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#1 Posted by GreenScar1990 (1785 posts) - - Show Bio

The Strongest One There Is....

The Green Scar....

The Worldbreaker....

The Eye of Anger....

The God of Smash....

The One and Only....

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The Incredible Hulk Returns!!!!

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#2 Posted by HaveAtThee (1221 posts) - - Show Bio

Bruce Banner IS the Hulk. Let it be so. Tired of shoehorning in other characters. What makes the character work is the struggle and dichotomy between Banner and Hulk.

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#3 Edited by GreenScar1990 (1785 posts) - - Show Bio

@haveatthee:

I agree with you 100%, my friend. There is only one, true HULK. His name is BRUCE BANNER. And, yes, he is GREEN.

Don't get me wrong. I love Skaar, She-Hulk, Red Hulk, A-Bomb and Red She-Hulk. But none of them cane replace Banner/Hulk. I mean, honestly, other than Skaar, I do do see any other character worthy to carry the mantle of being The Hulk, for unlike all the others Skaar is his son and inherited his power/abilities.

Anyway, we need Banner/Hulk back as soon as possible. When Hulk/Banner do return, it should be in an epic and respectful manner. And the story itself should truly be one that is... INCREDIBLE.

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#4 Posted by Bezza1969 (202 posts) - - Show Bio

So, in March 2018 will it be safe to start buying a Hulk comic again, after an absence of about 3-4 years? I sure hope so!!

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#5 Edited by GreenScar1990 (1785 posts) - - Show Bio

@bezza1969:

I certainly hope so. And if you read the PLANET HULK prose novel, you can see that Greg Pak is at his best when doing serious storylines. If he remains on the title as writer when Banner/Hulk return, he needs to come up with some serious and vast, epic-in-scope stories for Banner and Hulk.

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#6 Posted by theacidskull (22013 posts) - - Show Bio

Image result for Thor Yes gif

Finally I can read about the Hulk again! I haven't touched any Marvel book in months! God I hope they attach a decent writer to the story.

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#7 Posted by IndomitableRegal (16246 posts) - - Show Bio

YES.

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#8 Posted by GreenScar1990 (1785 posts) - - Show Bio

@indomitableregal: @theacidskull:

Indeed, it is something worthy of celebration! It feels like it has been an eternity for us Hulk/Banner fans. I cannot wait until Hulk/Banner return and show the Marvel Universe who is the true Worldbreaker and the Strongest One There Is!

In other words...

TIME TO SMASH!!!!!

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#9 Posted by IndomitableRegal (16246 posts) - - Show Bio
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#10 Posted by The_Titan_Lord (9367 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow

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#11 Posted by medulaoblaganda (2363 posts) - - Show Bio

@theacidskull: your back bro!! still waiting for my hulk context file vol 3 lol

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#12 Posted by GreenScar1990 (1785 posts) - - Show Bio

Avengers: Infinity War

First Official Trailer

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#13 Posted by GreenScar1990 (1785 posts) - - Show Bio

Anounced today, Marvel Entertainment and ComiXology are joining forces to assemble the Avengers next March in a new, exclusive digital comic, written by Peter David.

Titled Avengers: Back to Basics, the six-issue bi-weekly series is set to be an entry point for new fans, as well as established readers, and tap into the success of Thor: Ragnarok.

Featuring art by Brian Level and Juanan Ramirez, and covers by Nick Roche and Chris O’Halloran, the title on the Amazon.com-owned platform tells the story of an impending solar eclipse brought about by a new Darkness. As a terrible and ancient danger arrives, it’s up to Earth’s Mightiest Heroes to avert Ragnarok lest its servants of death prove triumphant.

In a statement provided to SYFY WIRE, Chip Mosher, ComiXology’s head of content and senior director of communications, said, “With buzz over the Avengers reaching a fever pitch, we’re thrilled to help bring fans – new and old – a brand new Avengers story featuring Thor, The Hulk, Iron Man and other favorites sure to capture the imagination of all readers.”

Avengers: Back to Basics arrives March 7, 2018, for $2.99 on ComiXology and Kindle as part of their line of exclusive digital content, and will be available to subscribers of the ComiXology Unlimited service. Marvel Comics joined the service last spring, adding to the more than 10,000 titles on the platform.

http://www.syfy.com/syfywire/exclusive-marvel-unveils-new-avengers-title-with-comixology

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#14 Posted by Battle123axe (9053 posts) - - Show Bio

this is a marvel trying to have it's cake, eat it, and share it, by trying to combine MCU synergy with diverse characters and also 'back to basics'

damned if it ain't working though.

Peter David himself on a book with hulk in it?

HYPE

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#15 Posted by GreenScar1990 (1785 posts) - - Show Bio

In celebration of Hulk/Banner's return to life in comics, Marvel is releasing Hulk variant covers for various comics in February & March of 2018. Here is the few that have been revealed, with many, many more to be revealed/released. Check it out!

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#16 Edited by GreenScar1990 (1785 posts) - - Show Bio

@haveatthee: @bezza1969: @medulaoblaganda: @theacidskull: @battle123axe: @lvenger:@thedailybagel:

More HULK/BANNER News!

Avengers: Disassemble! The epic weekly takeover continues this February when Paco Medina takes the reigns to draw the third month of Marvel’s biggest team adventure, and Marvel is excited to reveal the covers for issues #683 - #686 of AVENGERS: NO SURRENDER by Mark Brooks as well as the first look at February’s interlocking variant covers by Nick Bradshaw!

Month three of AVENGERS: NO SURRENDER takes its epic storytelling to another level, as Jarvis’ life hangs by a thread and the Black Order is on the attack. And as if the Avengers don’t have enough to worry about, they’ll need to deal with a betrayal of one of their own.

Co-written by Mark Waid, Al Ewing and Jim Zub with art by Pepe Larraz, Kim Jacinto and Paco Medina, AVENGERS: NO SURRENDER unites the casts and creative teams of three titles into one weekly book of exciting action. It all starts with AVENGERS #675 this January, when the teams of THE AVENGERS, UNCANNY AVENGERS, and U.S. AVENGERS come together in a story as exciting and powerful as the Marvel Universe itself.

https://www.newsarama.com/37766-banner-is-back-and-angry-in-avengers-no-surrender-month-three.html#s6

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#17 Posted by theacidskull (22013 posts) - - Show Bio

AND HE'S BACK

but not sure about Waid writing though.

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#18 Edited by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio

AND HE'S BACK

but not sure about Waid writing though.

Yeah Waid's run of Hulk was iffy. It started out decent but the second volume in particular was mediocre writing.

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#19 Posted by Battle123axe (9053 posts) - - Show Bio

AND HE'S BACK

but not sure about Waid writing though.

QFT

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#20 Posted by Thedailybagel (12895 posts) - - Show Bio

Waid has written some good things, but honestly his run on Hulk was crap and I don't like Avengers or Champions atm

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#21 Posted by theacidskull (22013 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:
@theacidskull said:

AND HE'S BACK

but not sure about Waid writing though.

Yeah Waid's run of Hulk was iffy. It started out decent but the second volume in particular was mediocre writing.

The problem is that Waid is too grounded for Hulk.

You need to be a little wacky in order to write about someone who's entire character hinges on being a genetic/natural anomaly IMO.

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#22 Posted by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio
@lvenger said:
@theacidskull said:

AND HE'S BACK

but not sure about Waid writing though.

Yeah Waid's run of Hulk was iffy. It started out decent but the second volume in particular was mediocre writing.

The problem is that Waid is too grounded for Hulk.

You need to be a little wacky in order to write about someone who's entire character hinges on being a genetic/natural anomaly IMO.

True, Waid always likes to focus on the human side of his superhero comics which sometimes takes away from the fantasy of the character. It certainly doesn't work in Hulk's case when his best stories have been by writers with a wacky style like you said.

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#23 Posted by theacidskull (22013 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:
@theacidskull said:
@lvenger said:
@theacidskull said:

AND HE'S BACK

but not sure about Waid writing though.

Yeah Waid's run of Hulk was iffy. It started out decent but the second volume in particular was mediocre writing.

The problem is that Waid is too grounded for Hulk.

You need to be a little wacky in order to write about someone who's entire character hinges on being a genetic/natural anomaly IMO.

True, Waid always likes to focus on the human side of his superhero comics which sometimes takes away from the fantasy of the character. It certainly doesn't work in Hulk's case when his best stories have been by writers with a wacky style like you said.

I don't particularly mind the human side, but his action scenes were really dull. Character wise I liked his ideas, but Hulk needs to hit something at some point.

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#24 Posted by Thedailybagel (12895 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:
@theacidskull said:
@lvenger said:
@theacidskull said:

AND HE'S BACK

but not sure about Waid writing though.

Yeah Waid's run of Hulk was iffy. It started out decent but the second volume in particular was mediocre writing.

The problem is that Waid is too grounded for Hulk.

You need to be a little wacky in order to write about someone who's entire character hinges on being a genetic/natural anomaly IMO.

True, Waid always likes to focus on the human side of his superhero comics which sometimes takes away from the fantasy of the character. It certainly doesn't work in Hulk's case when his best stories have been by writers with a wacky style like you said.

I don't particularly mind the human side, but his action scenes were really dull. Character wise I liked his ideas, but Hulk needs to hit something at some point.

Did you like how he wrote Banner out of interest?

Personally I didn't like how he wrote Banner, especially towards the end of his run with all that jealousy stuff, at least in comparison to how Pak and Hickman wrote him.

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#25 Posted by theacidskull (22013 posts) - - Show Bio

@theacidskull said:
@lvenger said:
@theacidskull said:
@lvenger said:
@theacidskull said:

AND HE'S BACK

but not sure about Waid writing though.

Yeah Waid's run of Hulk was iffy. It started out decent but the second volume in particular was mediocre writing.

The problem is that Waid is too grounded for Hulk.

You need to be a little wacky in order to write about someone who's entire character hinges on being a genetic/natural anomaly IMO.

True, Waid always likes to focus on the human side of his superhero comics which sometimes takes away from the fantasy of the character. It certainly doesn't work in Hulk's case when his best stories have been by writers with a wacky style like you said.

I don't particularly mind the human side, but his action scenes were really dull. Character wise I liked his ideas, but Hulk needs to hit something at some point.

Did you like how he wrote Banner out of interest?

Personally I didn't like how he wrote Banner, especially towards the end of his run with all that jealousy stuff, at least in comparison to how Pak and Hickman wrote him.

He started out great but then yeah, I didn't like it either. Banner's always been confident in his skills so to see him get that fussed over a figurative dick measuring contest was weird.

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#26 Posted by medulaoblaganda (2363 posts) - - Show Bio

am excited hulk is back at long last, but waid writing the comic? nah, am not too happy about it. the writer doesn't know how to create a very powerful villain for people like the hulk. he wrote the champion and the champion wasn't that good. the villains in the comic where weak. they should have given avengers no surrender to peter david or grek pak. one thing i like about waid is him making the hulk incredibly fast seen as a blur, other than that, he isn't good on hulk level character.

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#27 Edited by HAWK2916 (4875 posts) - - Show Bio

Can't wait for the real Hulk!!

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#28 Posted by Thedailybagel (12895 posts) - - Show Bio

@theacidskull: have you read any of Hickman avengers or how he wrote banner?

I was re-reading his run yesterday and he writes banner really, really well.

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#29 Posted by Battle123axe (9053 posts) - - Show Bio

@theacidskull: have you read any of Hickman avengers or how he wrote banner?

I was re-reading his run yesterday and he writes banner really, really well.

hickman was just a really good writer in general, and he seemed to have done a lot of research about bruce's history and it reflected in his writing

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#30 Posted by Thedailybagel (12895 posts) - - Show Bio

@battle123axe: Yeah, my favorite scene was when Banner confronted Stark.

Although yeah Hickman was amazing, I'm only now appreciating how good his run was.

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#31 Posted by SuperGoku17 (7220 posts) - - Show Bio

@hawk2916 said:

Can't wait for the real Hulk!!

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#32 Posted by Battle123axe (9053 posts) - - Show Bio

@battle123axe: Yeah, my favorite scene was when Banner confronted Stark.

Although yeah Hickman was amazing, I'm only now appreciating how good his run was.

yup

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#33 Posted by GreenScar1990 (1785 posts) - - Show Bio

@medulaoblaganda: @thedailybagel: @lvenger: @battle123axe: @theacidskull:

It's actually several writers who are working on Avengers: No Surrender.

However, I agree. Waid's Hulk run was utterly lackluster, disappointing, boring and very much meh. He talks a big game, but never delivered. He said Hulk would face the most massive threats in the MU, and gave us mediocre villains and equally underwhelming story arches. And I detested his supporting cast of characters and how he portrayed Banner/Hulk.

Waid knew nothing about the Hulk, what to do with him, or how to handle him. He made him into nothing but a boring, raging, destructive, one-dimensional growling beast. And I hated how he made Banner, someone who is confident and supremely intelligent (one of the top 5 most intelligent beings on Earth) into someone petty and attention seeking. That's no Banner. Bruce Banner is heroic, selfless, confident and not afraid to use his intellect to outwit or outcreate anyone.

Hickman's portrayal of Banner was great. His Hulk? Not so much. Basically the same as Waid's portrayal. Not to mention constantly having Hulk amped down (like in his fight against Sun God) or simply under-utilized. Hickman's Avengers work was nothing more than a FF story in disguise with Doom & Richards at the focus. I mean, for further proof, look how he wasted the potential of the Black Order's Supergiant & Black Dwarf.

Supergiant, a virtually psychic parasite and omnipath, was killed off after just being introduced. Black Dwarf didn't fare much better. Beaten and driven away from Wakanda by the Black Panther, then jobbing out and being easily killed by Ronan, Super Skrull, Annihilus and Gladiator. Black Dwarf should have been treated as a total powerhouse, akin to Mangog or Kurse. And Supergiant should be a telepath of such power that it'd take numerous powerful telepaths just to combat her. Wasted potential.

Let's hope that, with their resurrection in Avengers: No Surrender, that they and the rest of the Black Order will be given respect and utilized to their full potential. And hopefully, in the upcoming film Avengers: Infinity War, Black Dwarf/Cull Obsidian will be a Hulk/Thor level heavy hitter.

And most of all, let us hope that with his return, THE HULK/BRUCE BANNER will be given nothing but respect and shown to be one of the most powerful heroes in the Marvel Universe.

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#34 Posted by Battle123axe (9053 posts) - - Show Bio

@greenscar1990: that's fair with your opinions on both their Banners/Hulks, and these are my hopes as well

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#35 Posted by IAmTheLaw (835 posts) - - Show Bio

At the time, I wasn't a huge fan of Waid. With the benefit of hindsight, I don't think it's a terrible thing going back to him.

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#36 Posted by GreenScar1990 (1785 posts) - - Show Bio

@iamthelaw:

He's one of the co-writers of Avengers: No Surrender, not of the Hulk title. So, yes, that is a good thing. Most likely Pak will stay on to write Banner/Hulk or we'll get a new writer for the series.

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#37 Posted by TheIncredibleSuperHulk8642 (4587 posts) - - Show Bio

@battle123axe: @thedailybagel: Just wanted to add that I too agree that Hickman's Avengers run is superb IMO. I put it on par with Morrison's Justice League as a run that not only perfectly encapsulates how to do a proper team book but how to properly handle large casts, knock characterization out of the mark, strong character beats, lots of nice feats, massive scope and plots and a deep rich message about life (Avengers) and heroism (JL)

Miss Hickman writing for Marvel his F4 was perfect

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#38 Edited by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio

@greenscar1990: Regarding Hickman's Hulk, at least he gave Hulk that weight of a star feat. That was a very impressive feat of strength/durability. And do you think Pak would come back to writing Banner Hulk after he's already spent 2-3 years writing the character?

@theincrediblesuperhulk8642 Wouldn't put Hickman's Avengers on Morrison's JLA level personally but I do love his F4 run from what I've read of it. That was really terrific. I've started to warm up to the idea of him on Superman that has been around on some other forums, he'd certainly be more preferable than Bendis.

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#39 Posted by TheIncredibleSuperHulk8642 (4587 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@theincrediblesuperhulk8642 Wouldn't put Hickman's Avengers on Morrison's JLA level personally but I do love his F4 run from what I've read of it. That was really terrific. I've started to warm up to the idea of him on Superman that has been around on some other forums, he'd certainly be more preferable than Bendis.

In all honesty I would. They both dealt with similar concepts and ideas and utilized the idea of making their teams the definitive super team for earth in the sense of making the JLA the worlds most powerful team bar none and Hickman did the same for Avengers as well as the massive scope that never seemed to falter for both runs. Although I will agree that Morrison's run is better and I do enjoy it more (Hickman had slightly stronger artwork by his side though but Morrison's was more consistent) Hickman had tighter plotting and a more consistent pace but in all honesty the frantic pace of Morrison's run worked in his favour. His F4 run is really, really good if you ever get a chance to complete it you won't regret it.

He'd be a great writer for the character, although I love Superman I do think Hickman would be a better fit for the JL, the Legion or the Green Lantern Corps but make no mistake he'd most likely have a fantastic take on Supes. His inclusion of Hyperion was deliberate and if I'm not mistaken he once mentioned in a tweet that at the time he believed it'd have been the only chance he would get at writing Superman in a way. Also look no further than Sun God who although short lived was one of the better Marvel Superman clones especially in regards to characterization he is the closest to Supes himself sharing the same type of nobility, courage, heart and hope. He seems to be a big fan of the character as the first comic he ever read was a Superboy and the Legion issue so I do agree he'd be a fine fit. Bendis I have mixed feelings about.

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#40 Posted by Thedailybagel (12895 posts) - - Show Bio

@greenscar1990: Hickman portrayed hulk really well as well, he basically made him seem like one of the biggest players in any fight, as in constantly referring to Hulk as a danger.

He also had hulk lolstomp captain marvel, the whole star feat, smile at a punch from Thanos, cause earthquakes all over the world in a fight with another hulk and he pushed a moon sized ship into a rogue planet. He also stated that Hulk was the physically strongest avenger when people like Thor and Hyperion were explicitly mentioned in the question.

The sun god feat he also left explicit as to why hulk lost; he was weakened due to a device that banner was previously using.

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#41 Posted by Thedailybagel (12895 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Hickman would be an amazing fit for Supes, his characterisation of Hickman and sun god was great.

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#42 Posted by Battle123axe (9053 posts) - - Show Bio

@battle123axe: @thedailybagel: Just wanted to add that I too agree that Hickman's Avengers run is superb IMO. I put it on par with Morrison's Justice League as a run that not only perfectly encapsulates how to do a proper team book but how to properly handle large casts, knock characterization out of the mark, strong character beats, lots of nice feats, massive scope and plots and a deep rich message about life (Avengers) and heroism (JL)

Miss Hickman writing for Marvel his F4 was perfect

that's true

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#43 Posted by GreenScar1990 (1785 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: @thedailybagel:

The feats were nice, yes, but I wish more was done with Hulk in terms of giving him that WWH personality, power, intelligence and cunning. It's just that ever since Pak originally left after HOTM, all the other writers since then have only regressed Banner/Hulk. It just appeared like Marvel (executives, writers, editors, etc.) didn't know what to do with him/them.

And while Hickman's run was decent, there was a good bit of things that it could have handled better. The certain members of the Black Order I mentioned being one of those that could have been utilized better. It still feels, at least to me, that it was nothing more than a Fantastic Four story in the disguise of an Avengers story.

For the main focus is seemingly on that of Reed Richards & Doctor Doom, with T'Challa & Namor, Iron Man & Captain America, and the Avengers thrown in alongside Thanos and the Black Order/Cabal. It was always veering towards them. Richards & Doom, since the beginning of Hickman's Avengers & New Avengers runs.

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#44 Posted by TheIncredibleSuperHulk8642 (4587 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: @thedailybagel:

The feats were nice, yes, but I wish more was done with Hulk in terms of giving him that WWH personality, power, intelligence and cunning. It's just that ever since Pak originally left after HOTM, all the other writers since then have only regressed Banner/Hulk. It just appeared like Marvel (executives, writers, editors, etc.) didn't know what to do with him/them.

And while Hickman's run was decent, there was a good bit of things that it could have handled better. The certain members of the Black Order I mentioned being one of those that could have been utilized better. It still feels, at least to me, that it was nothing more than a Fantastic Four story in the disguise of an Avengers story.

For the main focus is seemingly on that of Reed Richards & Doctor Doom, with T'Challa & Namor, Iron Man & Captain America, and the Avengers thrown in alongside Thanos and the Black Order/Cabal. It was always veering towards them. Richards & Doom, since the beginning of Hickman's Avengers & New Avengers runs.

He was working with the characterization of the Hulk that was given and mandated by Marvel to be more like the movie Hulk something which Bendis got the ball rolling on and Waid continued with and Hickman worked around.

The Black Order were handled well enough but they were never meant to be these unstoppable be all end all threats, they were generals and served their purpose. Although I do agree Black Dwarf seemed to get a bit of the shaft it could have just been Hickman had the least interest in cultivating that character out of the order.

I disagree, Tony and Cap were heavily focused on throughout his run they were the yin and the yang, life and death. Namor and T'Challa were also given focus aplenty with some nice bromances cultivated between Gods like Hyperion/Thor and Monsters like Beast/Hulk. It was only Secret Wars that altered focus and lets not forget Secret Wars was not just the end of his Avengers saga it was the end of everything he had ever worked on in the marvel universe. His Secret Warriors, his Shield, his Ultimates and his F4 and Avengers all tied into one final bow from this massive storyline.

You can obviously disagree but this is what came to mind when I read what bothered you about his run.

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#45 Edited by GreenScar1990 (1785 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: @medulaoblaganda: @theacidskull: @bezza1969: @thedailybagel: @battle123axe:

Here's the solicitations for March 2018's Avengers: No Surrender issues that announce the return of the God of Smash, the Strongest One There is, the Sakaarson and the Worldbreaker, the Incredible, Immortal Hulk!!!

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AVENGERS #684

MARK WAID, JIM ZUB & AL EWING (W) • PACO MEDINA & JOE BENNETT (A)

Cover by MARK BROOKS

YOUNG VARIANT COVER BY SKOTTIE YOUNG

NO SURRENDER Part 10

THE AVENGERS WEEKLY EPIC CONTINUES IN THIS OVERSIZED ISSUE!

Back from the dead! He cannot be reasoned with. He will not be stopped. Bruce Banner isn’t home right now. There is only THE IMMORTAL HULK.

40 PGS./Rated T+ …$4.99

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AVENGERS #685

AL EWING, JIM ZUB & MARK WAID (W) • PACO MEDINA (A)

Cover by MARK BROOKS

NEW MUTANTS VARIANT BY TERRY DODSON

NO SURRENDER Part 11

THE AVENGERS WEEKLY EPIC CONTINUES!

The Avengers are in the fight of their lives trying to end the Hulk’s rampage, but nothing can stop the unstoppable. And when an Avenger betrays the team, can the rest of the heroes hope to survive?
32 PGS./Rated T+ …$3.99

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AVENGERS #686

AL EWING, JIM ZUB & MARK WAID (W) • PACO MEDINA (A)

COVER BY Mark Brooks

MARVEL’S AGENTS OF S.H.I.E.L.D. ROAD TO 100 VARIANT COVER BY DALE KEOWN

NO SURRENDER Part 12

THE AVENGERS WEEKLY EPIC CONTINUES!

As Wonder Man struggles to get through to the Hulk, the Black Order attacks Avengers HQ! The grand cosmic game comes to its shocking conclusion — but the war for Earth is just beginning!
32 PGS./Rated T+ …$3.99

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#46 Posted by medulaoblaganda (2363 posts) - - Show Bio

he is immortal? wow! so there is no banner inside or what?

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#47 Posted by GhostRavage (14944 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedailybagel: @battle123axe: Did you read Incredible Hulk #711 already?Amadeus and Thor will fight in Incredible Hulk #712. That's actually a decent highlight on the series.

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#48 Posted by Battle123axe (9053 posts) - - Show Bio

yup, first thing this morning. and, according to solicits, thor will stay in the book, at least until issue #713

i'm hyped.

@thedailybagel: @battle123axe: Did you read Incredible Hulk #711 already?Amadeus and Thor will fight in Incredible Hulk #712. That's actually a decent highlight on the series.

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#49 Posted by theacidskull (22013 posts) - - Show Bio

Immortal hulk huh? Interesting. I'm so happy big green is back, but I'm really tired of Hulks constant Rampages.

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#50 Posted by Thedailybagel (12895 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage: Yeah it's gonna be cool, how do you think it's gonna end up?