Why I think Spider-Man rouge gallery is overrated.

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Dmnb2wavy

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Now tbh I always thought Spider-Man rouge gallery was overrated. People always talked about how he has the best in comics second to batman but really he just haa some of the most popular villains in comics. I mean do people actually consider villains like sandman, shocker, electro, rhino, vulture, scorpion, and hob goblin to be really good villains? I don’t think so. I mean really a lot of the rouges of Spider-Man are just not that good. this is not to say spider man does not have good villains like kraven, green goblin, morlun, doc ock, the lizard and carnage. I just feel like a lot of his villains are just not that interesting or good for that matter. of course I’m not saying these bad villains don’t have their moments but generally they just don’t do that much. Overall I think spider man rouge gallery is overrated.

now i could be wrong and if I’m actually wrong prove me wrong

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Noobmaster2001

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I disagree,I think those villains you have listed as being not good are all interesting both personality wise and costume/power wise and I think that he has the best rogues gallery in comics maybe second to Batman (but it’s close in my opinion)

Sandman has been sympathetic for years as he’s tried to do the right thing and reform as has Rhino.

Rhino has a Heart of Gold and has tried to do the right thing multiple times as he only does villainous things to get rid of the suit he’s stuck in.

Scorpion was driven insane from the experiment that gave him his powers and wants revenge on j Jonah Jameson the man who ruined his life.

Vulture was cheated out by a fellow business man and wanted revenge (although I will admit Spider-Man Homecoming did a better origin)

Electro got the whole unlucky loser thing going with him he’s very powerful(was once able to shut down peoples brains),but held back by his mental blocks.

Hobgoblin was Spider-Mans longest running mystery villain and was very interesting as he framed and brainwashed others to become other Hobgoblins and began building his criminal empire, which even resulted in Ned Leeds and Flash Thompson becoming Hobgoblin.

Shocker might be written as a jobber most of the time in comics(most super villains are) but in Superior Foes of SpiderMan he was given a lot more of a personality where similar to Electro he’s got the whole unlucky loser thing going for him.also his costume is so cool lol.

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Ready_4_Madness

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Guardiandevil83

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#4  Edited By Guardiandevil83

@dmnb2wavy: Rhino is muscle. He's never been portrayed as a villian's villain.

Someone like Kraven, Hammerhead, Tombstone, Allister Smythe are the villians/bosses.

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Dmnb2wavy

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I disagree,I think those villains you have listed as being not good are all interesting both personality wise and costume/power wise and I think that he has the best rogues gallery in comics maybe second to Batman (but it’s close in my opinion)

okay I disagree

Sandman has been sympathetic for years as he’s tried to do the right thing and reform as has Rhino.

how does that make him a good villain? Overall sandman is treated as a joke in a lot of comics. Being sympathetic does not make you a good villain.

Rhino has a Heart of Gold and has tried to do the right thing multiple times as he only does villainous things to get rid of the suit he’s stuck in.

Same with rhino how does this make him a good villain? This is not even interesting and he is usually always treated as a joke.

Scorpion was driven insane from the experiment that gave him his powers and wants revenge on j Jonah Jameson the man who ruined his life.

I think your confusing concept with what actually happens in comics. Overall scorpion is not that interesting and is treated as a joke all the time. As a villain he is not interesting.

Vulture was cheated out by a fellow business man and wanted revenge (although I will admit Spider-Man Homecoming did a better origin)

so how does this make him a good villain?

Electro got the whole unlucky loser thing going with him he’s very powerful(was once able to shut down peoples brains),but held back by his mental blocks.

Electro is treated as a joke and is easily beaten from time to time.

Hobgoblin was Spider-Mans longest running mystery villain and was very interesting as he framed and brainwashed others to become other Hobgoblins and began building his criminal empire, which even resulted in Ned Leeds and Flash Thompson becoming Hobgoblin.

this May be the only good one that I got wrong however everyone else are bad villains that are not interesting.

Shocker might be written as a jobber most of the time in comics(most super villains are) but in Superior Foes of SpiderMan he was given a lot more of a personality where similar to Electro he’s got the whole unlucky loser thing going for him.also his costume is so cool lol.

He has a cool costume but as you said he is fodder and not a good villain.

none of the villains you listed besides hob are Not even manderin lvl villains. Overall alot of Spider-Man villains are not that interesting or have a cool concept that they barely do anything with.

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Dmnb2wavy

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#6  Edited By Dmnb2wavy

@guardiandevil83: I’m pretty sure in spider man most recent fight with tombstone he one shot him. Either way rhino is a very popular villain so I use him to say why I think a lot of his villains are overrated

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Stormdriven

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Agreed, how many people even use rouge nowadays? Such an overrated piece of makeup

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ThorofAsgard

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#8  Edited By ThorofAsgard

The thing is, how can you say it’s overrated when the only other hero with as many notable villains is Batman. If he’s known to be second to Batman, then he’s right where he’s supposed to be. I mean, who else comes close?

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Noobmaster2001

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#9  Edited By Noobmaster2001

@dmnb2wavy: What does make a good villain then?What villain would you say is a good villain? Im saying that they have good motivations and them being sympathetic means that we can understand your motives which in turn makes them interesting ,yes they are treated as jokes at times most supervillains who face spider-man usually are but they also have good showings too, Rhino has defeated Joe Fixit he's Fought Savage Hulk,Nearly killed Spider-Man twice (Spider-man has admited he's scared of Rhino) Sandman has given Spider-man a hard time he's also fought Savage Hulk and the Thing (He has a good back story in the comics ,he also had a great origin in Spider-Man 3) Vulture is very interesting in Spider-Man Homecoming and is a good villain,Electro while not the most interesting of all Spider-Man villains is still very powerful as he once began shutting down Spider-man's brain and has soloed the Frightful Four by himself.Shocker is treated as a joke a lot but he was given more depth in Superior foes of Spider-man and he's given Spider-Man a hard time .Dr doom has bad showings and so does Thanos,Galactus,Venom does that make them bad villains? I know its your opinion and your entitled to it but i think you haven't read a lot of comics with these characters.

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Dmnb2wavy

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The thing is, how can you say it’s overrated when the only other hero with as many notable villains is Batman. If he’s known to be second to Batman, then he’s right where he’s supposed to be. I mean, who else comes close?

but that’s the problem Spider-Man villains are just popular a lot of them are not even that good. People claim he has some of the best in comics and name villains like electro, rhino, and shocker when they are not even that good they are just popular that’s my problem.

iN my honest opinion I think Superman has a better rouge gallery than Spider-Man and the x men but you are right alot of characters only have one famous villain like captain America Or two like iron man.

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deactivated-5eadbe7fcf64f

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The thing is, how can you say it’s overrated when the only other hero with as many notable villains is Batman. If he’s known to be second to Batman, then he’s right where he’s supposed to be. I mean, who else comes close?

Pretty much this they are the only two with ten plus villains that are all decent at worst

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Dmnb2wavy

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#12  Edited By Dmnb2wavy
@noobmaster2001 said:

@dmnb2wavy: “What does make a good villain then?What villain would you say is a good villain?”

a good villain is someone who is interesting, can challenge the hero on their views and make them question what they are doing. These villains for Spider-Man would be green goblin, morlun and kraven although there is probably more I’m not naming. Other than that being a physical threat who is not treated as a joke all the time. There are probably more but these are from the top of my head

“Im saying that they have good motivations and them being sympathetic means that we can understand your motives which in turn makes them interesting ,”

Yes I already said some have a interesting concept but in practice nothing comes out of it. A concept should not define a character it’s their history that defines them and overall a lot of Spider-Man villain history is bad. They usually just go back to being villains anyway.

“yes they are treated as jokes at times most supervillains who face spider-man usually are but they also have good showings too, Rhino has defeated Joe Fixit he's Fought Savage Hulk,Nearly killed Spider-Man twice (Spider-man has admited he's scared of Rhino)”

Okay him defeating joe is definitely pis considering he has lost to iron man and iron heart. Same with savage hulk.

as for Spider-Man that’s really good actually do you have the comic names or scans of this happening? If rhino was more consistent I would definitely consider him a fun villain for Spider-Man to fight but he is treated as fodder so that’s why I have him as a bad villain.

“Sandman has given Spider-man a hard time he's also fought Savage Hulk and the Thing (He has a good back story in the comics ,he also had a great origin in Spider-Man 3)”

that was only the first time they fought if i remember correctly.

Well again him fighting savage hulk and thing are more than likely pis and the spider man 3 is a movie.

“Vulture is very interesting in Spider-Man Homecoming and is a good villain,”

well That’s homecoming I’m talking about the comics so I don’t think he is a good villain

“Electro while not the most interesting of all Spider-Man villains is still very powerful as he once began shutting down Spider-man's brain and has soloed the Frightful Four by himself”

Yes but everyone villain gets their moments like I said he still consistently gets his ass handed to him. I mean two face once kicked killer croc ass but I don’t think that makes him a better villain. And killer croc once beat bane but I don’t think that makes him a good villain.

“.Shocker is treated as a joke a lot but he was given more depth in Superior foes of Spider-man and he's given Spider-Man a hard time”

Like what exactly? And I’m pretty sure that was only first appearance tho I could be wrong

“.Dr doom has bad showings and so does Thanos,Galactus,Venom does that make them bad villains?”

No the thing is they are CONSISTENT in their better showings. Dr doom is Usually never treated as a joke and is always given respect even by characters like hulk, iron man or his own heroes like thing. venom is treated always as a threat to spider man and has his own series. Thanos is thanos and galctus is just inconsistent sometimes.

I know its your opinion and your entitled to it but i think you haven't read a lot of comics with these characters.

your definitely right I haven’t read every comic but I got the general knowledge even then maybe my opinion is wrong. Who knows I mean I still do t see how this makes any of them good villains based on what you said. Consistency matters a lot to me.

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Noobmaster2001

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@dmnb2wavy: Rhino defeating Joe Fixit isn't PIS since there close to the same strength,a super villain losing to a super hero does not make them bad,The superhero always wins in the end.Sure Shocker or Rhino aren't exactly the greatest super villains ever but that does not make them bad or overrated there still good characters.

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Dmnb2wavy

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#14  Edited By Dmnb2wavy

@noobmaster2001: no it’s definitely pis. rhino can not even knock out Spider-Man half the time yet he can beat joe who once fought the west coast avengers which included wonder man? plus he fought thing and human torch at the same time. If rhino was actually this powerful consistently he would stomp Spider-Man every time and there would not even be a fight. Yeah it’s pis characters like iron man and iron heart has beat rhino. Even Luke cage has beat rhino and Spider-Man has beat rhino before

your right and wrong if your treated as a joke your a bad villain simple as that. Heroes will always win yes I agree but villains need to be respected as threats not jokes like shocker. There bad characters there really is nothing that interesting about them and consistency they are fodder.

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Lone_Wolf_and_Cub

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You know what I find overrated? People’s use of the word.

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Tony501

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He has enough good ones to make a case for being in the top of the food chain even tho a lot of the others are overrated.

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Ready_4_Madness

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Ready_4_Madness

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@tony501: Batman, X-Men, Flash & Superman villains>

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PayneInTheAss

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rouge

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Dmnb2wavy

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@ready_4_madness: flash? That’s interesting. I agree with Batman, Superman and x men but I never thought flash had any real good rouges besides zoom or gorilla grodd. Why do you think he has better rouges than Spider-Man

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Dmnb2wavy

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You know what I find overrated? People’s use of the word.

Lol okay yeah I agree

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Super_ninja

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i think Batman has the best rogue gallery.

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Dmnb2wavy

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Tony501

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Ready_4_Madness

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@tony501: I disagree but ok, can’t really debate opinion.

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Supermanfan1938

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He's like the only marvel hero with a memorable rogue's gallery that's why

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Even if Spider-Man did have the second best rogues gallery, it doesnt matter. The question says they are over-rated. I think it plays more to the fact that people compare Spider-Man's gallery to Batman's. While in reality it isn't even close. Unfortunately, no rogues gallery comes close to Batman.

But here's the thing: Batman Survives off of his villains. It's 50% of the reason he is popular.
Spider-Man doesn't need such interesting villains, because his stories (at their core) are not about him defeating the villain, it's about how his life as Spider-Man affects his personal life. That's why him being in high school or school, or always having a girlfriend, is so important. That's why lots of his story focus on simple things like work.

That's just my opinion on the matter. But also, X-Men easily have a rogues gallery to compete with Spider-Mans, while Superman and Flash do not.

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Spider-Man has a mixed bag of villains but most characters does. Batman has the best villains by far (even his lesser known villains are really interesting) I would still say Spider-Man is 2nd though.

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Michaelbn

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TheInsufferable

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He does have good ones, but there are plenty of dumb ones.

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Riddlersriddle

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I'm kind of conflicted about Spidey's rogues gallery, I mean there are some gems in there but I feel like a lot of them are just style over substance and many are vastly overrated imo (Most notable for me being Doctor Octopus, I've just never seen the character's appeal in the majority of the comics he appears in). Although I can't really think of another contender for the second best rogues gallery other than Spidey as no others (Apart from Batman's) have such a large and recognisable gauntlet of foes (However I do think The Flash has better villains but they're just not well known enough/utilised a lot to warrant giving them the second place).

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Riddlersriddle

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Even if Spider-Man did have the second best rogues gallery, it doesnt matter. The question says they are over-rated. I think it plays more to the fact that people compare Spider-Man's gallery to Batman's. While in reality it isn't even close. Unfortunately, no rogues gallery comes close to Batman.

But here's the thing: Batman Survives off of his villains. It's 50% of the reason he is popular.

Spider-Man doesn't need such interesting villains, because his stories (at their core) are not about him defeating the villain, it's about how his life as Spider-Man affects his personal life. That's why him being in high school or school, or always having a girlfriend, is so important. That's why lots of his story focus on simple things like work.

That's just my opinion on the matter. But also, X-Men easily have a rogues gallery to compete with Spider-Mans, while Superman and Flash do not.

I've never actually thought about it that way but this pretty much encompasses the whole argument about Batman's villains, I've never really understood how people can say Spidey has a better rogues gallery.

Although I do kinda disagree about The Flash as he has a rogues gallery that could compete against Spidey's, but I just don't think they're used enough and obviously lack in the fame department (With the public anyway).

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Marvelitez

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#33  Edited By Marvelitez

Big facts. They're all (majority) simple with a stand out design and trope so of course they are overrated like Spider-Man himself.

I know I did not just see somebody trying to make a case for Vulture and Rhino. Lol they failed terribly but ok.

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Ready_4_Madness

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@dmnb2wavy: sorry but I literally just saw your response now. The thing I like about Flash villains is how unique the rivalries with The Flash are, and the wide variety of personalities you get. A lot of people just see their character designs and just regard them as ridiculous (some of them are) but when you actually read his titles, these villains are actually great because of the unique ways they counter Flash.

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Dmnb2wavy

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Marvelitez

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#36  Edited By Marvelitez

@marvelitez: why do you think spider man is overrated?

I don't even know how to answer you... The fact that you are asking like it's a shock further reassures me that he is. Everyone acts like he's the greatest of all time when he is not and I've yet to see actual reasoning for it. It's a bandwagon effect obviously just like Batman. No thanks nothing special about him people are just gonna say "he's so cool"

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Dmnb2wavy

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@marvelitez: no I’m just interested as to why you think that.

I’m relatively new to vine so I have yet to see people claim “he is the greatest of all time”

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Marvelitez

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@marvelitez: no I’m just interested as to why you think that.

I’m relatively new to vine so I have yet to see people claim “he is the greatest of all time”

That's surprising. You never seen or heard it any where else?

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Dmnb2wavy

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@marvelitez: I have but not to the extent to make it seem like he is overrated. I also see people claim iron man is the most powerful avenger

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Marvelitez

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@marvelitez: I have but not to the extent to make it seem like he is overrated. I also see people claim iron man is the most powerful avenger

Those people are trolls or just super fanboys. The most powerful avenger is Thor, no matter what version, MCU, 616, Ultimate, Super Hero Squad... Only a jobbing Thor and PIS can make someone stronger than his standard self. Especially 616

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Lone_Wolf_and_Cub

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@marvelitez: Lmfao yeah he’s overrated because you say so? ??

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Marvelitez

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NerdAttack

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@marvelitez: Then who is the best superhero? You say Spider-man and Batman are over-rated for often being considered the best superheroes of all time. If not those icons, who would you say the best is? I am genuinely curious.

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@nerdattack said:

Even if Spider-Man did have the second best rogues gallery, it doesnt matter. The question says they are over-rated. I think it plays more to the fact that people compare Spider-Man's gallery to Batman's. While in reality it isn't even close. Unfortunately, no rogues gallery comes close to Batman.

But here's the thing: Batman Survives off of his villains. It's 50% of the reason he is popular.

Spider-Man doesn't need such interesting villains, because his stories (at their core) are not about him defeating the villain, it's about how his life as Spider-Man affects his personal life. That's why him being in high school or school, or always having a girlfriend, is so important. That's why lots of his story focus on simple things like work.

That's just my opinion on the matter. But also, X-Men easily have a rogues gallery to compete with Spider-Mans, while Superman and Flash do not.

I've never actually thought about it that way but this pretty much encompasses the whole argument about Batman's villains, I've never really understood how people can say Spidey has a better rogues gallery.

Although I do kinda disagree about The Flash as he has a rogues gallery that could compete against Spidey's, but I just don't think they're used enough and obviously lack in the fame department (With the public anyway).

This makes me curious. Because I have seen many people say "Flash has a great rogues gallery". But I know very little about them, could you enlighten me by telling me a bit about the best of his rogues, and what makes them so formidable against Batman's, Spider-Man's, or the X-Mens?

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Riddlersriddle

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@nerdattack said:

This makes me curious. Because I have seen many people say "Flash has a great rogues gallery". But I know very little about them, could you enlighten me by telling me a bit about the best of his rogues, and what makes them so formidable against Batman's, Spider-Man's, or the X-Mens?

Well first of all you've got all the Rogues who make up a fair bit of his Rogues Gallery and are all pretty complex in their own right but most of all I'd say Captain Cold is the one who stands out. Snart has a personal set of ethics that he sticks to so he isn't just some two-bit thug with a cold gun - he's a pretty complex character as he never kills innocents (Getting pretty angry at Boomerang's son when he does) and doesn't allow the rest of the Rogues to take drugs whilst on the team (Even if it is to keep them more focused, it's still a pretty fascinating aspect of his character as he even beats up Mirror Master over it). Cold also has a great relationship with The Flash as he kind of has a mutual respect for him and once stopped a fight so Barry could save a child in time (If I remember correctly). His relationship with his sister Golden Glider is also great and Snart was deeply affected after her murder; tracking down her killer and returning the favour. It's not often we see a villain with this kind of ethics in comics and it's handled really well as Snart is still a badass and no push-over.

The rest of the rogues have some great attributes to them as well (E.g. Heatwave's obsession with flames that he doesn't even want, Pied Piper's relationship with David Singh and his reformation, Trickster's intelligence and occasional willingness to help someone out, Captain Boomerang's stints on the Suicide Squad and priority for self preservation, etc.). Also the whole family dynamic between the Rogues is really brilliant and not often seen between villains.

You also have Eobard Thawne's sick obsession with Barry Allen whom he'll go to any lengths to traumatise and Zoom's goal to make The Flash a better villain by any means he deems necessary. You've also got Abra Kadabra's obsessive need for an audience and to put on a good show, Gorilla Grodd wanting revenge against humans, Dr. Alchemy's almost split personality, Murmur's insanity, etc. Pretty much all of Flash's rogues gallery also have great designs to match as well.

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NerdAttack

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@riddlersriddle: Thank you. That helps me understand these arguments much better.
However, what is your personal opinion on their actual formlessness against the Flash? The Flash is often cited as one of the strongest characters in the DC Universe, reaching impossible speeds. This makes characters such as Captain Cold, kind of... arbitrary for him, like if Superman had Batman's rogues gallery. I understand the other speedsters. But Captain Boomerang, Captain Cold, Mirror Master, etc? How do they possibly compete or pose any challenge for him?

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Riddlersriddle

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@nerdattack: No problem, happy to help.

If I'm honest I can't excuse most of the Rogues' usefulness against The Flash but for Captain Cold and a few of the others I think I can. Cold has the most advanced cold-gun in the DC universe (Surpassing Mr. Freeze's and others like Icicle) as it can reach temperatures to absolute zero to slow the Flash down as absolute zero renders atoms motionless (I believe) - the gun doesn't really fire ice like Mr. Freeze's, instead it creates a forcefield almost of absolute zero which is how he can take on The Flash.

I can't really excuse Captain Boomerang but I suppose you could say some of his enhanced boomerangs could potentially do something against Flash - honestly I think Boomerang's lack of something exceptional against the Flash is a reason as to why he's primarily featured on The Suicide Squad now instead of going up against speedsters. Mirror Master's tech and use of the mirror dimension are both pretty powerful and he can create some illusions so that's how he typically manages to stand his ground - kind of the same reason for Abra Kadabra as well as his tech is incredibly advanced and is able to affect the Flash in any way he wants really.

I suppose it all comes down to tech really (Oh and a lot of fluctuating power abilities on both sides aha).

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NerdAttack

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I'm kind of conflicted about Spidey's rogues gallery, I mean there are some gems in there but I feel like a lot of them are just style over substance and many are vastly overrated imo (Most notable for me being Doctor Octopus, I've just never seen the character's appeal in the majority of the comics he appears in). Although I can't really think of another contender for the second best rogues gallery other than Spidey as no others (Apart from Batman's) have such a large and recognisable gauntlet of foes (However I do think The Flash has better villains but they're just not well known enough/utilised a lot to warrant giving them the second place).

Thank you for all that you've said! Really gives me a new appreciation for his rogues.

Also, although I agree with you that Spider-man's rogues are quite over-rated. Doctor Octopus is an interesting choice, since he is one of the best and most deep rogues out there. Just look at his evolution from Leader of the Sinister Six, to Superior Spider-Man, where he takes a shot at being a good guy.

Not to mention his fantastic cinematic version in Sam Raimi's Spider-Man 2.


A quick argument for some of my other favourites:
Green Goblin is one of the most influential villains in the marvel universe; taking on a similar role to Lex Luthor in the dc universe.

Venom over the years has also become extremely influential, playing a big part in not only Spider-Man's stories, but Deadpools, Guardians of the Galaxy, Thor, Hulk, Wolverine, and others, especially including his spawn and influences, like Carnage, Riot, and the other Klyntarr.

Kraven the Hunter's saving grace is the story "Kraven's Last Hunt" which is worthy of praise. But also his work on the Sinister Six, and his role against Black Panther and Wakanda.


Hobgoblin also is a very interesting character, severely under-rated because of his name and seemingly being a rip-off of green goblin.

Harry Osborn (son of Norman Osborn, the 1st green goblin) is also under-rated... potential wise. His story potential is amazing, just consider the Sam Raimi trilogy again.

The Vulture, Mysterio, Sandman, Chameleon, Rhino, are all old rogues with a whole lot of history, which has made them come in contact with lots of the Marvel universe, whilst also developing interesting dynamics and personalities, and they each contribute different obstacles to the Spider.

The Shocker is basically a Flash Villain but for Spider-Man. Having a similar style to his rogues like Captain Cold. When he's done well, he's played as a joke, but that's kinda the point of his character.

Wow. Who knew Id end up defending Spider-Man here.... I promise Im not a fanboy lol!

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Riddlersriddle

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@nerdattack: No problem, I'm glad I could get someone else interested in the Rogues as they're often overlooked.

Tbh I'm not that well read on Dock Ock but the majority of stories I've read him in he's just come off as annoying and pretty lame. Although the one exception to that for the stories I've read is "Last Legs" where Ock takes over New York as that was a pretty great story - I haven't read Superior Spiderman yet but it does sound pretty interesting so I'm probably being unfair by just going of off the comics I've read. I do really enjoy him in Spider-Man 2 though, I feel like they greatly improved on the comics there.

Don't get me wrong I do love Spider-Man's rogues gallery but I just love the Flash's that bit more aha. Plus I've never really been a fan of Rhino or Kraven either (I just never really got into Kraven's last hunt). They are a great bunch of villains though.