Anatomy of a GOAT: What Makes an Athlete the Greatest of all Time?

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Stormdriven

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For decades, millions of sports fans have debated, argued, and fought over great players being better than other great players. For each sport, those discussions culminate in the question "Who is the greatest of all time?" or "The GOAT" as so many call it. A difficult question to answer, as there are so many variables to take into account when trying to determine who should be considered the greatest player to ever play their respective sport. There are different eras, different rules, different circumstances, different types of training.

For me, there are certain things I believe go into being the greatest that transcend all of the above, things that are universal to players considered "The GOAT" or those I see as having an argument despite not being my personal choice. As a disclaimer, all of this will be my opinion, and I won't necessarily be trying to convince anyone that my choices for the greatest in different sports are the correct or only choice. Feel free to disagree, and voice opinions as well, I'd love to see others' choices/arguments. All of that being said, let's get to it.

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STATS ARE IMPORTANT...

Statistics are the measure of the tangible aspects to the game being played. Thousands upon thousands of players have played every sport you can think of, so the greats separate themselves by amassing impressive stats throughout the entirety of their careers. They can be affected by longevity, although longevity is not necessary to have impressive stat lines. Stats can show how effective, and more importantly, how consistent players are in their play. So of course, the higher the stats means the better the player, right? Usually that is the case. Usually.

... BUT THEY DON'T TELL THE WHOLE STORY

Don't get me wrong, stats are important. Never let anyone tell you otherwise. What too many people do is they post a stat line from a game to show "This player is so good, they're one of the best, they're better than so and so!" There are many who use stats as gospel for determining one player being better than another. Again, they are important. A great player needs impressive stats for them to even be considered in the conversation as the best ever. But if stats were the only thing we went off of, Wilt Chamberlain would be the greatest basketball player ever, and he isn't. No one puts him in that conversation. He's acknowledged as being a statistical marvel, which he is, but not the best ever. Granted, he played in a different era, but that's not the point here. Another issue is people tend to go down the rabbit hole with finding the most obscure or arbitrary statistics that ultimately break down every single minutia of the game that don't need to be analyzed that deeply. Baseball is the biggest offender in this regard, with using analytics that go so far as to determine how great outfielders are by starting their movements a millisecond faster or a foot quicker in comparison to others. Those are the tiniest of details that would make a player a great one if looked at in a vacuum, but needing to ignore the bigger picture to fit their narrative.

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WELL CHAMPIONSHIPS MUST BE IT, RIGHT?

No, not really. Michael Jordan is widely considered the greatest basketball player of all time, yet he doesn't have the most rings. Bill Russell does, and he isn't considered in the GOAT conversation. Robert Horry has more rings than Jordan, and no one in their right mind would argue he's better than Jordan.

That being said, the name of the game is to win. Why else would anybody play? Championships are of course necessary to make a case for a player. Dan Marino is one of the most talented players in NFL history. Put up against most of his other competition, it isn't even close. So why doesn't he get the nod as GOAT? He didn't win. Yes, wins are a team stat. Yes, great players don't always win yet are still considered great in spite of it. But can you really be the greatest if you didn't win anything?

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FEELIN' LUCKY?

Ah yes, luck. The least quantifiable thing in all of sports. There's no training for it, there's no buying it, no asking for it. Sometimes, things just happen. The greatest and best players, dynasties, teams, you name it, get lucky breaks. Players get injured, playoff standings go the way of the winner due to another team losing a game they should've won thereby giving them home field advantage, they're the recipient of a miraculous play or a frustrating foul/penalty. Even as my pick for GOAT in the NFL, I'll admit Tom Brady has gotten some lucky breaks throughout his career. It's hard to argue, but that doesn't take away from his or anybody else's' greatness. Sometimes, a player is prevented from ascending further due to an unlucky play. It happens. As fortunate or unfortunate as it may be, there's no accounting for luck.

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DO YOU HAVE A MOMENT?

Sports, like life, are full of moments. They're what make them so memorable, so full of meaning. Do we remember every single 50 point game in Michael Jordan's career? No, of course not. Everyone knows "The Shot" to win his 6th NBA championship. Off the top of anyone's head, does anybody remember his stat line for that game? I'll be impressed if you do. Many won't recall, because the most important part of the game was that moment. And here's where the real discussion begins. How do players make these moments happen? A great player can have a terrible game, and yet they'll pull off the most ridiculous, the most amazing, the most spectacular plays at the end to give his/her team the win. The greatest players will make things happen when they're need the most. Shannon Sharpe, NFL Hall of Fame Tight End, says it best here:

2:39-4:23

He talks about Tom Brady in this case, but it applies to all the greatest players ever. Great players elevate their teams, and the greatest are at their best when it is needed the most. This is what stats and championships ignore. You can have impressive stats yet still lose, and you can win a bunch of championships and not be a great player. If stats and championships are the outline for a painting, moments are the color. They give life to the incredible career for the greats. LeBron James won't be remembered for his triple doubles, he'll be remembered as the leader of the team that beat the 73 win juggernaut Golden State Warriors.

The drive to create these moments can't be coached. A player can only be taught how to play the game, but only he can actually change the game. You can be the most talented athlete on the planet, it means absolutely nothing if you don't work hard at it. Hard work and heart are the epitome of what it means to be great. Look at Tom Brady. One of the worst athletes physically to play the QB position, and he doesn't have the most impressive arm talent. But he's the definition of hard work and drive. Talent can win you games, but hard work and will to win get you championships.

THE DEBATE RAGES ON

I don't expect anything I say here to really change the overall debate. Many will still point to stats, many will still point to championships, many will be hypocritical to suit their bias. I get it. Everyone is biased. Hell I'm definitely biased too. No one is going to change my mind (at least right now) on my personal choices being the GOATs in their sports. These debates can be fun though, and one can learn a lot about other players they may not have known before. And they're certainly not going to end any time soon.

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Straight-Fire

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Well, this is nice.

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anthp2000

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#3 anthp2000  Moderator

I see no reason not to read through this tomorrow.

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Stormdriven

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@straight-fire: Not sure if that’s sarcasm or not, but it was just something I’ve been thinking about lately with LeBron playing well and Brady playing kinda average. Hence putting it in Off-Topic :0)

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Straight-Fire

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@stormdriven: No I legit meant it. You did a good job here and I was giving you cred for it. ;P

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IndomitableRegal

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This thread...was a hell of a lot better than I was expecting when I saw a random goat gif lol. Good analysis.

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Stormdriven

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@stormdriven: No I legit meant it. You did a good job here and I was giving you cred for it. ;P

This thread...was a hell of a lot better than I was expecting when I saw a random goat gif lol. Good analysis.

Thank you guys :D

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Alavanka

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Artem Lobov.

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buildhare

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It's Don Bradman.

Stories are important but stats are the end all.

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Stormdriven

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@buildhare: So Karl Malone is better than LeBron James?

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blackspidey2099

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It's Don Bradman.

Stories are important but stats are the end all.

I think stories are important and can account for and maybe even overshadow a stats disparity if its reasonably close. However when you have a case like Bradman being twice as good as any other player to ever play the sport, no story can close that gap. I don't think any other mainstream sport has a player that far above his peers, unless there's some really obscure sports I don't know about.

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deactivated-5e5b16d537c03

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I don't know what the anatomy of a goat and an athlete have in common, so...

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buttersdaman000

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I think you have to make a distinction between "best" and "greatest". When you say someone is the GOAT, you're encompassing their overall effect on the game. They have to be extremely notable, extremely good, and extremely decorated, but, albeit, to a lesser extent IMO. And I think the fame is entirely dependent on the latter two qualifications since you're simply not going to have a notable player who isn't good or decorated.

Those are the qualifications to be considered (a) GOAT. Michael Jordan is the most famous basketball player of all time, [one of] the most skilled player of all time, and while he may not be the most "decorated" player of all time, he's won enough to hold his own. Tom Brady is considered to be the GOAT quarterback of all time. He's the most notable, most decorated, and while he may not be the most skilled, he's up there, and his 6 rings more than make up for it anyways. The man is a winner.

But when you're speaking of who the "best" players is, it's more of a true skill based argument. What has this player shown, or proven to have you believe he's the best to ever do it?? You can be the best player ever, yet still not be the GOAT. Like you said, Dan Marino is probably the best quarterback to ever live, but he probably wouldn't crack the top 5 in the GOAT conversation.

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deactivated-60758db60e021

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@buildhare said:

It's Don Bradman.

Stories are important but stats are the end all.

This. Bradman nearly doubled the batting average of every other batsman to ever play. He was a freak of nature in terms of skill.

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MajinVegeta1994

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Barry Bonds was BY FAR the greatest player to ever pick up a baseball bat and there is NOTHING anyone can say or do to change my mind.

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Shinne

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Stats is meaningless without context.

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Flashkings

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Cristiano ronaldo!!

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SpareHeadOne

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Money

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jake_fury

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Nice work. I think the argument for GOAT in any sport is something that can ever be truly settled due to all of the factors you mentioned.

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TheSuperor

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Cristiano ronaldo!!

I like your sense of humor.

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Flashkings

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TheSuperor

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@thesuperor: I mean it!!

How is Ronaldo the greatest of all time though? That is something I don't get and probably never will get. Care to enlighten me?

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Flashkings

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@thesuperor: because he's dominant a whole decade, his numbers is comparable only by few (Messi and Pele), I've see people calling pele the Goat even though he played against baby teams

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TheSuperor

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@thesuperor: because he's dominant a whole decade, his numbers is comparable only by few (Messi and Pele), I've see people calling pele the Goat even though he played against baby teams

What separates Ronaldo from Messi in your opinion? In my book one is miles ahead of the other.

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Flashkings

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@thesuperor: Messi is an awesome player, and I know that, I won't argue with anyone who thinks he is the goat, but I just prefer cristiano, how he changes his style of play, he was a Skillful dribbler in man United, who usually leaves defenders on the flow or confused, then at real Madrid he became a prolific goalscorer, a goal scoring machine scoring at least 40+ goals in every season for more than 7 years, I'll admit he hasn't been that great since in Juventus but he's still awesome, he can score with his head, left foot, right foot, (has no weak foot) and score solo goals, has over 230 assists (messi with over 300) and yet people still claim he doesn't assist, name any player apart from messi that's not a midfielder who has more assists than Ronaldo (there might be but it wouldn't be more than 2 if not 0)

I love messi, I'm currently watching Atletico Madrid vs Barcelona now and he's playing good but I just prefer ronaldo

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TheSuperor

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@flashkings: That's all fair, but you made a case for who is your favorite player, not who the best is. There is a difference.

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Flashkings

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@thesuperor: for me HE is the best, and my case is

• HE has scored more than 700 goals

• Five Ballon Dior

• More Champions league goals than anybody else

•More Hat trick than messi who is supposed to be his contender

(Ronaldo 55 messi 52)

• 5 champions league title more than any other player

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TheSuperor

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@flashkings:

• HE has scored more than 700 goals

So has Messi, Romario, Pele and a bunch other players. He is not alone in this category.

• Five Ballon Dior

So has Messi. Criteria for winning the award is not solely individual performance though, meaning not the best player wins every year. Modric for instance should have never won the Balon dor

• More Champions league goals than anybody else

He has a worse games to goal ratio than Messi and Messi will likely take the top spot from him within a couple of years. Many of the greatest never played the CL, so kinda difficult to evaluate the importance of being the top CL goal scorer, for example being the top scorer in the WC.

More Hat trick than messi who is supposed to be his contender

(Ronaldo 55 messi 52)

This isn't a very strong argument I think. It's basically an irrelevant difference. If anything it's a stat that works slightly against Ronaldo as he bags in more hattricks against lower end sides, as he did against Lithuania.

• 5 champions league title more than any other player

Paco Gento won 6 CL titles, a lot of other players has won 5 CL titles together with Ronaldo. This is also a team effort, which I think we can't use to judge individual players on.

Neither of these points are of major importance in the grand scheme of deciding the best footballer.

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barretstrife

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Michael Jordan

Barry Bonds

Lawrence Taylor

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The_Justiciar

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Flashkings

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@thesuperor: I agree about modric not deserving the ballon dior 2018, personally I think Ronaldo should've won it

Most of the players in real has just 4 champions league titles, Ronaldo won 1 with United that's why he's one above his former real comrades

The part where you say ronaldo bangs more hat trick against bad teams is just a typical way to lowball ronaldo, he also bangs hat trick against top teams, such as Atletico and so on, and he's arguably a better Big game player than Messi, for example take a look at last season which is definitely his worst season since 2009, he scored all of Juventus knockout goals in the CL, even against Ajax, he scored away and at home, messi on the other hand couldn't do anything against Liverpool away(I know that's not all his fault though)

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TheSuperor

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@flashkings:

I agree about modric not deserving the ballon dior 2018, personally I think Ronaldo should've won it

Between Messi and Ronaldo for sure, Messi should have won in my opinion due to scoring more goals and having more assists.

Most of the players in real has just 4 champions league titles, Ronaldo won 1 with United that's why he's one above his former real comrades

Definitely above his former comrades. Can't even be argued. Champions League winner medals aren't directly tied individual greatness. The one with most medals of all time is not even in the goat debate. Case I'm trying to make is individual performance>team performance when judging individuals.

The part where you say ronaldo bangs more hat trick against bad teams is just a typical way to lowball ronaldo

No, it's factual. He scores hat tricks against lower placed teams than Messi does, and on the international stage he plays against way weaker opponents.

he also bangs hat trick against top teams, such as Atletico and so on,

Yes. Absolutely.

and he's arguably a better Big game player than Messi,

No. I feel like this is completely false, and mostly fabricated by the media due to Ronaldo winning consecutive CL's. Messi is way better head 2 head in important matches against Ronaldo. Let's take finale matches for instance, where Ronaldo is supposedly more important than Messi; Messi has 26 goals and 11 assists in 23 finals fore FCB. Ronaldo has 15 goals and 1 assist in 15 matches for RMD during the same period.

Messi has only 1 assist to show for in his 5 international finals, while Ronaldo has nothing to show for after his 3 international finals.

Ronaldo has never been past the round of 16 in a WC and has never been among the 10 best players of a international tournament. Messi has been in a WC final, and won the golden ball at a WC and been the best player in a Copa America.

he scored all of Juventus knockout goals in the CL, even against Ajax, he scored away and at home, messi on the other hand couldn't do anything against Liverpool away(I know that's not all his fault though)

I see where you are coming from but Messi scored 2 goals at home against Liverpool, one of the goals was the CL goal of the season. Messi was also the clear top scorer this CL. Ronaldo's Juve couldn't even beat Ajax, though it has to be mentioned that he too was let down by his team mates this CL.

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TheSuperor

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@flashkings: @thesuperor: Griezmann > both

Griezmann is actually great, though he is miles from the very best in the world, despite what he may think of himself.

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The_Justiciar

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@the_magister said:

@flashkings: @thesuperor: Griezmann > both

Griezmann is actually great, though he is miles from the very best in the world, despite what he may think of himself.

Agreed. I think there are some chemistry problems with him and Messi at Barca. Griezmann doesn't traditionally play in Barcelona's style, and I think Messi is picky about forming the team around himself.

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MAZAHS117

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This is also tends to be generational

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ninetoadclown

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It is kind of hard to justify someone as the goat of a team based sport.

I am no basketball expert or anything but how much of Jordan being the goat comes from the fact that he had great teammates too, same could be said of a lot of the people mentioned.

Also how do you compare people of the same sport. It different positions? Kind of easy with basketball, everyone is doing the same things but how would you compare someone like Barry Bonds to whoever the best pitcher ever would be?

Much easier to talk about individual sports like boxing, mma, tennis or the like.

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Flashkings

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@thesuperor: I won't argue about messi giving more assists than Ronaldo cause it's the truth, messi is a better team player than Ronaldo, but you also can't compare Ronaldo's Portugal and Messi's Argentina, Messi unarguably has better supporting players than Ronaldo, a team that has nothing but World class attack, as Average midfield

I'm picking Ronaldo over messi because if I'm a manager and I have both messi and Ronaldo on my bench, and I'm playing a match let's say 70 mins into the match and I'm in danger of being knockout from the champions league if I don't score, I'll send Ronaldo in instead of messi

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Uttarashada

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Having most rings/championships as the team leader.

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FaradaySloth

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#40  Edited By FaradaySloth

You can determine who is better through 1v1 when both were at least “good” example being Kobe vs LeBron, where Kobe was decisively showing that he was superior in most 1v1 encounters.

Or Brady vs Manning, with Brady having the upper hand most of the time.

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Shinne

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You can determine who is better through 1v1 when both were at least “good” example being Kobe vs LeBron, where Kobe was decisively showing that he was superior in most 1v1 encounters.

Not really, basketball isn't all about 1v1. The game itself is a team game. You can be a best one on one player on the court and still be less valuable than another guy, which is absolutely the case with Kobe and LeBron. The point of the game itself is winning, and the fact is, a guy like LeBron is simply the better option if you want your team to win, which makes him a better player than Kobe.

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deactivated-5ffd6af867550

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@flashkings: Tbh, Ronaldo seems to be the player you want to perform a miracle or win. Messi suffers from pressure too much.

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Flashkings

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@johnsmjs36: Actually every good player suffers from pressure, I wouldn't say messi suffers more from pressure than Ronaldo

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Flashkings

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@flashkings: Actually every good player suffers from pressure, I wouldn't say messi suffers more from pressure than Ronaldo

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TheSuperor

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#45  Edited By TheSuperor

@flashkings:

but you also can't compare Ronaldo's Portugal and Messi's Argentina, Messi unarguably has better supporting players than Ronaldo, a team that has nothing but World class attack, as Average midfield

This, is without a doubt the biggest misconception in this debate. Argentina looks great on the paper forward, though most of them don't perform at all. Ronaldo has for the last 5 years had a way better national team surrounding him than Messi. Pepe and Rui Patricio were the best Portugal players in the Euro they won, and Eder scored the winning goal. Guedes scored the winning goal in the Nations league. Portugal is a very well structured team, with a decent backline, and good goalkeeper, a decent midfield with good creative players and Ronaldo at the front.

Argentina is absolutely nothing without Messi. They have never a had a great goalkeeper, their backline is atrocious, their midfield is decent and their attack is amazing. But Argentina has always been a poorly structured and poorly coached team. Ronaldo's Portugal is better than Messi's Argentina if we remove the main men. It's a miracle that Messi managed to carry a shitty Argentina to 3 finals in a row.

I'm picking Ronaldo over messi because if I'm a manager and I have both messi and Ronaldo on my bench, and I'm playing a match let's say 70 mins into the match and I'm in danger of being knockout from the champions league if I don't score, I'll send Ronaldo in instead of messi

I don't think this settles the goat argument though and it really depends on the situation. Ole Gunnar Solskjær was probably a better super sub than either of them. I agree to a certain extent, Ronaldo would be the ideal player to throw in to get the winning goal if your team is creating chances but struggling with putting them away. He is possibly the best penalty box predator of all time. Ronaldo would not work in a situation where your team is not creating chances and you need a driving force to change the game. This is where Messi works way better. He dictates the game way better than Ronaldo.

Also worth noting is if you look at xG stats, which means expected goals, you can see that Ronaldo is expected to have more goals than Messi even if he scores less. This means that Ronaldo is set up by his team mates in better scoring positions and failing to score, while Messi scored goals from more positions where he is not expected to score. Meaning if you need a goal to come from out of nowhere, Messi is your man. Ronaldo needs to be presented with an opportunity, Messi creates the opportunity himself.

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FaradaySloth

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@lan_fan:

I don't think it matters whether or not basketball is a team sport, because if we go that route then you'd be getting into a broader sense, like, we'd be including people like Bill Walton & John Stockton.

My point is that another way to determine who is a "GOAT" you have to do 1v1's if they ever met, it's just as important, if not more important than stats, championships, and yes, even if how valued they were on a team.

If we go by 1v1's, Kobe was clearly shown to be better when paired against LeBron. Unless if it's highlighted that we include how valued they were, then we can discuss that.

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Straight-Fire

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@faradaysloth: When did Kobe show he was "decisively superior" to LeBron in one-on-one encounters?

And head-to-head in football definitely doesn't prove anything considering Brady and Manning weren't even on the field at the same time. And even if it was, well... Manning has three wins over Brady in the playoffs while Tom only has two.

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Shinne

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@faradaysloth: It matters though. Kobe being a better one on one player doesn't mean anything since basketball is MUCH more than 1v1. That's like having 3 point contest should determine who's the best of all time when really, it doesn't matter that much. It's gonna help your game, but it's not even close to be important enough to determine who the GOAT is.

because if we go that route then you'd be getting into a broader sense, like, we'd be including people like Bill Walton & John Stockton.

Well, yes... Of course we'd include them, why not?

My point is that another way to determine who is a "GOAT" you have to do 1v1's if they ever met, it's just as important, if not more important than stats, championships, and yes, even if how valued they were on a team.

Eh? Not even close, tbh. Honestly, I'd say they don't even matter at all.

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FaradaySloth

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@straight-fire:

When did Kobe show he was "decisively superior" to LeBron in one-on-one encounters?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncMtXkL4Gu4 This video contains most Kobe vs LeBron 1 on 1 plays, and about the purest form of who would win in a 1v1 basketball game. Although LeBron won more head to head matches (16-6) and had higher game scores (also 16-6), you're essentially putting a skilled Shooting Guard up against a monster Small Forward, and yet Kobe showed in the video still made more shots than LeBron, and even had a few defensive plays as well. Even going by the game score from basketball reference, Kobe outperformed LeBron overall in the game

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We should also know that every game in that video, LeBron is still rising to his peak while Kobe was declining. I believe in a 1 on 1 game between the two (to 21 points winner takes bragging rights) Kobe would win and for me, is more important than stats over a career since the former is more accurate.

And head-to-head in football definitely doesn't prove anything considering Brady and Manning weren't even on the field at the same time. And even if it was, well... Manning has three wins over Brady in the playoffs while Tom only has two.

Well then, we'd probably only be arguing WR vs CB and/or OL vs DL for GOAT arguments, but I see your point.

As for their records, Tom Brady clearly holds the advantage in H2H in terms of record, with 11-6, 8-2 at New England, 4-3 at Indianapolis/Denver. Manning was also surrounded by both incredible defenses and offensive tools especially when in Denver, while Brady usually was the main person throughout his whole career.

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FaradaySloth

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@lan_fan:

It matters though. Kobe being a better one on one player doesn't mean anything since basketball is MUCH more than 1v1.

Some of the only sports with actual 1v1 would be tennis. Basketball compared to other popular mainstream sports is more 1v1 than the rest of them. It's one of the only popular sports where players are constantly two-way starters. I get basketball is more of a team sport if anything, but when discussing skill and who's better, how valuable they are as a teammate would definitely be lower than the skill, stats, and accomplishments.

That's like having 3 point contest should determine who's the best of all time when really, it doesn't matter that much.

Not at all. I'm talking about fully having a 1 on 1 game as you would with your best friend at the local gym. Shooting, defense, etc. everything. Kobe simply preformed better during the 1 on 1, which is quite frankly the only way to decide who's better on the court in terms of "who would win"

It's gonna help your game, but it's not even close to be important enough to determine who the GOAT is.

I fail to see on 1v1 is not important in determining "who the GOAT is" If you consistently outplay people who are called "the best" at what they do, it makes sense you'd be in there too, or even be above them.

Well, yes... Of course we'd include them, why not?

Because they aren't better than what you usually see in the conversation. Having smart IQ, clutch plays, & hard effort which are probably the only relevant assets involving teamwork shouldn't propel yourself in the GOAT conversation when you've been outplayed and lacking deeply in stats. John Stockton only averaged like, 13 PPG and only made half of his FG, yet he means as much, if not more to his own team than some players like LeBron did.