19 year old kills 17 at Florida high school

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i_like_swords

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RIP. This needs to be taken seriously now, IDK how school kids are getting hands on automatic fire.

It's semi-automatic. Not an assault rifle, by definition.

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@godsaveusall: How are infants, elderly people and children supposed to be trained in weapons and martial arts? Not everyone can be Jackie Chan and Bruce Lee, they rely on the system to protect them. The system can't protect them if every lunatic can easily acquire weaponry.

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@godsaveusall: How are infants, elderly people and children supposed to be trained in weapons and martial arts? Not everyone can be Jackie Chan and Bruce Lee, they rely on the system to protect them. The system can't protect them if every lunatic can easily acquire weaponry.

Wouldn't it be the responsibility of fit adults to protect the elderly, children, and infants?

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i_like_swords

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@all-father: Not sure how the "system" is supposed to protect schools. They don't post guards or police or there. If someone starts attacking people you call the police and hope they turn up before too much damage is done.

Asking that people learn how to defend themselves, regardless of age, is hardly unreasonable.

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@i_like_swords: So let's just give every student in America a pistol and an Assault rifle and let them duke it out with the lunatics. Cause that makes perfect sense.

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@godsaveusall: Wouldn't it be the responsibility of the government to not make guns so easily attainable so that every adult in America needs have a weapon on him at all times?

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#57  Edited By dshipp17

Florida has the most loss gun regulations in the country; so bad that children have to take the shoulder over lawmakers' failure couple with refusal to separate party affiliation from commonsense; RIP to those 17 unfortunate children. And, it seems as if the 19 year old responsible was the product of at least social isolation until he could be expelled from school; wouldn't just simply try making the boy feel more welcome, as an alternative to just expelling him from school; one start was making him feel more welcome; after that, proactively seeing what was wrong with the parenting; and, than, taking additional matters to help him be developed as a person; that's what it appears from the surface; he looks like an ok young man, so, must have just been very awkward social behavior; he was open, if someone spoken to him; this was both a case of messed up parenting and a messed up and egotistical society training children to grow up egotistical; clearly, he needed to feel a sense of belonging; of course women and girls get it, but men could used it at times too; but, the gut reaction is probably going to be just the opposite.

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@streak619: You are one of the few with common sense

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@dshipp17 said:

Florida has the most loss gun regulations in the country; so bad that children have to take the shoulder over lawmakers' failure couple with refusal to separate party affiliation from commonsense; RIP to those 17 unfortunate children. And, it seems as if the 19 year old responsible was the product of at least social isolation until he could be expelled from school; wouldn't just simply try making the boy feel more welcome, as an alternative to just expelling him from school; one start was making him feel more welcome; after that, proactively seeing what was wrong with the parenting; and, than, taking additional matters to help him be developed as a person; that's what it appears from the surface; he looks like an ok young man, so, must have just been very awkward social behavior; he was open, if someone spoken to him; this was both a case of messed up parenting and a messed up and egotistical society training children to grow up egotistical; clearly, he needed to feel a sense of belonging; of course women and girls get it, but men could used it at times too; but, the gut reaction is probably going to be just the opposite.

So are you saying he was likely a product of an egotistical, condescending society he couldn't fit in or conform to?

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if only no one in your dreadful nation had guns

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@empressofdread said:

RIP. This needs to be taken seriously now, IDK how school kids are getting hands on automatic fire.

It's semi-automatic. Not an assault rifle, by definition.

ok.

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#62  Edited By Outside_85

'Nothing we can do.' Says the only nation where mass shootings are a regular occurrence.

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i_like_swords

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@i_like_swords: So let's just give every student in America a pistol and an Assault rifle and let them duke it out with the lunatics. Cause that makes perfect sense.

Is it often that you strawman other people's arguments, or is today just for fun?

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@i_like_swords:

Is it often that you strawman other people's arguments

Except i didn't straw man your argument at all. You clearly said that asking people to defend themselves regardless of age isn't unreasonable. Which would mean that they use weaponry in order to defend themselves.

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@boschepg said:
@streak619 said:

@boschepg: does it matter? He had a gun, that's all that does matter

it matters when 95% of all gun violence happen with hand guns. your basic gun that you can buy anywhere. assault rifles you can make a case for restrictions

You can make a case for restricting pretty much anything. How about this idea. Restrict the amount of ammo you are allowed to have in your home. A single clip is more than enough to protect yourself and you can only buy new bullets when the previous ones are confirmed as being shot. You would also have to report any bullet you shot.

No more 'Muricans shooting hundreds of bullets in their back yard. No more youtube dimwits playing with guns like they are just another one of their toys. This teaches kids in America that guns are just toys. You can't have that. This is why they all actually contemplate murdering all of their bullies with guns.

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@all-father:

You clearly said that asking people to defend themselves regardless of age isn't unreasonable.

Yes. You suggested that people should rely solely on a "system," by which you mean the police force, for their self-defence. I found that quite silly considering the police do not actively patrol schools and can only turn up once 17 people have been shot.

Which would mean that they use weaponry in order to defend themselves.

In some cases, responsible individuals should have access to weapons to defend themselves, sure. You extrapolated what I said to mean "lets give handguns and assault rifles to all the children." Your reading comprehension is nobody else's problem. I didn't even mention assault rifles, which are fully automatic, so I'm assuming you're just throwing big words around you don't fully understand.

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READING THE NEWS.

He previously brought guns to school and threatened others. Why on earth was he not arrested?

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@i_like_swords:

You suggested that people should rely solely on a "system," by which you mean the police force, for their self-defence.

Yes. I suggested that for people who are incapable of self defense.

In some cases, responsible individuals should have access to weapons to defend themselves, sure.

Who would these responsible individuals be? 16 year old students?

Your reading comprehension is nobody else's problem.

Funny coming from you.

I didn't even mention assault rifles, which are fully automatic

I didn't narrow it down to assault rifles, used it as an example.

so I'm assuming you're just throwing big words around you don't fully understand.

And I'm pretty sure you do.

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i_like_swords

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#69  Edited By i_like_swords

@all-father:

Yes. I suggested that for people who are incapable of self defense.

Well, clearly, that isn't working out so well.

Who would these responsible individuals be? 16 year old students?

School faculty, and I also think hiring security wouldn't be such a bad idea. I also think giving kids some basic self defence training would be a pretty good idea.

If we're going to force children to go these schools by law, force them to clump up together in rooms like fish in a barrel, and take all the mental health burdens that come from such an unhealthy, artificial environment, then surely, surely the least you could do is offer some kind of protection to them for when someone does lose their mind and brings a gun to school.

Currently there is very little to deter someone , who is sufficiently motivated, from entering a school and opening fire. There's no guarantee of meeting resistance inside and the police will take too long to arrive. More to the point, when the time comes, there is no way for these people to defend themselves.

Funny coming from you.

I didn't narrow it down to assault rifles, used it as an example.

And I'm pretty sure you do.

Gee whizz, look at all this bitching. You must really care about the kids.

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@i_like_swords:

School faculty, and I also think hiring security wouldn't be such a bad idea. I also think giving kids some basic self defence training would be a pretty good idea.

So now school faculty has to be combat ready just to avoid common sense gun laws in 'Murica. Seriously, the most advanced country in the world yet every other country still sees you the village idiot. Your kids are no different than kids that get born around the world. The only major difference is that guns in America are too easy to access and you have basically limitless ammo.

Currently there is very little to deter someone , who is sufficiently motivated, from entering a school and opening fire.

Another thing you should look into as a society. The motivation usually comes from a lot of bullying that is glorified in pop culture. Sure, in the end the "victim" of the movie gets the girl. But the bullies are always the "cool, rich guys".

And, the worst part comes directly from people like you who claim that you should "protect yourself". If you are small and weak, and the society refuses to help you, naturally, using a firearm is your only logical choice.

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@revan- said:

@chimeroid: Because “muh gun rights”

They cling on to a constitution that was written hundreds of years ago and they refuse to see that they have already changed so much about it... It is ridiculous. Not to mention that it is utterly non-democratic to not restrict guns as over 80% of people WANT gun laws. But in 'Murica, bribing politicians is legal. They call it "lobbying" and NRA does a lot of it.

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@revan- said:

@chimeroid: Because “muh gun rights”

They cling on to a constitution that was written hundreds of years ago and they refuse to see that they have already changed so much about it... It is ridiculous. Not to mention that it is utterly non-democratic to not restrict guns as over 80% of people WANT gun laws. But in 'Murica, bribing politicians is legal. They call it "lobbying" and NRA does a lot of it.

It's always sad to see some people arguing that their right to bear arms will outweigh the rights of children to attend school without being murdered while there.

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#75  Edited By i_like_swords

@chimeroid:

So now school faculty has to be combat ready just to avoid common sense gun laws in 'Murica.

Shootings of this type and scale are exceedingly rare, so in 99% of cases no, they actually don't need to be combat ready. But since school shootings are increasing rapidly in the space of a few short years, why not be ready? Would you seriously prefer if nobody in that school had even just a handgun to fend off the attacker?

Seriously, the most advanced country in the world yet every other country still sees you the village idiot. Your kids are no different than kids that get born around the world. The only major difference is that guns in America are too easy to access and you have basically limitless ammo.

I'm sort of split on the issue, because in countries like the UK we have very little gun crime, so I see no reason to introduce more guns into the country. But America does have millions of guns, and they are extremely easy to obtain (illegally as well, for the record), so while I have no issues with having people's backgrounds and mental health screened thoroughly before they can purchase a gun, I don't see why it makes sense to take guns out of the hands of the other 99% of people who would never use them for crime. All that does is leave the 99% defenceless, meanwhile the 1% will find a gun one way or another and attack people with it.

Also, I'd need to have a fresher look, but I'm pretty sure there are some rather revealing statistics about the proportion of gun crime in states with varying levels of gun control. That is to say, gun crime increases in proportion to all crime, and states with higher levels of gun control can end up having more gun crime than states with less gun control. As the saying goes, guns do not kill people, the psychopaths wielding them kill people.

Another thing you should look into as a society. The motivation usually comes from a lot of bullying that is glorified in pop culture. Sure, in the end the "victim" of the movie gets the girl. But the bullies are always the "cool, rich guys".

I like how you think you've cracked the code for why statistically anomalous school shootings happen. This kid just came off as mentally unwell, from the reports I've read.

And, the worst part comes directly from people like you who claim that you should "protect yourself". If you are small and weak, and the society refuses to help you, naturally, using a firearm is your only logical choice.

As soon as someone starts with "people like you" in a debate, it's always a good time to recognise you're probably talking to a [fill in the blank]. I think everyone should protect themselves and others, regardless of what size you are. Size doesn't even matter when we're talking about someone wielding a firearm, so I'm not sure why you think I'm singling out small people. If you seriously think that equates to some form of bullying, I can't help you.

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@outside_85: They usually apply a lot of strawman arguments to make it seem like they are the heroes. The single worst for me is "kids should protect themselves, if they only had guns"...

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#77  Edited By Outside_85

@chimeroid said:

@outside_85: They usually apply a lot of strawman arguments to make it seem like they are the heroes. The single worst for me is "kids should protect themselves, if they only had guns"...

In which case all that will happen is that shootings at schools will become a weekly happening, since then every childish argument and fight will potentially involve guns.

Edit scratch that: there's been 18 shootings at schools already in 2018 already, so let me upgrade it to 'daily'.

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#78  Edited By Chimeroid

@i_like_swords: Shootings of this type and scale are exceedingly rare,

Except that they are not. In america you have over 1 shooting every week. It is telling of your mental status that you believe that is "exceedingly rare"

Would you seriously prefer if nobody in that school had even just a handgun to fend off the attacker?

I would seriously prefer if the law was there to protect them. This kid already came to the school carrying a gun before. And kids in the school knew him to be a threat. Yet, nothing was done. What you are trying to do is just shift the blame from the institutions to the victims.

That is to say, gun crime increases in proportion to all crime, and states with higher levels of gun control can end up having more gun crime than states with less gun control.

If you want to speak of statistics, just look at Australia, they had the exact same issue with random shootings you do. Yet, they banned guns and they had 0 (ZERO) since then. Seems like a VERY TELLING statistic. "Higher levels of gun control" amount to almost nothing even in those states as even those states have more guns per citizen than almost any other country in the world.

As soon as someone starts with "people like you" in a debate, it's always a good time to recognise you're probably talking to a [fill in the blank]. I think everyone should protect themselves and others, regardless of what size you are. Size doesn't even matter when we're talking about someone wielding a firearm

Believe it or not, "people like you" followed by an explanation is a legitimate argument. You are here resorting to name calling even if you called me a "fill in a blank" instead of using a "mean word". I instantly explained what i meant by saying "people like you" i meant people who claim that kids should protect themselves. Humans have evolved past that point tens of thousands of years ago. You should protect the kids and not let them fend for themselves.

Not everyone CAN protect themselves. Size does matter in highschool. If you are scrawny and weak there is NOTHING you can do to protect yourself. And even training will not help as, at that age, genetics will still dominate the school. If you are 5 foot nothing and your bully is over 6 feet tall and has 50 pounds on you + the willingness to hurt you. You will be bullied. It is ridiculous how poor of an argument you are willing to make just to protect guns.

Size doesn't even matter when we're talking about someone wielding a firearm

Exactly. So, if you are small and scrawny, and get beaten up every day, what will you do? you go to your parents, but they are like you and tell you "protect yourself". Then you go to the principal and he is like you and he tells you "protect yourself, stand up to the bully". And when you realize you cannot protect yourself you get an equalizer of the force. Make the "size not matter" and shoot the bastard.. Of course, this is not the only, or even the main reason these happen. But, it is one of the causes. Yet another one the society of US refuses to handle.

Kids are dying and you refuse to change anything to help them.

Furthermore, you are the only country in the world with this issue, and there is only ONE big difference between you and the rest of the civilized world. And you refuse to even contemplate or try out the idea that worked PERFECTLY for a country pretty much the same as yours.

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@chimeroid said:

@outside_85: They usually apply a lot of strawman arguments to make it seem like they are the heroes. The single worst for me is "kids should protect themselves, if they only had guns"...

In which case all that will happen is that shootings at schools will become a weekly happening, since then every childish argument and fight will potentially involve guns.

Actually, school shootings are already more common than "weekly happenings" Currently, US is on 8 school shootings after 7 weeks of 2018.

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@outside_85: Yeah, but "only" 8 of those were actually school shootings. You know, with dead kids. Which apparently, for "PEOPLE LIKE ILS" (which is the only way i will be tagging him from now on btw), is not cause for change. Well, apart for the fact that kids and teachers should be combat ready.

because it's better to have a battlefield in school than take away the guns...

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@outside_85: Yeah, but "only" 8 of those were actually school shootings. You know, with dead kids. Which apparently, for "PEOPLE LIKE ILS" (which is the only way i will be tagging him from now on btw), is not cause for change. Well, apart for the fact that kids and teachers should be combat ready.

because it's better to have a battlefield in school than take away the guns...

True, but then again, discharging guns at a school probably isn't something that calms anyone's nerves.

Well who knows, maybe he gets mugged by ants where he lives?

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@outside_85: Now, i am not researching this, but talking off the top of my head, didn't 2016 set the record with mass shootings? Something like over 1 shooting a day, seems it was over 400 mass shootings.

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@outside_85: Now, i am not researching this, but talking off the top of my head, didn't 2016 set the record with mass shootings? Something like over 1 shooting a day, seems it was over 400 mass shootings.

I believe you are right about that. If the parameter is that there were over 400 events where 3 or more people were shot (not necessarily killed).

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@outside_85:Well, i don't think we should avoid counting less than effective shooters. They still point to the problem, even if they were incapable of carrying out their plans.

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@ldm said:

@streak619: You are one of the few with common sense

Why thank you.

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And here we go again . . .

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It almost seems like we are going through the Motions with this.

We Come In The Thread... We Say Rest In Peace... Debates On Guns And Freedom To Have Guns Occurs... Life Goes On... Except For The Ones Who Lost Their Lives In School Shootings.

It's really really Sad.

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@dshipp17 said:

Florida has the most loss gun regulations in the country; so bad that children have to take the shoulder over lawmakers' failure couple with refusal to separate party affiliation from commonsense; RIP to those 17 unfortunate children. And, it seems as if the 19 year old responsible was the product of at least social isolation until he could be expelled from school; wouldn't just simply try making the boy feel more welcome, as an alternative to just expelling him from school; one start was making him feel more welcome; after that, proactively seeing what was wrong with the parenting; and, than, taking additional matters to help him be developed as a person; that's what it appears from the surface; he looks like an ok young man, so, must have just been very awkward social behavior; he was open, if someone spoken to him; this was both a case of messed up parenting and a messed up and egotistical society training children to grow up egotistical; clearly, he needed to feel a sense of belonging; of course women and girls get it, but men could used it at times too; but, the gut reaction is probably going to be just the opposite.

So are you saying he was likely a product of an egotistical, condescending society he couldn't fit in or conform to?

That's the only thing that you could understand from the post? You did get one of the secondary messages, though; the primary message was 'product of social isolation'. Another secondary message, coming up with creative ways to make the boy feel welcomed and that he could fit in.

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It almost seems like we are going through the Motions with this.

We Come In The Thread... We Say Rest In Peace... Debates On Guns And Freedom To Have Guns Occurs... Life Goes On... Except For The Ones Who Lost Their Lives In School Shootings.

It's really really Sad.

And it will continue to be the same as long as bribery is allowed in the States under the pretence of Lobbying. All of the current surveys show that the majority of people in the US want more regulations regarding weapons.

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Very tragic, it's a damn shame that people can think this way and commit such a vile act. My heart goes out to all of those affected.

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@chimeroid said:
@king_saturn said:

It almost seems like we are going through the Motions with this.

We Come In The Thread... We Say Rest In Peace... Debates On Guns And Freedom To Have Guns Occurs... Life Goes On... Except For The Ones Who Lost Their Lives In School Shootings.

It's really really Sad.

And it will continue to be the same as long as bribery is allowed in the States under the pretence of Lobbying. All of the current surveys show that the majority of people in the US want more regulations regarding weapons.

The majority of the 15% of Americans surveyed.

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We're literally only a month and a half in to 2018. The fact that this is the worst of like 10 school shootings, or something like that, in a month and a half, is itself somewhat ridiculous. That just makes your statements one of the worst things I heard all day.
I'm not "attacking" you for that or anything. I'm just saying...that statement kind of ruined my morning. I'm not saying it's your fault for pointing that out. But damn, what a shit thing to think about.

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That gun free zone wasn't all that gun free was it?

RIP to all the students and faculty, and their families, sad time.

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@chimeroid said:
@king_saturn said:

It almost seems like we are going through the Motions with this.

We Come In The Thread... We Say Rest In Peace... Debates On Guns And Freedom To Have Guns Occurs... Life Goes On... Except For The Ones Who Lost Their Lives In School Shootings.

It's really really Sad.

And it will continue to be the same as long as bribery is allowed in the States under the pretence of Lobbying. All of the current surveys show that the majority of people in the US want more regulations regarding weapons.

The majority of the 15% of Americans surveyed.

And you are insinuating its not an accurate portrayal of what Americans want?

If the sample size and sampling methods are done right, a tiny percentage can be representative of the population.

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Vertigo-

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#96 Vertigo-  Online

Those poor families. Condolences to them all

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deactivated-5a93651393625

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@oopsislipped said:
@chimeroid said:
@king_saturn said:

It almost seems like we are going through the Motions with this.

We Come In The Thread... We Say Rest In Peace... Debates On Guns And Freedom To Have Guns Occurs... Life Goes On... Except For The Ones Who Lost Their Lives In School Shootings.

It's really really Sad.

And it will continue to be the same as long as bribery is allowed in the States under the pretence of Lobbying. All of the current surveys show that the majority of people in the US want more regulations regarding weapons.

The majority of the 15% of Americans surveyed.

And you are insinuating its not an accurate portrayal of what Americans want?

If the sample size and sampling methods are done right, a tiny percentage can be representative of the population.

Yes.

Exactly but they aren't done right.

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Chimeroid

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@oopsislipped: You can't just throw them away either, at least not without a study that disproves the survey.

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@godsaveusall said:
@laiks stake said:

If the 17 had guns, they would be alive by now.

This, so much this!

Or if the 19 year old didn't have a gun. Giving 18 teenagers guns is just asking for a mass homicide shoot out right on campus, and would end up with a lot more casualties then just 17 kids, god forbid.

No it wouldn't. It would give kids something to fight back with instead of hiding behind desk praying not to be next. How can you seriously say that you wouldn't want the kids in this scenario to have a gun? Do you prefer them to be helpless to a monster?

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#100  Edited By HigherPower

@cable_extreme: You can't quench a fire with more fire. Giving every teen a gun would just increase the chances of misuse and tragedies.