Why do people consider Rey to be SJW/Mary Sue?

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beh8272

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Poll: Why do people consider Rey to be SJW/Mary Sue? (37 votes)

I think she is Mary Sue/SJW 76%
I think she is not Mary Sue/SJW 24%

I can understand thinking that for some characters, but what has she done to lead people to think of her as Mary Sue? Her whole thing is that she is uniquely powerful.

There have been many other people in Star Wars who were uniquely powerful and could contend with skilled fighters.

I just think that the only reason people say that Rey is Mary Sue is because they’re too sensitive

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ReaperTheGrim

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All the surrounding character's love her for no apparent reason even her enemies, none of her actions and mistakes have any consequences and she succeeds at every thing she tries on her first go even when she logically shouldn't, it's standard mary sue characteristics.

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MAZAHS117

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Joker567892

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Eh maybe a Mary sue, not a SJW.

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TheSpartanB345T

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Daruma

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She matched a trained With Lord in saber combat without any training.

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Mike_Fowler

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#6  Edited By Mike_Fowler

@reaperthegrim: succeeds at everything she tries? That’s, really not true

A lot of major things she tries to do, in particular in TLJ, she fails at. Getting Kylo back to the light side, getting Luke to accompany her to confront Kylo (with Yoda being the actual reason he goes), she fails saving her friends in those escape pods, and she’s left at the end of the movie feeling completely uncertain of her role.

Long story short, in particular saying she succeeds at everything she tries really ain’t true man. And that second thing she fails at (redeeming Kylo) is practically what helps lead to the almost complete decimation of the resistance.

To address the main topic, she ain’t a Mary Sue. Someone like Starkiller from The Force Unleashed has more qualities of being a “Gary Stu” than Tey of being a “Mary Sue”. There’s problems with the writing and then there’s being a Mary Sue, Rey could apply to the former, but she ain’t the latter

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TheVivas

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@mike_fowler: How is Starkiller a Gary Stu? Because he’s “too powerful”?

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ReaperTheGrim

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@mike_fowler: can defeat a sith apprentice the first time she touches a lightsaber, can use jedi mine trick's on her first try without knowing anything about the force, can fly a ship that she's never been on before on her first try, know's how to repair that ship better than it's captain of over 20 years after being on the ship a couple day's, kills three ships in one casual blast from a turret the first time she ever uses it, can speak wookie just because, embarrasses and terrifies force masters like yoda and luke a couple day's into training, and has leia finn po and kylo utterly devoted to her almost as soon as they meet her for no other reason than how amazing she is, she is the biggest example of a mary sue i can recall from modern cinema and is far more of a sue than star killer and regardless when it comes to writing a story mary sue's are factually inferior to gary stue's becuase of the diffrent portayel's of men an women in fiction where gary stue's are at least a force that drives the plot through there efforts at showing how amazing they are while sue's simply get dragged along the plot by other character's because they have no drive beyond doing the right thing.

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Mike_Fowler

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@thevivas: it’s not that he is one, what I’m saying though is that the man has the traits of one. Namely of being a self insert character that the developers made in order to allow players to live the ultimate fantasy of utilising the “powers of the force”

The secret apprentice that Vader has that was the son of two effectively nobody Jedi that ends up both sparking the rebel alliance (with his family crest being the symbol for it) and along with that actually beats Vader (and not even mentioning the dude’s other feats like redirecting the star destroyer) it’s definitely the traits of one.

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TheVivas

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@mike_fowler:

it’s not that he is one, what I’m saying though is that the man has the traits of one.

He doesn't but okay.

Namely of being a self insert character that the developers made in order to allow players to live the ultimate fantasy of utilising the “powers of the force”

What does that have to do with him being a Gary Stu?

The secret apprentice that Vader has that was the son of two effectively nobody Jedi

Why do his parents have to be powerful Jedi for him to be a powerful Force user? Is Obi-Wan a Gary Stu because he's powerful when his parents weren't? Is Mace Windu a Gary Stu for that reason?

that ends up both sparking the rebel alliance (with his family crest being the symbol for it)

He helped to gather the leaders of the Rebellion and stormed the unfinished Death Star, ultimately sacrificing his life to get them to safety, but he's a Gary Stu because they used his family crest for the Rebellion after all he did?

and along with that actually beats Vader

We know Starkiller has been trained since he was a young kid, we know he grew stronger throughout the game, and he had a tough fight against a Vader that we later learn only grew more powerful from that time until RotJ. How does beating Vader make him a Gary Stu when they've also sparred countless times in the past?

and not even mentioning the dude’s other feats like redirecting the star destroyer) it’s definitely the traits of one.

Is Yoda a Gary Stu because he has crazy powerful Force feats too then?

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Mike_Fowler

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#11  Edited By Mike_Fowler

@thevivas: First, you know that part of being a Mary Sue, Gary Stu, whichever, is that said character is meant to fulfill a role of either author insert or wish fulfilment right? When the developers flat out say he (and his game) is meant to be completely over the top and allow the player to feel like “the most powerful force user of all time” yeah, I’d say that’s the definition of a Gary Stu trait.

Second, here’s an example of a Star Wars fanfic. My O.C. is one that was active during let’s say episode 6 and 7. He was someone that was an apprentice to Luke and this guy was ridiculous. His force potential was through the roof, he could potentially beat Luke, he could use force lightning even while having a heavy affinity for the light side, the whole shebang. Ultimately before the events of TFA, my character ends up saving the life of Leia

See how this character above is a clear self insert character that’s meant to fulfil a writer’s wish fulfilment? Tweak that, and you can get Starkiller. It ain’t just about his feats those are relatively small parts compared to the concept of his story and how his actions were (formerly) meant to be eternalized and he basically was a major part of getting some of the events of the films set in motion. Again though, I’m not even saying he is a Gary Stu. But he sure as shit does still have certain traits of one, and I really don’t see how one can deny that when the developers practically admitted to him being a wish fulfilment character

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cKarma

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Lmao at comparing some random orphan to the son of a Jedi Master kidnapped at birth and trained in assassinating Jedi Masters

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KillBilly

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#13  Edited By KillBilly

An SJW and Mary Sue are two very different things... Rey is the latter, not the former.

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MarvelandDCfan24

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She can somehow do anything and beat anyone the plot throws at her with no explanation at all

Characters like that are boring especially with no back story she literally is just a chick who was left in a dessert world then one day became the universes most powerful being shes just awfully written boring no character substance at all

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deactivated-5deda96fc6dfd

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She is not Superman

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mimisalome

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#16  Edited By mimisalome

Because she is a poorly written character inserted in a universe that interacts with her in a very irrational manner and is generally portrayed in situations to satisfy power fantasies and wish fulfillment of the audience.

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Wolfrazer

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@ckarma said:

Lmao at comparing some random orphan to the son of a Jedi Master kidnapped at birth and trained in assassinating Jedi Masters

Eh, Kento Marek wasn't a Jedi Master, but a Jedi Knight. Still, yeah both Galen's parents were fully trained Jedi Knights.

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TheVivas

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@mike_fowler:

First, you know that part of being a Mary Sue, Gary Stu, whichever, is that said character is meant to fulfill a role of either author insert or wish fulfilment right? When the developers flat out say he (and his game) is meant to be completely over the top and allow the player to feel like “the most powerful force user of all time” yeah, I’d say that’s the definition of a Gary Stu trait.

With that incredibly vague definition of a "trait', every video game character is apparently a Mary Sue/Gary Stu.

But he sure as shit does still have certain traits of one, and I really don’t see how one can deny that when the developers practically admitted to him being a wish fulfilment character

He literally doesn't, and with the examples you're giving me, I can call any character a Mary Sue/Gary Stu.

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King-Ragnar

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An obvious bait thread is an obvious bait thread.

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Rebake

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An obvious bait thread is an obvious bait thread.

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Crater_Maker

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She beat a Sith apprentice after using the lightsaber once

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Vishop_

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#22 Vishop_  Online

An obvious bait thread is an obvious bait thread.

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Mike_Fowler

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#23  Edited By Mike_Fowler

@thevivas: Unless you choose to be wilfully obtuse, it’s damn obvious what I mean when I say “wish fulfilment”. When they’re admitting that they’re purposely blowing things (in this case the usage of the force) out of proportion for the purpose of allowing their character (and thus, the player) to live their fantasy, when said character ends up all of a sudden becoming a major piece of a story that had come into place around 30 or so years prior, yeah, I’d say that’s a pretty obvious trait of it mate. I’m not even fully calling him a Gary Stu, but I’m also not gonna deny the whole “character coming in with a core aspect of their universe being reimagined to fit their purposely exaggerated power and becoming a major factor in their universe in a “the events that happened in these films was set in motion all thanks to THEM” type manner (and obviously being completely unmentioned before)” stuff aren’t at least some traits of it.

Wanna know why the whole “I can call any character a Mary Sue” crap doesn’t work? Because unlike a good amount of characters, they weren’t inserted in between two films with an established power scale and suddenly given exaggerated power and immediate importance while still (at the time) meaning to be canon to said films. So to answer what you said earlier, no, it’s not just cause “he’s too powerful” it’s more to do with his actual placement in the story. His power is what enables him to actually do that shit though so it’s still a part

But hey, if you still wanna deny that what was just described are at least some traits of being a wish fulfilment/self insert character, be my guest.

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Batvibe12

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Because she is a powerful woman.

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KingOfWakanda

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Because she has a vagina? Luke is just as Gary Stu-ish and people have no issue with it. They're basically on the same damn arc.

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Uttarashada

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Go on YouTube watch force awakens review by E;r. U'll get ur answer there.

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Cognitive

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#27 Cognitive  Online
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Rey’s not a SJW. Kathleen Kennedy might be, but I thinks she’s just a traditional feminist looking to place women into positions of power and decision-making where historically they’ve been occupied by men. Rey’s Mary Sue attributes are the result of wanting to create an instant female hero combatively equal to males of the past.

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godzilla44

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Because she has a vagina? Luke is just as Gary Stu-ish and people have no issue with it. They're basically on the same damn arc.

Yeah because he defeated Vader easily after training with Yoda, he didn't even lose a limb or anything.............

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KingOfWakanda

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@godzilla44: Kylo Ren =/= Darth Vader. Luke had a pep talk from Obi Wan and some wax on/wax off Mr. Miyagi mumbo jumbo from Yoda before he took on Vader. Not like he was extensively trained.

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godzilla44

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@godzilla44: Kylo Ren =/= Darth Vader. Luke had a pep talk from Obi Wan and some wax on/wax off Mr. Miyagi mumbo jumbo from Yoda before he took on Vader. Not like he was extensively trained.

I can't even take this argument seriously, never said Kylo=Vader, and even AFTER being trained by the greatest Jedi Master of all time Luke still LOST to Vader and lost a hand in the process but yes please tell me Luke was a Gary Stu.

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KingOfWakanda

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@godzilla44: Ok, what lightsaber training did Yoda provide for Luke's lightsaber duel with Vader? He was teaching him the basics of the force, stuff you'd teach a youngling. Yes he lost to Vader, but he was doing well against someone with light years more experience. Then he comes back in ROTJ and beats Vader with one lightsaber fight's worth of experience as duelist.

You can't compare Luke going up against Vader with minimal training against Rey going up against Kylo with no training because Kylo is nowhere near Vader. Kylo let Finn score a hit off him.

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Insertnewname

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#33  Edited By Insertnewname

@thevivas said:

@mike_fowler:

With that incredibly vague definition of a "trait', every video game character is apparently a Mary Sue/Gary Stu.

Most characters are, though. Or how else would you describe someone who is friends with everybody and goes from average to godhood in power? Thats like the premise of 99% of videogames

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EmmaFrostXmen

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The character herself isn’t an SJW, but the agenda behind her is

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TheVivas

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@kingofwakanda: “Then he comes back in ROTJ and beats Vader with one lightsaber fight's worth of experience as duelist.“

So you can confirm for a fact that Luke didn’t fight anyone or train himself anymore between ESB and ROTJ? You can confirm that without a doubt and with evidence stating such?

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TheVivas

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@mike_fowler: None is that is Gary Stu traits and just sounds like you complaining about Starkiller in general while trying to defend the Mary Sue traits of Rey behind “well other characters are worse so she can’t be one”.

I’ve given enough effort and time to this discussion.

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KingOfWakanda

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@thevivas said:

@kingofwakanda: “Then he comes back in ROTJ and beats Vader with one lightsaber fight's worth of experience as duelist.“

So you can confirm for a fact that Luke didn’t fight anyone or train himself anymore between ESB and ROTJ? You can confirm that without a doubt and with evidence stating such?

In canon, no one knows what he did except build a new lightsaber, get some black clothes and come up with a plan to rescue Han. He didn't train or fight with any other Jedi that we know of, since there are no other Jedi. There's no evidence of what he did or didn't do. He could have been wacking off for a year, though it's logical he did training on his own.

But what good is training on your own going to do? If I was a boxer with one fight under my belt, then I went off to go punch heavy bags and speed bags by myself for awhile I wouldn't be ready to take on the heavyweight champion of the world. That's essentially what Luke does.

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Mike_Fowler

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#38  Edited By Mike_Fowler

@thevivas: All you’ve done so far is essentially plug your ears and shout “nuh Uh that’s not a trait” You’ve done nothing to actually counter how someone who’s entire purpose was first and foremost ”being a wish fulfilment character with the rules of a preestablished universe being bent to allow said character to perform the things they do, and suddenly becoming a major piece of that universe” isn’t exhibiting at least one trait of it. Seriously, a SW game just came out that shows the difference between one and the other.

If that’s what you consider “effort” then you do you. And my entire damn point was that neither are Mary Sues. Mate, it’s possible to exhibit certain traits of one but still not be an actual one.

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TheVivas

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@kingofwakanda: So we don’t know what Luke did in his free time (except we do in Legends).

We know it’s “logical” that he trained.

And we know that his training was successful since he actually beat Vader the second time around.

Yet he’s a Gary Stu because he goes through actual growth and training.

Sure.

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TheVivas

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@mike_fowler: There’s nothing to counter. All you’re saying is “he’s a wish fulfillment character” which can be applied to every. Video. Game. Character. Ever.

And more griping about how he suddenly became a “major piece of the universe” as if that counts as being a Gary Stu trait. That has nothing to do with it at all. No rules were bent to allow him to exist or do what he does, and repeating that same gibberish doesn’t make it so.

So the developers of Fallen Order choosing to make Cal a human male so that the audience and players could identify with him more means he’s not a “wish fulfillment character”? Him being another surviving Jedi in a time where there weren’t any supposedly after ROTS isn’t bending the rules of the preestablished universe? Right.

It doesn’t matter if it’s possible to exhibit certain traits of a Gary Stu, since you literally haven’t proven that Starkiller does that. You just keep harping on about why he shouldn’t make sense and how he, like every other character made for a video game, is a wish fulfillment character.

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rogueshadow

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#41 rogueshadow  Moderator

There are a bunch of threads on this topic.