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#1 Posted by midnightdragon18 (9762 posts) - - Show Bio

why or why not

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#2 Posted by jashugan (1389 posts) - - Show Bio

He has no chakra network so it probably wouldn't work but infinite tsukuyomi might

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#3 Posted by Royal_Warrior (4724 posts) - - Show Bio

considering Jiren has literally punched through dimensions and overpowered far stronger hax than gengutsu I doubt it'll have any effect

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#4 Posted by Valor_175 (5742 posts) - - Show Bio

He hasn't shown resistance to it, so I don't see why not.

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#5 Posted by DrPepperMan (2181 posts) - - Show Bio

If punches from Goku get deflected off his finger and hits time hax have no effect on him, a hax from a verse where moon busting puts you at god tier isn't working on jiren.

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#6 Posted by midnightdragon18 (9762 posts) - - Show Bio

@valor_175: so just to be clear, would it also work on someone like the grand priest or the living tribunal because they don't have any feats either ?

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#7 Posted by Valor_175 (5742 posts) - - Show Bio

@valor_175: so just to be clear, would it also work on someone like the grand priest or the living tribunal because they don't have any feats either ?

The Grand Priest? Sure.

The Living Tribunal? Absolutely not, as he holds a nigh-omnipotent power that would and has gotten around things like that.

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#8 Posted by midnightdragon18 (9762 posts) - - Show Bio

@midnightdragon18 said:

@valor_175: so just to be clear, would it also work on someone like the grand priest or the living tribunal because they don't have any feats either ?

The Grand Priest? Sure.

The Living Tribunal? Absolutely not, as he holds a nigh-omnipotent power that would and has gotten around things like that.

there is no such thing as nigh-omnipotent, anything omnipotent is infinitely more powerful than anything that isn't.

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#9 Posted by SuperDragonfly9 (928 posts) - - Show Bio

Kaguya's Genjutsu can work on beings without a chakra network so it would probably work on those big black eyes. Plus no matter how strong someone is they always have a past, such as Jiren feeling the guilt of his parents death. Genjutsu can use that to paralyze Jiren in his mind. But if it isn't Kaguya's genjutsu not sure anything else would work. Although Itachi's Sharingan has been shown to work on regular people. Such as when he hypnotized a woman in Part 1 to seduce Jirayai in the beginning of Finding Tsundae Arc

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#10 Posted by Beyonder97 (576 posts) - - Show Bio

Genjutsu can work on TOAA and The Presence what are you talking about!

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#11 Posted by Valor_175 (5742 posts) - - Show Bio

@valor_175 said:
@midnightdragon18 said:

@valor_175: so just to be clear, would it also work on someone like the grand priest or the living tribunal because they don't have any feats either ?

The Grand Priest? Sure.

The Living Tribunal? Absolutely not, as he holds a nigh-omnipotent power that would and has gotten around things like that.

there is no such thing as nigh-omnipotent, anything omnipotent is infinitely more powerful than anything that isn't.

Nigh-omnipotent means that you can do almost anything.

Wouldn't you agree that characters like the Living Tribunal would fit into that category?

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#12 Posted by batmanprep (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

yes

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#13 Posted by MetalJimmor (4878 posts) - - Show Bio

There's no reason to think it wouldn't. Nobody in Dragonball has resistance to actual mind attacks aside from Vegeta, and Babidi's level of control is... Dubious at best.

I'm kind of surprised there wasn't at least one telepath or illusionist in the Tournament of Power. It's such a common ability in fiction and would have put this argument to rest one way or another.

Granted, Jiren could still casually solo the entire Naruto verse. He'd only be caught in a genjutsu if he for some reason chose to stand still long enough for it to happen.

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#14 Edited by midnightdragon18 (9762 posts) - - Show Bio

@valor_175 said:
@midnightdragon18 said:
@valor_175 said:
@midnightdragon18 said:

@valor_175: so just to be clear, would it also work on someone like the grand priest or the living tribunal because they don't have any feats either ?

The Grand Priest? Sure.

The Living Tribunal? Absolutely not, as he holds a nigh-omnipotent power that would and has gotten around things like that.

there is no such thing as nigh-omnipotent, anything omnipotent is infinitely more powerful than anything that isn't.

Nigh-omnipotent means that you can do almost anything.

Wouldn't you agree that characters like the Living Tribunal would fit into that category?

no because the concept doesn't make sense. Almost infinite is infinitely smaller than infinite

if you can do almost anything and i can do anything, then i can do infinitely more things than you.

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#15 Posted by midnightdragon18 (9762 posts) - - Show Bio

@metaljimmor: so just to be clear, genjutsu can affect anyone no matter how strong they are ? as long as they don't have any feats to resist it ?

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#16 Posted by Valor_175 (5742 posts) - - Show Bio

@valor_175 said:
@midnightdragon18 said:
@valor_175 said:
@midnightdragon18 said:

@valor_175: so just to be clear, would it also work on someone like the grand priest or the living tribunal because they don't have any feats either ?

The Grand Priest? Sure.

The Living Tribunal? Absolutely not, as he holds a nigh-omnipotent power that would and has gotten around things like that.

there is no such thing as nigh-omnipotent, anything omnipotent is infinitely more powerful than anything that isn't.

Nigh-omnipotent means that you can do almost anything.

Wouldn't you agree that characters like the Living Tribunal would fit into that category?

no because the concept doesn't make sense. Almost infinite is infinitely smaller than infinite

if you can do almost anything and i can do anything, then i can do infinitely more things than you.

It makes sense, you even explained it just now, lol.

The Living Tribunal has been described as nigh-omnipotent before, and even as flat-out omnipotent if I'm not mistaken, so my initial point still stands.

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#17 Edited by midnightdragon18 (9762 posts) - - Show Bio

@valor_175 said:@midnightdragon18 said: @valor_175 said: @midnightdragon18 said: @valor_175 said: @midnightdragon18 said: @valor_175: so just to be clear, would it also work on someone like the grand priest or the living tribunal because they don't have any feats either ?

The Grand Priest? Sure.

The Living Tribunal? Absolutely not, as he holds a nigh-omnipotent power that would and has gotten around things like that.

there is no such thing as nigh-omnipotent, anything omnipotent is infinitely more powerful than anything that isn't.

Nigh-omnipotent means that you can do almost anything.

Wouldn't you agree that characters like the Living Tribunal would fit into that category?

no because the concept doesn't make sense. Almost infinite is infinitely smaller than infinite

if you can do almost anything and i can do anything, then i can do infinitely more things than you.

It makes sense, you even explained it just now, lol.

The Living Tribunal has been described as nigh-omnipotent before, and even as flat-out omnipotent if I'm not mistaken, so my initial point still stands.

it doesn't make sense because you can't be almost infinite. either your infinite or not, there can be no in between

we know the LT is not omnipotent because he has been killed, he was afraid of beyonder, and TOAA exist.

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#18 Posted by Otsdarva999 (58 posts) - - Show Bio

@metaljimmor: so just to be clear, genjutsu can affect anyone no matter how strong they are ? as long as they don't have any feats to resist it ?

Mental attacks are probably one of the only types of hax that I've never seen anyone complain about as far as NLFs go. Characters that operate at high tier and beyond usually have resistance to it anyway. Dragon Ball needs to catch up on that front.

it doesn't make sense because you can't be almost infinite. either your infinite or not, there can be no in between

we know the LT is omnipotent because he has been killed, he was afraid of beyonder, and TOAA exist.

Nigh omnipotence is a common phrase to describe certain types of fictional characters. It just means a character in practice is functionally omnipotent and can do just about anything, but they're just a peg lower on the cosmic hierarchy than whoever the actual omnipotent entity in the story is.

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#19 Posted by B_r023 (613 posts) - - Show Bio

Kaguya using infinite Tusukyomi was never shown on panel unless I forgot something and we were never given a timeline of when it happened either other then Zetsu's statement. Kaguya could have used it after Hagaromo started teaching people ninshu since Kaguya's entire beef was getting her chakra back.

Other than IT, no genjutsu would work on Jiren without a chakra network and if he is above time, I don't see how illusions can take him down.

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#20 Edited by iUseMyCajonas (2483 posts) - - Show Bio

Mind control has already failed on a drastically weaker opponent, magic/hax in Z are unviable because of the nature of ki which is why there aren't as many magic or hax users in the verse, they all without fail get powered through, even Dabura's spit and Buu's matter manipulation have been powered through. Complete erasure from all multiverses has also been powered through, along with being locked in time, in this show how strong you are is all that matters.

@metaljimmor said:

There's no reason to think it wouldn't. Nobody in Dragonball has resistance to actual mind attacks aside from Vegeta

Interesting sentence, honestly.

I'm kind of surprised there wasn't at least one telepath or illusionist in the Tournament of Power. It's such a common ability in fiction and would have put this argument to rest one way or another.

And now we know that you haven't been keeping up with the T.O.P or DBS in general.

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#21 Posted by God_Vulcan (9656 posts) - - Show Bio

"Can Jiren resist TP"

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#22 Edited by Paytience (3105 posts) - - Show Bio

@metaljimmor said:

There's no reason to think it wouldn't. Nobody in Dragonball has resistance to actual mind attacks aside from Vegeta, and Babidi's level of control is... Dubious at best.

I'm kind of surprised there wasn't at least one telepath or illusionist in the Tournament of Power. It's such a common ability in fiction and would have put this argument to rest one way or another.

Granted, Jiren could still casually solo the entire Naruto verse. He'd only be caught in a genjutsu if he for some reason chose to stand still long enough for it to happen.

There were. Roshi knocked them out.
People who claim there is no magic or telepathy in DB have never actually followed the original DB.

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#23 Posted by midnightdragon18 (9762 posts) - - Show Bio

@otsdarva999: being a peg lower than omnipotent doesn’t make logical sense

The gap between the two is infinite

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#24 Posted by God_Vulcan (9656 posts) - - Show Bio

there is no such thing as nigh-omnipotent, anything omnipotent is infinitely more powerful than anything that isn't.

Nigh-omnipotent is a tier not an actual level of power.

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#25 Edited by Marc_55 (5630 posts) - - Show Bio

@b_r023 said:

Kaguya could have used it after Hagaromo started teaching people ninshu

No, that's specifically not the order of events. Kaguya IT's the world to quell war and prepare a Zetsu army, later seeing her kids possess chakra causes her to go crazy and make a Jūbi to attack them. They defeat her, deal the Gedō in the moon, Hamura goes to watch over her, then Hagoromo goes on to spread chakra and Nishū to the world.

Also, the chakra network thing isn't even a canon requirement. So it's moot.

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#26 Posted by Otsdarva999 (58 posts) - - Show Bio

@otsdarva999: being a peg lower than omnipotent doesn’t make logical sense

The gap between the two is infinite

I think you're overthinking that concept a bit too much, tbh.

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#27 Posted by MetalJimmor (4878 posts) - - Show Bio

@paytience: @iusemycajonas:

In the future, it would be nice if you elaborated on what the user was missing instead of jumping to accusations of not following the story. It took me a while to figure out you were talking about Decori, who I've quite forgotten about at this point.

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In which Roshi fails to resist her illusions, states that Goku and the others are vulnerable to such tactics, and uses his own hax to defeat her rather than raw power.

If there are other instances I've forgotten I fully encourage you to point it out. The goal of these discussions is to discuss, not try to one up each other.

so just to be clear, genjutsu can affect anyone no matter how strong they are ? as long as they don't have any feats to resist it ?

Yes. With the exception of characters who you can reasonably assume can't have their minds taken over like, say, a character who is made of pure energy and doesn't have a biological brain or something. I've often thought Sasori might be immune to genjutsu for this reason, but I don't think my theory was ever tested.

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#28 Posted by sladerulez (6656 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh god...

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#29 Edited by iUseMyCajonas (2483 posts) - - Show Bio

@metaljimmor said:

@paytience: @iusemycajonas:

In the future, it would be nice if you elaborated on what the user was missing instead of jumping to accusations of not following the story. It took me a while to figure out you were talking about Decori, who I've quite forgotten about at this point.

Loading Video...

In which Roshi fails to resist her illusions, states that Goku and the others are vulnerable to such tactics, and uses his own hax to defeat her rather than raw power.

If there are other instances I've forgotten I fully encourage you to point it out. The goal of these discussions is to discuss, not try to one up each other.

My bad for being aggressive I went to sleep right after posting that and just got out of dealing w some annoying kid lmao.

But Roshi constantly and consistently gets surprised by things the entire tournament, him saying that they're vulnerable to "such tactics" doesn't really mean anything.

The Z fighters in a later episode get caught in an illusion, mess around a bit and then

No Caption Provided
Something they can all do, Gohan also could sense his energy.
Something they can all do, Gohan also could sense his energy.

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Sense the energy through the illusion, pinpoint the caster's location through the illusion, and then blast him away.

...And yeah there was more than one illusion caster in this tournament lmao.

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#30 Posted by MetalJimmor (4878 posts) - - Show Bio

@iusemycajonas:

No worries. I understand how sometimes your frustrations can spill over to other users.

I must've not caught this episode. I've been watching through Youtube and sometimes I don't catch a video that's been uploaded or it gets taken down before I can see it.

The ability to sense people while inside an illusion will definitely allow them to beat any genjutsu user who isn't using a paralysis oriented genjutsu, though I've always assumed this was something they can do since a Naruto ninja won't have a technique to mess with a sense Naruto ninjas don't even have. This does suggest they can't dispel or break out of an illusion however, but it also shows they can fight back while inside one.

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#31 Edited by iUseMyCajonas (2483 posts) - - Show Bio

@metaljimmor said:

@iusemycajonas:

No worries. I understand how sometimes your frustrations can spill over to other users.

I must've not caught this episode. I've been watching through Youtube and sometimes I don't catch a video that's been uploaded or it gets taken down before I can see it.

The ability to sense people while inside an illusion will definitely allow them to beat any genjutsu user who isn't using a paralysis oriented genjutsu, though I've always assumed this was something they can do since a Naruto ninja won't have a technique to mess with a sense Naruto ninjas don't even have. This does suggest they can't dispel or break out of an illusion however, but it also shows they can fight back while inside one.

Yeah, they still get "caught" in the genjutsu, but would still have full awareness of their surroundings including the ability to tell and visually see where the caster of it would be. Which I guess is the answer to this thread. Their mind wouldn't get altered in any way shape or form by it. They're completely aware of what's happening the entire way through.

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#32 Posted by magnus_carlsen3 (427 posts) - - Show Bio

@metaljimmor said:

There's no reason to think it wouldn't. Nobody in Dragonball has resistance to actual mind attacks aside from Vegeta, and Babidi's level of control is... Dubious at best.

I'm kind of surprised there wasn't at least one telepath or illusionist in the Tournament of Power. It's such a common ability in fiction and would have put this argument to rest one way or another.

Granted, Jiren could still casually solo the entire Naruto verse. He'd only be caught in a genjutsu if he for some reason chose to stand still long enough for it to happen.

There were. Roshi knocked them out.

People who claim there is no magic or telepathy in DB have never actually followed the original DB.

Also Krillin and Gohan used to spar again each other using their mind only.

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#33 Posted by Paytience (3105 posts) - - Show Bio

@paytience: @iusemycajonas:

In the future, it would be nice if you elaborated on what the user was missing instead of jumping to accusations of not following the story. It took me a while to figure out you were talking about Decori, who I've quite forgotten about at this point.

Loading Video...

In which Roshi fails to resist her illusions, states that Goku and the others are vulnerable to such tactics, and uses his own hax to defeat her rather than raw power.

If there are other instances I've forgotten I fully encourage you to point it out. The goal of these discussions is to discuss, not try to one up each other.

@midnightdragon18 said:

so just to be clear, genjutsu can affect anyone no matter how strong they are ? as long as they don't have any feats to resist it ?

Yes. With the exception of characters who you can reasonably assume can't have their minds taken over like, say, a character who is made of pure energy and doesn't have a biological brain or something. I've often thought Sasori might be immune to genjutsu for this reason, but I don't think my theory was ever tested.

I wasn't throwing accusations at anyone. But DB characters have been fighting against TP, TK and Magic since Dragonball. It's just that the characters got to a level where most users could not reasonably beat them with it. These were things that were pretty common in early DB, but since they were underplayed in Z, a lot of people assume they are something new or unfamiliar to the Z fighters. Frieza has TK that can planet bust as of ROF and enough mental strength that even when he was dead and completely immobilized, he got stronger and better just by thinking about it.

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#34 Posted by magnus_carlsen3 (427 posts) - - Show Bio

@metaljimmor said:

There's no reason to think it wouldn't. Nobody in Dragonball has resistance to actual mind attacks aside from Vegeta, and Babidi's level of control is... Dubious at best.

I'm kind of surprised there wasn't at least one telepath or illusionist in the Tournament of Power. It's such a common ability in fiction and would have put this argument to rest one way or another.

Granted, Jiren could still casually solo the entire Naruto verse. He'd only be caught in a genjutsu if he for some reason chose to stand still long enough for it to happen.

There were. Roshi knocked them out.

People who claim there is no magic or telepathy in DB have never actually followed the original DB.

Also Krillin and Gohan used to spar again each other using their mind only.

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#35 Posted by MetalJimmor (4878 posts) - - Show Bio

@iusemycajonas:

I can agree with that. So the only genjutsu that is a real threat to them are the ones that prevent physical mobility. And even then they could theoretically just power up and blow the caster away since they don't need to move their limbs to do that.

Like I said initially, Jiren pretty effortlessly solos the Narutoverse even if he can be caught by genjutsu.

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#36 Posted by iUseMyCajonas (2483 posts) - - Show Bio

@iusemycajonas:

I can agree with that. So the only genjutsu that is a real threat to them are the ones that prevent physical mobility. And even then they could theoretically just power up and blow the caster away since they don't need to move their limbs to do that.

Like I said initially, Jiren pretty effortlessly solos the Narutoverse even if he can be caught by genjutsu.

I feel like the resting power of Jiren would just require him to move to break out of a paralysis genjutsu, and that he would never have to power up to break it in the first place.

Paralysis Genjutsu has never worked against someone of his calibur before.

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#37 Posted by MetalJimmor (4878 posts) - - Show Bio

@iusemycajonas:

The genjutsu works by making your body believe it can't move. There's nothing actually there holding you back, it's just so real that even if you know it's an illusion you feel like you can't move. Strength and power doesn't really enter the equation.

It's like sleep paralysis in real life. Nothing is there but because your mind is convinced it can't move it can't.

But then Jiren explodes the user with his stare attack. He doesn't need to move to kill.

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#38 Posted by Laiks Stake (549 posts) - - Show Bio

The IT would work because works in beings without chakra ( cats ).

Normal genjutsus, no.

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#39 Posted by MetalJimmor (4878 posts) - - Show Bio

@paytience:

Can you share some examples? I haven't seen the OG Dragonball series since I was a kid and my memory of that time is very, very fuzzy. Outside of the big fights like Roshi vs Goku, Goku vs Tien, King Piccolo's stuff, etc. I think I vaguely remember Goku fighting a mummy once. Also that awesome pterosaur man with the gummy attack.

I do remember Roshi using hypnotism once, but that's pretty far below the kind of mental attacks we're talking about here.

Telekinesis is a separate power from telepathy. Not all great telekinetic characters in fiction are automatically resistant to telepathic mental attacks.

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#40 Posted by Gaoron (4415 posts) - - Show Bio

Probably not, ki users have mind defenses and Jiren being a god tier should have pretty high defenses.

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#41 Posted by Fabricolage (499 posts) - - Show Bio

Doubt it, considering his eye powers, great strength, and being able to escaped being trapped by time itself. He has a lot going for him.

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#42 Edited by TheVivas (16545 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow, this is the worst bait thread I’ve seen in a while.

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#43 Posted by TheWatcherKing (10456 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes

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#44 Posted by Thekillerklok (7563 posts) - - Show Bio

Probably depends on who uses the genjutsu.

Bob the omnipotent stick figure would genjutsu the crap out of Jiren for example.

also squig theory.

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#45 Posted by jashugan (1389 posts) - - Show Bio

@midnightdragon18: Obviously Genjutsu can't just affect anyone. Characters with other mind based powers like telepathy, gen jutsu or ninjas can stop gen jutsu.

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#46 Edited by ITouchedTheBoat (2087 posts) - - Show Bio

I feel as though there's a direct link between Power Levels and Hax immunity in DBS. So I think Jiren might be affected

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#47 Posted by sladerulez (6656 posts) - - Show Bio

Let the thread die.

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#48 Posted by Just_Banter (11816 posts) - - Show Bio

"Could Professor X use TP on Jiren?"

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#49 Posted by katanalauncher (2949 posts) - - Show Bio

DBS characters are weird that top tier character process skyfather level raw power, but they lack the hax and resistance almost every skyfather has.

Only comic analogue I can think of is superboy prime, but even he got some hax resistance due to being born in earth prime.

I think higher level genjutsu would work on him.

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#50 Posted by IG-88 (2431 posts) - - Show Bio

He's Jiren, so I doubt it.