Why Knightfall Vader is stronger than Suited Darth Vader. (Legends)

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Edited By hellothere5432  Online

Since this seems to be a recurring topic on SW CV at the moment, I decided to make a blog to finally settle the debate. In this blog I will address and debunk several misconceptions regarding the validity of Lucas's word and several quotes saying Vader>Anakin. I will also go over some of the counterarguments for some of the quotes saying Anakin > Vader and will present proof of Anakin > Vader. So let's begin.

For the best viewing experience, please pursue in blog format.

Lucas quotes validity:

The first and probably the biggest argument for Vader > Anakin stems from a notion that Lucas's word holds little to no weight in legends and that its contradicted by sourcebooks. These arguments are based off this quote from Hidalgo:

No Caption Provided

Some people have claimed that Hidalgo was saying all SW history is > Lucas's word. However it's clear Hidalgo was purely referencing the CW Series as a better source of SW education. The phrase ,"mining that history," after referencing the CW series makes this abundantly clear.

Now yes, while Lucas's word is no longer gospel, it still holds a lot of weight. Hidalgo confirms this with the phrase "just asking him is much better." If asking Lucas is a viable source for SW education then by default Lucas's word holds weight. The "random statements," part of the quote was definitely referencing things Lucas had little to no involvement in. This is made clear as otherwise why would asking Lucas be a viable source for SW education but Lucas interviews on the films he made wouldn't be?

Not to mention Lucas being the creator of the SW universe logically makes his word hold a lot of weight.

And on this topic, Lucas has made it clear many times that Anakin > Vader:

Now he's half-machine and half-man so he's lost a lot of the power of the Force and a lot of his ability to become more powerful than the Emperor.

Source: George Lucas, Star Wars The Empire Strikes Back DVD commentary

Anakin, as [a] Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful. But he ended up losing his legs and an arm and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there's not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he's maybe 20 percent less than him. So that isn't what the Emperor had in mind.

Source: George Lucas, Vanity Fair

Vader would’ve become infinitely more powerful if he hadn’t ended up his suit, if he hadn’t become half man, half machine which diminishes his powers considerably, which were the powers the Emperor has, so I wanted that relationship of Vader kind of being reduced to, I mean an assistant is too low a word, but he’s a henchmen, which is the impression you had when you saw the first movie by itself, but if you reflect on it a little bit you realize it’s actually not the way it is, the fact that he basically takes orders from Tarkin, who isn’t an equal to him at all, you know he’s way below him, really, but he doesn’t have much choice because he’s hobbled by his infirmities and the New Order, which he’s become a part of.

Source: George Lucas, A New Hope Alternative Commentary with Archival Interviews from Cast and Crew

That’s what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn’t as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn’t what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that.

Source: George Lucas, Rolling Stone Interview

Quote Misconceptions:

Now there are two main collectives of misconceiving quotes from Vader's side to say Vader > KFV. The first one comes from these quotes describing Vader in ROTJ:

His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor.

Source: Return Of The Jedi Novelisation

More powerful in the Force than ever before as well as a master of the lightsaber, Darth Vader prepares for his final battle as the Rebel fleet hammers the fully operational Death Star.

Source: Darth Vader Return Of Anakin Skywalker

Now at first glance, sure these quotes say ROTJ Vader > KFV. However Vader as of ROTJ was noted as being amped by Sidious's presence:

His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within,and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor.He felt engorged with this power; it surged like black fire, demon electrons looking for ground ... but he would wait.

Source: Return of the Jedi Novelisation

Resonated means:

No Caption Provided

In this context, resonated means Vader's power was being increased by Sidious's presence.

It wouldn't be referencing Vader making noise randomly as force nexus's have never noted to make the being's power randomly make noise ever in SW. As well as Vader power increasing instead of making noise being by far the more logical explanation.

Vader being amped in ROTJ is further confirmed in this quote:

During the Rebellion era, dark side devotees become a bit more open, drawn by the power of the Emperor and their acceptance into his court. They are much easier to find anywhere in the Empire, especially in the Imperial Palace, where their power is focused and augmented by that of the Emperor.

Source: The Dark Side Sourcebook

Dark-sider's are amped when in Sidious's presence. While some would argue this wouldn't include Vader, force nexuses have never been noted to only amp lesser force user's in SW. Sidious being a force nexus at this point isn't an exception.

Since Vader was in Sidious's presence during the battle of Endor, where those quotes were saying ROTJ Vader > KFV, Vader would of been amped thus, rendering those quotes invalid.

The second collective of quote misconceptions stem from these quotes:

As Darth Sidious's apprentice, Vader continues to expand his knowledge and the power of the dark side.

Source: Force And Destiny Core Rulebook

Over time Vader has advanced in his ability to manipulate the dark side of the Force, and has used it to sustain his own damaged body as well as to persuade opponents of his will. Under the Emperor's tutelage, Vader learns to kill with mere suggestion.

Source: Star Wars Visual Dictionary

Even his own generals could not escape Vader's wrath, and as time went by, the Sith's powers grew even stronger.

Source: The Story Of Darth Vader.

My Master ( Sidious ) seems pleased; his apprentice grows ever stronger.

Source: Galactic Battlegrounds

All his life he had been trained to turn fear into anger, and anger into power. It was no different, he realized, for Darth Vader. Where else could Lord Vader look for increased power than to the Emperor himself? People were either predators or prey. That was one of the most basic rules of life. Together, Darth Vader and his apprentice would ensure that their joint power only increased.

Source: The Force Unleashed

Some people have tried to argue these quotes saying Vader grew over time to be encompassing KFV. However post Mustafar Vader was noted as much, much weaker than Pre-Mustafar Vader:

It is in this blazing moment that you finally understand the trap of the dark side, the final cruelty of the Sith—Because now your self is all you will ever have. And your rage and scream will reach through the Force to crush the shadow who has destroyed you, but you are so far less now than what you were, you are more than half machine, you are like a painter gone blind, a composer gone deaf, you can remember where the power was but the power you can touch is only a memory, and so with all your world-destroying fury it is only droids around you that implode, and equipment, and the table on which you were strapped shatters, and in the end, you cannot touch the shadow. In the end, you do not even want to.

Source: Revenge of the Sith Novelisation

Darth Vader pledged his loyalty to Darth Sidious as the Clone Wars came to an end. Kneeling before his dark master, Vader assumed the mantle of Dark Lord of the Sith. His first assignment was to wipe out the Jedi Temple. After Vader was defeated by Obi-Wan Kenobi and suffered severe injuries, his power was diminished. Darth Sidious rebuilt his apprentice, but kept his sickly yellow eye open for another who could take his place.

Source: Starwars.com

(For further proof of Vader's injuries drastically weakening him, see below.)

Since KFV >>> Post Mustafar Vader, the quotes saying Vader grew afterwards don't necessarily place Vader as > KFV.

The third batch of misconstrued quotes arise from the misconception that losing connection to the force only reduces potential, not power. Some people have then used this notion to rebut all the quotes stating Vader lost a lot of connection to the force:

This notion was driven in part from conversations with George Lucas. He explained that after Anakin's devastating defeat in Episode III, the Emperor views Darth Vader as broken, his once formidable connection to the Force weakened by the fact that his body is largely cybernetic and inorganic. Thus, it made sense to us that the Emperor would find and train a replacement.

Source: The Art and Making of The Force Unleashed

However this is demonstrably false. It's made clear by Lucas that losing connection to the force impacts both your potential and power level:

One of the things that I thought was really interesting was this idea, this idea that if you didn't use the force for a while, that your ability to use the force would atrophy and eventually you would feel as if your connection with the force has been cut. You know, you see that with Cully Fredricksen's character General Kota in The Force Unleashed and I guess also Luke Skywalker in The Last Jedi, they went with that idea.

Source: Sam Witwer - https://youtu.be/61ngbTL2Lng

(Note: Witwer said Lucas told him that a few lines earlier.)

If losing all your connection to the force stops you from being able to use the force entirely than by default, losing some of your connection would hinder your ability to use the force.

The fourth collective of misconstrued quotes come from these quotes from SW.com:

Darth Vader pledged his loyalty to Darth Sidious as the Clone Wars came to an end. Kneeling before his dark master, Vader assumed the mantle of Dark Lord of the Sith. His first assignment was to wipe out the Jedi Temple. After Vader was defeated by Obi-Wan Kenobi and suffered severe injuries, his power was diminished. Darth Sidious rebuilt his apprentice, but kept his sickly yellow eye open for another who could take his place.

Source: Starwars.com

No Caption Provided

The counterargument for these quotes are that they were only saying Vader was weaker for a time, however this is demonstrably false. This is clear as they reference Vader's injuries as being the reason for Vader being hindered and since the injuries were present for the rest of his life, Vader would stay weakened for the rest of his life.

The fifth and final collective of misconstrued quotes stem from these quotes:

In his duel against Darth Vader on Bespin, Luke Skywalker reveals himself as an extraordinarily gifted artist with the blade who has largely taught himself. After a single brief session with Obi-Wan Kenobi years ago, and only a short time with Yoda, Skywalker is able to hold up against a Dark Lord of the Sith at the height of his powers.

Source: Insider 62

This is a fight you cannot win, Darth. Your power has matured since I taught you, but I too have grown much since our parting. If my blade finds its mark, you will cease to exist. But if you cut me down, I will only become more powerful. Heed my words.

Source: A New Hope Novelisation

From the ashes of defeat, Vader emerged even stronger.

Source: Lightsaber Dueling Pack: Darth Vader

Now at first sight, sure these quotes are saying Vader > KFV. However all of these quotes came out before KFV made his debut in ROTS , thus both by intent and by logic, they wouldn't apply to KFV:

(Note: ROTS came out in 2005, just so there can be no doubts on these quotes preceding KFV.)

The Insider 62 quote came out in:

No Caption Provided

The ANH Novelisation came out in:

No Caption Provided

The Lightsaber Duelling Pack: Darth Vader, came out in:

No Caption Provided

So, as clearly shown all the aforementioned quotes pre-date KFV thus they do not encompass him.

Main argument for KFV > Vader:

The main point for KFV > Vader comes from the vast majority of quotes saying as such. Having taken in all the context regarding many of the quotes saying Vader > KFV, there are only 2 valid ones left:

Many years later, Obi-Wan and Darth Vader duel a second time. The Sith Lord is now more experienced and powerful.

Source: Beware The Sith

This duel was very different from their last. Obi-Wan was older and weaker while Vader was even stronger, fuelled by hatred and thirst for revenge.

Source: Jedi Battles

These 2 quotes, while valid are still dwarfed by the overwhelming majority of quotes saying KFV > Vader:

Now he's half-machine and half-man so he's lost a lot of the power of the Force and a lot of his ability to become more powerful than the Emperor.

Source: George Lucas, Star Wars The Empire Strikes Back DVD commentary

Darth Vader was encased in sinister black armor. The man underneath was mortally wounded in a lightsaber duel, and the dark suit includes extensive machinery to keep Vader alive. The sounds of his mechanical lungs accompany his every step. Such injuries greatly diminished his ability to use the Force, but Vader is still very powerful.

Source: Star Wars Encyclopedia - Darth Vader

Darth Vader pledged his loyalty to Darth Sidious as the Clone Wars came to an end. Kneeling before his dark master, Vader assumed the mantle of Dark Lord of the Sith. His first assignment was to wipe out the Jedi Temple. After Vader was defeated by Obi-Wan Kenobi and suffered severe injuries, his power was diminished. Darth Sidious rebuilt his apprentice, but kept his sickly yellow eye open for another who could take his place.

Source: Starwars.com

Vader would’ve become infinitely more powerful if he hadn’t ended up his suit, if he hadn’t become half man, half machine which diminishes his powers considerably, which were the powers the Emperor has, so I wanted that relationship of Vader kind of being reduced to, I mean an assistant is too low a word, but he’s a henchmen, which is the impression you had when you saw the first movie by itself, but if you reflect on it a little bit you realize it’s actually not the way it is, the fact that he basically takes orders from Tarkin, who isn’t an equal to him at all, you know he’s way below him, really, but he doesn’t have much choice because he’s hobbled by his infirmities and the New Order, which he’s become a part of.”

Source: George Lucas, A New Hope Alternative Commentary with Archival Interviews from Cast and Crew

Anakin, as [a] Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful. But he ended up losing his legs and an arm and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there's not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he's maybe 20 percent less than him. So that isn't what the Emperor had in mind.

Source: George Lucas, Vanity Fair

A generation later, Obi-Wan Kenobi would face Darth Vader once again. While Vader wanted revenge, Obi-Wan was focused on buying time for his friends— including Luke Skywalker. Their duel was careful and measured compared to their previous meeting. Obi-Wan's movements were slowed by age and lack of practice; Darth Vader— recalling the grievous injuries he suffered during their last encounter— fought his former Master with apprehension, while his cybernetic body reduced his actions. Ultimately, Obi-Wan deliberately dropped his defenses, and Darth Vader cut through him, but the Jedi Master mysteriously vanished into the Force.

Source: Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force

As the Rebels escape, Ben and Vader are locked in an epic clash of the force! Though they are now both older and damaged compared to their former selves, it is still a sight to behold! Luke can do nothing but stare in awe.

Source: Adventures: The Daring Escape!

"The Emperor saw in Luke Skywalker a better servant than his father. Luke was young and powerful, while Darth Vader had become a shadow of the man he once was. Palpatine played the two Skywalkers against each other, and in the end, Luke defeated his father."

Source: Wizards - Icons of Episode VI

"An epic duel made impossible by time. The fully grown Jedi Knight Luke Skywalker crosses lightsabers with Anakin Skywalker before his brutal defeat on Mustafar. Both Skywalkers are at the peak of their powers."

Source: Pablo Hidalgo, Head-to-Head

This notion was driven in part from conversations with George Lucas. He explained that after Anakin's devastating defeat in Episode III, the Emperor views Darth Vader as broken, his once formidable connection to the Force weakened by the fact that his body is largely cybernetic and inorganic. Thus, it made sense to us that the Emperor would find and train a replacement.

Source: The Art and Making of The Force Unleashed

That’s what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn’t as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn’t what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that.

Source: George Lucas, Rolling Stone Interview

To recap: There are 16 quotes saying Anakin > Vader compared to the 2 saying Vader > Anakin. It's clear who is stronger. Even if you want to chalk up the Lucas quotes as only one quote since they come from the same source, that still leaves us with 12 quotes saying Anakin > Vader compared to the 2 saying Vader > Anakin. The result still stays the same.

Conclusion:

  • Lucas's word still holds plenty of weight in the EU and Lucas has stated many times that KFV > Vader.
  • 10 quotes saying Vader > KFV have context surrounding them, making them unusable.
  • Losing connection to the force damages both power and potential.
  • Vader's injuries weakened him and were permanent, thus Vader was weaker than KFV for all the time he was in his suit.
  • At best, there are 12 quotes saying KFV > Vader compared to the 2 saying Vader > KFV.
  • KFV is canonically > any version of post-Suit Vader.

Thanks for reading.

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Darthor

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I will be waiting. And this will be a perfect opponent to my planned Vader > Anakin blog

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#2  Edited By redheathen
@darthor said:

I will be waiting. And this will be a perfect opponent to my planned Vader > Anakin blog

LOLZ Same. Or really I began working on a specific aspect last night. It's one that I've mentioned a few times over the past several years. HelloThere is the only person who has really (and unknowingly) provided a decent rebuttal, so I'm digging in.

Even though I don't entirely agree with HelloThere (reason being contradictions) ( I can even argue their side of this argument, but to do so I'd have to break the new LFL rules), I can appreciate HT's knowledge and agile verbal skills.

I look forward to this blog's completion, @hellothere5432. I take it that you've ceased reading about Maul?

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#5 frozen  Moderator

Interesting stuff. Kinda trippy though that Anakin v Vader in Legends has become a debate again. It's like its 2008 again lol.

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hellothere5432

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#8  Edited By hellothere5432  Online
@frozen said:

Interesting stuff. Kinda trippy though that Anakin v Vader in Legends has become a debate again. It's like its 2008 again lol.

Indeed. Side note, would you mind removing Eredin's comment from this blog?

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#9  Edited By hellothere5432  Online

@frozen: Thanks. Btw, do you agree with KFV > Vader?

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#10  Edited By Eredin12

Hellothere being Hellothere, repeating same debunked stuff over and over again:

Loading Video...
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hellothere5432

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@eredin12: Eredin, whether you even know what insanity means is a debate to be had in itself.

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#12  Edited By Eredin12

@hellothere5432: This coming from a guy who consistently argues that ROTS Anakin was not more damaged than kid Anakin despite losing one full limb? Lol.Really when you try to act smart Hellothere you just look like this :

Loading Video...

Just not your thing, no offense ofc

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hellothere5432

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#13  Edited By hellothere5432  Online

@eredin12:

This coming from a guy who said ROTS Anakin was not more damaged than kid Anakin despite losing one full limb? Lol. Really though, when you try to act smart you just look like this tbh:

Eredin, I know you will dismiss this however just so everyone else is aware, damaged means weakening someone/something's function:

No Caption Provided

Anakin losing an arm and replacing it with a mechanical arm was never ever noted to hinder or damage him. In fact there have been many cases of it being noted as helping him. Meanwhile the opposite is the case with Vader.

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#14  Edited By Eredin12

@hellothere5432:

Eredin, I know you will dismiss this however just so everyone's aware, damaged means weakening someone/something's function:

Yes, of damaged natural part, but Cybernetic replacement makes that non-issue, that is why ROTS Anakin despite being naturally more damaged than Kid Anakin via not having one of his limbs is not weaker, and why Vader despite being more damaged than ROTS Anakin via losing more limbs is not weaker, due to actual Cybernetic replacements that made fact of him naturally being a more damaged non-issue

Anakin losing an arm and replacing it with a mechanical arm was never ever noted to hinder or damage him. In fact there have been many cases of it being noted as helping him. Meanwhile the opposite is the case with Vader.

It is not though, you in your delusional head God knows how reached that conclusion but actual quotes do not support that, they never said that it hindered Vader power/ strength or with anything really other than when it comes to raw agility, they simply state he was more damaged, not that said fact that he was more damaged hindered him in any way other than agility wise, due to Cybernetic replacements making his damaged body non-issue, just as with ROTS Anakin/ Kid Anakin. This is something even 7-year-old can understand really, but well not you

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@eredin12:

Yes, of damaged natural part, but Cybernetic replacement makes that non-issue, that is why ROTS Anakin despite being naturally more damaged than Kid Anakin via not having one limb is not weaker, and why Vader despite being more damaged than ROTS Anakin via losing more limbs is not weaker due to actual Cybernetic replacements that made him naturally being a more damaged non-issue

Eredin you're ignoring my arguments again. Damaged means weakening someone/something's function. Anakin was never weakened by losing a limb and having it replaced with a mechanical arm. Case Closed.

It is not though, you in your delusional head God knows how reached that conclusion but actual quotes do not support that, they never said that it hindered Vader power/ strength or anything other than raw agility, they simply state he was more damaged, not that said fact hindered him in any way other than agility wise due to Cybernetic replacement, just with Anakin. This is something even 7-year-old can understand really but well not you

Eredin, damaged means weakened. If Vader is generally damaged then he is generally weakened. This is elementary level comprehension.

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Eredin12

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#16  Edited By Eredin12

@hellothere5432:

Eredin you're ignoring my arguments again.

Lol, classic Hellothere. Ignores you addressing his argument, keeps repeating the same addressed thing over and over again while claiming that you ignore his argument

Loading Video...

Damaged means weakening someone/something's function. Anakin was never weakened by losing a limb and having it replaced with a mechanical arm. Case Closed.Eredin, damaged means weakened. If Vader is generally damaged then he is generally weakened. This is elementary level comprehension.

No Caption Provided

losing limb impaired value, usefulness, and normal function of the said limb, as he lost it, it was gone, could no longer be used. Clear right? That is what the word damaged means in this context. But Cybernetic replacement made fact that he was more damaged than before ( his cut-off arm, which is part of him) non-issue, so it does not mean that he is weaker due to that, while having Cybernetic parts. The same is with Vader, his own body is more damaged sure, he needs life support to even breathe and has lost all limbs, so yes usefulness/ normal function of his own body is impaired but that does not make him weaker due to Cybernetic parts making that problem non-issue, as he does not depend on his own natural more damaged body now. Your reading comprehension truly sucks, that is case closed

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There are far more C-Canon quotes for Anakin > Vader than there are Vader > Anakin, to boot. Nice work.

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The reason is bad no matter what it is

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hellothere5432

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@breakofdawn:

There are far more C-Canon quotes for Anakin > Vader than there are Vader > Anakin, to boot. Nice work.

Indeed. Thanks.

@mcflicky

The reason is bad no matter what it is

?

@frozen

Apologies for the inconvenience but would you mind removing all of Eredin's comments which include the "insanity," video? Thanks

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#20  Edited By hellothere5432  Online

@eredin12:

losing limb impaired value, usefulness, and normal function of the said limb, as he lost it, it was gone, could no longer be used. Clear right? That is what the word damaged means in this context. But Cybernetic replacement made fact that he was more damaged than before ( his cut-off arm, which is part of him) non-issue, so it does not mean that he is weaker due to that, while having Cybernetic parts. The same is with Vader, his own body is more damaged sure, he needs life support to even breathe and has lost all limbs, so yes usefulness/ normal function of his own body is impaired but that does not make him weaker due to Cybernetic parts making that problem non-issue, as he does not depend on his own natural more damaged body now. Your reading comprehension truly sucks, that is case closed

Eredin, it wasn't talking about only a part of Vader being damaged, it was talking about how Vader as a wholewas damaged. If Vader is damaged then he is weaker. I literally gave you dictionary definitions saying as such. If Anakin as a wholeis damaged by losing an arm as you claim then his arm has to have hindered him. Anakin's mechanical arm was never noted as hindering him. Get out of your denial.

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#21  Edited By ShootingNova

Consider also that most of the quotes regarding post-suit Vader's superiority precede the prequels and are clearly not written with pre-suit Vader in mind. A comparison of just how many quotes indicate superiority before and after the PT would probably also be illustrative, since the quotes in favour of pre-suit most definitely encompass post-suit. The shift in general narrative intent seems abundantly clear.

Of course, given the number of quotes in Anakin's favour, that isn't necessary anyway. Good compilation.

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hellothere5432

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@shootingnova:

Consider also that most of the quotes regarding post-suit Vader's superiority precede the prequels and are clearly not written with pre-suit Vader in mind. A comparison of just how many quotes indicate whose superiority before and after the PT would probably also be illustrative, since the quotes in favour of pre-suit most definitely encompass post-suit. The shift in general narrative intent seems abundantly clear.

True. 3 out of the 5 sources saying Anakin > Vader take place before ROTS, rendering them invalid. Will add those in.

Of course, given the number of quotes in Anakin's favour, that isn't necessary anyway. Good compilation.

Thanks.

Btw, will respond later but CV for unknown reasons removed most of my previous post. Will add those points into my reply.

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@frozen said:

Interesting stuff. Kinda trippy though that Anakin v Vader in Legends has become a debate again. It's like its 2008 again lol.

Fortunate Son intensifies

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#27  Edited By Eredin12

@shootingnova: Vader has more quotes stating him as strong in the EU than Anakin by a lot actually. It is 3 to 4 legit quotes for Anakin, rest were debunked, as they either do not even refer to power but agility, Vader himself being more damaged, his moral fall, him losing his potential(a shadow of man he was,

etc) or they only refer to Vader shortly after Mustafar, not permanently. Here is actual debunk on that from debates i and Hellothere had :

And we established above why that cannot be used as counter when we have much more actual EU sources saying Vader>Anakin, next you have:

Darth Vader was encased in sinister black armor. The man underneath was mortally wounded in a lightsaber duel, and the dark suit includes extensive machinery to keep Vader alive. The sounds of his mechanical lungs accompany his every step. Such injuries greatly diminished his ability to use the Force, but Vader is still very powerful.

Source: Star Wars Encyclopedia - Darth Vader

"An epic duel made impossible by time. The fully grown Jedi Knight Luke Skywalker crosses lightsabers with Anakin Skywalker before his brutal defeat on Mustafar. Both Skywalkers are at the peak of their powers."

Source: Pablo Hidalgo, Head-to-Head

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11149/111491026/8217776-3908825156-82167.png

These 3 are legit and you know very well that I never denied them.

Darth Vader pledged his loyalty to Darth Sidious as the Clone Wars came to an end. Kneeling before his dark master, Vader assumed the mantle of Dark Lord of the Sith. His first assignment was to wipe out the Jedi Temple. After Vader was defeated by Obi-Wan Kenobi and suffered severe injuries, his power was diminished. Darth Sidious rebuilt his apprentice, but kept his sickly yellow eye open for another who could take his place.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11149/111491026/8217777-4057213082-82167.png

These 2 are not though, as they do not say permanently, we know for a fact that Vader indeed was weaker for a time after ROTS in bothcontinues, but he overcame that in years that came, in fact, you see this:

No Caption Provided

This is actually also a Disney canon source as well, and it is undeniable that Vader is >Anakin in Disney canon, you agree with that as well, so this only further proves my point really, thank you for that. These scans are talking about temporary loss, not a permanent one.

fought his former Master with apprehension, while his cybernetic body reduced his actions. .

Source: Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force

This one is about Vader being less agile in the fight, hence doing less actions, because when you are less agile you will not be able to do as many actions as a more agile person can do right? Hence why Anakin flipped constantly in the first fight while Vader did not in the second fight with Ben, but that is not about him being weaker force-wise in any way.

As the Rebels escape, Ben and Vader are locked in an epic clash of the force! Though they are now both older and damaged compared to their former selves, it is still a sight to behold! .

Source: Adventures: The Daring Escape!

Being more damaged in no way implies being weaker, ROTS Anakin is more damaged than kid Anakin via not having one arm, while Kid Anakin had both pre-Dooku fight, but that does not mean ROTS Anakin is weaker, instead, as we both know, more damaged ROTS Anakin is far stronger.

"The Emperor saw in Luke Skywalker a better servant than his father. Luke was young and powerful, while Darth Vader had become a shadow of the man he once was. ."

Source: Wizards - Icons of Episode VI

When Obi-Wan Kenobi duels his former apprentice Darth Vader on the Death Star, both combatants know that they are but shadows of their former selves. Neither has fought another lightsaber-wielder for many years. Kenobi is an older man, and Vader a cyborg crippled by the lingering pain of his injuries that make his life-support suit necessary.

Again nothing about force power, reason Vader is a shadow of the man he once was in fact that he lost everything he cared about, needs life support system 24/7 to even live and he lost his potential, which would make him on level of Ones if achieved. That is why Emperor wants Luke who still has most of that potential.

"By returning to Anakin in his prime, when he was the young man that old 'Ben' Kenobi ultimately recalls as a good friend, Lucas is arguably more effective than even Luke Skywalker at reviving and restoring the character."

Source: The Complete Vader, (The Clone Wars)

Hellothere, you don't even need to trust me, but please at least trust the actual dictionary, which says that "prime period of life" means:

the period in yourlife when you are most active or successful:

most important, or of the bestquality:

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/prime

Anakin period of his life was then most personally successful, his life had by far best quality there with wife and children on the way as opposed to constant suffering and self-hatred later on, with the need of life support as well, that is what it is referring to, not force power

In other words, the skill and power that Anakin shows as a young man is greater than what we see in the classic films. As Vader, Anakin is more machine than man, and being a half-droid construct has seriously hampered his lightsaber prowess.

Source: Insider 72

This one does not refer to power in the EU, just power we see in old classic films which ofc was below what we see in prequels due to technological limitations of time OT was made, in fact, do you know when did Insider 72 even come out? In 2003, way before ROTS, so unless you want to argue that Vader, who you think beats Dooku is below AOTC Anakin, who was fodder to Dooku, as AOTC Anakin was a version that existed at the time, it is quite obvious that it does not refer to force power in the EU but what we see on screen

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Star_Wars_Insider_72

While suit Vader has 7 legit quotes for being stronger. Sure some of them came before prequels but that does not make them any less valid, as in-universe Anakin was a thing even then, and how thigns are in-universe is what should matter when we debate in-universe matters, especially since Vader has more recent EU quotes stating him as stronger as well, from 2012 and 2013. all quotes for Anakin are years older, so even in that aspect, those quotes are retconned by both number and more recent quotes Vader has

Many years later, Obi-Wan and Darth Vader duel a second time. The Sith Lord is now more experienced and powerful.

-- Beware The Sith (2012)

"This duel was very different from their last. Obi-Wan was older and weaker while Vader was even stronger, fueled by hatred and thirst for revenge."

Credit to Dawn_of_Ages

-- Jedi Battles( 2013)

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#28  Edited By Eredin12

@hellothere5432: Tbh fact that you would respond( with the same usual repeating same thing over and over again as you always do ) and then block me so that i canont even respond to it, is pretty pathetic really, even for you.

That is why It is hard to argue with someone with such the reading comprehension of 7 year old and ego. Anyway, the arm is part of you, if your arm is cut, if it is gone, then you are more damaged, you are an invalid then, and someone who is invalid is more damaged than someone who is not ofc. The quote you used does not even say that Vader" as a whole" is more damaged, it does not use that word at all in fact, instead, it says that he is more damaged as a person, just like Invalid as a person is more damaged than a person with no such invalidity. Vader as a whole is not more damaged, if he was then his brain would also be more damaged, because the brain is also part of your body and would be included had the quote said " as a whole" but it did not. Instead of a lot of other parts of him were more damaged, his limbs that were gone, his skin, his lungs, hence why he needs life support, so yes his own body is more damaged, its normal function is impaired, it is less useful than before, just like with Anakin and his arm, but Cybernetic parts make that problem non-issue, as he now does not rely on his own damaged body, which is indeed weaker but on cybernetic parts, which fix that problem and mean that he himself is not weaker due to them, just like with Anakin

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@eredin12:

Tbh fact that you would respond( with the same usual repeating same thing over and over again ) and then block me not to respond is pretty pathetic really, even for you

That is why It is hard to argue with someone with the reading comprehension of 7 year old you know.

I'm happy you feel that way .

Anyway, the arm is part of you, if your arm is cut, gone, then you are more damaged, you are an invalid then, and someone who is invalid is more damaged than someone who is not ofc.

Yeah, except Anakin was never noted as being weakened by having his arm replaced with a mechanical arm which he would be if he was damaged as you claim.

The quote you used does not even say that Vader" as a whole" is more damaged, it does not use that word at all in fact, instead, it says that he is more damaged as a person, just like Invalid as a person is more damaged than a person with no such invalidity. Vader as a whole is not more damaged, if he was then his brain would also be more damaged, because the brain is also part of your body and would be included had the quote said " as a whole" but it did not. Instead of a lot of other parts of him were more damaged, his limbs that were gone, his skin, his lungs, hence why he needs life support, so yes his own body is more damaged, its normal function is impaired, it is less useful than before, just like with Anakin and his arm, but Cybernetic parts make that problem non-issue, as he now does not rely on his own damaged body, which is indeed weaker but on cybernetic parts, which fix that problem and mean that he himself is not weaker due to them, just like with Anakin

Vader was damaged in regard to his combative abilities:

As the Rebels escape, Ben and Vader are locked in an epic clash of the force! Though they are now both older and damaged compared to their former selves, it is still a sight to behold! Luke can do nothing but stare in awe.

Source: Adventures: The Daring Escape!

It was referencing Vader being weaker in power per describing the fight between them.

Damaged means:

- Inflict harm onto something as to impair it's value, usefulness or function.

For example if a car crashes, it is damaged thus is weaker.

This means Vader is weaker compared to his former self.

- Have a detrimental effect on.

Meaning Vader's injuries had a detrimental (weakening) effect on his combative abilities, meaning KFV > Vader.

Also, 3 out of the 5 sources which were valid came out before 2005 so they wouldn't encompass KFV. So you now have 2 valid sources saying Vader > KFV while I have 12 at best.

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#32  Edited By Eredin12

@hellothere5432: I am just being a Realist though and going by what your comments show

Yeah, except Anakin was never noted as being weakened by having his arm replaced with a mechanical arm which he would be if he was damaged as you claim.

Neither was Vader, he was never once noted as being weakened by having his limbs replaced by Cybernetic ones,it was only said that his own body is more damaged/ weakened, his own natural body, but Cybernetic parts fixed that problem, as they did with Anakin

Vader was damaged in regard to his combative abilities:

It was referencing Vader being weaker in power per describing the fight between them.

quote never says that, just that they themselves are more damaged as people, not their combat abilities, learn to read my man

Damaged means:

- Inflict harm onto something as to impair it's value, usefulness or function.

For example if a car crashes, it is damaged thus is weaker.

This means Vader is weaker compared to his former self.

- Have a detrimental effect on.

Meaning Vader's injuries had a detrimental (weakening) effect on his combative abilities, meaning KFV > Vader.

Hellothere...

Loading Video...
No Caption Provided

losing limbs and being burned to the point he needs life support impaired the value, usefulness, and normal function of his own body, hence why he is more damaged. But Cybernetic replacement made said fact that he was more damaged than before non-issue, sure usefulness/ normal function of his own body is impaired but that does not make him weaker as he now, after getting Cybernetic parts, does not rely on his own damaged body, which is indeed weaker but on cybernetic parts, which fix that problem and mean that he himself is not weaker due to them, just like with Anakin

Also, 3 out of the 5 sources which were valid came out before 2005 so they wouldn't encompass KFV. So you now have 2 valid sources saying Vader > KFV while I have 12 at best.

They would, as they refer to ANH/ESB/ROTJ Vader, all which is decades after KFV time, in-universe KFV was a thing then, and as we are debating in-universe stuff here, in-universe facts matter, you have 3, we have 7 and we have quotes far more recent than yours, so they retcon them from that time perspective as well, as younger sources retcon older ones by default

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@eredin12:

quote never says that, just that they themselves are more damaged as people, not their combat abilities, learn to read my man

Literally did:

As the Rebels escape, Ben and Vader are locked in an epic clash of the force! Though they are now both older and damaged compared to their former selves, it is still a sight to behold! Luke can do nothing but stare in awe.

Source: Adventures: The Daring Escape!

It's saying Vader and Obi Wan were more damaged compared to their former selves while describing the fight, before and after the damaged part of the quote. Thus it was referencing combative prowess.

losing limbs and being burned to the point he needs life support impaired the value, usefulness, and normal function of his own body, hence why he is more damaged. But Cybernetic replacement made said fact that he was more damaged than before nonissue, sure usefulness/ normal function of his own body is impaired but that does not make him weaker as he now, after getting Cybernetic parts, does not rely on his own damaged body, which is indeed weaker but on cybernetic parts, which fix that problem and mean that he himself is not weaker due to them, just like with Anakin

It's not referencing Vader's body, it's referencing Vader's combative prowess. If Vader's cybernetic parts made him a superior combatant then by definition he is not damaged.

They would, as they refer to ANH/ESB/ROTJ Vader, all which is decades after KFV time, in-universe KFV was a thing then, andas we are debating in-universe stuff here, in-universe facts matter,

The authors of the quotes didn't know about KFV's power level since KFV wasn't a thing yet. Thus it isn't encompassing KFV.

you have 3, we have 7 and we have quotes far more recent than yours, so they retcon them from that time perspective as well, as younger sources retcon older ones by default

I have 16 and you have 2. Yours being 2-3 years more recent do not in any way make them far more valid.

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#34  Edited By Eredin12

@hellothere5432:

It's saying Vader and Obi Wan were more damaged compared to their former selves while describing the fight, before and after the damaged part of the quote. Thus it was referencing combative prowess.It's not referencing Vader's body, it's referencing Vader's combative prowess

Only if it said that their combative prowess are more damaged would it be doing that, and it did not even imply that, let us see what it states:

1. As the Rebels escape, Ben and Vader are locked in an epic clash of the force! 2. Though they are now both older and damaged compared to their former selves, it is still a sight to behold! 3. Luke can do nothing but stare in awe.

1. At first, it states clash is epic

2. Then in the next sentence, it states that even though they, as people are more damaged and older, which as we established does not mean weaker than when they were younger, it is still a great fight to watch, meaning if anything that those factors above did not hinder them combat wise, but never implying that it did in any way, another thing you made up.

3. It states Luke can only stare

. If Vader's cybernetic parts made him a superior combatant then by definition he is not damaged.

Ofc he is, he lost all his limbs, his skin and needs life support to live, to claim that someone like that is not more damaged than when he was good looking young man with only missing one arm would be a pure delusion, he himself, his own body is much more damaged, but Cybernetic parts fix that as far as combat is concerned, they mean that he is not weaker as does not rely on his own damaged body, which is indeed weaker but on cybernetic parts for combat, but his own body is still much more damaged than before, which is what quote says

The authors of the quotes didn't know about KFV's power level since KFV wasn't a thing yet. Thus it isn't encompassing KFV.

I have 16 and you have 2. Yours being 2-3 years more recent do not in any way make them far more valid.

What author thought or did not think is not canon/true and has no relevance here:

No Caption Provided

Only published material matters, that is why, in-universe, and we are debating in-universe standing here, it encompassing KFV, as that was far before ANH

You have 3, rest are all debunked by posts ,to which you did not even respond:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/darth-maul-and-savage-oppress-vs-mother-talzin-and-2239125/?page=2#js-message-83

While I showed 7 legit ones.In that very same thread :

Many years later, Obi-Wan and Darth Vader duel a second time. The Sith Lord is now more experienced and powerful.

-- Beware The Sith

This duel was very different from their last. Obi-Wan was older and weaker while Vader was even stronger, fueled by hatred and thirst for revenge.

Credit to Dawn_of_Ages

-- Jedi Battles

“This is a fight you cannot win, Darth. Your power has matured since I taught you, but I too have grown much since our parting. If my blade finds its mark, you will cease to exist. But if you cut me down, I will only become more powerful. Heed my words.”

-- A New Hope

His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor.

-- Return Of The Jedi

You are Darth Vader, Lord of the Sith, master of the Dark Side of the Force. Once a power for good in the galaxy, you are now feared as the ultimate evil. Obi-Wan Kenobi, a Jedi Knight, opened you to the power of the Force. You became his apprentice and learned the ways of the Jedi. But Kenobi's methods were slow and difficult, not quick and easy as you hoped they would be.

So you gave yourself over to the Dark Side, allowing it to consume you so that you could be reborn in a more powerful image. Now you stand with the Emperor, bent on subjugating the entire galaxy to his New Order.

--

Obi-Wan, enraged by betryal, battled Vader in an epic clash of lightsbers. Kenobi emerged victorious, sure that his one-time companion and pupil was destroyed. But the Force was strong in Vader, stronger than Kenobi knew, and somehow, Vader survived the terrible wounds he received.

Vader survived, but not unscarred-his shattered body encased in life-supporting armor and a breath mask. In spite of these handicaps, Vader thrived. in fact, he found a way to turn these to his advantage. He had his breath mask crafted into a sinister black helmet and, donning a black cloak over his black armor, he became a figure out of nightmare. From the ashes of defeat, Vader emerged even stronger.

Credit to Azronger

-- Lightsaber Dueling Pack: Darth Vader

More powerful in the Force than ever before as well as a master of the lightsaber, Darth Vader prepares for his final battle as the Rebel fleet hammers the fully operational Death Star.

Credit to Azronger

-- Darth Vader Return Of Anakin Skywalker

More recent sources retcon any amount of older ones, that is what retcon even means in the first place

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@hellothere5432: Very good stuff, nice to have a compilation of all the sources in one place. I would also add that most of the quotes affirming post-suits superiority were made before the Prequels, so they logically and by intent would only refer to OT Vaders peak.

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#36  Edited By hellothere5432  Online

@eredin12:

Only if it said that their combative prowess are more damaged would it be doing that, and it did not even imply that, let us see what it states:

1. At first, it states clash is epic

2. Then in the next sentence, it states that even though they, as people are more damaged and older, which as we established does not mean weaker than when they were younger, it is still a great fight to watch, meaning if anything that those factors above did not hinder them combat wise, but never implying that it did in any way, another thing you made up.

3. It states Luke can only stare

No. The "damaged part was describing the fighter's themselves. It started off with stating Vader and Obi Wan were fighting, then saying despite them being weaker compared to their former selves, then saying that despite this, the fight was a spectacle. It's clear it was referencing them as combatants per referencing the fight before saying that they were damaged.

As the Rebels escape, Ben and Vader are locked in an epic clash of the force! 2. Though they are now both older and damaged compared to their former selves, it is still a sight to behold! 3. Luke can do nothing but stare in awe.

Also you simply cannot argue that damaged doesn't mean weakened since all definitions of damaged mean weakened.

Ofc he is, he lost all his limbs, his skin and needs life support to live, to claim that someone like that is not more damaged than when he was good looking young man with only missing one arm would be a pure delusion, he himself, his own body is much more damaged, but Cybernetic parts fix that as far as combat is concerned, they mean that he is not weaker as does not rely on his own damaged body, which is indeed weaker but on cybernetic parts for combat, but his own body is still much more damaged than before, which is what quote says

It was talking about Vader generally. Generally Vader is damaged compared to KFV, thus he is weaker.

What author thought or did not think is not canon/true and has no relevance here:

Only published material matters, that is why, in-universe, and we are debating in-universe standing here, it encompassing KFV, as that was far before ANH

Firstly Martin has no authority in legends as he states:

No Caption Provided

If KFV wasn't an actualised character yet then the quotes cannot apply to him. This doesn't need explaining.

You have 3, rest are all debunked by posts ,to which you did not even respond:

Me electing to stop trying to convince you to get over your denial does not in any way make your points valid.Personally, I think your degree of intellectual dishonesty warrants no further response, but if you decide to stop ignoring, cherry-picking or inventing facts, I'll consider continuing this discussion.

While I showed 7 legit ones.In that very same thread :

2 were in regard to Sidious amping Vader in ROTJ, and three pre-dated KFV so they don't apply to him. You have 2 quotes vs 16, 12 at best if you insist on having Lucas's quotes only count as one.

You do not have a single valid argument for Vader > Anakin, your arguments rely on cherry picking, inventing facts and ignoring both counter's and what quotes actually mean. Combine that with your arrogance and tendency to insult everyone who disagrees with you and you have a plethora of reasons for why so many people no longer wish to debate you. Get over your denial and drop your bias.

Oh, and while I'm at it:

remember these:

Posting links to forums I debated on in no way proves me being "destroyed."

I showed it to you several times as cases in which you got debunked by both Aryan and Nova and instead chose denial as always

Despite me asking you several times, you neglected to show any examples of me being destroyed, favouring baseless statements instead.

Oh and Eredin, it doesn't just seem to be me either saying this. The number of people I've seen saying the exact same thing as me about you is unbelievable. Perhaps you should take it as a sign to maybe stop with the denial and nonsensical arguments.

By countless you mean few people from Sl and few people that I simply don't get along with as a result of being on the vine for 2 years?You do know when you are that long on the vine and are active as I am, you have both people who like and dislike you?

Epicstoic is neither from SI, nor has been on the site as long as you, yet he still called me superior. Same with Darthor, someone who disagrees with virtually everything I say yet still holds me superior to you. Same applies Thunderbolt57, someone who recently joined the site has voiced opposing views to me several times yet still holds me superior. I don't know whether Noobsnowman has debated you before however even if he is bias against you, it means nothing given the several other people already voicing their belief's of Me > you.

As for Redguardian, yes he is from SI, however at the time, I wasn't and even now we disagree on plenty in SW related, yet he also holds me as comfortably superior to you. And at that time, my debating skills were comfortably inferior to what they are now. Whereas yours seem to have stayed on a similar level as they were over a month ago.

ofc there is, fact that people who you posted and I either have low opinions on each other based on other threads ( Noob/Eric due to TW3/DBS etc) or that they wank Maul like you, hence why freaking Grey is on top lol, it is sad that you would opinion of handful people that agree with you on something as some kind of proof, instead of actual arguments when debating, that just screams insecurity

Epicstoic and I disagree plenty.

Also lmao @ Grey being a Maul wanker. Have you seen the countless occasions of him arguing heavily against Maul?

SI being a place of Maul wank is even more laughable given most user's there, including Redgaurdian hold Maul even lower than you do.

Oh and Eredin, let me assure you that I will have no problem using arguments to prove my considerable superior to you as a debater. I am far from "insecure," in that regard. The fact that I am stated to be superior in every instance of us two being compared is merely the icing on the cake.

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@uhu123:

Very good stuff, nice to have a compilation of all the sources in one place.

Much appreciated.

I would also add that most of the quotes affirming post-suits superiority were made before the Prequels, so they logically and by intent would only refer to OT Vaders peak.

Indeed. I'll add those in shortly. It's safe to say, KFV > Suited Vader is now ironclad.

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@wollfmyth209:

Just read through it. Very interesting thread, great job.

Thanks. Much appreciated.

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#41  Edited By Darthor

I disagree, but very excellent job as always.

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Nice post, it's good to have all the sources in one place for once lol.

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@darthor:

I disagree, but very excellent job as always.

Thanks. What parts in particular did you disagree with?

@donloota

Nice post, it's good to have all the sources in one place for once lol.

Indeed. Thanks

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Nice post. Agree with most of it. Though you could've included KFV's possible superiority to ROTS Sidious.

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#46  Edited By Wolfrazer

I'm pretty sure losing limbs and having cybernetics doesn't make one weaker with The Force, that kinda has been thrown out the window with other characters having such and yet they even being stronger after. A couple that come to mind are Valin Draco and that one Sith in TOR who kept dying over and over again(can't remember the name was in the JK storyline), yet coming back again with more and more cybernetics, but was clearly stronger than the last time.

I believe in a novel(can't recall which one) it's also noted that cybernetics don't do anything to really diminish one's connection.

If it was a point to be made that they do, then somewhere along the way, writers just completely ignored it.