically friendly and sustainable way of producing meat. Like you've suggested a more naturalistic approach that takes advantage of animals consuming what we don't would be a potential solution.

Avatar image for mutant1230
#54 Posted by Mutant1230 (6892 posts) - - Show Bio

@mortein said:
@supermanthor said:
@bumpyboo said:

Well. This thread led me to read this, and now I am in a bad place

https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/botany/plants-feel-pain.htm

According to researchers at the Institute for Applied Physics at the University of Bonn in Germany, plants release gases that are the equivalent of crying out in pain. Using a laser-powered microphone, researchers have picked up sound waves produced by plants releasing gases when cut or injured. Although not audible to the human ear, the secret voices of plants have revealed that cucumbers scream when they are sick, and flowers whine when their leaves are cut [source: Deutsche Welle].

There's also evidence that plants can hear themselves being eaten. Researchers at the University of Missouri-Columbia found that plants understand and respond to chewing sounds made by caterpillars that are dining on them. As soon as the plants hear the noises, they respond with several defense mechanisms [source: Feinberg].

now i am scared

If you kick my car it starts the alarm, it's basically as if it's screaming in pain, but it doesn't mean it feels anything, doesn't mean it has a subjective conscious experience of pain.

Subjective consciousness is either an emerging property of biology or it is a fundamental property of matter.

If it is an emerging property of biology, then it must have evolved at some point, as there's no reason to assume that the first complex self-replicating molecules had any more consciousness than rocks. Consciousness is likely in some way related to the complex neurochemical systems in our brains. In the end, the only thing I can be certain of is that I have subjective conscious experience, and other people seem to be almost identical to me, so I'm assuming they are conscious to. Other mammals are very similar to us so they likely have it also, but the farther away we move away from humans on the evolutionary tree, the less likely it is that the lifeform we find there will be conscious. And lettuce is pretty far away from us.

I'm not following your line of reasoning.

Comparing a car alarm to a plant doesn't really work, since human beings created the car and know indisputably the meaning behind it's alarm system. To alert the owner if their property is being tampered with. We didn't create plants though and don't know the meaning behind its own "alarm" system. What purpose would it serve other than to signify it feels some sort of negative stimuli towards damage? Unlike with a car, the plant isn't owned by something that would need to be alerted of its danger nor can we make that comparison when we don't know all of the internal mechanics of plant life the way we do cars.

Do you believe fish or reptiles feel pain? Because their brain and bodies are quite different from humans and evolved on a highly divergent path. The same logic you're using to dismiss plant sentience can be used against them in a largely similar fashion.

Online
Avatar image for wilkiins17
#55 Posted by Wilkiins17 (510 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

Avatar image for darkthunder
#56 Posted by Darkthunder (3474 posts) - - Show Bio

@wilkiins17: plants may be alive but no one considers them alive all because they don't walk and talk like most living creatures. So no

Avatar image for johnnyz256
#57 Posted by JohnnyZ256 (6514 posts) - - Show Bio

@eichholtz: If we are mere animals, then there's nothing wrong with murder and subsequent cannibalism. Animals kill other animals all of the time, including their own kind.

Of course, humans aren't mere animals, and I think deep down everyone recognizes this.

Avatar image for mortein
#58 Edited by Mortein (6062 posts) - - Show Bio

@mutant1230 said:

I'm not following your line of reasoning.

Comparing a car alarm to a plant doesn't really work, since human beings created the car and know indisputably the meaning behind it's alarm system. To alert the owner if their property is being tampered with. We didn't create plants though and don't know the meaning behind its own "alarm" system. What purpose would it serve other than to signify it feels some sort of negative stimuli towards damage? Unlike with a car, the plant isn't owned by something that would need to be alerted of its danger nor can we make that comparison when we don't know all of the internal mechanics of plant life the way we do cars.

Do you believe fish or reptiles feel pain? Because their brain and bodies are quite different from humans and evolved on a highly divergent path. The same logic you're using to dismiss plant sentience can be used against them in a largely similar fashion.

The car analogy is there to illustrate the fact that just because a system has a way to react to being damaged, it doesn't mean that a system has a consciousness which feels the pain. The evidence which is showing that a plant has a way to respond to damage tells us nothing about whether the plant has a consciousness.

For all I know, all the matter in the universe could potentilly have consciousness, but if we assume that consciousness is an emerging property of biology, then the only viable candidate for its emergance is a complex brain.

If each of your cells in your body have no consciousness, then there's no reason to assume that single celled organisms do. There's also no reason to assume that consciousness emerges once cells start clumping together, or once cells in that clump start to specialize. We know that our consciousness is in some way connected to our thoughts and feelings and memories, and all of those are produced by the brain, so it could be that consciousness is also produced by the brain.

In the end, I can only be certain that I have consciousness and the farther away from me on the evolutionary tree some lifeform is, the less likely it is that it will have subjective conscious experiences. And if I have to kill something to survive, it's better to kill that lifeform which is less likely to have consciousness.

Humans>other mammals>fish>bugs>plants>lab grown meat>food derived from inanimate matter.

Avatar image for arranvid
#59 Posted by ArranVid (2804 posts) - - Show Bio

It's a cruel world we live in tbh...one thing must eat another thing

Avatar image for mutant1230
#60 Posted by Mutant1230 (6892 posts) - - Show Bio

@mortein:

The car analogy is there to illustrate the fact that just because a system has a way to react to being damaged, it doesn't mean that a system has a consciousness which feels the pain. The evidence which is showing that a plant has a way to respond to damage tells us nothing about whether the plant has a consciousness.

It's possible that certain creatures have the capacity but not to feel suffering or agony. But the car analogy doesn't work because we obviously know it's not conscious since we designed it. You'd be better off making an analogy to microscopic organisms whom are living, but not necessarily considered fully conscious the way humans are.

For all I know, all the matter in the universe could potentilly have consciousness, but if we assume that consciousness is an emerging property of biology, then the only viable candidate for its emergance is a complex brain.

Well, then according to scientists plants would fit this criteria. They have brains that are able to make decisions that ensure the survival of their species and themselves. Is this definitive proof plants feel pain the way humans do and are on the same level of consciousness? I don't know lol But the same logic can be applied towards fish and bugs all the same.

If each of your cells in your body have no consciousness, then there's no reason to assume that single celled organisms do. There's also no reason to assume that consciousness emerges once cells start clumping together, or once cells in that clump start to specialize. We know that our consciousness is in some way connected to our thoughts and feelings and memories, and all of those are produced by the brain, so it could be that consciousness is also produced by the brain.

The testing of consciousness isn't nearly as mysterious as you're making it out to be. There are a multitude of ways we can test if a creature has sentience. It's the same way we figured out dogs and pigs have feelings when we initially believed for thousands of year they didn't. The same have been done for plants and the results have been a lot more complex than many would like to believe. Again, not saying this is 100% proof plants feel pain and are just as complex as humans, but they're likely not just objects either.

In the end, I can only be certain that I have consciousness and the farther away from me on the evolutionary tree some lifeform is, the less likely it is that it will have subjective conscious experiences. And if I have to kill something to survive, it's better to kill that lifeform which is less likely to have consciousness.

Humans>other mammals>fish>bugs>plants>lab grown meat>food derived from inanimate matter.

You're drawing a completely arbitrary line by insisting Fish and Bugs, who have entirely different evolutionary paths to us are conscious but plants aren't. For no reason other than they... look too different I guess. We have universal tests for consciousness and they too can be applied to plants and the results have been as conclusive for them as they have for Fish and Bugs. I ask again, where is the line drawn? Why do you believe one and not the other? Despite the science being controversial for all three and all of them being starkly different from humans?

Online
Avatar image for diesani
#61 Posted by Diesani (38 posts) - - Show Bio

Plants actually do feel pain. The smell of cut grass is a distress signal fyi

Avatar image for wilkiins17
#62 Edited by Wilkiins17 (510 posts) - - Show Bio

bump

Avatar image for wilkiins17
#63 Posted by Wilkiins17 (510 posts) - - Show Bio

bump

Avatar image for alextheboss
#64 Posted by AlexTheBoss (18900 posts) - - Show Bio

@wilkiins17: I’m not a vegan or vegetarian, but come on, this is pretty self explanatory. Animals can feel pain and suffering and are treated poorly in slaughter farms. And it’s not being an animal that makes them special. Clams, starfish, and sponges are all animals, but they have no brains. Morally they are like killing plants. A cow or pig that has intelligence on par with a dog is not comparable. We aren’t allowed to kill and eat apes or humans due to their intelligence. You know humans are animals too right? This is not a question of plants vs animals, but the suffering of sentient life.

I’m not against eating meat, but I think the animals should be treated more humanely so they don’t suffer.

Avatar image for wilkiins17
#65 Posted by Wilkiins17 (510 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

Avatar image for wilkiins17
#66 Posted by Wilkiins17 (510 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

Avatar image for bladeoffury
#67 Posted by BladeOfFury (3459 posts) - - Show Bio

Plants don't have a nervous system. They can't feel pain.