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#51 Posted by CosmicMuffin (476 posts) - - Show Bio

This is absolutely perfect.

There are films nominated purely for political reasons every year but nobody cares because they’re small indie films that made maybe $20 million at the box office at most. So nobody saw them, so nobody can complain. However Black Panther was seen by almost everyone, and it gets nominated for political reasons so now it’s popular to hate on it and people say “Disney bought the award” or “I’m done with the Oscars, they don’t even matter because it’s all political”, alright, where have you people been the last 20 years? Y’all only pissed because it’s basically a meme at this point to hate on Black Panther.

Also want to address that Black Panther was a huge contender in categories like Adapted Screenplay, Best Director, and supporting actor for Michael B. Jordan. On all the prediction websites, these categories ranked like 6th or 7th for the predicted nominees. When nominations came, it unfortunately didn’t make the cut for either 3. It was just too much of a crowded year. The Writers Guil Awards nominated BP for adapted screenplay, which is arguably more important than the writing award for the Oscars, and Black Panther’s acting was nominated at the Sceen Actors Guild Awards for best Ensemble. A category that the Academy for some reason doesn’t have, but for sure would have nominated Black Panther for. All the cast is great as a whole, but individually no one stood out to make it in the top 5. So basically it did those major awards very well, but just not well enough to get a nomination. But it was done well enough to be considered in another category—Best Picture. The category that recognizes every aspect of film as a whole.

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#52 Edited by adamTRMM (9144 posts) - - Show Bio

@theamazingspidey:

It doesn't execute its premise in such a way it stood out. Beside the superficial aspect of its protagonists' race and even more shallow commentary on race relations, it's just another CBM. With crappy CGI, mediocre dramaturgy, good acting and great score. It had its moments, but it had its cringe too. Nothing says the Best Picture in here to me.

My problem with this whole discussion is that some people will assume I'm coming with an agenda. And that would bother me. Another thing, just because other mediocre movies got a pass, we shouldn't make that an ongoing excuse. I'm still not sure what was so special about Get Out. But Fences was an amazing movie. Authentic and complex dispite its minimalism, that movie deserved all the praising now. That's the difference, actual quality as opposed to unimportant aspects.

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#53 Edited by Heatforce (6150 posts) - - Show Bio

I personally don't care; it's not going to win anyway. How often does a movie win best picture and not even get nominated for other categories? I have 4 movies in mind that would be real contenders if they were still relevant:

1. The Dark Knight

2. Captain America: Winter Soldier

3. Logan

4. Deadpool

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#54 Posted by deactivated-5ca9389143922 (596 posts) - - Show Bio

Stopped caring about Oscars after Leo got his.

We can die in peace

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#55 Posted by FaradaySloth (9191 posts) - - Show Bio

There wasn’t that much cultural impact imo, but I see your reasons.

Still wouldn’t consider it best picture material, quality of the film imo always goes first, anything else goes last

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#56 Edited by black_wreath (13557 posts) - - Show Bio

I don’t buy into an Oscar’s value but countless do so I ask with a huge budget, inevitable box office success, fully backed studio support and marketing + media coverage x 10 what does BP actually gain here that it didn’t already have? It’s not an underdog, blockbuster movies are not underdogs, they are the John Cena of movie genres. Those indie artsy films that usually get focused on by the Academy - they depend a lot more on these kinds of awards to get a look from the public so sorry I am not trying to discredit any of the wonderfully compelling arguments surmised here but I, personally, just see it as kind of a waste of a nomination.

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#57 Posted by Michaelbn (2350 posts) - - Show Bio

I remember a guy who said "You can be whatever you like. It's the land of opportunity. Any fool can become president." same goes for this movie.

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#58 Posted by solar_nerd (2625 posts) - - Show Bio

IMO it deserves everything it's been nominated for EXCEPT Best Picture.

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#59 Edited by Trapezoid (171 posts) - - Show Bio

I would enjoy the movie more if Killmonger wasn’t so one dimensional, I also think Michael B Jordan is an overused black actor. Lastly, what gives me a sour taste in my mouth was the awful cgi battle between black panther and killmonger, if they would of done better it could of been more immersive. A good cgi fight in comparison was in Avengers Infinty War with literally everything Thanos was shot in.

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#60 Edited by chicago_bastard (207 posts) - - Show Bio

@theamazingspidey:

I think you really bring up good points and your OP is definitely the best defense that I've read so far for BP's nomination. That said, I'm still not convinced.

Cultural significance can be a factor, but only if the quality of the film lives up to the standards and this is where we disagree, cause for me BP is just bang average. Its by-the-numbers-plot has been done hundred times before, neither acting, directing or cinematography are anything special (which even the academy admits by ignoring BP in all important categories except best picture).

Cinematic quality should always be the most important factor. If cultural significance and cinematic quality coalesce like for example in "BlacKkKlansman", then the nomination is absolutely deserved. But mediocre movies shouldn't be awarded just because they have a message. Studios are already bringing out too many of the same blockbusters, now they could feel encouraged to think that they don't have to make quality movies to get award recognition but can make more of their unambitious blockbusters instead and just throw as much money in award campaigns for them as Disney did for BP. This would lead to a decrease of quality movies in the future (as if Disney buying Fox and thereby Fox Searchlight - one of the few studios that is bringing out quality movies regularly - isn't enough bad news for cinephiles...).

Back to the point of cultural significance: By that logic, why didn't "Crazy Rich" get a nomination? First US movie with an all Asian cast and it was a big success with critics and audiences. So that film is not of cultural significance but BP is? Asian Americans (and Hispanics btw) are much more underrepresented at the Academy Awards than African Americans, seems like they just don't have a lobby that is as loud and creates stupid hashtags for their uproar...

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#61 Edited by The_Hajduk (6198 posts) - - Show Bio

@theamazingspidey: I don’t comment much but your blogs are really insightful. You’re probably the best user on comic vine right now.

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#62 Posted by EmmaFrostXmen (1651 posts) - - Show Bio

Extremely well said, excellent post

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#63 Posted by MarvelandDCfan24 (7316 posts) - - Show Bio

The Oscars are a joke The Shape of Water was one of the worst movies I've seen tbh I didnt think Black Panther was that good of a movie either because of the main character hes very emotionless and boring I wish MBJ wouldve been cast as BP as he gave way more emotion and character to Killmonger while Boseman was just boring the best character was gone for like a whole hour and 15 minutes plus the CGI was one of the worst Ive seen since green lantern Black Panthers an overhyped overrated movie

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#64 Posted by MICKEY-MOUSE (36711 posts) - - Show Bio

@theamazingspidey:

“2004, the movie Crash, a movie most would consider an "Explain Like I'm 5" version of racial harmony,”

U see that line right there, that’s y u my man!!! Right there. I hated that movie.

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#65 Posted by StormShadow_X (16680 posts) - - Show Bio

I honestly feel they are nominating it knowing damn well they won't let it win or else people will take the Oscars as a joke.

I don't hate it being nominated (Despite believing it shouldn't) my issue is that it's not a real nomination, doesn't match up with what the Oscars have been doing for the last 20 years. It's just their to take space and please the community that believe the movie is one of the greats. It's a waste of the slot and an insult to the Oscars and the movie itself

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#66 Posted by TheParadox (844 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah, but what "impact" did it have? Nothing changed with our society.

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#67 Posted by Kevd4wg (12708 posts) - - Show Bio

You know, i was pretty strongly against it but thats a really solid argument. Even if it didnt flip my view, it certainly changed my perspective

Though I still think Creed and Logan both deserved nominations over it

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#68 Edited by buttersdaman000 (22732 posts) - - Show Bio

If cultural significance is all it takes, then studios should just pour their resources into making extremely popular films featuring all asian/mexican/indian cast. The movie doesn't even have to be particularly Oscar worthy, just culturally significant. Imagine if Crazy Rich Asians was more popular??? It would've been nominated too lol

I hate saying this, but to me, BP being nominated on the basis of it's cultural significance is just a nicer way of saying we're just gonna give this really popular black people movie an oscar nod because it's really important to "them", and "they need this". Like imagine working really hard to get a job then your boss legit comes up and tell you you only got your raise because you're black and popular :/ feels good man lol

If BP was a better movie then I wouldn't have a problem with it's cultural significance playing a part in it's nomination, but it isn't. Quality wise it doesn't deserve to even sniff the Oscars.

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#69 Edited by Jgames (8144 posts) - - Show Bio

I mean is a better nomination than Bohemian Rhapsody. I mean seriously people, not all best Picture nominee movies are amazing. There been some movie in the past that did not deserve to be nominated. The only difference is that this a movie people actually saw.

Also most people, believe it or not really like BP. Opinion is fine, but do not act like everybody thinks the movie is average. Its only overrated because people rate it highly. The Dark Knight is consider overrated, does not stop people from complaining how it was snub in the Oscars. I thought Shape of Water was overrated, does not stop me from seeing why other people enjoy it or why its so praised.

I mean in the end of the day its just a bunch of old white snob who went to film school picking what they thought was the best movie of that year. Of course their opinion will differ from ours. Or maybe the Oscar should start looking into viners thought on who should get nominated XD.

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#70 Posted by SC (18141 posts) - - Show Bio

Great thread/blog theamazingspidey. If I could recommend this as an article to be featured I would.

I like how you give us background context on the Academy as well as art and framing. If we look at Best Picture Nominations, throughout its history, how many of those movies would have been labelled "SJW" or "PC" propaganda, by people, if Internet existed at the time. I don't watch or personally care for the Academy Awards, and neither did a lot of people, but now... I mean how many people have watched every single nomination, and think that Black Panther is the film that sets the standard as far as lowest quality/least deserving movie or movie thats "only here" because politics.

I get finding the movie overrated etc sure. Still won't watch the Awards or care about winners personally still.

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#71 Edited by ITouchedTheBoat (3390 posts) - - Show Bio

tbh I think it's because the Oscars are trying to provide proof that they aren't racist. Just another "I can't be racist! I love stuff with Black People in it!" move.

It's a great film and it reached parts of me that many other CBMs couldn't possibly reach. I could literally write an essay on the subject, but the fact of the matter is; it isn't Oscar level.

if The Dark Knight wasn't neither should Black Panther

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#72 Edited by buildhare (8649 posts) - - Show Bio

Not even the best CBM of the year, let alone ever

First nominated for best picture

MFW

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#73 Posted by SC (18141 posts) - - Show Bio

if The Dark Knight wasn't neither should Black Panther

Perhaps think about it this way? Should we never ever have a CBM nominated for an Oscar just because The Dark Knight was snubbed?

Even if its not the intention, because I am no telepath, I couldn't tell, and especially considering there are ten nominations now, instead of five, perhaps we could look at the Academy changing its attitude around CBM, which is a good thing right? What if in 10 years there is this amazing revolutionary movie, high quality etc thats also a CBM... there are going to be people who think The Dark Knight is still better. Then that the Dark Knight didn't get nominated... so the new amazing CBM shouldn't either?

Also this tends to happen with some individual awards as well, like some actors getting it seemingly because of their body of work and that they haven't won anything yet, or past snubs, etc

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#74 Posted by buildhare (8649 posts) - - Show Bio
@sc said:
@itouchedtheboat said:

if The Dark Knight wasn't neither should Black Panther

Perhaps think about it this way? Should we never ever have a CBM nominated for an Oscar just because The Dark Knight was snubbed?

Even if its not the intention, because I am no telepath, I couldn't tell, and especially considering there are ten nominations now, instead of five, perhaps we could look at the Academy changing its attitude around CBM, which is a good thing right? What if in 10 years there is this amazing revolutionary movie, high quality etc thats also a CBM... there are going to be people who think The Dark Knight is still better. Then that the Dark Knight didn't get nominated... so the new amazing CBM shouldn't either?

Also this tends to happen with some individual awards as well, like some actors getting it seemingly because of their body of work and that they haven't won anything yet, or past snubs, etc

Logan came out less than two years ago and was snubbed nearly as hard, they have very clearly not changed there attitude on CBM's.

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#75 Posted by SC (18141 posts) - - Show Bio

@buildhare: Good point. Maybe thats another movie that was a part of the tipping point, or maybe it wasn't again, I don't know. When I was looking back on Best Picture Nominations and winners, I found lots of examples of movies I would consider snubbed, and then, I'd see a movie that was similar in theme or tone or setting, a few years later, I thought was inferior, that was nominated. I'd try and take into account the other nominations for each, like if it was a strong or weak year and reflect on my own movie preferences and how they might align with those who make such decisions... again, since I don't really care about such Awards so, I end up shrugging.

I am not sure what value there is though, in looking at a movie that was snubbed, and then not wanting future movies that may share similarities, to not be given a chance. Seems like holding a grudge that would ultimately cause more irritation to say CBM's than the Academy for snubbing a few.

Like I learned of a few criticisms and controversies the Awards have faced, over lack of non-English language movies to be considered, also animation, sci fi, fantasy, horror. If in the future, the Academy started to be more inclusive and such genres, movie types produced quality movies and they were nominated? Is that a good thing, or a bad thing? Like should we think - "about time..." or should we think "actually, don't, because back in 2021, Freddy vs. Jason III was a complete cinematic masterpiece that shall never be surpassed in quality or achievement, so don't start throwing nominations for horror movies at us Academy... you had your chance, and you blew it! You blew it to hell!!" and again, I personally don't care. My top ten movies... well actually a few have been nominated and some have won, I think, Braveheart, but I don't really care. Also none of my business if people do want to hold a grudge against the Academy, just wondering if its worth it as far as past snubs VS future exclusions/inclusions.

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#76 Posted by buildhare (8649 posts) - - Show Bio

@sc:

I am not sure what value there is though, in looking at a movie that was snubbed, and then not wanting future movies that may share similarities, to not be given a chance. Seems like holding a grudge that would ultimately cause more irritation to say CBM's than the Academy for snubbing a few.

If it's part of a gradual change I could buy it. If they started to acknowledge a different kind of movie for it's quality, I'd understand, TDK and Logan being snubbed wouldn't matter so much. But this isn't part of a gradual shift with how these types of movies are viewed, it exists solely as a knee jerk reaction to stuff like #oscarssowhite.

If this is part of a larger change, great. But I don't think anyone seriously believes that.

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#77 Posted by SC (18141 posts) - - Show Bio

@sc:

I am not sure what value there is though, in looking at a movie that was snubbed, and then not wanting future movies that may share similarities, to not be given a chance. Seems like holding a grudge that would ultimately cause more irritation to say CBM's than the Academy for snubbing a few.

If it's part of a gradual change I could buy it. If they started to acknowledge a different kind of movie for it's quality, I'd understand, TDK and Logan being snubbed wouldn't matter so much. But this isn't part of a gradual shift with how these types of movies are viewed, it exists solely as a knee jerk reaction to stuff like #oscarssowhite.

If this is part of a larger change, great. But I don't think anyone seriously believes that.

Cool cool. I get that skepticism. I also doubt that people would be of a singular mind of when and where the change is now okay after not being okay. Like I am apathetic to the issue, and generally skeptical of the Academy, but its not a newfound skepticism. I haven't really considered their Awards that objectively significant prior to TDK, Logan, or now, post Black Panther. Have past movies, whether its depicting mental health in a more sympathetic manner, or depicting/portraying ethnic or cultural minorities or minority culture in a obviously positive manner, were all those organic developments? Again, maybe, maybe not, I am not a film historian or film buff, I couldn't tell you. I do remember news articles and media pieces about various people/groups who have criticized various movies for pushing an agenda in the past, sometimes it seems valid, other times it doesn't.

If Black Panther's nomination is a forced knee jerk reaction, to the extent its nomination is completely devoid of merit, I would be surprised if this was the first time, and that prior to this, the Academy was filled to the brim with upstanding members diligently safeguarding the illustrious prestige of their awards based purely on artistic merit. I also know, that hypothetically (and this is not something I believe) but hypothetically, Black Panther got here, purely for organic, artist merits, and was representative of a gradual change... some people wouldn't see it as such, they would also just have a knee jerk reaction and ill viewed no matter what. Ditto various other past movies, for similar reasons.

Where the different lines exist, will be different for different people. I view this as opening the door for more CBM's in the future, if they are of comparable quality/cultural relevance. I am not really invested either way, but for those that are? What now? Join me in apathy? Are the Academy going to withdraw their nomination? Are we going to stake out future CBM's and get ready to campaign against them getting a nomination until the process feels more organic and earned by the collective whims of the masses? Can we crowd fund Freddy vs. Jason III to finally get that horror nomination for Best Picture? Only Zoltar knows!

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#78 Posted by MrTrey (301 posts) - - Show Bio

If I were forced to erase every single blockbuster but one, I'd choose Black Panther, because little black kids lead utterly fucked lives and they're starving for representation and escapism, and there are thousands of other avenues to get heroic inspiration for white kids who wouldn't have Star Wars or whatever. This film might be the best one at indirectly saving lives, and for that I'll always defend it.

It shouldn't win best picture though. The story is about a super-advanced nation somehow still being ruled by a monarchy with a dumb fight deciding who gets to rule, which might have lead to millions or even billions of people dying because some random kind of sympathetic but also psycho nephew of the last king is somehow able to waltz in and start bossing people around due to dumb laws that should have been ignored (like really, Okoye should have shoved her spear in Killmonger with all the nonsense he was spewing before he threw T'Challa over the waterfall).

Yeah, just, it was pretty dumb, so are nearly all blockbusters admittedly, but wow, best picture it sure ain't. Neither are Green Book are or Bohemian Rhapsody, which are both much worse (also Crash was shit), but there were definitely better films than these 3 last year.

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#79 Posted by TheAmazingSpidey (17571 posts) - - Show Bio

@deltahuman:

Screw nominations, What if BP ends up winning Best Picture. It might happen given how ridiculous some past Best Picture winners were. It will open a Pandora Box of problems wherein mediocre movies will start their Oscar campaigns just because they are politically motivated/supported or they represent a certain culture or community.

You're right. You're entitled to your opinion and I'm glad you're sharing it :) But as entitled as we are to our own opinion, we also need to recognise when our personal opinion is representative of the general consensus, and when it isn't.

Black Panther getting nominated, to you, might seem like "oh any mediocre movie can be nominated", and that's perfectly fine, but most people don't see it that way. Black Panther scored a 97% on Rotten Tomatoes, with an 8.2 average rating (the highest of any MCU film) and was praised for it's worldbuilding, exploration of real-world themes, it's multilayered villain, and soundtrack, and was beloved by audiences. The "movie studios will learn that you can make a mediocre movie and still win" narrative doesn't work here because most people didn't think Black Panther was mediocre.

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#80 Posted by StormShadow_X (16680 posts) - - Show Bio

@sc: You're making good points but I honestly don't think BP is paving the role for any CBM. It's a false nominee that's honestly taking space and the Oscars won't let it actually win or the older fans will take it as a joke, same with the actors and honestly same with those of us who know there have been far better comic book movies.

If this was a movie getting nominated a on its merit as a film and it's quality I could honestly see it being change but it's not. It's the most popular movie of the year concerning the African American fanbase which isn't even in the same vain of quality as the usually winners and contenders. This film being here is a joke and spitting in the face of movies that did have a chance and those who worked on BP as they're film is being used as a shield so to speak against future critics of the Oscars.

After BP loses which it will I promise we won't be seeing another superhero movie regardless of quality there in the spot. Hell the Upcoming Joker film seems to be the closest thing that the Oscars look for and just for it being based on a comic property despite Batman most likely not appearing it will probably get snubbed ( if it's great)

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#81 Edited by TheAmazingSpidey (17571 posts) - - Show Bio

@black_wreath said:

I don’t buy into an Oscar’s value but countless do so I ask with a huge budget, inevitable box office success, fully backed studio support and marketing + media coverage x 10 what does BP actually gain here that it didn’t already have? It’s not an underdog, blockbuster movies are not underdogs, they are the John Cena of movie genres. Those indie artsy films that usually get focused on by the Academy - they depend a lot more on these kinds of awards to get a look from the public so sorry I am not trying to discredit any of the wonderfully compelling arguments surmised here but I, personally, just see it as kind of a waste of a nomination.

Thanks for the comment! Hope you don't mind if I become a pain in the ass by sharing my personal thoughts:

  • I feel you're understating the impact that Black Panther getting a nomination/a potential win has. This is bigger than one big-budget movie. This is bigger than comic book movies. For a lot of people, the impact of Black Panther's success shows movie studios and figureheads how viable big-budget movies led by people of colour are, and this is only furthered by the nomination and potential win.
  • Isn't "nominating other movies because they have more to benefit" just as much of an agenda?
  • How much are those low-mid budget movies depending on Academy Award either? How much do they stand to gain? What exactly did The Shape of Water gain by winning best picture? What did Spotlight gain by winning? Whatever your response to either, Black Panther has just as much, if not more to gain, in terms of what it means for representation. Blockbuster movies might be the John Cena of movie genres, but blockbuster movies led by all black casts definitely aren't. If this were Infinity War being nominated I've agree lol but the success of this particular movie is a more distinct case.
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#82 Posted by TheAmazingSpidey (17571 posts) - - Show Bio

@chicago_bastard:

But mediocre movies shouldn't be awarded just because they have a message. Studios are already bringing out too many of the same blockbusters, now they could feel encouraged to think that they don't have to make quality movies to get award recognition but can make more of their unambitious blockbusters instead and just throw as much money in award campaigns for them as Disney did for BP. This would lead to a decrease of quality movies in the future

Here's why I take issue with this argument. If you thought Black Panther was mediocre, that's perfectly fine! But the truth is, it has a 97% on Rotten Tomatoes, a 8.2 average score, and was praised for it's worldbuilding, soundtrack, costume and set design, it's exploration of real world themes, it's multidimensional villain, and strong cast. Any figurehead who thinks "hey, this mediocre movie got nominated for an Oscar! Maybe we can too!" Will be a gigantic airhead, because Black Panther was praised as being great in several facets.

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#83 Posted by TheAmazingSpidey (17571 posts) - - Show Bio

@theamazingspidey: I don’t comment much but your blogs are really insightful. You’re probably the best user on comic vine right now.

Thank you so much!

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#84 Posted by SC (18141 posts) - - Show Bio

@stormshadow_x: Thank you. Also thats fair, I can see that. That Black Panther isn't doing any favors for CBM's, and I agree with the rest of your first paragraph... except for the idea that its so clear cut. Black Panther like many movies, whether they have been nominated, or won awards or haven't, rarely have a universally agreed upon status. Even movies, which say, lead in ticket sales, don't represent all people who could have brought tickets. Its also why you have people like me, that are apathetic to the Academy Awards, I already find them a joke (not in a mean malicious way, just don't take them seriously), and almost always have, so additional elements won't change that.

Let me see... I haven't actually seen any of the other movies nominated this year, or those that could of. Some people have mentioned Infinity War?!? Which I enjoyed more than Black Panther, but could see it being a nominee and also not being a nominee, you know, in my opinion. I don't view it as tight a stand alone movie, or as culturally or politically interesting, which seems to be important to the Academy. I mean, we have various jokes and memes about how to get into the graces of the Academy, they love period pieces, and pretty actors getting ugly, and usually that has sociopolitical overtones as well. Anyway, I can't really speak of what got cheated here. The movies, comics, video games I like, like at least half of them never get awards, because they are so niche. Merit in art, while it can have objective components also have a lot of subjective components, I find most mainstream awards, tend to have an element of popularity involved.

Didn't see any of the other movies nominated last year either... I'm going to look for a year I saw a lot of the movies that were nominated... 2003! Topical! Lord of the Rings The Return of the King won, I believe it was the first fantasy genre movie to do so too, I liked Lost in Translation. I think I saw Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World but I can't remember it. I have no idea if this year was controversial or not, or whether Lord of the Rings was made the winner off the back of the two prior LotR movies nominations, or whether it was to award the first fantasy winner, or whether people thought another movie deserved it more. I'm okay with it being nominated and winning, I would be okay with not being nominated and not winning. I just don't think some of the arguments being made towards Black Panther are exclusive or new. Whether more valid or fair here, they can be applied to so many movies within Academy Awards history.

That could be true. Next fantasy nominee that won after Lord of the Rings, was The Shape of Water more than a decade later.

What's your personal take on how many movies should be allowed to be nominated? Do you prefer small groups of say 5 or larger groups, like up to ten?

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#85 Posted by buttersdaman000 (22732 posts) - - Show Bio

@deltahuman:

Screw nominations, What if BP ends up winning Best Picture. It might happen given how ridiculous some past Best Picture winners were. It will open a Pandora Box of problems wherein mediocre movies will start their Oscar campaigns just because they are politically motivated/supported or they represent a certain culture or community.

You're right. You're entitled to your opinion and I'm glad you're sharing it :) But as entitled as we are to our own opinion, we also need to recognise when our personal opinion is representative of the general consensus, and when it isn't.

Black Panther getting nominated, to you, might seem like "oh any mediocre movie can be nominated", and that's perfectly fine, but most people don't see it that way. Black Panther scored a 97% on Rotten Tomatoes, with an 8.2 average rating (the highest of any MCU film) and was praised for it's worldbuilding, exploration of real-world themes, it's multilayered villain, and soundtrack, and was beloved by audiences. The "movie studios will learn that you can make a mediocre movie and still win" narrative doesn't work here because most people didn't think Black Panther was mediocre.

This would hold more weight if it wasn't an MCU movie, to be perfectly fair. I don't want to bring up any conspiracy theories, but at face value, when movies like GoTG 2, Ant-Man 2, and Thor 2 still get great/fresh reviews for some reason, it kind of diminishes the review argument for the entire catalog.

Also, it shouldn't matter what people think anyways; all that should matter are the academy standards. I mean, people "think" a lot of non-oscar worthy movies should be nominated, yet they never are.....

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#86 Posted by TheAmazingSpidey (17571 posts) - - Show Bio

@theamazingspidey said:

@deltahuman:

Screw nominations, What if BP ends up winning Best Picture. It might happen given how ridiculous some past Best Picture winners were. It will open a Pandora Box of problems wherein mediocre movies will start their Oscar campaigns just because they are politically motivated/supported or they represent a certain culture or community.

You're right. You're entitled to your opinion and I'm glad you're sharing it :) But as entitled as we are to our own opinion, we also need to recognise when our personal opinion is representative of the general consensus, and when it isn't.

Black Panther getting nominated, to you, might seem like "oh any mediocre movie can be nominated", and that's perfectly fine, but most people don't see it that way. Black Panther scored a 97% on Rotten Tomatoes, with an 8.2 average rating (the highest of any MCU film) and was praised for it's worldbuilding, exploration of real-world themes, it's multilayered villain, and soundtrack, and was beloved by audiences. The "movie studios will learn that you can make a mediocre movie and still win" narrative doesn't work here because most people didn't think Black Panther was mediocre.

This would hold more weight if it wasn't an MCU movie, to be perfectly fair. I don't want to bring up any conspiracy theories, but at face value, when movies like GoTG 2, Ant-Man 2, and Thor 2 still get great/fresh reviews for some reason, it kind of diminishes the review argument for the entire catalog.

Also, it shouldn't matter what people think anyways; all that should matter are the academy standards. I mean, people "think" a lot of non-oscar worthy movies should be nominated, yet they never are.....

I agree with you that GoTG Vol. 2 is trash, but I'm not interested in discussing conspiracy theories, bias or whatever. The point is the "other studios will see that you can produce mediocre movies and win oscars" doesn't work because other studios will also see that BP was one of the best reviewed movies of the year.

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#87 Edited by buttersdaman000 (22732 posts) - - Show Bio

@theamazingspidey said:
@buttersdaman000 said:
@theamazingspidey said:

@deltahuman:

Screw nominations, What if BP ends up winning Best Picture. It might happen given how ridiculous some past Best Picture winners were. It will open a Pandora Box of problems wherein mediocre movies will start their Oscar campaigns just because they are politically motivated/supported or they represent a certain culture or community.

You're right. You're entitled to your opinion and I'm glad you're sharing it :) But as entitled as we are to our own opinion, we also need to recognise when our personal opinion is representative of the general consensus, and when it isn't.

Black Panther getting nominated, to you, might seem like "oh any mediocre movie can be nominated", and that's perfectly fine, but most people don't see it that way. Black Panther scored a 97% on Rotten Tomatoes, with an 8.2 average rating (the highest of any MCU film) and was praised for it's worldbuilding, exploration of real-world themes, it's multilayered villain, and soundtrack, and was beloved by audiences. The "movie studios will learn that you can make a mediocre movie and still win" narrative doesn't work here because most people didn't think Black Panther was mediocre.

This would hold more weight if it wasn't an MCU movie, to be perfectly fair. I don't want to bring up any conspiracy theories, but at face value, when movies like GoTG 2, Ant-Man 2, and Thor 2 still get great/fresh reviews for some reason, it kind of diminishes the review argument for the entire catalog.

Also, it shouldn't matter what people think anyways; all that should matter are the academy standards. I mean, people "think" a lot of non-oscar worthy movies should be nominated, yet they never are.....

I agree with you that GoTG Vol. 2 is trash, but I'm not interested in discussing conspiracy theories, bias or whatever. The point is the "other studios will see that you can produce mediocre movies and win oscars" doesn't work because other studios will also see that BP was one of the best reviewed movies of the year.

Exactly, you don't need to be an oscar worthy movie, or even particularly good, to get rave reviews, just like you don't need to have good reviews to be nominated either. Star Wars 9 got even better reviews than BP, yet isn't a good movie at all. Should it have had a shot at nomination??

BP is only being nominated for it's cultural popularity, and I just think that sucks for reasons I already explained.

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#88 Posted by TheAmazingSpidey (17571 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000:

Star Wars 9 got even better reviews than BP

Oh, you've seen it already? Is Kylo redeemed?

Joking xx

In all seriousness, I agree it is being nominated for political reasons. Only a fool would deny that. Disagree with the argument that it will encourage more people to make mediocre movies, though.

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#89 Posted by buttersdaman000 (22732 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000:

Star Wars 9 got even better reviews than BP

Oh, you've seen it already? Is Kylo redeemed?

Joking xx

In all seriousness, I agree it is being nominated for political reasons. Only a fool would deny that. Disagree with the argument that it will encourage more people to make mediocre movies, though.

I meant 8 lol my bad

I'm not saying it will encourage people to try to make mediocre movies, i'm just saying it sets a bad precedent. And I don't agree at all that it's political nomination is something to encourage or justify.

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#90 Edited by TheAmazingSpidey (17571 posts) - - Show Bio

@theamazingspidey said:

@buttersdaman000:

Star Wars 9 got even better reviews than BP

Oh, you've seen it already? Is Kylo redeemed?

Joking xx

In all seriousness, I agree it is being nominated for political reasons. Only a fool would deny that. Disagree with the argument that it will encourage more people to make mediocre movies, though.

I meant 8 lol my bad

I'm not saying it will encourage people to try to make mediocre movies, i'm just saying it sets a bad precedent. And I don't agree at all that it's political nomination is something to encourage or justify.

Well, I respect your opinion.

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#91 Edited by deltahuman (4969 posts) - - Show Bio

@theamazingspidey:

Whatever you and I discussed or argued, (Had a great time talking to you BTW, Your post in the OP was great even If I have contrasting opinions) simply and finally boils down to one thing and one thing only and that is - You feel BP is a very well made movie but I don't and so I don't think I can convince you that BP wasn't a great choice as a nominee for Best Picture and trying to do that looks and feels trivial on my part now.

If you really think that BP deserves the 97% RT rating or the general rave reviews it got then good for you. I have nothing else to say. But I simply think there have been better MCU movies (or better CBMs in general), much more enjoyable ones and better made than BP, which have received lower ratings or been snubbed at award ceremonies and so I think there was some level (read a lot of) favoritism or preferential treatment towards BP. I can give you instances in very recent history if you like. Aquaman for instance had much better and much higher quality cinematography (and VFX in general) than BP. It's under water CGI was great and the team had to device entirely new techniques to shoot and capture the motions of swimming and convert them to the finished product and yet it was snubbed at the Oscars this time. BP was nominated in that department despite having laughable CGI in many scenes. Speaking of cultural significance or highlighting a particular community or gender, I think Wonder Woman is as path breaking as BP in that department and also a better made and much more inspiring and enjoyable movie and yet it was rated lower than BP and ultimately snubbed at the Oscars. Logan, a very very well made movie by CBM standards and almost univocally agreed to be one of the best CBMs, had a lower rating than BP and wasn't even considered for nomination and this was just a year ago. Therefore there is considerable evidence of the favoritism and preferential treatment towards BP.

Personally I also don't like these conspiracy theories that there's partiality towards a certain studio but the statistics speak a different story. Some very campy, formulaic/generic and average to bad movies made by Marvel Studios have still recieved Fresh ratings from RT or other critics and so something does look and sound fishy here. GoTG2, Ant Man and it's sequel, Thor Ragnarok etc aren't path breaking movies by any means and yet have received favourable to high ratings, sometimes even more than some groundbreaking non CBMs just because they have the name tag of Marvel Studios slapped on them. Like I said, I don't wanna call it as conspiracy but something really doesn't add up.

Nonetheless, for me, BP is just an average to good movie without having anything revolutionary, radical or a trailblazing element to it (except may be the very positive representation of the cultural/racial side). Maybe a nomination only in categories like make up/costume/soundtrack etc wouldn't have stirred up the hornet's nest as much as it has but this best picture nomination isn't something that I personally liked and I can clearly and affirmatively see why many others also haven't.

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#92 Posted by silkyballfro94 (8674 posts) - - Show Bio

Don't care for the Oscars and they're a joke. So whatever. However, if I was someone who made a film that was better than BP, I probably wouldn't be happy that this movie was nominated for political reasons and pandering alone. The fact that people know this is why it was nominated and not for it's actual quality or content, yet still parade this nomination as some sort of achievement says something.

This movie was good and enjoyable. 8/10 for a cbm. I didn't think the movie itself was very political. I guess the success of the movie says more than the movie itself said to people. So of course it needs to be best picture for them.

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#93 Posted by chicago_bastard (207 posts) - - Show Bio


  • How much are those low-mid budget movies depending on Academy Award either? How much do they stand to gain? What exactly did The Shape of Water gain by winning best picture? What did Spotlight gain by winning? Whatever your response to either, Black Panther has just as much, if not more to gain, in terms of what it means for representation. Blockbuster movies might be the John Cena of movie genres, but blockbuster movies led by all black casts definitely aren't. If this were Infinity War being nominated I've agree lol but the success of this particular movie is a more distinct case.

They depend very much on Oscar nominations because that's how these films get audiences they would never reach without having that Oscar buzz. "Moonlight" for example is a movie that wouldn't have generated over 50 million USD without its nomination/win. Many people just go to see a movie because it's nominated for an Oscar. I live in europe and it's pretty clear that a movie like "Moonlight" wouldn't even get a theatrical release in some countries here (UK and maybe the cinema-loving France aside), only its Oscar nomination/win led to a wide release here. BP on the other side doesn't need Oscar buzz to raise its profit.

It's pretty clear that "If Beale Street could talk", the new movie of "Moonlight"-director Barry Jenkins, won't do as well at the box office as "Moonlight" cause it didn't get nominations in important categories. And that's the irony, maybe "Beale Street" is exactly the film that was snubbed of a nomination by BP. So by trying to acknowledge black cinema the academy actually hurt the prospects of truly sophisticated black cinema. In the future it could become more difficult for a filmmaker like Jenkins to get his projects financed if his latest work didn't make enough profit. And thus quality movies are in danger when unambitious blockbusters like BP take nominations away from them.

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#94 Posted by chicago_bastard (207 posts) - - Show Bio

@chicago_bastard:

But mediocre movies shouldn't be awarded just because they have a message. Studios are already bringing out too many of the same blockbusters, now they could feel encouraged to think that they don't have to make quality movies to get award recognition but can make more of their unambitious blockbusters instead and just throw as much money in award campaigns for them as Disney did for BP. This would lead to a decrease of quality movies in the future

Here's why I take issue with this argument. If you thought Black Panther was mediocre, that's perfectly fine! But the truth is, it has a 97% on Rotten Tomatoes, a 8.2 average score, and was praised for it's worldbuilding, soundtrack, costume and set design, it's exploration of real world themes, it's multidimensional villain, and strong cast. Any figurehead who thinks "hey, this mediocre movie got nominated for an Oscar! Maybe we can too!" Will be a gigantic airhead, because Black Panther was praised as being great in several facets.

Of course no one will say "Hey, let's make a mediocre movie", they'll think that they are making a good movie as the makers of BP thought they did. But what they could say is: "Why should we give someone like Damien Chazelle, Paul Thomas Anderson or other great filmmakers budgets for their movies that might bring us award recognition but are potential flops at the box office if we can just make a formulaic blockbuster which brings us tons of money and on top of that might even bring us an Oscar nomination?"

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#95 Posted by Asgaard (4378 posts) - - Show Bio

Is Black Panther a great comic book movie?

-Yes.

Is Black Panther in the best top 5 cbms?

-I don't think so.

- Is there a well defined standard for Oscar nominations?

- NO.

Should Black Panther get an Oscar nomination for best picture?

- Yes and no... Standards?

Are there other comic book movies that could represent better the genre at award ceremonies?

-YES.

Is Black Panther nomination for best picture still an amazing achievement for the genre?

YES.

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#96 Posted by Subline (7743 posts) - - Show Bio

TL;DR

Here's my thoughts on the movie:

It wasn't anything special in my opinion, it's hugely overrated. It felt repetitive and didn't introduce much new concepts. It was very similar to Thor Ragnarok, with the villain being a close relative, and the villain is created due to the father's mistakes, and the main character goes to talk to the father for advice etc. Only difference was, there was no humor, nothing original that made it worth watching. Although one may argue a film like Aquaman was quite similar too, and although I wasn't a huge fan, when we saw Atlantis it felt alive, when we saw Wakanda, there was nothing special. Anyway, that's just my opinion, I'm not saying this is how you should view the movie, it's just my interpretation.

Thanks for reading!

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#97 Posted by KanyeCosby (7050 posts) - - Show Bio

I don’t have a problem with Black Panther getting nominated. My problem is when superhero movies that are better than Black Panther get completely snubbed by the Academy for no reason other than that they’re superhero movies.

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#98 Posted by ValorKnight (12345 posts) - - Show Bio
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#99 Posted by Thorthunder98 (6673 posts) - - Show Bio

@asgaard said:

Is Black Panther a great comic book movie?

-Yes.

Is Black Panther in the best top 5 cbms?

-I don't think so.

- Is there a well defined standard for Oscar nominations?

- NO.

Should Black Panther get an Oscar nomination for best picture?

- Yes and no... Standards?

Are there other comic book movies that could represent better the genre at award ceremonies?

-YES.

Is Black Panther nomination for best picture still an amazing achievement for the genre?

YES.

Basically this

I think Black Panther is better than a lot of other best picture nominees that have been nominated in the past, so it being nominated is neither deserved nor undeserved.

The problem is it came out the same year as Infinity War which if we're talking about superhero movies always being snubbed in the oscars that film should've been the film to finally be nominated it was objectively a much better film.

I agree about Black Panther's cultural impact but Infinity War also had an impact on the movie industry as a whole too.

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#100 Posted by Defiant_Will (1127 posts) - - Show Bio

Black Panther most definitely deserves a best picture nomination from a writing standpoint alone. Even beyond its cultural impact, it is just a hell of a good film.