@wolverinebatmanftw:
See, I think this is where a fundamental difference between us lies. You cling to this simple black/white moral dichotomy regarding “lies” and honesty. I don’t think the idea that dishonesty is wrong is universal. Sometimes, white lies can prevent or reduce harm done to someone.
I"m not against white lies but on something as big as this it's wrong on so many levels and angles. You're basically lying about who you are and what you believe. You're also stripping the right of the person to know who they're dealing with instead of treating them like an adult. Worse is if that person should ever find out that lie the level of blindsided betrayal and damage would be so much worse than it would be if they just said the truth. There isn't a justification for something this big. I've been lied to on big things before and it's devastating. You're clinging onto the idea that you're doing good and you're just not. For all people involved.
You say that “lying” to this person is wrong. Yet, you don’t provide any actual practical reasons for why this may be harmful. You just constantly repeat this moral dogma.
You say I'm spouting dogma but that's actually what you've been doing.
There are any reasons. I just gave one up there about how damaging it is. I gave you one before where you the collective consciousness to believe something that isn't true. Also damages those who don't buy into the lie and want honesty and be allowed to speak the truth without some assholes harassing them over it.
A. I don’t believe that correctly gendering a trans person is lying, because I think gender is a social and mental construct rather than something that is determined purely by a being’s reproductive organs – which is what I would refer to as sex.
The man/woman and being tied to sex of an individual has been there since the beginning of man. WHat's a social construct is the idea that it's separate. A fairly new one at that.
Even if we followed your own line of thinking it doesn't hold up. Why because it's just a social construct. Meaning you can have an apposing social construct that says the opposite. Example. This group over here say this is what that defined. This group over here who's mind follows a different track says no this is how it's defined. A social construct only works for the part of the social agrees on it. Saying it's a social construct makes your own argument mean less.
B. Misgendering trans people can have very real negative psychological impacts on them. It’s been widely reported and acknowledged that trans people are more likely to experience some form of psychological distress (ranging from something as trivial as mild anxiety to something extreme like suicidality) when they are not supported and affirmed in their transition. Now, I realise that you’re not a fan of academics, and have had made some anti-intellectual comments in the past, but I’m going to link some journal articles as evidence for these claims anyway, just in case you change your mind - 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
I fully support intellectuals just those not compromised by ideology and can look at things objectively. Something we don't get all that often. Yes they an face some hardships and that's something that need to be dealt with. But enabling a false belief isn't a good thing either. Nor is forcing people to live something that isn't true when they know it's not true. You can't through those who don't believe under the bus like that. What you do is get those people help deal with those issues that pop up. Your way is an infringing mindset to control others.
Take religion for example. Now you can respect those people and support living the life the way they do but you you can't force people who don't believe in it to live like they do. There are definitely people who lose their shit if you don't go along like you're asking people for trans. Now don't get me wrong there are definitely people who purposefully throw it in their face that religion is fake all under a guise of being truthful and speaking reality, same with the trans issue but I'm not talking about using it as a weapon like that. Frankly the issue there really is just about being an dick about it. Which goes for anything. Dicks are going to be dicks. Assholes are going to be assholes.
Edit; Should I bring up the incel thing again here? How psychologically damaging it is to go after a group of people who hate themselves and believe the the world looks on them with disgust or very least indifference, unloved?
So the bottom line is, correctly gendering someone has no practically adverse effects on that person, whilst misgendering them opens up the possibility of psychological distress that can range from mild to severe. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you maybe weren’t fully aware of this.
Well you're wrong and I just gave you at least one example forcing someone to lie and misgender can cause harm. I also gave you an explained how it can harm someone if they found out you were lying. That should be enough as I don't want to spend crazy amount of time making a whole list especially when my post is already long. Nevr mind th whole conversation.
And in any case, when you say “lying”, it’s really only “lying” from your own perspective. You believe that someone cannot change their gender despite the wealth of academic publications that suggest otherwise.
It's also science. There is a wealth of it out there. You've just chosen to believe those and not the others. THe only difference is which is in "fashion" these days. Both socially political and ideological. Just look at those guys who came out and revealing how they published a bunch of fake papers based. I think one paper was pretending to be progressive and it was just reworded mein kampf.
Now, that’s fine. There’s nothing inherently wrong about disagreeing with academic consensus. I think the ethical issue begins to arise when you project that opinion onto a trans person by misgendering them, and therefore put them at heightened risk of emotional/psychological distress.
Accept it's not misgendering. What's wrong is wrongfully basing your ideas that sex/gender are wholly separate things. Especially when your construct is actually tied closer to another social construct that being the expanded gender roll. What do men do/dress/behave/feel/look like? It is an ethical decision one I believe sides with me.
Again, you’re projecting your beliefs on someone and in doing so unnecessarily increasing the level of risk they’re at for psychological distress.
OI this stawman annoys me.
I just said I got this from people who are trans and gay. You're going to call me a liar and say no it's just projecting out of my head. I've had intense conversations with these people. You're basically calling me a liar. Maybe you should get out more. Out of that little bubble and speak to a larger variety of people. Of you think I'm a liar then there is no don't wast either of our time by starting conversations with me. You ever think it's you who are projecting? Think about it. You realize how fracked up do you have to be to think all those people are the same and think the same. What you're doing is totally writing off the voices, opinion, experiences of many trans and gay people as a projection of my mind because it doesn't fit the beliefs of your echo chamber.
Which you would think if you were so interested in their mental health you wouldn't do. The question is if you did it on purpose or not. How would I know since you think it's perfectly ok to lie. Hmm I guess thats a small example of how lying is bad. You lose that trust and damages person being lied too belief in themselves. Planting that seed of doubt in their head and seeing shadows where they might not be.
Why? Because you have to stand by your principles, I suppose. Well, I’m sorry but I think a person’s wellbeing is more important than your moral convictions.
Funny because I think it's good to have a balance of both than just throwing one out the window. Oh what you don't like that my wording sounds like I suggested that you have no morals? Kinda like you suggested I don't care about a persons well being.
Lets be clear. Your position DOES NOT have the monopoly on that even if you wrongfully believe you do. For some who talk about being black and white you're actually black and white in you're thinking. That last bit there.
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Side note. I want to ask you a question. It's something that came up in this conversation but it's something I've also noticed in your conversation with others..... How old are you generally? Don't need to give me the exact age. Do you get out much and not just locally? Do you meet a variety of different people with different views, many that appose yours? Real people not just over the internet. Real conversations where you try to find out where they're coming from while having an open mind.
I’m entirely not sure what your point is here.
You say that I think a straight person would be wrong for not wanting to have sex with a trans person – which is a point I neither made nor believe, and therefore a strawman.
It's not strawman because I never said you did. It's something I brought up. to show a flaw in your thinking when something like this gets brought up.
I think sexuality is something that transcends conscious thought, and so, I don’t blame straight or gay people that don’t wanna have sex with a trans person.
Regardless. If we go by you and trans were really a man/woman or at least truly believed they were then logically they should have no issue being with them? Why because deep down where it matters, beyond the facade we present to the world and like to think about ourselves they don't believe it.
On a side note: Think what that says to a trans person if they found out thats the reason they wont be with them. Now I know you're not concerned about the damage of the lying, breaking of trust, the betrayal but how do you feel about what damage it does it do to them after having enabled and built up this belief that they are a man/woman to be such a high thing?
If they can’t make themselves personally accept that trans people are correct about their gender identity, that’s fine. I don’t expect everyone to.
No you''re expecting them to unhealthily live something they don't believe. You honestly don't believe that's harmful? You're so wrong.
I’m just saying an issue arises when someone deliberately and consciously misgenders or is hostile towards a trans person.
One it's not misgendering from the eyes of someone who doesn't accept that a man/woman can suddenly be a woman/man. Especially if it's just a social construct. So misgendering would be to say they were a man/woman when they're a woman/man.
Two. Not gendering a trans the way they want to be is not acting hostile. Let me remind you I said I would come to the defense of trans for hostile action.
Three. There is a difference between intent. One using it in conversation an have to use a pronoun, some other identifier and purposefully saying it as a weapon. That later isn't regulated to wrongfully misgendering or not. It's more tied to dickish behavior with a sensitive subject.
Good thing you didn't say deadnaming here because those are two different things.
Basically, my opinion is that if you can’t get past your own potentially harmful beliefs, why share them?
Because we live in society and have to live with each other. It comes up. You don't seem to have a problem with that potentially harmful belief of yours. Do really need someone to show you the data on how suppressing beliefs does on people and society? It's never worked out well. People just get angrier and resentful than ever and it pushes them further inward into a little ball until they're ready to blow. Twisting them and making something venomous. That's a good method to grow extremists for those who otherwise wouldn't be. Then you'll complain omg look at all those bad people. See the big problem we still have. Yeah one you helped create. How much damage will that do to those people you're concerned about.
Just accept some level of social responsibility for the people around you, and don’t say these things.
Again funny cause you say things like this and don't realize and can be said to you. That's it's your social responsibility not to tell people to suppress themselves. You're not very liberal socially like you pretend to be are you. An actual liberal minded person doesn't say things like that. Thats a conformation at the least and an authoritarian at the most. hmm Imagine gay people and trans people were told to just accept social responsibility for the people around them back in the day when the majority of people were openly against them thought it was harmful to society to live that life. Oh wait they did and we mostly see how wrong that was.
Others would say it's your social responsibility not to enable enforce someone to think they're an attack helicopter. (It's an oldy but it still works) I wont fight them living in a hanger and but don't put expectations on me to have to call them it instead of him/her
They help no one or thing. All they do is potentially harm someone.
I know you think you're right but I've already addressed how wrong you're on this.
I’m not having a dishonest relationship. I’ve pointed out why earlier, but I’ll paste it here again: I don’t believe that correctly gendering a trans person is lying, because I think gender is a social and mental construct rather than something that is determined purely by a being’s reproductive organs – which is what I would refer to as sex.
Anyway it could be argued that you are. In your case not that you're saying something you don't believe because regardless of what you believe saying something that isn't true like gendering a man/woman who is a woman/man would be a lie.
Anyway back to my actual point. You say you're not but you're advocating for others to poison their relationship by being built on lies and saying that they don't believe. Something that isn't some small meaningless thing. You don't see how messed up that is
My relationship with a trans family member or friend is only “dishonest” by the standards of your personal beliefs.
Again I say people could ague the you're doing harm enabling something that isn't true based on your personal beliefs as wrong as they are. Now for me I would say is telling others suppressing themselves and to live something they know isn't true based on your standards of personal belief is harmful. Seems you're very selective in you care about hurting
Feel free to project those onto me all you want, but that won’t change anything about my relationships because we fundamentally disagree on the issue of transgenderism.
I would say feel free to keep accusing me of doing things yourself but it's annoying. What was this the fifth time? I didn't even project though. My point was on you advocating for someone having a dishonest relationship and lying it good. It wasn't about what you tell your family/friend. Why do I have to keep correcting you on the things I said. It was clear. By the way which is it? family or friend. Your story is changing here. I would give you the benefit of the doubt but since you advocated for lying my ability to trust you is damaged. Not to mention all the strawman but the first one did the job good..
And again, you talk about lying to someone as if it’s the worst sin in the world. Even if you are lying to them (and I suppose, from your perspective it would be a lie) are you actually doing any harm?
Yes yes it is. Do you have any ideas the damage lies can do. Especially on certain things and people you invest in? I've been there. I've seen it happen to others. Lies can mess you up. Can devastate people. You have me thinking either you've lived in a super lucky family with not issues or one that under the surface was very dysfunctional and shallow. I don't know. Maybe a bit of both. You want to lie about your partners ass looking to fat in jeans in one thing but something as like that is wrong. Before you strawman me again I wasn't literally saying you do that.
Think about that, and then think about what harm you might be exposing them to when you actively misgender them.
Think about what I said and then think about how much harm lies cause to everyone like when you expect them to misgender someone and live something you don't believe.
Also, even if you believe that trans people are mentally ill or delusional or whatever, you should know that clinicians and medical professionals suggest transitional hormone therapy and/or surgery as a potential option for people suffering from gender dysphoria (which is technically another thing because post transition trans people don’t generally experience gender dysphoria). Sources: 1, 2, 3, 4
Yeah and clinicians have schools full of children on ritalin when they shouldn't be. Not to mention how other put kids on hormone blockers before puberty and before really developing into themselves.
Again you're projecting a strawman. I never broached anything about being mentally ill or overall delusional. Nor have i ever said I was against hormone therapy for those old enough to decide for themselves. If they want to pump themselves with foreign chemicals they should feel free to do so. Though I would argue that last bit i arguable by many in the business. It's not a hard science and often you prove if that's what you're inclined to. Considering that's where the money and culture is heading.
“except when using pronouns”
And there it is. That’s the very issue you and I discussing. Using incorrect pronouns in reference to a trans person is, as I’ve explained and evidenced multiple times, not only disrespectful and fundamentally unsupportive, but more importantly, potentially psychologically harmful.
Yes there is is. You're advocating causing harm to both individuals with lies instead of just the trans person looking to become at peace within themselves with who they are and how they want to live. You're advocating constructing a social lie within the consciousness of society with your misgendering. You're painting this picture of a shallow, black and white relationship where capitulation is the only way to be supportive, respectful and having their back. I do have to wonder though again if it's really about them but you and your beliefs.
When I refer to “incels” I’m not just to all virgins, because I think that term has essentially transcended it’s literal meaning into something more ideological. I’m not talking about people who hate themselves and think they’re unlovable. I’m talking about people (mostly guys) who hate the other gender because they don’t provide them with sex.
See that's your misunderstanding. First off woman are just as much like that so save your mostly. They just hide under more acceptable other banners and groups. Did you ever ask yourself where the hate really comes from? It's misdirected self hate that is too much to handle. A self defense mechanism to alleviate the pressure. That anger about not being provided sex just a desperate thirst for love and affection. Physical or emotional.
People who feel entitled to a relationship, and adopt an ideology of hatred when they can’t find one. I’m referring to a specific self-identified social/political group for whom misogyny/misandry, LGBT+ hate and regressive attitudes towards sex are fundamental beliefs, people who are extreme reactionaries in regard to gender norms and the place of LGBT+ people in society. Guys like @iknowwhoyouare
I cant' speak for that user but I'm going to have to ignore the rest because I'm sure you know we have different ideas on what those those things are. Like how I have no doubt you wont agree with me that many of the things I hear coming from those groups in modern times are regressive socially. Anyway you can't read their mind and don't know where they're coming from
Also there is no need to call him out. Even if you wanted to reference him you didn't nee to @ him. THat's needlessly starting shit. Sometimes I think you go looking for it. Every once in awhile you pick someone as your next target and just keep at them until they leave the site for whatever reason or another one grabs your attention. Very harassing behavior. Not saying you are but that's what it's coming off as.
Now, you’re right, they may be struggling with their own insecurities and issues due to their inability to find sexual partners, but I don’t think that’s an excuse to have such toxic, prejudiced beliefs.
Which is besides the point. Why because you're just making it worse. You think that's going to change them? Your just going to make it stronger. You're just going to confirm in their heads what they believe to be true causing harm. It could be to themselves or to someone else. Your breeding more hate and harm.
I know plenty of people my age who are virgins and are totally chill and respectful.
lol again with you thinking people handle things the same. You ever think it's because they don't have that self hate or they just internalize it better. There are also those who hide it. How many killed themselves leaving their family wondering why their chill and respectful child did that. THere are also those who it's just an act. That they've learned and feel like it's the best way they can get by the day. The there are those who when blaming blame it's about the superficiality of society and not about females. People handle the pain differently.
You ever think when you go on about incels and how bad they are it doesn't shine a light on them too. Because no matter how you use it they have to live with the stigma you support because they cant escape the fact they're incels.
By your logic from before you have a social responsibility to just not do that because of the harm you're exposing them too.
Like incels, some of them are insecure about their sex lives, but unlike incels, they don’t use that as an excuse to be hateful and misogynistic/misandrist like the people over at r/MGTOW or r/FDS.
See you're doing it again. You're just being prejudice and lumping people in together. An incel is an incel regardless of how they act. You slap one you're hitting them all when you have one of your moments. And regardless of how they act they're all incels.
You want people to people to excuse you but you don't people go after the extremes of things like feminism and other activist movement and not the whole or at least concept. It's just more double standards on your beliefs. How people often act like the people they profess to hate just targeting different groups. Also you need to get off the misconception it's about sex.
Now addressing MGTOW. They're not incels. Maybe some pretend to be MGTOW but MGTOW is a choice. Incels don't get a choice. They also see the world differently. THe sources and what they believe to be unjust are different.
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For someone so obsessed about these groups you know very little about them.
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ugh this took way too much time. I'm probably going to stat winding it down. We're not heading anywhere.
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