Any Maltheists Here?

  • 54 results
  • 1
  • 2
Avatar image for azraelotaku
azraelotaku

1275

Forum Posts

155

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 27

A maltheist is a belief that God is evil. I'm a maltheist. I believe God is evil.

God is evil. God is responsible both directly and indirectly for all suffering, and pain. God is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omnipresent. He already knows what is going to happen, and is the cause of it. Humans, demons, and angels have no free will. God manipulates people's free will, and choices like he did with Pharaoh.

God isn't a good God.

Avatar image for maulsmacker
MaulSmacker

7518

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

.....Ok

Avatar image for lightordark
LightorDark

4734

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

I guess it depends on which god you’re talking about, but it’s pretty evident that any omnipotent god who allows endless pain and suffering in the world with the promise of a better second life is pretty bad.

Avatar image for platinumchalice
PlatinumChalice

2666

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#4  Edited By PlatinumChalice

there's no satisfaction in utopia. life's meant to have a challenge, meaning and purpose

Avatar image for azraelotaku
azraelotaku

1275

Forum Posts

155

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 27

@platinumchalice:

there's no satisfaction in utopia. life's meant to have a challenge, meaning and purpose

Isn't heaven a Utopia? Why would you want to go to heaven then? In Heaven there is no challenge, meaning, and purpose.

Avatar image for azraelotaku
azraelotaku

1275

Forum Posts

155

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 27

Loading Video...
Loading Video...

Avatar image for deactivated-64969837cbeff
deactivated-64969837cbeff

7326

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

I have nothing good to say here, so I'll just leave it at that.

Avatar image for jacdec
jacdec

5012

Forum Posts

483281

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 9

I am not a maltheist. If I believed in God, I would find it hard to believe that he is good. The Christian message tells us profusely that God is love, but I see no proof of love in God. I have seen him much more often condemn than forgive. The character of Christ is different, he condemns no one and forgives easily. The Son is not like Dad. This makes the whole thing quite incoherent.

Avatar image for djmasta
DjMasta

346

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@jacdec: to condemn someone is not necessarily evil. In the end, it was the Father who sent his son to save humanity. It was the Father who wrote the Mosaic Law ( teaches how to live) and it was the Father who introduced holiness, A concept opposite of evil.

God is not evil, the problem is humanity is corrupt and do not understand dinivity.

Avatar image for djmasta
DjMasta

346

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#10  Edited By DjMasta

@azraelotaku: Phaorah worship aliens and viewed himself a God and treated Hebrews like trash and looked down on them and their God. So God hardened Pharoah heart to show the Egyptians and The Hebrews who the real God is, since most didn’t believe. Where is the evil? Pharoah wanted to kill Israel, but God saved them.

Also, ppl disobey God all the time. Free will is definitely something everyone has.

Avatar image for jacdec
jacdec

5012

Forum Posts

483281

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 9

@djmasta said:

@jacdec:

God is not evil.

I never said God was evil. I am simply saying that I have difficulty believing in its existence.

Avatar image for djmasta
DjMasta

346

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@jacdec: The context of your post make it seem that way. Fair enough

Avatar image for sundown89
Sundown89

1971

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@djmasta: I’m pretty sure by ‘aliens’ you mean the Ancient Egyptian Pantheon (Ra, Isis, Sekhmet, Toth etc). Deification of leaders or notable figures is not uncommon, even in Christianity so it’s not that strange.

Taking into account that we have no archeological records or written records of either the plagues or a mass exodus of people out of Egypt, I’m pretty sure this didn’t happen at all. In fact I’d be wary about taking Exodus as truth as there are some very nasty conatations in that piece of scripture.

Avatar image for just_sayin
just_sayin

6128

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

A maltheist is a belief that God is evil. I'm a maltheist. I believe God is evil.

God is evil. God is responsible both directly and indirectly for all suffering, and pain. God is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omnipresent. He already knows what is going to happen, and is the cause of it. Humans, demons, and angels have no free will. God manipulates people's free will, and choices like he did with Pharaoh.

God isn't a good God.

Are you a maltheist in the Lovecraft tradition?

Do you really believe that you have no free will? Everything I see seems to contradict this. I believe in love, and for love to truly exist, free will must also. Forced or coerced love isn't true love. True love is a choice. I believe the relationships I have are based on love, not compulsion. For me it seems if I believed that no one had any free will, then it would be wrong to punish anyone for a crime they did. Punishment assumes the person had a choice in the matter. Also it would follow that it is wrong to reward someone for their effort or merit, since they had no choice but to do it. The world very much seems to operate on the notion of free will.

I believe God created space-time - therefore He must exist outside of it and is therefore space-less, timeless, eternal, and powerful enough to create our universe. Since God is timeless, He is before, during, and after time, so he would know all. However it doesn't follow that one's foreknowledge of events, causes the events to occur. Knowing the future, need not cause the future. If knowing the future, causes the future, then wouldn't God also have no free choice? Seems illogical to me.

I don't believe that God created evil. Evil isn't a tangible substance (well except in the 80's Time Bandits movie). Instead, evil is a privation of good. It is the absence of something, much like darkness is not a substance, but the absence of light. If there is no free will, then there is no "evil". There may be things that you would not prefer, but there is no malice, because there is no choice. Things just happen because of how the universe is then. It would be wrong to call something "evil" when it is behaving as it has to, for it couldn't do otherwise. So I don't understand how someone can believe in "evil" but not "free will".

Avatar image for king_saturn
King_Saturn

249357

Forum Posts

509

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#15 King_Saturn  Online

Nah, I am not a Maltheist. I do think God does do Evil at times and he does Good also. The nature of how he does these things is what is Interesting. There is usually something that happens that prompts God to do Evil in terms of the Human Condition. Where it gets more interesting though would be to lets say if God guided the process of Evolution because we know Evolution of Lifeforms has a lot of killing off of different Lifeforms over a long period of time on this Planet. Now why would God do that if He be fully Good ? Why not create that which you desire and that be the Lifeform that stands on the Earth instead of Selection Process which causes other variations life to perish and several lifeforms at that. Assuming God and Evolution are going hand and hand of course.

Avatar image for djmasta
DjMasta

346

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@sundown89:

The Exodus happened Eons ago much of Egypt’s history is lost but there is a common consensus among historian experts in hieroglyphics that Thutmose I was a real pharaoh to decreed all male slave babies be killed, which is a event written in the Bible( most famous history book).

By aliens I refer more to beings like Heket and Khnum, the reptilian Gods.

As for Deification of Leaders, that’s a rare thing these days and i don’t see that in Christianity. Deification is a sin

Avatar image for sundown89
Sundown89

1971

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@djmasta: Okay now we have some more details, lets break them down.

The Exodus happened Eons ago much of Egypt’s history is lost but there is a common consensus among historian experts in hieroglyphics that Thutmose I was a real pharaoh to decreed all male slave babies be killed...

Well I know something about the 17th Dynasty, and yes Thutmose the First appears to be real as we have the mummified remains of his daughter. What I can't find is this decree regarding the slaying of all male slave children. I searched for Thutmose the First ordered children to be killed and can't find any articles or sources. So if you have a peer reviewed source that is not the bible, please can you provide a link.

which is a event written in the Bible( most famous history book).

Okay so the Bible does have historical events in it, but it is primarily a religious text, and everything else secondarily. It should not be considered the most famous history book (most famous historical text is okay but still a wee bit dubious). I would argue something like Livy's History of Rome (or a hundred others that deal primarily with history) are more deserving of being the most famous history book. That is unless you believe that everything in the Bible is correct, in which case I need to teach you why bats are not birds.

By aliens I refer more to beings like Heket and Khnum, the reptilian Gods.

So Heqet is associated with Hathor and is represented as a frog, Khnum is a man with the head of a ram or an ibex, I hate to break it to you but neither rams, ibexes or frogs are reptiles. The fact that you chose two fertility gods to consider 'reptilian' is interesting, especially since Khnum is give the epitaph 'Lord of Created Things' and Heqet is said to breathe life into children as they were born. Part of me feels you have targeted these two over more obviously reptilian gods such as Sobek and Wadjet (crocodile and cobra) but I can't understand why.

Also what's wrong with reptiles, I work with snakes and lizards a lot and they are pretty cool.

As for Deification of Leaders, that’s a rare thing these days and i don’t see that in Christianity. Deification is a sin

What about all those people who are sanctified that's essentially deification. Or the fact the Jesus (if he ever existed) was likely an apocalypticist preacher who was deified after he died. And then there is the 'divine right of kings' where the monarch is, before birth, pre-ordained to inherit the crown, chosen by God and in the image of God. Now I don't pretend to pay attention to the British Royal Family, but I'm pretty sure a new king was coronated pretty recently under the same 'divine right of kings'.

I really hope you don't take everything in the bible as literal as there are some horrible things contained in their, and I'm not just talking about bats being classified as birds, or being burnt for all eternity in hellfire for a finite crime.

Avatar image for djmasta
DjMasta

346

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#18  Edited By DjMasta

@sundown89:

@sundown89 said:

@djmasta: Okay now we have some more details, lets break them down.

I really hope you don't take everything in the bible as literal as there are some horrible things contained in their, and I'm not just talking about bats being classified as birds, or being burnt for all eternity in hellfire for a finite crime.

100% Every word. If the Bible says a bat is a bird, then it is! A bird is a creature with wings.

Also, some things had a different meaning back then. For example, in Exodus God sent Bread to feed the Hebrews in the wilderness. When Hebrews saw the bread, they didn't know what it was, and named it manna. The Manna is not really bread, But to God it is, so it's bread.

The word of God is Holy, meaning their are no lies in the Bible!

@sundown89 said:

@djmasta:

which is a event written in the Bible( most famous history book).

Okay so the Bible does have historical events in it, but it is primarily a religious text, and everything else secondarily. It should not be considered the most famous history book (most famous historical text is okay but still a wee bit dubious). I would argue something like Livy's History of Rome (or a hundred others that deal primarily with history) are more deserving of being the most famous history book. That is unless you believe that everything in the Bible is correct, in which case I need to teach you why bats are not birds.

The scriptures Teach us the true history of this world, it being the number one selling book of all time. So yes, most famous history book is the Bible. You can argue Livy's history of Rome, or a hundred others for that matter but statistically the numbers show.

http://www.prophecysociety.org/?p=6442

Check the hypothesis section near the bottom, The Pharaoh in the ExoDus is said to be Thutmose I, but another disputed name is Amenhotep II. The decreed was in the 18th Dynasty.

@sundown89 said:

What about all those people who are sanctified that's essentially deification. Or the fact the Jesus (if he ever existed) was likely an apocalypticist preacher who was deified after he died. And then there is the 'divine right of kings' where the monarch is, before birth, pre-ordained to inherit the crown, chosen by God and in the image of God. Now I don't pretend to pay attention to the British Royal Family, but I'm pretty sure a new king was coronated pretty recently under the same 'divine right of kings'.

"Sanctification" is an ancient practice that is required to "get near" the presence of God. It is not "Deification". A good example of that is this

No Caption Provided

No one in Christianity is doing this. The son of God gets a pass, but anyone else gets a ticket to amber.

The crown of the British Family is also not really doing anything wrong, no one is worshipping King charles or comparing him to YAH. Deified people literally thought themselves as Gods, like ancient Pharaohs and Babylonians, not rally UK British.

As for ancient Egyptian Gods, there is a reason why I call them reptilian. The first adversary in history was the ancient serpent in the Garden of Eden, Telling people they can be like God.

That same concept was practiced heavily in ancient Egypt. Pharaohs were not only deified, but they had a serpentine crown on their forehead. This means Egypt's highest authority, represented the adversary.

You see, Exodus was not only about Hebrews escaping slavery, but also about YAH's Authority vs Earth's mightiest Authority. The only animal to challenge God was the serpent, so all those animalistic things ancient Egyptian's worshipped, was it's offspring. And just like the Serpent, Egypt was forever altered.

FYI i don't have an issue with snakes, i think their interesting, but the ancient serpent is no regular snake, neither it's offspring.

Avatar image for amonfire1776
Amonfire1776

4588

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

What an interesting discussion!

Avatar image for arranvid
ArranVid

7439

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

I do not think God is evil but I do not think I can comprehend God because His ways are beyond my comprehension since I am just a human being. Sometimes I think I can feel the love of God...for example, I recently went through life saving spinal surgery and I do thank the doctors for their help of course but I think God had a part to play in that...I think He wanted me to live because my time was not up yet according to Him. Yes, I agree that there is a lot of suffering in the universe but maybe karma plays a part...like the cycle of reincarnation and how beings get born into a new bad life because of the bad actions they did in their previous life. I do get frustrated with God, I can understand your frustration. For example, my neck can no longer function as well as it used to and that's permanent...the same thing could be said for my legs...I something think to myself why did God allow this to happen to me when I am a good person in general whereas more immoral people like Adolf Hitler got away with having a healthy human body and stuff. I think God is good, but I am not sure. Maybe God is indifferent to our pleas to Him for help and to our pleas for a happier life.

Avatar image for arranvid
ArranVid

7439

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

I say God is a 'he' but I think that God is actually genderless, neither male nor female. I think God is a genderless spirit or something genderless and far beyond our comprehension...like we cannot describe God...but I think God does exist. I'm not sure whether Satan and angels exist...I don't think they do. But I do think God exists.

Avatar image for sundown89
Sundown89

1971

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@djmasta:One down, one to go...

@djmasta: 100% Every word. If the Bible says a bat is a bird, then it is! A bird is a creature with wings.

Okay so I can go into taxonomy, but instead I will shelve that for a later dispute, remind me to call you out when I address that. The real question I now have to ask is, do you agree with everything in the bible. For example passages such as this;

Exodus 21 - “Now these are the rules that you shall set before them .2 When you buy a Hebrew slave,[a] he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing.3 If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him.4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out alone.5 But if the slave plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,’6 then his master shall bring him to God, and he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall bore his ear through with an awl, and he shall be his slave forever."

Reference a - Exodus 21:2 Or servant; the Hebrew term ‘ebed designates a range of social and economic roles; also verses 5, 6, 7, 20, 21, 26, 27, 32 (see Preface)

This passage states that its okay to trick someone into slavery, surely you can't agree that this is okay?

@djmasta: The scriptures Teach us the true history of this world, it being the number one selling book of all time. So yes, most famous history book is the Bible. You can argue Livy's history of Rome, or a hundred others for that matter but statistically the numbers show.

http://www.prophecysociety.org/?p=6442

Check the hypothesis section near the bottom, The Pharaoh in the ExoDus is said to be Thutmose I, but another disputed name is Amenhotep II. The decreed was in the 18th Dynasty.

So I followed the link and there is no source for the information. Unless you can point to Thutmose I doing this in a historical text or a peer reviewed paper, then I have no choice not to believe it.

The Bible is not a history book, its a historical text that does contain some historical value, but primarily its a religious text. In that context yes, of course it would sell a lot of copies, its been around for centuries as a readily purchasable book, associated with a major religion.

@djmasta: As for ancient Egyptian Gods, there is a reason why I call them reptilian. The first adversary in history was the ancient serpent in the Garden of Eden, Telling people they can be like God.

That same concept was practiced heavily in ancient Egypt. Pharaohs were not only deified, but they had a serpentine crown on their forehead. This means Egypt's highest authority, represented the adversary.

That snake in the crown is Wadjet, a goddess of protection. The first confirmed historical mention of the Israelites is in 1290 BCE, and Egypt as a major power came together in 3100 BCE. In fact throughout Minoan, Mesopotamian, Egyptian and Greek mythology there are snake deities that are either good or neutral actors in the pantheon, pantheons that are attached to mythologies that existed before the Israelites.

If I was making a religion and I wanted to attract converts from the faiths around me I would demonise an existing figure (or a figure in their likeness), make people scared of what they believed was correct, especially if I could tie it into a calamity and/or a charismatic speaker.

@djmasta The crown of the British Family is also not really doing anything wrong, no one is worshipping King charles or comparing him to YAH. Deified people literally thought themselves as Gods, like ancient Pharaohs and Babylonians, not rally UK British.

Having trouble deciphering the last part of this that's in italics. I suspect its because English is my second language. Also while I don't like him Charles is a name and a proper noun. It should be capitalised, same with the names of people and place.

@djmasta: You see, Exodus was not only about Hebrews escaping slavery, but also about YAH's Authority vs Earth's mightiest Authority. The only animal to challenge God was the serpent, so all those animalistic things ancient Egyptian's worshipped, was it's offspring. And just like the Serpent, Egypt was forever altered.

I agree its also, as the quote above states, setting out the rules for the Israelites to keep people as property, as well as God okaying the genocide of the Midianites.

I really hope you do disagree with some of the stuff in the bible even if you think it is true, because some of the stuff in Exodus alone is immoral and inexcusable.

Avatar image for djmasta
DjMasta

346

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#23  Edited By DjMasta

@sundown89:

@sundown89 said:

@djmasta:One down, one to go...

@djmasta: 100% Every word. If the Bible says a bat is a bird, then it is! A bird is a creature with wings.

Okay so I can go into taxonomy, but instead I will shelve that for a later dispute, remind me to call you out when I address that. The real question I now have to ask is, do you agree with everything in the bible. For example passages such as this;

Exodus 21 - “Now these are the rules that you shall set before them .2 When you buy a Hebrew slave,[a] he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing.3 If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him.4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out alone.5 But if the slave plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,’6 then his master shall bring him to God, and he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall bore his ear through with an awl, and he shall be his slave forever."

Reference a - Exodus 21:2 Or servant; the Hebrew term ‘ebed designates a range of social and economic roles; also verses 5, 6, 7, 20, 21, 26, 27, 32 (see Preface)

This passage states that its okay to trick someone into slavery, surely you can't agree that this is okay?

This Passage,

No Caption Provided

KING JAMES VERSION

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Valerica Version

No Caption Provided

Spurgeons

No Caption Provided

Does not mean what you think it does, No one here is getting tricked into slavery. What Bible are you using? I ask because the versions i posted differs a bit from what you posted. But anyway, The law in these verses are clear between a Master and a Slave, so where is the trickery?

@sundown89 said:

So I followed the link and there is no source for the information. Unless you can point to Thutmose I doing this in a historical text or a peer reviewed paper, then I have no choice not to believe it.

The information is there

No Caption Provided

Like i said it's a common consensus among experts in this sort of thing so you or anyone choosing not to believe is not an issue, we have the historic written records of these events in the bible.

@sundown89 said:

The Bible is not a history book, its a historical text that does contain some historical value, but primarily its a religious text. In that context yes, of course it would sell a lot of copies, its been around for centuries as a readily purchasable book, associated with a major religion.

Incorrect. It's both a historic book and text. It can be used for a variety of purposes not just for religious practices and it's cosmological map is spot on.

@sundown89 said:

That snake in the crown is Wadjet, a goddess of protection.

Sure, Crown of the Adversary.

@sundown89 said:

The first confirmed historicalmention of the Israelites is in 1290 BCE, and Egypt as a major power came together in 3100 BCE. In fact throughout Minoan, Mesopotamian, Egyptian and Greek mythology there are snake deities that are either good or neutral actors in the pantheon, pantheons that are attached to mythologies that existed before the Israelites.

It's widely believed Egypt is much older than we think so where is the confirmation coming from? The point of accuracy is within Egypt's Prime, not when it first started. Many Mythologies existed before Israel, I don't see how that's relevant though. Things like Greek mythology is mythological, The events in Exodus are actual events recorded by the House of Jacob/Levy.

@sundown89 said:

If I was making a religion and I wanted to attract converts from the faiths around me I would demonise an existing figure (or a figure in their likeness), make people scared of what they believed was correct, especially if I could tie it into a calamity and/or a charismatic speaker.

Cool, but the law is actually for Israel, not outsiders. God already came and chose his people, so no need to convince others that they are worshipping a false god. No son of Jacob was telling others how to live other than Israel.

@sundown89 said:

Having trouble deciphering the last part of this that's in italics. I suspect its because English is my second language. Also while I don't like him Charles is a name and a proper noun. It should be capitalised, same with the names of people and place.

Sure, but why does it matter? Is there a difference in interpretation from the name Charles to charles? If so, what's the difference? I'm astonished that you would pay much attention to the letter C in Charles given my goal here was to give clarity on the word deification.

@sundown89 said:

I agree its also, as the quote above states, setting out the rules for the Israelites to keep people as property, as well as God okaying the genocide of the Midianites.

Yes, and The Canaanites, Perizzites, Jebusites, Hivites, Amorites, Hittites, because they are not part of the covenant.

@sundown89 said:

I really hope you do disagree with some of the stuff in the bible even if you think it is true, because some of the stuff in Exodus alone is immoral and inexcusable.

I agree, Anyone comparing to the Almighty and enslaving his people is definitely immoral and inexcusable. As for the Bible, it's holy and inspired by God, so i concur with everything.

Avatar image for sundown89
Sundown89

1971

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@djmasta: I will get to this after work but here’s that quote for tricking someone into eternal bondage from Exodus.

If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master’s, and he shall go out alone. 5 But jif the slave plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,’ 6 then his master shall bring him to kGod, and he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall bore his ear through with an awl, and he shall be his slave forever.

The fact that a master can give a slave a wife and that keeps her indefinitely enslaved is cruel. Even crueler is manipulating the heart strings of someone who could go free. If they love their wife and any children produced they have to remain enslaved. It is a cruel trick and emotional blackmail.

Additionally the fact that you concur with everything in the bible is quite worrying.

Avatar image for jacdec
jacdec

5012

Forum Posts

483281

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 9

@djmasta said:

@sundown89:

The Exodus happened Eons ago much of Egypt’s history is lost but there is a common consensus among historian experts in hieroglyphics that Thutmose I was a real pharaoh to decreed all male slave babies be killed, which is a event written in the Bible( most famous history book).

It all looks like a big soup. The history of Egypt is better and better known. Many original texts are discovered while the Hebrew texts are largely later. As far as the scientific consensus is concerned, I will cite Wikipedia, which does not go in the same direction.

Lester Grabbe, summarizing the dominant position in historical and archaeological research on the subject in 2016, states that "despite the efforts of some fundamentalists, there is no way to save the biblical text as a description of a historical event A large population of Israelites, living in their own part of the country, did not leave an Egypt devastated by various plagues and stripped of its riches and spent forty years in the desert before conquering the Canaanites."

Assuming that the Exodus was real, the Bible places it under the reign of Thutmosis III and not Thutmosis I. It is true that we are not within a few centuries. The practice of slavery in Egypt is more and more controversial, it would rather be servitude, which is different. The episode of the elimination of baby male slaves is only told in the Bible, there is no other known source that would mention it.

Avatar image for lightordark
LightorDark

4734

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

I would like to state that technically Malthiesm cannot exist since god is omnibenevolent. Based on Divine Command theory, an omnibenevolent God cannot do evil and is not held to the human standard (or any standard for that matter) of morals or ethincs.

Essentially, whatever God does or says is inherently good. So, genocide is fine in the eyes of the Christian God. He’s done it on more than one occasion.

Killing every first born male in Egypt was good, not evil, because God can do no evil since his is omnibenevolent. If people think otherwise, then we don’t have a correct understanding of good and evil. To phrase it like most Christians, “we cannot understand god.”

Anyway, if you believe in God and that God is omnibenevolent, then God cannot be evil or perform evil acts because whatever God does is defined as good, not matter how heinous the act by human standards.

Avatar image for thespartanb345t
TheSpartanB345T

9374

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

So... you believe in God but think he's evil?? I feel like if you're going to go through the effort of realizing that Abrahamic deities (God, Allah, and Jesus) cannot be all good, all powerful, and all knowing simultaneously, you might as well realize that the rest of those religions make no sense either.

If the holy books of those religions are lying about God being good, why would you trust anything they say? After all, their reliability is wholly dependent on the reader accepting ALL premises within the text; picking and choosing makes the entire religion useless.

I certainly believe that IF God existed they would be evil or apathetic to human suffering. However, I also know that God isn't real and there is no reason to believe any supernatural thing exists.

Avatar image for lightordark
LightorDark

4734

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

If the holy books of those religions are lying about God being good, why would you trust anything they say? After all, their reliability is wholly dependent on the reader accepting ALL premises within the text; picking and choosing makes the entire religion useless.

This is a very overlooked part to religions. Religions texts that claim divine inspiration are a house of cards. One inconsistency crumbles the entire structure.

Avatar image for firestarlord73194
FireStarLord73194

8393

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Based off what? If you think that’s based off the Bible, then you are sorely missing the point

Avatar image for djmasta
DjMasta

346

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#30  Edited By DjMasta
@jacdec said:

Assuming that the Exodus was real, the Bible places it under the reign of Thutmosis III and not Thutmosis I. It is true that we are not within a few centuries. The practice of slavery in Egypt is more and more controversial, it would rather be servitude, which is different. The episode of the elimination of baby male slaves is only told in the Bible, there is no other known source that would mention it.

The link i posted is from a actual source who did some thorough research on the matter and it's been posted for a while without any debunk. I personally take these consensus with a grain of salt tho since the only confirmation i need is the word.

Now, I don't see Pharaoh's name in the Bible. The names you mention are what's disputed by experts who think the exodus is around such dynasty. But the truth is no one know how old Egypt is, it could be tens of thousands of Years old. And based on that possibility alone, how would we ever find such records? There's countries that have had their history wiped clean to the point even languages are forgotten just look at latin America indigenous. That happened not too long ago actually, Yet wikipedia knows barely anything about Tainos.

Everyone practice slavery back then, it's just Egypt treated slaves badly.

@sundown89 said:

@djmasta: I will get to this after work but here’s that quote for tricking someone into eternal bondage from Exodus.

If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master’s, and he shall go out alone. 5 But jif the slave plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,’ 6 then his master shall bring him to kGod, and he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall bore his ear through with an awl, and he shall be his slave forever.

The fact that a master can give a slave a wife and that keeps her indefinitely enslaved is cruel. Even crueler is manipulating the heart strings of someone who could go free. If they love their wife and any children produced they have to remain enslaved. It is a cruel trick and emotional blackmail.

Additionally the fact that you concur with everything in the bible is quite worrying.

This Passage.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Does not mean what you think it does. If a Hebrew Master is "giving" a Hebrew Bondsman, a wife, then the wife was already the Master's. She is either a maidservant, or a daughter, or both, for a Master to give her away. And as far as keeping one "indefinitely" A maidservant only serve six years. The very same passage also has laws protecting both parties from mischief. For example, if a Master decides to keep the wife he has given the Hebrew bondsman, and she wants to be with the Hebrew bondsman, then she is allowed to be redeemed.

Is there anything else you find cruel in ExoDus? So far these examples has just been a bit of a misunderstanding.

Avatar image for sundown89
Sundown89

1971

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@djmasta: In general the owning of another human being as property is disgusting. The fact that non Israelite slaves don’t get released is unfair and even more vile. Also…

Exodus 21:7, “If a man sells his daughter as a female slave, she is not to go free as the male slaves do.”

I don’t think I need to say more about it.

Additionally the fact that you said ‘I disagree with this’ but only with only Egyptians keeping Israelites as slaves and pharaohs claiming to be deities or dons of deities in their own religion is disturbing.

So let’s run one last scenario.

You are an Israelite in the rough time of Exodus but with the post enlightenment thinking we enjoy in the modern day. I’m still my atheistic self and you take me as a slave. Do you accept the rules of the time and keep me as a slave (for my entire life as I’m not an Israelite) or do you release me?

Avatar image for djmasta
DjMasta

346

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#32  Edited By DjMasta
@sundown89 said:

@djmasta: In general the owning of another human being as property is disgusting. The fact that non Israelite slaves don’t get released is unfair and even more vile. Also…

Bro these Laws are for Jacob's sons, not outsiders.

@sundown89 said:

Exodus 21:7, “If a man sells his daughter as a female slave, she is not to go free as the male slaves do.”

I don’t think I need to say more about it.

Wording and interpretation is wrong. Check spoilers.

@sundown89 said:

Additionally the fact that you said ‘I disagree with this’ but only with only Egyptians keeping Israelites as slaves and pharaohs claiming to be deities or dons of deities in their own religion is disturbing.

Im not sure i understood this right.

@sundown89 said:

So let’s run one last scenario.

You are an Israelite in the rough time of Exodus but with the post enlightenment thinking we enjoy in the modern day. I’m still my atheistic self and you take me as a slave. Do you accept the rules of the time and keep me as a slave (for my entire life as I’m not an Israelite) or do you release me?

You are not a son of Jacob so I would not purchase you, but if you were, I'd buy you for six years and if you fall in love with my daughter, and she does not want to leave her house, then you be mine forever and I give her to you or no deal. Where's the trickery?

If you want a maidservants, same deal. But If there is a dispute between us for the maidservant ( maybe she likes me more than you, or maybe she likes another servant of mine more than you, or she likes you but i like her too etc) whatever the reason there are laws made to achieve what's fair.

Avatar image for sundown89
Sundown89

1971

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#33  Edited By Sundown89

The fact you would own another person for even seven years is disgusting and degenerate.

Avatar image for jacdec
jacdec

5012

Forum Posts

483281

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 9

@djmasta said:
@sundown89 said:

@djmasta: In general the owning of another human being as property is disgusting. The fact that non Israelite slaves don’t get released is unfair and even more vile. Also…

Bro these Laws are for Jacob's sons, not outsiders.

@sundown89 said:

Exodus 21:7, “If a man sells his daughter as a female slave, she is not to go free as the male slaves do.”

I don’t think I need to say more about it.

Wording and interpretation is wrong. Check spoilers.

@sundown89 said:

Additionally the fact that you said ‘I disagree with this’ but only with only Egyptians keeping Israelites as slaves and pharaohs claiming to be deities or dons of deities in their own religion is disturbing.

Im not sure i understood this right.

@sundown89 said:

So let’s run one last scenario.

You are an Israelite in the rough time of Exodus but with the post enlightenment thinking we enjoy in the modern day. I’m still my atheistic self and you take me as a slave. Do you accept the rules of the time and keep me as a slave (for my entire life as I’m not an Israelite) or do you release me?

You are not a son of Jacob so I would not purchase you, but if you were, I'd buy you for six years and if you fall in love with my daughter, and she does not want to leave her house, then you be mine forever and I give her to you or no deal. Where's the trickery?

If you want a maidservants, same deal. But If there is a dispute between us for the maidservant ( maybe she likes me more than you, or maybe she likes another maid servant of mine more than you, or she likes you more etc) whatever the reason there are laws made to achieve what's fair.

Arrête ton char Ben Hur ! (come off it! ; don't exaggerate! ; enough already!) Slavery cannot be defended, in any circumstance whatsoever !

Avatar image for djmasta
DjMasta

346

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@sundown89: why? You ever serve in military, same thing.

Avatar image for djmasta
DjMasta

346

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#36  Edited By DjMasta

@jacdec: back then this was common everywhere and Hebrews didn’t mistreat one another also I’m not defending slavery.

Avatar image for sundown89
Sundown89

1971

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@djmasta: Indentured servitude is no better or defendable then slavery but when give the chance to stand up and say it was wrong you chose to say you would engage in it as a master.

If the roles were reversed You would have been free immediately as my moral code tells me that owning people is wrong.

Avatar image for sundown89
Sundown89

1971

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@djmasta: I’m sorry but Exidus works against you again.

20 “When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. 21 But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.

Also being in the military is not like indentured servitude. One is a profession the other is taking another person as property.

Avatar image for djmasta
DjMasta

346

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#39  Edited By DjMasta

@sundown89: Can you elaborate on whats so bad about Hebrew servitude? It's essentially like going to the military. Soldiers are property of the government.

Avatar image for jacdec
jacdec

5012

Forum Posts

483281

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 9

@djmasta said:

@jacdec: back then this was common everywhere and Hebrews didn’t mistreat one another also I’m not defending slavery.

So the Bible contains a truth of its time but which is not universal and no longer corresponds in any way to the values of the current times. We finally agree on something.

Avatar image for sundown89
Sundown89

1971

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#41  Edited By Sundown89

@djmasta: You really are misguided if you think that.

Military personnel are just government employees. If they were government property, they would be thrown away or sold, instead of retired or discharged. And, killing a soldier or sailor (in a domestic dispute or a bar fight, for example) would only be 'destruction of government property', not 'Murder'.

Avatar image for jacdec
jacdec

5012

Forum Posts

483281

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 9

@jacdec: You really are misguided if you think that.

Military personnel are just government employees. If they were government property, they would be thrown away or sold, instead of retired or discharged. And, killing a soldier or sailor (in a domestic dispute or a bar fight, for example) would only be 'destruction of government property', not 'Murder'.

There is a misunderstanding. I agree with what you say. Soldier is a profession and a free choice. My point was about the universal value of the Bible, not the OP's other assertions.

Avatar image for sundown89
Sundown89

1971

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#43  Edited By Sundown89

@jacdec: Sorry I sent it to the wrong person it should have gone to the other person.

Apologies for that I will readjust

Avatar image for deactivated-646ddac062892
deactivated-646ddac062892

15

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

I'm just an athiest.

Avatar image for cocacolaman
cocacolaman

27096

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#45 cocacolaman  Moderator

Humans are truly a sight.

Avatar image for steve40l
Steve40L

4746

Forum Posts

144

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

I'm just an atheist.

Avatar image for sixpathsofcapra
SixPathsOfCapra

6742

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Cringe

Avatar image for azraelotaku
azraelotaku

1275

Forum Posts

155

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 27

Avatar image for sixpathsofcapra
SixPathsOfCapra

6742

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Avatar image for azraelotaku
azraelotaku

1275

Forum Posts

155

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 27