SPOILER: Avengers Endgame - My Prediction, What Happened and What's Not + The Unexpected

The movie did very well to subvert expectations

This movie had the perfect balance of things I expected to happen, happening. And things happening that I never thought would happen.

Things I expected would happened, that did happen:

• Tony dying (didn't stop me from bawling my eyes out).
• Time-travel.
• Tony having a daughter.

Things I never thought would happen, that ended up happening:

• Black Widow dying.
• Thanos dying in the first act.
• Gamora and Vision NOT returning was a shocker for me.

There are numerous other things, but those are the major ones.

This movie sounds like straight dogshit, holy fuck.

Time travel, fat Thor, old Cap, Hulk rendered as a joke still and the romance with Black Widow is written out of existence apparently, and Tony dies lol.

Surprised they didn’t go the full mile and have Coulson walk out from a portal with a laser gun and say “I’m back” with Loki having an arm around him.

@vulkanian: it was. They are in denial. Give it time to sink in. We will reap the rewards with the future DC films

@vulkanian: it's a great film, you're just a closet DCEU Stan.

DCEU butt hurt fanboys show up again.

@vulkanian: It really isn't. The movie had its flaws, definitely. But not even close to "dogshit".

I wouldn't say the movie is dogshit, but it's a massive disappointment for me.

For starters, if you're a Thor fan, do yourself a favour and don't see this movie.

@xyzen: I don’t give a shit about the DCEU. If anything I hate it because it’s garbage. The last DCEU movie I saw willingly was Wonder Woman, which was ok at best. I was forced to watch JL and I’ve blocked most of it from my mind thankfully.

Infinity War was amazing, and Endgame looks to undo it. I don’t even know where to start.

The time travel shit alone causes so many paradoxes and plot holes. Taking the past Infinity stones invalidates so many movies and characters. Nebula killing her past self somehow doesn’t erase her from time and space with the paradox it makes, Cap going back to Peggy and basically gives the finger to Bucky and Tony’s parents even though he knows where they are and how to save them, and that’s just the tip of the iceberg.

Every character arc is ruined. Thor abandons his people, Cap abandons everyone, Tony dies in the most unfulfilling way possible, Gamora stays dead, Natasha and Bruce have no closure before she dies too, and Hulk is still a meme.

@vulkanian:

Did you really watched the movie or you just describe it by only spoilers?

@vulkanian: that sounds like you haven't seen the movie.

Cap has always been overrated he's selfish and far from what a leader should be.

Thor will have a 4th movie.

And Tony went out like a boss.

can't wait for it on Netflix or regular tv

Wait...I knew Natasha died to get the soul stone, but I thought Clint sacrificed her. How can her life be traded for the soul stone if she sacrificed herself??? I'm pretty sure IW is clear that you need to sacrifice something you truly love in order to get the soul stone.

Unless the point was to show that Natasha loved herself the most???

That's not what i'm getting at though. In IW Redskull told Thanos that HE had to sacrifice the thing he loved most. From that I understand BW sacrificed herself in exchange for the soul stone, but that's not the same as sacrificing something YOU love.

Only way it makes sense is if BW loves herself the most (kind of), or if CLINT sacrificed her because he loves her....more than his family???

I feel like the Russo brothers don't like the Hulk and they just see him an unimportant character. Meanwhile, they wank the hell out of Cap. Hulk is currently the weakest avenger in MCU. The solution now is Marvel should just leave the hulk alone and don't touch his movies. He's been hated by the Russo bros, i guess. His best showing was Hulk 2008!

Hulk didn't even really fight alone with the Avengers that much while the rest were kicking ass, not to talk of Hulk not having his revenge against thanos. SMH!!. Marvel has failed to do Hulk justice. I guess this is the fall of Hulk

@buttersdaman000: small plot holes are inevitable just let them be.

That's not a small plot hole though

@buttersdaman000: it is. It's not ground breaking. She made a sacrifice that's all that matters

I'm not trying to tell you how to feel about the plot hole, nor am I saying you're wrong for not caring about the writing issues. Some people simply don't care, and that's fine. There are evident, glaring plot holes in plenty movies that I like, but i'm not going to outright deny their existence, or minimize it just to defend the movie. Natasha sacrificing herself to get the stone is a glaring plot hole. IW, the movie Endgame directly follows, literally established the method for getting the stone. Now, that method was ignored. It's a plot hole. And it's glaring because they obviously only did it because they didn't want an Avenger to "kill" a loved one.

Lol people judging an entire movie from a few bullet points

More like the entire plot being on reddit

So if CM is that powerful then why didn't she nuke Thanos and his army Superman in JL style?

I wasn’t a fan of there being no Ultron, no Loki, no Phil Coulson/Maria Hill etc, no closure between Natasha and Bruce, the Captain Marvel stuff wasn’t anywhere as bad as her movie but her character beating up Thanos alone was semi annoying. All the female characters randomly showing up right behind Captain Marvel was a bit much but my GF liked it so I can understand it. I actually didn’t mind Steve going back and getting back to Peggie. I’m seeing it again Saturday so we’ll see what I like more the second time around or less.

@buttersdaman000: Technically Hawkeye killed Nat. He let her arm go deliberately and because of that she fell and died. It doesn't matter that she demanded it, he was still making the sacrifice. With Clint's whole family being dead at that point his best friend Nat was easily the person he cared about most so there is absolutely no plot hole here. Did you even watch the movie or do you draw conclusions from leaks you read?

No, I haven't watched the movie. I've read the spoilers. I made that pretty clear in my first post where I asked someone to explain the scene.

I don't think your explanation changes anything though. It's still a plot hole for the reasons I stated. Killing Nat on a "technicality" after she already sacrificed herself doesn't fulfill the requirements IW set. It also doesn't make sense for Hawkeye to value Natasha over his family just because they were snapped, especially since he's only on the mission to get them back.

It honestly sounds like they didn't want an Avenger to actually sacrifice someone so they changed the rules they set. Why set those rules if they knew they were gonna undermine them??

@buttersdaman000: you right but it happened nothing we can do it about it now

@buttersdaman000: actually the way red skull says it is, "The stone requires a sacrifice, you have to lose that which you love, a soul for a soul". More or less to that affect, so Black widow is making the sacrifice and Clint is losing that which he loves, he never explicitly states that one character has to be the one to throw the other into the abyss, that's just how Thanos does it.

@medulaoblaganda: Hulk is currently the weakest avenger in MCU

Sorry but i don't agree with this. He's above non cloaked Thor and non-binary Carol. Only one's truly above him are Thanos and Binary Carol in every way. That isn't any bad.

People really seem to dislike Hulk being put down by Thanos. Yes, i agree it was done poorly, and he went down way too fast. It should have been, the fight, like two titans clashing, destroying everything in their way and fighting for like minutes(in-universe) before Thanos should put Hulk down, physically. But still, it isn't any bad showing for him when you take the fact that the only hero could could sort of face-tank any of Thanos's hits was Carol and only her.

Also, if you look into the Thanos and Hulk fight, you'll see as soon as Thanos overpowered Hulk's arms, Hulk was visibly stunned. After he got hit couple times and couldn't land any hits, he seemed completely taken aback and shocked. He appeared way slower in combat and movements compared to how he was in AOU and Ragnarok, and even when he started the battle. I take it as Hulk, encountering someone truly superior to him for the first time in his, someone who could overpower him against his strength, without any fancy powerups/tricks used, sent him into a deep mental shock. He was so taken aback he couldn't even think about whether or how to continue in the fight next or think about what happened in the first place! Also, without the ship he wouldn't had made into any planet, so it would only make sense he wouldn't go much hard in battle that would endanger the safety of his only transport. He was also not pissed off like in AOU and near arena fight end. Hulk's always shown to be super strong and way more durable than when not.

Think of how the fight went like this - You are the smartest student in your school, have been dominating inter-schools competitions ever since you knew yourself. Suddenly, a guy/gal who you never heard of in your career came out of nowhere and started out-answering you in a competition back to back. The very first emotion you'll encounter will be shock, followed by a surge of nervousness and you wouldn't want to be shown as vulnerable in front of people/friend, not wanting your title(smartest in this case) to be challenged or getting dethroned.

This is what happened with Hulk. The shock and maybe the nervousness could have messed up his fighting intent/battle instinct. Thanos took advantage, targeted pressure points, and KOed him.

Hulk took thousands feet high free-fall, Surtur's throw, Chitauri's tessaract weapons, etc. without being KOed except first one. An angry Hulk is still a force to be reckoned with and wouldn't go down like a pimp against Thanos. He would still wreck Thor(no cloak), Carol(no Binary) and others are basically glass canon whom he could always blitz. I even think he would still be a good match for Carol provided Carol doesn't go blitz route. He gets his hands on her and he'll hammer her. Winning is different story but Hulk isn't weak.

Although, Russo did mess up Hulk bad in IW, no denying it. Look at Thor in endgame, he's gotten way worse treatment. People who thought of him as a joke in Ragnarok, i can't even think how'll they describe him.

All we fans could do is take bits and bits out of instances and try to find and create a believable and valid excuse for our favorite characters low showings. In the end, it's just like a head canon.

@thegodblast: Russo brother version of hulk is utter bullshit. Why would Hulk be stunned for seeing someone superior to him in everyday? Hulk doesn't care and doesn't give up in battle and there's nothing stopping him from getting angry. Its just that the Russo brothers don't know how hulk strength works. The more he fight the stronger he gets. When he fights, he is also angry and that leads to strength increase for the hulk. the hulk had a lot of time to increase his strength automatically while been angry. Joss Whedon knows better than the Russo brothers easily in terms of Hulk portrayal. But i understand the Russo brothers want to show how strong Thanos really is and want to introduce him to be a huge threat, but they shouldn't have made Hulk fight Thanos in the beginning of Infinity war, they should made him fight convus claive and others. Reserve his battle against thanos in Endgame. But nah, MCU cheated Hulk.

Overall, Hulks feats before Endgame still holds a lot.

@medulaoblaganda: Well as i said, all we could do is speculate. I agree Hulk shouldn't be shocked from something. In-fact, he should smile, get even more pissed off and go even harder. But the MCU is just not like that. My reasoning was just sort of an excuse for Hulk's lowest showing. It did appear to me he was shocked though, in the movie.

Around 0:24 mark, Hulk shows shock. Sort of like - HEY WHAT!

Plus after getting hit, combat speed slows down. Also, this isn't how Hulk fights. Re-watching Avenger movies and Ragnarok and Hulk fights more effectively there, or should i say, with a lot more maneuverability, rage and passion. He seems to lack all that here. Here he seems very...limited and constrained in the fight style! I don't know if it's just me.

@thegodblast: I understand MCU Hulk is different from his comic counterpart. Lets just say in this universe, hulk is less strong than his canon 616 universe. MCU made him inconsistent in terms of his fighting style. Its like all the training he learnt from Valkyrie is totally gone. Russo brothers did hulk dirty real bad. Where was the madder he get the stronger he get? All disappeared? MCU hulk doesn't have limitless strength and doesn't get stronger the madder he get. He doesn't even have much healing factor if that's the case. Its funny how the girls in Endgame did most of the job against Thanos when it should have been mainly Thor and Hulk against Thanos. I don't know why they didn't choose that route.

@medulaoblaganda:

inconsistent in terms of his fighting style

True. I agree. Hulk from IW seems totally different from Ragnarok and before. Ragnarok seemed liked a natural progression, evolving fight style as more gladiator based, more ruthless, more destructive.

all the training he learnt from Valkyrie is totally gone

I'm a little mad about this one too. Undid all his Ragnarok training. It was a perfect mix between a trained gladiator style and Hulk's own rage fueled animal like style. IW seemed like Luke Cage fighting just stronger. Where's all the bull-rush/slam/kick/primal action?!

the madder he get the stronger he get? All disappeared?

Although never clearly stated, it was implied. In TIH, he overpowered Abomination after getting pissed and possibly getting stronger. Same in Ragnarok. All the pressure built up blew off and he wrecked Thor with a single hand.

Again, gone in IW. Though could be attributed to Thanos fast knock down, targeting specific weak point and not giving Hulk enough time to get angry/recover. Never clearly stated either.

He doesn't even have much healing factor if that's the case

I think he does. In Avengers, he was dropping blood and badly bruised after getting under Chitauri heavy firpower. Seemed totally healed when he saved Tony from crashing.

Besides this he never bled. So hard to tell if HF is really there or not. Aside from getting pierced by Abom which i don't seem to recall anything about.

Its funny how the girls in Endgame did most of the job against Thanos when it should have been mainly Thor and Hulk against Thanos. I don't know why they didn't choose that route.

Not against females heroes in MCU or anything, but Endgame should have been about the OG6. Thor and Hulk should have had a epic battle against Thanos, Thor should have went full God of Storms against him dropping huge bolts and stuff on him and Hulk should have went full mad post Nat death. But nothing happened. Thor jobbed the hardest in his whole MCU career!

Nat was first of the female heroes in MCU and she JUST DIES!? What!!? Is this how you treat your character.

Only reason i see Carol and Wanda getting their moments that put Thor and Hulk to shame is pushing for a more female dominant lead and maybe to appease targeted audience/public in general. Some people are too loud for Marvel not having strong female lead which don't get overshadowed by males. This would shut them up but intently or not, messed up Hulk and Thor way worse!

@thegodblast: This just sums it up that the Russo brothers are just overrated. They've clearly shown that they don't give a damn about Thor and Hulk . How can you not pay respect to these characters and make them important in the sense that they fight Thanos head on? Instead they made Russoforce captain america to fight Thanos. Fat Thor? What the hell was that? Lmao!!. Joss Whedon would have done a better job than the Russo brothers in my opinion

@medulaoblaganda: Well i love TWS and like CW. Both were good. Endgame though...

Joss Whedon would have done a better job

Please no. Then IM would have 1v1 Thanos and would have him cornered. And Thor would have been sidelined.

It's a disaster I can say that.

@thegodblast: What TWS and CW,also IM?

@buttersdaman000: He doesn't value Nat over his family. As you haven't seen the movie you should be aware that Clint's family is already dead for 5 years at the point he sacrifices Nat. So basically you are implying that someone who lost the person he loved the most could never attain the soul stone, that makes no sense.

Just imagine Thanos would have had a third daughter whom he loved even more than Gamora but that daughter died prior to the events of Infinity War. So according to your logic when Thanos sacrificed Gamora Red Skull would have told him: "sorry bro, but there was one dead person who you loved more than Gamora so your sacrifice won't be accepted by the soul stone". That's ridiculous. I think you are nitpicking here.

@medulaoblaganda: Captain America The Winter Soldier, Captain America Civil War, Iron Man

I just said I read the spoilers for the entire movie. Do you honestly think something that important to the plot was just left out?? You said that since Clints family is dead, Nat is the thing he values most. Now you're trying to backtrack because you know that doesn't make sense. Post just don't disappear. However, another user cleared up the requirements for me. It doesn't take the sacrifice of someone you love the "most", just someone you love. So, I was wrong there. However, the concept of sacrifice is clearly something they stretched and it remains a plot hole.

Not nitpicking. A nitpick would be me complaining that battles don't last long enough. That's inconsequential to the structure of the plot. However, the acquirement of the soul stone is a big plot point, and they clearly broke rules they established in the previous movie. The rules say you have to sacrifice something you love in exchange for a soul, not allow someone to sacrifice themselves for you.

@mrclarky1 said:

Gotcha, but you understand how that's a cop out, right?

@buttersdaman000: I didn't remember that correctly, but the way it plays out now pushes your plot hole theory even better aside. And it isn't a cop-out, too. As mrclarky1 correctly stated in his post the Red Skull never mentioned that the one who receives the stone must sacrifice the one he loves, he just has to lose that person. So actually Nat dying by falling from that cliff and Clint getting the stone is perfectly in line with the rules set in Infinity War. No plot hole, not even a cop-out.

@chicago_bastard:

It's not. I've already explained why. You're just playing with semantics, trying to twist the meaning to defend the movie. At face value, with how EVERYONE thought it worked before Endgame, you had to sacrifice someone to acquire the stone. The movie doesn't attempt to show that there were other methods, it "sticks" to the established one but cops out and ignores the rules. Plot hole and a cop out clearly.

I wonder if Steve knew that Clint was referring to Red Skull when Clint says he had to talk to a ''floating red guy'' or whatever he referred to him as, obviously we know Steve will realize its Red Skull when he returned the stones himself.

@buttersdaman000: If everyone thought so then everyone was wrong, but I'm pretty sure that you are not in the position to speak for everybody. The movie didn't attempt to show other methods cause there was literally only one time we saw Vormir beforehand and that was when Thanos and Gamora were there. Of course Thanos had to throw her down the cliff himself because she hated him and thus would never have jumped down deliberately for him to get the stone. That led you to believe that that's the only way but the rules as stated by the Red Skull clearly say something different so it's not a plot hole. "In order to take the stone you must lose that what you love, a soul for a soul." This is the rule set by the Red Skull in Infinity War, if you and everyone assumed that not only losing someone but killing him was necessary then you were plain wrong, simple as that.

@buttersdaman000: You're going way out of your way to force a plot-hole into this scene. Nowhere in IW is it stated that YOU have to make the sacrifice. Just that you must lose someone you love. Just because YOU made an assumption about the rules that turned out to be false, doesn't mean you can stomp your feet and cry "Plot hole!!!"

@buttersdaman000: His family was dead so he couldn't sacrifice them. He literally "let's go" of her in the movie. That's the him sacrificing what he loves most part.

Sooo....Did the movie get better/worse/stalemate the 2nd time?

Maybe in a future movie we'll get closure with Bruce and Nat. I personally wished for MCU to intertwine Fox(Logan) into this movie...at least team cameos when all the heroes were teleporting in to fight Thanos.

I felt the movie was up to the hype! A packed and great crowd clapping, cheering, crying, laughing definitely amped it for me.

??

@cosmic_reign: some questions were answered the second time around for me. I definitely liked it more but some miscues were glaring the second time around, too.

Some things that bugged me:

- Iron Man built a gauntlet that could house the infinity stones, which Thanos had to seek from the Dwarves of Ndvildlr or however you spell it

- The time travel shenanigans not really adding up, Sharon Carter, this timeline thanks to the ending being just not really making sense

- Thor giving Asgard to valkyrie was stupid imo

Idk there’s some other stuff but those 3 are the most prevalent.