are you pro-life or pro-choice? (read OP)

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Poll are you pro-life or pro-choice? (read OP) (172 votes)

pro life 42%
pro choice 52%
don't care 6%

this is for a college essay, so forgive me if this has been done. i have to do either interviews or a survey, so this is my survey. Please explain f you could why you are pro-life or pro-choice.

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I'm pro-consciousness.

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Mr_Clockwork91

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#252  Edited By Mr_Clockwork91
@dum529001 said:
@mr_clockwork91 said:
@dum529001 said:

The baby becomes an individual when the male sperm containing the father's DNA and female egg containing the mother's DNA. The protein tissue that make up amino acids are just larger tools of survival for the human organism. Our bodies are constantly breaking down and building up so lacking a fully developed brain, muscle, and skeleton, and more numerous cells does not mean you aren't human/human enough.

The brain is just a tool to help you process information/energy readings more efficiently. If you give the DNA building materials it does something with it and tries to survive. I thnk that qualifies as alive and conscious since its taking care of itself.

Saying a person isn't human just because they have less cells and less protein development in each cell is like saying a starving man or an injured man is inhuman. That's basically social darwinism, killing someone just for being weak. Who wants to be be put to death just for weak? Anyone?

Everything begins and comes back to the DNA. Without it, you can't survive. It is the heart of the human machine.

So do plants have a consciousness since they try to survive? Do you eat meat? Why is it wrong to abort a fetus but ok to casually eat animals?

Just to be clear, I am pro choice but also pro life, it really depends on a case by case basis for me. But I believe that women should have the right to choose what they want to do with their bodies.

Thought experiment; Say you wake up on a bed connected to a series of medical tubes to an unconscious famous violinist. If you disconnect yourself now, the violinist will die. But if you wait for 9 months, the violinist will wake up, go on and play beautiful music and have a fulfilling life.

Now same scenario but instead of a violinist, the person you are connected to is a mass murderer. And if you wait 9 months, they will go on to continue killing dozens more.

The question is, are you within your rights to disconnect yourself from those tubes?

Are you saying you'd eat other humans???? Are you saying you'd eat your mother, father, siblings and friends?????

No, where the hell do you even draw that connection? Im arguing that people who are so pro life and not vegans are hypocrites by casually eating animals. because apparently animals don't have a right to life?!

I eat animals and plants and whatever else that gives me nourishment because I have allegiance the human race but not to others life forms. All living things don't hesitate to eat others living things for their own survival. Animals have some advantages over plants but both are life forms, structures spawned from DNA(the molecular machine whose workings make a living things so adaptable).

Appeal to nature fallacy, just because other animals do it, it must be ok for us to do it.

And since when could you tell a mass murder from a violinist at birth??

You can't, the scenario is analogous to rape.

The question is, do you want to be punished with death simply for being weak?

No one does, would you die if you could benefit thousands more to a more pleasant and stronger life?

The brain is like a calculator/supercomputer and the rest of the nervous system is simply a very complex sensory system but a life-form can still sense things and react without a nervous system and a brain, just not as efficiently.

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Mr_Clockwork91

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@jeepeh said:

Dum seems to be doing a fine job of soloing this thread, but I'll still reply.

Yes they are, and it should be their right to deal with however they want.

They AREN'T dealing with it. They're running from it at the expense of the Child. It's like saying your eyes are bad because you spray painted without protection and you need glasses, so the solution to the problem is to rip your eyes out. ~.~

Research that I did. From Psychology and Sociology classes I have taken. This isn't an issue that I just casually say prochoice.

Research that YOU did? You experimented on unborn babies personally? And how does taking a school class make you capable of talking about just how alive a baby is?

Well then don't insult me by saying that I just reiterated what some "doctor" wrote.

I don't think it's the same thing. It's very unlikely that you actually did research yourself. 90% of people or more probably take scientist's word for it.

skin cells do have the potential to be human beings given the right methodology.

Explain. Makes no sense to me. They have their own DNA, each cell does, but it's YOUR DNA, it's YOU. Not a combination of you and your partner that's SUPPOSED to grow.

Science can't label when a baby becomes it's own life? Perhaps, but then what can?

Irrelevant. Science can't, so science trying to claim their opinion to be true is weird.

IMO? The One who MADE us. But I know you won't take that as an answer.

You're not supposed to but foster homes can lose resources and space for kids. Or what if one of those kids grows up to be a mass murderer or a drug dealer?

Well normal families can lose resources too, and non-adopted kids can become mass murderers or a drug dealer too. I guess we should all just stop having kids completely?

They have to vote on a bill in order to keep the PUNISHMENT viable or some other form of PUNISHMENT to exact on the offender.

But the rule itself is still a rule, nothing about the rule itself was changed.

Ok, you just contradicted yourself, "The rules are still the rules, but the punishments are less severe." How can the rules still be the rules but have different punishments given that the punishment for sin is death?

Re-read the first verse. Mercy?

And the punishment is death, one sin makes you deserving to go to hell. But it's not man's place to pass judgement. "Let he that is without sin throw the first stone". No man is without sin, but God is. And God is merciful enough to give us many many many chances to repent.

What biblical rules?

You said "What biblical rules have influenced the birth of the country?"

1.What? Why would anyone spray paint their eyes?

2.No, It's called reading journals and reading opinions on websites(Both pro choice and prolife) also reading scientifically peer reviewed books from biologists, sociologists and psychologists.

3. 90% of people take their churches word for it.

4. A clone of you.

5. Yeah I would not take The One who made us as a answer because that implies you know for certainty of a god and his/her/ its mind.

6. Yes the rule has changed, this crime = this punishment, when they change the punishment they are changing the rule. This crime no longer = this punishment but now = this punishment. It's not a mans place to pass judgement, so then should we give up on any criminal process? I would say god is the biggest sinner of all.

7. Yes what biblical rules?

8. I don't even understand what the hell you are trying to argue anymore in relation to adoption. I'm advocating that we put emphasis on adoption. I'm saying that because the current state of poor conditions for orphanage's, the children have a greater chance to become juvenile delinquents, we need to highlight the problems within that area.

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@bumpyboo said:

@mr_clockwork91:

*nods* You.

I like you.

That's all, as you were :)

Thought I'd pop in and see how things were going and yup. What she said.

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BeaconofStrength

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Choice.

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Mr_Clockwork91

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@ms-lola said:
@bumpyboo said:

@mr_clockwork91:

*nods* You.

I like you.

That's all, as you were :)

Thought I'd pop in and see how things were going and yup. What she said.

No Caption Provided

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dum529001

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#257  Edited By dum529001

@mr_clockwork91 said:
@dum529001 said:
@mr_clockwork91 said:
@dum529001 said:

The baby becomes an individual when the male sperm containing the father's DNA and female egg containing the mother's DNA. The protein tissue that make up amino acids are just larger tools of survival for the human organism. Our bodies are constantly breaking down and building up so lacking a fully developed brain, muscle, and skeleton, and more numerous cells does not mean you aren't human/human enough.

The brain is just a tool to help you process information/energy readings more efficiently. If you give the DNA building materials it does something with it and tries to survive. I thnk that qualifies as alive and conscious since its taking care of itself.

Saying a person isn't human just because they have less cells and less protein development in each cell is like saying a starving man or an injured man is inhuman. That's basically social darwinism, killing someone just for being weak. Who wants to be be put to death just for weak? Anyone?

Everything begins and comes back to the DNA. Without it, you can't survive. It is the heart of the human machine.

So do plants have a consciousness since they try to survive? Do you eat meat? Why is it wrong to abort a fetus but ok to casually eat animals?

Just to be clear, I am pro choice but also pro life, it really depends on a case by case basis for me. But I believe that women should have the right to choose what they want to do with their bodies.

Thought experiment; Say you wake up on a bed connected to a series of medical tubes to an unconscious famous violinist. If you disconnect yourself now, the violinist will die. But if you wait for 9 months, the violinist will wake up, go on and play beautiful music and have a fulfilling life.

Now same scenario but instead of a violinist, the person you are connected to is a mass murderer. And if you wait 9 months, they will go on to continue killing dozens more.

The question is, are you within your rights to disconnect yourself from those tubes?

Are you saying you'd eat other humans???? Are you saying you'd eat your mother, father, siblings and friends?????

No, where the hell do you even draw that connection? Im arguing that people who are so pro life are hypocrites by casually eating animals. because apparently animals don't have a right to life?!

I eat animals and plants and whatever else that gives me nourishment because I have allegiance the human race but not to others life forms. All living things don't hesitate to eat others living things for their own survival. Animals have some advantages over plants but both are life forms, structures spawned from DNA(the molecular machine whose workings make a living things so adaptable).

Appeal to nature fallacy, just because other animals do it, it must be ok for us to do it.

And since when could you tell a mass murder from a violinist at birth??

You can't, the scenario is analogous to rape.

The question is, do you want to be punished with death simply for being weak?

No one does, would you die if you could benefit thousands more to a more pleasant and stronger life?

The brain is like a calculator/supercomputer and the rest of the nervous system is simply a very complex sensory system but a life-form can still sense things and react without a nervous system and a brain, just not as efficiently.

I did not "appeal" to nature. I was saying that nature is cruel because for one being to live another has to suffer or/and die. Secondly, I said that If I side with anyone, it will be the human race, those of my own kind. The only kindness I will show to other animals is leaving them in peace If don't need them for food or something very necessary.

And if you're trying to say babies who get aborted die for a good cause, then my answer to that statement would be "Don't put others up for a sacrifice you yourself would not make."

If you're not willing to make that sacrifice and die for any number of reasons people give for an abortion then you're a hypocrite for saying its all for a good cause.

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@mr_clockwork91:

1.What? Why would anyone spray paint their eyes?

.... Not what I meant. xD Like, when you're spray painting or working with any harmful chemical and they tell you about not getting it in your eyes or breathing the fumes. Nice try to dance around my point tho.

2.No, It's called reading journals and reading opinions on websites(Both pro choice and prolife) also reading scientifically peer reviewed books from biologists, sociologists and psychologists.

Okay so my original statement was correct.

3. 90% of people take their churches word for it.

Based on what? Idk about whoever you've been talking to, but I actually read my Bible.

4. A clone of you.

.... Wait what.

6. Yes the rule has changed, this crime = this punishment, when they change the punishment they are changing the rule. This crime no longer = this punishment but now = this punishment. It's not a mans place to pass judgement, so then should we give up on any criminal process? I would say god is the biggest sinner of all.

1. *sigh* But what was a rule is still a rule.

2. You know that's not what I'm saying.

3. How?

7. Yes what biblical rules?

Did you ignore what I said after that?

8. I don't even understand what the hell you are trying to argue anymore in relation to adoption. I'm advocating that we put emphasis on adoption. I'm saying that because the current state of poor conditions for orphanage's, the children have a greater chance to become juvenile delinquents, we need to highlight the problems within that area.

I said that if they don't want the kid, they should put it for adoption. You seemed to be saying that was a bad idea at the moment because they tend to become killers or something, I argue against that being a reasonable basis for abortion.

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#259  Edited By Mr_Clockwork91

@dum529001:Yes you did, you literally said, " All animals don't hesitate to eat other animals for their own survival." We don't need to eat animals to remain healthy in our lives. And yes I would die for many if it was for a good cause.

And another question, if miscarriages happen a lot, why are we not allowed to preform abortions?

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#260  Edited By Mr_Clockwork91

@jeepeh said:

@mr_clockwork91:

1.What? Why would anyone spray paint their eyes?

.... Not what I meant. xD Like, when you're spray painting or working with any harmful chemical and they tell you about not getting it in your eyes or breathing the fumes. Nice try to dance around my point tho.

2.No, It's called reading journals and reading opinions on websites(Both pro choice and prolife) also reading scientifically peer reviewed books from biologists, sociologists and psychologists.

Okay so my original statement was correct.

3. 90% of people take their churches word for it.

Based on what? Idk about whoever you've been talking to, but I actually read my Bible.

4. A clone of you.

.... Wait what.

6. Yes the rule has changed, this crime = this punishment, when they change the punishment they are changing the rule. This crime no longer = this punishment but now = this punishment. It's not a mans place to pass judgement, so then should we give up on any criminal process? I would say god is the biggest sinner of all.

1. *sigh* But what was a rule is still a rule.

2. You know that's not what I'm saying.

3. How?

7. Yes what biblical rules?

Did you ignore what I said after that?

8. I don't even understand what the hell you are trying to argue anymore in relation to adoption. I'm advocating that we put emphasis on adoption. I'm saying that because the current state of poor conditions for orphanage's, the children have a greater chance to become juvenile delinquents, we need to highlight the problems within that area.

I said that if they don't want the kid, they should put it for adoption. You seemed to be saying that was a bad idea at the moment because they tend to become killers or something, I argue against that being a reasonable basis for abortion.

1. Having sex isn't dangerous tho. So I've heard that aborted babies go to heaven, how could it possibly be "bad" for an abortion doctor to send children to Heaven? Standing before God and explaining his earthly actions, an abortion doctor could say: "Everybody I aborted is in Heaven, right? And of those I aborted, if I hadn't done so, some of them would be in Hell, right? So how, exactly, was it wrong for me to perform abortions?" How could God answer this doctor?

2. Ok, so how is that even an objection? Oh I do my homework so I must be wrong.

3. I was pointing out the irony in your post when you said "90% of people listen to what scientists say"

4. The skin cells given the right tools can be turned into a clone of you.

5. No I don't know what you are saying, if a man should not judge, then how can one convict anyone of anything?

6. Jeepeh: "You said "What biblical rules have influenced the birth of the country?" So was there something I'm not seeing?

7. I implied that putting it in adoption is not as great a choice as people make adoption up to be. Given that we know there is a huge correlation between juvenile delinquents, lack of education and orphanages, it's safe to say that putting up for adoption isnt always the best option.

8. Mind if we move the god stuff to the religion thread?

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dum529001

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#261  Edited By dum529001

@mr_clockwork91 said:

@dum529001: We don't need to eat animals to remain healthy in our lives. And yes I would.

Yeah, we do need other livings things to suffer and/or die in order to live.

So you'd die for any reason someone had to kill you for??? Stop lying.

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"I'm on the side of life." - Vision (The Avengers: Age of Ultron)

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Mr_Clockwork91

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#263  Edited By Mr_Clockwork91

@mr_clockwork91 said:

@dum529001: We don't need to eat animals to remain healthy in our lives. And yes I would.

Yeah, we do need other livings things to suffer and/or die in order to live.

So you'd die for any reason someone had to kill you for??? Stop lying.

No we don't, we can live healthy lives without eating meat.

And I said good reason, so stop with the misrepresentation.

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@dum529001 said:
@mr_clockwork91 said:

@dum529001: We don't need to eat animals to remain healthy in our lives. And yes I would.

Yeah, we do need other livings things to suffer and/or die in order to live.

So you'd die for any reason someone had to kill you for??? Stop lying.

No we don't, we can live healthy lives without eating meat.

And I said good reason, so stop with the misrepresentation.

And yet you failed to mentioned the multitude of people who are getting abortions for no GOOD reason. Could it be you were trying to imply all abortions are any kind of good??

By the way, you don't have to eat meat to cause the suffering and/or death of other livings things.

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#265  Edited By Cream_God

Coulda sworn this poll was closer

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Mr_Clockwork91

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@dum529001: Why people get abortions; lack of education about babies, lack of sexual education, lack of resources to adequately provide for a child which in turn causes the family to enter into poverty(Even more than likely if the father leaves).Which in turn if they do, you are now paying for by welfare. Sometimes it is unhealthy for the woman to carry a fetus to full term pregnancy and could result in health issues or even death. Aborted fetuses can provide to stem cell research which is making progress in treating people with heart disease, Parkinsons disease, burn victims, type 1 diabetes and even arthritis.

The world is currently IMO overpopulated and we only have a limited food supply, if we continue to populate and continue to over consume like all first world countries do, especially murica, we are systematically polluting our environment with enormous confined animal feeding operations that output large gaseous emissions and water pollution wastes.

The human race has killed it's kind for far more absurd things like religion or political ideologies for centuries, yet you are over here complaining about a clump of cells right to life?

The human female body has been doing abortions for thousands of years, now that they intentionally want an abortion for whatever reason, you want to put your foot down as if you have some right over them? Moral analysis over.

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makhai

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#267  Edited By makhai

@nick_hero22 said:
@mr_clockwork91 said:
@dum529001 said:

The baby becomes an individual when the male sperm containing the father's DNA and female egg containing the mother's DNA. The protein tissue that make up amino acids are just larger tools of survival for the human organism. Our bodies are constantly breaking down and building up so lacking a fully developed brain, muscle, and skeleton, and more numerous cells does not mean you aren't human/human enough.

The brain is just a tool to help you process information/energy readings more efficiently. If you give the DNA building materials it does something with it and tries to survive. I thnk that qualifies as alive and conscious since its taking care of itself.

Saying a person isn't human just because they have less cells and less protein development in each cell is like saying a starving man or an injured man is inhuman. That's basically social darwinism, killing someone just for being weak. Who wants to be be put to death just for weak? Anyone?

Everything begins and comes back to the DNA. Without it, you can't survive. It is the heart of the human machine.

So do plants have a consciousness since they try to survive? Do you eat meat? Why is it wrong to abort a fetus but ok to casually eat animals?

Just to be clear, I am pro choice but also pro life, it really depends on a case by case basis for me. But I believe that women should have the right to choose what they want to do with their bodies.

Thought experiment; Say you wake up on a bed connected to a series of medical tubes to an unconscious famous violinist. If you disconnect yourself now, the violinist will die. But if you wait for 9 months, the violinist will wake up, go on and play beautiful music and have a fulfilling life.

Now same scenario but instead of a violinist, the person you are connected to is a mass murderer. And if you wait 9 months, they will go on to continue killing dozens more.

The question is, are you within your rights to disconnect yourself from those tubes?

I don't see how this is really analogous because in the thought experiment you were connected to both the murder and violinist without consent on your part while sexual intercourse requires a conscious consent from both parties.

In my moral philosophy, If I knew that unconnecting myself from the tubes would kill either of them then I think it would be wrong to do so because I believe that the moral value of saving a life trumps my own self-interest depending on what my self-interest is. As far as what they do 9 months down the line should have no impact on my choice to stay connected because I'm not privy to the knowledge that the future holds.

By that logic, medical practitioners should be within their rights to withhold medical treatments from patients foolish enough to do things that would get them infected. Stepped on a nail? Well enjoy your tetanus because you should have known what can happen when stepping on rusty nails.

Or how about if you get bacterial meningitis caused by Neisseria meningitidis due to consensual physical contact with another person? You know that any contact with other people can open you up for potential pathological diseases? I suppose that since you are a morally superior being that believes that everyone is responsible for their own actions and should suffer whatever consequences, we should just let you and everyone that becomes ill die? Because odds are, you are the cause of your own ailments.

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dum529001

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#268  Edited By dum529001

@mr_clockwork91 said:

@dum529001: Why people get abortions; lack of education about babies, lack of sexual education, lack of resources to adequately provide for a child which in turn causes the family to enter into poverty(Even more than likely if the father leaves).Which in turn if they do, you are now paying for by welfare. Sometimes it is unhealthy for the woman to carry a fetus to full term pregnancy and could result in health issues or even death. Aborted fetuses can provide to stem cell research which is making progress in treating people with heart disease, Parkinsons disease, burn victims, type 1 diabetes and even arthritis.

The world is currently IMO overpopulated and we only have a limited food supply, if we continue to populate and continue to over consume like all first world countries do, especially murica, we are systematically polluting our environment with enormous confined animal feeding operations that output large gaseous emissions and water pollution wastes.

The human race has killed it's kind for far more absurd things like religion or political ideologies for centuries, yet you are over here complaining about a clump of cells right to life?

The human female body has been doing abortions for thousands of years, now that they intentionally want an abortion for whatever reason, you want to put your foot down as if you have some right over them? Moral analysis over.

Everyone is a clump of cells. Cells are clumps of molecular combinations. Some people just happen to have been given a chance to develop those lipids and proteins within their cells more as well as multiply them to a greater number due to the fact that someone was nice enough to give them that chance instead of killing them.

I don't care what people have been doing for thousands of years if what they were doing is not right.

Unless you want someone killing you while you are weak because you are in the way of any number of things they want, because they feel they can get away with killing one who is weak and defenseless in comparison, you are a hypocrite.

Again, lets not pretend every reason people have for getting an abortion and what they do with their lives once they get an abortion is greatest piece of goodness you could think of.

If you love abortion so much then you should be willing to die with the children who go through it. The truth is that you are okay with abortion as long as its not being done to you. You have no objections to it because you are no longer a baby that it could happen to.

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Pro-Choice

Pro-Death Penalty

Pro-Euthanasia

anything death related is fine with me, its all equal

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Mr_Clockwork91

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@mr_clockwork91 said:

@dum529001: Why people get abortions; lack of education about babies, lack of sexual education, lack of resources to adequately provide for a child which in turn causes the family to enter into poverty(Even more than likely if the father leaves).Which in turn if they do, you are now paying for by welfare. Sometimes it is unhealthy for the woman to carry a fetus to full term pregnancy and could result in health issues or even death. Aborted fetuses can provide to stem cell research which is making progress in treating people with heart disease, Parkinsons disease, burn victims, type 1 diabetes and even arthritis.

The world is currently IMO overpopulated and we only have a limited food supply, if we continue to populate and continue to over consume like all first world countries do, especially murica, we are systematically polluting our environment with enormous confined animal feeding operations that output large gaseous emissions and water pollution wastes.

The human race has killed it's kind for far more absurd things like religion or political ideologies for centuries, yet you are over here complaining about a clump of cells right to life?

The human female body has been doing abortions for thousands of years, now that they intentionally want an abortion for whatever reason, you want to put your foot down as if you have some right over them? Moral analysis over.

Everyone is a clump of cells. Cells are clumps of molecular combinations. Some people just happen to have been given a chance to develop those lipids and proteins within their cells more as well as multiply them to a greater number due to the fact that someone was nice enough to give them that chance instead of killing them.

I don't care what people have been doing for thousands of years if what they were doing is not right.

Unless you want someone killing you while you are weak because you are in the way of any number of things they want, because they feel they can get away with killing one who is weak and defenseless in comparison, you are a hypocrite.

Again, lets not pretend every reason people have for getting an abortion and what they do with their lives once they get an abortion is greatest piece of goodness you could think of.

If you love abortion so much then you should be willing to die with the children who go through it. The truth is that you are okay with abortion as long as its not being done to you. You have no objections to it because you are no longer a baby that it could happen to.

No, I am a multicelluar eukaroyate that has a consciousness and a brain and vital organs. Something a embryo does not have. By your logic, I guess condoms and other forms of contraceptives are killing machines too.

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

Killing me because I am weak? what the hell are you even trying to talk about?

Keywords: Their lives. You just answered your own damn opposition.

Children don't go through abortion, they go through being birthed.

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@mr_clockwork91 said:
@dum529001 said:

The baby becomes an individual when the male sperm containing the father's DNA and female egg containing the mother's DNA. The protein tissue that make up amino acids are just larger tools of survival for the human organism. Our bodies are constantly breaking down and building up so lacking a fully developed brain, muscle, and skeleton, and more numerous cells does not mean you aren't human/human enough.

The brain is just a tool to help you process information/energy readings more efficiently. If you give the DNA building materials it does something with it and tries to survive. I thnk that qualifies as alive and conscious since its taking care of itself.

Saying a person isn't human just because they have less cells and less protein development in each cell is like saying a starving man or an injured man is inhuman. That's basically social darwinism, killing someone just for being weak. Who wants to be be put to death just for weak? Anyone?

Everything begins and comes back to the DNA. Without it, you can't survive. It is the heart of the human machine.

So do plants have a consciousness since they try to survive? Do you eat meat? Why is it wrong to abort a fetus but ok to casually eat animals?

Just to be clear, I am pro choice but also pro life, it really depends on a case by case basis for me. But I believe that women should have the right to choose what they want to do with their bodies.

Thought experiment; Say you wake up on a bed connected to a series of medical tubes to an unconscious famous violinist. If you disconnect yourself now, the violinist will die. But if you wait for 9 months, the violinist will wake up, go on and play beautiful music and have a fulfilling life.

Now same scenario but instead of a violinist, the person you are connected to is a mass murderer. And if you wait 9 months, they will go on to continue killing dozens more.

The question is, are you within your rights to disconnect yourself from those tubes?

I don't see how this is really analogous because in the thought experiment you were connected to both the murder and violinist without consent on your part while sexual intercourse requires a conscious consent from both parties.

In my moral philosophy, If I knew that unconnecting myself from the tubes would kill either of them then I think it would be wrong to do so because I believe that the moral value of saving a life trumps my own self-interest depending on what my self-interest is. As far as what they do 9 months down the line should have no impact on my choice to stay connected because I'm not privy to the knowledge that the future holds.

What if not unconnecting the tubes would result in your own death?

Better yet, if moral value of saving a life triumphs self interest, how do you rationalize if you are the best damn surgeon and your skills are unparalleled yet you are pregnant and having the baby could very well result in your death because of an underdeveloped womb. Knowing this does the self interest of self preservation not triumph the potential fetus?

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dum529001

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#272  Edited By dum529001

@mr_clockwork91 said:
@dum529001 said:
@mr_clockwork91 said:

@dum529001: Why people get abortions; lack of education about babies, lack of sexual education, lack of resources to adequately provide for a child which in turn causes the family to enter into poverty(Even more than likely if the father leaves).Which in turn if they do, you are now paying for by welfare. Sometimes it is unhealthy for the woman to carry a fetus to full term pregnancy and could result in health issues or even death. Aborted fetuses can provide to stem cell research which is making progress in treating people with heart disease, Parkinsons disease, burn victims, type 1 diabetes and even arthritis.

The world is currently IMO overpopulated and we only have a limited food supply, if we continue to populate and continue to over consume like all first world countries do, especially murica, we are systematically polluting our environment with enormous confined animal feeding operations that output large gaseous emissions and water pollution wastes.

The human race has killed it's kind for far more absurd things like religion or political ideologies for centuries, yet you are over here complaining about a clump of cells right to life?

The human female body has been doing abortions for thousands of years, now that they intentionally want an abortion for whatever reason, you want to put your foot down as if you have some right over them? Moral analysis over.

Everyone is a clump of cells. Cells are clumps of molecular combinations. Some people just happen to have been given a chance to develop those lipids and proteins within their cells more as well as multiply them to a greater number due to the fact that someone was nice enough to give them that chance instead of killing them.

I don't care what people have been doing for thousands of years if what they were doing is not right.

Unless you want someone killing you while you are weak because you are in the way of any number of things they want, because they feel they can get away with killing one who is weak and defenseless in comparison, you are a hypocrite.

Again, lets not pretend every reason people have for getting an abortion and what they do with their lives once they get an abortion is greatest piece of goodness you could think of.

If you love abortion so much then you should be willing to die with the children who go through it. The truth is that you are okay with abortion as long as its not being done to you. You have no objections to it because you are no longer a baby that it could happen to.

No, I am a multicelluar eukaroyate that has a consciousness and a brain and vital organs. Something a embryo does not have. By your logic, I guess condoms and other forms of contraceptives are killing machines too.

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

Killing me because I am weak? what the hell are you even trying to talk about?

Keywords: Their lives. You just answered your own damn opposition.

Children don't go through abortion, they go through being birthed.

All humans are multicellular but we have to be given a chance to build up all those cells and the protein structure within it, and then we have to continually build ourselves back up , little by little.

You're defining all awareness by having a brain which is not 100 percent accurate at all.

Babies are weak due to the fact that they are underdeveloped and you say its okay to kill them for it.

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Mr_Clockwork91

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@dum529001: Yeah if I get cancer, I'll be sure to do that.

I never said awareness is by having a brain, I said consciousness.

Nope, I said embryos, embryos are not babies.

If a two year old needs an organ transplant from the mother, is the mom legally forced to give it to the two year old? Because if the two year old does not have the right to use its mother's body, then why should the embryo have more rights than the two year old?

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dum529001

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#274  Edited By dum529001

@mr_clockwork91 said:

@dum529001: Yeah if I get cancer, I'll be sure to do that.

I never said awareness is by having a brain, I said consciousness.

Nope, I said embryos, embryos are not babies.

If a two year old needs an organ transplant from the mother, is the mom legally forced to give it to the two year old? Because if the two year old does not have the right to use its mother's body, then why should the embryo have more rights than the two year old?

All you're saying is that you don't care since you're not in the baby's position anymore.

By the way, since you feel the baby is just a moocher/parasite for needing help like all humans do, then you should go your whole life never receiving or asking for any kind of help whatsoever, which is an impossibility.

An embryo is just a small underdeveloped human. Are you denying that? If so, whenever you find yourself physically lacking then you are not allowed human rights. Sound good? Okay.

Consciousness is awareness. Consciousness(definition): The awareness or perception of something by a person..

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Jeepeh

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@jeepeh said:

@mr_clockwork91:

1.What? Why would anyone spray paint their eyes?

.... Not what I meant. xD Like, when you're spray painting or working with any harmful chemical and they tell you about not getting it in your eyes or breathing the fumes. Nice try to dance around my point tho.

2.No, It's called reading journals and reading opinions on websites(Both pro choice and prolife) also reading scientifically peer reviewed books from biologists, sociologists and psychologists.

Okay so my original statement was correct.

3. 90% of people take their churches word for it.

Based on what? Idk about whoever you've been talking to, but I actually read my Bible.

4. A clone of you.

.... Wait what.

6. Yes the rule has changed, this crime = this punishment, when they change the punishment they are changing the rule. This crime no longer = this punishment but now = this punishment. It's not a mans place to pass judgement, so then should we give up on any criminal process? I would say god is the biggest sinner of all.

1. *sigh* But what was a rule is still a rule.

2. You know that's not what I'm saying.

3. How?

7. Yes what biblical rules?

Did you ignore what I said after that?

8. I don't even understand what the hell you are trying to argue anymore in relation to adoption. I'm advocating that we put emphasis on adoption. I'm saying that because the current state of poor conditions for orphanage's, the children have a greater chance to become juvenile delinquents, we need to highlight the problems within that area.

I said that if they don't want the kid, they should put it for adoption. You seemed to be saying that was a bad idea at the moment because they tend to become killers or something, I argue against that being a reasonable basis for abortion.

1. Having sex isn't dangerous tho. So I've heard that aborted babies go to heaven, how could it possibly be "bad" for an abortion doctor to send children to Heaven? Standing before God and explaining his earthly actions, an abortion doctor could say: "Everybody I aborted is in Heaven, right? And of those I aborted, if I hadn't done so, some of them would be in Hell, right? So how, exactly, was it wrong for me to perform abortions?" How could God answer this doctor?

2. Ok, so how is that even an objection? Oh I do my homework so I must be wrong.

3. I was pointing out the irony in your post when you said "90% of people listen to what scientists say"

4. The skin cells given the right tools can be turned into a clone of you.

5. No I don't know what you are saying, if a man should not judge, then how can one convict anyone of anything?

6. Jeepeh: "You said "What biblical rules have influenced the birth of the country?" So was there something I'm not seeing?

7. I implied that putting it in adoption is not as great a choice as people make adoption up to be. Given that we know there is a huge correlation between juvenile delinquents, lack of education and orphanages, it's safe to say that putting up for adoption isnt always the best option.

8. Mind if we move the god stuff to the religion thread?

Having sex isn't dangerous tho.

If you don't want kids, it kinda is. Painting in of itself isn't supposed to be dangerous.

So I've heard that aborted babies go to heaven, how could it possibly be "bad" for an abortion doctor to send children to Heaven? Standing before God and explaining his earthly actions, an abortion doctor could say: "Everybody I aborted is in Heaven, right? And of those I aborted, if I hadn't done so, some of them would be in Hell, right? So how, exactly, was it wrong for me to perform abortions?" How could God answer this doctor?

No Caption Provided

The fact that they went to Heaven is only one side of it and ignoring the rest. Maybe that baby was going to end up going to Heaven anyway, and along it's life they'd have started a missionary team and brought hundreds or thousands of others to Heaven, including some of the other aborted children. The end? Yeah, it doesn't justify the means. Sorry.

Good try tho.

2. Ok, so how is that even an objection? Oh I do my homework so I must be wrong.

You're taking someone's word for it, and that person can't possibly know themselves, yet you still see it as 100% fact that they're not conscious, and aren't technically humans. I'm hearing it from the One who made us, I think He's the best one to ask?

3. I was pointing out the irony in your post when you said "90% of people listen to what scientists say"

And I pointed out the huge difference in circumstances. Anyone can read the Bible, very very very few actually do testing on abortions.

4. The skin cells given the right tools can be turned into a clone of you.

But it doesn't. Some pieces of flowers can become new flowers, but it's still not a seed, it's not a new plant.

5. No I don't know what you are saying, if a man should not judge, then how can one convict anyone of anything?

It's saying that I shouldn't look at my cousin and judge him for something that he's doing, "remove the beam from your own eye before removing the needle from someone else's" (paraphrasing). The government is the one responsible for judging criminals. Do you see the difference?

6. Jeepeh: "You said "What biblical rules have influenced the birth of the country?" So was there something I'm not seeing?

You asked that, then I said "Biblical rules? Didn't you just say that they weren't Biblical Christians?" then you said "Yeah, what Biblical rules"

7. I implied that putting it in adoption is not as great a choice as people make adoption up to be. Given that we know there is a huge correlation between juvenile delinquents, lack of education and orphanages, it's safe to say that putting up for adoption isnt always the best option.

Based on what though? Kids have chances of becoming delinquents and lacking proper education even with Biological parents, at least in adoption they have a chance. Find a kid who was adopted by loving people and ask him if he'd have rather been aborted. ~_~

8. Mind if we move the god stuff to the religion thread?

Why?

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Mortein

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I'm pro-death and anti-choice!

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Mortein

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Yes, except in late pregnancies. But I think 'late' should be based on studies of babies' consciousness.

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Mr_Clockwork91

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#279  Edited By Mr_Clockwork91

@mr_clockwork91 said:

@dum529001: Yeah if I get cancer, I'll be sure to do that.

I never said awareness is by having a brain, I said consciousness.

Nope, I said embryos, embryos are not babies.

If a two year old needs an organ transplant from the mother, is the mom legally forced to give it to the two year old? Because if the two year old does not have the right to use its mother's body, then why should the embryo have more rights than the two year old?

All you're saying is that you don't care since you're not in the baby's position anymore.

By the way, since you feel the baby is just a moocher/parasite for needing help like all humans do, then you should go your whole life never receiving or asking for any kind of help whatsoever, which is an impossibility.

An embryo is just a small underdeveloped human. Are you denying that? If so, whenever you find yourself physically lacking then you are not allowed human rights. Sound good? Okay.

Consciousness is awareness. Consciousness(definition): The awareness or perception of something by a person..

If I were in the fetuses' position, it wouldn't matter. I have no knowledge about anything let alone what I am.

When did I ever say that babies are moochers or parasites?

I like how you are arguing about human rights but fail to acknowledge the woman's at all. lol

Ok if you want to go down that road, if consciousness is awareness; can plants or animals make moral decisions? Can an animal or plant choose not to eat when they are hungry?

If you are going to keep strawmanning my arguments and keep misrepresenting my points, then I have no interest in talking with you.

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Mr_Clockwork91

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#280  Edited By Mr_Clockwork91

@jeepeh said:
@mr_clockwork91 said:
@jeepeh said:

@mr_clockwork91:

1.What? Why would anyone spray paint their eyes?

.... Not what I meant. xD Like, when you're spray painting or working with any harmful chemical and they tell you about not getting it in your eyes or breathing the fumes. Nice try to dance around my point tho.

2.No, It's called reading journals and reading opinions on websites(Both pro choice and prolife) also reading scientifically peer reviewed books from biologists, sociologists and psychologists.

Okay so my original statement was correct.

3. 90% of people take their churches word for it.

Based on what? Idk about whoever you've been talking to, but I actually read my Bible.

4. A clone of you.

.... Wait what.

6. Yes the rule has changed, this crime = this punishment, when they change the punishment they are changing the rule. This crime no longer = this punishment but now = this punishment. It's not a mans place to pass judgement, so then should we give up on any criminal process? I would say god is the biggest sinner of all.

1. *sigh* But what was a rule is still a rule.

2. You know that's not what I'm saying.

3. How?

7. Yes what biblical rules?

Did you ignore what I said after that?

8. I don't even understand what the hell you are trying to argue anymore in relation to adoption. I'm advocating that we put emphasis on adoption. I'm saying that because the current state of poor conditions for orphanage's, the children have a greater chance to become juvenile delinquents, we need to highlight the problems within that area.

I said that if they don't want the kid, they should put it for adoption. You seemed to be saying that was a bad idea at the moment because they tend to become killers or something, I argue against that being a reasonable basis for abortion.

1. Having sex isn't dangerous tho. So I've heard that aborted babies go to heaven, how could it possibly be "bad" for an abortion doctor to send children to Heaven? Standing before God and explaining his earthly actions, an abortion doctor could say: "Everybody I aborted is in Heaven, right? And of those I aborted, if I hadn't done so, some of them would be in Hell, right? So how, exactly, was it wrong for me to perform abortions?" How could God answer this doctor?

2. Ok, so how is that even an objection? Oh I do my homework so I must be wrong.

3. I was pointing out the irony in your post when you said "90% of people listen to what scientists say"

4. The skin cells given the right tools can be turned into a clone of you.

5. No I don't know what you are saying, if a man should not judge, then how can one convict anyone of anything?

6. Jeepeh: "You said "What biblical rules have influenced the birth of the country?" So was there something I'm not seeing?

7. I implied that putting it in adoption is not as great a choice as people make adoption up to be. Given that we know there is a huge correlation between juvenile delinquents, lack of education and orphanages, it's safe to say that putting up for adoption isnt always the best option.

8. Mind if we move the god stuff to the religion thread?

Having sex isn't dangerous tho.

If you don't want kids, it kinda is. Painting in of itself isn't supposed to be dangerous.

So I've heard that aborted babies go to heaven, how could it possibly be "bad" for an abortion doctor to send children to Heaven? Standing before God and explaining his earthly actions, an abortion doctor could say: "Everybody I aborted is in Heaven, right? And of those I aborted, if I hadn't done so, some of them would be in Hell, right? So how, exactly, was it wrong for me to perform abortions?" How could God answer this doctor?

No Caption Provided

The fact that they went to Heaven is only one side of it and ignoring the rest. Maybe that baby was going to end up going to Heaven anyway, and along it's life they'd have started a missionary team and brought hundreds or thousands of others to Heaven, including some of the other aborted children. The end? Yeah, it doesn't justify the means. Sorry.

Good try tho.

2. Ok, so how is that even an objection? Oh I do my homework so I must be wrong.

You're taking someone's word for it, and that person can't possibly know themselves, yet you still see it as 100% fact that they're not conscious, and aren't technically humans. I'm hearing it from the One who made us, I think He's the best one to ask?

3. I was pointing out the irony in your post when you said "90% of people listen to what scientists say"

And I pointed out the huge difference in circumstances. Anyone can read the Bible, very very very few actually do testing on abortions.

4. The skin cells given the right tools can be turned into a clone of you.

But it doesn't. Some pieces of flowers can become new flowers, but it's still not a seed, it's not a new plant.

5. No I don't know what you are saying, if a man should not judge, then how can one convict anyone of anything?

It's saying that I shouldn't look at my cousin and judge him for something that he's doing, "remove the beam from your own eye before removing the needle from someone else's" (paraphrasing). The government is the one responsible for judging criminals. Do you see the difference?

6. Jeepeh: "You said "What biblical rules have influenced the birth of the country?" So was there something I'm not seeing?

You asked that, then I said "Biblical rules? Didn't you just say that they weren't Biblical Christians?" then you said "Yeah, what Biblical rules"

7. I implied that putting it in adoption is not as great a choice as people make adoption up to be. Given that we know there is a huge correlation between juvenile delinquents, lack of education and orphanages, it's safe to say that putting up for adoption isnt always the best option.

Based on what though? Kids have chances of becoming delinquents and lacking proper education even with Biological parents, at least in adoption they have a chance. Find a kid who was adopted by loving people and ask him if he'd have rather been aborted. ~_~

8. Mind if we move the god stuff to the religion thread?

Why?

So having kids is dangerous? Plus, there are other forms of sex.

Oh the end don't justify the means? Oh excuse me while I wipe out the entire planet except for one family and repopulate the world incestuously....Or that kid could have been another false idol and lead millions to hell for believing in a false god...

I don't see it as 100% fact, I take the many scholarly articles that have been peer reviewed to say that brain activity does not start till 12 weeks after gestation word over someone who listens to voices in their head. A person should make their beliefs proportionate to the evidence.

Yet not many christian's actually read the bible. Very very very few? Please tell the number of scientists that do studies?

What? you just said pieces of flowers can become new flowers but are not new plants?!

No I don't see the difference, the government (surprise) is made up of people. The judge is allowed to judge people, why should he be allowed to when Jesus said we can't?

Uh I'm so lost, if you can't give me any thing that shows the US was founded on Christian values, I will take that you concede that point.

Based on longitude studies, arrest records, cross sectional studies, cohort studies. Of course they have those chances of becoming delinquents but likelihood is extremely less.

Why to send a loaded question my way, how about you find a person who never met there biological parents and was never adopted and ask them the same question?

And to avoid large walls of text!

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nick_hero22

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@mr_clockwork91: You don't see the disanalogy between eating meat because that is the only way to properly sustain our bodies and choosing to abort because a kid wouldn't fit with the plans we have for ourselves?

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Mr_Clockwork91

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@nick_hero22: We do not actually need to eat meat in order to properly sustain ourselves. And what are you referring to?

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nick_hero22

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@mr_clockwork91: We evolved to be omnivores, so meat is a very important part of our diet. I'm talking about the claim that eating meat is hypocritical.

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Jeepeh

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#284  Edited By Jeepeh

@mr_clockwork91:

So having kids is dangerous?

Well if they didn't want kids it's not a good thing. If you wanted your eyes using pepper spray on yourself is a bad thing. Though it probably won't cause permanent damage.

Plus, there are other forms of sex.

You're bringing this up again? Why?

Oh the end don't justify the means? Oh excuse me while I wipe out the entire planet except for one family and repopulate the world incestuously...

Sorry, that doesn't work. The world was nothing but evil at that point in time, it was justice to kill the majority of the human race, because all of them were evil, probably more evil than we can properly conceive.

Or that kid could have been another false idol and lead millions to hell for believing in a false god...

That's the kid's decision. Not the doctor's.

I don't see it as 100% fact, I take the many scholarly articles that have been peer reviewed to say that brain activity does not start till 12 weeks after gestation

Right, because science is ALWAYS correct. How long did we believe the earth was flat again? Oh wait, there are still people that think that. o_O

over someone who listens to voices in their head.

????????????

A person should make their beliefs proportionate to the evidence.

The Bible isn't enough evidence? Prettttttyyyy suuuuure the Bible has called things long before science did. ex: "The life of the flesh is in the blood". During George Washington's life, Abraham Lincoln, ect, they would LET people bleed to get the "bad blood" out of their bodies. Called, in the Bible, long before "modern science" knew it. That's only one example.

Your reply to this will be: "That just means the scholars made a connection back then and failed to pass it on!"

Yet not many christian's actually read the bible.

Huh? Based on what?

Very very very few? Please tell the number of scientists that do studies?

I wasn't thinking really of the number of scientists, but the ratio of how many scientists there are compared to how many people there are in general. It's quite the low ratio I'd imagine. And not all of the scientists believe what you're saying.

What? you just said pieces of flowers can become new flowers but are not new plants?!

They aren't "new" plants, they're the exact same plant split into two. The same way a clone of me wouldn't really be a NEW person, it'd just be another me. Whereas a NEW person is a combination of two previous people.

Am I right?

No I don't see the difference, the government (surprise) is made up of people. The judge is allowed to judge people,

That would be his job.

why should he be allowed to when Jesus said we can't?

Because the judge's job is to judge. The point of the verse imo was to say that we shouldn't be judgmental or condescending to our peers for something they do that we perceive as wrong.

Matthew 7:3“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

Uh I'm so lost, if you can't give me any thing that shows the US was founded on Christian values, I will take that you concede that point.

My argument stopped being specific to Christians after your statement about them being deists, if you recall I said something along the lines of "Regardless of what religion they were, it would've played a part in the rules they made."

Based on longitude studies, arrest records, cross sectional studies, cohort studies. Of course they have those chances of becoming delinquents but likelihood is extremely less.

I have a better chance of drowning if I have a pool, I guess we should ban pools?

Why to send a loaded question my way, how about you find a person who never met there biological parents

Isn't that kind of normal for an adopted child? At least for a certain amount of time.

and was never adopted and ask them the same question?

I still bet some, maybe even most of them would be happy that they were alive.

And to avoid large walls of text!

This thread has 6 pages, and it's not really off-topic. I don't think it'll bother anyone, I don't think most would even read this far into the thread.

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BoutaTakeAnL

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Pro-choice has absolutely no logical or moral backing. Every single argument for pro-choice can EASILY be refuted. The assumption that pro-life arises from religion are just fallacious. It's logic. Counter-arguments are encouraged (in a civilized manner, that is)

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TheSpartanB345T

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^very disengenuous to assume the other side has no logical or moral backing... Obviously any opposing side has SOME merit to it or it wouldn't be so controversial

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Dangannopoopoo

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To be honest I can see where both sides come from, but I lean a little bit more to pro choice

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Lunacyde

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#288 Lunacyde  Moderator

I personally believe abortion is wrong, but I don't believe it is my place to impose my personal beliefs upon women.

Therefore, I believe abortion should be legal and accessible for women, particularly in the cases of rape, incest, or life of the mother, up to the point of viability. After that I don't have any issue with having legal limitations imposed.

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SpareHeadOne

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I'm pro choice but not pro death

I think pro life protesters must be made to look after the children that are born to parents who don't want them

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Kinginrags

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Well, I'm not a child killer so......... I guess I'm pro life.

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CocaColaMan

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Pro Life. By far.

I’m not going to go so far as to say everyone who gets an abortion is evil, especially when you’re choosing between your life and the baby’s, but the act of it is not right in any way, shape, or form.

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KillBilly

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Pro-choice up to a certain point.

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StormKing1221

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Pro-choice and no argument I've read/heard thus far for the latter has come close to convincing me otherwise.

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El_mago

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pro choice is the only option for me

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FireStarLord73194

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Personally I think it’s wrong, a life is a life regardless of whether it’s been born yet

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OrdinaryAlan

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Personally, I'm pro-life.

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TheInsufferable

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I think phrasing them as "pro-life" and "pro-choice" is in itself somewhat problematic.

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OrangeVegeta

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I'm pro choice. Who am I to decide what another person does with their body?

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OrdinaryAlan

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#299  Edited By OrdinaryAlan

@orangevegeta said:

I'm pro choice. Who am I to decide what another person does with their body?

Funny, that's exactly the reason I'm pro-life. Who am I to decide the fate of an unborn child?

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ArranVid

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I would say I'm Pro-Life (except in circumstances where the mum's life is at risk)