Worse scene: "Martha moment" (BvS) or "Dance off" (GotG)?

The year was 2022....

Lets see a foreshadowed resolution keeping with one of the themes (mother's and their sacrifices) established in the opening of BvS vs a random solution to keep Ronin from touching his hammer to the ground. Even if you don't like the BvS it's pretty obvious which scene was more thoughtful and IMO Gunn could have written a better ending.

GoG is a comedy movie so no cringe . BvS try to be very serious and symbolic , but the Martha scene was ..a little strange

Martha, easily.

Don’t care about an attempt to be “thoughtful” when it feels like it falls completely flat, is forced, and feels like the point gets invalidated not too long later

@mike_fowler: how does it get invalidated? Batman keeps his promise, Martha did not die.

@heatforce:

Because when the guy is supposed to come to the realization of, “I’ve been a monster, trying to kill this guy like I have and becoming the same guy that took my parents away” said realization gets invalidated when he’s absolutely killing the mooks in the warehouse scene not long after

No he comes to that realization at the end of the movie when he doesn't brand Lex. Per his line at the funeral "men are still good, we can do better, we have to." Quite literally the Martha moment was "oh shiz, I've been a dick to Superman and his mother is in danger. Im going to make it right". It was Lois begging for mercy that caused batman to self reflect and it was Supe's sacrifice to kill DD that inspired batman to course correct.

@heatforce:

No, quite literally the moment was “I’m becoming the same man that murdered my parents that night” hence the flashback right after it’s said to drive that parallel home. It’s supposed to be him realizing he was about to murder a man in cold blood. It‘s supposed to be the turning point of his worldview up to that point in the film (Which has basically been a disregard for human life and obsessive paranoia)

Hell, Snyder flat out said a couple years back that it’s supposed to be him coming to that realization IN THAT MOMENT (becoming the thing he hates and basically becoming the murderer of his parents). That’s how he approached coming up with that scene as a storyteller

Cringy ass GOTG. At least the BvS scene tried to have a meaning behind it, “Dance Off” was just there to be another corny ass MCU moment.

@mike_fowler: Wait so you mean to tell me that an entire character arc was supposed to be addressed in that one line and all the other following dialogue and scenes were simply out of place? The expression "can't see the forest for the trees" applies here imo - you are head canoning a scene while ignoring the context of later scenes/ dialogue. Yes the martha moment was to make Batman realize Clark was never the enemy and that he was becoming that which killed his parents. But it also highlighted the fact that saving Martha was the start of Batman's redemption, not his finale so yes people died so Batman could save Martha.

Dance off made sense, Peter being the music lover he is asking Ronan to a dance off is completely in character, and it's not like the dance off saved the universe, it was literally just a distraction for Drax to shoot Ronan. BvS on the other hand....no. Just no.

@chris2kzombieki: it made sense? Sure if you believed Ronan was an idiot. What should have happened is Starlord attempts his distraction, Ronan doesn't fall for it and he gets beaten/ outsmarted in better fashion. No need to sacrifice the villain's intelligence for a chuckle. You could've still had a funny scene while Ronan maintained his rational imo.

@heatforce:

> Wait so you mean to tell me that an entire character arc was supposed to be addressed in that one line and all the other following dialogue and scenes were simply out of place?

Oh, right, because that’s obviously what I’m saying…

I’ll make this clear once, if you’re gonna put on some condescending mask, don’t bother responding.

> you are head canoning a scene while ignoring the context of later scenes/ dialogue.

Tell me ANYWHERE that I used head canon? No, I’m taking and acknowledging what Zack Snyder flat out said is the point of the scene, my problem with it comes precisely BECAUSE of the context of later scenes (Namely, the warehouse). It makes the shit flat out inconsistent with itself.

> Yes the martha moment was to make Batman realize Clark was never the enemy and that he was becoming that which killed his parents.

Yes, becoming a murderer that kills people with a disregard for human life, yes.

> But it also highlighted the fact that saving Martha was the start of Batman's redemption, not his finale so yes people died so Batman could save Martha.

Cool, and I’m saying that Bruce flat out killing those guys to do it completely fumbles the intended point (which has been made clear by Snyder, through his own damn statements) of the Martha scene.

I’ll make this clear, you are not going to change my mind on this, simple as that, so I’m leaving it here, with all due respect.

If some idiot stopped in front of you and started dancing, what would you do? If you say continue to destroy the planet you're lying. Anyone would at least pause for a few seconds.

I hated the dance scene with a passion

Dance scene is the top 5 film scenes of 21st century

Martha, no contest.

Dance off isn't even bad. Martha on the other hand is widely considered as one of the worst CBM moment.

The dance off scene actually makes sense in context; Ronan who is a fanatical warlord, who only knows brutality and subjugation of his enemies,is about the destroy his millenia enemy planet and this dude just starts dancing, doing weird movements with his body, it's baffling to him. My reaction would also be "What are you doing!?"

People hate on the Martha scene so much, and I don't understand why. The way the line was delivered could maybe be considered as "cringe", but the idea behind it makes perfect sense and fits the theme very well.

No it doesn't, so they have the same name thats so stupid. "I was just trying to kill you but since our mother has the same name we good!" If Supermans mom had any other name, he would be dead. Like... Batman was just trying to kill him...but since their mothers have the same name they're best buds like what?

Thank you.

As cringe as the dance scene was the Martha thing was WAY to much of a disaster due to being a major plot point.

@chris2kzombieki: I think the point was that he had a human mother instead of an alien name. Not that i like the scene either

You don't understand the point of the scene then. It's not that simple.

But like no one gets that conclusion like what? I've heard the argument that he's surprised Superman had parents but Bruce literally says " I bet your parents taught you, that you mean something." Like the dance isn't even close to as bad. It's cringe sure but Peters like into old school crap. Makes sense for his characters.

The point of the scene is that their mothers have the same name, or he's surprised Clarks mom has a human name. Either of which is just as dumb. If clark had said ANY other name, he'd be dead. The reason Bruce doesn't kill him is because both their mothers names are Martha. There is no second mean, no deeper reason, thats it. If I'm getting it wrong, thats another bad thing about the scene. It's so confusing and stupid. The dance off is not only in character for Peter, but it's a genuine reaction everyone would have if some jackass came up too you and started dancing.

@geekryan: Are you saying the dance off scene is worse? Cause it sure as hell isn't. It's not that Bruce doesn't know clark has parents. I quote, " I bet your parents taught you, that you mean something." So clearly it isn't that. So what is it if you're some movie genius?

Dance Off wasn’t even cringe? It was already established that Peter is that type of character. Martha was just meh

GOTG was never going to be a 10/10 for me. Ronan was just too much of the generic boring bad guy

Still cringe. But it's the better of the two.

The point of that scene wasn't that they had the same name, but rather that Clark having a mother was a direct invalidation of Bruce's justification for killing Clark being "You were never a god, you were never even a man" (paraphrasing a tad, but you get the point). Him saying Martha just brought PTSD from his own mother's death.

That being said, the scene still sucks and could have had much better execution.

@brogokudestroys: That makes it even worse! Bruce knew he had parents, having mentioned it while he was dragging him.

It fits, yes. My issue comes from the fact that it doesn't really make any sense, and also happens to fit right in the category of cringe. The execution was just too goofy to actually take seriously, so all the meaning gets thrown out the window

LMAOOO, that Martha moment is the equivalent of Scarlet Witch's, "I am a mothaaaaa"...

But still, GotG is worse...

gog was cringe, but Martha broke the internet.

The GotG scene makes sense for Star-Lord's character and it worked well as a juxtaposition to Ronan being melodramatic with this planet destroying speech, and so his reaction makes sense too. Honestly, I've never seen anyone outside of CV finding that scene cringe.

The Martha scene could've been done so much better. If it was, it could've been one of the best and most emotional CBM scenes. That said, it is massively over-hated by people who still don't understand the scene 6 years later, with posts in this very thread proving it.

LOL I’m a motha was so cringe I laughed.

@mike_fowler:

Because when the guy is supposed to come to the realization of, “I’ve been a monster, trying to kill this guy like I have and becoming the same guy that took my parents away” said realization gets invalidated when he’s absolutely killing the mooks in the warehouse scene not long after

Sigh. The conclusion here doesn't logically follow from the premises. Bruce choosing not to kill Clark when he recognises the latter's humanity (shown through him begging for his mother in his final moments, an experience Bruce can relate to having had a mother die himself) because he acknowledges how he has vilified and dehumanised him ("You were never a God. You were never even a man." / "You're not brave. Men are brave.") is not remotely invalidated by him killing a bunch of sociopathic murderers in self-defence. If you can't distinguish between Bruce realising that he's becoming no different than Joe Chill by actively hunting and killing an innocent (even to the point of murdering him with a spear after he's already been subdued by gas), and Bruce killing a bunch of human trafficking shitheaps to rescue another innocent, then I can't help you. The issue isn't Bruce killing people in self-defence, it's the targeted cruelty (hence why he forsakes the Bat brand at the end of the film; it's an unnecessary death sentence for all who receive it).

this.

I Love BvS , but i feel that scene certain needed more context established to work.. like.. audience Had to think their way and "Assume" this was the reason "martha" made them from enemies to friends in.. 5 minutes.

GoTG for me here , the dance off scene actually caught the Audience off guard too , and it's followed up by one of THE most emotional and awesome scenes in the MCU..

Martha scene for me.

Tbf if I'm about to beat someone up and they suddenly do a breakdancing in front of me, I'm gonna take few seconds to wonder wtf is this dude doing.

*sigh*

6 damn years and people still don't get it. I will admit that it does prove the scene was handled in a messed up way.

Irregardless, the point wasn't that their mothers shared a name. The point wasn't Batman just realized Superman has parents (people who defend the scene like this, you didn't understand it either). The point was that seeing Clark begging for Martha's life, Bruce is forced to self reflect through a flashback where *ATTENTION* his father's LAST word was ALSO Martha, which in itself puts Batman in a place where HE is now the criminal, the killer, the bad guy, and Superman, the victim, the innocent, the good guy that begs for the life of another, not even his. Basically, it's a moment where Batman realizes he's becoming everything he was fighting against. The theatrics over "why did you say that name" are simply him being triggered, looking for an answer that will reassure he isn't the bad guy, and when Lois says "it's his mother name", he has no other option but to confess. He's becoming the murderous Joe Chill, and it's the innocent "Wayne(s)" he's about to kill.

I agree it's overconvoluted, overstuffed, overblown and even overacted. And the problem could've been solved if Snyder suppressed his hard on for religious imagezz and instead of the spear (because Jezuz) put a gun with Kryptonite bullets in Batman's hands, then this visual comparison/juxtaposition would be much more easier to see and digest.

I mean I applaud the intent to appeal to the most zealous geek (those who know that both heroes' mothers are named Martha, and making it a plot point), but you have to execute it properly. Still the overreaction to this scene is really forced. I for that matter think Thanos crying over Gamora was just as bad. Stark saying "I don't care, he killed my mother" is essentially a reverse-Martha moment. But I don't see anyone losing their shit over this ridiculous plot forced instances. And all it says to me that the clowns who still cry about this specific scene are full of shit.

@nevesytneves:

Lemme repeat this. You are not, going, to change my mind. I don’t need your “help”. Stop acting like I don’t understand what the scene is. I know what the scene is. All you’re doing is saying, “oh this is how the scene goes” like it’s not obvious.

Seriously, i respect the attempt to rationalize it, I really do, but these are things I’ve heard before, and it’s never convincing to me. Why is it so hard to believe that people would have a problem with Bruce essentially going, “I’ve spent so long dehumanizing this man, trying to kill him, but he’s human like the rest of us” and then proceeding to flat out kill actual human beings in the next major scene with him? Especially when a major part of his arc was also him bringing himself back from the darkness. Seriously, why? I can get and respect your rationalization if it, but that just doesn’t do it for me, at all

Extremely well said. Poorly implemented scene but so many people still never understood the scene and then dump on it in all the wrong ways.

If Superman had said any other name, Bruce would not have hesitated. Why would Superman refer to his mom by her first name? Why didn't Superman just tell Bruce that Lex had his mom? He didn't have to get in close, he tried like twice to convince Bruce to stop fighting. I personally believe that the acting during the scene was good, but not only were there better ways to deliver that message.

At least in the Dance Off it makes some sense. Not only is it a very in character thing for Quill, but it's something that would actually happen. If some random jackass started dancing in front of me, I'd question him too. The Martha scene itself is not in character for either.

@mike_fowler: You more or less just repeated your initial claim and said that the distinction drawn between executing somebody in cold blood and killing in self defence doesn't matter without actually explaining why. You insist that you're "not going to change your mind", which is fine, but then refuse to actually engage with the critique of your position in any meaningful way (instead just bleating "you're wrong").

You're enraged that I explained the scene to you and insist that you understand it, but then still arbitrarily dismiss the distinction that has been drawn between senseless and necessary violence (which is a key point of the film). Bruce's realisation surrounding Clark isn't just "oh he's human so I shouldn't kill him" it's "I've vilified and dehumanised an innocent man whose last action was to beg, not for his life, but for his mother's". No matter how you try to spin it, the point isn't about killing versus not killing, it's that Bruce has become needlessly cruel (hence branding criminals so they can die, even though he could just let them go to prison) to the point where his quest in the movie has been an attempt to murder an innocent man, thus condemning his mother to death (making Bruce no different from the mugger that was responsible for the death of his own parents).

Hell, in his final speech recognising the value of humanity, hope and optimism, Bruce still acknowledges the inevitability of death and violence ("We fight. We kill. We betray one another."). His realisation/moment of clarity is concerning how there is still a level of inherent goodness in man, and thus he has to do better than being pointlessly cruel.

None of this should be controversial. Everything I'm saying isn't just a poor attempt at rationalisation... it's literally baked into the themes of the movie, and is obviously internally coherent.

Dance off scene made sense, and was a desperate attempt at a distraction

Martha scene was plainly awful and made 0 sense