from Theism to Atheism

  • 112 results
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
Avatar image for willpayton
willpayton

22502

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

I found this series of videos on YouTube dealing with a persons conversion from being a born-again Christian, to eventually becoming an atheist. It's actually a very impressive and well done series dealing with everything from his life as a Christian to the thought processes as he started to question his faith, to the history of the Bible and the god Yahweh.

The series as a whole is more than 2 hours, but once I started watching it I really coudnt stop. There's so much insight here for both religious and non-religious people, that I think everyone can benefit from watching this.

Entire playlist is here:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLA0C3C1D163BE880A

These are the first 2 videos in the series:

I know that many people here wont have the time or interest to watch all of the series. For those who do, please discuss what you thought. Are you a Christian, atheist, or other? What did you think of the process this person went through? What did you think of the evidence and arguments he presented that led him to de-convert?

Avatar image for saint_sophie
Saint_Sophie

7263

Forum Posts

1019

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 2

I will watch these when I have the time. Your summary is fairly interesting and well..

It sparked my interest because although I'm wasn't a Born Again Christian, I was a Catholic and kind of went down the road of becoming a "non believer"..

Avatar image for astral_trinity
Astral_Trinity

135

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

The Ultimate Goal of all RELIGION is subjugation.

Avatar image for willpayton
willpayton

22502

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

I will watch these when I have the time. Your summary is fairly interesting and well..

It sparked my interest because although I'm wasn't a Born Again Christian, I was a Catholic and kind of went down the road of becoming a "non believer"..

Then I think you will find this series very well worth your time. And, I'd love to hear your thoughts when you watch it.

Avatar image for eisenfauste
Eisenfauste

19666

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

The Ultimate Goal of all RELIGION is subjugation.

Yep you're right

Avatar image for cable_extreme
Cable_Extreme

17190

Forum Posts

324

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

I'll watch later, but this hits right at home with my life experience.

Avatar image for mandarinestro
Mandarinestro

7651

Forum Posts

4902

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

#7  Edited By Mandarinestro

Can you summarise what he said because I don’t have two hours?

EDIT: Nevermind I'll watch this when I get home. But anyway I'm not a born again Christian but a Catholic. I did go to a born again Christian school where I had a disagreement with a Fundamentalist teacher.

Avatar image for willpayton
willpayton

22502

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Can you summarise what he said because I don’t have two hours?

EDIT: Nevermind I'll watch this when I get home. But anyway I'm not a born again Christian but a Catholic. I did go to a born again Christian school where I had a disagreement with a Fundamentalist teacher.

Arghhh... I replied with 2 paragraphs of summary and CV ate the post when I hit "post reply" =(

I hope you find these interesting.

Avatar image for mr_clockwork91
Mr_Clockwork91

2625

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@willpayton: Will, that was informative to say the least. You already know that I'm an atheist but its still genuine to listen to how others deconvert from real experiences, study, skepticism. I did not know about the graceful degradation concept until now and that explains a lot of how those of us who do debate theists, need to understand that raising objections to one topic, does not hinder their beliefs dead in it's track.

The video that dealt with the bible was also good, it raised some points that I have never heard before. Like the writers of the book and their languages they used as well as their political agendas within them.

Avatar image for willpayton
willpayton

22502

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@willpayton: Will, that was informative to say the least. You already know that I'm an atheist but its still genuine to listen to how others deconvert from real experiences, study, skepticism. I did not know about the graceful degradation concept until now and that explains a lot of how those of us who do debate theists, need to understand that raising objections to one topic, does not hinder their beliefs dead in it's track.

The video that dealt with the bible was also good, it raised some points that I have never heard before. Like the writers of the book and their languages they used as well as their political agendas within them.

Yeah I'd never thought of religious belief in that way (mega-belief, and the idea of graceful degradation), but once he said it it instantly made perfect sense to me. It was like a revelation... no pun intended. =)

I'm glad to hear that you're enjoying these. I really cant even imagine how much work this person put into these, but it's an impressive series with so much information and logic that it immediately made me want to share it with everyone.

Avatar image for lordraiden
lordraiden

9699

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Is it only in segments, or can it be watched/listened to as a whole?

Avatar image for willpayton
willpayton

22502

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Is it only in segments, or can it be watched/listened to as a whole?

I think if you click on a video in the playlist, it will automatically continue to the next one. They are all part of a whole, so each chapter continues where the previous one left off.

If you want to watch them as a single video... I did find this one that collects the first 14 (I think) chapters into one video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dwno5iettvU

But, that one omits the last 7 chapters... so you'll still have to watch those separately.

I think the best way is to simply watch from the playlist, so each just continues into the next automatically.

Avatar image for lordraiden
lordraiden

9699

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Awesome. Thank you very much.

Avatar image for lvenger
Lvenger

36475

Forum Posts

899

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 50

User Lists: 18

I'll try and find the time to watch these videos, they seem particularly intriguing based on your summary. I've never been religious even before I was an atheist so finding out about a conversion from a theist to atheist is bound to be an insight.

Avatar image for magnablue
magnablue

10500

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

I used to believe god. That was in elementary shcool. but now I don't

Avatar image for willpayton
willpayton

22502

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@lvenger said:

I'll try and find the time to watch these videos, they seem particularly intriguing based on your summary. I've never been religious even before I was an atheist so finding out about a conversion from a theist to atheist is bound to be an insight.

Yeah, I was never religious even as a child. I did have to go to church on Sundays with my parents, but that stuff never made sense to me and I mostly just waited bored for it to be over. So, it's interesting for me to see how someone can go from being a full true-believer like this to being a full atheist. I mean, this is obviously a very smart guy, so it's fascinating how a smart person in today's age can believe in things that are basically just fairytales from thousands of years ago. It really made me sympathize more with these folks.

Avatar image for kuonphobos
kuonphobos

5344

Forum Posts

135572

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 9

#17  Edited By kuonphobos

@willpayton: Thanks for inviting me to watch and comment on this series.

I just completed the first two videos and wanted to share some thoughts:

First I just wanted to say that (even though it may not come across online) I always intend to come to these things with repect and an open mind...even if some might presuppose that this is not possible for me. With my background, perhaps it isn't but it is the attitude I bring.

I feel it is important to point out that this fellow grew up in a Charismatic/Pentecostal denomination. I myself was drawn to the Assemblies of God early in college after essentially growing up as a Southern Baptist. I have much to say about the difference between these two denominations and their respective theologies and styles but my own story parallels much of what he has related in the first video. Suffice it to say that I believe it would be important to understand the distinctions between the two different denominations as well as how each of them relate back to historic Christianity in order to get a handle on what potentially could have precipitated this persons "deconversion". I'm not trying to make light of his experience at all, just saying that he may not represent a good example of a "normal baseline" for the Christian experience of Protestants and especially Catholics.

I really appreciate his statement about giving God respect and building bridges. It is what I have been arguing for on this site for a long time. Mutual respect. Grown ups can state their disagreements without "appeals to the man" or flame baiting. Also, I really appreciate his perspective on "mega-belief" and "graceful degradation" in the second video. These are actually what I have been speaking about on these threads now and then over the past few years. Particularly the concept of the more elemental structures which make up the "mega-belief" such as personal experience, biblical scholarship, other believers, etc. I think I even stated to you specifically WillPayton that one would need to disprove the historicity of the person and work of Jesus Christ to bring the whole system down...if that were one's intent and desire.

Me personally, I just follow my nose. I desire the truth. If that turns out to be atheism then so be it. But I need cold hard logic and repeatable evidence not assumptions built upon presuppositions which themselves are built upon assumptions. That isn't too much to ask is it? Isn't that what we all should be looking for?

I'll post more when I get a chance to watch more in the series.

Thanks again.

Avatar image for consolemaster001
consolemaster001

6896

Forum Posts

556

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 6

Ehhhh.....nah.

Avatar image for willpayton
willpayton

22502

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@willpayton: Thanks for inviting me to watch and comment on this series.

I just completed the first two videos and wanted to share some thoughts:

First I just wanted to say that (even though it may not come across online) I always intend to come to these things with repect and an open mind...even if some might presuppose that this is not possible for me. With my background, perhaps it isn't but it is the attitude I bring.

I feel it is important to point out that this fellow grew up in a Charismatic/Pentecostal denomination. I myself was drawn to the Assemblies of God early in college after essentially growing up as a Southern Baptist. I have much to say about the difference between these two denominations and their respective theologies and styles but my own story parallels much of what he has related in the first video. Suffice it to say that I believe it would be important to understand the distinctions between the two different denominations as well as how each of them relate back to historic Christianity in order to get a handle on what potentially could have precipitated this persons "deconversion". I'm not trying to make light of his experience at all, just saying that he may not represent a good example of a "normal baseline" for the Christian experience of Protestants and especially Catholics.

I really appreciate his statement about giving God respect and building bridges. It is what I have been arguing for on this site for a long time. Mutual respect. Grown ups can state their disagreements without "appeals to the man" or flame baiting. Also, I really appreciate his perspective on "mega-belief" and "graceful degradation" in the second video. These are actually what I have been speaking about on these threads now and then over the past few years. Particularly the concept of the more elemental structures which make up the "mega-belief" such as personal experience, biblical scholarship, other believers, etc. I think I even stated to you specifically WillPayton that one would need to disprove the historicity of the person and work of Jesus Christ to bring the whole system down...if that were one's intent and desire.

Me personally, I just follow my nose. I desire the truth. If that turns out to be atheism then so be it. But I need cold hard logic and repeatable evidence not assumptions built upon presuppositions which themselves are built upon assumptions. That isn't too much to ask is it? Isn't that what we all should be looking for?

I'll post more when I get a chance to watch more in the series.

Thanks again.

I'll be interested to see what you think when you've had the chance to watch more, especially since you come from a similar background (although a different denomination). One of the strengths of this particular series is that all along the way he gives us his reasoning and the evidence and arguments he found that started to change his mind... so I think you'll appreciate that aspect of it.

Avatar image for dshipp17
dshipp17

7670

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#20  Edited By dshipp17

@willpayton:

My first observation is that he's young, easily influenced; I see peer pressure here; he likely saw all of the popular people around him and wanted to be like them. After looking through some of the clips, I saw that he wasn’t using the confrontational approach that I was expecting. With age and maturity, his opinion is subject to change back to the way of Christianity.

Ok, here we go:

The Pentecostal Church is probably the most rule oriented church in Christianity after the Catholics. Jesus debated this concept with the Sadducees and Pharisees; I'm not trying to step on the Pentecostal denomination, just make it clear that Christianity wasn't necessarily meant to be about the rules which is like a backdoor to continuing to live under the Law; Christianity is supposed to be about the strength of your convictions in Jesus Christ. Than, you have to understand that it is understood that we all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

His initial reasons for being a Christian are understandable, similar to mines in some ways but dissimilar in other ways. I’ve always felt that I was apart of my Church environment; I felt a sense that I was being activated from a dormant state the first time someone began to read Bible verses to me. From this, I always had a firm sense of knowing what things were about in terms of Christianity and the Bible. You don’t get saved multiple times, you only get saved once. Saying he got saved multiple times is a clear indication that his convictions were never sincere. I’m also getting a sense that there was a rift created between those Christians closest to him and himself. Now, I did renew my vows sort to speak, about 2 times in my life, but it was more related to a sermon I was hearing; I was more trying to make sure that I was saved, but I was always serious about being saved and concerned about being saved; I was making sure that I was saved according to proper protocol, but the key is the desire to be saved; if that desire was always missing, than he never truly had the right frame of mind. He explains what he found enjoyable about Royal Rangers; I understand that it was everything except the organization’s goal of shaping a child’s beliefs in Christ; I’m sensing the mind set of an outsider. Again, an indication that he was never truly serious about being saved. Unlike his comment, there are no verses where Jesus is not so peaceful. But, I like his first video, My Christian Life; he got some of the feelings that you should be having somewhat accurately.

The second video is really informative. I prayed for things, but I also use prayer time to thank God for a host of recent blessings and answered prayers. What I take from this is that his experience with praying is different from my experience with praying. The disciples asked Jesus for a way to pray and Jesus provided an answer. So, prayer has a purpose and can make a difference in an outcome. My experience has been that prayer is not proportional to not praying. When I prayed, more positive things happened in my life than if I did not pray; I realized this, once I started praying for myself. When I was a child, I would pray to join in, but I had others praying for me, also; while in this environment, I had one of the most positive moments of my life, even though I did not appreciate it very much. When I got a bit of freedom, I stopped praying and I’m sure people slowly stopped praying for me soon after wards; in my instance, I believe it was more of a matter that intercessors had stopped praying for me, as I truly did not appreciate and understand the power of prayer, because I really didn’t give it a lot of thought much past a church gathering; for me, I got out of church so that I could be free to do something like watch a cartoon on television or play with the dog. But, God was always with me. When I stopped praying, which was soon after I left the environment concentrated with intercession prayer and the intercession prayer stopped, I went through one of the most tumultuous periods of my life. Sometimes I thought about church, but I had stopped attending church; it was not for a specific reason, I just decided that I would stop going to church, because I went to church multiple times a week, every week, when I was a child; in my case, it was more that I didn’t give much thought to the purpose of attending church; it might have been explained, but I was usually there only in body. I than started attending church again, during my senior year in high school, because I showed up for a girl that I had a crush on; but, something started to stick; because of this, I decided to start attending church again; although I didn’t start praying again, blessings started to flow into my life again; following this decision, I went through one of the most positive periods of my life. But this was also a period when I began to reflect on what I’d been taught in church; I began to consider whether the Bible was just a collection of stories; I began to ask myself the reason that so many people were interested in the Bible. I was around a whole lot of Christians and I could see the joy and excitement in them about being a Christian; a lot of the older students were giving me lots of sage advise; but than, I got this over stuffed feeling about attending church again; the purpose of church had again eluded me. During this period, I had not started praying independently again, I just simply started attending church again and praying along with the church, which was apparently enough for God, considering my development at that time. Even still, during this period, I started to sin in that it was the first time I gained freedom to freely view pornographic material. I than went through a period when my life was the most tumultuous. During this period, I learned to understand the true purpose of attending church, reading the Bible, and praying. I started attending church and I used the time for prayer to really start praying. I than renewed my vows with God by going through the process of accepting Jesus as my Lord and Savior and being baptized again; this time, the Holy Spirit treated it as more serious; before, I understood my motives but understood that I was not quite at the level of required seriousness. After this, I went through the most blessed periods of my life. I attended church and I prayed in church, but I hadn’t quite started to pray independently yet. But, soon after this blessed period, I backslide into my prior sin. I than lost the source of my blessing. I was still attending church, but I didn’t start praying. After a few months of pressure, I began to pray. However, during this period, it appeared that my prayers were not being answered. I would ask for something that I desperately wanted back, the previous source of my blessings, but I kept receiving negative outcomes in response to my prayers; things seemed to go further downhill; but, I kept the faith, viewing my trials as similar to what Job was experiencing. I than spent years praying where my prayers were not being answered or I got a negative response to my prayer; however, I noticed positive developments taking place; they were independent of what I was praying for, but they were things that I needed. I than began to gain a new appreciation and understanding of the purpose of prayer. Soon, my prayers were being answered in my field of awareness. I began to understand that God does indeed answer prayers, it was just a matter of my faulty understanding of what it meant to receive an answered prayer; I discovered that, where it appeared that I was receiving a negative response to my prayers, they were for my benefit in a future time; those negative responses were working out for my betterment in the future; while my prayers were not answered in the past, it was important for my employment case at a future point. Now, several years later, I can see that my prayers lead God into keeping in a state where I could survive for a state of long term care (e.g. living arrangements, as opposed to medical related) where, alternatively, I could have ended up in a state where I would have been unable to pursue my legal case and I would have been long forgotten, if I’d ever had emerged in a state to pursue my legal endeavors. Although God didn’t appear to be answering my prayers, He was, it was just in a manner where I could not foresee while I was making my prayer request. Viewed another way, God appears to have been evaluating and molding my character. From God’s perspective, who do you believe passed His evaluation so far: the person who made this YouTube video or someone who sees things as I do, in response to prayer? From God’s perspective, between us, where did the seed fall on good soil and where did the seed fall among thorns? Of course, evaluation is for the time being; perhaps the character of the person who made this YouTube video will change in the future.

Although prayer had no positive effect on those heart patients, there have been incidents where prayer has had positive effects on heart patients. I honestly can’t see how those incidents represented anything positive, but it depends on the people who made the intercessory prayers; it ultimately depends on the person being prayed for and that person’s relationship with God. Plus, he does not even reference the study involving prayer and heart patients. Obviously, his jug of milk example is silly, because it’s simply a hyperthetical; the results were never actually observed; while, with God, the results were actually observed by millions of witnesses throughout history who gave witness accounts that they genuinely believed were true.

In response to his morality point, it’s best to assume that God does not give Commands arbitrarily. Although we might not always immediately understand God’s reason for giving a Command, there is a beneficial reason for a Commandment from God. Some of His Commands might have to do with morality, while others may not (e.g. humanity finally understood God’s Commandments in regards to people with leprosy thousands of years later, when humanity started to understand the concept of quarantine; the mystery here is why God did not want to interfere with the development of humanity; why did He instead want humanity to develop).

Regarding his first video to other Christians, the Bible makes clear that God meant that His creation took 6 literal days; the 7th day was intended for rest (e.g. remembering the seventh day, keeping it holy, and resting). The first demonstration of such are the Ten Commandments itself. What the presenter is forgetting is that most of these people (e.g. the atheists who were presenting the informaion) are only interested in leading you to sources that support their position; these people rarely look into sources supporting the Christian perspective; these people usually say they don’t want to see the material because the material supporting the Christian position is just rehashed information. But such a position is not true; the information supporting their source has usually already been explained away in the sources supporting the Christian position. Christians take the time to look through supposedly new information and than discuss that information to their Christian audience. While the person has lots of academic credentials, the same point still applies: is this person going outside his field(s) of expertise? I recently saw a debate between William Lane Craig and Lawrence Krauss; it appeared that Krauss was making a lot of good points about the history of the Bible, but it turned out that his positions came from somewhere where a person was just passing out historical information that the person had heard from a source over the internet; the information Krass was presenting had been corrected long ago by Christian theologians; while a person with a lot of scientific credentials is impressive, that person is not going to be more qualified to explain the history of the Bible than a Christian theologian.

In regards to his third video, Christians do not fear science. You could find more people fearful of science in say sports, economics, law, or anything; this fear is from the reputation of science being a difficult to understand subject academically; if people understand this, people would just see scientists as any educated person who’s wandering out of their field of expertise; again, a Christian theologian has spent all of his upper level academic career understanding the Bible much better than anyone else; Pastors than pass down what they learn from Christian theologians back to their congregations in most cases; if the books presented in this video raised faith shattering points, the Christian theologians would have grasped those revelations and altered the way Christians should view the Bible; this has not taken place yet, despite decades of the random attack on the authenticity of the Bible. The mistake of this presenter is basically what he’s accusing Christians of, being fearful of the truth; the smart thing to do is take what information he encountered than present them to a Christian theologian or theologians for answers, see whether the information he receives back is convincing, than make a major conclusion about his position in Christianity; not dong such just demonstrates a bias away from Christianity; as such, so far, I haven't heard anything from him that I find revolutionary; I just think he can learn a lot more, at this point. To assume that most of the Christians have not taken a journey to question their faith is just presumptive, arrogant, and misinformed.

The reason why Abraham lied to the Egyptians about Sarah being his sister was because he’s a flawed human being and the Bible was presenting the message that God accepts us with our flaws; the right answer would have been to seek God for guidance, similar to what Adam should have done, but Abraham had to exercise his free will. However, Abraham might have had a legitimate fear of being killed, had he told the truth; God would have protected him; the Pharaoh might have acted in a way different than Abraham had assumed. In relation to the Pharaoh in Exodus, in relation to Moses, we already saw that this person was not a good person by any means, because he had ordered the murder of all male first born of the Jewish people, because his adviser had pointed out that the Jewish peoples’ numbers were growing and he felt that they might become a threat to his government; at this time, the Jews were slaves to the Egyptians; the Jews were found among the Egyptian population because a previous Pharaoh had held Joseph in high regard, but, over time, the Egyptians decided to enslave the Jews. The Pharaoh was not going to willingly allow the Jews to just leave anyway, so God hardening his heart made little difference; God hardening the Pharaoh’s heart might have prevented other forms of reprisal against the Jewish people in response to God’s efforts to liberate the Jewish people. To answer his question, there is a scientific explanation to some of the tediousness of God’s Commandments in the next four Books of Moses (e.g. the concept of quarantine was introduced in these Books thousands of years before being scientifically implemented).

Students Surprised to Find Noah's Ark Feasible

Avatar image for frozen
frozen

40401

Forum Posts

258

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 14

Avatar image for mickey-mouse
mickey-mouse

37138

Forum Posts

1

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 4

@frozen: You lost points for even reading that long *** essay.

Avatar image for dshipp17
dshipp17

7670

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#23  Edited By dshipp17

I have to go through the videos starting with Personal Relationship, but here is a ver interesting video in response to his video:

Loading Video...

Loading Video...

Loading Video...

Avatar image for willpayton
willpayton

22502

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@dshipp17: Thank you for your lengthy reply. Although I disagree with parts of what you said, I appreciate that you took the time to watch the videos and reply thoughtfully. I hope you'll watch the rest, since they're very informative and thought-provoking... IMO.

I wish I had more time to reply in length to your post. Specifically I wanted to reply to the idea that prayers are answered. But... my work at the moment is taking up most of my time. Maybe another time.

Avatar image for granitesoldier
GraniteSoldier

12746

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 42

User Lists: 0

Interesting. I was raised Catholic, but neither of my parents were religious (my dad is an athiest and my mom was just looking to reinforce morality) and by the time I was about to be a teenager they'd stopped going to and taking my brother and I to church all together. I eventually became agnostic, simply because I don't find enough to prove/disprove or support either existence of a higher power or lack thereof. I arrived there when seeing how many of history's great minds, such as Albert Einstein, never subscribed to athiesm or theism in full. But that's just me, I'll find out when I'm dead what's really there. Or maybe we won't? Who knows.

Avatar image for willpayton
willpayton

22502

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@dshipp17 said:

I have to go through the videos starting with Personal Relationship, but here is a ver interesting video in response to his video:

Loading Video...

I watched this first video. Maybe when I get some more time I'll watch the rest.

Unfortunately he only gives vague reasons to why he converted, and those reasons are not very good. For example, he says that he found out how complex the body was... and then somehow that led him to Christianity. Well, that just doesnt follow. The human body (or the body or any animal) is complex because it evolved over millions, or billions, of years. The explanation is well known to science. He claims to study biomedical science, but I can only conclude he's not studying it very hard... because evolution is one of the core basis of biology, and he clearly isnt getting it.

He goes on to say that he talked with his friend and every argument he had was countered with a better more logical one for religion. Agian, this doesnt in any way suggest that those arguments were in fact better, only that his ability to reason and argue are lacking. Why doesnt he give specific examples of the arguments he made, and the counter-arguments that his friend made? Then we can determine for ourselves. But, he fails to provide any specific examples whatsoever.

He gives a version of the "god works in mysterious ways" argument... even though he tries to deny it.

Finally he tries to make an argument saying that we dont know how feelings work or that science cant tell why we feel things. This is just wrong, and again he's just showing his ignorance of the fields of evolution and neuroscience. It seems like someone who studies "biomedical science" would be familiar with the basics of this stuff.

The final problem here, or I should say the overall problem, is that he seems to have decided that because he doesnt understand how things work (feelings, the human body, etc) then therefore the Christian God must exist. Hmm... really? Why not Zeus? Allah? Odin? Vishnu? Oh wait, it's because he talked to his Christian friend. Presumably if he'd been talking to his Hindu friend he'd now be a Hindu. This whole "I dont know how this could work, therefore God did it" appears to be a very common argument by theists, in spite of the obvious problem here. It's a clear argument from ignorance.

Avatar image for dshipp17
dshipp17

7670

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

@dshipp17 said:

I have to go through the videos starting with Personal Relationship, but here is a ver interesting video in response to his video:

Loading Video...

I watched this first video. Maybe when I get some more time I'll watch the rest.

Unfortunately he only gives vague reasons to why he converted, and those reasons are not very good. For example, he says that he found out how complex the body was... and then somehow that led him to Christianity. Well, that just doesnt follow. The human body (or the body or any animal) is complex because it evolved over millions, or billions, of years. The explanation is well known to science. He claims to study biomedical science, but I can only conclude he's not studying it very hard... because evolution is one of the core basis of biology, and he clearly isnt getting it.

He goes on to say that he talked with his friend and every argument he had was countered with a better more logical one for religion. Agian, this doesnt in any way suggest that those arguments were in fact better, only that his ability to reason and argue are lacking. Why doesnt he give specific examples of the arguments he made, and the counter-arguments that his friend made? Then we can determine for ourselves. But, he fails to provide any specific examples whatsoever.

He gives a version of the "god works in mysterious ways" argument... even though he tries to deny it.

Finally he tries to make an argument saying that we dont know how feelings work or that science cant tell why we feel things. This is just wrong, and again he's just showing his ignorance of the fields of evolution and neuroscience. It seems like someone who studies "biomedical science" would be familiar with the basics of this stuff.

The final problem here, or I should say the overall problem, is that he seems to have decided that because he doesnt understand how things work (feelings, the human body, etc) then therefore the Christian God must exist. Hmm... really? Why not Zeus? Allah? Odin? Vishnu? Oh wait, it's because he talked to his Christian friend. Presumably if he'd been talking to his Hindu friend he'd now be a Hindu. This whole "I dont know how this could work, therefore God did it" appears to be a very common argument by theists, in spite of the obvious problem here. It's a clear argument from ignorance.

This is just a friendly observation that I gather from your posts in this area: you seem to have tunnel vision; you seem to have a phobia towards Christianity.

No can can or needs to be an expert in all scientific fields before they become a Christian or remain a Christian. There are websites devoted Creationism that helps the Christians made by some atheists to become informed in matters of science.

Evolution does no give a clear explanation for why the body of multicellular organisms are complex. evolution explaining the formation of a complicated organism such as an animal or human is speculation. i say this, because there is no evidence that say animals and humans evolved from a common ancestor, even though supporters of evolution keep putting forth this idea. this observation about the lack of evidence is an observation made following recent experimentation in evolution; this idea was popular before experiments in evolution could be conducted, but now, after much experimentation, new observation should catch up and make this popular idea go away. Recent experimentation in the area of evolution appear to show the idea of separate kinds of organisms (e.g. humankind, chimpanzee kind, dog kind, cat kind, etc; there's no need to give the scientific names for these groups of organisms to make my point). When you major in biology, evolution is not apart of the core requirements for a major in the life sciences; the earlier course start to explain things like transcription, physiology, photosynthesis, and protein/DNA interaction; none of these areas of biology require an understanding of evolution. It would appear that evolution would be an elective course.

Evolutionary Biologists Rethink Evolution

No one can produce arguments that will convince everyone or at least that everyone will acknowledge are good, convincing answers. This person appear to be one of the most stubborn types of atheists but he meant someone who was able to explain the logic of Christianity in a manner in which he could accept.

In relation to feelings, you may have missed his point; he says neuroscience can explain how feelings work but now why we feel something; evolution has nothing to do with anything. of course, you can explain why you feel the topic of evolution has anything to do with why humans feel things.

The reason why he can chose the Christian God is because the source material is thousands of years old, yet the information can support a logical debate position for a Christian scientist. The source material supporting Zeus cannot support a debate position in the same way, because it is mythological in such a way that nearly everybody can agree; The same is the case with the source material supporting Odin and Vishnu; this and other atheists change of position proofs such about the Christian God; it can necessarily convince every human being alive, but it's still enough to convince billions every day; for example, every human being may not be convinced that terrorists hijacked two planes to crash into the World Trade Center in the United States, but billions can accept this explanation. As far as Allah, Jews, Christians, and Muslims can agree that God created the heavens and the Earth. I'll say some elements supporting the Hindu faith previously supported the Greek Olympian religion, but I'll stop short to not disparage the Hindu religion, since the Hindu religion has a large following concentrated in India; but, in the religion thread, I explained how the Bible can account for such a religion by the Tower of Babel; I also do this, because I may have a personal link to an entity who may have been apart of the Hindu religion.

What Happened at the Tower of Babel?

Avatar image for willpayton
willpayton

22502

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#28  Edited By willpayton

@dshipp17 said:

... there is no evidence that say animals and humans evolved from a common ancestor...

There is overwhelming evidence for this. It's accepted as fact by the scientific community. So, yes, in order to try to claim that this is not true someone does need to be an expert in the field. Without the appropriate knowledge you cant even begin to understand the evidence. Your statement here is a perfect example of the problem. There is plenty of evidence and convincing arguments to support common descent, but you refuse to acknowledge it. (and, it has been provided in these forums before, btw)

@dshipp17 said:

In relation to feelings, you may have missed his point; he says neuroscience can explain how feelings work but now why we feel something; evolution has nothing to do with anything. of course, you can explain why you feel the topic of evolution has anything to do with why humans feel things.

I did not miss the point. He says that we cant know why we feel something, and I say we do. Evolution has everything to do with it. Evolution is the force that produced certain traits in the animal brain that led to things like the need to live in groups, the need to get along with others (i.e. morality), and the need to empathize with others' thoughts and needs. These things all have evolutionary advantages, and things like feelings and morality are a natural consequence of a complicated thinking machine (the brain). Of course we dont fully understand the mechanisms of how the brain works yet, but certain things are now known. Through the studies of psychology and neuroscience we have started to learn these things, and there's no need to appeal to ignorance or the supernatural. This guy is claiming to study biology, but his lack of basic knowledge says he's not very good at it. He's basing his beliefs on his lack of knowledge which has led him to accept bad arguments and logical fallacies as if they were convincing evidence.

I really dont understand why you are so resistant to learning about actual science. You keep saying that you read sites with science, but you refuse to accept when people tell you that what you're reading is faulty. Why is this? Do you really not believe that you could be wrong, and that people who are experts in their fields are right? I suggest you consider that pride is the worst of the deadly sins. I dont mean this as an insult or anything, I'm sincerely trying to help you. But, if you dont want to listen, then that's your right.

Avatar image for dshipp17
dshipp17

7670

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#29  Edited By dshipp17

@willpayton said:

@dshipp17 said:

... there is no evidence that say animals and humans evolved from a common ancestor...

There is overwhelming evidence for this. It's accepted as fact by the scientific community. So, yes, in order to try to claim that this is not true someone does need to be an expert in the field. Without the appropriate knowledge you cant even begin to understand the evidence. Your statement here is a perfect example of the problem. There is plenty of evidence and convincing arguments to support common descent, but you refuse to acknowledge it. (and, it has been provided in these forums before, btw)

@dshipp17 said:

In relation to feelings, you may have missed his point; he says neuroscience can explain how feelings work but now why we feel something; evolution has nothing to do with anything. of course, you can explain why you feel the topic of evolution has anything to do with why humans feel things.

I did not miss the point. He says that we cant know why we feel something, and I say we do. Evolution has everything to do with it. Evolution is the force that produced certain traits in the animal brain that led to things like the need to live in groups, the need to get along with others (i.e. morality), and the need to empathize with others' thoughts and needs. These things all have evolutionary advantages, and things like feelings and morality are a natural consequence of a complicated thinking machine (the brain). Of course we dont fully understand the mechanisms of how the brain works yet, but certain things are now known. Through the studies of psychology and neuroscience we have started to learn these things, and there's no need to appeal to ignorance or the supernatural. This guy is claiming to study biology, but his lack of basic knowledge says he's not very good at it. He's basing his beliefs on his lack of knowledge which has led him to accept bad arguments and logical fallacies as if they were convincing evidence.

I really dont understand why you are so resistant to learning about actual science. You keep saying that you read sites with science, but you refuse to accept when people tell you that what you're reading is faulty. Why is this? Do you really not believe that you could be wrong, and that people who are experts in their fields are right? I suggest you consider that pride is the worst of the deadly sins. I dont mean this as an insult or anything, I'm sincerely trying to help you. But, if you dont want to listen, then that's your right.

Please present some of the evidence showing that animals and humans evolved from a common ancestor; I do not remember seeing the evidence presented in these forums. I don't know of any evidence for evolution that the scientific community sees as fact; I know the scientific community sees evolution as fact but I don't know if that is because of any evidence supporting the idea of evolution. That's what I was saying: there was a view of evolution that has been out for awhile that recent experimentation has not verified; the scientific community is trying to verify evolution through experimentation, but as the efforts are started the idea is failing to show that the postulate is actually true.

You believe more about evolution than the postulate actually teaches. You have a lot of faith in evolution. But you keep recycling claims without presenting information supporting your position; you point out reasons that you disagree with the other position but your disagreement does not do away with the evidence supporting the other position; they are just minor technicalities associated with the other position; while, on the flip side, you just basically say that we should just wait for the proof to surface; but, so far, I'm providing information showing that the experiments are not showing that certain claims will surface.

I'm not resistant to learning science; I have two degrees in two different science fields and I studied other science fields; what I'm presenting is actual science. You're passing on a false dichotomy by implying that viewing new evidence in a way that contradicts the currently accepted view of things does not represent actual science. I've shown scientists pointing out new experimental findings and reaching a valid conclusion that the evidence is showing something other than evolution. I'm not opposing anyone who's an expert in their field and claiming to be right about something; I'm gathering evidence from other experts in said field and presenting their conclusions that say the experiments are showing that the theories by the experts for the mainstream are proving to be wrong. I'm looking over the information that I present to make sure the information is probably correct before I present it. Since I studied the life sciences but did not get a degree in the life sciences, or even a minor, I do have to lean on the experts in that field to present correct data, since the information will be peer reviewed formally or by public opinion from being exposed to their peers. I’m not so much proclaiming to be right about the data so much as I’m presenting examples of people who are presenting experiments that are looking at the science in new and different ways. You seem willing to look at the data in different ways so long as it does not involve supporting Christianity; this tells me that you would rather be in denial about what new data is actually showing rather than not finding the evidence that supports Creation science; I say this, because you claim there’s scarce to no evidence supporting creation science. The term creation science should give most rational people the image that a community of scientists are at least attempting to back scientific information that might be supporting creation. You speak of it as if creation science is only being supported by amateur historians, church goers, church pastors, and maybe theologians; if you believe this than you’re misinformed about the field. You’re showing pride by not even giving the information they present your open mind; in other words, you’re refusing to be teachable; that, or you need to concede that, given that your field of expertise is in computer science and astronomy, you cannot definitively say whether their conclusions in life science, geology, or other field outside of computer science or astronomy is correct or not; however, you want to give the impression that you know with certainty that the information is not only wrong, but irrational, not realizing that scientific journals are being quoted/cited in the information presented on their websites.

Avatar image for kal_smahboi
Kal'smahboi

3976

Forum Posts

12376

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 1

I'm an atheist that was raised Roman Catholic. It was an interesting and, honestly, soul-wretching transition. I'm excited to watch this series.

Avatar image for willpayton
willpayton

22502

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@dshipp17 said:

Please present some of the evidence showing that animals and humans evolved from a common ancestor; I do not remember seeing the evidence presented in these forums. I don't know of any evidence for evolution that the scientific community sees as fact; I know the scientific community sees evolution as fact but I don't know if that is because of any evidence supporting the idea of evolution. That's what I was saying: there was a view of evolution that has been out for awhile that recent experimentation has not verified; the scientific community is trying to verify evolution through experimentation, but as the efforts are started the idea is failing to show that the postulate is actually true.

The fact that you have to ask for evidence shows clearly that you havent even tried to look for it. If you Google "evidence for common ancestry", the first page is the wikipedia page with plenty of evidence:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_common_descent

From the RationalWiki page, lines of evidence for common descent:

  • Anatomical homologies - Throughout the domains of life, organisms show a distinct pattern of constraints based on homology in development and construction of the body. For example, tetrapods have five digits because the ancestor of tetrapods had five digits. When a tetrapod does not seem to have five obvious digits, a review of their development shows that they start development with five and that they fuse together later to form fewer numbers.
  • DNA and RNA code - Almost all organisms use the same three-letter code for translating RNA into proteins. There are variations, such as the code used by mitochondria and some bacteria and fungi, but the differences are only minor. Regardless of the slight differences, all organisms use the same coding mechanism for translating the code into amino acid sequences.
  • Endogenous retroviral insertions - Ancient retroviruses inserted inactivated viral genes into genomes. For a retrovirus to be inherited in all members of a species, a series of highly improbable events must occur. The virus must insert into a gamete cell and it must mutate so it is inactive. That gamete cell must be used to make an embryo that lives to reproduce and whose genome fixates into the population at random location in the genome. This rare event is usually species specific.
  • Pseudogenes - Shared errors are a powerful argument for a common source. If two books describe the same concept in similar language, it's possible they just both converged on the same wording. However, if they both share the same grammar or spelling errors it becomes improbable to assume that they did not derive from a common source. There are genes that no longer code for a protein due to a mutation or error. Species often share the same pseudogene with the same inactivating mutation. A famous example of this is the L-gulonolactone oxidase that synthesizes vitamin C. All simians including humans share one pseudogene of inactivated L-gulonolactone oxidase, but the guinea pig has a different pseudogene indicating a different mutation.
  • Embryology - The pharyngula stage of embryonic development appears to be highly conserved. At this stage, it is difficult to tell the difference between various vertebrate species. This conserved state screams common ancestry, and the field of evolutionary development has expanded our knowledge of developmental genes and their consequent embryo ontogeny to amazing levels of detail, all thanks to acknowledging common descent.
  • Chromosome fusion - Gene fusion or chromosome fusion is when two chromosomes are spliced together. As an example, chimpanzees have one more chromosome than humans do. If the two species share a common ancestor, scientists should be able to figure out what happened to that chromosome. Researchers have found that chromosome 2 in humans is actually the fusion of two separate chimpanzee chromosomes. At the end of each chromosome is a marker called a telomere, which usually appears only on the ends. In human chromosome 2 it also appears in the center, marking where the two ends fused.
  • Convergence - The phylogenetic trees constructed using anatomical homology, DNA homology, pseudogenes, endogenous retroviral insertions, and many other methods all converge on a similar looking tree. There are slight differences but the general relationships of the trees are intact. If any of these methods were flawed, they would not converge on the same tree.
  • Uniqueness - The complex, predictive patterns of similarities and differences in the world of life have have a unique known explanation - no one has even hypothesized an alternative account for the patterns exhibited - either there is common descent or there is something which is somehow simulating common descent.

It then goes on to elaborate on each one.

The Wikipedia page on human evolution has an entire section on fossil evidence:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution#Evidence

This paper talks about the fossil and DNA evidence:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/bies.950181204/abstract;jsessionid=9E14C27A86390F203062AF11D11DB1CE.f01t04

This article talks about a fossil of Ardipithecus ramidus that was found. This is the oldest known common ancestor between humans and apes:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/10/091001-oldest-human-skeleton-ardi-missing-link-chimps-ardipithecus-ramidus.html

If you want to get more into it, then read some books. This one goes into detail on how humans evolved:

http://books.google.com/books?id=ITp_RnsPfzQC&pg=PA17#v=onepage&q&f=false

I could keep going. There's way too much evidence to properly discuss here. A little research goes a long way. But, the key is that you have to go to reputable sources. If you insist on getting your information from Creationist and pseudo-scientific websites, then there's no hope. They're very good at pretending to know what they're talking about, and unless you're an expert in the field you wont be able to tell the difference between good science and crap. And, of course, this is what they rely on.

@dshipp17 said:

I'm not resistant to learning science; I have two degrees in two different science fields and I studied other science fields; what I'm presenting is actual science. You're passing on a false dichotomy by implying that viewing new evidence in a way that contradicts the currently accepted view of things does not represent actual science. I've shown scientists pointing out new experimental findings and reaching a valid conclusion that the evidence is showing something other than evolution. I'm not opposing anyone who's an expert in their field and claiming to be right about something; I'm gathering evidence from other experts in said field and presenting their conclusions that say the experiments are showing that the theories by the experts for the mainstream are proving to be wrong. I'm looking over the information that I present to make sure the information is probably correct before I present it. Since I studied the life sciences but did not get a degree in the life sciences, or even a minor, I do have to lean on the experts in that field to present correct data, since the information will be peer reviewed formally or by public opinion from being exposed to their peers. I’m not so much proclaiming to be right about the data so much as I’m presenting examples of people who are presenting experiments that are looking at the science in new and different ways. You seem willing to look at the data in different ways so long as it does not involve supporting Christianity; this tells me that you would rather be in denial about what new data is actually showing rather than not finding the evidence that supports Creation science; I say this, because you claim there’s scarce to no evidence supporting creation science. The term creation science should give most rational people the image that a community of scientists are at least attempting to back scientific information that might be supporting creation. You speak of it as if creation science is only being supported by amateur historians, church goers, church pastors, and maybe theologians; if you believe this than you’re misinformed about the field. You’re showing pride by not even giving the information they present your open mind; in other words, you’re refusing to be teachable; that, or you need to concede that, given that your field of expertise is in computer science and astronomy, you cannot definitively say whether their conclusions in life science, geology, or other field outside of computer science or astronomy is correct or not; however, you want to give the impression that you know with certainty that the information is not only wrong, but irrational, not realizing that scientific journals are being quoted/cited in the information presented on their websites.

The problem here is that "Creation Science" is not a valid field of science, it's pseudo-science. When you go out and find opinions from these "experts" that you're reading, you're ignoring that the vast majority of experts in the field reject these claims. You're cherry-picking which experts to believe, which is a sure road to confirmation bias.

You are correct, biology and anthropology are not my fields of study, which is why I go with what the scientific consensus is. I read articles from reputable sources and peer-reviewed papers. Then, when I see something contradicting those findings, I do research on that too. What I've found, in every case, is that the arguments from people expounding "creation science" are usually incorrect. A little research online quickly finds how they are wrong and how they're only trying to push their agenda and ideology.

But, ok... lets see it. Give us your best evidence that disproves evolution or common ancestry.

Alternately, give us a detailed theory of Creationism, complete with predictions that we can test. Lets see if Creationism holds up to scrutiny.

Avatar image for willpayton
willpayton

22502

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

I'm an atheist that was raised Roman Catholic. It was an interesting and, honestly, soul-wretching transition. I'm excited to watch this series.

I'm glad you liked it!

Avatar image for mysticmedivh
mysticmedivh

32487

Forum Posts

570

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#33  Edited By mysticmedivh

@willpayton Thank you for sharing this, an excellent and unique video indeed.

Avatar image for laflux
laflux

25242

Forum Posts

2367

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 2

#34  Edited By laflux

@willpayton: Heh my journey was from christianity to deism, but its still pretty relevant in anycase :)

Avatar image for willpayton
willpayton

22502

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@willpayton Thank you for sharing this, an excellent and unique video indeed.

@laflux said:

@willpayton: Heh my journey was from christianity to deism, but its still pretty relevant in anycase :)

Glad to hear you guys got something out of it. =)

Avatar image for kuonphobos
kuonphobos

5344

Forum Posts

135572

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 9

#36  Edited By kuonphobos

I had a few thoughts after watching video 2.1 Deconversion: Prayer

I can certainly understand his thoughts on intercessory prayer in the face of the idea of God's omniscience. I myself have struggled with this and honestly still do.

I also appreciate the study concerning the effectiveness of intercessory prayer he cites as well as the heuristic (prayer to milk)...

The heuristic is effective in showing the logic lying behind some attempts to elaborate the results of prayer but though the conclusion it reaches can be applied to many (or even most) it doesn't follow that it applies to every or all.

But as I was beginning this video I was struck by his initial comments about how he would pray as a child and then I was reminded that he was in an Assemblies of God milieu. The Assemblies of God and other Pentecostal denominations place a very heavy value upon the subjective and experiential. This extends to many of the high profile televangelists and their "name it claim it" or prosperity gospels where a person's faith is proven or disproved by the results of his prayers and actions.

All through this video in his own examples, his subtle transition while still a believer, the effectiveness study on cardiac patients and the milk heuristic, the overarching idea behind prayer is the result of that prayer.

For me this is only a part, and a small part at that, of the purpose behind prayer. Often in the bible calls or commands to prayer seem counter intuitive and illogical. One example is the parable of the woman who prayed night after night after night making it seem that her prayers were answered simply because she bugged the crap out of God and forced His hand.

I guess what I am trying to say is that for me, prayer is an exercise in obedience and faith and it really doesn't matter if there are any tangible results. I realize that this may seem like a cop out but I am honestly trying to be objective and honest. I can understand why he would abandon intercessory prayer ( and thus make it fade out of his mega-belief framework), but I don't agree that his reasons are applicable to all believers. For me prayer is about relationship. Imagine walking in a dangerous place with a dear friend in a situation where you are completely deprived of your sight, smell and hearing. Each time you reach out in the darkness just to touch the other to affirm they are there with you...that for me is prayer...

I realize that ultimately this video series is about his path but I assume that there is also an implicit underlying idea that his experience is normative because he is bringing in absolutes like logic, reason, science, philosophy, etc.

But ultimately (and this is the hard truth that Hitchens intuited) Christianity is a call to self-denial and self-sacrifice. Christians are instructed to "take up their cross" and what does this mean other than to prepare to live a life which may (or most probably will) result in mockery and execution. How many believers have been burned at the stake, burned alive, sold as slaves in the face of overwhelming silence of God?

This christian life is not the easy way out.....based on his evidence I feel he gave up this part of his structure much too easily....

Avatar image for frozen
frozen

40401

Forum Posts

258

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 14

#37 frozen  Moderator

@willpayton: I don't think I 'converted' but merely came to realization.

I began with a Deistic belief; I believed in God but I had been conditioned to think that this was a normal belief, I was Sikh in name but my belief was that of a Deistic approach. As a child in class; we were taught of Christianity in simplified terms, and the stories from The Bible were taught through children's books --- but even as a child, I could not really differentiate the stories in The Bible from other children's stories; I truly thought, and still do think what is the actual difference? The claims made in these Biblical stories seemed no more credible to me than other children's stories, which were ironically listed as 'fiction'. Even as a child, I could easily tell that Noah's Ark was full of B.S --- and I hope most self respecting adults, even teens can realize that such stories are simply fantasy.

But for much of my life; I was a Deist, with a vague conception of God until I began to question it. From then on, I read Atheist books and watched reels of Richard Dawkins --- and I became an Atheist.

Avatar image for frozen
frozen

40401

Forum Posts

258

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 14

#38  Edited By frozen  Moderator

@dshipp17: You claim to have ''multiple Science majors'' yet everything you spout indicates that you are completely and utterly disgracing Science and all that it stands for.

Avatar image for ccraft
ccraft

12437

Forum Posts

169

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 11

Hopefully I can get around to watching some of these videos this weekend >_>

Avatar image for deactivated-5a937e573d769
deactivated-5a937e573d769

7054

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

I'm definitely into the subject matter but first I'm going to read all the comments & then probably unintentionally offend a lot of people & get banned form posting for week again over people misunderstanding my meaning & putting there words into my mouth & before I can clarify what i mean I'll be flagged so many time that I'll get blocked.

Avatar image for dshipp17
dshipp17

7670

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

@dshipp17 said:

Please present some of the evidence showing that animals and humans evolved from a common ancestor; I do not remember seeing the evidence presented in these forums. I don't know of any evidence for evolution that the scientific community sees as fact; I know the scientific community sees evolution as fact but I don't know if that is because of any evidence supporting the idea of evolution. That's what I was saying: there was a view of evolution that has been out for awhile that recent experimentation has not verified; the scientific community is trying to verify evolution through experimentation, but as the efforts are started the idea is failing to show that the postulate is actually true.

The fact that you have to ask for evidence shows clearly that you havent even tried to look for it. If you Google "evidence for common ancestry", the first page is the wikipedia page with plenty of evidence:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_common_descent

From the RationalWiki page, lines of evidence for common descent:

  • Anatomical homologies - Throughout the domains of life, organisms show a distinct pattern of constraints based on homology in development and construction of the body. For example, tetrapods have five digits because the ancestor of tetrapods had five digits. When a tetrapod does not seem to have five obvious digits, a review of their development shows that they start development with five and that they fuse together later to form fewer numbers.
  • DNA and RNA code - Almost all organisms use the same three-letter code for translating RNA into proteins. There are variations, such as the code used by mitochondria and some bacteria and fungi, but the differences are only minor. Regardless of the slight differences, all organisms use the same coding mechanism for translating the code into amino acid sequences.
  • Endogenous retroviral insertions - Ancient retroviruses inserted inactivated viral genes into genomes. For a retrovirus to be inherited in all members of a species, a series of highly improbable events must occur. The virus must insert into a gamete cell and it must mutate so it is inactive. That gamete cell must be used to make an embryo that lives to reproduce and whose genome fixates into the population at random location in the genome. This rare event is usually species specific.
  • Pseudogenes - Shared errors are a powerful argument for a common source. If two books describe the same concept in similar language, it's possible they just both converged on the same wording. However, if they both share the same grammar or spelling errors it becomes improbable to assume that they did not derive from a common source. There are genes that no longer code for a protein due to a mutation or error. Species often share the same pseudogene with the same inactivating mutation. A famous example of this is the L-gulonolactone oxidase that synthesizes vitamin C. All simians including humans share one pseudogene of inactivated L-gulonolactone oxidase, but the guinea pig has a different pseudogene indicating a different mutation.
  • Embryology - The pharyngula stage of embryonic development appears to be highly conserved. At this stage, it is difficult to tell the difference between various vertebrate species. This conserved state screams common ancestry, and the field of evolutionary development has expanded our knowledge of developmental genes and their consequent embryo ontogeny to amazing levels of detail, all thanks to acknowledging common descent.
  • Chromosome fusion - Gene fusion or chromosome fusion is when two chromosomes are spliced together. As an example, chimpanzees have one more chromosome than humans do. If the two species share a common ancestor, scientists should be able to figure out what happened to that chromosome. Researchers have found that chromosome 2 in humans is actually the fusion of two separate chimpanzee chromosomes. At the end of each chromosome is a marker called a telomere, which usually appears only on the ends. In human chromosome 2 it also appears in the center, marking where the two ends fused.
  • Convergence - The phylogenetic trees constructed using anatomical homology, DNA homology, pseudogenes, endogenous retroviral insertions, and many other methods all converge on a similar looking tree. There are slight differences but the general relationships of the trees are intact. If any of these methods were flawed, they would not converge on the same tree.
  • Uniqueness - The complex, predictive patterns of similarities and differences in the world of life have have a unique known explanation - no one has even hypothesized an alternative account for the patterns exhibited - either there is common descent or there is something which is somehow simulating common descent.

It then goes on to elaborate on each one.

The Wikipedia page on human evolution has an entire section on fossil evidence:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution#Evidence

This paper talks about the fossil and DNA evidence:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/bies.950181204/abstract;jsessionid=9E14C27A86390F203062AF11D11DB1CE.f01t04

This article talks about a fossil of Ardipithecus ramidus that was found. This is the oldest known common ancestor between humans and apes:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/10/091001-oldest-human-skeleton-ardi-missing-link-chimps-ardipithecus-ramidus.html

If you want to get more into it, then read some books. This one goes into detail on how humans evolved:

http://books.google.com/books?id=ITp_RnsPfzQC&pg=PA17#v=onepage&q&f=false

I could keep going. There's way too much evidence to properly discuss here. A little research goes a long way. But, the key is that you have to go to reputable sources. If you insist on getting your information from Creationist and pseudo-scientific websites, then there's no hope. They're very good at pretending to know what they're talking about, and unless you're an expert in the field you wont be able to tell the difference between good science and crap. And, of course, this is what they rely on.

@dshipp17 said:

I'm not resistant to learning science; I have two degrees in two different science fields and I studied other science fields; what I'm presenting is actual science. You're passing on a false dichotomy by implying that viewing new evidence in a way that contradicts the currently accepted view of things does not represent actual science. I've shown scientists pointing out new experimental findings and reaching a valid conclusion that the evidence is showing something other than evolution. I'm not opposing anyone who's an expert in their field and claiming to be right about something; I'm gathering evidence from other experts in said field and presenting their conclusions that say the experiments are showing that the theories by the experts for the mainstream are proving to be wrong. I'm looking over the information that I present to make sure the information is probably correct before I present it. Since I studied the life sciences but did not get a degree in the life sciences, or even a minor, I do have to lean on the experts in that field to present correct data, since the information will be peer reviewed formally or by public opinion from being exposed to their peers. I’m not so much proclaiming to be right about the data so much as I’m presenting examples of people who are presenting experiments that are looking at the science in new and different ways. You seem willing to look at the data in different ways so long as it does not involve supporting Christianity; this tells me that you would rather be in denial about what new data is actually showing rather than not finding the evidence that supports Creation science; I say this, because you claim there’s scarce to no evidence supporting creation science. The term creation science should give most rational people the image that a community of scientists are at least attempting to back scientific information that might be supporting creation. You speak of it as if creation science is only being supported by amateur historians, church goers, church pastors, and maybe theologians; if you believe this than you’re misinformed about the field. You’re showing pride by not even giving the information they present your open mind; in other words, you’re refusing to be teachable; that, or you need to concede that, given that your field of expertise is in computer science and astronomy, you cannot definitively say whether their conclusions in life science, geology, or other field outside of computer science or astronomy is correct or not; however, you want to give the impression that you know with certainty that the information is not only wrong, but irrational, not realizing that scientific journals are being quoted/cited in the information presented on their websites.

The problem here is that "Creation Science" is not a valid field of science, it's pseudo-science. When you go out and find opinions from these "experts" that you're reading, you're ignoring that the vast majority of experts in the field reject these claims. You're cherry-picking which experts to believe, which is a sure road to confirmation bias.

You are correct, biology and anthropology are not my fields of study, which is why I go with what the scientific consensus is. I read articles from reputable sources and peer-reviewed papers. Then, when I see something contradicting those findings, I do research on that too. What I've found, in every case, is that the arguments from people expounding "creation science" are usually incorrect. A little research online quickly finds how they are wrong and how they're only trying to push their agenda and ideology.

But, ok... lets see it. Give us your best evidence that disproves evolution or common ancestry.

Alternately, give us a detailed theory of Creationism, complete with predictions that we can test. Lets see if Creationism holds up to scrutiny.

This is the first part of my response to you. These are the fundamentals of creation, before I address your points individually. These are to clear up a few assumptions that have supported evolution.

“Hence, the geological, biological and cosmological sciences have been established as ivory towers, from which so-called proofs of evolution emanate, while the scientist practitioners within these disciplines are the gurus who promote, preach and publish what is regarded as scientific data supporting evolution. But there is not one single instance whereby all the tests essential to the establishment of the scientific validity of evolution have been satisfied. There are hypotheses, grandiose models, suppositions and inferences, all of which are formulated and reinforced within the collective and self-serving collaborations of the evolutionist gurus. However, none of this amounts to true scientific evidence for evolution.”, Edward A. Boudreaux, Theoretical Chemistry

Circumstantial Evidence for Creation

Each chemical element, such as carbon and oxygen, consists of atoms. Each atom is thought to be made up of three basic parts. The nucleus contains protons (tiny particles each with a single positive electric charge) and neutrons (particles without any electric charge). Orbiting around the nucleus are electrons (tiny particles each with a single negative electric charge). The atoms of each element may vary slightly in the numbers of neutrons within their nuclei. These variations are called isotopes of that element. While the number of neutrons varies, every atom of any element always has the same number of protons and electrons. So, for example, every carbon atom contains six protons and six electrons, but the number of neutrons in each nucleus can be six, seven, or even eight. Therefore, carbon has three isotopes (variations), which are specified carbon-12, carbon-13, and carbon-14. Some isotopes are radioactive; that is, they are unstable because their nuclei are too large. To achieve stability, the atom must make adjustments, particularly in its nucleus. In some cases, the isotopes eject particles, primarily neutrons and protons. (These are the moving particles measured by Geiger counters and the like.) The end result is a stable atom, but of a different chemical element (not carbon) because the atom now has a different number of protons and electrons. This process of changing one element (designated as the parent isotope) into another element (referred to as the daughter isotope) is called radioactive decay. The parent isotopes that decay are called radioisotopes.

Geologists regularly use five parent isotopes to date rocks: uranium-238, uranium-235, potassium-40, rubidium-87, and samarium-147. These parent radioisotopes change into daughter lead-206, lead-207, argon-40, strontium-87, and neodymium-143 isotopes, respectively. Thus geologists refer to uranium-lead (two versions), potassium-argon, rubidium-strontium, or samarium-neodymium dates for rocks. Note that the carbon-14 (or radiocarbon) method is not used to date rocks because most rocks do not contain carbon. Geologists can’t use just any old rock for dating. They must find rocks that have the isotopes listed above, even if these isotopes are present only in minute amounts. Most often, this is a rock body, or unit, that has formed from the cooling of molten rock material (called magma). Examples are granites (formed by cooling under the ground) and basalts (formed by cooling of lava at the earth’s surface). The next step is to measure the amount of the parent and daughter isotopes in a sample of the rock unit. Specially equipped laboratories can do this with accuracy and precision. So, in general, few people quarrel with the resulting chemical analyses. It is the interpretation of these chemical analyses that raises potential problems. To understand how geologists “read” the age of a rock from these chemical analyses, let’s use the analogy of an hourglass “clock”.

In an hourglass, grains of fine sand fall at a steady rate from the top bowl to the bottom. After one hour, all the sand has fallen into the bottom bowl. So, after only half an hour, half the sand should be in the top bowl, and the other half should be in the bottom bowl. Suppose that a person did not observe when the hourglass was turned over. He walks into the room when half the sand is in the top bowl, and half the sand is in the bottom bowl. Most people would assume that the “clock” started half an hour earlier. By way of analogy, the sand grains in the top bowl represent atoms of the parent radioisotope (uranium-238, potassium-40, etc.) (Figure 2). The falling sand represents radioactive decay, and the sand at the bottom represents the daughter isotope (lead-206, argon-40, etc). When a geologist tests a rock sample, he assumes all the daughter atoms were produced by the decay of the parent since the rock formed. So if he knows the rate at which the parent decays, he can calculate how long it took for the daughter (measured in the rock today) to form.

Most people think that radioactive dating has proven the earth is billions of years old. Yet this view is based on a misunderstanding of how radiometric dating works. No geologists were present when most rocks formed, so they cannot test whether the original rocks already contained daughter isotopes alongside their parent radioisotopes. For example, with regard to the volcanic lavas that erupted, flowed, and cooled to form rocks in the unobserved past, evolutionary geologists simply assume that none of the daughter argon-40 atoms was in the lava rocks. For the other radioactive “clocks,” it is assumed that by analyzing multiple samples of a rock body, or unit, today it is possible to determine how much of the daughter isotopes (lead, strontium, or neodymium) were present when the rock formed. Yet lava flows that have occurred in the present have been tested soon after they erupted, and they invariably contained much more argon-40 than expected.1 For example, when a sample of the lava in the Mt. St. Helens crater (that had been observed to form and cool in 1986) was analyzed in 1996, it contained so much argon-40 that it had a calculated “age” of 350,000 years!2 Similarly, lava flows on the sides of Mt. Ngauruhoe, New Zealand, known to be less than 50 years old, yielded “ages” of up to 3.5 million years. So it is logical to conclude that if recent lava flows of known age yield incorrect old potassium-argon ages due to the extra argon-40 that they inherited from the erupting volcanoes, then ancient lava flows of unknown ages could likewise have inherited extra argon-40 and yield excessively old ages. There are similar problems with the other radioactive “clocks.” For example, consider the dating of Grand Canyon’s basalts (rocks formed by lava cooling at the earth’s surface). We find places on the North Rim where volcanoes erupted after the Canyon was formed, sending lavas cascading over the walls and down into the Canyon. Obviously, these eruptions took place very recently, after the Canyon’s layers were deposited. These basalts yield ages of up to 1 million years based on the amounts of potassium and argon isotopes in the rocks. But when we date the rocks using the rubidium and strontium isotopes, we get an age of 1.143 billion years. This is the same age that we get for the basalt layers deep below the walls of the eastern Grand Canyon.4

How could both lavas—one at the top and one at the bottom of the Canyon—be the same age based on these parent and daughter isotopes? One solution is that both the recent and early lava flows inherited the same rubidium-strontium chemistry—not age—from the same source, deep in the earth’s upper mantle. This source already had both rubidium and strontium. To make matters even worse for the claimed reliability of these radiometric dating methods, these same basalts that flowed from the top of the Canyon yield a samarium-neodymium age of about 916 million years,5 and a uranium-lead age of about 2.6 billion years!6

The problems with contamination, as with inheritance, are already well-documented in the textbooks on radioactive dating of rocks.7 Unlike the hourglass, where its two bowls are sealed, the radioactive “clock” in rocks is open to contamination by gain or loss of parent or daughter isotopes because of waters flowing in the ground from rainfall and from the molten rocks beneath volcanoes. Similarly, as molten lava rises through a conduit from deep inside the earth to be erupted through a volcano, pieces of the conduit wallrocks and their isotopes can mix into the lava and contaminate it. Because of such contamination, the less than 50-year-old lava flows at Mt. Ngauruhoe, New Zealand, yield a rubidium-strontium “age” of 133 million years, a samarium-neodymium “age” of 197 million years, and a uranium-lead “age” of 3.908 billion years!

Physicists have carefully measured the radioactive decay rates of parent radioisotopes in laboratories over the last 100 or so years and have found them to be essentially constant (within the measurement error margins). Furthermore, they have not been able to significantly change these decay rates by heat, pressure, or electrical and magnetic fields. So geologists have assumed these radioactive decay rates have been constant for billions of years. However, this is an enormous extrapolation of seven orders of magnitude back through immense spans of unobserved time without any concrete proof that such an extrapolation is credible. Nevertheless, geologists insist the radioactive decay rates have always been constant, because it makes these radioactive clocks “work”! New evidence, however, has recently been discovered that can only be explained by the radioactive decay rates not having been constant in the past.9 For example, the radioactive decay of uranium in tiny crystals in a New Mexico granite yields a uranium-lead “age” of 1.5 billion years. Yet the same uranium decay also produced abundant helium, but only 6,000 years worth of that helium was found to have leaked out of the tiny crystals. This means that the uranium must have decayed very rapidly over the same 6,000 years that the helium was leaking. The rate of uranium decay must have been at least 250,000 times faster than today’s measured rate! For more details see Don DeYoung’s Thousands . . . Not Billions (Master Books, Green Forest, Arkansas, 2005), pages 65–78.

It is immediately apparent that the ages for each rock unit do not agree. Indeed, in the Cardenas Basalt, for example, the samarium-neodymium age is three times the potassium-argon age. Nevertheless, the ages follow three obvious patterns. Two techniques (potassium-argon age and rubidium-strontium) always yield younger ages than two other techniques (uranium-lead and samarium-neodymium). Furthermore, the potassium-argon ages are always younger than the rubidium-strontium ages. And often the samarium-neodymium ages are younger than the uranium-lead ages. What then do these patterns mean? All the radioactive clocks in each rock unit should have started “ticking” at the same time, the instant that each rock unit was formed. So how do we explain that they have each recorded different ages? The answer is simple but profound. Each of the radioactive elements must have decayed at different, faster rates in the past! In the case of the Cardenas Basalt, while the potassium-argon clock ticked through 516 million years, two other clocks ticked through 1,111 million years and 1,588 million years. So if these clocks ticked at such different rates in the past, not only are they inaccurate, but these rocks may not be millions of years old. Why then should we expect the radioactive clocks to yield relative ages that follow a logical pattern? (Actually, younger sedimentary layers yield a similar general pattern). The answer is again simple but profound! The radioactive clocks in the rock units at the bottom of the Grand Canyon, formed during Creation Week, have been ticking for longer than the radioactive clocks in the younger sedimentary layers higher up in the sequence that were formed later during the Flood.

Although it is a mistake to accept radioactive dates of millions of years, the clocks can still be useful to us, in principle, to date the relative sequence of rock formation during earth history. The different clocks have ticked at different, faster rates in the past, so the standard old ages are certainly not accurate, correct, or absolute. However, because the radioactive clocks in rocks that formed early in earth history have been ticking longer, they should generally yield older radioactive ages than rock layers formed later. So it is possible that relative radioactive ages of rocks, in addition to mineral contents and other rock features, could be used to compare and correlate similar rocks in other areas to find which ones formed at the same time during the events detailed in Genesis, God’s eyewitness account of earth history.

The properties of certain elements on the Periodic Table of the Elements is evidence for Creation. Carbon has some of the most unique properties of the chemical elements. Carbon is the element most likely found in biological life forms. Carbon can participate in all know forms of covalent bonding. This feature of carbon is called catenation. Although silicon, nitrogen, sulphur, and phosphorous have a limited ability for catenation, their abilities do not come close to carbon. Without carbon’s strong ability for catenation, the formation of proteins, DNA, RNA, and cellulose would be impossible. There is no other element that can replace carbon in biomolecules, without destroying its biological integrity. Additionally, carbon only makes up 0.0017% of the earth’s composition.

Elements such as carbon, nitrogen, sulphur, and phosphorus are called main group elements. With the exception of oxygen, atoms of these elements are stable only when even numbers of their electrons unite in pairs. Atoms with unpaired electrons are usually unstable, chemically speaking. Oxygen’s singular exception to the electron pair rule of stability for the main group elements has no know explanation. Oxygen exists in nature as a diatomic molecule. The only other diatomic element with unpaired electrons, sulphur, is very unstable and does not occur as a diatomic molecule naturally. Metallic elements such as chromium, iron, and nickel are called transition metals. Transition metals contain unpaired electrons and are stable, chemically speaking. Oxygen would not be capable of binding to the iron atoms in hemoglobin, with precisely the amount of energy needed to carry diatomic oxygen into the bloodstream and release it, if it were not for the two unpaired electrons. Although carbon monoxide and nitrogen monoxide can replace diatomic oxygen in binding to hemoglobin, they will completely destroy the function of hemoglobin. Similarly, binding between a transition metal and oxygen, other than iron, in hemoglobin, would either be too strong or too weak. Transporting oxygen through blood by hemoglobin is apart of metabolism.

Proteins are composed of amino acids bonded together by polypeptide bonds. Amino acids are organic molecules containing amines or hydrocarbons containing a nitrogen element, plus a carboxylic acid group. Although amino acids can come in thousands of varieties, only 20 amino acids are involved in all protein structures. Amino acids exists in the D and L forms, yet all proteins are made of only in the L form amino acids. Sugars are made up of carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen and exists in the form of D and L isomers. While sugars can come in many varieties, only the simplest, 5-member ring structures called ribose, in only its D form, is present as one of three fundamental molecular components in the structures of DNA and RNA. The molecules that make of DNA and RNA are also called nucleosides. Each nucleotide is bound to one specific carbon atom on each ribose unit. In the case of RNA, the structure is a single-stranded right-handed helix containing four different nucleotides (adenine, cytosine, guanine, uracil) arranged in very specific repeating sequences throughout the length of the chain. Each type of RNA has a different pattern in the sequencing of the four nucleotides. The DNA structure consists of a right-handed double helix, also containing four nucleotides. Three of these are the same as in RNA, but one is different: thymine replaces uracil. Nucleotides belong to two classes of molecules called purines and pyrimidines. Adenine and guanine are purines, while cytosine, thymine and uracil are pyrimidines. There are many hundreds of varieties of purines and pyrimidines, but only these select five determine the structures and functions of DNA and RNA. These few examples contain clear evidence of complex design imparting tailor-made functions. Such characteristics defy the probability that any random evolutionary process could account for such unique specificity in design. Consequently, it should take considerably more faith to believe in evolution rather than divine creation.

It was found that the amino acid sequences for myoglobin and hemoglobin from various species of kangaroo, echidna, and platypus were different, and the sequence information could be used to evaluate the phylogenetic relationship of these animals.

Recent advances in biology permit us to ask whether it is still reasonable to suppose that living organisms evolved on a hypothetical primordial earth from mixes of organic chemicals. At the time when the modern versions of these theories were first entertained, in the 1920s, so little was known about the biochemical realities that undergird living organisms that such proposals seemed reasonable. But now we know that even the simplest of living cells, bacteria (that are not parasitic), must contain thousands of complex structural and catalytic proteins, a variety of nucleic acids, hundreds of small bio-molecules, all in a dynamic nonequilibrium steady state. Within live cells, we see numerous series of interconnected chemical conversions (“pathways”) that are functioning uninterrupted. Their continuous activities are due to steady supplies of starting material and the ongoing utilization of end products. The recycling of waste to biosynthetic precursors completes the cycling of matter through living systems. The absence of any component of these complex series of chemical changes will cause defective operation or even death to the cell. Is it reasonable, then, to suppose that when living cells were first brought into existence, all of their components must have been present and functioning? If this is so, then living cells had to be made rapidly. The same suggestion may be made for all of the components of the ecological system, where mutual support and interdependence exist. It is sensible to suppose that these were created simultaneously.

DNA1 evidence is often claimed to give support to the evolutionary theory; in reality, DNA illustrates God’s handiwork of design in a powerful way. Let us consider the complexity of this important component of living systems in order to see how absurd it is to believe that life could come about by chance. DNA is the primary information-carrying molecule of living organisms. The beauty and wonder of this molecule can hardly be overstated when one considers its properties. Being the blueprint of living cells, it stores all the information necessary for the cell to feed and protect itself, as well as propagate itself into more living cells, and to cooperate with other living cells that make up a complex organism. If the DNA of one human cell were unraveled and held in a straight line, it would literally be almost one meter long and yet be so thin that it would be invisible to all but the most powerful microscopes. Consider that this string of DNA must be packaged into a space that is much smaller than the head of a pin2 and that this tiny string of human DNA contains enough information to fill almost 1,000 books, each containing 1,000 pages of text.3 Human engineers would have a most difficult time trying to fit one such book into that amount of space; one thousand books in that amount of space boggles the mind! For compactness and information-carrying ability, no human invention has even come close to matching the design of this remarkable molecule. Amazing as the DNA molecule may be, there is much, much more to life than DNA alone; life is possible only if the DNA blueprint can be read and put into action by the complex machinery of living cells. But the complex machinery of the living cell requires DNA if it is going to exist in the first place, since DNA is the source of the code of instructions to put together the machinery. Without the cellular machinery, we would have no DNA since it is responsible for synthesizing DNA; without DNA we would have no cellular machinery. Since DNA and the machinery of the cell are codependent, the complete system must be present from the beginning or it will be meaningless bits and pieces.

In order to emphasize this codependence of the cellular machinery and DNA, let us examine some proteins (i.e., the machinery) that are directly involved in the conversion of the DNA blueprint into more proteins. Before we list the processes and proteins associated with converting DNA information into proteins, we should emphasize the following points: (1) each and every step in the overall process absolutely requires protein(s) that are unique and extremely complex; and (2) these unique and complex proteins can only be produced by the overall process in which they themselves are critically involved. The making of RNA4 from a DNA template is a critical first step in the process of protein formation. For RNA to be synthesized, no fewer than five different protein chains5 must cooperate. Four of these proteins form the RNA polymerase complex and the last one tells the RNA polymerase where to start reading the DNA template. This enzyme complex must recognize where to start transcribing DNA into RNA; it must then move along the DNA strand, adding individual building blocks6 to the growing RNA chain; and lastly, it must know where to finish the transcription process. It is not enough, however, simply to make one kind of RNA; three different types of RNA are required in the process of making proteins: messenger RNA (mRNA), ribosomal RNA (rRNA) and transfer RNA (tRNA). Molecules of mRNA carry the information extracted from the DNA blueprint which encodes the protein to be synthesized; rRNA molecules make up a critical component of ribosomes; and tRNA is responsible for carrying individual amino acids to the site where they will be added to a new protein. Before tRNA molecules can serve their proper function, however, they must be charged with a suitable amino acid in order that it can be added on to a growing protein chain at the appropriate time. At least 20 different aminoacyl-tRNA synthetase proteins are necessary to attach individual amino acids to the corresponding tRNA molecules (at least one for each type of amino acid). Once mRNA, tRNA and rRNA molecules have been synthesized, it is then necessary to translate the information from the mRNA into a protein molecule. This process is carried out by a huge complex of proteins called the ribosome. These amazing protein synthesis “machines” contain multiple different proteins, together with various ribosomal RNA molecules all associated into two main subunits. In a simple bacterium such as E. coli, ribosomes are composed of some 50 different proteins7 and three different rRNAs! The reactions mentioned above are only the core reactions in the process of synthesizing proteins; we have not even discussed the energy molecules that must be present for many of these reactions to proceed. Where is the energy going to come from to produce these energized molecules? How will the cell harvest energy unless it has some sort of mechanism for doing so? And, where is an energy-harvesting mechanism going to come from if not from pre-encoded information located in the cell?

A quick summation will reveal that the process of converting DNA information into proteins requires at least 75 different protein molecules. But each and every one of these 75 proteins must be synthesized in the first place by the process in which they themselves are involved. How could the process begin without the presence of all the necessary proteins? Could all 75 proteins have arisen by chance in just the right place at just the right time? Could it be that a strand of DNA with all the necessary information for making this exact same set of proteins just happened to be in the same place as all these proteins? And could it be that all the precursor molecules also happened to be around in their energized form so as to allow the proteins to utilize them properly? Needless to say, without proteins life would not exist; it is as simple as that. The same is true of DNA and RNA. It should be clear that DNA, RNA and proteins must all be present if any of them are going to be present in a living organism. Life must have been created completely functional, or it would be a meaningless mess. So, we truly have a “which came first?” problem on our hands. I believe the answer is, of course, that none of them came first! God came first; He designed and then created all of life with His spoken Word. DNA, RNA and protein came all at exactly the same time. It is extremely difficult to understand how anyone could believe that this astoundingly complicated DNA-blueprint translation system happened to come about by chance.

Now let us consider the probability of just one of the above 75 proteins coming about by chance. Consider a smaller than average protein of just 100 amino acid residues. If all the necessary left-handed amino acids were actually available, and if the interfering compounds, including right-handed amino acids, were somehow eliminated, and if our pool of amino acids were somehow able to join individual amino acids together into protein chains faster than the proteins normally fall apart, then the chances of this random 100 amino-acid protein having the correct sequence would be 1 in 20^100 possible sequence combinations; 20 available amino acids raised to the power of the number of residues in the protein, i.e., 1 in 1.268 x 10^130, or 1 in 12, 680, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000.

To put this number in some perspective, we must do some calculations. The reader may wish to skip ahead if the absurdity of chance giving birth to order is already appreciated. Let us take a more-than-generous scenario and see how desolate the theory of evolution becomes in view of the probabilities. The earth has a mass of around 5.97 x 10^27 grams. If the entire mass of the earth were converted to amino acids, there would be in the order of 3.27 x 10^49 amino acid molecules available.8 If all of these molecules were converted into 100-residue proteins,9 there would be 3.27 x 10^47 proteins. Since there are 1.27 x 10^130 possible combinations of amino acids in a 100-mer protein (see above), a division of the number of possibilities by the number of proteins present on our hypothetical globe shows that the chances of having just one correct sequence in that entire globe of 100-mer proteins is 1 in 3.88 x 10^82.

Even if each of these 3.27 x 10^47 100-mer proteins could be rearranged many times over into different sequences during the timespan of the earth, the chances that one correct sequence would be produced are still not close to being realistic. Consider that there are “only” 1.45 x 10^17 seconds in the mythical evolutionary age of the earth.11 It can be calculated that each and every 100-mer protein in that hypothetical earth would need to rearrange itself an average of 2.67 x 10^65 times per second in order to try all possible combinations!12 The 100-amino-acid molecules could not even come close to assembling and disassembling that quickly. It is physically impossible.

An age of 4.6 billion years is an extremely long time, to be sure, but I suspect evolutionists wish they had picked a much larger number for the age of the earth and of the universe. It becomes obvious why evolutionists are never quick to point out the actual numbers associated with the probabilities of life coming about by chance. Remember, we have only examined a small protein of 100 amino acids. The very same calculations could be performed considering that we need at least the 75 proteins mentioned above in order to have a self-replicating system. For 75 proteins of the same size, the probability of obtaining the correct sequences for all of them comes to 20^7500 or 3.7779 x 10^9700. (That is correct, almost 9,700 zeros.).

Even if there were oceans full of amino acids just trying all kinds of different combinations, a correctly formed molecule in the Indian Ocean is not going to be able to cooperate very easily with another correctly formed molecule in the Atlantic Ocean. Nor would a correct sequence of amino acids be able to interact with another functional protein which happened to occur in the same physical location but a mere one year later. Truly, the thought of even one single functional protein arising by chance requires blind faith that will not or cannot grasp the numbers! Such thoughts are pure fantasy and have nothing to do with science.

It is no wonder that evolutionists have not come up with any specific scenarios that would explain how life arose from nonliving chemicals. The stories that are put forward are like fairy tales with some science thrown in to make them sound educated. One popular biochemistry textbook admits that there is no physical evidence for the transition of life from nonlife:

“Our hypothetical nucleic acid synthesis system is therefore analogous to the scaffolding used in the construction of a building. After the building has been erected the scaffolding is removed, leaving no physical evidence that it was ever there. Most of the statements in this section must therefore be taken as educated guesses. Without having witnessed the event, it seems unlikely that we shall ever be certain of how life arose” Donald Voet and Judith G. Voet, Biochemistry, John Wiley and Sons, New York, p. 23, 1995. Far from being educated guesses, the many deceptive evolutionary scenarios seem to be nothing short of biased myths arising from the desperate desire to exclude God from lives and consciences. How do evolutionists respond to the zero likelihood of life arising by chance? The biochemistry text quoted above asks and then answers the question: “How then did life arise? The answer, most probably, is that it was guided according to the Darwinian principle of the survival of the fittest as it applies at the molecular level.”14 The key fact to note here is that natural selection simply cannot act unless there are functional, self-replicating molecules present to act on. We have already seen that no such system could possibly appear by chance. Life in its totality must have been created in the beginning, just as God told us.

It is clear that the whole cell system is a minimum unit of organism heredity. Genic processes have much to do with variation within kinds, but probably little to do with the distinction of kinds. Genes are best regarded as triggers in complex developmental systems rather than as creators or causes of organic structures. In this regard I found that there had been a vibrant creationist research program in developmental biology before Darwin that has been partly taken up again by the modern “structuralist” biologists (e.g., Stuart Kauffman and Brian Goodwin). Not surprisingly, the latter evolutionists are anti-Darwinian and anti-Dawkins. However, their work can readily be interpreted in creationist terms. It may, of course, ultimately prove wrong (our science is always approximate and liable to error), but it at least makes the point that creationism is not a science stopper. In my view, evolutionary explanations turn out to be fatally inconsistent, A Creationist Critique of Homology, Creation Research Society Quarterly 19(3):166–75, 1982 and 20(2):122, 1983, Developmental Studies and Speciation in Cichlid Fish. Ph.D. thesis, Department of Zoology and Comparative Physiology, Birmingham University, United Kingdom, 1972, Diss S2 B72, and The Genetic Integrity of the “Kinds” (Baramin)—A Working Hypothesis, Creation Research Society Quarterly 19(1):13–18, 1982.

In Miller’s experiment, amino acids were produced only because they were removed from the experiment as soon as they were formed. Had they been left in the apparatus, then they would have been destroyed by the same electrical discharge that caused them to be synthesized. Furthermore, the amino acids that are produced in all such experiments are in the right-handed as well as the left-handed forms, whereas living systems contain only left-handed amino acids. Additionally, had oxygen been present in the mixture of gases, the amino acids would not have formed in such experiments. This point is extremely important because the evidence from geology indicates that the earth’s atmosphere has always contained oxygen. Hence, the mixture of gases in such experiments does not mimic the composition of the earth’s atmosphere. This means that the experiments have absolutely nothing at all to do with what may or may not have happened on the so-called prebiotic earth. The fossil record does not show the gradual evolution of one life-form into another as predicted and demanded by evolution. The missing links are called that because they are truly missing—none has ever been found. There are gaps in the fossil record at all the major breaks: fish to amphibian, amphibians to reptiles, reptiles to birds, and reptiles to mammals. Furthermore, no fossil remains of any creature linking humans to ape-like ancestors have ever been discovered; half-ape/half-human creatures are figments of the imagination of the artists who draw them for the books in which they appear.

Loading Video...

Loading Video...

Avatar image for ccraft
ccraft

12437

Forum Posts

169

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 11

@willpayton: Do all Atheist lose emotion from their speech? I'm joking of course, but it makes it very hard to listen to his videos. I'd rather listen to that guy from ancient alien than him :p

Anyways I didn't really learn anything new from the history videos. I'm continuing to watch his other videos, they're well made, but he could change the tone of his voice to make it more enjoyable.

Avatar image for willpayton
willpayton

22502

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@dshipp17 said:


This is the first part of my response to you.

...

As far as I can tell this is all just copied from Answersingenesis, a Creationist website. I have no intention to read all that, or watch the videos. Why?

Because since you are not an expert in a relevant field like biology (you said so previously), you're really in no position to say whether all that text is convincing or just bullshit. You also agree previously with this position:

@dshipp17 said:

or you need to concede that, given that your field of expertise is in computer science and astronomy, you cannot definitively say whether their conclusions in life science, geology, or other field outside of computer science or astronomy is correct or not

So now we have a situation where you're claiming that Evolution is not correct, but... what are you basing your opinion on? You're not an expert, so you cant really tell if any of that stuff is valid or not, and the stuff you're posting isnt even from peer-reviewed sources (people who ARE experts).

What you're doing is simply cherry-picking articles from people you already agree with, and ignoring what the scientific consensus says... which is what you should be listening to as a non-expert.

I just dont understand how you dont see the problems with what you're doing. You're falling victim to confirmation bias, cherry-picking, and thinking that you're expert enough to ignore the scientific consensus.

I'm not sure how else to point this out to you. If you dont understand that going around only listening to people who are considered crackpots in their fields and who simply agree with your own pre-established beliefs is a bad thing, then there's no way to help you.

Avatar image for willpayton
willpayton

22502

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#44  Edited By willpayton

@ccraft said:

@willpayton: Do all Atheist lose emotion from their speech? I'm joking of course, but it makes it very hard to listen to his videos. I'd rather listen to that guy from ancient alien than him :p

Anyways I didn't really learn anything new from the history videos. I'm continuing to watch his other videos, they're well made, but he could change the tone of his voice to make it more enjoyable.

LOL... actually my girlfriend had the same reaction to his voice. She said he sounded like a "robot".... hahaha. Personally I dont see it. Sure, he talks in a very calm way, but I appreciate it because it tells me that he's thinking about what he says and not talking from emotion. I tend to get turned off when I watch YT videos and the people are either yelling or just overly emotional or angry... no matter what side of an issue they're on.

Avatar image for ccraft
ccraft

12437

Forum Posts

169

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 11

#45  Edited By ccraft

@willpayton: Ah so I'm not a jerk after all ^_^

I think if he'd put a little more enthusiasm into his speech it would go a long way in reaching those who are religious and looking for some answers outside of the bible. Speaking without emotion will show those who are already Atheist that he's speaking with reason and without emotion, but to those who are religious he might come off as cold or sounding like a "robot". The presentation of any subject is very important, humans respond better with stories than they do with cold facts, and he presented his facts in a story format which was very smart. Have you ever had to sit threw a presentation with just facts? It's quite hard to sit threw and even much harder to grasp the information.

Avatar image for frozen
frozen

40401

Forum Posts

258

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 14

#46 frozen  Moderator

@willpayton: I advise you not to waste your time with Dshipp. His ''multiple Science degrees'' compared to his comments about Young Earth Creationism and seeing no evidence for Evolution indicate he is either a troll or simply deluded.

Avatar image for johnfrank120
johnfrank120

6702

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@frozen said:

multiple Science degrees

Awh, shucks, years of hard work and not 1 so far for me

Avatar image for lordraiden
lordraiden

9699

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

This is one of the most intriguing concepts and best things I got out of this video....

"The concept of god is intricate and profound, if it were real it would have drastic implications for the world we live in, but in all of academia, through all the disciplines, we have found no reasons to believe that it is anything more than a concept.

The philosopher Jean Baudrillard defines the term simulacrum as something that is only an image of something either real or imagined, that is interacted with as if it really is what it represents. This interaction can be referred to as a simulation of what a real interaction with the real thing would be like, so for example, if someone wears a pendant, and believes it is lucky, the physical pendant has become a simulacrum of the magical pendant. To the wearer it represents the idea of a magical pendant and is treated directly as if it were magical. When a person believes that it brings them luck they're simulating the experience that the pendant actually is magical. The physical pendant itself can be completely mundane and have no magical properties whatsoever but to the wearer, who is simulating a magical experience in their mind, otherwise mundane but fortunate events are perceived as if they contain that persons consciousness.

According to Baudrillard, god himself, as experienced by the religious, was probably just another simulacrum, an image representing the concept of a supreme being religious followers simulated, an experience of this supreme being in their own mind, by the way they interpreted other wise natural events. But this experience most likely involved no actual supreme being interacting with them at all, so when someone experiences profound emotions due to what they perceive as the holy spirit, they are, according to Baudrillard, just simulating subconsciously in their own mind what they would feel like if the holy spirit actually existed and was reaching out to them. They experience real emotions, but they were in response to a simulated experience and it felt real because there mind made it feel real, because our brains , apparently, are profoundly adapt at creating simulations for our consciousness to experience, as far as I can tell based on the literature, the primary psychological function of the concept of the personal god is to give the believer a surrogate parent, as some minds are able to become independent of parental figures, others are not."

This is one of the best descriptions religion and the concept of god for me, personally.

Avatar image for dshipp17
dshipp17

7670

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#49  Edited By dshipp17

@willpayton said:

@dshipp17 said:

This is the first part of my response to you.

...

As far as I can tell this is all just copied from Answersingenesis, a Creationist website. I have no intention to read all that, or watch the videos. Why?

Because since you are not an expert in a relevant field like biology (you said so previously), you're really in no position to say whether all that text is convincing or just bullshit. You also agree previously with this position:

@dshipp17 said:

or you need to concede that, given that your field of expertise is in computer science and astronomy, you cannot definitively say whether their conclusions in life science, geology, or other field outside of computer science or astronomy is correct or not

So now we have a situation where you're claiming that Evolution is not correct, but... what are you basing your opinion on? You're not an expert, so you cant really tell if any of that stuff is valid or not, and the stuff you're posting isnt even from peer-reviewed sources (people who ARE experts).

What you're doing is simply cherry-picking articles from people you already agree with, and ignoring what the scientific consensus says... which is what you should be listening to as a non-expert.

I just dont understand how you dont see the problems with what you're doing. You're falling victim to confirmation bias, cherry-picking, and thinking that you're expert enough to ignore the scientific consensus.

I'm not sure how else to point this out to you. If you dont understand that going around only listening to people who are considered crackpots in their fields and who simply agree with your own pre-established beliefs is a bad thing, then there's no way to help you.

So far, all of the information that I cited is related to interpreting chemistry; I am a chemist so I know the information is not crook. All of the information posted is based on sound and logical chemical principles. Although these scientific articles may not be peer reviewed, and few presentations in this context have been, on both sides, the content of the information has been peer reviewed and are in college level textbooks in chemistry. The properties of nuclear decay do not change simply because they were posted by a creation scientist instead of an atheist scientist. Actually, to throw your point back at you, where is the evidence that any of the articles that you presented have been peer reviewed? You're overstating the importance of having something peer reviewed anyway. Why would you tell me to present evidence for creation, on the one hand, than tell me that you won't examine it, on the other hand? Why such a slide of hand? Seems to me that you simply don't want there to be evidence for creation, not a matter of whether you can find any evidence of creation. But, you've taken this approach before; you should stop confusing posters who might see information such as this for the first time by making claims that there is no evidence for something when you truly have not backed up your claims. I checked the backgrounds of the scientists who contributed to the articles and neither is considered a crackpot in their field; you just slung a malicious attack on someone's credibility without even knowing who you're attacking; but, they are only presenting and discussion the principles of chemistry; the random attacks of people over the internet who are not experts in the field does not render someone a crackpot scientist; I do know someone who was legitimately attacked, but this person's contributions were removed from websites and magazines, once their information was properly shown to be incorrect.

I can say the same thing about the information you posted. You posted a lot of information from sources that are in line with your position, but you are not an expert in the life sciences; and, unlike my case, where I'm interpreting chemistry, you're posting data where you are not examining the concepts of computer science or interpreting astronomy. I copied some information from the websites, because the information would be identical to anything in chemistry textbooks and anything that I could write and still be discussing chemistry. How would you know it's copied from any website, if you didn't read it all the way through? The reason I started with this information and not rebutting the material you posted is because I wanted to began by dealing with chemistry instead of the life sciences. I also said that I studied the life sciences but didn't get a degree or certificate; therefore, I can interpret data from life science and know whether the information is crook or logical, at least in the topic of discussion; there are branches in the life sciences where I have zero experience but those branches are not applicable to this discussion.

My model is trust but verify; they are expert in their fields, but I'm not going to replace my faith in the Bible with a faith in what they say, when I don't have to; I know enough about the life sciences to give a critical look at some of the conclusions drawn in life sciences. Despite your implication, I'm not just accepting the data, as presented; I've analyzed the data that I presented above before I posted it. Since chemistry is discussed, this time, I can easily defend this data.

@frozen said:

@willpayton: I advise you not to waste your time with Dshipp. His ''multiple Science degrees'' compared to his comments about Young Earth Creationism and seeing no evidence for Evolution indicate he is either a troll or simply deluded.

Your attacks on my professional credentials are baseless and make no sense; you're not referencing anything specific, except my presentations from creation scientists; what is your attack on creation scientists based upon? As far as I know, you certainly lack the ability to say one thing or the other about the scientific data being presented. You seem ignorant and want to stay ignorant, but don't influence other people with your foolish way of looking at things. Because of your lake of understanding of science, you can't discern what is evidence and what represent a postulate; the worse thing about it is that you see no need to get informed. If you believe there is something wrong with my prior post, than point it out; however, you'd be wise to heed my warning that the principles are chemistry related and I'm a chemist.

Avatar image for frozen
frozen

40401

Forum Posts

258

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 14

#50  Edited By frozen  Moderator

@dshipp17: You are ignorant. I say this not to personally attack you, or to insult you --- but an observation which indicates that you lack a basic understanding of Science and fact; you claim that you possess multiple Science degrees, but subsequently go on to link to creationist websites --- sites which attempt to justify the notion that The Earth is less than 10,000 years old. Anyone with a degree of common sense should know that The Earth is much older than this, let alone a person with ''multiple Science degrees''.

You are either trolling or simply very deluded. I for one, hope it is the former.