Why Goku is not universal/Debunking universal Goku

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Lordsavage21

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#1  Edited By Lordsavage21

Ok firstly lets establish why Goku is considered universal level

During Goku's fight with Beerus they were punching each other so hard it was capable of producing shockwaves that were stated to be capable of destroying the universe:

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The reason people strongly believe in this is because its backed by the Narrator for one:

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And its even backed up by Whis:

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Now lets establish something

Goku isn't universal

1. Firstly because the shockwaves were going to destroy the universe because they got stronger the further they went:

This is important because number 1 the sacred world of the kais was not destroy by the shockwaves, which is outside the DB macrocosm:

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Which makes old kai's statement unreliable in regards to the shockwaves being universal, if his statement was true then why would it not destroy the world of the kais, which is the furthest you can get?

2. The Narrator also says Beerus was going full power

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When we know is not true, which shows that the narrator is not reliable and is mostly just repeating statements that other characters (who are unreliable) have said and is meant to not spoil stuff to the audience

But lets accept the fist clash is universal, lets say it is

Old Kai stated Beerus, Goku and everyone which includes Whis would die from the shockwaves

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Now we have established none of the cast on DBS can stop power capable of destroying the universe, this is backed by this person who is a staff in DB:

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Who states only Zeno is capable of destroying the universe, we also have to take into account that old kai himself wasn't sure if it would destroy the universe:

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He uses the words "may" or "maybe", implying that he could be wrong, now all this proves Goku is not universal, but the shockwaves themselves may have been, here is more info on why Goku is not universal,

Zamasu was fusing with the universe only:

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Yet Goku couldn't destroy him with pure DC.

Zamasu only stated he was going to wipe out the galaxy when he was in his normal state:

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Why would a universal level being need his full power just to wipe out a galaxy with pure DC?

Why would a stronger character like Moro with all his energy swollen aka no ki control involved?

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Why would a character that is way stronger be only be capable of wiping out the galaxy? Many say this is a mistranslation but even then a couple galaxies?

Anyways all of this contradicts universal level Goku, Goku is not universal level by pure DC, anything that mentions "power capable of destroying the universe" in BOG is referring to the shockwaves, the shockwaves don't scale to their AP as even stronger characters have only shown to be galaxy level and the staff himself debunks that notion.

Hell even Whis himself (Who is leagues stronger than Goku and Beerus) confirms he can't stop the universal level shockwaves, and Old Kai himself stating Beerus and everyone (which includes Whis) would die from the universal level shockwave.

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TakenStew22

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Is this your 5th alt or something kidsavage?

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NighStar666

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Is this your 5th alt or something kidsavage?

Probably and @Frozen ( banned user using alt to come back )

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Lordsavage21

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Bump

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AxiomPulse

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#5  Edited By AxiomPulse

Fused zamasu is considered a normal state? Pretty sure being fused and powered up is not a "normal state". Did you also not notice that he was incredibly beat up at that point?

MUI being below universal when ssjg being way much inferior already put the universe at the brink of destruction is contradictory to the fullest. You making it seem like "x" was going to do this "event" and that is the only thing their power can do which is naive.

Whis saying he cant be able to stop it is due to his angelic laws he can't intervene as stated numerous times or otherwise he would get the Merus treatment. Also beerus was going to intervene but the grand priest calls whis that zeno wanted to meet them right at the spot.

These are just one of the few points stated because a lot of what you said doesn't make sense or just misrepresenting what they can do.

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Lordsavage21

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@axiompulse said:

Fused zamasu is considered a normal state? Pretty sure being fused and powered up is not a "normal state". Did you also not notice that he was incredibly beat up at that point?

MUI being below universal when ssjg being way much inferior already put the universe at the brink of destruction is contradictory to the fullest. You making it seem like "x" was going to do this event that is the only thing their power can do which is naive.

Already debunked how SSG Goku himself isn't universal, only the shockwaves are which is backed by Beerus being stated to die from the shockwaves, Whis stating he can't stop the universal power, Goku not being capable of killing universal sized Zamasu, Staff saying Goku can't destroy the universe and dragon ball villains later on only being galaxy level

Whis saying he cant be able to stop it is due to his angelic laws he can't intervene as stated numerous times or otherwise he would get the Merus treatment.

There is no angelic laws as Whis has been shown to intervene if needed, example is the Beerus vs Champa fight

These are just one of the few points stated because a lot of what you said doesn't make sense or just misrepresenting what they can do.

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AxiomPulse

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#7  Edited By AxiomPulse
@lordsavage21 said:

@axiompulse said:

Fused zamasu is considered a normal state? Pretty sure being fused and powered up is not a "normal state". Did you also not notice that he was incredibly beat up at that point?

MUI being below universal when ssjg being way much inferior already put the universe at the brink of destruction is contradictory to the fullest. You making it seem like "x" was going to do this event that is the only thing their power can do which is naive.

Already debunked how SSG Goku himself isn't universal, only the shockwaves are which is backed by Beerus being stated to die from the shockwaves, Whis stating he can't stop the universal power, Goku not being capable of killing universal sized Zamasu, Staff saying Goku can't destroy the universe and dragon ball villains later on only being galaxy level

Whis saying he cant be able to stop it is due to his angelic laws he can't intervene as stated numerous times or otherwise he would get the Merus treatment.

There is no angelic laws as Whis has been shown to intervene if needed, example is the Beerus vs Champa fight

These are just one of the few points stated because a lot of what you said doesn't make sense or just misrepresenting what they can do.

Are you being serious right now....... like you did watch DBS?

The old kai stating that beerus would die due to shock waves is false since beerus wasnt even using his full power even whis noticed that beerus lied about using 70% of his power. Bruh how the hell is Goku going to kill an immortal? Also universal zamasu was encompassing space time so that already makes him a 4D being as showing even affecting the main timeline.

The staff =/= the author so their opinions are just that.

Whis and vados intervened because they are their ASSISTANTS and are there to put them in check even stating both that 2 gods are not allowed to fight each other since due to the fact that if they did both universes would get destroyed. Moro is not a god of destruction therefore whis has no right to intervene in mortal affairs unless ordered to.

Also, yeah right see beerus and champa being worried about destroying the universe and taking the blast with them smh:

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What you have done so far is misrepresent the feats and twist it to your narrative. None of what you said makes sense and its just full downgrading them.

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deactivated-618aa1f6798c4

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Great debunk. A new day where the universal wank of Goku is debunked. Thumbs up.

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DemarG

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Universe size Zamasu? Goku blowing him up?

Lol in the same ep Goku, Trunks, and Vegeta tried to destroy him.. But guess what, he no sold the attack..

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And let's also ignore the fact that if Goku blows up the universe.

He kinda uh, dies lol.

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DemarG

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"Now we have established none of the cast on DBS can stop power capable of destroying the universe"

Awful

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Pandalumina

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this def needs a lock

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Synsyn

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Nice debunk, you're absolutely right and no one has been able to debunk it.

Goku is just multi galaxy.

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physicalculturi

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Goku can't survive in space and you think he'd survive busting a universe?

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Idontknowa

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Goku can't survive in space and you think he'd survive busting a universe?

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SeiyaSaiyaJin

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#16  Edited By SeiyaSaiyaJin
IIRC Some of the OP's points also already got brought up and debunked. But then again, it's another alt of kidsavage.
@pandaemperoriv said:

this def needs a lock

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AxiomPulse

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LimitBreaker1

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nice kidsavage ignoring context just to downplay dragonball. Please ban this guy again

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darkeryoda

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#19  Edited By darkeryoda

what this guy is saying is not wrong only thing this guy say is wrong is that beerus is not universal, because he is above that.

only MUI goku is universal rest all are below.

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LordTwigo

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I wonder how long this will last before the mods lock this thread

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HarryNorine

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what this guy is saying is not wrong only thing this guy say is wrong is that beerus is not universal, because he is above that.

only MUI goku is universal rest all are below.

i see you are trying desperately to not get your darth sidious vs db universe thread from being locked.

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tagsorwhatever

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I wonder how long this will last before the mods lock this thread

yep.

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NighStar666

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Anyway

The kaio world is a different plane of existence

Goku tried destroying it , Zamasu no sold

Goku destroying planet would kill him due to oxygen

Goku doesn't want to destroy future Trunks's universe as he have no way to bring it back .

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NinjaRizer

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I think this thread proves a lot of things. It proves that people aren’t intellectually consistent. If you’re going to use narration to prove your point, you can’t discard other narration because it doesn’t fit your narrative.

It says they were destroying the universe, fine.

It also says Beerus used his full power, everybody including Beerus was gonna die from the universe being destroyed, and that Whis couldn’t stop the universe from being destroyed.

It’s like a tortology. You don’t believe the other statements because of… the first statement?

And if your argument is that the series has also debunked and retconned those statements, what about the galaxy statements from the manga? Don’t they retcon the universal narration too? Or at least downgrade him to Galaxy or Multi-Galaxy?

People literally scale the entire of DBS off that one narration, getting Goku to absurd levels like 1000 times universal, yet ignore the other narrations because it doesn’t fit their narrative. Asinine.

You can’t have your cake and eat it.

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Morningstar999

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#25  Edited By Morningstar999

@ninjarizer:

Nothing said that they would have died here. Frieza himself was stated able to destroy the whole universe in Golden Form, and Goku and Vegeta beat him, in RoF arc.

It's quite dishonest to imply current Goku is just multi galaxy level, when power of that tier exists back in DB Kai/Z. Note how Heaven is universe sized and the Dai Kaiō planet is comparable?

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Note how the Supreme Kai planet is HARDERto be destroyed, yet Goku and Kid Buu caused massive shockwaves visible from orbit on the planet, which has multiple suns orbitating it? Note how Kid Buu casually destroys a galaxy?

This thread is a classic bait thread against the DB fandom, nothing more. And any person believing franchises like Bleach are universal in AP in any way, shape or form, doesn't have the right to create such a thread.

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Eredin12

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#26  Edited By Eredin12

@ninjarizer:

It also says Beerus used his full power, everybody including Beerus was gonna die from the universe being destroyed, and that Whis couldn’t stop the universe from being destroyed.

The narrator does not say that, he only said that they traded blows with universe busting force,

that their beam clash would destroy the universe:

For Beerus going all out, he may have said that as well, which means that was intent at the time, but it got retconned later, Beerus power level got retconned many times, while them being universal did not, it is the case by a case basis, just because one thing gets retconned does not mean others were as well. Only Old Kai in anime implied them dying, and that was debunked on screen when we literally see both Goku and Beers no sell universe busting sphere exploding in their face, an explosion hit them both before Beeurs erased it:

and we also know that Whis was lying that he cannot stop it, since even base Goku erased and tanked the second universal sphere with one punch

making even base Goku universal+, it is all case by a case basis, not hypocrisy on our part, you use something unless it is shown to be false on screen, but just because one thing is shown to be false, does not mean others are also false without evidence.

what about the galaxy statements from the manga?

Mistranslation, it meant all galaxies

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Pandalumina

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lmaolmaolmao

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Good job proving they aren't universal for like the 10208202010th time. But the efforts are becoming redundant. People that possess the ability to exercise unbiased rational thinking all understand that Goku isn't universal by now. Those that don't understand it by now...they never will. Maybe they haven't been blessed with an average IQ or maybe delusions cloud their ability to exercise rational thinking, but whatever it is they are beyond help and no amount of threads are convincing them.

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NighStar666

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#31  Edited By NighStar666
@nighstar666 said:

Anyway

The kaio world is a different plane of existence

Goku tried destroying it , Zamasu no sold

Goku destroying planet would kill him due to oxygen

Goku doesn't want to destroy future Trunks's universe as he have no way to bring it back .

No more was needed to be said at the first place .

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NinjaRizer

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@morningstar999: I’m referring to the OP, where the narration in the Anime states they would also be destroyed. The manga doesn’t state it, but the anime does.

Secondly, you didn’t evaluate the Frieza scan properly. It obviously wasn’t referring to Golden Frieza’s power, it says

’who ONCE threatened to destroy the universe, WAS resurrected and went to attack the earth’

This is OBVIOUSLY referring to Frieza before he died, not after he was resurrected in his Golden form (obviously?). Unless Namek Frieza universal? It’s referring to his mentality, as a person who just wanted to destroy everything. Was he resurrected before in a universal form that i’m not aware of?

If you have to stretch and twist a statement like that to grant Frieza Universal stats, then don’t talk about Bleach. There’s literally virtually equivalent statements to the one you just used to put Frieza at Universal, except yours is just used completely wrong.

Youre implying DBZ Kai is universal? Fine :) You’re getting to this conclusion from a statement that says Heaven is universal, using wildly inconsistent visual evidence? Fine :)

Then you can never ever claim Bleach isn’t universal, as if it delegitimises my opinion. There’s literally better universal statements in the novels LOL.

Regardless of this, here’s my question to you. When the anime narrates Beerus would die when the universe is destroyed (Read the OP) is it wrong?

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tagsorwhatever

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so a goat still solo.nice

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lmaolmaolmao

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so a goat still solo.nice

Why post this on a DB thread tho

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Eredin12

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#35  Edited By Eredin12

@lmaolmaolmao:

possess the ability to exercise unbiased rational thinking,

with an average IQ

But you possess none of those though?

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lmaolmaolmao

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@morningstar999:

Nothing said that they would have died here. Frieza himself was stated able to destroy the whole universe in Golden Form, and Goku and Vegeta beat him, in RoF arc.

Why are you using Manga scans to defend Anime version? Also when was Freeza stated to be able to destroy the universe?

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NinjaRizer

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@eredin12: All this evidence is fair. In a nutshell, you’re claiming that other narrations were retconned while others (in this case the universal narration) is sustained. Fair.

But forgive me if i’m being ignorant, but it seems like you’re just supporting the initial universal narration by using… other universal narrations? It’s like I said, tautological.

Beerus’ power has been retconned many times, that seems to be the case. But couldn’t the universal narration also as well be retconned, such as Goku not being able to destroy Zamasu, and basically everything the OP said? It seems like a empty argument to use the same narrations to back up other narrations, especially being from the same arc.

For example, Dyspo being said to move at faster than light speeds or something comparable (obviously implied to be a significant thing), although mentioned later in the series, was completely retconned. Or some outrageous argument was made to completely ignore the intent of the significance of surpassing light speed and say ‘faster that light could mean MFTL++++ as well’ or some comparable drivel. Why didn’t this retcon the speed of DBS?

Why do you guys pick and choose? You’ll find tons of evidence to support the high ends, yet ignore all evidence for the low ends, like this OP.

Even if it says multi-galaxy, they should be WAY above that level at this point, pushing into multi-universal.

It’s almost as if the author doesn’t care about the power levels at all or withholding the consistency, and fans just interpret them how they wish.

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DemarG

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@ninjarizer: They tried too, Zamasu no sold the attack..

Plus they were tired.

Even if they destroyed Zamasu, what happens?

They all die, the time machine is gone, and they die to the lack of air..

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deactivated-61ffbb71d792f

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so a goat still solo.nice

Yeah we all know goku is a goat :)

He always solos :P

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Eredin12

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#40  Edited By Eredin12

@ninjarizer:

@eredin12: All this evidence is fair. In a nutshell, you’re claiming that other narrations were retconned while others (in this case the universal narration) is sustained. Fair.

Yep, case by case basis like with most of the things in life

, but it seems like you’re just supporting the initial universal narration by using… other universal narrations? .

Well, yea, since the narration from the omniscient narrator is true unless directly debunked on screen, which in the case of universal power was never the case, we only saw mere side effects of their clash cover multiple universes in energy/ shockwaves, which supports that idea, but does not retcon/ debunk it, while Beeurs going all out was retconned to be a lie, and Old Kai implying that they would die was shown not to be the case when they literally no sold explosion that was going to destroy the universe and base Goku erased and tanked the second sphere at the epicenter with zero damage, in fact, just use basic logic and critical thinking here, if Beerus himself was in any danger of dying in the clash, then surely he would not chose to try and destroy the universe, as he is not suicidal but fears for his life a lot as we saw in Super, and yet he tried to destroy it, Goku was one that saved it with that third punch, if he failled there would be a big boom and universe would be gone, so clearly Beerus thought he was in no danger in that event, and he knows his own power the best.

"But forgive me if i’m being ignorant"

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lol....

Beerus’ power has been retconned many times, that seems to be the case. But couldn’t the universal narration also as well be retconned, such as Goku not being able to destroy Zamasu, and basically everything the OP said? It seems like a empty argument to use the same narrations to back up other narrations, especially being from the same arc.

It could, but it was not, Zamasu infected the entire timeline, not just one universe, Zeno needed to erase it all to destroy him, and remember that he was made immortal by Super Shenron, only someone more powerful than him could erase Zamasu, and Goku while far above baseline universal is not nearly as powerful as reality warper on that level, that is why he could not destroy him, that as well as since he was weakened, Goku himself said if he had Snezu beam he could do something

OP brought debunked garbage, he is a troll

For example, Dyspo being said to move at faster than light speeds or something comparable (obviously implied to be a significant thing), although mentioned later in the series, was completely retconned. Or some outrageous argument was made to completely ignore the intent of the significance of surpassing light speed and say ‘faster that light could mean MFTL++++ as well’ or some comparable drivel. Why didn’t this retcon the speed of DBS?

Faster than Light can mean infinitely faster than it yea, it is a spectrum/range, not a number, it was never implied to be big deal either, we just learned that Dypso is also faster than Light, that is why.

Why do you guys pick and choose? You’ll find tons of evidence to support the high ends, yet ignore all evidence for the low ends, like this OP.

We don't, we go by case by case basis, by evidence

It’s almost as if the author doesn’t care about the power levels at all or withholding the consistency, and fans just interpret them how they wish.

We have feats that show otherwise though

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DemarG

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Oh yeah, Zamasu was also in two timelines I forgot about that. LMFAOOO

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DemarG

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NinjaRizer

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@demarg: The whole tired thing is fair. I genuinely think it’s dishonest to state that Goku, even at full power, would have been able to bust Zamasu, when he could barely scratch his balls in a weaker form.

Goku in the manga flew in the universe that Zeno erased anyway, so he would have survived.

Are you implying that he could have destroyed Universal Zamasu, but it was just disadvantageous?

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tauio

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Man this never gets old

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DemarG

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@ninjarizer:

Idk really, but Zamasu wished to be immortal, he no sold 3 attacks ( that were pretty strong but they were tired.). But really I don't think so, he was also leaking in another timeline and fused with space and all that nonsense.

Well I don't take that manga part legit, since you know. Goku moved in Deleted/Erased Time.

And the Anime and Manga always tells us Vegeta/Goku can't survive the vacuum of space.

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Galactus616

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#46  Edited By Galactus616

Next up: "Why The Flash isn't FTL" 😂😂😂

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deactivated-6150b510ece22

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@lmaolmaolmao said:

Good job proving they aren't universal for like the 10208202010th time. But the efforts are becoming redundant. People that possess the ability to exercise unbiased rational thinking all understand that Goku isn't universal by now. Those that don't understand it by now...they never will. Maybe they haven't been blessed with an average IQ or maybe delusions cloud their ability to exercise rational thinking, but whatever it is they are beyond help and no amount of threads are convincing them.

This^ Only people that not accept the evidence are always the same. No one here debunked his post yet. CV community can ignore them.