If plants are alive is being vegan any more moral then being omnivorous or carnivorous

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Wilkiins17

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#1  Edited By Wilkiins17

I know what some of you are going to say "well its different because plants can't feel pain and aren't the same as animals". but that doesn't change the fact that plants are living breathing things. the eat, grow, reproduce and die. so if the'er any vegans out there that don't eat meat for moral reason can you please explain to me what make eating meat and eating plants different.

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Au_141

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Being carnivorous is probably worse for the planet so even then there’s still a reason to consider cutting down on meat consumption if not being vegan/vegetarian. I’m not vegan btw

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IndomitableRegal

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Sigh. Big sigh.

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deactivated-5da8e253e9df8

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Iron_Tiger

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#5  Edited By Iron_Tiger

Eating meat isn't immoral nor is it bad for the planet or your body. If that's the case, then eating plants would be just as bad. So, no.

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ANTHP2000

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#6 ANTHP2000  Online

I can't believe how stupid what I just read is.

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Lan_Fan

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BumpyBoo

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#8 BumpyBoo  Moderator

Well. This thread led me to read this, and now I am in a bad place

https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/botany/plants-feel-pain.htm

According to researchers at the Institute for Applied Physics at the University of Bonn in Germany, plants release gases that are the equivalent of crying out in pain. Using a laser-powered microphone, researchers have picked up sound waves produced by plants releasing gases when cut or injured. Although not audible to the human ear, the secret voices of plants have revealed that cucumbers scream when they are sick, and flowers whine when their leaves are cut [source: Deutsche Welle].

There's also evidence that plants can hear themselves being eaten. Researchers at the University of Missouri-Columbia found that plants understand and respond to chewing sounds made by caterpillars that are dining on them. As soon as the plants hear the noises, they respond with several defense mechanisms [source: Feinberg].

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ANTHP2000

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#9 ANTHP2000  Online

@bumpyboo said:

Well. This thread led me to read this, and now I am in a bad place

https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/botany/plants-feel-pain.htm

According to researchers at the Institute for Applied Physics at the University of Bonn in Germany, plants release gases that are the equivalent of crying out in pain. Using a laser-powered microphone, researchers have picked up sound waves produced by plants releasing gases when cut or injured. Although not audible to the human ear, the secret voices of plants have revealed that cucumbers scream when they are sick, and flowers whine when their leaves are cut [source: Deutsche Welle].

There's also evidence that plants can hear themselves being eaten. Researchers at the University of Missouri-Columbia found that plants understand and respond to chewing sounds made by caterpillars that are dining on them. As soon as the plants hear the noises, they respond with several defense mechanisms [source: Feinberg].

Are you like trying to lead me to starvation?

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BumpyBoo

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#10 BumpyBoo  Moderator

@anthp2000: Messed up, right? I'm a veggie too XD

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Lan_Fan

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@bumpyboo said:

Well. This thread led me to read this, and now I am in a bad place

https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/botany/plants-feel-pain.htm

According to researchers at the Institute for Applied Physics at the University of Bonn in Germany, plants release gases that are the equivalent of crying out in pain. Using a laser-powered microphone, researchers have picked up sound waves produced by plants releasing gases when cut or injured. Although not audible to the human ear, the secret voices of plants have revealed that cucumbers scream when they are sick, and flowers whine when their leaves are cut [source: Deutsche Welle].

There's also evidence that plants can hear themselves being eaten. Researchers at the University of Missouri-Columbia found that plants understand and respond to chewing sounds made by caterpillars that are dining on them. As soon as the plants hear the noises, they respond with several defense mechanisms [source: Feinberg].

Vegans should feel bad about themselves for preying on the absolute defenseless. At least cows and chickens can move, and try to fight back when they feel threatened.

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BumpyBoo

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#12 BumpyBoo  Moderator

@lan_fan said:
@bumpyboo said:

Well. This thread led me to read this, and now I am in a bad place

https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/botany/plants-feel-pain.htm

According to researchers at the Institute for Applied Physics at the University of Bonn in Germany, plants release gases that are the equivalent of crying out in pain. Using a laser-powered microphone, researchers have picked up sound waves produced by plants releasing gases when cut or injured. Although not audible to the human ear, the secret voices of plants have revealed that cucumbers scream when they are sick, and flowers whine when their leaves are cut [source: Deutsche Welle].

There's also evidence that plants can hear themselves being eaten. Researchers at the University of Missouri-Columbia found that plants understand and respond to chewing sounds made by caterpillars that are dining on them. As soon as the plants hear the noises, they respond with several defense mechanisms [source: Feinberg].

Vegans should feel bad about themselves for preying on the absolute defenseless. At least cows and chickens can move, and try to fight back when they feel threatened.

After reading this post, I can longer bring myself to eat anything unless I've given it a fair chance to defend itself in the ring.

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Supermanthor

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@bumpyboo said:

Well. This thread led me to read this, and now I am in a bad place

https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/botany/plants-feel-pain.htm

According to researchers at the Institute for Applied Physics at the University of Bonn in Germany, plants release gases that are the equivalent of crying out in pain. Using a laser-powered microphone, researchers have picked up sound waves produced by plants releasing gases when cut or injured. Although not audible to the human ear, the secret voices of plants have revealed that cucumbers scream when they are sick, and flowers whine when their leaves are cut [source: Deutsche Welle].

There's also evidence that plants can hear themselves being eaten. Researchers at the University of Missouri-Columbia found that plants understand and respond to chewing sounds made by caterpillars that are dining on them. As soon as the plants hear the noises, they respond with several defense mechanisms [source: Feinberg].

now i am scared

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SocaJunkie

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Solution: starve ourselves because eating anything means something will suffer.

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jb681131

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Eating meat or plants is to me as cruel in theory. It is a nutural thing, every living thing has to eat. Humans are omnivorus so we should eat meat as well as plants.

But the thing is humans have expended too much. We are too many. So the only way to have meat (at each meal) for everyone, is by having factory farms in wich animal are stacked with poor living conditions. That is real cruelty.

So the right solution, would be to reduce the quantity of meat we eat or to turn to insect meat.

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Mortein

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Life on it's own is irrelevant. The only thing in the universe that's important are subjective experiences of concious creatures.

In a universe without conciocness it doesn't matter in which why you rearrange it's atoms.

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Lan_Fan

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@bumpyboo: Yup, we're learning new things everyday.

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johnsmjs36

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Nope. Its irrelevant.

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LeeM724

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Morality is a made up thing. Who cares? Just do what you gotta do to survive.

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deactivated-5cdc9a3e08b98

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just_sayin

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Of course being a vegan is morally worse! A cow, deer or pig has legs so they can at least try and run away, but a poor vegetable has no legs. It can't run away. It just isn't fair. It can't escape the mass murdering vegan.

Plants know when they are being eaten and respond to the "pain". Unlike meat eaters, vegans murder 10,000s of living plants each year. For sheer lives lost - vegans are more immoral.

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BOC

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@bumpyboo said:
@lan_fan said:
@bumpyboo said:

Well. This thread led me to read this, and now I am in a bad place

https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/botany/plants-feel-pain.htm

According to researchers at the Institute for Applied Physics at the University of Bonn in Germany, plants release gases that are the equivalent of crying out in pain. Using a laser-powered microphone, researchers have picked up sound waves produced by plants releasing gases when cut or injured. Although not audible to the human ear, the secret voices of plants have revealed that cucumbers scream when they are sick, and flowers whine when their leaves are cut [source: Deutsche Welle].

There's also evidence that plants can hear themselves being eaten. Researchers at the University of Missouri-Columbia found that plants understand and respond to chewing sounds made by caterpillars that are dining on them. As soon as the plants hear the noises, they respond with several defense mechanisms [source: Feinberg].

Vegans should feel bad about themselves for preying on the absolute defenseless. At least cows and chickens can move, and try to fight back when they feel threatened.

After reading this post, I can longer bring myself to eat anything unless I've given it a fair chance to defend itself in the ring.

This is why I am a breatharian.

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Mortein

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@bumpyboo said:

Well. This thread led me to read this, and now I am in a bad place

https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/botany/plants-feel-pain.htm

According to researchers at the Institute for Applied Physics at the University of Bonn in Germany, plants release gases that are the equivalent of crying out in pain. Using a laser-powered microphone, researchers have picked up sound waves produced by plants releasing gases when cut or injured. Although not audible to the human ear, the secret voices of plants have revealed that cucumbers scream when they are sick, and flowers whine when their leaves are cut [source: Deutsche Welle].

There's also evidence that plants can hear themselves being eaten. Researchers at the University of Missouri-Columbia found that plants understand and respond to chewing sounds made by caterpillars that are dining on them. As soon as the plants hear the noises, they respond with several defense mechanisms [source: Feinberg].

now i am scared

If you kick my car it starts the alarm, it's basically as if it's screaming in pain, but it doesn't mean it feels anything, doesn't mean it has a subjective conscious experience of pain.

Subjective consciousness is either an emerging property of biology or it is a fundamental property of matter.

If it is an emerging property of biology, then it must have evolved at some point, as there's no reason to assume that the first complex self-replicating molecules had any more consciousness than rocks. Consciousness is likely in some way related to the complex neurochemical systems in our brains. In the end, the only thing I can be certain of is that I have subjective conscious experience, and other people seem to be almost identical to me, so I'm assuming they are conscious to. Other mammals are very similar to us so they likely have it also, but the farther away we move away from humans on the evolutionary tree, the less likely it is that the lifeform we find there will be conscious. And lettuce is pretty far away from us.

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tethadam

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They dont feel pain (I think)

They are not conscious

Animals feel pain and are concious, although im not against eating meat.

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just_sayin

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At least the animals are dead when meat eaters start eating them. Poor vegetables. They know when a mass murdering vegan is eating them alive!

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BumpyBoo

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#26 BumpyBoo  Moderator

@mortein said:
@supermanthor said:
@bumpyboo said:

Well. This thread led me to read this, and now I am in a bad place

https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/botany/plants-feel-pain.htm

According to researchers at the Institute for Applied Physics at the University of Bonn in Germany, plants release gases that are the equivalent of crying out in pain. Using a laser-powered microphone, researchers have picked up sound waves produced by plants releasing gases when cut or injured. Although not audible to the human ear, the secret voices of plants have revealed that cucumbers scream when they are sick, and flowers whine when their leaves are cut [source: Deutsche Welle].

There's also evidence that plants can hear themselves being eaten. Researchers at the University of Missouri-Columbia found that plants understand and respond to chewing sounds made by caterpillars that are dining on them. As soon as the plants hear the noises, they respond with several defense mechanisms [source: Feinberg].

now i am scared

If you kick my car it starts the alarm, it's basically as if it's screaming in pain, but it doesn't mean it feels anything, doesn't mean it has a subjective conscious experience of pain.

Subjective consciousness is either an emerging property of biology or it is a fundamental property of matter.

If it is an emerging property of biology, then it must have evolved at some point, as there's no reason to assume that the first complex self-replicating molecules had any more consciousness than rocks. Consciousness is likely in some way related to the complex neurochemical systems in our brains. In the end, the only thing I can be certain of is that I have subjective conscious experience, and other people seem to be almost identical to me, so I'm assuming they are conscious to. Other mammals are very similar to us so they likely have it also, but the farther away we move away from humans on the evolutionary tree, the less likely it is that the lifeform we find there will be conscious. And lettuce is pretty far away from us.

I like this answer.

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The-Finger-Snap

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@just_sayin: @lan_fan: OK LMAO

OT:OK seriously people it's just the way of life. All living things must eat to survive. There is no morality behind it, a body runs on food.

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Wilkiins17

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kalkent

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It isn't immoral to eat meat. Humans are omnivorous.

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SpareHeadOne

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Is it more moral for carnivorous plants to eat other plants?

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BatmanPlusJay

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One time I stabbed a tree and my niece told me to stop because trees have feelings. I said "lol that's some bullshit" and she told me to ask my mom. I did, my mom said trees do indeed have feelings. Shit had me amazed that trees lived their lives doing the same nothing every day but apparently had feelings. I was super young, but I later figured my mom just told me that so I'd stop carving the tree up.

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BatmanPlusJay

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@bumpyboo: So what do we do with this information now? Are we supposed to not walk on grass to keep from committing plant genocide?

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BatmanPlusJay

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@just_sayin: @lan_fan: OK LMAO

OT:OK seriously people it's just the way of life. All living things must eat to survive. There is no morality behind it, a body runs on food.

Yeah that's what they all say until I try to put human on the menu, then everyone's up and arms. The hypocrisy.

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BatmanPlusJay

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SpareHeadOne

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@batmanplusjay:

I was that tree that you were hacking into. I was going to marry the Gorgeous poplar down the road but she rejected me when she saw my scars, you heartless bastard.

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EICHHOLTZ

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Does the Lion feel bad about eating a gazelle? or does the bear feel bad for the fish? I understand we have higher brain functions and empathy. We never want another living thing to suffer and that is completely understandable, but it boils down to we are animals and we eat animals to survive. if you want to cut meat out of your diet for ethical reasons more power to you, but no one should shame anyone based off their diet.

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LuminousHydra

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#37  Edited By LuminousHydra

This is what happens when the average meat eater knows squat about moral philosophy.

Yes, plants are living things but I am not convinced that I have to value something in virtue of it being living itself. I dont value the life of a plant, the same way I dont value the thousands of skin cells when someone gets cut by a serrated object. I do However, value the thinking entity that experiences the pain from being cut by those objects for the reason being that it is conscious and experiences pain.

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MarvelandDCfan24

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Eating meat is not immoral and if you say it is you are an idiot. Humans are omnivores and need a balence of meat and plants to be optimally healthy.

People can live and eat how they choose. People are free to eat meat or be vegan. No one is more superior for choosing one lifestyle over the other nor should they push it on others.

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SpareHeadOne

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Eating meat is immoral and you are an idiot. Humans are omnipresent and don't need a balence of meat and plants to be optically healthy.

People can die and eat cow or hay as they choose. People are not free to eat meat or be vegan or drink worm juice. No one is more superior than a fruitarian. Choosing one lifestyle over the other should be pushed on others.

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Wilkiins17

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deactivated-5da8e253e9df8

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@bumpyboo said:
@lan_fan said:
@bumpyboo said:

Well. This thread led me to read this, and now I am in a bad place

https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/botany/plants-feel-pain.htm

According to researchers at the Institute for Applied Physics at the University of Bonn in Germany, plants release gases that are the equivalent of crying out in pain. Using a laser-powered microphone, researchers have picked up sound waves produced by plants releasing gases when cut or injured. Although not audible to the human ear, the secret voices of plants have revealed that cucumbers scream when they are sick, and flowers whine when their leaves are cut [source: Deutsche Welle].

There's also evidence that plants can hear themselves being eaten. Researchers at the University of Missouri-Columbia found that plants understand and respond to chewing sounds made by caterpillars that are dining on them. As soon as the plants hear the noises, they respond with several defense mechanisms [source: Feinberg].

Vegans should feel bad about themselves for preying on the absolute defenseless. At least cows and chickens can move, and try to fight back when they feel threatened.

After reading this post, I can longer bring myself to eat anything unless I've given it a fair chance to defend itself in the ring.

I had a pet Alligator. They make's for some good eatens.

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Doofasa

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#42  Edited By Doofasa

From a sustainability and environmental impact perspective it is absolutely more moral to eat less meat and more plants.

Meat requires far more land clearing (and subsequent habitation and flora destruction), water, energy (plants to feed the animals), and produces far more waste (greenhouse gases etc) then edible plants per amount of food generated. That's without going into the morality of the conditions that many animals that are bred for eating are kept in.

Like it or not the current rate of consumption of meat per person isn't sustainable over even the short-term. I'm not advocating for vegetarianism or veganism (and I'm neither of these) but a reduction in the level of consumption is necessary.

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Lunacyde

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#43  Edited By Lunacyde  Moderator

@doofasa said:

From a sustainability and environmental impact perspective it is absolutely more moral to eat less meat and more plants.

Meat requires far more land clearing (and subsequent habitation and flora destruction), water, energy (plants to feed the animals), and produces far more waste (greenhouse gases etc) then edible plants per amount of food generated. That's without going into the morality of the conditions that many animals that are bred for eating are kept in.

Like it or not the current rate of consumption of meat per person isn't sustainable over even the short-term. I'm not advocating for vegetarianism or veganism (and I'm neither of these) but a reduction in the level consumption is necessary.

Yes, agreed, except I will say that the ideal diet for the environment does involve some meat consumption actually. More plants and less meat in the diet is definitely better for the individual and the planet, but some meat is actually better than no meat in both cases. I try to limit myself to eating meat twice a week at the absolute most.

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Doofasa

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#44  Edited By Doofasa

@lunacyde said:
@doofasa said:

From a sustainability and environmental impact perspective it is absolutely more moral to eat less meat and more plants.

Meat requires far more land clearing (and subsequent habitation and flora destruction), water, energy (plants to feed the animals), and produces far more waste (greenhouse gases etc) then edible plants per amount of food generated. That's without going into the morality of the conditions that many animals that are bred for eating are kept in.

Like it or not the current rate of consumption of meat per person isn't sustainable over even the short-term. I'm not advocating for vegetarianism or veganism (and I'm neither of these) but a reduction in the level consumption is necessary.

Yes, agreed, except I will say that the ideal diet for the environment does involve some meat consumption actually. More plants and less meat in the diet is definitely better for the individual and the planet, but some meat is actually better than no meat in both cases. I try to limit myself to eating meat twice a week at the absolute most.

Yeah my wife and I are down to about three days a week, but we'll probably reduce it to two now that our vego recipe repertoire has expanded.

That's an interesting point about a certain level of meat consumption being good for the environment, do you know of any research/resources I could read that conclude that?

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Lunacyde

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#45  Edited By Lunacyde  Moderator

@doofasa: It mostly has to do with two main points.

1. The calorie content of meat vs. vegetables. In order to get the same amount of calories from vegetables, you have to eat a lot more vegetables, which actually means more water, energy, and greenhouse gases.

2. Livestock like cattle are actually ideally suited to maximizing some natural environments that are poor for growing crops, which means that they can increase our food producing efficiency by utilizing land that couldn't be used to generate food or would be less efficient to generate food otherwise.

We should try to maximize the natural roles and abilities of different animals and crops to get the most out of our food system. Animals are a natural part of the environment, and when managed correctly they can help maintain a healthy and productive environment for food production.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/going-vegan-isnt-actually-th/

https://www.sciencealert.com/vegetarian-and-healthy-diets-may-actually-be-worse-for-the-environment-study-finds

https://www.motherearthnews.com/nature-and-environment/environmental-policy/the-vegetarianism-myth-zmaz10jjzraw

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BumpyBoo

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#46 BumpyBoo  Moderator

@bumpyboo said:
@lan_fan said:
@bumpyboo said:

Well. This thread led me to read this, and now I am in a bad place

https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/botany/plants-feel-pain.htm

According to researchers at the Institute for Applied Physics at the University of Bonn in Germany, plants release gases that are the equivalent of crying out in pain. Using a laser-powered microphone, researchers have picked up sound waves produced by plants releasing gases when cut or injured. Although not audible to the human ear, the secret voices of plants have revealed that cucumbers scream when they are sick, and flowers whine when their leaves are cut [source: Deutsche Welle].

There's also evidence that plants can hear themselves being eaten. Researchers at the University of Missouri-Columbia found that plants understand and respond to chewing sounds made by caterpillars that are dining on them. As soon as the plants hear the noises, they respond with several defense mechanisms [source: Feinberg].

Vegans should feel bad about themselves for preying on the absolute defenseless. At least cows and chickens can move, and try to fight back when they feel threatened.

After reading this post, I can longer bring myself to eat anything unless I've given it a fair chance to defend itself in the ring.

I had a pet Alligator. They make's for some good eatens.

Out of curiosity, I would have to try that

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Doofasa

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@lunacyde said:

@doofasa: It mostly has to do with two main points.

1. The calorie content of meat vs. vegetables. In order to get the same amount of calories from vegetables, you have to eat a lot more vegetables, which actually means more water, energy, and greenhouse gases.

2. Livestock like cattle are actually ideally suited to maximizing some natural environments that are poor for growing crops, which means that they can increase our food producing efficiency by utilizing land that couldn't be used to generate food or would be less efficient to generate food otherwise.

We should try to maximize the natural roles and abilities of different animals and crops to get the most out of our food system. Animals are a natural part of the environment, and when managed correctly they can help maintain a healthy and productive environment for food production.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/going-vegan-isnt-actually-th/

https://www.sciencealert.com/vegetarian-and-healthy-diets-may-actually-be-worse-for-the-environment-study-finds

https://www.motherearthnews.com/nature-and-environment/environmental-policy/the-vegetarianism-myth-zmaz10jjzraw

Thanks for the links mate.

Personally I think point 2 makes plenty of sense but point 1 seems a tad flawed though.

Sure meat has a higher calorie content, but the calorie content and energy resources required to create the meat is far higher then the yield in comparison to plants. For example an average chicken requires roughly 11,000 calories of food to mature to 6 weeks of age, compared to the 1400 calories that a cooked chicken contains. If the chicken was primarily fed grain (which is predominately the case for chicken and beef globally) then you've effectively used 11,000 calories of food edible to humans (and also all of the resources required to make the grain) to create a yield of 1400 calories. Even if the chicken has a natural diet of things that humans don't normally eat, like insects, plants and worms, all of those animals had to in-turn consume more calories of other animals, grasses and plants to grow then what they provided for the chicken.

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Mutant1230

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#48  Edited By Mutant1230

Livestock eat plants to survive, going Vegan/Vegetarian would actually reduce plant consumption overall.

Not trying to advocate the world go Vegan to save the plants or anything, but that's just a simple fact Omnivores consume more plants than vegetarians do.

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#49 Lunacyde  Moderator

@doofasa: Yeah, I thought of that, which is why I believe you have to take point two into account in conjunction with point 1. Let me preface this by saying I don't believe in feeding cattle or chickens grain. Ideally I want our food system to strike a balance through good ecosystem management, and to make that possible I do admit we need to decrease our meat consumption.

Most humans don't want to eat worms, nor can humans digest dirt. However, worms can digest the nutrients in soil and chickens naturally eat worms. So, in a well-balanced food system we can tap into calories and nutrients that would be otherwise unutilized by growing chicken in that way and consuming the chicken. The same goes for crickets, grubs, and other insects. Most humans wouldn't want to eat them, but through eating chicken, or even more efficiently through eating eggs the chickens produce, we can have access to those calories. Yes, those calories had to come from somewhere, but they aren't always readily accessible to humans, so they go unutilized.

Another example would be that ruminants like cows can eat grasses, which humans cannot eat, or at least cannot often eat without significant processing. Some areas of the Earth are ideal for grazing cattle, but are not fertile or wet enough to grow water intensive crops like fruits, nuts, lettuce, celery, etc. By reasonably grazing cattle in those areas humans can get the maximum potential out of the areas that could not be achieved by clearing the areas for cropland.

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True...but even some plants dissolve animals for nutrients...and no life exists without completetion with other life...for example we kill bacteria as well often unintentionally...also typically people eat the fruit or seed and don't necessarily kill the plant in the process. Our herterotropgic nature cannot be undone but at least we aren't being violent with plants...also it is far more energy and evironmentally efficient to rely on plants than animals.