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#51 Posted by Squalleon (9994 posts) - - Show Bio

@squalleon: as Darkseid died huge power erupted out of him, that's the power/spirits of new gods because in next issue heroes will become fused with new gods. As for how Anti Monitor fused Black racer with flash isn't explained but Anti Monitor did know that Darkseid would bring Black Racer to the fight, so he would've prepared for it.

Again, you are assuming stuff.

As you saw THREE Super-heroes became "Gods" and none due to Darkseid. So please wait until it happens before you assume something.

And even that doesn't explain how "Death" obeys Darkseid now...

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#52 Posted by _ANDY_CAN (381 posts) - - Show Bio

Still waiting for Alexander Luthor jr.

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#53 Posted by joaoanjos (88 posts) - - Show Bio

It's just me or WW is looking exactly like Kiera Knightley?

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#54 Posted by StMichalofWilson (5631 posts) - - Show Bio

this event just keeps getting better

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#55 Posted by Sly_141 (3216 posts) - - Show Bio

@squalleon: I don't know if the ALE is equation anymore, the Life Equation doesn't appear to be. They'll probably clear it up later.

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#56 Posted by Zeeguy91 (1625 posts) - - Show Bio

@zeeguy91 said:

That's not the same as deus ex machina. Deus ex machina implies that a development comes completely out of left field without any build up at all. Johns literally spent the whole issue building up to the reveal that Anti-Monitor had power of the anti-life equation.

Again, that doesn't explain how he fuses Flash with Black Racer. Controlling Flash, sure, but fusing them? How? Did they danced and I missed it?

The ALE is used to control living beings. He used it to control Flash in order to force him to play host to BR in order to use the latter. I'm assuming that Black Racer in the New 52 is a unique New God in that he is simply an ethereal personification of death. Therefore, he might be able to be placed in corporeal hosts in a way similar to what we saw in this issue.

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#57 Posted by Zeeguy91 (1625 posts) - - Show Bio
@sly_141 said:

@squalleon: I don't know if the ALE is equation anymore, the Life Equation doesn't appear to be. They'll probably clear it up later.

I think it still is. The thing is, though, is that the person who solves the ALE is granted power over the will of others. Hasn't it always been that way?

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#58 Posted by Squalleon (9994 posts) - - Show Bio

@zeeguy91 said:
@squalleon said:
@zeeguy91 said:

That's not the same as deus ex machina. Deus ex machina implies that a development comes completely out of left field without any build up at all. Johns literally spent the whole issue building up to the reveal that Anti-Monitor had power of the anti-life equation.

Again, that doesn't explain how he fuses Flash with Black Racer. Controlling Flash, sure, but fusing them? How? Did they danced and I missed it?

The ALE is used to control living beings. He used it to control Flash in order to force him to play host to BR in order to use the latter. I'm assuming that Black Racer in the New 52 is a unique New God in that he is simply an ethereal personification of death. Therefore, he might be able to be placed in corporeal hosts in a way similar to what we saw in this issue.

The Black Racer isn't a force, he is a New God. He literally fused two beings, by pulling a power out of his....if that's not a Deus ex, I don't know what is.

Again, like others, you are assuming. Which means the story did something wrong.

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#59 Posted by MaZeRaIII (4725 posts) - - Show Bio

@tensor:

I think he was talking about the Gods that power him IMO.

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#60 Posted by SoA (6246 posts) - - Show Bio

fun story but im getting a fear itself vibe from it.

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#62 Posted by cloudzackvincent (1197 posts) - - Show Bio

@squalleon: As far as Darkseid being able to control The Black Racer goes, he has done it before during the ' Our Worlds at War' event.

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#63 Edited by Zeeguy91 (1625 posts) - - Show Bio

@squalleon: (1) I didn't say that BR was a 'force'. I said that he simply might be unique among new gods in that his form isn't necessarily corporeal as the forms of others are. (2) it's still not dues ex machina, you're very much misusing that term. Dues ex machina would be if Brainiac suddenly came in the middle of the fight and killed Darkseid. (3) is it really that unbelievable that the Anti-Monitor—a being with almost undefined cosmic power—would have the power to fuse two beings together? For all we know, it could be an extension of the ALE (forcing beings to literally merge at his command) that'll be touched on next issue. (4) Leaving the readers with some questions doesn't equate to the story doing something wrong. Several of the best stories have done just that. For example, how has nobody ever been able to not guess that Clark Kent is Superman given that his only disguise is a pair of glasses? These are major plot holes that comic fans overlook. So a mere inconsistency in the powers granted by a concept that's been defined and redefined over 40 years to a being whose uppermost limit of power has never really been defined is not really a problem.

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#64 Posted by Sly_141 (3216 posts) - - Show Bio

@zeeguy91: That's what I thought too, but for the New 52 this could have been changed. The origin of the New Gods changed so it is reasonable that the Source has too.

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#65 Posted by entropy_aegis (20855 posts) - - Show Bio

@zeeguy91 said:

@squalleon: (1) I didn't say that BR was a 'force'. I said that he simply might be unique among new gods in that his form isn't necessarily corporeal as the forms of others are. (2) it's still not dues ex machina, you're very much misusing that term. Dues ex machina would be if Brainiac suddenly came in the middle of the fight and killed Darkseid. (3) is it really that unbelievable that the Anti-Monitor—a being with almost undefined cosmic power—would have the power to fuse two beings together? For all we know, it could be an extension of the ALE (forcing beings to literally merge at his command) that'll be touched on next issue. (4) Leaving the readers with some questions doesn't equate to the story doing something wrong. Several of the best stories have done just that. For example, how has nobody ever been able to not guess that Clark Kent is Superman given that his only disguise is a pair of glasses? These are major plot holes that comic fans overlook. So a mere inconsistency in the powers granted by a concept that's been defined and redefined over 40 years to a being whose uppermost limit of power has never really been defined is not really a problem.

How is this any different from Brainiac showing up? Anti-Monitor just randomly became the anti-life equation and used his power to enslave Flash. It's like Batman developing heat vison when he needs,I'm sure "he's Batman" would be just as succinct(sarcasm).

Yes it's unbelievable,he never displayed that power in any incarnation and Black Racer cannot be merged with anyone. It's typical Johns crap,complete disregard for actual history and the concepts,I honestly dont care what he does with cosmic Doomsday aka Anti-Monitor but New Gods are a different matter entirely. Byrne failed when he tried the exact same thing Johns is doing and so will Johns in a few years.

More importantly if he can merge people why not merge himself with Darkseid? or use his power to make Darkseid commit suicide?

Clark Kent's ID is not a plot hole,a plot hole is specific to a particular plot not 75 years of characterization.

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#66 Posted by rickythanos (1570 posts) - - Show Bio

Mobius is gonna be SCARY if he absorbs all that power that Darkseid released.

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#67 Posted by Rubear (4650 posts) - - Show Bio

Joker as... god? Madre dios...

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#68 Edited by Zeeguy91 (1625 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis:

Because Johns spent literally the entire issue building up to the reveal. Deus ex machina is when there is absolutely no build-up and the intervening force/person is completely unrelated to what is currently going on in the story. Otherwise, literally anything that happens in a story could be called deus ex machina. Though it doesn't stop some fans from trying...

Remember that whole Flashpoint deal that happened a few years back? You're forgetting that this is a new continuity. In this continuity, the JL has never even met Anti-Monitor or Black Racer or any of the New Gods save for Darkseid and Orion (the latter only applying to Wonder Woman and Superman). Who's to say they don't have powers they didn't in the previous continuity?

Uh, probably because Darkseid himself is too powerful of an entity to control or merge with anything. The reason Anti-Monitor probably needed to fuse Flash and Black Racer is probably because he couldn't control Black Racer in his pure form, being that they are all New Gods. Also, he couldn't have merged Darkseid to himself because he literally said that he needed Darkseid dead.

Really? Cuz it seems like a plot hole. A really big one. Just because it has been happening for 75+ years doesn't make it not a plot hole. But that's fine. We overlook it because we believe it as part of the story. Honestly, to me, its more unbelievable than Anti-Monitor being able to fuse beings together. The former I can contextualize with real-life experience, the latter I cannot.

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#69 Edited by Zeeguy91 (1625 posts) - - Show Bio

@g-man: I really don't think Johns was hinting that Joker is the Greek god of laughter. Its probably more so just an analogy to show how, like how Gelos haunted Diana's mother, so too does Joker haunt Batman.

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#70 Edited by mysoulz (870 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@squalleon: Exactly right, the Anti Life equation isn't a source of power like an anti Emotional spectrum or part of the Source Wall, it's an equation which Darkseid wants to subjugate all life and free will in the universe. Moreover, the Anti Monitor was never tied to the Anti Life equation, he drew his power from the Anti Matter universe itself and discovered that he could increase his power by destroying positive matter universes and converting that energy into anti matter. This doesn't make sense with Anti Monitor's backstory.

To be fair, the anti-life equation has been portrayed differently in multiple concepts as interpreted from different writers, but Grant Morrison's FC version has the better meaning of it in modern times. I guess Geoff Johns is attempting to change how things works as always.

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#71 Posted by ShiZZmAhh (986 posts) - - Show Bio

Give Lex a helmet because my suspension of disbelief can't come to terms with the fact that he's taking punches to the face from Superman.

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#72 Edited by Lordhuck (105 posts) - - Show Bio

The Joker doesn't' have to be a God.....just favored by one.

The Joker could be Gelos the God of laughter's favorite mortal. That could explain why the Joker can come back from the dead. Gelos is resurrecting him.

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#73 Posted by Lordhuck (105 posts) - - Show Bio

@shizzmahh:

Eh, the Lex's armor produces a force field to protect his head. If that's ever been said on panel or not I think it's implied.

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#74 Posted by Zeeguy91 (1625 posts) - - Show Bio

By the way, Fabok draws a damn fantastic Joker.

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#75 Posted by saoakden (1285 posts) - - Show Bio

I just read the issue. I loved it and was surprised, and I want more! Loving this series & story!

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#76 Posted by KnightofSteel (369 posts) - - Show Bio
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#77 Posted by TDK_1997 (18731 posts) - - Show Bio

This story turned from being something that I highly anticipated and liked to a story where I dont care anymore because of all of the plot devices Johns is using and how silly it all sounds and looks.

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#78 Posted by Chimeroid (9266 posts) - - Show Bio

This would-be hyping of the Joker into something other than a human crackpot is already getting out of hand.

I just think that Batman envisioned Joker as he was thinking about WW story since Joker was his Gelos. Wherever people died there was laughter that followed him. and he hated him for him. That seems pretty clear cut for me.

As far as the issue goes. It was all around the place. I would like it more if it was just a bit more focused on a single event.

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#79 Edited by roaris87 (404 posts) - - Show Bio

I thought this issue was great, I can't wait to see the next one. As for Flash and Black Racer being merged, didn't Anti-Monitor say something about their connection to the Speed Force?

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#80 Posted by AwesomeHobos (156 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd imagine the Black Racer could be something akin to the Specter where he can use a host and if the Anti-Monitor were to put Flash in front of him and force him to submit as a host which I believe it's implied he did then I could believe the fusion because it wouldn't be forcing two characters to be one, it would be one character forced to host a non corporeal new god. And as for the Anti-Life Equation, what I gathered was that it was basically the mathematical equation that gave birth to the Anti-Matter Universe, and that by glimpsing the beginning of that universe the Anti-Monitor now knows the Equation and is irrevocably tied to it. I don't see where that is a huge retcon of any prior history, it seems more just like contextualization to me. I also don't think we should take the quote that the Anti-life equation is in his veins too seriously either cause it could just mean it's something that's really important to him, like when Americans say they bleed red, white, and blue. Let's also all be aware that we are reading comic books where there is a talking rabbit character who's powers are cartoon physics and he gets these from eating carrots. Also can we stop with the Johns hate, we all get that he has really screwed some stuff up, but this stuff is rather brilliant work. You couldn't find too many other stories with this level a threat that are that much better so cut the guy some slack if he hasn't fully explained everything in 4 issues or if there isn't as much characterization as you think there should be, the story isn't over yet.

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#81 Edited by Outside_85 (23518 posts) - - Show Bio

I just think that Batman envisioned Joker as he was thinking about WW story since Joker was his Gelos. Wherever people died there was laughter that followed him. and he hated him for him. That seems pretty clear cut for me.

In a way you are completely right and I suspect that it will be eventually revealed or debunked that it was just overlapping between what was on Batman's mind and Diana's recap.

But with that, you have to consider that Snyder recently did the exact same thing, hint that the Joker was somehow hundreds of years old. To my worried mind, that Johns now follows suit with this, indicated that DC is genuinely pondering whenever or not they want to reveal the Joker has been this supernatural force all along. They are after all willing to make us ponder the possibility.

As for Gelos... I'll be honest, I think that the tale is just a weird bastardization of the mythical Gelos. Diana's tale here makes him as one of the things the old Greeks would have put in Ares' chariot, while the actual Gelos was part of Dionysus' merry band. It just reeks of someone in DC wanting all things regarding laughter and probably clowns to be connected, somehow, to the Joker.

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#82 Edited by jayc1324 (26427 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm a wee bit disappointed in this issue. Don't like evil superman, and don't like the "death". Hopefully that isn't really the end of that character. I would really be disappointed then.

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#83 Posted by Delcar (134 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm happy to found that there's still great comics in DC, Johns is one of the last real writers in dc

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#85 Edited by thecowwasdelirious (1585 posts) - - Show Bio

@squalleon: I think you'll have to wait for Johns to connect everything as the story progresses. A lot of stuff doesn't really make sense yet. He hasn't even given Anti and Darkseid a motive for fighting, which i'm starting to fear he wont really do at all. But again, we'll have to see what happens.

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#86 Posted by Squalleon (9994 posts) - - Show Bio

@squalleon: I think you'll have to wait for Johns to connect everything as the story progresses. A lot of stuff doesn't really make sense yet. He hasn't even given Anti and Darkseid a motive for fighting, which i'm starting to fear he wont really do at all. But again, we'll have to see what happens.

Those things won't be cleared. They just appeared and passed by to progress the plot.

But the reason why Darkseid and Anti are fighting is kept secret on purpose and Johns has hinted at it. So don't worry about those.

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#87 Posted by thecowwasdelirious (1585 posts) - - Show Bio

@squalleon: Valid point, but the story has set up such a huge amount of plot elements that haven't been resolved yet so complaining at this point i would consider a waste of time.

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#88 Posted by Squalleon (9994 posts) - - Show Bio

@squalleon: Valid point, but the story has set up such a huge amount of plot elements that haven't been resolved yet so complaining at this point i would consider a waste of time.

Τhe problem is that the other point WILL be resolved. They are part of the story. These elements introduced here have nothing to resolve. They aren't plot elements, they are plot-devices. There is nothing to resolve about Anti pulling new powers. Its just there to forward the plot.

Do you see where I am coming from?

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#89 Posted by thecowwasdelirious (1585 posts) - - Show Bio

@squalleon: yeah i see what you mean. But i still think you care too much about it. It's a comic book, there's gonna be a whole lotta out-of-left-field plot devices and most of them won't be explained or justified. I fear you over-estimate the plot consistency of a book like this

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#90 Edited by TheIncredibleSuperHulk8642 (4579 posts) - - Show Bio

@squalleon: @lvenger: Maybe you guys just need to wait. All will most likely be revealed and explained.

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#92 Edited by Squalleon (9994 posts) - - Show Bio

@thecowwasdelirious said:

@squalleon: yeah i see what you mean. But i still think you care too much about it. It's a comic book, there's gonna be a whole lotta out-of-left-field plot devices and most of them won't be explained or justified. I fear you over-estimate the plot consistency of a book like this

Νοt really....at least not in what I read.

We aren't talking about pseydo-science if thats what you mean, but with plot-holes.

As I said, I enjoyed the issue, but when I said it had more holes than a swiss cheese people started trying to defend it. And If I don't grasp its brilliance there is something wrong with me...

@theincrediblesuperhulk8642 said:

@squalleon: @lvenger: Maybe you guys just need to wait. All will most likely be revealed and explained.

See two comments above^

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#93 Posted by thecowwasdelirious (1585 posts) - - Show Bio
@thecowwasdelirious said:

@squalleon: yeah i see what you mean. But i still think you care too much about it. It's a comic book, there's gonna be a whole lotta out-of-left-field plot devices and most of them won't be explained or justified. I fear you over-estimate the plot consistency of a book like this

Νοt really....at least not in what I read.

We aren't talking about pseydo-science if thats what you mean, but with plot-holes.

As I said, I enjoyed the issue, but when I said it had more holes than a swiss cheese people started trying to defend it. And If I don't grasp its brilliance there is something wrong with me...

@theincrediblesuperhulk8642 said:

@squalleon: @lvenger: Maybe you guys just need to wait. All will most likely be revealed and explained.

See two comments above^

I think the reason i enjoyed is because i did not have high expectations at all going in. If i had expected the same quality of story and writing as other stuff on my pull list i would've been dissapointed.

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#94 Posted by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio

@theincrediblesuperhulk8642: It's not just the lack of explanations that bothers me, it's that the explanations for what's been going on thus far have not worked for me in regards to the wider context of past DC history. Also Evil Superman has been done so many times in the last few years that it's gotten stale as well as annoying.

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#95 Posted by TheIncredibleSuperHulk8642 (4579 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: You're forgetting that it's past DC history. What applied before might not apply now.

Although you are correct about evil Superman. It's becoming quite the redundant trend.

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#96 Posted by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio

@theincrediblesuperhulk8642: You might be right if it hadn't been confirmed that Anti Monitor is the same as he was in COIE and the Pre New 52. This is supposed to be his 'secret' origin and backstory. This Anti Life retcon precedes what happened in COIE technically, which isn't always Johns' strong suit retconning past history, especially if it's essential.

It's not even done well this time, it's just digitally reversed black coloured Superman, how scary -_- I expected better from Fabok, at least Black Racer possessing Flash was executed in an artistically unique way.

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#97 Posted by TheIncredibleSuperHulk8642 (4579 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: I still think there's more to be revealed there. Where is that confirmation. It contradicts a lot of what DC is selling and comics in general. How is Anti Monitor the same but everyone else is different. Specifically how could 2 Superman co exist if they are essentially the same being. Johns is usually a master retconner. Most of his GL and alot of his work on Superman were retcons.

Yeah. At least it's not just Supes that's getting corrupted.

Yeah.

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#98 Posted by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio

@theincrediblesuperhulk8642: I'll try and find that particular comment either in an interview or an issue but it might be lost on the bowels of the Internet.

As for the 2 Supermen thing, there'll be some cheap plot device that Jurgens will use to justify why the previous Superman hasn't revealed himself to the other Superman, probably some cosmic non interference policy. Johns is also the guy who retconned Barry into being the Speed Force itself and took away what made Wally special, plus he made Shazam into a generic fantasy coming of age hero rather than a boy chosen to be given the powers of the gods for his purity and goodness. He doesn't always do retcons right.

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#99 Edited by TheIncredibleSuperHulk8642 (4579 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@theincrediblesuperhulk8642: I'll try and find that particular comment either in an interview or an issue but it might be lost on the bowels of the Internet.

As for the 2 Supermen thing, there'll be some cheap plot device that Jurgens will use to justify why the previous Superman hasn't revealed himself to the other Superman, probably some cosmic non interference policy. Johns is also the guy who retconned Barry into being the Speed Force itself and took away what made Wally special, plus he made Shazam into a generic fantasy coming of age hero rather than a boy chosen to be given the powers of the gods for his purity and goodness. He doesn't always do retcons right.

Probably, but it's still confusing. The thing with Barry doesn't bother me all that much since DC has been trying to bury Wally for years. And what he did with Shazam was to make him appealing and interesting to the current times who have no care for a goody 2 shoes 15 year old boy with the power of a god. I enjoyed his take with Shazam since it is the New 52 version.

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#100 Edited by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio

@theincrediblesuperhulk8642: I do like what Johns did with New 52 Billy Batson as well and it could have been worse but I know someone who has written about how what Johns did to retcon Billy ruined the magic and appeal that Captain Marvel had originally. That might have been too high a cost in the stead of Johns making Captain Marvel hip and relevant to modern times with a new attitude and a new name.