Will "Martha or Bucky is alive" make you powerless?

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Posted by Blueshoecant (1544 posts) 9 days, 23 hours ago

Poll: Will "Martha or Bucky is alive" make you powerless? (52 votes)

Yeah precisely 13%
Maybe, depends on situation 13%
Hell No, i won't fall for that bait 19%
Martha Yes, Bucky No 12%
Bucky Yes, Martha No 42%

Render you/ make you hesitate in a fight?

You as Batman in BvS or 2012 Endgame Cap

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#1 Posted by Heatforce (6796 posts) - - Show Bio

Wait...Martha. Moms before bros.

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#2 Edited by Crater_Maker (179 posts) - - Show Bio

I’m supposed to stop beating your ass because your mom has the same name as my deceased mother?

I would stop if you had information of my childhood friend still being alive because that is a loved one I can still save.

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#3 Posted by FaradaySloth (11905 posts) - - Show Bio

It’s kind of amazing how people still don’t understand the Martha scene. The execution was the bad part of it, the actual meaning is pretty good

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#4 Posted by Donnieboy16 (265 posts) - - Show Bio

@faradaysloth: I think it's more of a "it's so obvious you couldnt miss it but you still did somehow" thing.

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#5 Posted by Heatforce (6796 posts) - - Show Bio

@crater_maker: Batman didn't know who Clark was referring to. Only Clark knew Bruce's identity, not the other way around.

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#6 Edited by buttersdaman000 (23128 posts) - - Show Bio

@crater_maker said:

I’m supposed to stop beating your ass because your mom has the same name as my deceased mother?

I would stop if you had information of my childhood friend still being alive because that is a loved one I can still save.

What's more realistic,

A person in a fractured mental state with a very focused, obsessive yet irresolute goal being thrown off by not only the selflessness of the person he's trying to kill, but also that same person bringing up memories of the mother he lost and connecting his plight to his own.

Or,

A rather well adjusted person completely dropping his guard when his doppleganger, who he thought to be the TRICKSTER god, told him his old friend was alive???

Hmmm...might as well told Cap his parents were alive or his refrigerator was running lol

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#7 Posted by g2_ (12545 posts) - - Show Bio

Bucky Yes, Martha No

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#8 Posted by TakenStew22 (4462 posts) - - Show Bio
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#9 Edited by MAZAHS117 (13412 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, you bring my moms into a situation and I’m either going to stop and hear what you have to say, and/or continue to whoop your a$$ ...so I guess Martha.

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#10 Posted by ITouchedTheBoat (3676 posts) - - Show Bio

I’m supposed to stop beating your ass because your mom has the same name as my deceased mother?

I would stop if you had information of my childhood friend still being alive because that is a loved one I can still save.

it goes a lot deeper than that. Others have already explained why

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#11 Posted by Heatforce (6796 posts) - - Show Bio

@crater_maker said:

I’m supposed to stop beating your ass because your mom has the same name as my deceased mother?

I would stop if you had information of my childhood friend still being alive because that is a loved one I can still save.

What's more realistic,

A person in a fractured mental state with a very focused, obsessive yet irresolute goal being thrown off by not only the selflessness of the person he's trying to kill, but also that same person bringing up memories of the mother he lost and connecting his plight to his own.

Or,

A rather well adjusted person completely dropping his guard when his doppleganger, who he thought to be the TRICKSTER god, told him his old friend was alive???

Hmmm...might as well told Cap his parents were alive or his refrigerator was running lol

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#12 Edited by Crater_Maker (179 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000: @itouchedtheboat: @heatforce:

The question was putting me in Batman’s position and asked me what I would do in the situation. I gave my answer on what my response would be. My Father actually died a while ago and I’ve already come to terms with his death. Actually has a pretty common name as well so every time someone says “Mathew” I don’t automatically feel pain or relive my dad’s death. So thanks for telling me what would shock me the most.

What I wouldn't have come to terms with is if my closest friend who JUST died in my perspective might actually be alive. Not to mention Loki wouldn’t know who Bucky is. And given the fact I’ve been Frozen for 70 years fighting alongside Norse Gods, powerful Green monsters, and killing aliens I’d say it wouldn’t be put the realm of possibility.

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#13 Edited by Heatforce (6796 posts) - - Show Bio

@crater_maker said:

@buttersdaman000: @itouchedtheboat: @heatforce:

The question was putting me in Batman’s position and asked me what I would do in the situation. I gave my answer on what my response would be. My Father actually died a while ago and I’ve already come to terms with his death. Actually has a pretty common name as well so every time someone says “Mathew” I don’t automatically feel pain or relive my dad’s death. So thanks for telling me what would shock me the most.

What I wouldn't have come to terms with is if my closest friend who JUST died in my perspective might actually be alive. Not to mention Loki wouldn’t know who Bucky is. And given the fact I’ve been Frozen for 70 years fighting alongside Norse Gods, powerful Green monsters, and killing aliens I’d say it wouldn’t be put the realm of possibility.

Was he murdered in front of you though when you were like 6 or 7?

Edit: didn't want to come off as insensitive to this. I lost my father back in 2013.

Loki wouldn't know who Bucky is but why would phase 1 Cap know that?

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#14 Edited by Crater_Maker (179 posts) - - Show Bio

@heatforce:

I understand, thank you.

Cap wouldn’t know a lot of things about Loki. Doubt he would know he could read minds as well.

But again maybe we read the questions differently. I understand how Batman could be suffering from PTSD but when I think of myself in that situation I would more than likely think of my friend, who is more like a brother to me, who could still very much be alive and who I could save.

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#15 Posted by Mike_Fowler (5372 posts) - - Show Bio

Cap, mainly cause at that point I’d be assuming Bucky was dead, feel like it has more room to take me off guard

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#16 Posted by Heatforce (6796 posts) - - Show Bio

@heatforce:

I understand, thank you.

Cap wouldn’t know a lot of things about Loki. Doubt he would know he could read minds as well.

But again maybe we read the questions differently. I understand how Batman could be suffering from PTSD but when I think of myself in that situation I would more than likely think of my friend, who is more like a brother to me, who could still very much be alive and who I could save.

That i can understand.

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#17 Edited by ITouchedTheBoat (3676 posts) - - Show Bio

@heatforce said:
@crater_maker said:

@buttersdaman000: @itouchedtheboat: @heatforce:

The question was putting me in Batman’s position and asked me what I would do in the situation. I gave my answer on what my response would be. My Father actually died a while ago and I’ve already come to terms with his death. Actually has a pretty common name as well so every time someone says “Mathew” I don’t automatically feel pain or relive my dad’s death. So thanks for telling me what would shock me the most.

What I wouldn't have come to terms with is if my closest friend who JUST died in my perspective might actually be alive. Not to mention Loki wouldn’t know who Bucky is. And given the fact I’ve been Frozen for 70 years fighting alongside Norse Gods, powerful Green monsters, and killing aliens I’d say it wouldn’t be put the realm of possibility.

Was he murdered in front of you though when you were like 6 or 7?

Edit: didn't want to come off as insensitive to this. I lost my father back in 2013.

Loki wouldn't know who Bucky is but why would phase 1 Cap know that?

yeah that's why I didn't reply to this. lol

my dad was murdered when he went to visit his home country when I was 10 and I'm not gonna lie it's been over a decade now and I still get mad and full of rage with the idea. Especially since everybody around me just kind of went along with their lives and didn't seem to care. We went to the country he was murdered and I saw his corpse all pale and lifeless, and every time I encounter something that reminds me of my dad it triggers that image...lol I think I have PTSD

I'm sorry for your loss, but personally speaking the Batman scene hits home a lot more to me, considering one of my best friends from elementary school (to this day he's still one of my closest friends) shares that same name as my father but I only ever call him by his last name and never once said his first name...I'm not one to be dramatic about things but these sorts of stuff really does dig deep

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#18 Posted by Heatforce (6796 posts) - - Show Bio

@heatforce said:
@crater_maker said:

@buttersdaman000: @itouchedtheboat: @heatforce:

The question was putting me in Batman’s position and asked me what I would do in the situation. I gave my answer on what my response would be. My Father actually died a while ago and I’ve already come to terms with his death. Actually has a pretty common name as well so every time someone says “Mathew” I don’t automatically feel pain or relive my dad’s death. So thanks for telling me what would shock me the most.

What I wouldn't have come to terms with is if my closest friend who JUST died in my perspective might actually be alive. Not to mention Loki wouldn’t know who Bucky is. And given the fact I’ve been Frozen for 70 years fighting alongside Norse Gods, powerful Green monsters, and killing aliens I’d say it wouldn’t be put the realm of possibility.

Was he murdered in front of you though when you were like 6 or 7?

Edit: didn't want to come off as insensitive to this. I lost my father back in 2013.

Loki wouldn't know who Bucky is but why would phase 1 Cap know that?

yeah that's why I didn't reply to this. lol

my dad was murdered when he went to visit his home country when I was 10 and I'm not gonna lie it's been over a decade now and I still get mad and full of rage with the idea. Especially since everybody around me just kind of went along with their lives and didn't seem to care.

I'm sorry for your loss, but personally speaking the Batman scene hits home a lot more to me, considering one of my best friends from elementary school (to this day he's still one of my closest friends) shares that same name as my father but I only ever call him by his last name and never once said his first name...I'm not one to be dramatic about things but these sorts of stuff really does dig deep

Damm dude. I can't imagine what it's like to lose a parent to murder especially at that age.

Alright this thread was supposed to be funny but now it is sad 😔

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#19 Edited by ninetoadclown (94 posts) - - Show Bio

The part that I found so badly executed was why would Clark say Martha and not “my mom”, simple reason, they wanted to use the badly thought up plot line

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#20 Posted by Ghostodoofus2 (2013 posts) - - Show Bio

"Half-Life 3 is in Area 51"

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#21 Posted by Mrnoital (8368 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000: @itouchedtheboat: @heatforce:

The question was putting me in Batman’s position and asked me what I would do in the situation. I gave my answer on what my response would be. My Father actually died a while ago and I’ve already come to terms with his death. Actually has a pretty common name as well so every time someone says “Mathew” I don’t automatically feel pain or relive my dad’s death. So thanks for telling me what would shock me the most.

What I wouldn't have come to terms with is if my closest friend who JUST died in my perspective might actually be alive. Not to mention Loki wouldn’t know who Bucky is. And given the fact I’ve been Frozen for 70 years fighting alongside Norse Gods, powerful Green monsters, and killing aliens I’d say it wouldn’t be put the realm of possibility.

so you're saying you'd think it's possible for you're friend to have survived to be around 85-100, but it's impossible for a trickster god to be able to know anything about your past?

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#22 Edited by buttersdaman000 (23128 posts) - - Show Bio

The part that I found so badly executed was why would Clark say Martha and not “my mom”, simple reason, they wanted to use the badly thought up plot line

If he says "Save my mom" and Batman ends up killing him, what useful information did he relay to allow Batman to accomplish that?? A smart person would try to get as much information out as possible, hence why he said "Save Martha". Batman would have a better chance of saving her with a first name. He could look up missing persons -- since Martha was kidnapped as she was closing up IIRC -- narrow the searches down to Martha and go from there. In fact, it would've made more sense if he said "Save Martha Kent" but I figure Snyder thought it would be too expository.

It's really not that hard to deduce.

@buttersdaman000: @itouchedtheboat: @heatforce:

The question was putting me in Batman’s position and asked me what I would do in the situation.

True, fair enough. Sorry for your loss.

I just think the resolution to the Cap vs Cap fight is wildly stupid, and the fact that more people don't have a problem with it is amazing to me.

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#23 Posted by The_Agent_Of_Chaos (986 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000: 100% Agreed. If he stopped and believing Loki was telling the truth the scene is even worse lmao.

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#24 Posted by Crater_Maker (179 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000:

Thanks you.

I can agree with that. He should have known it wasn’t Loki when he started winning, considering Loki was owning him in their first fight.

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#25 Posted by Blueshoecant (1544 posts) - - Show Bio
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#26 Posted by Mike_Fowler (5372 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000: people probably don’t have a problem with it cause of the fact that it’s not the first time the mention of Bucky has caused Cap to hesitate, least, that’s the reason I’d assume

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#27 Posted by The_Agent_Of_Chaos (986 posts) - - Show Bio

Both are cringe.

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#28 Posted by RBT (29969 posts) - - Show Bio

It’s kind of amazing how people still don’t understand the Martha scene. The execution was the bad part of it, the actual meaning is pretty good

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#29 Posted by GateOfBabylon (5028 posts) - - Show Bio

It’s kind of amazing how people still don’t understand the Martha scene. The execution was the bad part of it, the actual meaning is pretty good

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#30 Posted by Ready_4_Madness (18209 posts) - - Show Bio

@ninetoadclown: it’d be easier for Batman to narrow down the victim, if he knew the victims name.

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#31 Posted by Ready_4_Madness (18209 posts) - - Show Bio

Both would catch you off guard.

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#32 Posted by eri123 (5258 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Posted by SocaJunkie (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

Who uses their mother’s first name? Bad scene.

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#34 Posted by buttersdaman000 (23128 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000: people probably don’t have a problem with it cause of the fact that it’s not the first time the mention of Bucky has caused Cap to hesitate, least, that’s the reason I’d assume

When did it cause him to hesitate before this? Also he's literally fighting who he believes to be Loki, the trickster god. There's no way you can argue what Cap did is rational.

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#35 Posted by Jack_Hart (1029 posts) - - Show Bio

"Loki" also had Cap's watch with Peggy's picture in it, which what first cast doubt in 2012 Cap's mind as to who he was fighting.

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#36 Posted by Heatforce (6796 posts) - - Show Bio

The part that I found so badly executed was why would Clark say Martha and not “my mom”, simple reason, they wanted to use the badly thought up plot line

Bats already acknowledged Superman had parents when he was dragging him to the kryptonite spear. Safe to say he didn't care Supes was someones son but he did care about a name that was triggering him since th3 begining of the movie. They even had a flashback to those moments when Clark said Martha's name.

All in all Lois doesn't get enough credit. Batman may have hesited but she threw herself on top of Clark, changing Batman's perspective on his mission.

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#37 Edited by Heatforce (6796 posts) - - Show Bio

@ready_4_madness: @buttersdaman000:

It's crazy how we've gone from defending the Martha scene in BvS to comparing it to this scene in Endgame.

Thanks Feige and Russos for making our point and showing the entire nontroversy was all about clickbait articles.

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#38 Edited by Mike_Fowler (5372 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000: civil war, Crossbones talking about Bucky is what made Cap freeze (and gave him enough time to try to blow himself up, kinda, you know, being a main catalyst for the rest of the movie)

If anything, that instance is probably why Cap knew that’d throw his 2012 self off a bit

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#39 Posted by Mr_Shazam0920 (5755 posts) - - Show Bio

I think the Bucky is alive thing shows a lot of growth in Cap’s character.

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#40 Edited by adamTRMM (9544 posts) - - Show Bio

When that Bucky thing happened in the theater I literally laughed.

Where are all the meme suckers when you need them?

Bucky Yes, Martha No 46%

Bwahahah gotta love the denial with that one

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#41 Posted by Ready_4_Madness (18209 posts) - - Show Bio

@heatforce: the MCU bias on this site is undeniable at this point tbh.

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#42 Posted by buttersdaman000 (23128 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000: civil war, Crossbones talking about Bucky is what made Cap freeze (and gave him enough time to try to blow himself up, kinda, you know, being a main catalyst for the rest of the movie)

If anything, that instance is probably why Cap knew that’d throw his 2012 self off a bit

Civil War came after he knew Bucky was alive. It has nothing to do with how 2012 Cap, the one who believed Bucky was dead, should behave. Like I said, from his perspective it would be like throwing him off guard by telling him his parents were alive.

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#43 Edited by ninetoadclown (94 posts) - - Show Bio

@heatforce:

If it had just been Lois diving over him and saying, “lex has his mother, he is making him fight you.”

Cool, fine, good scene.

But the bribing up the name idea was just low rent.

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#44 Posted by Heatforce (6796 posts) - - Show Bio

@ninetoadclown: He didn't just say the name though. When Bats was about to kill Supes, the first thing Supes says is "You're letting him kill Martha." A lot of people seem to misremember the scene and wrongly state Supes said "Save Martha" first. To each their own though as far as scenes go. As a dceu stan, I'm just happy we now have an example of something similar in the mcu; mostly for the memes.

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#45 Posted by Heatforce (6796 posts) - - Show Bio
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#46 Edited by Mike_Fowler (5372 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000:

Whether or not he knew Bucky was alive has jack to do with what was, well, asked. Either way, Crossbones could’ve said what he said regarding Bucky with Cap having no knowledge regarding Bucky being alive, and he’d still hesitate from how out of nowhere it’d seem for Crossbones to mention that. From 2012 Cap’s perspective, being told that his best friend that he thought he saw die was still alive (right after seeing his doppelgänger have that picture of Peggy on him) is gonna make him hesitate. Because Unlike with his parents, he never actually got confirmation Bucky was dead. There’s a difference between seeing your best friend fall into whats essentially the unknown (and then you get frozen not long after) vs watching your mom die of TB and your dad having died in the war (both having happened a good while prior)

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#47 Posted by FangDaNerd (1712 posts) - - Show Bio

Bucky yes, Martha no.

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#48 Edited by buttersdaman000 (23128 posts) - - Show Bio

@mike_fowler said:

@buttersdaman000:

Whether or not he knew Bucky was alive has jack to do with what was, well, asked. Either way, Crossbones could’ve said what he said regarding Bucky with Cap having no knowledge regarding Bucky being alive, and he’d still hesitate from how out of nowhere it’d seem for Crossbones to mention that. From 2012 Cap’s perspective, being told that his best friend that he thought he saw die was still alive (right after seeing his doppelgänger have that picture of Peggy on him) is gonna make him hesitate. Because Unlike with his parents, he never actually got confirmation Bucky was dead. There’s a difference between seeing your best friend fall into whats essentially the unknown (and then you get frozen not long after) vs watching your mom die of TB and your dad having died in the war (both having happened a good while prior)

No, it's literally the defining difference. Cap in Civil War knew Bucky was alive, therefore information about Bucky gave him pause. 2012 Cap in Endgame had already come to terms with Buckys death, had no reason to believe he was alive, and was fighting an enemy he knew to be the god of tricks. This is indefensible.

From 2012 Cap’s perspective, being told that his best friend that he thought he saw die was still alive (right after seeing his doppelgänger have that picture of Peggy on him) is gonna make him hesitate.

How many times are you going to ignore the fact that he thought he was fighting the god of tricks?? He already saw Loki change his own form, but conjuring a locket is supposedly outside the realm of possibility?

There’s a difference between seeing your best friend fall into whats essentially the unknown (and then you get frozen not long after) vs watching your mom die of TB and your dad having died in the war (both having happened a good while prior)

There is no difference. He thought Bucky was dead. He came to terms with his death in TFA. You don't need confirmation when you see someone fall from hundreds of feet. That's why he was blindsided when Bucky turned out to be alive in TWS. Nothing about his behavior up until the reveal suggested that he was waiting on "confirmation" before actually believing Bucky to be dead. If you want to be nitpicky, fine but that doesn't change what was shown.

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#49 Edited by Mike_Fowler (5372 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000:

Where, is there any evidence that he actually came to terms with his “death” in TFA? The man ends up being frozen not too long after. He became focused on avenging his death, but that ain’t coming to terms with it. If anything, him being frozen kept him from coming to terms with a lot of things that happened in the past.

Is there ANY reason for Cap to believe that Loki would know anything about him besides generic information? Answer that question, and don’t just state “oh he’s the god of tricks, of course he’d likely know”. Is there anything Loki does to Cap that would imply that he knows the important people in his life? Cause the impression Loki gave off is that he only knows him as being a man out of time (even just calls him the soldier)

And what was shown is that Cap, in the end, knows that anything concerning Bucky is likely to make him hesitate in the middle of a fight. You may call that nit picky, but it’s what’s shown

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#50 Posted by buttersdaman000 (23128 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000:

Where, is there any evidence that he actually came to terms with his “death” in TFA? The man ends up being frozen not too long after. He became focused on avenging his death, but that ain’t coming to terms with it. If anything, him being frozen kept him from coming to terms with a lot of things that happened in the past.

Is there ANY reason for Cap to believe that Loki would know anything about him besides generic information? Answer that question, and don’t just state “oh he’s the god of tricks, of course he’d likely know”. Is there anything Loki does to Cap that would imply that he knows the important people in his life? Cause the impression Loki gave off is that he only knows him as being a man out of time (even just calls him the soldier)

And what was shown is that Cap, in the end, knows that anything concerning Bucky is likely to make him hesitate in the middle of a fight. You may call that nit picky, but it’s what’s shown

Where, is there any evidence that he actually came to terms with his “death” in TFA?

When he mourns his death

The man ends up being frozen not too long after. He became focused on avenging his death, but that ain’t coming to terms with it. If anything, him being frozen kept him from coming to terms with a lot of things that happened in the past.

Him being frozen is irrelevant. He's also not trying to avenge Buckys death. Where did you get this idea? Cap was fighting a war. He thought Bucky died in a war. He wasn't fighting to avenge his friends supposed death.

Is there ANY reason for Cap to believe that Loki would know anything about him besides generic information?

Is there ANY reason for him not? Loki went around shapeshifting, casting illusions, and mind controlling people yet you think Cap would think it impossible for him to do a little targeted trickery??

Answer that question, and don’t just state “oh he’s the god of tricks, of course he’d likely know”.

Answered it. And being the god of tricks is all I need. On the contrary, you have to contrive an illogical argument that directly contradicts canon as to why it makes sense for Captain America to somehow deduce that the trickster god he thought he was fighting wasn't actually tricking him therefore leading him to be "understandably" thrown off guard.....

And what was shown is that Cap, in the end, knows that anything concerning Bucky is likely to make him hesitate in the middle of a fight.

After he knew Bucky was alive. Unless you're trying to recursively use the fight we're debating to prove your point? If so, that won't work.