Would Molecule Man Be In The Top 5 Strongest Characters In The DC Multiverse?

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immoralimmortal

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Poll: Would Molecule Man Be In The Top 5 Strongest Characters In The DC Multiverse? (58 votes)

yes 17%
nope 62%
he's top 3 7%
meh, top 8 at best 14%

would Owen be in the top 5 strongest characters if he was in DC?

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GGtinyPP

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hes up there but not top 5

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etriel

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#2  Edited By etriel

Multiversal Power in DC is not linear, so when you ask how and where MM fits into DC's so called "hierarchy" which is non-linear, I get confused.

In terms of Cosmology? Molecule Man's power is Timelines , so he is near Kismet who is garbage tier in DC. MM is not even a true conceptual entity, but a Multiversal being (a conventional one) at best.

There are also probably, an infinite number of 5-D Imps who are each superior to Molecule Man due to their Imagination-Hax and being superior to Timelines, not affected by Quantum Mechanics power so MM does not even fit Top 8, he would be less than Infiniteth tier by this definition.

He is garbage tier in DC the same with all the rest of Marvel.

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AlphaAboveAll

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Pre-retcon w/o a doubt.

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johnsmjs36

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Pre Retcon, not. Post Secret Wars 2015, he's up there. Not top 5 but up there.

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Stezzy

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Ignore the Etrail guy. He just babbles and spams pseudo science in an attempt to embellish DC’s cosmology to make up for their lack of showings. Expect nonsense phrases like “DC’s multiversal power is not linear” from him despite the fact that infinite space time destruction are the best type of actual feats you’ll get from DC and going by his logic on the imps, they would be the most powerful beings in DC which is funny seeing how Mxy jobbed hard to Trigon who’s best feat is supposedly conquering a thousand dimensions of unknown sizes.

OT: I’d rank Molecule Man under Batman

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yeimsick

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The guy took part in the creation of the Omniverse and kept a Multiverse in a box for luls, definatly yes.

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fyron

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#8  Edited By fyron

Lol not at all.

Monitor Mind The Overvoid , CAS , Mandrakk , Nil Monitors , Presence , Ellaine , Lucifer , Michael , Endless , Perpetua , Pralaya are all above him. Not quite sure about Perpetua , but anyone who is not just limited to physics in the multiverse is above him. All he's done is manipulate physics and reality warping , which all of the characters I mentioned can literally no sell.

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solaris6

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top 10 definetly, top 5 is debatable.

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Donotdenyyourfate

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@fyron said:

Lol not at all.

Monitor Mind The Overvoid , CAS , Mandrakk , Nil Monitors , Presence , Ellaine , Lucifer , Michael , Endless , Perpetua , Pralaya are all above him. Not quite sure about Perpetua , but anyone who is not just limited to physics in the multiverse is above him. All he's done is manipulate physics and reality warping , which all of the characters I mentioned can literally no sell.

add to this list there's the source, 5d imps like mxy , The otherkind, Hecate the goddess of magic and probably more that can can arguably take on MM

i'd say he'd top 15 for sure but not sure where

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Tedirey

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How many 5D Imps are there? I'm pretty sure there are more than 5 or 8 or them.

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johnsmjs36

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@yeimsick: The creation of his was not infinite. I mean after Franklin ran out Griever was able to destroy most of them in a short time. The Fantastic Four were able to visit all of them. Also that omniverse feat is no different than Franklin creating a baby universe. Hell, Marvel tends to throw out the word Omniverse as much as they tend to throw around omnipotence. Post Secret Wars Owen is powerful by scaling and such but those feats are not that impressive.

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DrakoTheGhoul

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Top 5? Hmm

1-Presence(True Form),The Writer

2-OverVoid, MotherNight, Pralaya, GEB(Possibly True Form Luci), Elaine Belloc, The Presence(Avatar).

He's already out of top 5 so I'll continue

3-Father Time(My opinion), Lucifer, Michael,The Spectre(maybe, depends on version)

Already out of Top 10

4-Dream of The Endless, Destiny of The Endless, Death of The Endless maybe the other 4 endless but they don't have as much.

Already out of Top 15

5-Dr Manhattan,Dr Fate, Mr Mxy, Bat-mite, Quantum Superman(Captain Adam), The Monitors(Perpetua and her 3 children), Darkseid, High Father,Hecate etc..

Okay he's somewhere around here he could be just below top 15 or below 20, depending on his version and their versions.

I know I'm missing some vertigo characters and probably some more DC top tier characters but I'll just stick with the ones most know of. As for Empty Hand and the other monitors(Nil) i don't care for them that much so I'll leave them out.

So for Molecule man I'll say he's definitely not in the Top 15 in my opinion but he's not absolute fodder in the low 30s and on either.

Also before someone shoehorn in why my list is off or wrong in their eyes it's just my view on DC. I'm not saying my list is accurate by any means.

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Wot_m8

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Not even close. He up there but he is more like top 20... maybe.

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Xanman2000

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@wot_m8 said:

Not even close. He up there but he is more like top 20... maybe.

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immoralimmortal

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@wot_m8:

geez DC really is way more high-tier than Marvel aren't they. MM is top 5 in Marvel easy

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Wot_m8

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@immoralimmortal: DC cosmology is way more complicated than Marvel which is kinda straight forward.

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Bayman007

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Nope

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fyron

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#19  Edited By fyron

@immoralimmortal: Attribute that to Morrison , who literally increased DC's cosmology by three complete tiers. There used to be only a multiverse of infinite universes , 5th dimension , the Monitor Realm and the Sphere of the Gods before. He retconned that into a megaverse , brought infinite megaverses , introduced limbo , and introduced infinite canon possibilities and meta hax too. Not only that , DC now contains the Overvoid which is a house for "fictions" themselves , which is another tier above. That created confusions too , and people for a long time were unable to understand the cosmology. Probably Marvel is trying to increase their cosmology too , that's probably the reason they nerfed TOAA.

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etriel

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#20  Edited By etriel

Marvel's entire Multiverse is just a Universe with dimensions in it. Ultimate Ultimates confirmed this.

All Multiversals in Marvel are mostly just Universe level now, including the featless TOAA.

The Overvoid on the other hand is an Omnipotent sized void.

The Marvel abstracts who are creations of a God who needs science technology to reality warp, already have no chance.

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johnsmjs36

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@fyron: Nope its just Starlin and his boner for Thanos. In his first quest Thanos went for the Non abstracts with the cube, second time he went straight for Eternity below LT with IG, third time he went for everyone including LT below TOAA with HOTU and now he went straight for TOAA. I am pretty sure if Starlin ever does anymore quest for Thanos he would jump out of the story and go for the readers.

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MichaelJulius

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#22  Edited By MichaelJulius

The DC/Vertigo Cosmic Hierarchy (in order of power)

1. True God of DC

  • Monitor Mind - The Comic Book itself, the canvass used to paint on, the napkin you doodle on. The God that lets all other God's exist. The Highest Form of "something" or not something that can be.

2. Aspects of God

  • Dax Novu - Dax is Monitor Mind given shape, form and purpose. The Original Investigator.
  • Mandrakk - What was left over of Dax Novu after was contaminated with story and ideas. The Author states he was representative of all negative concepts. The purest evil there can be.
  • CaS - The Concept that Monitor Mind created to contain the Flaw. It represents all positive concepts that can exist and is powered by the narrative of Superman.

3. Descendants of the first form of God

  • Nil Monitors - Lesser Monitors than Dax Novu, intended to keep watch over the CaS and keep watch over individual universes inside the Flaw that was mapped by Dax Novu, prior to his downfall. Monitor Prime seems to be their leader. No other confirmations of hierarchy within the Nil Monitor group was ever confirmed, although they consider Nix Uotan their newest member. It is there specific job to dictate and preside over literal Fictions. They have feats of ignoring the author and removing his DC Guidebook from our "real world", being immune to canon shifts and retcon.

4. Lesser versions of similar Monitor Mind (Knockoffs)

  • The Empty Hand - The Author states that The Empty Hand is quite literally another sentient comic book come to life and that has traversed the Over Void to invade the DC Orrery. The Author calls him another "God". However, he was unable to handle the apparent weakest Nil Monitor (Nix Uotan) without first corrupting him.

5. "Real World Authority"

  • The Writer (Grant Morrison) - The author of the entire Orrery and Vertigo (consider him along with Vertigo authors as well as a single entity). Able to loop back inward into his own fiction and enter the conceptual space of Limbo, which is where authors place items, stories, characters and locations that were removed from the Canon of DC and Vertigo.

6. Meta-conceptual spaces written and used by Authors who contain un-canonized elements of DC comics/Vertigo comics

  • Limbo residents - Anything ever retconned is inside of DC Limbo. That means The Source from Death of the New Gods is inside of it somewhere, all of the uncanonized Monitors from Countdown to Final Crisis and so on. The entire cosmology of uncanonized stories, including the God level beings that appeared inside of it, are all here. Even Merry Man is able to battle against an army that didn't exist yet. The concept of IS and IS NOT means nothing to them. They can do things that break logic and physics does not apply here. Was Mr. Mxyzptlk ever uncanonized in any specific comic? He's here. Was there an uncanonized version of The Presence? He's there too.

(Finally, we get to the standard DC/Vertigo Multiverse. Beyond Limbo, DC and Vertigo stop being a comic book. Everyone else is a part of the narrative written by DC Authors)

7. Judges/Extraneous entities beyond The Source Wall / The Source

  • Unknown who they are, what they are. We only know they exist.

8. The God level beings that preside over the narrative of DC/Vertigo

  • The Presence - Judaeo/Christian/Abrahamic God who is responsible for the Creation of the Multiverse.
  • Perpetua - An Alternate Multiverse of DC where she (a Monitor) created the Multiverse.
  • Pralaya - Yet another Alternate Multiverse of DC where she created the Multiverse.

Odds are great that The Presence is another Creator just like Perpetua was and we will come to find out that this is the case sometime in the future. The reason being, my theory, is that Endless cannot set food inside Monitor Multiverses. The story of Dark Knight Metal and the origins of Superman and Batman, who enter the Dark Multiverse, are from The Presence's primary Multiverse as I call it. The events of the current JLA 2018-2019 (currently) are from Perpetua's Multiverse where The Presence didn't create everything. Just a theory. But, it fits.

9. Aspects of God - The Angelic Beings

  • The Pax Dei - The Angelic Team that brought Lucifer in the height of his power to know his first defeat. Lucifer fell from grace because this team defeated him.
  • Michael Demiurgos - 50% of the power of The Presence, he is literal creationism, however, he cannot shape the Multiverse he created for The Presence.
  • Lucifer Morningstar - 50% of the power of The Presence, he is literal shaping of creationism, he cannot make reality, but he has infinite control over the Multiverse.
  • Great Evil Beast - The Presence's bad side.
  • Father Time - Father to The Endless
  • Mother Night - Mother to The Endless

10. Lower Tier Creators and Shaper's of the Multiverse

  • Sons of Perpetua (Mar/Anti Monitor/Forger - Responsible for creation and oversight of infinite cosmological-intense Multiverses (However, apparently, this power only is possible in the 6th Dimension)
  • The Endless - Again, I personally believe the story Multiverse of The Endless/Vertigo/Primary DC is completely separate from the one Perpetua made. I consider the Monitors unable to be affected by them and vice versa. Endless cannot step into Perpetua's Multiverse and her sons would not be able to enter the domain of The Endless. They are on par, IMO.

11. Lower Aspects of God

  • The Spectre / The Radiant - Extensions of the will of The Presence. Had trouble with Anti Monitor at full power and both were easily defeated by Rox Ogama, a lesser Nil Monitor.

12. Cosmic Inter-dimensional Beings

  • Mr. Mxyzptlk / Bat-Mite / Imps in general - Stated clearly that he is infinitely less powerful than the Sons of Perpetua, however, has the power of literal Imagination, his magic and reality warping is infinite Multiversal.
  • Superboy/man Prime - Immune to 5th Dimension infinite Multiversal magic/reality warping and can shatter Hypertime with physical strikes.
  • Molecule Man/Beyonder - Infinite Reality Warping of physical atomic structures.
  • Dr. Manhattan - Responsible for Hypertime canon shift, seems to also have infinite reality warping power too.
  • Countdown Monitors - Beings who can destroy universes with ease and speed blitz The Flash.
  • Monarch - Similar to above, everyone here is either low multiverses-mid-multiversal in power.

Dr. Manhattan and Mxyzptlk might be comparable, I left Mr. Mxyzptlk at the top though, although it is possible he is a step lesser than Manhattan based on his fear of him.

Yep. I place Superboy Prime above them, I don't for a moment believe infinite reality warping will have any effect on him, he is Hax'ed against that. If he can take out Mr. Mxyzptlk, then Owen and Beyonder won't be able to either.

Molecule Man at his best gets ranked past the 25th most powerful being in DC/Vertigo. My opinion.

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immoralimmortal

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@michaeljulius: could the DC high-tiers in your post beat Umineko-verse?

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MichaelJulius

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#24  Edited By MichaelJulius

Umineko is a story plot inside the mind of a little girl in that fiction. It is a fiction contained inside of another fiction. This means dream has complete override authority over it. Think of it this way:

Someone in the DC Orrery in Earth 33 (The real world analogue) thinks up their own cosmic hierarchy, a story fiction about witches and magic, gods a such. Dream takes a vacation to Earth 33 and overhears this little girl talking about her narrative and fiction. He decides to drop into her mind and play inside of Umineko. Does he get defeated by anyone inside that narrative? Nope. He can burn them right out of her mind if he wants to.

@immoralimmortal said:

@michaeljulius: could the DC high-tiers in your post beat Umineko-verse?

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zgtfreak

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@michaeljulius: could the DC high-tiers in your post beat Umineko-verse?

Ignore Michael. Everything he says is nonsense. But yes, DC god-tiers like Lucifer are above Umineko.

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Arthur_Morgan

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Not even close.

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Soratoumiga

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No. Ignore the Michael guy though, that list is the worst, by a long shot.

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immoralimmortal

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MichaelJulius

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#29  Edited By MichaelJulius

Here is a lovely guide video on the entire cosmology of Umineko, from an actual expert. Even Sungsam/Norsewinter said a while back that Umineko is a fiction inside of another fiction, he agreed with me on that, and he absolutely hates me.

Loading Video...

@immoralimmortal said:

@michaeljulius: interesting.

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fyron

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@michaeljulius: But what about The Creator ? The Creator in turn created Featherine , he is above her. Can he contend with the Monitor Mind and other Nil Monitors ?

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zgtfreak

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#31  Edited By zgtfreak

@michaeljulius said:

Here is a lovely guide video on the entire cosmology of Umineko, from an actual expert. Even Sungsam/Norsewinter said a while back that Umineko is a fiction inside of another fiction, he agreed with me on that, and he absolutely hates me.

Loading Video...
@immoralimmortal said:

@michaeljulius: interesting.

You were debunked on this ages ago. This is a fan theory for the Trick ending. Even the comments are complimenting the uploader for his fan theory. And this isn't for the Magic ending. Vs. debates use the Magic ending, which is backed up by every other WTC series. You've never even read Umineko.

You also lied about Ryukishi saying he said there is no magic and never gave links because he never said that.

And @etriel has never backed such things.

@fyronBut what about The Creator ? The Creator in turn created Featherine , he is above her. Can he contend with the Monitor Mind and other Nil Monitors ?

The Creator is omnipotent. He blinks DC and stalemates its own omnipotent entity. Overall it goes Elaine > Michael and Lucifer > EoS Battler >> Creator Beatrice >>>>> Monitors. Michael literally thinks the Monitors are the physical comic book pages IRL and solo fiction.

Wait... I just realized this is a Marvel Vs. DC thread. Why is When They Cry being brought up here?

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MichaelJulius

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Creator is essentially the God of the Fiction, so probably that little girl who dreamed up Umineko, a representation or avatar of her dream authority. If you take that character and place it in a neutral battle "zone" to fight, I'd rank it as comparable to a Presence level being, but it has no feats. And since the TOAA Regulator incident, who knows what featless God-tiers really can do.

Equal playing field = Creator = Presence in terms of title.

Monitor Mind is literally the comic book page that is sentient, or whatever catalyst fictions are implemented into. Monitor Mind is the website page and computer that Umineko is written on, the manga pages that it is drawn on and the catalyst the author, Ryukishi, used to generate the fiction. It transcends the character of The Creator by infinite levels, as does the Author Ryukishi. Ryukishi gave an interview a while back saying his "meta" world isn't actually our real world analogue.

Its more like how that video says it, its a fiction in a fiction. And to that 2nd lower fiction (the entire Umineko-verse), there is a "Real world" where a young girl likes detective and magic stories and made this fiction. But even RyuKishi himself says that Meta is not actually real world Meta. I posted a link to it a while back in an Umineko thread and was met with hell because nobody but me apparently read it.

The link was given to me by pro-Umineko enthusiasts and used as ammo to defend the idea that Nope, its real world meta! Look here is an interview proving it. So I read it, and it turns out there is a paragraph dedicated to debunking the Meta real world by RyuKishi. That is the level of favoritism when it comes to some debaters. It was great for a laugh.

@fyron said:

@michaeljulius: But what about The Creator ? The Creator in turn created Featherine , he is above her. Can he contend with the Monitor Mind and other Nil Monitors ?

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Soratoumiga

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this monitor wank

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zgtfreak

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fyron

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@zgtfreak: Well , I don't know about how Creator will fare against DC's Monitor Mind , but let's agree to disagree about Lucifer and Michael > Nil monitors. Because I frankly read Julius' posts and despite whatever you may call him , I did not see a proper debunking from you guys which refuted what he said. And the scans which he posted aren't censored either , I even checked the comic book. How about a proper CaV between you two ?

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MichaelJulius

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Lying? No, just well informed.

Here is that thread interview. Meta means something else to the author. Lots of translation errors, and there is the author confirming what the Meta World is. It's not the Real world analogue for us.

@zgtfreak said:
@michaeljulius said:

Here is a lovely guide video on the entire cosmology of Umineko, from an actual expert. Even Sungsam/Norsewinter said a while back that Umineko is a fiction inside of another fiction, he agreed with me on that, and he absolutely hates me.

Loading Video...
@immoralimmortal said:

@michaeljulius: interesting.

You were debunked on this ages ago. This is a fan theory for the Trick ending. Even the comments are complimenting the uploader for his fan theory. And this isn't for the Magic ending. Vs. debates use the Magic ending, which is backed up by every other WTC series. You've never even read Umineko.

You also lied about Ryukishi saying he said there is no magic and never gave links because he never said that.

And @etriel has never backed such things.

@fyronBut what about The Creator ? The Creator in turn created Featherine , he is above her. Can he contend with the Monitor Mind and other Nil Monitors ?

The Creator is omnipotent. He blinks DC and stalemates its own omnipotent entity. Overall it goes Elaine > Michael and Lucifer > EoS Battler >> Creator Beatrice >>>>> Monitors.

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fyron

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@zgtfreak: @MichaelJulius:

How 'bout you two do a CaV about Nil Monitors vs Presence ? Then we'll have at least a legit account that both sides gave their best in the argument.

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OnlyOneEmpereor

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Absolutely not.

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ProfessorRespect

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I would say so, if it was Pre Retcon.

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fyron

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@soratoumiga: And you shut up , because all you know is to rant "Monitors lose ! Monitors lose !" in every thread where they're brought up. You haven't even tried to bring up a single scan supporting your argument. Others at least tried to refute Julius' statements , you didn't even try and just kept on ranting.

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MichaelJulius

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@soratoumiga: @zgtfreak:

No Monitor wank here, just your panic over the community not listening to your group anymore. I clearly said that The Creator is on par with The Presence. Also, the interview which you said I lied about takes about 5 seconds to find with search terms linking the authors name and the term Meta. You were shut down by the author himself, so you hold no sway here what so ever and your version of this is your opinion. Death of the Author is now your only argument left on this subject.

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Soratoumiga

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@fyron: Because I've already debunked every single one of his wanks in the past, when he targeted it towards me. You're here for like a month, you can't know and don't know what happened before you were here, unless you're an alt.

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zgtfreak

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@michaeljulius:

Lying? No, just well informed.

Here is that thread interview. Meta means something else to the author. Lots of translation errors, and there is the author confirming what the Meta World is. It's not the Real world analogue for us.

All you did in that thread was claim that there was translation errors without any evidence. All of your claims against WTC is baseless and without evidence. You just make a claim of something being a mistranslation and that's it. No reasoning or evidence.

And there was no interview in that thread. Just baseless claims from you.

but let's agree to disagree about Lucifer and Michael > Nil monitors. Because I frankly read Julius' posts and despite whatever you may call him , I did not see a proper debunking from you guys which refuted what he said.

Ask @etriel. I don't read comics. Everyone else's points convinced me though of Vertigo >>> Monitors. I'm here to debunk transcending fiction nonsense. Look at what Michael said:

4. Lesser versions of similar Monitor Mind (Knockoffs)

  • The Empty Hand - The Author states that The Empty Hand is quite literally another sentient comic book come to life and that has traversed the Over Void to invade the DC Orrery. The Author calls him another "God". However, he was unable to handle the apparent weakest Nil Monitor (Nix Uotan) without first corrupting him.

5. "Real World Authority"

^ Apparently fictional characters have power over real life writer authority. lmao Monitors don't have the hax to get past anyone above Aurora.

OT: Molecule Man is fodder.

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MichaelJulius

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It should be an easy copy and paste then for Soratoumiga, just copy over that debunk on this issue that you already typed out. Won't take more than a few seconds I'd imagine?

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fyron

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@soratoumiga: @MichaelJulius:

I really want to see a CaV. For those who say the Monitor claims were debunked , I want to see that. Because I didn't see a single claim which was debunked properly. May be the Presence squad brought up some arguments before me , but a CaV would be the best. Are you ready ?

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Soratoumiga

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@fyron: I have no time for CaVs (I'm already on one, and not even sure if I'll finish it at all), I will probably eventually make a relatively long post about absurd claims, and the debunk on them.

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Y3kthunder

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I'll do a cav once my internet gets back on if anyone is interested. That aside MM is probably in the top 20s or 30s

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fyron

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#49  Edited By fyron

@zgtfreak: He said that the Monitors can bypass the authority of the author in Earth 33 ,the analogue of our world in comics. It is supposed to be our world in comics , more like comic counterpart of our world , not our world actually. Like , the author who drew the comics on the Overvoid is the author from Earth 33 , and it houses all fictions of DC verse. I don't see anything wrong here .

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zgtfreak

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#50  Edited By zgtfreak

@cosmicbike said:

THIS DC COSMOLOGY CONVERSATIONS NEVER FAILS TO ENTERTAIN ME LOL

^