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Posted by SaintWildcard (21844 posts) - - Show Bio
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As we grow ever closer to the release of a movie a decades long awaited meeting of cultural icons, the question on everyone's head (and Zack Snyder's twitter account) has been "Who will win"? Call be bias, but I'm thinking that the alien space god will wipe the floor with the man in the tin suit. And I'm not just saying this because I have a man crush on Henry Cavill, or because I have a ton of money riding on this, I'm saying it because the case is stacked against the Prosecuter. Let's look at the facts

What Cav-El has been doing?

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After the events of MoS, Clark has be rumored to be running himself ragged trying to make up from what happened and finally taking on the cape full time. Not as the guardian angel he was referred to as in MoS, but as Superman. And in current interviews with Empire, he's stated that Clark has gotten more experience since MoS. On top of gaining experience he's currently in between the public that either sees him as the a savior sent from the heavens or as our impending doom. Unfortunately, living in world with a media that markets fear, he is currently the target of the US Government (and quite possibly the world). Now most of us just expect him to snap all the senators neck, right? Well not this Superman, he's learned and has gone to talk to them willingly to help ease their fears. One step closer to the symbol of hop he is meant to be.

What Batfleck is up to?

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Before the current events, what we know so far is hat he witnessed the Metropolis slug fest and has lost who we presume is Jason Todd. He's also witnessed all sorts of things and has become jaded due to certain events like former allies becoming rotten. He was also retired before MoS. According to interviews with producers, Batman has gotten a lot tougher on crime after his return, almost acting as Judge, Jury and Executioner. As for his view on Superman, well as we saw in his chat with Alfred, it's not good. His years of crime fighting have left him jaded and entrusting..... well, more so than usual in the comics. He knows in his mind that if there is even the slightest chance that Clark will turn against us, that he must take him down while possible. I'm sure that certain events like Lex meddling and Clark's forcing him to stop will only fuel his motives more.

How do things stack up?

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So lets see? Clark is trying his best to do good and help people, and then Bruce comes around wanting to kick his ass because he doesn't trust him? If that doesn't make Bruce sound like an underdog we should root for, I don't know what does. Point is, Bruce has absolutely no reason to win this fight. Bruce might be the weaker of the two, but he has none of the qualities one would associate with an underdog. One of my favorite lines was in the very first tease in which one of debating voices summed up Superman as "A guy trying to do the right thing". His only flaw that we've seen so far is trying to make Batman stop, but unlike in Batman:The Animated Series where he also had a problem with Batman's methods, here it seems like his reaction is more justified and less hypocritical. While many say Clark needs to learn a lesson of humility, I think it's arguable that Bruce needs to learn one way more. Clark just needs to accept Bruce's methods even though he'll never truly be okay with them. Bruce on the other hand has to start trusting and seeing that there is still good in the world and start to break down the walls of grime that he' built around him after decades of cleaning up the streets. Clark just has to accept Bruce's quirk, Bruce needs to learn to love again, and I say that's way more important.

But What About The TDKR Line?

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Okay so lets clear this up. Snyder found it fitting to quote The Dark Knight Returns when announcing this movie. After that, people jumped to the logical conclusion that it was going to be a very close adaptation to the book as tends to be Snyder's style. Even back then I knew that couldn't be the case. This movie takes place before they become friends and form the Justice League, but TDKR takes place in the future where the JL has already disbanded. In BvS, they have to be written to become the JL. An other thing is that in this story Bruce was written as the underdog. Superman had become a Government Dog who was more focused on doing the Government's bidding than helping on a smaller scale anymore. Bruce hand was forced and he had to come back and help. After which Superman tried to make him stop. There was a reason for Bruce to win that fight that just doesn't exist in BvS. Heck, in this movie his views align with that of Lex flipping Luthor. If that doesn't strip you of the underdog title, I don't know what what will.

In The End

I just don't see how or why Bruce would win. He no only doesn't deserve too but it serves no purpose. Bruce's role in the Justice League isn't to be able to go toe to toe with his teammates. His role is that of detective, strategist and moneybags. So this argument that it would make him useless if he doesn't win, holds no weight. But we shall know the winner in just under a couple of months. March can't get here quick enough.

Who do you think will win? And why?

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#1 Posted by darkdetective27 (7953 posts) - - Show Bio

So how much money do you have riding on this? :p

Personally Id say neither will win and the fight is merely a gimmick to get people in and get them excited for Justice League. It will be a sort of bait and switch. There's no way WB would let Superman or Batman win.

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#2 Posted by linsanel_Doctor (8630 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm not even sure what Batman's goal is.

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#3 Posted by King_Nomarch (2115 posts) - - Show Bio

If there is anything that I've learned about the internet, is never say that Batman can and will lose a fight. Batman fanboys will try to burn you at the stake.

@linsanel_doctor: The TV spot with Bruce showed that he seems to be planning to kill Superman because he sees him as a threat to humanity and for the events of MoS.

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#4 Edited by TheNaughtyTitan (10001 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't really think the aim is for either one to best the other. It looks like they'll fight with Superman most likely having the edge, and they'll then realize the real threat is Lex/General Zoodsday.

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#5 Posted by HighAccuser (9696 posts) - - Show Bio

how can he win or how will he win? Supes seems to be holding back considerably and we don't know if Bats has kryptonite or any other tools. And once Doomsday and Zuckerberg are revealed they'll just team up anyways

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#6 Posted by SaintWildcard (21844 posts) - - Show Bio

I really shouldn't write these things when I'm about to go to sleep. I might not be as articulate as other bloggers, so I like to make up with it with my zingers and humor. THis is could have been funnier.... eh

*falls asleep*

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#7 Posted by JediXMan (42744 posts) - - Show Bio

Probably going to be a stalemate.

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#8 Posted by MysticMedivh (32250 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah.

The way I see it is:

  1. Batman and Superman fight
  2. Fight is interrupted by Doomsday
  3. Batman and Superman set aside differences and defeat the greater threat
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#10 Posted by TheAmazingSpidey (17671 posts) - - Show Bio

@saintwildcard: This is an excellently written article, but I don't quite grasp the underdog concept. It is possibly my fault, but I do not understand what you are going it in regards to the underdog angle. How does Batman being immoral and Superman being the good doing being have anything to do with which of the two has more chance of winning?

Overall, really good write up but I would like an explanation.

- TAS

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#11 Posted by MAZAHS117 (12747 posts) - - Show Bio

Even tho Supermans beatdown is coming!....It will more than likely end as somekind of stalemate, in some form or another (thank you plot :-|).

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#12 Posted by Black_Arrow (10282 posts) - - Show Bio

Well I am going to make a post to defend Batman and why from a moral standpoint he has as much as a chance to win as Superman has.

From all of the footage that we got off the movie, It seems that Superman will be the biggest hypocrite in this movie. He accuses Batman to be above the law (probably because he considers him a Judge, Jury and Executioner, which seems unlikely because Batman doesn't kill and he probably doesn't take prisioners to the cave) but on his first act as a Superhero, Superman acted above the law. He executed Zod (I am using "executed" because there was no self defense involved, he just chose to murder him), that sounds like Judge, Jury and executioner to me. In the comics, Superman has the moral standing, He has certain set of rules that he would never broke and Batman is too extreme for his morality to be completely accepted by Superman. But It's not the same case on this movie, Here Superman has proved that he would whatever it takes to protect the Planet just as Batman would do to protect Gotham. In this movie, Clark Kent wants the Daily Planet to go up against Batman, because the press has to do the "right thing" and as Perry pointed out, He doesn't get to say what the right thing is. This shows that this Superman thinks that he knows what he is doing but he is judging way too early on and He even acknowledges to Lois, that he is doubting how much good he is really doing as Superman. With this mindset Superman goes to attack Batman and threatens him to stop his work on Gotham. Superman ignores that Batman's signal is resting a top of the GCPD's building, so clearly some part of the police trusts him and that Batman has in general good intentions. Superman is making brash and quick accusations without knowing anything of the Batman.

Batman has seen at first-hand what Superman's powers can do and he knows that's way too much power for a man to have unchecked. After Superman attacks him breaking his car, He knows that he is not only a threat to the world but to his mission as Batman. This encounter with Superman confirms him, That this "hero" is way too quick to judge and way too quick to attack, showing him that he doesn't think as much of his actions as someone with that power should. Batman knows that while Superman might have the right intentions, he hasn't showed anything that proves that he deserves that kind of power and that his quick to judge mindset that is not always right, might prove the downfall of humanity. Because of those reasons Batman thinks that he has to take down Superman (Recently in a image it's been showed that the nightmare that Batman has, it's provoked by Darkseid).

I think that both of them have many things to learn and by the end of the movie they will learn those from each other.

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#13 Posted by derekvang (1519 posts) - - Show Bio

@mysticmedivh said:

Yeah.

The way I see it is:

  1. Batman and Superman fight
  2. Fight is interrupted by Doomsday
  3. Batman and Superman set aside differences and defeat the greater threat

Even though the film has yet to come out, this pretty much sums up the whole movie based on what we've seen so far.

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#14 Edited by TheExile285 (4353 posts) - - Show Bio

He's going to win with the same weapons he beats Superman with in the comics: PIS & Bias

Seriously though, hopefully it's a stalemate.

If Supes win, it's just gonna provoke more complaining about about Supes being OP. If Bats wins, people will just bash Supes for being a joke. Clark losses either way.

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#15 Posted by Manwhohaseverything (3818 posts) - - Show Bio

The purpose of Batman winning is that he's human. It's kind of like regular people have no business beating the Terminator or The Predator, or Darth Vader etc....but in the movies they always do. People like that, makes us feel we can overcome odds and all that.

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#16 Posted by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio

I know I'm basically either the Judas or the Anti Christ in the Church of Cav-El or whatever but I've forgotten the exact details of the bet Saint had going on with Human Rocket. Can someone remind me what the bet is about specifically, if it is a genuinely real one?

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#17 Posted by entropy_aegis (20871 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman will win the fight but he'll lose something else in the process. Batman HAS to win to show that Superman CAN be beaten and that's all there would be to his victory.

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#18 Edited by buttersdaman000 (22862 posts) - - Show Bio

From all of the footage that we got off the movie, It seems that Superman will be the biggest hypocrite in this movie. He accuses Batman to be above the law (probably because he considers him a Judge, Jury and Executioner, which seems unlikely because Batman doesn't kill and he probably doesn't take prisioners to the cave) but on his first act as a Superhero, Superman acted above the law. He executed Zod (I am using "executed" because there was no self defense involved, he just chose to murder him), that sounds like Judge, Jury and executioner to me. In the comics, Superman has the moral standing, He has certain set of rules that he would never broke and Batman is too extreme for his morality to be completely accepted by Superman. But It's not the same case on this movie, Here Superman has proved that he would whatever it takes to protect the Planet just as Batman would do to protect Gotham. In this movie, Clark Kent wants the Daily Planet to go up against Batman, because the press has to do the "right thing" and as Perry pointed out, He doesn't get to say what the right thing is. This shows that this Superman thinks that he knows what he is doing but he is judging way too early on and He even acknowledges to Lois, that he is doubting how much good he is really doing as Superman. With this mindset Superman goes to attack Batman and threatens him to stop his work on Gotham. Superman ignores that Batman's signal is resting a top of the GCPD's building, so clearly some part of the police trusts him and that Batman has in general good intentions. Superman is making brash and quick accusations without knowing anything of the Batman.

Just gonna step in here real quick....

FALSE

There was self defense and defense of others involved. Before Superman restrained him, Zod had just actively tried to kill him and threatened to try until he succeeded. On top of that, he was moments away from frying an innocent family. You can say Superman could've tried to block the HV or fly him away, but you opened the door for technicalities and law and not closed the one on Super Hero logic. Technically and legally, Superman was completely within his rights to kill Zod. Basically, he WAS given the right to be judge, jury, and executioner.

On the other hand, Batman is a vigilante and interferes with normal police business to exact his own brand of justice. Many of the criminals he faces are not moments away from killing another human, so he has no right to interfere. The legal thing to do in the majority of his run-ins with criminals would be to call the police, not beat them up. This is opposite of Superman who usually does not even get involved with the same types of crimes or events batman does. So, really, Cav-El is completely justified in saying Batman is acting above the law in this context.

Also, Batman outright says that he basically doesn't think Superman is a threat to the people but there is the smallest chance that he is. And, due to his paranoia, he believes this is justification to take him out. It's basically the same mindset Superman had against Zod, the difference being, of course, Zod was actually actively killing people. So, in actuality, Batman is being brash and Superman is simply trying to take down a vigilante (in mostly legal ways it seems) with a history of overly aggressive violence.

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#19 Posted by Slayz (2236 posts) - - Show Bio

You're right, it would make no sense. What would be the logic behind it?

"Yeah, Superman! I just kicked your ass! Now don't turn evil on us!"

"But I never was..."

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#20 Posted by Black_Arrow (10282 posts) - - Show Bio

Just gonna step in here real quick....

FALSE

There was self defense and defense of others involved. Before Superman restrained him, Zod had just actively tried to kill him and threatened to try until he succeeded. On top of that, he was moments away from frying an innocent family. You can say Superman could've tried to block the HV or fly him away, but you opened the door for technicalities and law and not closed the one on Super Hero logic. Technically and legally, Superman was completely within his rights to kill Zod. Basically, he WAS given the right to be judge, jury, and executioner.

On the other hand, Batman is a vigilante and interferes with normal police business to exact his own brand of justice. Many of the criminals he faces are not moments away from killing another human, so he has no right to interfere. The legal thing to do in the majority of his run-ins with criminals would be to call the police, not beat them up. This is opposite of Superman who usually does not even get involved with the same types of crimes or events batman does. So, really, Cav-El is completely justified in saying Batman is acting above the law in this context.

Also, Batman outright says that he basically doesn't think Superman is a threat to the people but there is the smallest chance that he is. And, due to his paranoia, he believes this is justification to take him out. It's basically the same mindset Superman had against Zod, the difference being, of course, Zod was actually actively killing people. So, in actuality, Batman is being brash and Superman is simply trying to take down a vigilante (in mostly legal ways it seems) with a history of overly aggressive violence.

Ok I will admit that Superman acted in the law when he killed Zod (eventhrough He had him restrained, Zod was going to kill in that moment which is what actually justifies the act from a legal standpoint). I was speaking more of a moral standpoint and I made the mistake of using the term Judge,Jury and Executioner. Because Superman with his powers could knocked Zod out but he chose to kill him (this Batman seems to have many encounters with the Joker and while legally he could have killed, he always chose not to), stopping Zod from any chance of a trial. Also Superman is the one that drove Zod into the building endangering the lives of the people inside of the building.

Now I have a few problems with some of the things you are saying.

Isn't Superman doing the samething as Batman when he is hunting him down? Hunting down Batman is a job for the police, Batman wasn't doing anything when Superman assaulted him, he was just driving his car. He is also threatening Batman, how is that not ilegal? Clark Kent is justified in saying that Batman is acting above the law but that doesn't justify to hunt down Batman and It doesn't mean that he is doing the right thing. Superman went with what it seems that Batman is doing but he isn't judging the good he is doing in Gotham. Batman is just trying to justified his counter attack on Superman but Superman attacked him first with no question asked. Batman has more than enough motives to attack Superman apart from Superman's power, The dream that he gets it's just something that furthers the conflict between the two.

Oh and Batman never said that he didn't thought that Superman wasn't a threat what he said is that in the matter what any of them believed on, that the stakes were just too high to let it pass. There is nothing "brash" about that, he is just being cautious.

There are a lot of things we don't know yet, We will have to wait and see the movie, to fully both of their motives.

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#21 Posted by buttersdaman000 (22862 posts) - - Show Bio

There are a lot of things we don't know yet, We will have to wait and see the movie, to fully both of their motives.

Now you're comparing the threat of Joker to the threat of Zod. That's a pretty blatant false equivalency. For one, we have enough reason to believe Batman can manhandle Joker in a fight with ease. He has the luxury of knowing that he can put Joker down every time he gets up. That's not the same with Superman and Zod. If you rewatch the fight you'll see Zod was in control the whole time until Superman finally overpowered him in their decent towards earth. Zod was his superior in combat in every way and nothing from their fight shows he could have just "knocked him out". Secondly, Joker doesn't present even a fraction of the danger Zod presented to earth. Zod was very clear in his plans to exterminate all life and he told Superman the only way he was gonna stop him was to kill him. Do you really think Zod would just stand trial and accept whatever punishment an inferior race (from his PoV) dished out?? C'mon....and before you mention restraints, there was no way earth had that kind of technology. Also, no, Superman did not drive Zod into any building and it doesn't even matter because Metropolis was evacuated by that time.

From what we know? No, it isn't the same thing. All we know right now is that Superman first tried to take down the bat as a reporter which is perfectly legal. Next, all we know is that he threatened him to hang up the bat mantle. A little sketchy, but not really a criminal act. And IDK if you've seen the tv spot but Batman is the one who rammed Superman with his car, causing it to spin out of control which leads to Superman ripping open the doors and threatening him to stop....as far as we know, it's Batman who starts the physical confrontations. And we know Batman is the one who is actively trying to take out Superman with force because of the threat he MIGHT be. So again, it's a false equivalency to compare the two situations.

Also, it's innocent until proven guilty not the other way around. Batman does has his motive but you're acting like his motives are legally justified whereas Superman's aren't when really Batman is in 100% ILLEGAL vigilante mode and Superman is more or less acting within the law.

Also, dreams aren't excuses to attack people.

I do agree with the bolded though

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#22 Posted by BurningMartian (884 posts) - - Show Bio

Umm.. In the latest teaser, Clark pretty much steps into Bruce's turf without provocation, rips up his ride and leaves after telling Wayne to basically telling him to hang up his cape or he's in for a whooping. If that doesn't consolidate Batman's underdog status, I dont know what will.

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#23 Posted by buttersdaman000 (22862 posts) - - Show Bio

Umm.. In the latest teaser, Clark pretty much steps into Bruce's turf without provocation, rips up his ride and leaves after telling Wayne to basically telling him to hang up his cape or he's in for a whooping. If that doesn't consolidate Batman's underdog status, I dont know what will.

Superman has every right to show up in Gotham and he only rips up his ride and threatens him AFTER Batman tries to run him down.

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#24 Edited by sesquipedalophobe (5417 posts) - - Show Bio

You guys are getting an awful lot from a few trailers.

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#25 Edited by Black_Arrow (10282 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000 said:
@black_arrow said:
There are a lot of things we don't know yet, We will have to wait and see the movie, to fully both of their motives.

Now you're comparing the threat of Joker to the threat of Zod. That's a pretty blatant false equivalency. For one, we have enough reason to believe Batman can manhandle Joker in a fight with ease. He has the luxury of knowing that he can put Joker down every time he gets up. That's not the same with Superman and Zod. If you rewatch the fight you'll see Zod was in control the whole time until Superman finally overpowered him in their decent towards earth. Zod was his superior in combat in every way and nothing from their fight shows he could have just "knocked him out". Secondly, Joker doesn't present even a fraction of the danger Zod presented to earth. Zod was very clear in his plans to exterminate all life and he told Superman the only way he was gonna stop him was to kill him. Do you really think Zod would just stand trial and accept whatever punishment an inferior race (from his PoV) dished out?? C'mon....and before you mention restraints, there was no way earth had that kind of technology. Also, no, Superman did not drive Zod into any building and it doesn't even matter because Metropolis was evacuated by that time.

From what we know? No, it isn't the same thing. All we know right now is that Superman first tried to take down the bat as a reporter which is perfectly legal. Next, all we know is that he threatened him to hang up the bat mantle. A little sketchy, but not really a criminal act. And IDK if you've seen the tv spot but Batman is the one who rammed Superman with his car, causing it to spin out of control which leads to Superman ripping open the doors and threatening him to stop....as far as we know, it's Batman who starts the physical confrontations. And we know Batman is the one who is actively trying to take out Superman with force because of the threat he MIGHT be. So again, it's a false equivalency to compare the two situations.

Also, it's innocent until proven guilty not the other way around. Batman does has his motive but you're acting like his motives are legally justified whereas Superman's aren't when really Batman is in 100% ILLEGAL vigilante mode and Superman is more or less acting within the law.

Also, dreams aren't excuses to attack people.

I do agree with the bolded though

The Joker was just an example because he usually has hostages that he threatens to kill, You could change the Joker for Bane in that scenario and it would be the same, Batman wouldn't kill them. The threat of the Joker while it may not seem as big as Zod, It's still pretty big, the Joker has got nukes on his hand in the past, He is more dangerous than any terrorist organization that we know of. The Joker nor most of Batman's enemies would never accept any judgment of any kind put by any court of the world. They seem to be capable of always devicing ways to escape prison just as easily as Zod would. Superman could have choked Zod's when he was holding him or just punched him into the ground. Well Lex seems to able to create Doomsday, so it's really not farfetched that they be able to recreate the atmosphere of Krypton (that the decision of the people on Earth not Superman).

So instead of ramming him with the car as any normal person would, with the front of the car, he chooses to ram him while he was drifting? Batman was just turning over the corner Superman got in the way and then he threaten him. Also if you can't do something legally, the first thing you do is go and do it ilegally? no it doesn't work like that, you search for another way. This is Superman acting illegally (I don't have a problem with that after all they are both vigilantes in their own way).

Again Batman has more motives than Superman just being a threat to him, that is just Batman's way to rationalize this conflict, but He says it Superman brought the war to them. This could mean a lot of things, main it's because of Zod's invation or it's an indication that Superman is the one that attacked Batman first (this one of those parts that we will have to wait and see). Also the law isn't really prepared for those cases and Superman isn't really a citizen of the United States (or whatever citizenship he has as Clark Kent) nor is he a citizen of any other country of the world. So he is illegal from the very beging.

The dream just shows that Batman is under the influence of Darkseid.

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#26 Posted by PapiNacho (3396 posts) - - Show Bio

My argument as to why Batman is going to win:

They made him the clear bad guy. We know that he's going have to suffer a moral defeat from Superman and accept him as a hero. To counterbalance that, he needs to win the physical fight or the entire movie will be a giant shit on the character. Does this make sense? To me it does, because Batman is about surpassing his limits and Superman is about making the right choices.

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#27 Posted by Black_Arrow (10282 posts) - - Show Bio

My argument as to why Batman is going to win:

They made him the clear bad guy. We know that he's going have to suffer a moral defeat from Superman and accept him as a hero. To counterbalance that, he needs to win the physical fight or the entire movie will be a giant shit on the character. Does this make sense? To me it does, because Batman is about surpassing his limits and Superman is about making the right choices.

This makes plenty of sense. I am not so sure about him being the "clear bad guy" but they will both learn from each other. Besides it was clearly said in one trailer "If man won't kill God, then the Devil will do it" so Batman wins but he doesn't kill Clark and they both learn reediming qualities of each other.

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#28 Posted by PapiNacho (3396 posts) - - Show Bio
@papinacho said:

My argument as to why Batman is going to win:

They made him the clear bad guy. We know that he's going have to suffer a moral defeat from Superman and accept him as a hero. To counterbalance that, he needs to win the physical fight or the entire movie will be a giant shit on the character. Does this make sense? To me it does, because Batman is about surpassing his limits and Superman is about making the right choices.

This makes plenty of sense. I am not so sure about him being the "clear bad guy" but they will both learn from each other. Besides it was clearly said in one trailer "If man won't kill God, then the Devil will do it" so Batman wins but he doesn't kill Clark and they both learn reediming qualities of each other.

Oh but he is:

http://www.empireonline.com/people/ben-affleck/batman-v-superman-exclusive-zack-snyder-asked-christopher-nolan-blessing/

This plus all the trailers were Batfleck has openly stated he wants to destroy Superman have me convinced that he is going to start this movie quite unhinged.

Anyways, there would be no point in having Batfleck state his intentions ti kill Superman is there won't be a later follow up scene were he has the chance and then doesn't.

On, the other hand Cav-El's victory is going to be Batfleck's redemption.

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#29 Posted by joshmightbe (27562 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm betting it'll come down to a draw, they want both heroes to appear to be on equal footing going in to the Justice League movie but they also want to make both look strong the only way to do that would be to A. Have Superman loose the fight but keep the moral victory or B. end it in a draw. See if Batman is just beaten, it'll be harder to sell him as being of any use alongside the super powered heroes in the JL movie but if they gave him a straight up win it'd steal Superman's thunder but if he won the battle by questionable means and then comes back to help Supes, or if they end on a draw, then they can both remain relatively untarnished.

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#30 Posted by darkdetective27 (7953 posts) - - Show Bio

@sesquipedalophobe: Well to be honest the trailers do reveal a lot about the film plus all the interviews help give insight into what will happen in the film. Id be really surprised if there were any surprises in the film at all after we all basically knew Doomsday was going to be in the film before the trailer revealed it.

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#31 Posted by BurningMartian (884 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000: Where did you see the running him down part? Clark straight up dropped out of the sky and totalled his car, no questions asked and pretty much told him to shut down his operation. Not to mention he confronted him in his own house as Clark Kent. Honestly, the trailer shows the whole point of the film is Superman being a massive hypocrite and enforcing his ideals on other 'cause he can.

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#32 Edited by stev0 (4 posts) - - Show Bio

Although it's fun to argue about who could win in this movie, I think the trailer alone makes it fairly clear that this fight will end in stalemate right before they are forced to team up and face off against Zod. The trailer indicates Bruce is this seething rage monster (more than normal); he has "the fever, the rage, the feeling of powerlessness that turns good men cruel." Sups is painted as a power drunk demigod. When watching the trailers, we have to remember that Superman is a character who helps humanity grow, to learn to defend itself. In the trailers we've seen, the people of Earth are drooling over the man from Krypton ("Most of the people of the world don't share your opinion, Mr. Wayne."). They even throw in Nazi references in case they think we're too daft to understand. So, I think we're going to see both of these characters at their worst. It looks like the writers are going to set this up as a story where neither of these dudes DESERVE a victory over the other because the fight itself stems from some very distasteful and irresponsible character traits.

So, coming from that perspective, here's what I think will happen: I'm guessing Lex will play a hand in orchestrating the fight between the two, in the hopes that maybe Bats will weaken Sups (or they'll weaken eachother) before releasing Doomzod. Probably 90 minutes into the movie they'll finally have their showdown. Sups will seem dominate at first, because it's just smart to lead with audience assumptions when storytelling (ie most people assume Superman is untouchable). Bats will probably lure him into some sort of cleverish trap and obtain the upper hand, and then Sups will regain control. And then bats. And the sups. And, you get the idea. And then there's going to be that moment where Bats busts out the Kryptonite (or some uber move) and starts laying into Sups. Just *thwack* after *smack* into the pretty boys face. Sups will have one knee down, barely holding himself up with his palm on the ground. He's still taking shots to the chin. *smack* He's tired. *punch* He's weak. *fart* He might not be able to finish this fight. Sidenote: all of this will be shot in slow-mo because, you know, Zack Snyder. Anyway, Kal will look up at Bruce with complete disbelief that a human, a simple human is beating down a god. Hell, we might even get a response to Bats "do you bleed" question, where we'll see a single drop of blood trickle from the Sungod's nose. You can hear the fanboys roar in the theater "ZOMG bats be shrekin stuperman!!!" And right at this point where Bruce has the clear upper hand, but not securely enough to declare victory, in comes "RAWR, it is I, Frankenzod, and I will keel both of you with my laaaaaaaazer beams." And so the wearied foes are forced to sideline their quarrels and go fight the cliche plot device, I mean Zod. But they're just so gosh darn tired. They can't take him. What will they ever do. And that's when Captain America's wife comes in for a well-timed laser block. And then Fish man, cuz, fuck it. And then after they beat Zod, Sups will be like "hey you punch pretty good," and Bruce will reluctantly be like "yea, well I guess you punch alright." And then then they'll both be like "hey you guys who haven't played a significant role in the movie, ya'll punch pretty good too." You wanna like form a group or something that's totally way cooler than the Avengers?" And then under-dressed lady will say, "you mean like...a league?" And then Sups and Bats will look at the camera, smile knowingly at the audience, freeze frame, cue upbeat song from the 70's, and yea, that will be EXACTLY how Batman V. Superman will go. I'm pretty stoked.

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#33 Posted by Chazz85 (5201 posts) - - Show Bio

So how much money do you have riding on this? :p

Personally Id say neither will win and the fight is merely a gimmick to get people in and get them excited for Justice League. It will be a sort of bait and switch. There's no way WB would let Superman or Batman win.

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#34 Edited by ashildr000 (132 posts) - - Show Bio

Now I want Batman to win just to see your ass in flames.

:)

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#35 Posted by buttersdaman000 (22862 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000 said:
@black_arrow said:
There are a lot of things we don't know yet, We will have to wait and see the movie, to fully both of their motives.

Now you're comparing the threat of Joker to the threat of Zod. That's a pretty blatant false equivalency. For one, we have enough reason to believe Batman can manhandle Joker in a fight with ease. He has the luxury of knowing that he can put Joker down every time he gets up. That's not the same with Superman and Zod. If you rewatch the fight you'll see Zod was in control the whole time until Superman finally overpowered him in their decent towards earth. Zod was his superior in combat in every way and nothing from their fight shows he could have just "knocked him out". Secondly, Joker doesn't present even a fraction of the danger Zod presented to earth. Zod was very clear in his plans to exterminate all life and he told Superman the only way he was gonna stop him was to kill him. Do you really think Zod would just stand trial and accept whatever punishment an inferior race (from his PoV) dished out?? C'mon....and before you mention restraints, there was no way earth had that kind of technology. Also, no, Superman did not drive Zod into any building and it doesn't even matter because Metropolis was evacuated by that time.

From what we know? No, it isn't the same thing. All we know right now is that Superman first tried to take down the bat as a reporter which is perfectly legal. Next, all we know is that he threatened him to hang up the bat mantle. A little sketchy, but not really a criminal act. And IDK if you've seen the tv spot but Batman is the one who rammed Superman with his car, causing it to spin out of control which leads to Superman ripping open the doors and threatening him to stop....as far as we know, it's Batman who starts the physical confrontations. And we know Batman is the one who is actively trying to take out Superman with force because of the threat he MIGHT be. So again, it's a false equivalency to compare the two situations.

Also, it's innocent until proven guilty not the other way around. Batman does has his motive but you're acting like his motives are legally justified whereas Superman's aren't when really Batman is in 100% ILLEGAL vigilante mode and Superman is more or less acting within the law.

Also, dreams aren't excuses to attack people.

I do agree with the bolded though

The Joker was just an example because he usually has hostages that he threatens to kill, You could change the Joker for Bane in that scenario and it would be the same, Batman wouldn't kill them. The threat of the Joker while it may not seem as big as Zod, It's still pretty big, the Joker has got nukes on his hand in the past, He is more dangerous than any terrorist organization that we know of. The Joker nor most of Batman's enemies would never accept any judgment of any kind put by any court of the world. They seem to be capable of always devicing ways to escape prison just as easily as Zod would. Superman could have choked Zod's when he was holding him or just punched him into the ground. Well Lex seems to able to create Doomsday, so it's really not farfetched that they be able to recreate the atmosphere of Krypton (that the decision of the people on Earth not Superman).

So instead of ramming him with the car as any normal person would, with the front of the car, he chooses to ram him while he was drifting? Batman was just turning over the corner Superman got in the way and then he threaten him. Also if you can't do something legally, the first thing you do is go and do it ilegally? no it doesn't work like that, you search for another way. This is Superman acting illegally (I don't have a problem with that after all they are both vigilantes in their own way).

Again Batman has more motives than Superman just being a threat to him, that is just Batman's way to rationalize this conflict, but He says it Superman brought the war to them. This could mean a lot of things, main it's because of Zod's invation or it's an indication that Superman is the one that attacked Batman first (this one of those parts that we will have to wait and see). Also the law isn't really prepared for those cases and Superman isn't really a citizen of the United States (or whatever citizenship he has as Clark Kent) nor is he a citizen of any other country of the world. So he is illegal from the very beging.

The dream just shows that Batman is under the influence of Darkseid.

No, it's still not the same. It might not be as extremely skewed in Batman's favor as him vs Joker, but still, he has roughly even shot against Bane. It wasn't the same for Superman vs Zod at all. And since when was Bane even confirmed for the DCEU?? Also, proof Joker has done any of the things you brought up in the DCEU?? And it doesn't matter if Joker or any of Batmans villains accept the judgment because the earth has the technology to force it on them i.e THE SUICIDE SQUAD. There was no prison to hold Zod and again, you're acting like Superman was in control of that fight....he wasn't. And when do you think the human population would have time to come up with this prep as Zod is burning cities down by the hour???

It seems like you're giving the benefit of the doubt to Batman an awful lot. Look, here's the TV spot

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUN0F5wKbGE

Superman was standing planted on the ground and Batman went straight for him Whether he did it head on or in a drift is irrelevant. Why are you harping on this?? It's not like Superman told Batman he was going to kill him. He didn't even threaten bodily harm! He did nothing illegal in telling him to hang up his cowl. And still even if you refuse to see it legally and objectively, you're ignore the fact that all your point can be placed on Batman 10 fold.

I don't care what his motives are. The point is he's trying to take out Superman knowing that there's a huge chance he might not be the threat he perceives he is. That's clearly shown in the trailers. Alfred even tells him to stop being a crazy person.

So now you play the illegal immigrant card like it matters?? C'mon....it's irrelevant.

And? Proof Darksied is pushing him to take out Superman??

@buttersdaman000: Where did you see the running him down part? Clark straight up dropped out of the sky and totalled his car, no questions asked and pretty much told him to shut down his operation. Not to mention he confronted him in his own house as Clark Kent. Honestly, the trailer shows the whole point of the film is Superman being a massive hypocrite and enforcing his ideals on other 'cause he can.

NOPE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUN0F5wKbGE

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#36 Edited by PapiNacho (3396 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000: Not that I disagree about Bruce trying to straight up murder Superman, but if you take a good look at the video Batman makes a turn right before he crashes into Superman. There's no way that Batman could have seen Superman from around the corner. Thus what actually happened in that In that scene is that Batman was driving away and Superman super-speeded in front of his car. Bruce then had to do a last minute turn. Also, If you actually pause it, you see Superman's leg extending and actually gently nudging the Batmobile; which means Bruce did react in time, but Clark wanted to take him out then and there in order to presumably threaten him.

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#37 Posted by buttersdaman000 (22862 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000: Not that I disagree about Bruce trying to straight up murder Superman, but if you take a good look at the video Batman makes a turn right before he crashes into Superman. There's no way, Batman could have seen him from around the corner. In that particular scene Batman was driving away and Superman super-speeded in front of his car so Bruce had to do a last minute turn. Also, If you actually pause it, you see Superman's leg extending and actually gently nudging the Batmobile; which means Bruce did react in time, but Clark wanted to take him out then and there in order to presumably threaten him.

I think you're right about Superman giving the batmobile a light kick but it still doesn't really change anything. I don't see where you get Superman speeding in front of the car since the video just shows Superman standing there. At best he kicked it away because Batman was trying to run him over. At worst, if it does turn out he sped in front of the car on purpose, he's "guilty" of assaulting a violent vigilante lol

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#38 Edited by PapiNacho (3396 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000: Superman is already standing there, because he flew or ran there; presumably at super speed (my assumption based on the events). Why do I think Superman sped in front of the car?

1. Batman was already driving fast before turning and could not have seen Clark standing there. This indicates that he was either running away or pursuing something. We don't see anyone else other than Superman in front of him and why would Superman run away from Batman?

2. Batman turns when he actually sees Clark standing there; if he wanted to crash into him (and hurt him) he would have kept the in a straight line to maximize speed. You could say he did it to preserve his on life, but if he was worried aobut that why try to run him over in the first place?

Think about it; why would Batman, who was present at the battle of Metropolis, think that Superman could even be run over by a car?

Edit -

I think you're right about Superman giving the batmobile a light kick but it still doesn't really change anything. I don't see where you get Superman speeding in front of the car since the video just shows Superman standing there. At best he kicked it away because Batman was trying to run him over. At worst, if it does turn out he sped in front of the car on purpose, he's "guilty" of assaulting a violent vigilante lol

I'm not saying Supes is morally wrong here; I'm just saying Batman wasn't trying to murder him in this particular situation. Judging from the trailers and interviews however, he definitely will later.

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#39 Edited by buttersdaman000 (22862 posts) - - Show Bio

@papinacho said:

@buttersdaman000: Superman is already standing there, because he flew or ran there; presumably at super speed (my assumption based on the events). Why do I think Superman sped in front of the car?

1. Batman was already driving fast before turning and could not have seen Clark standing there. This indicates that he was either running away or pursuing something. We don't see anyone else other than Superman in front of him and why would Superman run away from Batman?

2. Batman turns when he actually sees Clark standing there; if he wanted to crash into him (and hurt him) he would have kept the in a straight line to maximize speed. You could say he did it to preserve his on life, but if he was worried aobut that why try to run him over in the first place?

Think about it; why would Batman, who was present at the battle of Metropolis, think that Superman could even be run over by a car?

Good points

But, still, we don't know whether he sped in from of his car or not. Going off your first point, to me it looks like Superman was simply waiting for Batman to arrive after a chase scene. Batman rounded the corner in pursuit and just happened to be unlucky enough to drive right into Superman who responded with a light kick.

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#40 Edited by ScouterV (7764 posts) - - Show Bio

Take your jokerized Supermen and your Kryptonite gum and get out of here.

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#41 Posted by SaintWildcard (21844 posts) - - Show Bio

So how much money do you have riding on this? :p

About 100 bucks.

I'm not even sure what Batman's goal is.

be a ginormous douche.

Even tho Supermans beatdown is coming!....It will more than likely end as somekind of stalemate, in some form or another (thank you plot :-|).

Poor fool. Repent your sinful ways and you will be spared from having thine neck snapped

@saintwildcard: This is an excellently written article, but I don't quite grasp the underdog concept. It is possibly my fault, but I do not understand what you are going it in regards to the underdog angle. How does Batman being immoral and Superman being the good doing being have anything to do with which of the two has more chance of winning?

Overall, really good write up but I would like an explanation.

- TAS

Because it gives Batman a reason to win. It's story telling 101, it's how you build up to a climax by letting the rightful character win and the resolution to feel good. It makes us want to root for him. Anytime Batman lacks that, he looses. In stories like Man of Steel (the book), he goes after Superman with Kryptonite (for some reason) and looses. But in a story like TDKR, he was meant to win because he was being oppressed.

You guys are getting an awful lot from a few trailers.

As well from interviews and a good understanding of story and knowledge of similar scenarios in the comics.

I'm betting it'll come down to a draw, they want both heroes to appear to be on equal footing going in to the Justice League movie but they also want to make both look strong the only way to do that would be to A. Have Superman loose the fight but keep the moral victory or B. end it in a draw. See if Batman is just beaten, it'll be harder to sell him as being of any use alongside the super powered heroes in the JL movie but if they gave him a straight up win it'd steal Superman's thunder but if he won the battle by questionable means and then comes back to help Supes, or if they end on a draw, then they can both remain relatively untarnished.

I honestly get a feeling that at some point Snyder is going to announce that there will be a winner in this movie. And I think in trying to be different from Marvel, they aren't going for a tie like they did in Avengers. Besides, if people can't understand that Batman's role in the JL isn't the muscle, they need a reality check. ANd it's not like this movie is marketed towards kids anyway.

Umm.. In the latest teaser, Clark pretty much steps into Bruce's turf without provocation, rips up his ride and leaves after telling Wayne to basically telling him to hang up his cape or he's in for a whooping. If that doesn't consolidate Batman's underdog status, I dont know what will.

That doesn't merit Superman getting killed. And he was provoked, he sees Bruce's methods as too abusive and without mercy. Remember that Clark tried to reasons with the genocidal general and begged him to stop. Batman is not giving people chances and has gotten a lot tougher on crime after Jason's death and the MoS fight. Not sure if Snyder and Co feel this way, but the articles with their interviews I've read pretty much call Batman the "bad guy". Unlike in The Animated Series, it's not that Superman is calling him out for being a vigilante, but that he doesn't agree with his methods which is less hypocritical.

My argument as to why Batman is going to win:

They made him the clear bad guy. We know that he's going have to suffer a moral defeat from Superman and accept him as a hero. To counterbalance that, he needs to win the physical fight or the entire movie will be a giant shit on the character. Does this make sense? To me it does, because Batman is about surpassing his limits and Superman is about making the right choices.

Batman's role is not to be able to go toe to toe with Superman, it never has been. And if he could take down Superman, does that mean he could go and fight Darkseid and Brainiac as well? So this notion that to be able to beat Superman to prove himself is ridiculous. But I did theorize that if Batman was to win it would have to be followed with a moment that makes Bruce realize he's a dick and wrong. Or Clark's let's Bruce wail on him to prove a point, which would still be a win for Superman.

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#43 Posted by sesquipedalophobe (5417 posts) - - Show Bio
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#44 Posted by darkdetective27 (7953 posts) - - Show Bio

@saintwildcard: I really hope you can afford to lose about a 100 bucks. :p

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#45 Posted by SaintWildcard (21844 posts) - - Show Bio

The purpose of Batman winning is that he's human. It's kind of like regular people have no business beating the Terminator or The Predator, or Darth Vader etc....but in the movies they always do. People like that, makes us feel we can overcome odds and all that.

Difference is, all of those have proper underdogs to fill the role. Guys who have all the right motivations to beat the bad guys. Batman has none of that and planning on killing a guy who is doing his best to help the world. Bruce fits the Underdog bill like Donald Trump fits the Presidential bill.

@slayz said:

You're right, it would make no sense. What would be the logic behind it?

"Yeah, Superman! I just kicked your ass! Now don't turn evil on us!"

"But I never was..."

Yeah, pretty dumb. But Bruce doesn't just want to beat Superman, he wants to kill him.

Batman will win the fight but he'll lose something else in the process. Batman HAS to win to show that Superman CAN be beaten and that's all there would be to his victory.

That logic is as sound as saying a kung fu master has to loose to a baby to prove he can be beaten. We know Superman can be beaten and there will be villains who can give him a hard time and the team will have to help. I mean, freakin Doomsday is most likely going to show us that in this movie. We don't need to prove that point twice in this movie.

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#46 Posted by Cream_God (15519 posts) - - Show Bio
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#47 Posted by SaintWildcard (21844 posts) - - Show Bio
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#48 Posted by MAZAHS117 (12747 posts) - - Show Bio

@saintwildcard: Lol! My grandmama told me "False Gods jump up ta get beatdown". Tell your Boy Scout to watch his back in these streets. ;-P

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#49 Posted by deactivated-57dd84d2af8d3 (615 posts) - - Show Bio

Why Batman can't win: DC doesn't want to devalue either of these two heroes. Batman and Superman will learn from each other and finally be heroes worthy of the Justice League. No winner, no brainer.

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#50 Edited by The Impersonator (8485 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, I don't see any winner or loser in the upcoming movie. But there's no denial that Batman can't win.